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I’ve got two kids, total cost for me for the births was under $100 USD, mostly on parking an sandwiches for me. But no, I’m sure the US system is superior.
My health insurance which costs over 300 per month has just informed me that after they kindly pay for my essential procedure in 2 days I'll still owe the hospital about a thousand dollars and left me with a 17k ER bill a few months ago. I can't get healthcare through my employer because I can't work because I have health problems right now so this was the best insurance I was eligible for. Oh also the only reason I didn't have to wait until October for said essential procedure (and I am too sick to wait that long says my doctors but oh well!) is because they had a cancellation. At this point even is "government run" healthcare is objectively worse I'd rather have that, at least I'd have healthcare.
Where do you live? Can I come?
Loved living in NZ, just moved back to the states. Also am a doctor. Beautiful country with amazing people and was very conflicted leaving.
Unfortunately it’s not the perfect example of a functional public system. Wait times for specialists for even routine things are shocking (months for an echocardiogram, Urology visit for kidney stones, etc. )
Yes, there is a public system that is free. No, it is not adequate or doing well. I felt like I was providing shoddy service.
The private system dump complications on the public system in a way that was shocking. Got an infected hip after a private pay surgery at the outpatient ortho center? Go to the public hospital where you will be admitted and cared for by the cheap public servants.
Anyways. Not perfect. But cheaper!
It can be months wait here in the US as well though. Complicated by the fact not all offices accept all insurance. Then there's the establishing of just a primary doctor, same story. My mother is diabetic and is going through that nightmare currently. She hasn't had her medication in over a year and has to wait until August for her first visit.
Yeah, it would be one thing if we led the world in either outcomes or expedience. We often lag behind in every metric- some statistics embarrassingly low. How are we this bad at maternal and infant mortality rates while simultaneously outspending everyone on healthcare?
How are we bad at maternal and infant mortality? Well, we made women’s healthcare during pregnancy essentially illegal in half the states.. so that’s a start
Would be nice if there were any causality there, because at least we’d have a finger to point and a target to blame. This dynamic predates that.
We were behind developing countries under Bush Jr and Obama as well.
I think the USA have always been a hotbed for corruption, greed and exploitation, even before independency. It's almost like the main pillar of its national ethics.
But they were incredibly succesful with that, and became the richest, wealthiest, most powerful country on the globe.
However, that is changing. Hard to put the finger exactly when. I guess the end of the Cold War era had a lot to do with it. Or the long term effects of these ethics simply have come home now (no more land to steal, no more people to exploit on a grand scale, no more environmental resources to exploit).
But, the overall structure of society, government, ethics, and national narratives have not changed and now that the almost endless economic high is in decline the whole thing is just crumbling away.
At least for infant mortality my understanding is part of the issue is a discrepancy between how the US and most other countries catalog stillbirth data.
In most of the world infant deaths within 24-48 hours of birth are generally considered stillbirths, especially if they were preterm. But in the US those deaths are rolled over into infant mortality instead, which inflates our numbers.
It’s hard for researchers to know exactly how we’d fare if we categorized that data the same as most of the rest of the world, but I think there have been some estimates that suggest we’re a little behind much of Europe, but not disastrously so like the reported rates suggest.
We still suck at maternal mortality though.
Reporting does lead to a lot of bubbles like the one you describe where one country would overperform relative to peers who report differently. We catch the inverse of this effect with our corruption metrics.
We often lead the world as one of the least corrupt nations, because we have legalized a lot of the methods of corruption. There’s fewer people getting charged, therefore less hits the books when reporting this stuff.
We probably aren’t behind a ton of developing countries in infant mortality, and we probably aren’t leading the world with the least corrupt country. Reporting errors just aren’t as sexy to talk about. We really like silver bullets and magic panaceas, and seemingly have a heavy distaste for nuance in our reasoning.
Yes we have bad outcomes.
We have a huge amount wasted on billing, insurance, and middle men (administrators) that would vanish if we had a fully socialized system.
Doctors are very defensive because of fear (both founded and unfounded) about litigation which has led to huge waste—over testing, over procedures, etc.
Culturally, Americans push for the most treatment possible. Look at the difference between what doctors do when they get sick (like cancer) and what others do. It’s completely different.
Etc.
Yeah was gonna say, took me almost 9 months to get an appointment with a PCP that was taking new patients and he's a fucking quack but would've been 3 more months to get anyone else and I needed a doctor. Ended up needing to go back cause I had been violently ill for a month and booking an appointment was 3 mo out.
I see why our ER system is constantly strained to its breaking point, it's the only way to see a doctor when you really need one so people just go there even if it's not a true emergency. Plus they have to see you whether you have insurance or not
if it's something simple that can be fixed with a prescription, sure. the urgent cares in my area literally just send you to the ER for anything more than that. urgent cares are generally staffed by nurses not doctors, at least every one i've ever been to was.
Yes. Our healthcare system sucks, but is spotty. Most people do not wait that long. But some do.
My friend in NZ had to wait over a year for a pediatric echocardiogram after an abnormal ekg. Such a routine procedure taking so long in the states for a kid would be insane even in a very poorly serviced community.
The private system in NZ is much better. She got an echo in only a few days.
I love the “wait times” excuse for not having a single payer system. I have to wait a *minimum* of 6 months to see a specialist (endocrinologist) here in the US, and I have a fucking tumor on my pituitary gland.
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but we wait that long for specialists in the US too.
If it's not going to imminently kill you, expect it to be six months before you get in. (If they are taking new patients. The rheumatologists near me aren't. Unless you are at death's door, they don't have room.)
We had to wait 3 months to get my son's eustacian tube's put in, meanwhile he was getting an ear infection every 10-14 days or so. I was calling around to find a PCP back in January and they couldn't even get me in for an office visit for two months. I ended up going to an "adolescent care" specialist at 33 because he was the only one I didn't have to wait months for. His oldest patient was in his 40s so I said I'd take it if it meant having a doctor.
The US has long wait times *and* exorbitant prices so I'll take just the long wait times thanks
NZ like Canada and most countries that had a functional public health system are still being bled to death by neoliberalism cutting away tax revenue and spending on social services until there's nothing left.
That's not Canada's current problem. Canada's problem is it's liberal at the federal level but conservative at the provincial level. So while we have "free healthcare", the provincial level can "starve the beast" to make public healthcare look bad so it can be cut further
Live in the US. Went to the ER in January, after multiple follow ups got a diagnosis of the likely cause of the pain in April, got a surgery consult in June, and now I’ve waited over a week *just for the surgery scheduler to call me to schedule an appointment for the surgery.*
Our system also makes people wait months. And despite having pretty good healthcare, I still have had to pay nearly $1000 dollars so far for the appointments and diagnostics we’ve done. My life is on hold until we schedule a surgery and I find out how much we have to pay for that.
That’s not the message that I was relaying.
Their specific system is not in robust heath. Public/private systems may function fine. Each is unique. Some work great. It’s silly to lump them all together. Most all are better than the US system, depending on your metric.
The point is the private system will plot 24/7/365 to undermine and murder the public system every opportunity it gets. Cold and calculating like a serial killer — you see the same thing with school vouchers actively working to destroy public education
I was paying Kaiser $400 every month for YEARS and never needed it. Then I had to go into the ER because I thought my appendix burst one morning. While they're hooking me up to pain meds, they tell me the cost and ask for my card right then for like $80 and I thought "That's pretty great!". Turned out to be kidney stones, which they learned after a quick ultrasound but still ran a BUNCH of tests. Two weeks later, got a bill for 3k saying I had a few weeks to pay in full.
Meanwhile my friends in Canada and the UK are "Broke my leg. $75, not bad". Sure, it means you can't walk in with a papercut and get seen that day but if it means not paying a penny to see a doctor, I'm all in!
I was between jobs last year and paid $330 a month for healthcare.gov insurance. Had a rabies scare, and AFTER insurance, I now have a bill for $14,000 for the vaccines. Hospital wants me to apply for Medicare first to give me financial assistance, but I have a job now, so no way I'd get Medicare.
I just let the bills go to collections, almost every time just letting them do that magically makes them lower. Then I dispute them and make them lower again. Barely any effort on my part because I don't really care to go through the specifics of my charges I just want a lower number to appear. Then I pay before the 30 days with collections. My credit score is fabulous and there's no evidence of anything ever being sent to collections.
Its with collections now and I have disputed it once already. Not lowered at all unfortunately. It seems like all the medical bill tricks work with everyone else but me.
Yeah like what's the point of having such great quality medical care if I can't access it? People routinely make themselves sicker and end up requiring more medical care than they otherwise would have because they couldn't seek care earlier! And it's not like stress doesn't make a lot of health conditions worse, not even in a "body stress so bad immune system" way but some viruses are literally activated by stress.
I don't care if countries with socialized medicine have worse quality care, or wait times, or not as nice facilities. It isn't universally true but even if it is who cares? I'd happily bet that I would be a much healthier person, and so would many others, if getting sick wasn't a financial punishment, even with "worse" care
Our parking for $4usd total for the week, had an emergency c section, parking was all we paid and they gave us a huge baby box for free with a bunch of things like books, clothes, tooth brush and other toiletries for babies.
We also have these pretty frequent compulsory appointments to make sure the kid is being looked after properly, I’m not sure if other countries do that, but it’s a great idea!
My first 2 cost us $3000. My last was sort of free, but that’s because I had hit my deductible and out of pocket (total $1500) before birth due to twice weekly non-stress tests. I would love to have the only bill for giving birth be sandwiches or parking.
My first born was an emergency C-section (amazing doctors) to deal with fetal distress on the due date. My second one was 6w early and spent a week in NICU and another two in transitional care to deal with Jaundice.
The most amount of money I spent was in parking (a£15 for a week iirc) and petrol driving back and forth between the house and hospital. I also remember backing into a parking lot pillar because I was a bit sleep deprived, so that was another £100 to sort that out.
Two childbirths involving very highly specialized medical professionals? Completely fucking free (at the point of consumption - I pay my taxes). I'm sure the USA system is better tho.
Mum had a collapse (iron deficiency), turned into pneumonia, into covid. 3 month stay. Money spent; parking and on the first night approx £80 on machine espresso (which was surprisingly decent) due to me having to spend the night roaming an empty hospital.
How much gun violence do you have in maternity wards in the US?!
But yes, lots of guns here for hunting/sporting. Not for home defence because gun violence is virtually unknown compared to US levels.
>How much gun violence do you have in maternity wards in the US?!
Lol honestly probably much more than average if our general gun violence trends carry over
I was just about to post the same thing. I live in Canada and when my kid was born I spent about 8 dollars on parking and $20 on sandwiches. My wife recovered in the hospital for 3 nights and we left with a nice care package full of diapers and swaddle cloths and stuff!
Basically the same here in Australia, although it also included a C-section after a 'natural' birth in a private birthing room (kinda like a generic hotel room but with a giant spa in the bathroom) didn't turn out as planned.
Definitely a good feeling walking out and there isn't any kind of payment counter, even if you searched.
Got a kid with a broken leg now. Same deal. Hospital, cast, crutches, multiple follow up sessions with the specialists, walk out afterwards and nobody blinks.
And yeah, we all know it's not "free" because of taxes, but when you have an emergency it's sure as hell great to not have to reach into your pocket at all.
I have 2 kids in US our total bill was a check for 40$ usd to cover parking at the facility on top of a breast pump, some blankets, and a car seat insert thing.
We do pay about 160 dollars in insurance a month, though ( a little less that's current and rates were lower a couple of years ago)
The US system is hot festering garbage.
BUT, I don't believe we can trust the US government to run a system either. They've proven over and over again that ANY government run system will be inefficient, expensive, and eventually used as political leverage in our two party system.
We need to either overhaul our policy system (we do), or look at another option, like a government regulated private system.
1) evaluate and create a pricing system for all medical procedures (with a 5-10% pad for profit)
2) mandate that all healthcare providers operate within these costs
3) convert corporation payouts of healthcare into a tax that would fully fund all healthcare expenses (this would likely be less than they're currently paying)
4) eliminate insurance companies and individual healthcare costs
The US pays significantly more nationally and individually per person for healthcare than any other country, and 90% of that blame lies on insurance companies and their insane profits and buying politicians.
Nah. More higher-deducting the financial risk off insurance sellers' revenue and more different individual retail POS payment processing product initialisms that run on nothing more than tax avoidance and the intentional defunding of Social Security and Medicare should get it done. Give them another 3-4 decades to self-replicate and *bring down the 'cost' of health care ...*
This is one of the main facets of the internet as a medium that I fucking despise. Abby (and other Conservatives) can just sit there and effectively lie like this; *and no one can grill her and make her answer these questions*.
There's no back and forth where someone can actually be *challenged* on the shit they say. THIS is why "a lie can make it halfway across the world, before the truth gets its pants on."
Abby fucking KNOWS what the answers are, she hates all of them because they'll crush her who. So instead, she'll stochastically fan the flames of Conservative outrage, and suffer not even the consequence of admitting that she's a hypocritical fraud.
This is lying as political speech; and it's the driving method that's killing our societies.
This shit pisses me off too. People can scream absurdities into the void, get tens of thousands of views, block all dissenting opinions, and every social media site behaves that way, making social media into this one-sided constant blast of nonsense.
Even on Reddit there are a lot of curated communities with people being banned or having their posts removed for stepping out of line. Moderation is a massive black box with unknown people making unknown decisions.
A lot of the public internet is just an awful medium for conversation now. There's Discord, but that's private, and very fragmented. Nothing has replaced classic PHPbb style forums in terms of conversation.
>Moderation is a massive black box with unknown people making unknown decisions.
When every "punishment" is a permaban, it should he little wonder as to why people just make new accounts and show up a couple months later 🤷♀️
>Nothing has replaced classic PHPbb style forums in terms of conversation.
Reddit is probably the closest we'll ever get, to that format. It doesn't make money; that's a big part of it.
>Reddit is probably the closest we'll ever get, to that format. It doesn't make money; that's a big part of it.
Lack of money to run these things long term and lack of time or will to moderate are probably the biggest factors leading to the decay of communities. I don't think there are good answers to how to fix this problem without asking people to pay money, which isn't great either.
The answer is that kind hearted billionaires privately donate money to you specifically.
That's not a joke. I knew a girl in high school who was a hardcore "libertarian" (IDK if she actually was or if that is what libertarianism is, that's just how she described herself). She wanted to kick the government out of everything and instead rely on "our community" for support. One example she gave was that people shouldn't give money to homeless shelters and instead a bunch people should all pitch in a bit of money to give one homeless person a house.
And if you pointed out that what she just described is taxes, she said it was different because you're forced to pay taxes. When pointing out that most people would not give away their money unless they were forced to, she would say were mean and have no faith in our fellow human. To her, the only reason trickle down economics isn't working is because the government is taking all these taxes so the billionaires can't do their public good.
Whatever doesn't involve her admitting she is wrong.
Talked to some anti-teachers union folks a few years back who "wanted school funds to go to teachers and classroom, and for teachers to have more agency."
Walking lessons on brainwashing.
Well, for one thing she’s conflating healthcare with insurance. No one ever said “let’s get rid of private hospitals.” In fact, the actual hands-on medical care has nothing to do with the debate about who should pay for it.
She says “No, I don’t think the answer is government run health care,” but she doesn’t say what she thinks about government run insurance.
I don't know if Abby could tell us because she doesn't even seem to have a solid grasp of the actual issues. Abby said government *run* healthcare. Most conversations revolve around government *funded* healthcare. Abby may or may not be aware of the difference (I can't give her intelligence or her honesty the benefit of the doubt).
We take all those hippy liberal doctors telling me to get vaccinated and make them work on lower salaries by force. Cut red tape (best practices) and make healthcare a combination of witchcraft, faith healing, pseudoscience and gambling. Don't worry I am lucky, and have a good feeling about this. /S
nono see, its the fault of the barely existing regulations! If healthcare was totally unregulated we could have a wider field of providers and therefore the costs for the consumer would fall!
I'm sure my current insurance told me just that. You know, the one that makes me pay thousnads of $$$ each month and still barely covers anything?
Any moment now, it will trickle down!
It also wouldn't hurt to give these corporations more tax cuts. The poor things can barely survive on their billions and billions of profits every year.
I think it's even dumber than egoism.
Don't remember where I read it, but somebody made a test to sell MAGAts on public healthcare by using different words, like "free citizens making a regular donation to a common fund" something like that, and suddenly it was A-OK!
"Public healthcare" => kneejerk dismissal
"People helping each other out" => the American Way!
Sure, let's reinvent the wheel because you "don't trust government". Except then it becomes government anyhow. Le sigh.
I mean, you only have to look at all the conservatives who put up a GoFundMe page to pay for their healthcare. It’s not the concept that they dislike, they just cannot stand the idea that *other* people would also benefit from public healthcare.
> they just cannot stand the idea that other people would also benefit from public healthcare.
Definitely true and something I omitted above. The "better" system they envision would (try to) make sure only god-fearing 'muricans benefit.
Which boils back down to plain egoism: it's only unfair if I don't get it, otherwise it's "pull yourself up by your bootsraps".
Someone did an “on the street” interview thing back when the ACA was moving through congress, and asked people which they preferred: Obamacare or the Affordable Care Act. You can probably guess the results. Vehement hate for Obamacare, but this ACA thing was sounding good to them.
I think you're exactly right, based upon her own wording (government run as opposed to government funded; that suggests she's still picturing death panels).
[For those who aren't getting the Biblical reference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau). I'll admit, I've never met someone named Esau before. It's not a common name like Jacob (his younger brother) and not exactly viewed in a positive light in The Bible. So you both need to read the book and also....not care?
I paid $0 for each of my kids when they were born. Not counting ordering take out for myself each time. That is because I have a union which gets us rather decent health insurance.
The fact that the system works for me is not an argument in favor of the system. It simply begs the question:
WHY THE F&#% DOESN'T EVERYONE GET THESE BENEFITS SIMPLY BY POOLING OUR RESOURCES COLLECTIVELY THROUGH A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM?
Literally thousands of dollars a day just to keep them seaworthy! And don’t get me started on the fuel costs to run them. That’s why I’m going to vote for the president who was in charge during a pandemic when oil companies literally had to give stock away because no one was using fuel.
I don’t have a yacht *yet*, but I’m sure I will one day, and I just want to make sure I have favorable conditions, you know?
The existence of the socialist interstate shows the critical importance of being able to efficiently move goods and services.
The existence of capitalist healthcare shows when it comes to the critical importance of staying alive and healthy, fuck you.
There was a recent discussion in R/fuckcars; it revealed that car insurance is a close second, compared to most other countries, even my super expensive Northern European home.
Those things are all linked. Part of the reason why car insurance is so expensive is because if you hit someone the damages are so ridiculously high, partly because of the insane healthcare costs. Which in turn are partly because of the insane costs for education, and so forth.
If I hit some pedestrian and they break their leg that will cost my car insurance something like $10k for the hospital and the personal injury compensation plus maybe lost wages; in the US it could easily cost $30k and that doesn't even include personal injury compensation let alone lost wages. So obviously car insurance needs to be significantly more expensive in the US
> Which in turn are partly because of the insane costs for education
health care costs are high for two primary reasons:
* the "health care" industry inflating prices by adding a third party to be paid to every health care transaction
* us tort law and precedent is steeply tilted against doctors and health care providers, and honestly due for some reform. as a result, malpractice insurance exists, and the "savings" are passed on to the consumer
Additionally, people who can't afford insurance still need healthcare, and often wait until their condition is more serious and more expensive to treat as a result. And since then they can't afford to pay for the healthcare, the cost of their treatment ends up passed along in the form of higher costs to make it up.
the phrase "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" holds true for medical care; unfortunately it's not health care companies bearing the burden for paying for the pounds of cure that the uninsured end up needing, so there's no real impetus to find a better solution
My mom recently broke her ankle and had to go to the hospital. She needed 2 surgeries and a few months in a rehab center so she could walk again. A few days into her stay at the rehab clinic, we got the call that insurance ran out so she's getting kicked out. A 65 year old woman with an open fracture that left her foot dangling, and she getting told to go home and figure it out. That's ignoring the hefty medical bill we know is coming.
And pop thinks we don't need socialized healthcare.
I keep seeing this stupid twitter account, another out there conspiracy moron reveling in controversial takes while rutting around in the outrage muck like the fascist pigs they are.
For a second I thought it was benny boy's sister, another infamous idiot flaunting their trad wife opinions and whatever stupidity crosses their mind, but no that's classically abby.
This christo fascist nutjob has....an interesting podcast with their fellow host AJ who....well is also a christo fascist nutjob. It's also remarkable how they're such ardent defenders of Israel yet rabid anti semites throughout their history(because of course they're pro-zionist christo fascists).
Hell, we're talking about a guy with a pinned tweet
>I say Christ is King because Christ is King.
You say Christ is King because you hate the Jews.
We are not the same.
You know, the [infamous dog whistle that got candace owens fired](https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2024/march-web-only/christ-king-antisemitism-russell-moore-candace-owens.html) and nick fuentes fucking LOVES it.
My point being: I can hardly find anything about these two tossers, but they have such amazing discussions on their podcast like, and from their most recent podcast episode
>Did you know Pride Month is a four-thousand-year-old celebration of the goddess Ishtar? The LGBTQ movement knows and thinks this is good, actually.
PJ & Abby talk about more signs of the return of the old gods and what that means for our society and the end times.
Imagine, just imagine, taking people seriously who harp on about the "very real" dangers of ancient Mesopotamian deities. Also, and I can't stress this enough: [Ishtar is considered one of the Annunaki](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ishtar-Mesopotamian-goddess), another massive anti-Semitic dog whistle.
And please, if anyone knows someone in the LGBTQ realm, please ask them how their Ishtar celebrations are coming along. There's been some stupid fucking opinions from these smooth brains regarding anti-LGBTQ accusations(they cause floods, they cause eclipses, they cause mass shootings and insurrections etc.) but the Ishtar thing? Man that's certainly up there. Considering how much these two worship alex "eat my neighbours" jones it's no surprise they come up with the dumbest opinions.
> This christo fascist nutjob has....an interesting podcast with their fellow host AJ who....well is also a christo fascist nutjob. It's also remarkable how they're such ardent defenders of Israel yet rabid anti semites throughout their history(because of course they're pro-zionist christo fascists).
The current stance is contrarianism pure and simple, and in their dull minds it probably doesn't even clash with their more "traditional" antisemitism (world elites, yadda yadda).
> You know, the infamous dog whistle that got candace owens fired and nick fuentes fucking LOVES it.
That was a nice article. I bet many of the above would hate it if it wasn't clearly posted on a Christian website.
I like how it doesn't exalt the crucifiction but displays it as the heinous act of a cruel imperialist government, carried out by sadistic numbskulls.
The Romans as the first antisemitic trolls.
"Someone really needs to step in and make this cheaper."
"...but, like, not the organization that exists solely to do that sort of thing. That's insanity."
Fun fact, when my first kid was born I lived in NY and was in a very similar situation; decent insurance, deductible was still like $5k for the delivery. My wife didn't even use any pain meds.
But in NY (at the time at least, haven't lived there for a bit now so it could be no longer the case) every pregnant person and newborn was automatically enrolled in Medicaid to ensure access to care. So my wife automatically had a Medicaid card, and it picked up the rest. Total bill: like $10 because the hospital did a "first meal as parents" thing and I had to pay for mine since I was not a patient.
But... But... *Wait times!* /s
Sure, it's worth spending tens of thousands for common, necessary care because you can allegedly get it a little faster!
(Conveniently ignoring how there *are* looooong wait times for all kinds of things in the US)
"Government run healthcare?! No, I'd rather have healthcare run by soulless grifters trying to make as much money as possible in order to please their shareholders and maximize quarterly profits. What could go wrong?"
It is absolutely painful how many Americans believe this wholeheartedly, no matter how often you point out that nearly every other developed country in the world have more efficient and effective systems than America. The American medical system is designed for one main purpose: making money for people investing in it. It's all about greed, at the expense of people's lives.
The Stockholm syndrome people feel for private Healthcare is bonkers. Pay through the nose to wait 3 months for an appointment, just to get there and see the doctor for less than 3 minutes on average, and then fight with insurance when they don't feel like servicing you despite tens of thousands of dollars paid already in premiums.
The funniest thing is that we already have the system and the infrastructure to provide free healthcare to everyone. Funniest? Saddest. The saddest thing.
They are in the US...
There seems to be a lot of numbers thrown around in a casual search, but every one of them is in 15-20k range for the American average cost. Varies regionally.
We're a shithole country, man, an absolute hellhole.
My insurance thankfully covered our $75,000 bill. I had to be induced so I was in the hospital for a total of 5 days. My daughter was in for 3 (35 weeker). She had a neonatalogist which is a doctor for preemies/NICU babies. She was out of network so they were trying to stick us with the bill. I totally them I'm not paying thousands of dollars to an out of network doctor who was on call at the time of delivery. That's not my problem. Thankfully my insurance took care of that too.
I had a coworker who was hit with a $10k bill AFTER INSURANCE because the anaethesiologist was out-of-network so the insurance company only paid 20% of the cost. He'd called the hospital ahead of time and made sure all the possible OB/GYN doctors were in-network but he didn't think about anaethesiologists because the birth wasn't expected to be a c-section. BTW: Our company has excellent insurance. (This was a few years ago and there may be laws against this in-network/out-of-network nonsense within hospitals now.) Yeah, he had to pay over $10k out of pocket after all was said and done.
You can probably gues what country I live in.
So what do these people think the answer is? Doctors and other HCWs work for free? Hospitals just stop paying their bills for lights and water? DME and Pharm companies donate equipment and medicine out of the goodness of their hearts?
There is no solving the problem of American healthcare at this point without some kind of government intervention. Period. Until we accept that fact, let's not even pretend to have the conversation.
Maybe health insurance companies could be made to forgo exorbitant profits — you know, the kind that turned UnitedHealth executives, among others, into multimillionaires, even billionaires. And that’s what single-payer would do.
You're preaching to the choir here. I'm a HCW, and I'm all for single payer, a public option, ANYTHING that stops our healthcare system from collapsing around us, piece by piece. But all of that requires government intervention of some sort, and if there is no political will or public pressure to get these things done, then they won't get done. And as the original image shows, that's exactly what's happening: this person thinks Someone Should Do Something, but not the government, no no no. Well, who, then? Is BCBS going to waive her deductible out of the goodness of their hearts? No. These are the same type of people who rail against unions, then wonder why burger-flippers are making almost as much as tradesmen in some places. 🤔
To be fair, the problem *isn't* just "government run healthcare". You could keep it all private and have laws preventing exorbitant profit margins. It doesn't cost 25k to have a baby on the NHS, regardless of who is paying for it.
I was gonna say, he's not *entirely* wrong. He certainly ain't right, but the fact they're even trying to charge 25K pre-insurance for a natural process we quite literally, as a species, need to survive is fucking insane to start. We don't *just* need gov't healthcare, we need an entire restructuring of feckin *everything* let alone healthcare.
Come on, try it, you might like it!
Rather than try something that may work, let's continue to try the system that is overpriced and denies people health care when they can't afford it.
"OMG there's a nail in my eyeball! This is nuts! There shouldn't be a nail in my eye!
And don't @ me with that "take the nail out of your eye" crap."
The depth of the devotion to causing and keeping their own problems is really something. I mean, i guess having the same 4 problems your whole life does keep those 7 neurons from overloading 🤷♀️
There are so many middlemen (insurance companies, hospitals, etc) in the U.S. healthcare system taking their cut that prices have to be so high to accommodate all that profit.
If you have to pay $5,000 why not just spend that $5,000 on a vacation conveniently close to the estimated time of birth and give birth in a civilized country for free then come home with a baby. I’d rather spend $5,000 on a vacation than giving it to a hospital
Doesn't really work like that, at least here in BC, Canada. If you're not a resident \[of Canada\], you're paying. (and sorting it out with your insurance later if need be)
Yeah, unfortunately it doesn’t work that way. If you aren’t a resident of the country you’re choosing to birth in and actually have their insurance, you’re still going to be paying for said birth. Their healthcare is free for residents due to the taxes that they pay - basically they’re ALL paying for everyone’s healthcare. So, if you spend $5,000 on a vacation to Canada/the UK/wherever, you’ll come home with a baby who has dual citizenship and a fairly hefty medical bill.
Oh, anecdote time.
In 2008 my then girlfriend, now wife had an ectopic pregnancy surgically removed. Total cost, $20 for parking.
In 2009 I broke my ankle playing roller hockey. From time of break to back home in a temporary cast was 3 hours. Total cost: $15 for a cab ride.
in 2011, first child needed an emergency C-Section. From consent to delivery was about 15 minutes. Total cost. $20 for parking.
In 2015 my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer on a Friday, and started her treatment on Monday. Total Cost: $0.
I make around $120K per year and pay around $25K in income tax, plus a few grand at least in consumer taxes.
US Healthcare is top-notch, if you can afford it. Our Canadian medical system has it flaws, but it's been there for when I've needed it.
I suffered from gall bladder issues for 13 years when I lived in the states because I couldn't afford to get the surgery for it. I moved to Canada, two weeks after my OHIP kicked in I had an attack, and had the surgery completed within 24 hours. I'm pretty sure that after 13 years of pretending nothing was wrong, it was at emergency status, or I might have waited a few months. But it cost me the price of the painkillers I bought for my recuperation time.
Isn't this the same moron who was at the top of /r/LeopardsAteMyFace yesterday because she hates that there's nowhere for conservative trad women because the left doesn't want them and the right hates women?
Despite all the complaints and legitimate issues, the VA actually performs a lot better than people think when you compare it to private insurance, and a lot of the problems it does have are because it is understaffed and underfunded.
Unlimited funding for active military operations but once they're no longer active duty, they're just another budget line item to get cut.
Insurance prices and regulations will eventually force more government intervention and coverage in the industry. 30 years ago, when my son was born at St. Vincent's in NYC, I was a member of the Director's Guild. My then wife had a C section, was hospitalized in a private room for 4 days, had regular staff nurses and student nurses, a lactation consultant, and an Occupational Therapist to show her how to handle him (our son was nearly 10 pounds, my ex-wife was only about 5 feet tall and could not carry him for the first month because of her stitches). When she was released, we paid our out of pocket with a $20 and got change. It doesn't work like that any more.
They don't have good insurance.
My daughter was born six years ago, but we paid about 1000 for all combined services to get her home; and there were compliacations.
It was great insurance, only good thing about that job. Heck, the employer even gave a monthly stipend to pay deductibles.
But yes, the US healthcare system is insane! It's not the best in the would, and is unavailable for too many.
I don't know the ins and outs of how this works, as I don't live in New York State. But I had friends who waited to get married until after they had kids specifically because the man already had shit credit, while the woman was in nursing school, so they were able to register the births under the man's name, not pay the bills until they got written off by the hospital, and it wouldn't affect them as a family unit. Then they finally got married.
Otherwise it would have been $35k a child.
"No, I don't want the only actual way to fix the problem, to fix the problem! I only want it magically fixed in a way that supports my shitty ideas and hate!"
One of my idiot coworkers is okay with taxes going up to cap property taxes but not for Healthcare, while at the same time praising Canada's Healthcare system. What a joke.
To be fair, I don't know if hospitals should be charging that high in the first place. I'm no expert, granted, but if they're charging more than they should be owed, then in a way, she's right, just not for the reason she probably thinks she's right
But at the same time, the government really should be stepping in when it gets to this point regardless, and probably should have *a very long time ago*
In the good old days the GQP is always yammering about, before state and federal government stepped in, insurance paid exactly zero for vaginal childbirth. It was considered an elective procedure. Things were far cheaper back then thank God, but my first child’s birth expenses were 100% on me, as were early childhood vaccinations, well baby care, birth control, etc.
The answer is NOT universal health care.
The answer is for people like that to go have births in their own bathtubs and die, while the rest of us have non-universal health care. Exclude them and only them, everyone else gets it.
Strictly speaking, universal single-payer health insurance isn't “government-run healthcare.“ Under the Canadian system, for example, medical facilities are independent; they just have to bill the government for everything.
Will any of these people ever, ever come to the realization that single-payer is not “government-run healthcare”? Nobody is proposing a national health service. Every other developed country on earth has figured this out and people don’t f*cking go bankrupt because of a medical issue. I am losing all hope.
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I’ve got two kids, total cost for me for the births was under $100 USD, mostly on parking an sandwiches for me. But no, I’m sure the US system is superior.
My health insurance which costs over 300 per month has just informed me that after they kindly pay for my essential procedure in 2 days I'll still owe the hospital about a thousand dollars and left me with a 17k ER bill a few months ago. I can't get healthcare through my employer because I can't work because I have health problems right now so this was the best insurance I was eligible for. Oh also the only reason I didn't have to wait until October for said essential procedure (and I am too sick to wait that long says my doctors but oh well!) is because they had a cancellation. At this point even is "government run" healthcare is objectively worse I'd rather have that, at least I'd have healthcare. Where do you live? Can I come?
One child was in the U.K. second was in NZ
Loved living in NZ, just moved back to the states. Also am a doctor. Beautiful country with amazing people and was very conflicted leaving. Unfortunately it’s not the perfect example of a functional public system. Wait times for specialists for even routine things are shocking (months for an echocardiogram, Urology visit for kidney stones, etc. ) Yes, there is a public system that is free. No, it is not adequate or doing well. I felt like I was providing shoddy service. The private system dump complications on the public system in a way that was shocking. Got an infected hip after a private pay surgery at the outpatient ortho center? Go to the public hospital where you will be admitted and cared for by the cheap public servants. Anyways. Not perfect. But cheaper!
It can be months wait here in the US as well though. Complicated by the fact not all offices accept all insurance. Then there's the establishing of just a primary doctor, same story. My mother is diabetic and is going through that nightmare currently. She hasn't had her medication in over a year and has to wait until August for her first visit.
Yeah, it would be one thing if we led the world in either outcomes or expedience. We often lag behind in every metric- some statistics embarrassingly low. How are we this bad at maternal and infant mortality rates while simultaneously outspending everyone on healthcare?
How are we bad at maternal and infant mortality? Well, we made women’s healthcare during pregnancy essentially illegal in half the states.. so that’s a start
Would be nice if there were any causality there, because at least we’d have a finger to point and a target to blame. This dynamic predates that. We were behind developing countries under Bush Jr and Obama as well.
I think the USA have always been a hotbed for corruption, greed and exploitation, even before independency. It's almost like the main pillar of its national ethics. But they were incredibly succesful with that, and became the richest, wealthiest, most powerful country on the globe. However, that is changing. Hard to put the finger exactly when. I guess the end of the Cold War era had a lot to do with it. Or the long term effects of these ethics simply have come home now (no more land to steal, no more people to exploit on a grand scale, no more environmental resources to exploit). But, the overall structure of society, government, ethics, and national narratives have not changed and now that the almost endless economic high is in decline the whole thing is just crumbling away.
At least for infant mortality my understanding is part of the issue is a discrepancy between how the US and most other countries catalog stillbirth data. In most of the world infant deaths within 24-48 hours of birth are generally considered stillbirths, especially if they were preterm. But in the US those deaths are rolled over into infant mortality instead, which inflates our numbers. It’s hard for researchers to know exactly how we’d fare if we categorized that data the same as most of the rest of the world, but I think there have been some estimates that suggest we’re a little behind much of Europe, but not disastrously so like the reported rates suggest. We still suck at maternal mortality though.
Reporting does lead to a lot of bubbles like the one you describe where one country would overperform relative to peers who report differently. We catch the inverse of this effect with our corruption metrics. We often lead the world as one of the least corrupt nations, because we have legalized a lot of the methods of corruption. There’s fewer people getting charged, therefore less hits the books when reporting this stuff. We probably aren’t behind a ton of developing countries in infant mortality, and we probably aren’t leading the world with the least corrupt country. Reporting errors just aren’t as sexy to talk about. We really like silver bullets and magic panaceas, and seemingly have a heavy distaste for nuance in our reasoning.
Yes we have bad outcomes. We have a huge amount wasted on billing, insurance, and middle men (administrators) that would vanish if we had a fully socialized system. Doctors are very defensive because of fear (both founded and unfounded) about litigation which has led to huge waste—over testing, over procedures, etc. Culturally, Americans push for the most treatment possible. Look at the difference between what doctors do when they get sick (like cancer) and what others do. It’s completely different. Etc.
Try finding a doctor taking new Medicaid patients in Colorado. I'm on several waitlists. Been off my meds for a solid month now. Awesome.
Yeah was gonna say, took me almost 9 months to get an appointment with a PCP that was taking new patients and he's a fucking quack but would've been 3 more months to get anyone else and I needed a doctor. Ended up needing to go back cause I had been violently ill for a month and booking an appointment was 3 mo out. I see why our ER system is constantly strained to its breaking point, it's the only way to see a doctor when you really need one so people just go there even if it's not a true emergency. Plus they have to see you whether you have insurance or not
Urgent care is for what you are talking about. They see you immediately just like the ER
if it's something simple that can be fixed with a prescription, sure. the urgent cares in my area literally just send you to the ER for anything more than that. urgent cares are generally staffed by nurses not doctors, at least every one i've ever been to was.
Yeah, it gets frustrating if you just get sent to the ER!
Yes. Our healthcare system sucks, but is spotty. Most people do not wait that long. But some do. My friend in NZ had to wait over a year for a pediatric echocardiogram after an abnormal ekg. Such a routine procedure taking so long in the states for a kid would be insane even in a very poorly serviced community. The private system in NZ is much better. She got an echo in only a few days.
I love the “wait times” excuse for not having a single payer system. I have to wait a *minimum* of 6 months to see a specialist (endocrinologist) here in the US, and I have a fucking tumor on my pituitary gland.
Can you imagine if rich people had to wait even a second for their facelift so a 90 year old can have a hospital bed?
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but we wait that long for specialists in the US too. If it's not going to imminently kill you, expect it to be six months before you get in. (If they are taking new patients. The rheumatologists near me aren't. Unless you are at death's door, they don't have room.)
We had to wait 3 months to get my son's eustacian tube's put in, meanwhile he was getting an ear infection every 10-14 days or so. I was calling around to find a PCP back in January and they couldn't even get me in for an office visit for two months. I ended up going to an "adolescent care" specialist at 33 because he was the only one I didn't have to wait months for. His oldest patient was in his 40s so I said I'd take it if it meant having a doctor. The US has long wait times *and* exorbitant prices so I'll take just the long wait times thanks
NZ like Canada and most countries that had a functional public health system are still being bled to death by neoliberalism cutting away tax revenue and spending on social services until there's nothing left.
That's not Canada's current problem. Canada's problem is it's liberal at the federal level but conservative at the provincial level. So while we have "free healthcare", the provincial level can "starve the beast" to make public healthcare look bad so it can be cut further
That would be neoliberalism in a nutshell, yes
There are months long wait for routine things here. Id rather be cared for my cheap public servants than not be cared for.
Live in the US. Went to the ER in January, after multiple follow ups got a diagnosis of the likely cause of the pain in April, got a surgery consult in June, and now I’ve waited over a week *just for the surgery scheduler to call me to schedule an appointment for the surgery.* Our system also makes people wait months. And despite having pretty good healthcare, I still have had to pay nearly $1000 dollars so far for the appointments and diagnostics we’ve done. My life is on hold until we schedule a surgery and I find out how much we have to pay for that.
>Not perfect. But cheaper! Not perfect. But preferable!
And THAT is why you don't have public-private systems.
That’s not the message that I was relaying. Their specific system is not in robust heath. Public/private systems may function fine. Each is unique. Some work great. It’s silly to lump them all together. Most all are better than the US system, depending on your metric.
The point is the private system will plot 24/7/365 to undermine and murder the public system every opportunity it gets. Cold and calculating like a serial killer — you see the same thing with school vouchers actively working to destroy public education
Yup. Blood sucking capitalists have absolutely no problem letting people die for profit… the opioid epidemic made that crystal clear
Thank you.
Wait times for specialists are pretty brutal in the US too
I was paying Kaiser $400 every month for YEARS and never needed it. Then I had to go into the ER because I thought my appendix burst one morning. While they're hooking me up to pain meds, they tell me the cost and ask for my card right then for like $80 and I thought "That's pretty great!". Turned out to be kidney stones, which they learned after a quick ultrasound but still ran a BUNCH of tests. Two weeks later, got a bill for 3k saying I had a few weeks to pay in full. Meanwhile my friends in Canada and the UK are "Broke my leg. $75, not bad". Sure, it means you can't walk in with a papercut and get seen that day but if it means not paying a penny to see a doctor, I'm all in!
I was between jobs last year and paid $330 a month for healthcare.gov insurance. Had a rabies scare, and AFTER insurance, I now have a bill for $14,000 for the vaccines. Hospital wants me to apply for Medicare first to give me financial assistance, but I have a job now, so no way I'd get Medicare.
I just let the bills go to collections, almost every time just letting them do that magically makes them lower. Then I dispute them and make them lower again. Barely any effort on my part because I don't really care to go through the specifics of my charges I just want a lower number to appear. Then I pay before the 30 days with collections. My credit score is fabulous and there's no evidence of anything ever being sent to collections.
Its with collections now and I have disputed it once already. Not lowered at all unfortunately. It seems like all the medical bill tricks work with everyone else but me.
Man I had one go from 3k to 400 just by letting it go to collections, only got that lucky once
Holy crap! This! I had a colon resection on "good" insurance. I had to pay out a $7800 deductible AND then 20% on the left over amount.
Yeah like what's the point of having such great quality medical care if I can't access it? People routinely make themselves sicker and end up requiring more medical care than they otherwise would have because they couldn't seek care earlier! And it's not like stress doesn't make a lot of health conditions worse, not even in a "body stress so bad immune system" way but some viruses are literally activated by stress. I don't care if countries with socialized medicine have worse quality care, or wait times, or not as nice facilities. It isn't universally true but even if it is who cares? I'd happily bet that I would be a much healthier person, and so would many others, if getting sick wasn't a financial punishment, even with "worse" care
Our parking for $4usd total for the week, had an emergency c section, parking was all we paid and they gave us a huge baby box for free with a bunch of things like books, clothes, tooth brush and other toiletries for babies. We also have these pretty frequent compulsory appointments to make sure the kid is being looked after properly, I’m not sure if other countries do that, but it’s a great idea!
My first 2 cost us $3000. My last was sort of free, but that’s because I had hit my deductible and out of pocket (total $1500) before birth due to twice weekly non-stress tests. I would love to have the only bill for giving birth be sandwiches or parking.
My first born was an emergency C-section (amazing doctors) to deal with fetal distress on the due date. My second one was 6w early and spent a week in NICU and another two in transitional care to deal with Jaundice. The most amount of money I spent was in parking (a£15 for a week iirc) and petrol driving back and forth between the house and hospital. I also remember backing into a parking lot pillar because I was a bit sleep deprived, so that was another £100 to sort that out. Two childbirths involving very highly specialized medical professionals? Completely fucking free (at the point of consumption - I pay my taxes). I'm sure the USA system is better tho.
Mum had a collapse (iron deficiency), turned into pneumonia, into covid. 3 month stay. Money spent; parking and on the first night approx £80 on machine espresso (which was surprisingly decent) due to me having to spend the night roaming an empty hospital.
We paid a bit for a private room, but that was mostly covered by my wife’s insurance through work. Life is precious though.
Sure but are you allowed to have a gun to protect yourself from all the gun violence?
How much gun violence do you have in maternity wards in the US?! But yes, lots of guns here for hunting/sporting. Not for home defence because gun violence is virtually unknown compared to US levels.
>How much gun violence do you have in maternity wards in the US?! Lol honestly probably much more than average if our general gun violence trends carry over
I was just about to post the same thing. I live in Canada and when my kid was born I spent about 8 dollars on parking and $20 on sandwiches. My wife recovered in the hospital for 3 nights and we left with a nice care package full of diapers and swaddle cloths and stuff!
Basically the same here in Australia, although it also included a C-section after a 'natural' birth in a private birthing room (kinda like a generic hotel room but with a giant spa in the bathroom) didn't turn out as planned. Definitely a good feeling walking out and there isn't any kind of payment counter, even if you searched. Got a kid with a broken leg now. Same deal. Hospital, cast, crutches, multiple follow up sessions with the specialists, walk out afterwards and nobody blinks. And yeah, we all know it's not "free" because of taxes, but when you have an emergency it's sure as hell great to not have to reach into your pocket at all.
Aw man, uk here and we absolutely rage about having to pay parking fees lol.
The only solution to further reduce costs are government-mandated sandwiches, obviously
Mate you have expensive sandwiches. I think I spent $40 on parking and another $20 on Tim Hortons
I have 2 kids in US our total bill was a check for 40$ usd to cover parking at the facility on top of a breast pump, some blankets, and a car seat insert thing. We do pay about 160 dollars in insurance a month, though ( a little less that's current and rates were lower a couple of years ago)
The US system is hot festering garbage. BUT, I don't believe we can trust the US government to run a system either. They've proven over and over again that ANY government run system will be inefficient, expensive, and eventually used as political leverage in our two party system. We need to either overhaul our policy system (we do), or look at another option, like a government regulated private system. 1) evaluate and create a pricing system for all medical procedures (with a 5-10% pad for profit) 2) mandate that all healthcare providers operate within these costs 3) convert corporation payouts of healthcare into a tax that would fully fund all healthcare expenses (this would likely be less than they're currently paying) 4) eliminate insurance companies and individual healthcare costs The US pays significantly more nationally and individually per person for healthcare than any other country, and 90% of that blame lies on insurance companies and their insane profits and buying politicians.
Then what is the fucking answer Abby? The free market clearly hasn't provided here.
It has provided shareholder value. Do you even America bro?
Hear me out. What if we try deregulation one more time? You know. Just to be sure.
Still waiting on that trickle down golden shower I was promised as well…
"Tinkle down" is what I called it
It used to be called horse and sparrow. All I know is it all tastes like horseshit to me.
"Tinkle down" is what I called it
We tried 99% capitalism and everything has gone to shit. If we do 100% capitalism all the problems will be magically fixed!
Are you my parents?
Better couple that with tax cuts for the rich.
Nah. More higher-deducting the financial risk off insurance sellers' revenue and more different individual retail POS payment processing product initialisms that run on nothing more than tax avoidance and the intentional defunding of Social Security and Medicare should get it done. Give them another 3-4 decades to self-replicate and *bring down the 'cost' of health care ...*
This is one of the main facets of the internet as a medium that I fucking despise. Abby (and other Conservatives) can just sit there and effectively lie like this; *and no one can grill her and make her answer these questions*. There's no back and forth where someone can actually be *challenged* on the shit they say. THIS is why "a lie can make it halfway across the world, before the truth gets its pants on." Abby fucking KNOWS what the answers are, she hates all of them because they'll crush her who. So instead, she'll stochastically fan the flames of Conservative outrage, and suffer not even the consequence of admitting that she's a hypocritical fraud. This is lying as political speech; and it's the driving method that's killing our societies.
Yeah, her final answer will always amount to "well, why can't the poors just die? Then it wouldn't be so expensive!"
Then, as she or a loved one is dying, she can say, "No Dr. Face-eating-leopard. This wasn't supposed to happen to *ME*."
This shit pisses me off too. People can scream absurdities into the void, get tens of thousands of views, block all dissenting opinions, and every social media site behaves that way, making social media into this one-sided constant blast of nonsense. Even on Reddit there are a lot of curated communities with people being banned or having their posts removed for stepping out of line. Moderation is a massive black box with unknown people making unknown decisions. A lot of the public internet is just an awful medium for conversation now. There's Discord, but that's private, and very fragmented. Nothing has replaced classic PHPbb style forums in terms of conversation.
>Moderation is a massive black box with unknown people making unknown decisions. When every "punishment" is a permaban, it should he little wonder as to why people just make new accounts and show up a couple months later 🤷♀️ >Nothing has replaced classic PHPbb style forums in terms of conversation. Reddit is probably the closest we'll ever get, to that format. It doesn't make money; that's a big part of it.
>Reddit is probably the closest we'll ever get, to that format. It doesn't make money; that's a big part of it. Lack of money to run these things long term and lack of time or will to moderate are probably the biggest factors leading to the decay of communities. I don't think there are good answers to how to fix this problem without asking people to pay money, which isn't great either.
The answer is that kind hearted billionaires privately donate money to you specifically. That's not a joke. I knew a girl in high school who was a hardcore "libertarian" (IDK if she actually was or if that is what libertarianism is, that's just how she described herself). She wanted to kick the government out of everything and instead rely on "our community" for support. One example she gave was that people shouldn't give money to homeless shelters and instead a bunch people should all pitch in a bit of money to give one homeless person a house. And if you pointed out that what she just described is taxes, she said it was different because you're forced to pay taxes. When pointing out that most people would not give away their money unless they were forced to, she would say were mean and have no faith in our fellow human. To her, the only reason trickle down economics isn't working is because the government is taking all these taxes so the billionaires can't do their public good.
Co-operative?
That sounds suspiciously socialist to me.
Whatever doesn't involve her admitting she is wrong. Talked to some anti-teachers union folks a few years back who "wanted school funds to go to teachers and classroom, and for teachers to have more agency." Walking lessons on brainwashing.
Well, for one thing she’s conflating healthcare with insurance. No one ever said “let’s get rid of private hospitals.” In fact, the actual hands-on medical care has nothing to do with the debate about who should pay for it. She says “No, I don’t think the answer is government run health care,” but she doesn’t say what she thinks about government run insurance.
Magic………magic healthcare from mystical insurance companies
I don't know if Abby could tell us because she doesn't even seem to have a solid grasp of the actual issues. Abby said government *run* healthcare. Most conversations revolve around government *funded* healthcare. Abby may or may not be aware of the difference (I can't give her intelligence or her honesty the benefit of the doubt).
We take all those hippy liberal doctors telling me to get vaccinated and make them work on lower salaries by force. Cut red tape (best practices) and make healthcare a combination of witchcraft, faith healing, pseudoscience and gambling. Don't worry I am lucky, and have a good feeling about this. /S
Seriously it's got to be one or the other
The German system is neither. Not that it's perfect but there are many ways aside from government run and whatever the US is doing.
"I think that corporations should be able to charge whatever outrageous price they deem fit, but not to ME!"
It's truly astonishing.
nono see, its the fault of the barely existing regulations! If healthcare was totally unregulated we could have a wider field of providers and therefore the costs for the consumer would fall!
I'm sure my current insurance told me just that. You know, the one that makes me pay thousnads of $$$ each month and still barely covers anything? Any moment now, it will trickle down!
It also wouldn't hurt to give these corporations more tax cuts. The poor things can barely survive on their billions and billions of profits every year.
I think it's even dumber than egoism. Don't remember where I read it, but somebody made a test to sell MAGAts on public healthcare by using different words, like "free citizens making a regular donation to a common fund" something like that, and suddenly it was A-OK! "Public healthcare" => kneejerk dismissal "People helping each other out" => the American Way! Sure, let's reinvent the wheel because you "don't trust government". Except then it becomes government anyhow. Le sigh.
I mean, you only have to look at all the conservatives who put up a GoFundMe page to pay for their healthcare. It’s not the concept that they dislike, they just cannot stand the idea that *other* people would also benefit from public healthcare.
> they just cannot stand the idea that other people would also benefit from public healthcare. Definitely true and something I omitted above. The "better" system they envision would (try to) make sure only god-fearing 'muricans benefit. Which boils back down to plain egoism: it's only unfair if I don't get it, otherwise it's "pull yourself up by your bootsraps".
Someone did an “on the street” interview thing back when the ACA was moving through congress, and asked people which they preferred: Obamacare or the Affordable Care Act. You can probably guess the results. Vehement hate for Obamacare, but this ACA thing was sounding good to them.
I think you're exactly right, based upon her own wording (government run as opposed to government funded; that suggests she's still picturing death panels).
r/leopardsatemyface
And Esau is just going to blow his inheritance anyway
[For those who aren't getting the Biblical reference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau). I'll admit, I've never met someone named Esau before. It's not a common name like Jacob (his younger brother) and not exactly viewed in a positive light in The Bible. So you both need to read the book and also....not care?
Looking for this comment. You might as well nam someone “accident,” or “unloved.” It’s a super fucked up name to give someone.
I guess it's slightly better than "Cain".
I mean better to be Cain than Able…
Sure, it's nice not to be murdered, but being named after a famous murderer can't be great.
I have a relative named Dolores. The parents 100% knew it meant “sorrows” / “pain” and considered her birth unfortunate. People do fucked up things.
It's quite a common surname amongst certain demographics here in South Africa, but I've never seen it used as a first name.
Thank you for reminding me how incredibly evil so many of the characters in the bible are.
Hey, a guy's gotta eat.
I paid $0 for each of my kids when they were born. Not counting ordering take out for myself each time. That is because I have a union which gets us rather decent health insurance. The fact that the system works for me is not an argument in favor of the system. It simply begs the question: WHY THE F&#% DOESN'T EVERYONE GET THESE BENEFITS SIMPLY BY POOLING OUR RESOURCES COLLECTIVELY THROUGH A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM?
But that's communism! Think of the shareholders!! /s
How will the CEOs feed their families? It’s just not right.
And yachts! They cost a lot *and* require a lot of upkeep.
Literally thousands of dollars a day just to keep them seaworthy! And don’t get me started on the fuel costs to run them. That’s why I’m going to vote for the president who was in charge during a pandemic when oil companies literally had to give stock away because no one was using fuel. I don’t have a yacht *yet*, but I’m sure I will one day, and I just want to make sure I have favorable conditions, you know?
The existence of the socialist interstate shows the critical importance of being able to efficiently move goods and services. The existence of capitalist healthcare shows when it comes to the critical importance of staying alive and healthy, fuck you.
When it comes to healthcare, Americans are the ultimate cucks. You can't make that up. They do the same with unions. Can't cure stupid.
There was a recent discussion in R/fuckcars; it revealed that car insurance is a close second, compared to most other countries, even my super expensive Northern European home.
Those things are all linked. Part of the reason why car insurance is so expensive is because if you hit someone the damages are so ridiculously high, partly because of the insane healthcare costs. Which in turn are partly because of the insane costs for education, and so forth. If I hit some pedestrian and they break their leg that will cost my car insurance something like $10k for the hospital and the personal injury compensation plus maybe lost wages; in the US it could easily cost $30k and that doesn't even include personal injury compensation let alone lost wages. So obviously car insurance needs to be significantly more expensive in the US
> Which in turn are partly because of the insane costs for education health care costs are high for two primary reasons: * the "health care" industry inflating prices by adding a third party to be paid to every health care transaction * us tort law and precedent is steeply tilted against doctors and health care providers, and honestly due for some reform. as a result, malpractice insurance exists, and the "savings" are passed on to the consumer
Additionally, people who can't afford insurance still need healthcare, and often wait until their condition is more serious and more expensive to treat as a result. And since then they can't afford to pay for the healthcare, the cost of their treatment ends up passed along in the form of higher costs to make it up.
the phrase "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" holds true for medical care; unfortunately it's not health care companies bearing the burden for paying for the pounds of cure that the uninsured end up needing, so there's no real impetus to find a better solution
And people wonder why there's a sudden surge in home births...
My mom recently broke her ankle and had to go to the hospital. She needed 2 surgeries and a few months in a rehab center so she could walk again. A few days into her stay at the rehab clinic, we got the call that insurance ran out so she's getting kicked out. A 65 year old woman with an open fracture that left her foot dangling, and she getting told to go home and figure it out. That's ignoring the hefty medical bill we know is coming. And pop thinks we don't need socialized healthcare.
I keep seeing this stupid twitter account, another out there conspiracy moron reveling in controversial takes while rutting around in the outrage muck like the fascist pigs they are. For a second I thought it was benny boy's sister, another infamous idiot flaunting their trad wife opinions and whatever stupidity crosses their mind, but no that's classically abby. This christo fascist nutjob has....an interesting podcast with their fellow host AJ who....well is also a christo fascist nutjob. It's also remarkable how they're such ardent defenders of Israel yet rabid anti semites throughout their history(because of course they're pro-zionist christo fascists). Hell, we're talking about a guy with a pinned tweet >I say Christ is King because Christ is King. You say Christ is King because you hate the Jews. We are not the same. You know, the [infamous dog whistle that got candace owens fired](https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2024/march-web-only/christ-king-antisemitism-russell-moore-candace-owens.html) and nick fuentes fucking LOVES it. My point being: I can hardly find anything about these two tossers, but they have such amazing discussions on their podcast like, and from their most recent podcast episode >Did you know Pride Month is a four-thousand-year-old celebration of the goddess Ishtar? The LGBTQ movement knows and thinks this is good, actually. PJ & Abby talk about more signs of the return of the old gods and what that means for our society and the end times. Imagine, just imagine, taking people seriously who harp on about the "very real" dangers of ancient Mesopotamian deities. Also, and I can't stress this enough: [Ishtar is considered one of the Annunaki](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ishtar-Mesopotamian-goddess), another massive anti-Semitic dog whistle. And please, if anyone knows someone in the LGBTQ realm, please ask them how their Ishtar celebrations are coming along. There's been some stupid fucking opinions from these smooth brains regarding anti-LGBTQ accusations(they cause floods, they cause eclipses, they cause mass shootings and insurrections etc.) but the Ishtar thing? Man that's certainly up there. Considering how much these two worship alex "eat my neighbours" jones it's no surprise they come up with the dumbest opinions.
> This christo fascist nutjob has....an interesting podcast with their fellow host AJ who....well is also a christo fascist nutjob. It's also remarkable how they're such ardent defenders of Israel yet rabid anti semites throughout their history(because of course they're pro-zionist christo fascists). The current stance is contrarianism pure and simple, and in their dull minds it probably doesn't even clash with their more "traditional" antisemitism (world elites, yadda yadda). > You know, the infamous dog whistle that got candace owens fired and nick fuentes fucking LOVES it. That was a nice article. I bet many of the above would hate it if it wasn't clearly posted on a Christian website. I like how it doesn't exalt the crucifiction but displays it as the heinous act of a cruel imperialist government, carried out by sadistic numbskulls. The Romans as the first antisemitic trolls.
"Someone really needs to step in and make this cheaper." "...but, like, not the organization that exists solely to do that sort of thing. That's insanity." Fun fact, when my first kid was born I lived in NY and was in a very similar situation; decent insurance, deductible was still like $5k for the delivery. My wife didn't even use any pain meds. But in NY (at the time at least, haven't lived there for a bit now so it could be no longer the case) every pregnant person and newborn was automatically enrolled in Medicaid to ensure access to care. So my wife automatically had a Medicaid card, and it picked up the rest. Total bill: like $10 because the hospital did a "first meal as parents" thing and I had to pay for mine since I was not a patient.
UK here. Paid £0. I’m *sure* it’s not because of the NHS though /s
Canadian here. Also paid $0. Not sure why, couldn’t possibly be universal health care. Must be something else entirely.
I dunno man, the sandwiches in the shop at the hospital were a bit pricey. That could be it
But... But... *Wait times!* /s Sure, it's worth spending tens of thousands for common, necessary care because you can allegedly get it a little faster! (Conveniently ignoring how there *are* looooong wait times for all kinds of things in the US)
Wait, people have to pay to have babies? What kinda cruel country does this. Bringing new tax payers into the country should be free right.
I was pissed off at paying £4 for parking.
“Somethings gotta change… BUT NOT IN A WAY WHERE I ADMIT I WAS WRONG!”
"Government run healthcare?! No, I'd rather have healthcare run by soulless grifters trying to make as much money as possible in order to please their shareholders and maximize quarterly profits. What could go wrong?" It is absolutely painful how many Americans believe this wholeheartedly, no matter how often you point out that nearly every other developed country in the world have more efficient and effective systems than America. The American medical system is designed for one main purpose: making money for people investing in it. It's all about greed, at the expense of people's lives.
The Stockholm syndrome people feel for private Healthcare is bonkers. Pay through the nose to wait 3 months for an appointment, just to get there and see the doctor for less than 3 minutes on average, and then fight with insurance when they don't feel like servicing you despite tens of thousands of dollars paid already in premiums.
Imagine wanting a biblical name for your child, so you pick the one who got swindled out of his birthright and God's blessing by his younger brother.
"Laughs in european father of two"
The funniest thing is that we already have the system and the infrastructure to provide free healthcare to everyone. Funniest? Saddest. The saddest thing.
Is that even true? I mean $25K before insurance. There are plenty of people having babies. Are you telling me they are all billed $25K?
They are in the US... There seems to be a lot of numbers thrown around in a casual search, but every one of them is in 15-20k range for the American average cost. Varies regionally. We're a shithole country, man, an absolute hellhole.
My insurance thankfully covered our $75,000 bill. I had to be induced so I was in the hospital for a total of 5 days. My daughter was in for 3 (35 weeker). She had a neonatalogist which is a doctor for preemies/NICU babies. She was out of network so they were trying to stick us with the bill. I totally them I'm not paying thousands of dollars to an out of network doctor who was on call at the time of delivery. That's not my problem. Thankfully my insurance took care of that too.
I had a coworker who was hit with a $10k bill AFTER INSURANCE because the anaethesiologist was out-of-network so the insurance company only paid 20% of the cost. He'd called the hospital ahead of time and made sure all the possible OB/GYN doctors were in-network but he didn't think about anaethesiologists because the birth wasn't expected to be a c-section. BTW: Our company has excellent insurance. (This was a few years ago and there may be laws against this in-network/out-of-network nonsense within hospitals now.) Yeah, he had to pay over $10k out of pocket after all was said and done. You can probably gues what country I live in.
So what do these people think the answer is? Doctors and other HCWs work for free? Hospitals just stop paying their bills for lights and water? DME and Pharm companies donate equipment and medicine out of the goodness of their hearts? There is no solving the problem of American healthcare at this point without some kind of government intervention. Period. Until we accept that fact, let's not even pretend to have the conversation.
Maybe health insurance companies could be made to forgo exorbitant profits — you know, the kind that turned UnitedHealth executives, among others, into multimillionaires, even billionaires. And that’s what single-payer would do.
You're preaching to the choir here. I'm a HCW, and I'm all for single payer, a public option, ANYTHING that stops our healthcare system from collapsing around us, piece by piece. But all of that requires government intervention of some sort, and if there is no political will or public pressure to get these things done, then they won't get done. And as the original image shows, that's exactly what's happening: this person thinks Someone Should Do Something, but not the government, no no no. Well, who, then? Is BCBS going to waive her deductible out of the goodness of their hearts? No. These are the same type of people who rail against unions, then wonder why burger-flippers are making almost as much as tradesmen in some places. 🤔
Definitely. Government intervention would be required to get them to forgo any of those profits — sorry I wasn’t clearer that I’m agreeing with you!
Hating the symptoms of capitalism but loving capitalism is like hating excruciating pain but loving bone cancer.
To be fair, the problem *isn't* just "government run healthcare". You could keep it all private and have laws preventing exorbitant profit margins. It doesn't cost 25k to have a baby on the NHS, regardless of who is paying for it.
I was gonna say, he's not *entirely* wrong. He certainly ain't right, but the fact they're even trying to charge 25K pre-insurance for a natural process we quite literally, as a species, need to survive is fucking insane to start. We don't *just* need gov't healthcare, we need an entire restructuring of feckin *everything* let alone healthcare.
Come on, try it, you might like it! Rather than try something that may work, let's continue to try the system that is overpriced and denies people health care when they can't afford it.
Why is she naming her child after one of the villains of Genesis? (He’s actually a victim and a decent guy, but painted as the villain).
"OMG there's a nail in my eyeball! This is nuts! There shouldn't be a nail in my eye! And don't @ me with that "take the nail out of your eye" crap." The depth of the devotion to causing and keeping their own problems is really something. I mean, i guess having the same 4 problems your whole life does keep those 7 neurons from overloading 🤷♀️
There are so many middlemen (insurance companies, hospitals, etc) in the U.S. healthcare system taking their cut that prices have to be so high to accommodate all that profit.
Surely bombing more brown people is the answer.
She's in luck! Single payer healthcare is government run health *insurance* not healthcare, so we're all good!
Try telling her that. She knows better.
If you have to pay $5,000 why not just spend that $5,000 on a vacation conveniently close to the estimated time of birth and give birth in a civilized country for free then come home with a baby. I’d rather spend $5,000 on a vacation than giving it to a hospital
Doesn't really work like that, at least here in BC, Canada. If you're not a resident \[of Canada\], you're paying. (and sorting it out with your insurance later if need be)
Yeah, unfortunately it doesn’t work that way. If you aren’t a resident of the country you’re choosing to birth in and actually have their insurance, you’re still going to be paying for said birth. Their healthcare is free for residents due to the taxes that they pay - basically they’re ALL paying for everyone’s healthcare. So, if you spend $5,000 on a vacation to Canada/the UK/wherever, you’ll come home with a baby who has dual citizenship and a fairly hefty medical bill.
Oh, anecdote time. In 2008 my then girlfriend, now wife had an ectopic pregnancy surgically removed. Total cost, $20 for parking. In 2009 I broke my ankle playing roller hockey. From time of break to back home in a temporary cast was 3 hours. Total cost: $15 for a cab ride. in 2011, first child needed an emergency C-Section. From consent to delivery was about 15 minutes. Total cost. $20 for parking. In 2015 my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer on a Friday, and started her treatment on Monday. Total Cost: $0. I make around $120K per year and pay around $25K in income tax, plus a few grand at least in consumer taxes. US Healthcare is top-notch, if you can afford it. Our Canadian medical system has it flaws, but it's been there for when I've needed it.
I suffered from gall bladder issues for 13 years when I lived in the states because I couldn't afford to get the surgery for it. I moved to Canada, two weeks after my OHIP kicked in I had an attack, and had the surgery completed within 24 hours. I'm pretty sure that after 13 years of pretending nothing was wrong, it was at emergency status, or I might have waited a few months. But it cost me the price of the painkillers I bought for my recuperation time.
Two kids born in Canada. Didn't spend a dime. I socialism so hard.
Four kids born before the ACA, didn’t cost me anything. I’m a fan of the ACA in theory, but it did raise medical costs for the consumer.
Isn't this the same moron who was at the top of /r/LeopardsAteMyFace yesterday because she hates that there's nowhere for conservative trad women because the left doesn't want them and the right hates women?
Ha, nerd. My birth was free, due to being born on a military base in a military hospital to a military parent.
Wanting to name your kid Esau is a red flag
I don’t think it should be government run healthcare (like the VA). I think it should be government *paid* healthcare (like Medicare).
Despite all the complaints and legitimate issues, the VA actually performs a lot better than people think when you compare it to private insurance, and a lot of the problems it does have are because it is understaffed and underfunded. Unlimited funding for active military operations but once they're no longer active duty, they're just another budget line item to get cut.
Insurance prices and regulations will eventually force more government intervention and coverage in the industry. 30 years ago, when my son was born at St. Vincent's in NYC, I was a member of the Director's Guild. My then wife had a C section, was hospitalized in a private room for 4 days, had regular staff nurses and student nurses, a lactation consultant, and an Occupational Therapist to show her how to handle him (our son was nearly 10 pounds, my ex-wife was only about 5 feet tall and could not carry him for the first month because of her stitches). When she was released, we paid our out of pocket with a $20 and got change. It doesn't work like that any more.
Do these people even know about other countries? Here it would be insane to have to pay to give birth.
They don't have good insurance. My daughter was born six years ago, but we paid about 1000 for all combined services to get her home; and there were compliacations. It was great insurance, only good thing about that job. Heck, the employer even gave a monthly stipend to pay deductibles. But yes, the US healthcare system is insane! It's not the best in the would, and is unavailable for too many.
“Esau” is a heck of a choice for a baby name.
I don't know the ins and outs of how this works, as I don't live in New York State. But I had friends who waited to get married until after they had kids specifically because the man already had shit credit, while the woman was in nursing school, so they were able to register the births under the man's name, not pay the bills until they got written off by the hospital, and it wouldn't affect them as a family unit. Then they finally got married. Otherwise it would have been $35k a child.
We just need a good ~~king~~ billionaire to fix it for us. Please Elon!!!
It’s almost like healthcare shouldn’t be for profit.
Why is our healthcare worse and more expensive than every other modern country?!? /s
Private for-profit quasi-monopoly corporations are notorious for regulating themselves to the benefit of the customer! /s
"No, I don't want the only actual way to fix the problem, to fix the problem! I only want it magically fixed in a way that supports my shitty ideas and hate!"
She thinks “government run healthcare” means that the president is in the delivery room while she’s giving birth.
This system sucks. Now, I don't want to *change* anything, I just wanna whine.
am i going crazy or did i see this " Abby Libby" elsewhere on reddit today
"Someone should do something, but definitely not the people we collectively appointed to do things."
One of my idiot coworkers is okay with taxes going up to cap property taxes but not for Healthcare, while at the same time praising Canada's Healthcare system. What a joke.
To be fair, I don't know if hospitals should be charging that high in the first place. I'm no expert, granted, but if they're charging more than they should be owed, then in a way, she's right, just not for the reason she probably thinks she's right But at the same time, the government really should be stepping in when it gets to this point regardless, and probably should have *a very long time ago*
Surely it can't be the system that prioritizes profit above all else?
In the good old days the GQP is always yammering about, before state and federal government stepped in, insurance paid exactly zero for vaginal childbirth. It was considered an elective procedure. Things were far cheaper back then thank God, but my first child’s birth expenses were 100% on me, as were early childhood vaccinations, well baby care, birth control, etc.
I've seen a few dumb takes of this person today. It's she some new right wing trad-wife influencer?
Doctors shouldn’t be allowed to charge $450 a minute for surgery. Yet they do.
This is the second post from this person in one day on selfawarewolves. I'm starting to think she's a parody account.
It must be all that government regulation! /s
Self gaslighters are the weirdest fuckers online.
The answer is NOT universal health care. The answer is for people like that to go have births in their own bathtubs and die, while the rest of us have non-universal health care. Exclude them and only them, everyone else gets it.
Strictly speaking, universal single-payer health insurance isn't “government-run healthcare.“ Under the Canadian system, for example, medical facilities are independent; they just have to bill the government for everything.
"I will try nothing and I'm all out of ideas"
That's ALL cheap as fuck
Will any of these people ever, ever come to the realization that single-payer is not “government-run healthcare”? Nobody is proposing a national health service. Every other developed country on earth has figured this out and people don’t f*cking go bankrupt because of a medical issue. I am losing all hope.