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Why are you leaving it at 7v1? Saint, soul serpent, nightmare, and fiend are part of his strength as well.
It's really hard to judge currently exactly how strong sunny is, he's not exactly coming forward with what has exactly improved in his abilities after becoming a saint.
Like today's chapter revealed that not only does his attribute lord of shadows give him even better control of shadows than it did as a master of shadows, but it showed that the shadows actually want to serve him.
Also gotta consider how he is limiting his usage of Memories down to the absolute bare minimum, relying on his own strength more than anything else and still being capable of one tapping Great Beasts/Demons and making Nephis consider him someone truly deserving of respect after like 6 hours killing Asura’s.
Yet Nephis has to rely on the memories gathered from others while Sunny can simply use his own essence to make a sword of a similar caliber to Kinslayer. I would say Sunny has the absolute best utility of any Saint but Strongest is dependent on knowledge of your opponent so FOR NOW I would say Sunny could destroy other Saints with some elbow grease and motivation.
Soul serpent become wind flower take control of Morgan and every echo and make them kill themselves (or destroy their mind and replace it his which lead to the next part). After that serpent assume mountain King's form and plant dormant minions in the transcendent/great body harvested with the mind hex (also nightmare will put them to sleep so it will be even harder to resist the mind hex)
I mean, it would depend on the range her explosion would reach. It he isn’t fast enough, he’s getting hit straight on since there wouldn’t be any shadows to hide in.
Exactly even Nephis Trump card of that nuke is easily survivable with shadow step and would only knock her out other than that there's nothing she can do against a Sunny going all out with the intent to kill
Sunny seems the strongest since we know exactly what he is capable of. Every saint is certain to have a hidden ace or two. Mordred for example can have gods know how many created minions by now, and what bullshit he can pull memory/echo wise after 4 years of official great clan service with no one to share the spoils with.
I doubt G3 would be so incompetent as to make sunny obviously the strogest
No.
Nephis should be pretty much invincible in her full transformation, with 7 portions of power amplifying her. I doubt Sunny or Mordret could beat her out right, they'd need to wait for her essence to run out.
Mordret is as always very hard to kill. His reflections should be Supreme now, I bet he's built up a few. Though I imagine it's gotten far harder to create them since the 3rd nightmare.
Sunny steamrolls everyone else. But Sunny also has a glaring flaw. His step away from using an arsenal of memories gives others the possibilities that he doesn't have. I think he's going to make some soul bound memories to cover this... but as of now it's something to exploit.
Well, sunny can shadow step without losing essence now. And Unlike mordret who requires reflections to hide, sunny can hide in his own shadow, since his shadow remains regardless of the light. Nephis has no way of hurting him in that state. He could literally wait till she either runs out of essence or the can't take the pain anymore. The moment she removes her transformation, sunny can attack her with shadow manifestations without ever leaving the safety of shadow step.
Mordret would be harder, since the reflections can turn into sunny and attack hurt him in his incorporeal state. The fight could go either way depending on how many reflections he has.
Sunny could technically use the lantern to remove all light, so that mordret cannot hide in any reflective surface
I don't think that Neph can't hurt Sunny when he turns into a shadow. Her flames are literally called "Soul-flames" after all and have the ability to augment/ heal the soul, so it only makes sense that she can also cause soul damage with them
The thing I keep on repeating on this sub is, a transformed neph is at the very least 2 times a normal neph. So she's at least 16 times base neph. Base neph is probably stronger than base sunny. Sunny incarnation or enhancement at the most has 7 base sunny. It wouldn't even be a conversation unless sunny has some Trump cards
Also if sunny has 7 versions of himself 6 of them wont have a strong weapon, since there is only 1 serpent, plus his shadows if they are manifest then he cant use them to buff himself so he is way weaker than neph who is using all her soul cores to buff herself and then she is using a transcendence on top of that
Sunny is literally the master of running away... he can even sacrifice an avatar if he has too. he just runs away and attacks her when she doesn't have it up, and he wins bc she runs out of essence.
Probably closer to a sovereign than a startup saint considering he has an entire citadel, one supreme servant, two transcendent ones, two ascended ones, and a portion of shadow gods Domain.
yes, but it would also be very quick. even nephis would not be able to simultaneously defend 7 attacks, all from a swordsman equal if not better to her.
Unrelated but I just thought, so if jet’s transformation is to be ghost can the eccence strings(?) that sunny use to make memories hurt her in that form?
Nepis literally immortal as long as she has essence,and sunny going to lose essence real quick with 7 +eco n memories,since nephis doesn't keep any echos to herself sunny has the edge otherwise nephis
She also loses essence real quick, and we don't know how fast either of them lose essence. Besides, we know he can maintain 3 avatars without losing essence, so we could just have his main body use essence while his avatars fight her in melee with no techniques. Or he baits out her transformation and runs away until it ends.
Idk about against Nephis. And we don't know how strong any of the new saints are.
Sunny is strong sure, but his aspect is mostly utility focused. For every avatar he uses to fight, it takes away his enhancement benefit. Sure it'd strong, but it has a tradeoff. And we know that they are all connected in at least perception. So killing one of them could have a chain affect on them all and make him lose.
It was stated at the beginning of the arc nephis is considered the strongest, mainly due to her aspect. All the new saints are strong, but nowhere neat their level.
That was mainly my point. But that ranking I believe was also based on public perception. Nephis and Morgan being considered the strongest saints out there basically. Since sunny isn't a saints that's known to the public idk how accurate that I'd here, bur still I agree she's probably stronger depending on circumstances
Neph thinks of the Fiend as “troublesome”, he’s a supreme devil.
Cassie can wipe a brain, presumable though a vessel like mordret’s.
Mordret can copy a saints power.
Jet is jet.
they are all crazy powerful, sunny would win against all but cassie and jet simply because he’s near unkillable.
Neph and Sunny have similar feats - I don't see why Fiend would be much trouble to Sunny either. Also, that was just based on a basic visual inspection and she doesn't know what Fiend can do.
Sunny has a much stronger soul, we've seen how easily he resists Mordret, I doubt Cassie could do to much. Plus, Sunny is fateless so she can't see anything in the future.
He easily outlasts Jet, she needs food to live so he either just constantly mortally injures her until she runs out.
They would all be difficult, but he still wins.
We haven’t seen 7 Fold Shadow Sunny either
How strong would that boost be
G3 actually was smart with separating him because it somewhat limits his strength for now
He can’t really
There is no way he will abandon Rain as long as she’s in the Spell, so that shadow isn’t going anywhere
He can’t abandon his fort with the war on the horizon so that’s out
& the Emporium Sunny is the real him.
@ best he can pull an extra from their duties but there’s gonna be a minimum of 3 Active Sunny’s
Why wouldn't he pull one from Rain? If he dies, she isn't going to be protected anyways. He can abandon his fort, it's not likely they will move during the short period of the fight. And, anvil can't move without Nephis. He can still pull out all of his 6 clones or shadows.
Using his saint ability splits his strength, because he can’t augment himself with his shadows, so he doesn’t just walk all over Neph. Does he win? Yeah. Probably,
But he doesn’t have 7 full power Sunny’s.
He isn’t equal to Neph with 1 body because a 1v7 would reduce the strength of each of his bodies since he would have no augmentations. Also I do not think he is equipped to deal with Neph going nuclear in a 1v1
? That would defeat the purpose of fighting Neph. The point is he is still number two for combat because he simply doesn’t have the versatility Neph has. She has more augmentations, an elemental advantage, sorcery of names, busted regeneration, and the ability to go nuclear. She can fight him close range and has a big advantage fighting him from afar. He can’t use shadow step because she can disperse his shadows, he lacks solid soul damage since he lost cruel sight and can’t damage her shadow. Overall she just hard counters him. The only two issues for her are his lack of true name and Shadows, extreme diff fight either way
How exactly does she disperse shadows miles away, behind rocks or buildings? And you can't say they fight in an arena, because then you would just be setting him up for failure.
There’s nothing stopping him from fleeing but that isn’t exactly going to win him the fight especially with few great long ranged options. My point was shadow step is ingrained into his transcendent battle art and cannot be actually applied to close combat where it is most useful
She can't keep up the flashlight technique forever, it'd be too much drain on her essence. He's also just straight up faster than her, but they do have about equal swordsmanship, which would be required for him to win. He doesn't have a huge ranged arsenal, so it would ultimately end in a close range battle. However, Nephis (probably) doesn't have the practice in a ranged weapon like Sunny does, and he could have Saint just use a bow.
Well you forget that the other Saints also have a transformation. Especially Nephis turning incorporeal robs Sunny have doing any damage to her as he doesn't possess any way of eg damaging her soul.
Yeah he’s definitely more powerful than any saint but you do have to remember his limits. I’m not sure if sunny could handle a 7v1 for long it’s more plausible to say 3v1 plus his echos. There’s also the possibility that damage to his shadows hurts his soul directly so it probably wouldn’t be too advantageous to fight with 7 of himself unless he’s absolutely sure that he needs too. Fighting like that would also be a massive drain on his mental strength and essence so it has to be a last resort kind of ability; kind of like and ultimate. Let’s say he fights full strength nephis, using up so much of his essence to fight her with clones would be pointless since she has crowd controlling abilities and healing. Nephis is definitely the only person on his level that would give him a run for his money. Effie and Kai would also be troublesome with their transformation abilities. Jet would be a terrible match with his clones, I feel like she could instantly kill one if she lands a hit. His cohort’s abilities are strong enough to make a 7v1 pointless and draining. He’s gonna be better off using one body and his echos to fight. More essence saved for truly dire situations. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION I COULD BE WRONG
1. 3v1 with echoes is much more plausible buy 7v1 is just more menacing which is why I put that in specific.
2. Damage to his shadows doesn't hurt his soul, only destruction of them. If it did, he wouldn't be able to use them to block attacks/augment weapons as easily.
I could also see Cassie being troublesome, but she must have some weakness otherwise I don't see how she would ever die unless somebody of a higher rank decided to kill her.
My read on strength at this level is that combat is entirely situational. Meaning "who would win in a fight" is almost entirely answered by "how and why are they fighting".
Although Sunny had 7 Saint forms, he doesn't have a transformation. And that is no small thing - a transformed saying is considered a force of war. So, it's not 1v7, it's 1+v7 - the 1+ is transformed, far more powerful than a 'base' Saint. Of course, Sunny had Shadow Shell, comparable to a transformation but far more flexible. The Shell costs more essence, meaning he'd lose an extended fight.
Straight 1v1 sword duel, Sunny versus Nephis? Advantage Nephis. She's a better duelist, with more Memories (thanks, Anvil).
Wilderness fight vs Effie? We haven't seen Effie's transformed form, but my read is that it's a monster, a la Godzilla. Sunny simply doesn't have a sword big enough. Then again, she can't really catch him. Call it a draw.
Jet Li is one of the few who can strike Sunny directly. So it's really a case of who has a clear shot first, so I'm going with Advantage Sunny.
Too many others simply keep their cards close to their chest. Transformations, emergency memories, advanced attributes, techniques...
It's not about power at this stage. It's about information.
Your point is correct but your argument is flawed. Yes I believe Sunny can beat Nephis, let's establish that. However it's not because of using his shadows. If anything, using his shadows by splitting them to that extent screws him over... 7 beasts v 1 titan? All 7 of those beasts using the same essence pool? Remember it's division not multiplication.
Yes he is.
But not just with One of his bodies.
They might be each at peak Saint level but there are Saints at that level and above. His peak would still be his core body + all seven shadows used to boost himself.
Also he's not omnipotent, no matter how jack of all trades he appears; All 7 of him and his whole Shadow army can't do shit against one single Sacred Titan level no matter what while Nephis can (barely).
Fateless is the greatest boon to hide his informations and abilities for now. As they say, if your enemy know you, they can plan best how to take you down. Sunny proved that but it can go the other way around too.
Meaning:
His elemental mastery, especialy the soul attack attribute are shit, his long range ones are next to useless. (The shadow spears were useless toys used just as distraction against a slow target). Mobility of shadow jump is good but not working in spatially locked space.
On the other side he's weak to divine level soul damage since all bodies share the same soul. He can't heal from that easily nor fast and completely losing a Shadow to that would be a permanent loss imo. And the stronger the foes the closer they get to peak divinity fueled attacks, he'd be next to defenseless to that. Sunny's Ember of divinity clearly needs a boost, Weaver's relics must be found soon.
Neph is stronger from a pure combat perspective. Sunny has a lot of tricks up his sleeve, like shadow dance, manifestations and step. Sunny is a combat focused Jack of all trades. Nephis is a combat focused warrior. Neph has a slight edge, but Sunny is more versatile and , imo, intelligent. With his echoes he for sure wins.
Each clone is the equivalent of a single transcendent soul though. Not to mention there is no way Sunny could control more than two clones in a fight against Nephis. It's one thing to have a clone making food while the other fights Nephis, but to actually fight her properly he would not be able to run three of himself at that level. Not to mention that in a fight against some truly powerful and skilled, numbers don't mean much. There are some tricks he could pull with that, but augmenting himself is the best path in a duel with someone as good as Nephis and she's gonna be doing the same thing with her souls.
Maybe, but it depends heavily on the opponent’s aspect and abilities. In a fight with only skill and essence augmentation, maybe he can beat Nephis, who is regarded as the strongest saint. But if Nephis decided to go nuclear, what the fuck is Sunny gonna do about that? She literally has cheat codes to nuke everyone so she still wins. I think he is easily the second strongest and can match Nephis in terms of skill, but in a fight to the death I think he loses
He doesn't have a true name so it gets nerfed. Plus, he can reinforce his bodies with shadows still, or just teleport far enough away it doesn't affect him.
It was stated earlier their swordsmanship is about equal, and Sunny is said to be fairly fast, and he can teleport. And when did it say he has to fully augment himself to be equal? So far, he's been shown to be on par with nephis and he's using no shadows to augment himself. Plus, she just used a soul core so he has that advantage too.
No, cause sunny is at 6 cores and so is she now. Nephis strength augment in the forgotten shore was stronger than his, but she had more cores. So it's likely similar. And when they dueled in godsgrave it clearly said she didn't use her aspect either. She can use 6 cores of power, and heal. He can't. No way he wins with no augment.
I'm not? You said 1 sunny is roughly equal to Nephis. That's only true if she doesn't augment. So in a real fight, she would augment and he would have to too. But if he does, then he can't use those shadows as avatars. So no extra sunnies. Or very few at least.
Probably 2 clones with the rest augmenting his body. Keep in mind, he can always sacrifice a shadow or move them between his clones, so he can just cycle out. His main body attacks and his clones harass her and make her use more essence to defend.
Oh yeah, of course. It's just that with someone like Nephis, if they get a certain amount stronger/faster than the enemy then numbers don't really matter. So a mix is probably best.
Like literally the author states that neph has the strongest divine aspect of the three we still have a sub that will keep saying no aspect wise sunny is stronger.
Can sunny kill neph sure if the author wants but that’s becaue of his cunning and resourcefulness not because of his aspect strength.
Besides that you forget the power of legacy clans mordrets sister was shown to have a arsenal of echoes which I doubt any normal saint would have the power to fight and that was when she was a master now she is a saint with the backing of her father I doubt she is any less strong than them on a 1v1 scenario of direct combat
So you just said that in a 1v1, aspect strength is all that matters and you implied that cunning and resourcefulness would be cheating? that's a huge part of his character. And right now, most of his echoes are likely more powerful than anything nephis has.
No I didn’t say aspect strength is all that matters and cunning and resourceful is cheating, you misunderstood
I said aspect wise neph is the strongest that’s stated by the author.
You are talking about that just because he can get 7 clones of himself (which is part of his aspect ) he is the strongest saint - this is not correct - nephs aspect has way more destructive power while mordret himself can infect many saints and make all of them be himself ( as seen by his corrupted self in the third nightmare where all the soldiers in derge were him)
I personally find these post of whether sunny can beat neph or mordret not really helpful because 1 it’s Sunny’s story not neph or mordrets and 2 if author decided sunny will lose in a fight with neph he is gonna make that happen and if he decided sunny is gonna win that’s what he is gonna do so all this speculation doesn’t really get you anywhere not that author will make sunny fight neph to the death to show readers who really was the strongest either way
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Why are you leaving it at 7v1? Saint, soul serpent, nightmare, and fiend are part of his strength as well. It's really hard to judge currently exactly how strong sunny is, he's not exactly coming forward with what has exactly improved in his abilities after becoming a saint. Like today's chapter revealed that not only does his attribute lord of shadows give him even better control of shadows than it did as a master of shadows, but it showed that the shadows actually want to serve him.
Also gotta consider how he is limiting his usage of Memories down to the absolute bare minimum, relying on his own strength more than anything else and still being capable of one tapping Great Beasts/Demons and making Nephis consider him someone truly deserving of respect after like 6 hours killing Asura’s. Yet Nephis has to rely on the memories gathered from others while Sunny can simply use his own essence to make a sword of a similar caliber to Kinslayer. I would say Sunny has the absolute best utility of any Saint but Strongest is dependent on knowledge of your opponent so FOR NOW I would say Sunny could destroy other Saints with some elbow grease and motivation.
Morgan shows up to the battle with 30 echos (Sunny dies to Anvils bank account)
Soul serpent become wind flower take control of Morgan and every echo and make them kill themselves (or destroy their mind and replace it his which lead to the next part). After that serpent assume mountain King's form and plant dormant minions in the transcendent/great body harvested with the mind hex (also nightmare will put them to sleep so it will be even harder to resist the mind hex)
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Oh, I think she'd rather enjoy it ;)).
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She's gunning for 2 at least
Nah, issoke she can heal and she's used to pain...
Could he just.....shadow step away? From what we've seen, neph has to take a little bit of time to go lightbulb mode
I mean, it would depend on the range her explosion would reach. It he isn’t fast enough, he’s getting hit straight on since there wouldn’t be any shadows to hide in.
He doesn't have a true name so the explosion will be weakee
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It will be something like the twilight nuke
Yeah but if she loses a soul core and he doesn't die, he just runs around her until her transformation ends, easy win for my king.
“Absolutely roll her with 7” There’s a meme template for that
Exactly even Nephis Trump card of that nuke is easily survivable with shadow step and would only knock her out other than that there's nothing she can do against a Sunny going all out with the intent to kill
Sunny seems the strongest since we know exactly what he is capable of. Every saint is certain to have a hidden ace or two. Mordred for example can have gods know how many created minions by now, and what bullshit he can pull memory/echo wise after 4 years of official great clan service with no one to share the spoils with. I doubt G3 would be so incompetent as to make sunny obviously the strogest
No. Nephis should be pretty much invincible in her full transformation, with 7 portions of power amplifying her. I doubt Sunny or Mordret could beat her out right, they'd need to wait for her essence to run out. Mordret is as always very hard to kill. His reflections should be Supreme now, I bet he's built up a few. Though I imagine it's gotten far harder to create them since the 3rd nightmare. Sunny steamrolls everyone else. But Sunny also has a glaring flaw. His step away from using an arsenal of memories gives others the possibilities that he doesn't have. I think he's going to make some soul bound memories to cover this... but as of now it's something to exploit.
Well, sunny can shadow step without losing essence now. And Unlike mordret who requires reflections to hide, sunny can hide in his own shadow, since his shadow remains regardless of the light. Nephis has no way of hurting him in that state. He could literally wait till she either runs out of essence or the can't take the pain anymore. The moment she removes her transformation, sunny can attack her with shadow manifestations without ever leaving the safety of shadow step. Mordret would be harder, since the reflections can turn into sunny and attack hurt him in his incorporeal state. The fight could go either way depending on how many reflections he has. Sunny could technically use the lantern to remove all light, so that mordret cannot hide in any reflective surface
I don't think that Neph can't hurt Sunny when he turns into a shadow. Her flames are literally called "Soul-flames" after all and have the ability to augment/ heal the soul, so it only makes sense that she can also cause soul damage with them
he also has one of the strongest if not the strongest soul, so it would be nerfed even more.
The thing I keep on repeating on this sub is, a transformed neph is at the very least 2 times a normal neph. So she's at least 16 times base neph. Base neph is probably stronger than base sunny. Sunny incarnation or enhancement at the most has 7 base sunny. It wouldn't even be a conversation unless sunny has some Trump cards
Because of that capitalization it makes it seem like he’s going to whip out some overpriced NFT’s and throw them at her.
💀
😂
Also if sunny has 7 versions of himself 6 of them wont have a strong weapon, since there is only 1 serpent, plus his shadows if they are manifest then he cant use them to buff himself so he is way weaker than neph who is using all her soul cores to buff herself and then she is using a transcendence on top of that
Sunny is literally the master of running away... he can even sacrifice an avatar if he has too. he just runs away and attacks her when she doesn't have it up, and he wins bc she runs out of essence.
Yes he is and there is no debate here
Probably closer to a sovereign than a startup saint considering he has an entire citadel, one supreme servant, two transcendent ones, two ascended ones, and a portion of shadow gods Domain.
Yeah, that's why it doesn't have any tension
?? Bro almost died to a cursed thing 2 chapters ago and has the looming threat of 2 sovereigns just in a chill arc rn
That cursed thing is a great example. Of needing more threat because of a lack of tension. It's power creep bro
Essence.
yes, but it would also be very quick. even nephis would not be able to simultaneously defend 7 attacks, all from a swordsman equal if not better to her.
Unrelated but I just thought, so if jet’s transformation is to be ghost can the eccence strings(?) that sunny use to make memories hurt her in that form?
Nepis literally immortal as long as she has essence,and sunny going to lose essence real quick with 7 +eco n memories,since nephis doesn't keep any echos to herself sunny has the edge otherwise nephis
She also loses essence real quick, and we don't know how fast either of them lose essence. Besides, we know he can maintain 3 avatars without losing essence, so we could just have his main body use essence while his avatars fight her in melee with no techniques. Or he baits out her transformation and runs away until it ends.
Idk about against Nephis. And we don't know how strong any of the new saints are. Sunny is strong sure, but his aspect is mostly utility focused. For every avatar he uses to fight, it takes away his enhancement benefit. Sure it'd strong, but it has a tradeoff. And we know that they are all connected in at least perception. So killing one of them could have a chain affect on them all and make him lose.
It was stated at the beginning of the arc nephis is considered the strongest, mainly due to her aspect. All the new saints are strong, but nowhere neat their level.
That was mainly my point. But that ranking I believe was also based on public perception. Nephis and Morgan being considered the strongest saints out there basically. Since sunny isn't a saints that's known to the public idk how accurate that I'd here, bur still I agree she's probably stronger depending on circumstances
Neph thinks of the Fiend as “troublesome”, he’s a supreme devil. Cassie can wipe a brain, presumable though a vessel like mordret’s. Mordret can copy a saints power. Jet is jet. they are all crazy powerful, sunny would win against all but cassie and jet simply because he’s near unkillable.
Neph and Sunny have similar feats - I don't see why Fiend would be much trouble to Sunny either. Also, that was just based on a basic visual inspection and she doesn't know what Fiend can do. Sunny has a much stronger soul, we've seen how easily he resists Mordret, I doubt Cassie could do to much. Plus, Sunny is fateless so she can't see anything in the future. He easily outlasts Jet, she needs food to live so he either just constantly mortally injures her until she runs out. They would all be difficult, but he still wins.
We haven’t seen 7 Fold Shadow Sunny either How strong would that boost be G3 actually was smart with separating him because it somewhat limits his strength for now
He can just pull his shadows back into himself he's actually going to be much stronger it doesn't limit anything.
He can’t really There is no way he will abandon Rain as long as she’s in the Spell, so that shadow isn’t going anywhere He can’t abandon his fort with the war on the horizon so that’s out & the Emporium Sunny is the real him. @ best he can pull an extra from their duties but there’s gonna be a minimum of 3 Active Sunny’s
Why wouldn't he pull one from Rain? If he dies, she isn't going to be protected anyways. He can abandon his fort, it's not likely they will move during the short period of the fight. And, anvil can't move without Nephis. He can still pull out all of his 6 clones or shadows.
Using his saint ability splits his strength, because he can’t augment himself with his shadows, so he doesn’t just walk all over Neph. Does he win? Yeah. Probably, But he doesn’t have 7 full power Sunny’s.
He isn’t equal to Neph with 1 body because a 1v7 would reduce the strength of each of his bodies since he would have no augmentations. Also I do not think he is equipped to deal with Neph going nuclear in a 1v1
he just runs away. He could always use less clones.
? That would defeat the purpose of fighting Neph. The point is he is still number two for combat because he simply doesn’t have the versatility Neph has. She has more augmentations, an elemental advantage, sorcery of names, busted regeneration, and the ability to go nuclear. She can fight him close range and has a big advantage fighting him from afar. He can’t use shadow step because she can disperse his shadows, he lacks solid soul damage since he lost cruel sight and can’t damage her shadow. Overall she just hard counters him. The only two issues for her are his lack of true name and Shadows, extreme diff fight either way
How exactly does she disperse shadows miles away, behind rocks or buildings? And you can't say they fight in an arena, because then you would just be setting him up for failure.
There’s nothing stopping him from fleeing but that isn’t exactly going to win him the fight especially with few great long ranged options. My point was shadow step is ingrained into his transcendent battle art and cannot be actually applied to close combat where it is most useful
She can't keep up the flashlight technique forever, it'd be too much drain on her essence. He's also just straight up faster than her, but they do have about equal swordsmanship, which would be required for him to win. He doesn't have a huge ranged arsenal, so it would ultimately end in a close range battle. However, Nephis (probably) doesn't have the practice in a ranged weapon like Sunny does, and he could have Saint just use a bow.
Well you forget that the other Saints also have a transformation. Especially Nephis turning incorporeal robs Sunny have doing any damage to her as he doesn't possess any way of eg damaging her soul.
he just runs until she runs out and he wins easily
Yeah he’s definitely more powerful than any saint but you do have to remember his limits. I’m not sure if sunny could handle a 7v1 for long it’s more plausible to say 3v1 plus his echos. There’s also the possibility that damage to his shadows hurts his soul directly so it probably wouldn’t be too advantageous to fight with 7 of himself unless he’s absolutely sure that he needs too. Fighting like that would also be a massive drain on his mental strength and essence so it has to be a last resort kind of ability; kind of like and ultimate. Let’s say he fights full strength nephis, using up so much of his essence to fight her with clones would be pointless since she has crowd controlling abilities and healing. Nephis is definitely the only person on his level that would give him a run for his money. Effie and Kai would also be troublesome with their transformation abilities. Jet would be a terrible match with his clones, I feel like she could instantly kill one if she lands a hit. His cohort’s abilities are strong enough to make a 7v1 pointless and draining. He’s gonna be better off using one body and his echos to fight. More essence saved for truly dire situations. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION I COULD BE WRONG
1. 3v1 with echoes is much more plausible buy 7v1 is just more menacing which is why I put that in specific. 2. Damage to his shadows doesn't hurt his soul, only destruction of them. If it did, he wouldn't be able to use them to block attacks/augment weapons as easily. I could also see Cassie being troublesome, but she must have some weakness otherwise I don't see how she would ever die unless somebody of a higher rank decided to kill her.
My read on strength at this level is that combat is entirely situational. Meaning "who would win in a fight" is almost entirely answered by "how and why are they fighting". Although Sunny had 7 Saint forms, he doesn't have a transformation. And that is no small thing - a transformed saying is considered a force of war. So, it's not 1v7, it's 1+v7 - the 1+ is transformed, far more powerful than a 'base' Saint. Of course, Sunny had Shadow Shell, comparable to a transformation but far more flexible. The Shell costs more essence, meaning he'd lose an extended fight. Straight 1v1 sword duel, Sunny versus Nephis? Advantage Nephis. She's a better duelist, with more Memories (thanks, Anvil). Wilderness fight vs Effie? We haven't seen Effie's transformed form, but my read is that it's a monster, a la Godzilla. Sunny simply doesn't have a sword big enough. Then again, she can't really catch him. Call it a draw. Jet Li is one of the few who can strike Sunny directly. So it's really a case of who has a clear shot first, so I'm going with Advantage Sunny. Too many others simply keep their cards close to their chest. Transformations, emergency memories, advanced attributes, techniques... It's not about power at this stage. It's about information.
Your point is correct but your argument is flawed. Yes I believe Sunny can beat Nephis, let's establish that. However it's not because of using his shadows. If anything, using his shadows by splitting them to that extent screws him over... 7 beasts v 1 titan? All 7 of those beasts using the same essence pool? Remember it's division not multiplication.
Yes he is. But not just with One of his bodies. They might be each at peak Saint level but there are Saints at that level and above. His peak would still be his core body + all seven shadows used to boost himself. Also he's not omnipotent, no matter how jack of all trades he appears; All 7 of him and his whole Shadow army can't do shit against one single Sacred Titan level no matter what while Nephis can (barely). Fateless is the greatest boon to hide his informations and abilities for now. As they say, if your enemy know you, they can plan best how to take you down. Sunny proved that but it can go the other way around too. Meaning: His elemental mastery, especialy the soul attack attribute are shit, his long range ones are next to useless. (The shadow spears were useless toys used just as distraction against a slow target). Mobility of shadow jump is good but not working in spatially locked space. On the other side he's weak to divine level soul damage since all bodies share the same soul. He can't heal from that easily nor fast and completely losing a Shadow to that would be a permanent loss imo. And the stronger the foes the closer they get to peak divinity fueled attacks, he'd be next to defenseless to that. Sunny's Ember of divinity clearly needs a boost, Weaver's relics must be found soon.
especially after nephis burning out one of her cores, i think he surpasses nephis in sheer strength
Neph is stronger from a pure combat perspective. Sunny has a lot of tricks up his sleeve, like shadow dance, manifestations and step. Sunny is a combat focused Jack of all trades. Nephis is a combat focused warrior. Neph has a slight edge, but Sunny is more versatile and , imo, intelligent. With his echoes he for sure wins.
I'm talking about clones not echoes he easily wins without his echoes, but with them he wins by even more.
Each clone is the equivalent of a single transcendent soul though. Not to mention there is no way Sunny could control more than two clones in a fight against Nephis. It's one thing to have a clone making food while the other fights Nephis, but to actually fight her properly he would not be able to run three of himself at that level. Not to mention that in a fight against some truly powerful and skilled, numbers don't mean much. There are some tricks he could pull with that, but augmenting himself is the best path in a duel with someone as good as Nephis and she's gonna be doing the same thing with her souls.
Maybe, but it depends heavily on the opponent’s aspect and abilities. In a fight with only skill and essence augmentation, maybe he can beat Nephis, who is regarded as the strongest saint. But if Nephis decided to go nuclear, what the fuck is Sunny gonna do about that? She literally has cheat codes to nuke everyone so she still wins. I think he is easily the second strongest and can match Nephis in terms of skill, but in a fight to the death I think he loses
He doesn't have a true name so it gets nerfed. Plus, he can reinforce his bodies with shadows still, or just teleport far enough away it doesn't affect him.
Equal to nephis with 1 body? No? You recall he has to augment himself to fight nephis equally right? And it requires his shadows to do so???
It was stated earlier their swordsmanship is about equal, and Sunny is said to be fairly fast, and he can teleport. And when did it say he has to fully augment himself to be equal? So far, he's been shown to be on par with nephis and he's using no shadows to augment himself. Plus, she just used a soul core so he has that advantage too.
No, cause sunny is at 6 cores and so is she now. Nephis strength augment in the forgotten shore was stronger than his, but she had more cores. So it's likely similar. And when they dueled in godsgrave it clearly said she didn't use her aspect either. She can use 6 cores of power, and heal. He can't. No way he wins with no augment.
If he's not augmenting, she can't either. Why are you restricting Sunny and not Nephis?
I'm not? You said 1 sunny is roughly equal to Nephis. That's only true if she doesn't augment. So in a real fight, she would augment and he would have to too. But if he does, then he can't use those shadows as avatars. So no extra sunnies. Or very few at least.
Probably 2 clones with the rest augmenting his body. Keep in mind, he can always sacrifice a shadow or move them between his clones, so he can just cycle out. His main body attacks and his clones harass her and make her use more essence to defend.
I think there's merit to that. As long as he uses enough to keep up with her the rest can play harass. Now THAT I could see working
Ngl I wasn't thinking with 7v1 shit but at first, it does seem more powerful.
Oh yeah, of course. It's just that with someone like Nephis, if they get a certain amount stronger/faster than the enemy then numbers don't really matter. So a mix is probably best.
Like literally the author states that neph has the strongest divine aspect of the three we still have a sub that will keep saying no aspect wise sunny is stronger. Can sunny kill neph sure if the author wants but that’s becaue of his cunning and resourcefulness not because of his aspect strength. Besides that you forget the power of legacy clans mordrets sister was shown to have a arsenal of echoes which I doubt any normal saint would have the power to fight and that was when she was a master now she is a saint with the backing of her father I doubt she is any less strong than them on a 1v1 scenario of direct combat
So you just said that in a 1v1, aspect strength is all that matters and you implied that cunning and resourcefulness would be cheating? that's a huge part of his character. And right now, most of his echoes are likely more powerful than anything nephis has.
No I didn’t say aspect strength is all that matters and cunning and resourceful is cheating, you misunderstood I said aspect wise neph is the strongest that’s stated by the author. You are talking about that just because he can get 7 clones of himself (which is part of his aspect ) he is the strongest saint - this is not correct - nephs aspect has way more destructive power while mordret himself can infect many saints and make all of them be himself ( as seen by his corrupted self in the third nightmare where all the soldiers in derge were him) I personally find these post of whether sunny can beat neph or mordret not really helpful because 1 it’s Sunny’s story not neph or mordrets and 2 if author decided sunny will lose in a fight with neph he is gonna make that happen and if he decided sunny is gonna win that’s what he is gonna do so all this speculation doesn’t really get you anywhere not that author will make sunny fight neph to the death to show readers who really was the strongest either way