For what it’s worth, I would 100% use it. I know other young people in Rochester would too. Driving to Toronto is a huge hassle and Amtrak is not much better.
Don’t have to have that problem if you stay in downtown, other than getting to the hotel/parking garage. Park the car in a parking garage and walk everywhere so you don’t deal with traffic and parking. That’s what I’ve done every time I’ve gone
Cool? Never said it was impossible, just a hassle in my opinion. I’d enjoy the option of a ferry.
For day trips the ferry would make more sense. It’s $40 for a ticket and 2.5 hour trip vs a tank of gas, 3-5 hours of driving, and paying for parking. Again, not really worth it to me unless I plan on spending a couple days there. And even then I still would probably take the ferry. I don’t see the point in driving if I had other options. You don’t need a car to enjoy Toronto. My car would just be a useless metal box for most of my trip. Ferry replaces that. I’d also take a faster rail route. Or both. Love having options.
That’s awful.
I finally decided etr 407 if it’s anything close to rush hour. I got a transponder for my rate drives up there. The QEW around rush hour (or normal hours!) is a total load of shit.
It’s not *the biggest* hassle. Just a medium hassle that limits my time. I’d rather be reading a book or something while I commute. You’ve got a serious case of car brain my guy. If you wouldn’t use the ferry that’s cool. Just don’t get why you’re here lmao.
So, from a business perspective, I have a bunch of questions.
1) what wages are assumed in your model? Based on what I’m seeing, it seems like a super small operation (maybe 2 part time captains and a couple workers). What about IT and customer support, ticketing resources, security, management, marketing, repair and cleaning crew, etc?
2) your “you could pay off a boat in 5-10 years” seems to not mesh with your expected profit. Less than $200k profit per year before boat payments. What about repairs, improvements, etc?
3) net of the things above, why would someone invest in this since the margins (after boat payments) would be next to $0?
Overall, I would like it too, but this model seems to be missing a lot and *still* is just slightly profitable.
Maybe they should pivot to a B2B model, primarily carry retail and other goods back and forth for a cheaper and larger scale than trucks or cargo trains, this becomes the profitable side of things and so B2C consumer trips for brand loyalty and publicity from the local population for a small loss. Almost like AWS to Amazon Marketplace
This is what killed the first one. They thought they would be able to do this but transporting goods international is more complicated than they expected. It’s still an international crossing.
This is probably the best reply yet and the fact that OP hasn’t responded to it certainly says something about how much thought he put into it. His figures are very basic napkin math and is missing a ton of extra necessary costs and this is assuming everything goes perfectly and costs aren’t ballooned like crazy as problems and corruption occur which is guaranteed to happen.
Hey I work *at a job* and will answer when I have time to sit down and look at it. Edit: When I looked at it the first time I was confused about point #2 as the net profit under 200k in my sheet is after boat payments not before.
1. Yes, the point is to be leaner than the original ferry. I don’t know how much a sailor costs. Depending on the size of the boat, it might not need more than that.
2. Please double check that figure, my net is after boat payments in the spreadsheet.
3. I guess it’s relative. I don’t come from a business family (or even a white collar family) so the money looks good to me. I agree there will be unexpected expenses and needs for repairs, and it’s not exactly a low risk investment like a sandwich shop which could realistically net the same profits with a business loan.
The point of posting this here was to get exactly this kind of feedback and to see how right/wrong I am about estimates over costs and sales. If you or I can justify higher sales and plug them into the right cells, the net figures will change. This is how Excel works.
Keep in mind that probably 90% of your business will be one-way. You will need your ticket prices and sales volume to cover the costs of there and back. Virtually no one in Toronto has the most remote interest in exploring Rochester.
Shopping isn't even a blip. Go to Toronto, and you are a couple of blocks from center city, come to Rochester you get Abbots and the shops at the port. The outlet mall is still over an hour away. Or maybe the 'experience' of Greece-Ridge. City of Toronto knew there was no draw here, that's why they didn't invest more than a minimal amount in a port on their side.
I always thought commercial was the proper target coming Canada to US. Have all the customs and immigration stuff onboard so people can avoid any backups on the bridges. But even then, the bridges aren't bad for commercial trucks. Any Ferry that big won't fit in the port anyway.
One other flaw is the lack of direct access to 390. They should be able to disembark, leave the parking lot, and be on the expressway in less than 2 minutes.
Yeah the only way it would work would be to turn the port into a huge shopping centre with family friendly activities. Build a duty free mall, outlet mall, upscale brands, have lots of events at the park, maybe build a performing center and get a few big artists to play there. Maybe build a small theme park and tourist trap museums. Build a US post office that encourages Canadians to open PO Boxes so they can get stuff shipped to them without international shipping concerns, etc. The area needs to have a lot to offer and would need to be completely gentrified and lots of land taken over for this purpose which makes it completely infeasible, but it’d certainly encourage tourism and locals would also be able to take advantage.
Where would this shopping be? What does Rochester have that Toronto doesn't?
This is the sort of thing people talked them selves into the first time. There is absolutely no reason for someone from Toronto to take a ferry to Charlotte.
Honestly this is the main point. What does Rochester have that Toronto does not other than plates, abbots, and I guess another entry point to the US (even then I don’t think we have car rentals there either) this is a lose lose for tourism from a Toronto resident - as there’s nothing here that would warrant a Rochester visit from Toronto other than the returning residents
Edit: I guess car rentals may not be a concern, I wasn’t here for the original ferry
I'm genuinely blown away that we're even discussing this again. Some folks just can't seem to fathom that their idea isn't good, regardless of how much evidence there is to the contrary, I suppose.
Apologies… I’m out running errands and didn’t have a chance to look at the spreadsheet. How long is the trip on the ferries you’re looking at? I know another issue is that the total time of the last ferry wasn’t a huge improvement over just driving there.
I think the lack of interest on the Canadian side would be a big issue. Even more crucially, if Canadians were genuinely interested in coming to Rochester, traveling from Charlotte alone would be a huge issue. In some ways, Rochester was more prepared at the beginning of the 20th century with its network of trolleys, trains, and other forms of rail. At one point, they even had a ferry from Charlotte to Seabreeze if I remember correctly.
If they don’t have cars / rent cars / use affordable Ubers, they’re not going to get far. Had the 1.0 version worked, maybe we would have seen a redevelopment, but the Charlotte / High Falls revamps now look like money holes.
A lot of development seems to be moving away from the lake (and city) and more toward the Finger Lakes. Fairport, Canandaigua, and Victor seem to be expanding, but in ways that sequester them from “big scary Rochester.”
Rochester was a massively popular destination city in the late 1800s-early 1900s and Charlotte was like a western NY version of Atlantic City. Many houses up along the lake were originally cottages for travelers. There were amusement parks, boating and swimming, and lots of outdoor concerts by the likes of John Philip Sousa and other popular band leaders. Many travelers arrived here via the Erie Canal and joined locals on the trolley up Lake Avenue to get to the resort areas. Ship travel on the lake was also available, albeit of mixed quality, and many of those types of travelers ended up going to Sodus Point. What made it work was the fact travel was slow and costly. Most visitors came from NY State and often arrived via a canal boat on the Erie Canal. As transportation improved, people could go further and found even larger venues in other cities. By the early 1900s, Charlotte became a problem child. There were dozens of houses of ill repute, gambling, out of control saloons, and even stores popping up selling “obscene postcards.” The “family” days were over and Charlotte’s ability to maintain and grow tourism would depend on cleaning up the place. At the time, Charlotte only had a handful of hired sheriff’s deputies who worked during the summer. The city of Rochester would eventually annex Charlotte but it was too late. The Great Depression doomed the resort era and it never recovered.
This was a misnomer back then and still is. The argument that people from Toronto won’t come to this area is just wrong. Do people that live in NYC never leave? Of course not. The Finger Lakes, Hudson Valley, Vermont, etc are filled with people wanting to get out of the city for a weekend or whatever. If you give people a reason and make it easy for them, they’ll explore.
Rochester has plenty of events that warrant a trip down. What would be needed is someone to handle the logistics of packages. By that I mean you need local hotels, museums and restaurants to participate in package deals. I.e. ferry tix + strong museum tix + 2 nights in hotel + $x at whatever restaurant.
Or jazz fest passes + dinner + hotel. Get the Eastman house involved. Vineyards. We’re sitting on top of one of the premier wine regions in the US. Comes down to the logistics of getting people from point A to point B. The major disadvantage is the city’s proximity to the lake. If you can figure out transportation its a winner.
I’m not saying it would be 50-50. I think 70-30 is prob the balance. But the fact is, the original ferry had ridership of over 45k in one of its last months. That’s not just 45k Rochestarians. There were more Canadians on it than the conventional wisdom said. The idea has merit. The execution was terrible.
As someone who rode the previous ferry twice, I can share a few of my thoughts as a consumer. One trip was a girls day trip at full price and the ferry was only 1/3 full. The 2nd trip they offered a kids ride free day and it was packed in both directions. Both times it was a blast, not just to go to Toronto but also, riding a boat across the Lake was an amazing experience. I think the boat was big and bougie, more so than it needed to be. A smaller, more basic vessel would be fine. Light snacks, coffee and alcoholic bevs are a must. You're right that theatres (there were 2) are probably not needed. I think you'll find more NY ers who will go to Toronto for the day, and more Canadians who'll visit NY for a longer amount of time, bringing there cars onto the boat to travel throughout the area. With the right marketing, some promotional offers, etc., it would be a great addition to Rochester.
I think the ferry aspect, if you’re planning on taking cars, makes this a tough go. How about a passenger ferry only? Smaller, cheaper and easier to fill with paying customers.
I would sure as heck use it. Toronto is 5 hours by Amtrak or bus and you'd have to get off at Niagara. Driving is a pain due to Toronto traffic.
Canadian families would love Strong Museum of Play, which is unique to the Rochester area, just needs to get the word out there.
not sure how feasible i really consider it, but man subjectively i'd love for it to happen considering driving in qew + toronto traffic is... an experience, and the buses/trains can be kinda unreliable too (the former also due to traffic)
I think this could work but only if Rochester develops Charlotte into a true beach resort type destination.
Wouldn’t be too hard. Just add a board walk, improve walkability and attract infill so it doesn’t feel so suburban.
You’d definitely have Canadians come down for the weekend.
Rochester has too short and too mild of a summer for them to ever really truly revitalize the Charlotte area into anything close to resembling a "resort-type destination". You have to get so many separate companies on board and believe in the project for it to even have a small chance. Then if it didn't work you'd see a bunch of those same companies rush out of the area and leave an empty void. I would love to see that area gussied up but I don't believe it will ever happen. I'll just be happy if they do a good job maintaining what is currently there.
You have to have great economic incentive to even attempt a project like that and unfortunately I don't think lake Ontario is enough of a novelty. Like many people have posted about the Fast Ferry there is nothing in that immediate area that would warrant people to come, let alone stay for any duration. If they decide to turn it into waterfront resorts you really need to build out the entire area and get commitment from a great number of companies all betting that it's going to work out in their favor. It needs to be an up and coming area not one that has its best days behind it.
I don’t think you need much.
Dunkirk has been doing a great job at increasing tourism just by cleaning up their pier and by attracting a new hotel.
No reason why Rochester can’t do the same. People like being by water period.
Rochester's GDP hasn't even grown half a percent since the days of the fast Ferry (2004 time frame). That would tell any investor or developer not to attempt the same fate again. Don't get me wrong I think it would be lovely but I also think it's a pipe dream. So much more has to happen in and around the city of Rochester or really the region for that matter before Charlotte resort development could even be considered.
https://www.opendatanetwork.com/entity/310M200US40380/Rochester_Metro_Area_NY/economy.gdp.per_capita_gdp?year=2017
If you look at the people coming to Charlotte it is the wrong bunch for any businesses to be making much money off of them
They already built it and they already came (to fight, rob, stab and shoot at each other). Charlotte is nice but it's not a beach I would take my family to on a hot summer day thanks to the behavior that occurs down there unless we were in the mood to watch a bunch of people brawling
Rochester is also in the midst of a housing crisis, redeveloping for tourism is the last thing we should be considering. Tourism brings in money but also reduces housing stock (look at what Airbnb has done to other travel destinations) and useful retail for residents.
The problem was and still is that there aren't enough people in Rochester to keep it alive. You need people to use it on both sides of the lake, and unsurprisingly, people who live in Toronto have no reason to come to a much smaller city and vastly less cosmopolitan city. We have nothing that they don't.
Bingo! Richester has things WE like to go to...RPO, RBTL...Strong Museum...MAG...umm...yeah that's about it. Point us, anything we have, Toronto has bigger and better. They have MLB, NBA, NHL, AHL, and Major League Soccer teams...their zoo is magnitudes better...all a ferry accomplishes is U.S. dollars supporting Canadian enterprises.
I think one thing to consider is the journey is longer but it’s zero hassle. What makes a trip like this zero hassle? Beverages, snacks or small sandwiches, chargers, other comforts. The price can be more if you can give the guests exactly what they want. That’s going to have to be worked out fully in the first few months of operation with heavy surveys.
I took the ferry several/multiple times… there were a LOT of Canadian families coming over for big youth soccer tournaments… there are reasons to come here that aren’t shopping/Finger Lakes. Also IIRC one of the original failings of the business model was that the vessel was flagged in the Bahamas, and they couldn’t carry US mail as a result. Again my recollection but this along with freight was the majority of the business case, not passengers. I’m sure you can fact-check this in the original reporting around this time.
Huh I was expecting those operating expenses to be way bigger. Like sure these are in many ways just back of napkin estimations but I suppose when I think about FF as the “once in a generation” endeavor akin to the Rochester subway, I suppose I had some astronomical figures in mind 🤷♂️
I think of a couple of ways this could be successful is, if it's a part of a larger inclusive tourism package or it is primarily a goods shipping ferry that includes Automobile transport and a small amount of "guest rooms" (see Japanese ferry companies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ferry_operators_in_Japan or for video examples https://youtube.com/@SoloTravelJapan?si=ZcAS20kNjw8bIctS ).
For the tour group side of things, I'm seeing something like a 1, 2, and/or 3 day package that includes transportation, activities, some meals and accommodations.
Examples:
From the Canadian point of view
1 day package with round trip ferry from Toronto
Bus to Strong, Eastman, Memorial Art Gallery, Canadaigua, Outlet Mall, and so on.
2 day package with all of the above plus
An overnight stay in hotel/Airbnb in the Finger lakes wine Country and a winery/brewery/distillery tour.
Dinner at a nice local restaurant.
3 day package with all of the above plus
An overnight stay in Niagara falls (Canadian side because it's "nicer")
2 dinners at nice restaurants
From the NY point of view
1 day package with round trip ferry from Rochester
Bus to CN Tower, Royal Botanical Gardens, Ikea, Royal Ontario Museum, and so on.
2 day package with all of the above plus transport to Niagara Falls
An overnight stay on the Canadian side.
And Dinner at a nice restaurant.
3 day package with all of the above plus
Transportation to Montreal
An overnight stay
2 dinners at nice restaurants.
Bonus points:
If you could size the ships such that you could port in the Niagara and 1000 islands areas to do more of the transport by boat than bus.
Create special itineraries for shows and events in and around the major cities. I'm sure there are Bills fans in Canada for instance or music acts that have shows in Toronto but skip upstate NY otherwise.
Literally everyone I know would use it. And I'd use it even more b/c my bf and I are long distance between Rochester and Toronto. The commute is SO irritating, particularly because we know there COULD be a direct ferry.
I believe there are a few companies starting to build electric Ferrys. Probably a more expensive purchase up front but the maintenance would be minimal and long-term energy costs would be far cheaper than an internal combustion version.
I know it’s not what you want to be hear, but I truly believe this would be viable over in my new residence (Youngstown, NY). For 1, we can see Toronto from our shore so it’s much closer. 2, lots of Canadians live in Niagara county, so there might be more general traffic from friends and family? 3 - loads of Canadians come to shop at Niagara Falls outlets, galleria, etc. already. So much so that it surprised me, sometimes I might see a parking lot half full of Ontario license plates. 4 - the mighty Niagara river is already a port and ready to go.
My understanding is Youngstown had some moderately successful ferries in the past to Canada. I think if a fast ferry was to be viable, it would need to be here and not rochester just to support two way traffic.
Once you get to the port in Toronto you still need to get a taxi or Uber. Makes no economic sense for the consumer. Every product should start with solving a known or unknown consumer need
With that logic nobody would fly to most US cities. Regardless, there are streetcar/train stops all along the harbor coast, so you don’t need to call an uber or a taxi right away.
The logic is being applied between two very drivable cities not one that requires a flight. Know your consumer. It is not a business person route it is a consumer route. Good luck finding an investor.
You can drive between Boston and Cape Cod but they still provide a ferry. If I drove to Toronto, I’d be paying three times the cost in gas and parking than the fare in this model. I’m the consumer. And I’m not trying to run this, I made the pro-forma to float the idea and get someone else to.
Unless you gonna pay for that shit out of pocket you can go fuck yourself, it was a novelty at best when it happened, at worst it was a scam to build a Saudi billionaire a yacht on the cheap, it was a terrible idea then, it's a terrible idea now.
For what it’s worth, I would 100% use it. I know other young people in Rochester would too. Driving to Toronto is a huge hassle and Amtrak is not much better.
For what it’s worth, I know at least 20 additional people who would use it!
I have been talking about the fast ferry coming back nonstop. If we got one, I would never be here on the weekends
How is driving to Toronto a huge hassle when it’s 3 hours away? It’s an easy drive
Two words. Traffic and parking. The drive itself isn’t terrible, but I’d rather be doing other things with my time.
Don’t have to have that problem if you stay in downtown, other than getting to the hotel/parking garage. Park the car in a parking garage and walk everywhere so you don’t deal with traffic and parking. That’s what I’ve done every time I’ve gone
Cool? Never said it was impossible, just a hassle in my opinion. I’d enjoy the option of a ferry. For day trips the ferry would make more sense. It’s $40 for a ticket and 2.5 hour trip vs a tank of gas, 3-5 hours of driving, and paying for parking. Again, not really worth it to me unless I plan on spending a couple days there. And even then I still would probably take the ferry. I don’t see the point in driving if I had other options. You don’t need a car to enjoy Toronto. My car would just be a useless metal box for most of my trip. Ferry replaces that. I’d also take a faster rail route. Or both. Love having options.
Yep. And I imagine for a number of people the possibility of bringing bikes on the ferry would be nice, too.
Took me 5.5 hours recently getting home from there when an accident shut down 4 out of 6 lanes. Took 90 min to go 4 miles
Exactly. Would much rather ride the ferry.
That’s awful. I finally decided etr 407 if it’s anything close to rush hour. I got a transponder for my rate drives up there. The QEW around rush hour (or normal hours!) is a total load of shit.
We've used it a couple times but never gotten billed. That kinda freaks me out so I've been hesitating to go back on it
That could literally happen with any trip no matter if it’s a 10 minute drive or 10 hour drive😂
Ok? Why do you care so much if other people would prefer a different mode of transportation? Weird.
Sorry not just a hassle to you but a “huge” hassle lmao
The car brain continues. I’ve made the drive and it was ugly and unimpressive. 🥱
Never said I cared did I? Just find it funny that a not even 3 hour drive like this is such a hassle to you😂
It’s not *the biggest* hassle. Just a medium hassle that limits my time. I’d rather be reading a book or something while I commute. You’ve got a serious case of car brain my guy. If you wouldn’t use the ferry that’s cool. Just don’t get why you’re here lmao.
Remember that it’s only “MPG” for half of the trip!
So, from a business perspective, I have a bunch of questions. 1) what wages are assumed in your model? Based on what I’m seeing, it seems like a super small operation (maybe 2 part time captains and a couple workers). What about IT and customer support, ticketing resources, security, management, marketing, repair and cleaning crew, etc? 2) your “you could pay off a boat in 5-10 years” seems to not mesh with your expected profit. Less than $200k profit per year before boat payments. What about repairs, improvements, etc? 3) net of the things above, why would someone invest in this since the margins (after boat payments) would be next to $0? Overall, I would like it too, but this model seems to be missing a lot and *still* is just slightly profitable.
Maybe they should pivot to a B2B model, primarily carry retail and other goods back and forth for a cheaper and larger scale than trucks or cargo trains, this becomes the profitable side of things and so B2C consumer trips for brand loyalty and publicity from the local population for a small loss. Almost like AWS to Amazon Marketplace
This is what killed the first one. They thought they would be able to do this but transporting goods international is more complicated than they expected. It’s still an international crossing.
This is probably the best reply yet and the fact that OP hasn’t responded to it certainly says something about how much thought he put into it. His figures are very basic napkin math and is missing a ton of extra necessary costs and this is assuming everything goes perfectly and costs aren’t ballooned like crazy as problems and corruption occur which is guaranteed to happen.
Hey I work *at a job* and will answer when I have time to sit down and look at it. Edit: When I looked at it the first time I was confused about point #2 as the net profit under 200k in my sheet is after boat payments not before.
1. Yes, the point is to be leaner than the original ferry. I don’t know how much a sailor costs. Depending on the size of the boat, it might not need more than that. 2. Please double check that figure, my net is after boat payments in the spreadsheet. 3. I guess it’s relative. I don’t come from a business family (or even a white collar family) so the money looks good to me. I agree there will be unexpected expenses and needs for repairs, and it’s not exactly a low risk investment like a sandwich shop which could realistically net the same profits with a business loan. The point of posting this here was to get exactly this kind of feedback and to see how right/wrong I am about estimates over costs and sales. If you or I can justify higher sales and plug them into the right cells, the net figures will change. This is how Excel works.
Keep in mind that probably 90% of your business will be one-way. You will need your ticket prices and sales volume to cover the costs of there and back. Virtually no one in Toronto has the most remote interest in exploring Rochester.
They never go back home?
Would you?
Well, it's where I keep all my stuff
There’s often Canadian interest for shopping in the US. I agree it will be imbalanced.
Shopping isn't even a blip. Go to Toronto, and you are a couple of blocks from center city, come to Rochester you get Abbots and the shops at the port. The outlet mall is still over an hour away. Or maybe the 'experience' of Greece-Ridge. City of Toronto knew there was no draw here, that's why they didn't invest more than a minimal amount in a port on their side. I always thought commercial was the proper target coming Canada to US. Have all the customs and immigration stuff onboard so people can avoid any backups on the bridges. But even then, the bridges aren't bad for commercial trucks. Any Ferry that big won't fit in the port anyway. One other flaw is the lack of direct access to 390. They should be able to disembark, leave the parking lot, and be on the expressway in less than 2 minutes.
Roving bands of 13 year old Canadians are itching at the thought of being able to brawl in the Greece-Ridge thunderdome.
Also, Buffalo has the Galleria
Turn the railroad into a 2-mile parkway/390 entrance ramp
Yeah the only way it would work would be to turn the port into a huge shopping centre with family friendly activities. Build a duty free mall, outlet mall, upscale brands, have lots of events at the park, maybe build a performing center and get a few big artists to play there. Maybe build a small theme park and tourist trap museums. Build a US post office that encourages Canadians to open PO Boxes so they can get stuff shipped to them without international shipping concerns, etc. The area needs to have a lot to offer and would need to be completely gentrified and lots of land taken over for this purpose which makes it completely infeasible, but it’d certainly encourage tourism and locals would also be able to take advantage.
That's my point. Just adding a ferry isn't going to do it. There's nothing on this side.
Where would this shopping be? What does Rochester have that Toronto doesn't? This is the sort of thing people talked them selves into the first time. There is absolutely no reason for someone from Toronto to take a ferry to Charlotte.
Honestly this is the main point. What does Rochester have that Toronto does not other than plates, abbots, and I guess another entry point to the US (even then I don’t think we have car rentals there either) this is a lose lose for tourism from a Toronto resident - as there’s nothing here that would warrant a Rochester visit from Toronto other than the returning residents Edit: I guess car rentals may not be a concern, I wasn’t here for the original ferry
I'm genuinely blown away that we're even discussing this again. Some folks just can't seem to fathom that their idea isn't good, regardless of how much evidence there is to the contrary, I suppose.
Apologies… I’m out running errands and didn’t have a chance to look at the spreadsheet. How long is the trip on the ferries you’re looking at? I know another issue is that the total time of the last ferry wasn’t a huge improvement over just driving there.
I think the lack of interest on the Canadian side would be a big issue. Even more crucially, if Canadians were genuinely interested in coming to Rochester, traveling from Charlotte alone would be a huge issue. In some ways, Rochester was more prepared at the beginning of the 20th century with its network of trolleys, trains, and other forms of rail. At one point, they even had a ferry from Charlotte to Seabreeze if I remember correctly. If they don’t have cars / rent cars / use affordable Ubers, they’re not going to get far. Had the 1.0 version worked, maybe we would have seen a redevelopment, but the Charlotte / High Falls revamps now look like money holes. A lot of development seems to be moving away from the lake (and city) and more toward the Finger Lakes. Fairport, Canandaigua, and Victor seem to be expanding, but in ways that sequester them from “big scary Rochester.”
Rochester was a massively popular destination city in the late 1800s-early 1900s and Charlotte was like a western NY version of Atlantic City. Many houses up along the lake were originally cottages for travelers. There were amusement parks, boating and swimming, and lots of outdoor concerts by the likes of John Philip Sousa and other popular band leaders. Many travelers arrived here via the Erie Canal and joined locals on the trolley up Lake Avenue to get to the resort areas. Ship travel on the lake was also available, albeit of mixed quality, and many of those types of travelers ended up going to Sodus Point. What made it work was the fact travel was slow and costly. Most visitors came from NY State and often arrived via a canal boat on the Erie Canal. As transportation improved, people could go further and found even larger venues in other cities. By the early 1900s, Charlotte became a problem child. There were dozens of houses of ill repute, gambling, out of control saloons, and even stores popping up selling “obscene postcards.” The “family” days were over and Charlotte’s ability to maintain and grow tourism would depend on cleaning up the place. At the time, Charlotte only had a handful of hired sheriff’s deputies who worked during the summer. The city of Rochester would eventually annex Charlotte but it was too late. The Great Depression doomed the resort era and it never recovered.
I'm aware. I accounted for expenses one-way and sales in aggregate. Please look at the spreadsheet.
This was a misnomer back then and still is. The argument that people from Toronto won’t come to this area is just wrong. Do people that live in NYC never leave? Of course not. The Finger Lakes, Hudson Valley, Vermont, etc are filled with people wanting to get out of the city for a weekend or whatever. If you give people a reason and make it easy for them, they’ll explore. Rochester has plenty of events that warrant a trip down. What would be needed is someone to handle the logistics of packages. By that I mean you need local hotels, museums and restaurants to participate in package deals. I.e. ferry tix + strong museum tix + 2 nights in hotel + $x at whatever restaurant. Or jazz fest passes + dinner + hotel. Get the Eastman house involved. Vineyards. We’re sitting on top of one of the premier wine regions in the US. Comes down to the logistics of getting people from point A to point B. The major disadvantage is the city’s proximity to the lake. If you can figure out transportation its a winner.
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I’m not saying it would be 50-50. I think 70-30 is prob the balance. But the fact is, the original ferry had ridership of over 45k in one of its last months. That’s not just 45k Rochestarians. There were more Canadians on it than the conventional wisdom said. The idea has merit. The execution was terrible.
As someone who rode the previous ferry twice, I can share a few of my thoughts as a consumer. One trip was a girls day trip at full price and the ferry was only 1/3 full. The 2nd trip they offered a kids ride free day and it was packed in both directions. Both times it was a blast, not just to go to Toronto but also, riding a boat across the Lake was an amazing experience. I think the boat was big and bougie, more so than it needed to be. A smaller, more basic vessel would be fine. Light snacks, coffee and alcoholic bevs are a must. You're right that theatres (there were 2) are probably not needed. I think you'll find more NY ers who will go to Toronto for the day, and more Canadians who'll visit NY for a longer amount of time, bringing there cars onto the boat to travel throughout the area. With the right marketing, some promotional offers, etc., it would be a great addition to Rochester.
I've sold ~~monorails~~ fast ferries to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook... and by gum, it put them on the map!
I’ve heard those things are awfully loud.
They glide as softly as a cloud
Won’t it make waves?
Our economy it will save!
Was not one of the challenges with 1.0 was they projected commercial traffic but could not get the right permits in place for such traffic?
As I understand it 9/11 killed that part of the plan.
Yes I think you are correct there, i seem to remember that now.
What has changed that makes you think that the business model is viable now?
Fewer people in the city, who make even less money. It's a slam dunk!
I think the ferry aspect, if you’re planning on taking cars, makes this a tough go. How about a passenger ferry only? Smaller, cheaper and easier to fill with paying customers.
Would help if the ferry terminal at either end was connected to mass transit.
That’s where the ferry owner makes the real money. Captive audience.
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How do the Canadians get around once they land in the port of Rochester? All we have is a very poor excuse for a bus system.
Traffic in Toronto is horrific, I had just relocated to Rochester at the demise of FF1.0, I absolutely would love another FF!!!
Shit I’d be happy with a SLOW ferry. Still going to beat driving there.
I would sure as heck use it. Toronto is 5 hours by Amtrak or bus and you'd have to get off at Niagara. Driving is a pain due to Toronto traffic. Canadian families would love Strong Museum of Play, which is unique to the Rochester area, just needs to get the word out there.
Gotta pay for the terminals as well
Man I would use it 😩
not sure how feasible i really consider it, but man subjectively i'd love for it to happen considering driving in qew + toronto traffic is... an experience, and the buses/trains can be kinda unreliable too (the former also due to traffic)
What research have you done on the original ferry and the circumstances that caused it to fail?
I think this could work but only if Rochester develops Charlotte into a true beach resort type destination. Wouldn’t be too hard. Just add a board walk, improve walkability and attract infill so it doesn’t feel so suburban. You’d definitely have Canadians come down for the weekend.
Rochester has too short and too mild of a summer for them to ever really truly revitalize the Charlotte area into anything close to resembling a "resort-type destination". You have to get so many separate companies on board and believe in the project for it to even have a small chance. Then if it didn't work you'd see a bunch of those same companies rush out of the area and leave an empty void. I would love to see that area gussied up but I don't believe it will ever happen. I'll just be happy if they do a good job maintaining what is currently there.
Yet looking at waterfront resorts elsewhere in the state they do just fine. Build it and they will come.
You have to have great economic incentive to even attempt a project like that and unfortunately I don't think lake Ontario is enough of a novelty. Like many people have posted about the Fast Ferry there is nothing in that immediate area that would warrant people to come, let alone stay for any duration. If they decide to turn it into waterfront resorts you really need to build out the entire area and get commitment from a great number of companies all betting that it's going to work out in their favor. It needs to be an up and coming area not one that has its best days behind it.
I don’t think you need much. Dunkirk has been doing a great job at increasing tourism just by cleaning up their pier and by attracting a new hotel. No reason why Rochester can’t do the same. People like being by water period.
Rochester's GDP hasn't even grown half a percent since the days of the fast Ferry (2004 time frame). That would tell any investor or developer not to attempt the same fate again. Don't get me wrong I think it would be lovely but I also think it's a pipe dream. So much more has to happen in and around the city of Rochester or really the region for that matter before Charlotte resort development could even be considered. https://www.opendatanetwork.com/entity/310M200US40380/Rochester_Metro_Area_NY/economy.gdp.per_capita_gdp?year=2017
If you look at the people coming to Charlotte it is the wrong bunch for any businesses to be making much money off of them They already built it and they already came (to fight, rob, stab and shoot at each other). Charlotte is nice but it's not a beach I would take my family to on a hot summer day thanks to the behavior that occurs down there unless we were in the mood to watch a bunch of people brawling
Rochester is also in the midst of a housing crisis, redeveloping for tourism is the last thing we should be considering. Tourism brings in money but also reduces housing stock (look at what Airbnb has done to other travel destinations) and useful retail for residents.
Even better would be light rail from Charlotte to downtown but that is obviously a pipe dream.
The funny thing is that they could use the existing rail line too to save money.
The problem was and still is that there aren't enough people in Rochester to keep it alive. You need people to use it on both sides of the lake, and unsurprisingly, people who live in Toronto have no reason to come to a much smaller city and vastly less cosmopolitan city. We have nothing that they don't.
Bingo! Richester has things WE like to go to...RPO, RBTL...Strong Museum...MAG...umm...yeah that's about it. Point us, anything we have, Toronto has bigger and better. They have MLB, NBA, NHL, AHL, and Major League Soccer teams...their zoo is magnitudes better...all a ferry accomplishes is U.S. dollars supporting Canadian enterprises.
I think one thing to consider is the journey is longer but it’s zero hassle. What makes a trip like this zero hassle? Beverages, snacks or small sandwiches, chargers, other comforts. The price can be more if you can give the guests exactly what they want. That’s going to have to be worked out fully in the first few months of operation with heavy surveys.
I took the ferry several/multiple times… there were a LOT of Canadian families coming over for big youth soccer tournaments… there are reasons to come here that aren’t shopping/Finger Lakes. Also IIRC one of the original failings of the business model was that the vessel was flagged in the Bahamas, and they couldn’t carry US mail as a result. Again my recollection but this along with freight was the majority of the business case, not passengers. I’m sure you can fact-check this in the original reporting around this time.
Huh I was expecting those operating expenses to be way bigger. Like sure these are in many ways just back of napkin estimations but I suppose when I think about FF as the “once in a generation” endeavor akin to the Rochester subway, I suppose I had some astronomical figures in mind 🤷♂️
Depends on the size of the vessel. Last one was too big.
Is this a school project or are you seriously trying to bring this back?
Neither, spreadsheets are a hobby
I think of a couple of ways this could be successful is, if it's a part of a larger inclusive tourism package or it is primarily a goods shipping ferry that includes Automobile transport and a small amount of "guest rooms" (see Japanese ferry companies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ferry_operators_in_Japan or for video examples https://youtube.com/@SoloTravelJapan?si=ZcAS20kNjw8bIctS ). For the tour group side of things, I'm seeing something like a 1, 2, and/or 3 day package that includes transportation, activities, some meals and accommodations. Examples: From the Canadian point of view 1 day package with round trip ferry from Toronto Bus to Strong, Eastman, Memorial Art Gallery, Canadaigua, Outlet Mall, and so on. 2 day package with all of the above plus An overnight stay in hotel/Airbnb in the Finger lakes wine Country and a winery/brewery/distillery tour. Dinner at a nice local restaurant. 3 day package with all of the above plus An overnight stay in Niagara falls (Canadian side because it's "nicer") 2 dinners at nice restaurants From the NY point of view 1 day package with round trip ferry from Rochester Bus to CN Tower, Royal Botanical Gardens, Ikea, Royal Ontario Museum, and so on. 2 day package with all of the above plus transport to Niagara Falls An overnight stay on the Canadian side. And Dinner at a nice restaurant. 3 day package with all of the above plus Transportation to Montreal An overnight stay 2 dinners at nice restaurants. Bonus points: If you could size the ships such that you could port in the Niagara and 1000 islands areas to do more of the transport by boat than bus. Create special itineraries for shows and events in and around the major cities. I'm sure there are Bills fans in Canada for instance or music acts that have shows in Toronto but skip upstate NY otherwise.
Literally everyone I know would use it. And I'd use it even more b/c my bf and I are long distance between Rochester and Toronto. The commute is SO irritating, particularly because we know there COULD be a direct ferry.
I believe there are a few companies starting to build electric Ferrys. Probably a more expensive purchase up front but the maintenance would be minimal and long-term energy costs would be far cheaper than an internal combustion version.
The cost of customs and port fees
Wrong idea. Lake cruises are where it’s at.
I miss the Fast Ferry when we had it. Was an awesome experience and hope we can dislodge our heads from our asses to get it done the right way!
It didn't work the first time and it won't work a second time. Stop wasting your time and focus on, literally, anything else.
Ok I’ll take business advice from the hobo
I know it’s not what you want to be hear, but I truly believe this would be viable over in my new residence (Youngstown, NY). For 1, we can see Toronto from our shore so it’s much closer. 2, lots of Canadians live in Niagara county, so there might be more general traffic from friends and family? 3 - loads of Canadians come to shop at Niagara Falls outlets, galleria, etc. already. So much so that it surprised me, sometimes I might see a parking lot half full of Ontario license plates. 4 - the mighty Niagara river is already a port and ready to go. My understanding is Youngstown had some moderately successful ferries in the past to Canada. I think if a fast ferry was to be viable, it would need to be here and not rochester just to support two way traffic.
Once you get to the port in Toronto you still need to get a taxi or Uber. Makes no economic sense for the consumer. Every product should start with solving a known or unknown consumer need
With that logic nobody would fly to most US cities. Regardless, there are streetcar/train stops all along the harbor coast, so you don’t need to call an uber or a taxi right away.
The logic is being applied between two very drivable cities not one that requires a flight. Know your consumer. It is not a business person route it is a consumer route. Good luck finding an investor.
You can drive between Boston and Cape Cod but they still provide a ferry. If I drove to Toronto, I’d be paying three times the cost in gas and parking than the fare in this model. I’m the consumer. And I’m not trying to run this, I made the pro-forma to float the idea and get someone else to.
Unless you gonna pay for that shit out of pocket you can go fuck yourself, it was a novelty at best when it happened, at worst it was a scam to build a Saudi billionaire a yacht on the cheap, it was a terrible idea then, it's a terrible idea now.
You’d need to find a way for it to dock in Henrietta. Start there.