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uj/ Yeah, people like to bring up Yoshi's New Island and Balan Wonderworld as gotchas, but that's ONE bad game out of maybe 10-16 of them. Dunno about Yoshi's New Island since I've never played it, but I think people are exaggerating about it.
Also ignoring that Balan Wonderworld's failure was mostly on Yuji Naka/Square Enix's hands.
Aren't Sonic fans the ones who love to say "don't blame the devs"?
the funny thing is that is ok to put Balan or Arzest in general for those kind of people
but the moment you say the ones that made Sonic rush also made Sonic 4 they either get super angry or defensive... or just stop writing to you
I mean, except for the Sonic 4 music argument, I agree with all of this, people mainly complain about Sonic 4’s music cause of the instrumentation, not the actual melodies themselves
Yeah, there's this one noise (I refuse to acknowledge it as a note) in particular that's supposed to simulate a particular quirk of the Genesis soundchip, and it just sounds like ear cancer instead. Senoue uses it constantly, and it ruins his work.
~~The dude even used it for Sonic Origins to re-orchestrate the Sonic 3 prototype tracks, despite the fact that the prototype tracks already existed in the Genesis sound library that's emulated in the rest of the collection. Bizarre.~~ Nope, I remembered this incorrectly.
False. The prototype tracks in Origins are from very old recordings that predate the November prototypes. They're what the S&K Collection MIDIs are based on. The only song Jun Senoue made for Origins was super sonic.
Except this is a classic Sonic game, and every composer in this game adapted their sound for that. The music still has to actually fit the theme of the game.
Yet no one has been able to explain *why* they dislike it.
Sonic 4 Episode II used completely different instruments from Ep.I, they still didn't like it.
Sonic Forces recorded it's music from **real hardware**, they didn't like that.
And Sonic Origins straight-up used old 3&K recordings from 1993. They didn't like that either.
So I'm convinced Sonic fans will just hate everything that isn't SA2 buttrock or Sonic CD. They're not worth being catered towards.
I'll be real. Reading this comment, I was surprised. I'd never heard these claims before. It might not be well-known if Sonic 4 Episode II didn't use the same instruments as Episode I, or even that Forces used real hardware. I'd actually love to hear more about that if you know more, or maybe I'll just look up some interviews myself.
I *will* say that I've heard it said before that people believed that Superstars in particular was using the same instruments as Sonic 4, and I'm not sure if that's true or not and you didn't address it. But in the case of both Sonic 4 episodes, the Sonic Forces classic stages, and Sonic Superstars... it might not help or even be coincidence that some of the most poor music goes with some of the most poor gameplay. Like I think mileage will vary the most on Superstars, but it's definitely those tracks which "feel" the most like Sonic 4 to me which I imagine would be the most frequently disliked. It could just be poor composition not making the most of those instruments, or using them to grating effect... I'll admit to liking some of the songs from Forces' classic selection more than others, but they can certainly be an acquired taste, and the gameplay for those segments REALLY didn't help. You have to isolate the music by itself and listen to it to appreciate some of it, and that isn't the purpose or intention of game music. Game music's reception is going to be the responsibility of more than a single composer. If we stuck the soundtrack for Breath of the Wild into Sonic Forces, everyone would have hated it too, even if they seem to like it in BotW.
For Origins, I think it might be a little obtuse if you're really saying no one's ever said *why* they don't like it before. But benefit of the doubt, I can actually break that one down for you:
- Most of it is fine aside from nitpicks you'll hear from only the truest of audiophiles or their echoing sheep... when it comes to the actual original soundtrack that's still in-tact.
- For songs like the ones in Carnival Night, Ice Cap, and Launch Base, the biggest complaint people have is the original Genesis music being absent.
- The next complaint about those tracks is that Jun Senuoe was apparently brought on to take the original recordings for those songs and touch them up... but they're identical to ones used in early prototype builds when they lacked polish. We actually have *later prototypes* which fans have archived that show more polished versions of these same exact tracks, but it's the unfinished ones that made it into Origins instead, and Sega and/or Jun just straight-up lied about it. (Other problems with the games being unfaithful didn't help.)
- The new Super Sonic music for S3&K was surprising and I mean the original track was annoying and short maybe but the new one really isn't any less so. It felt like it was whipped up in an afternoon. This is subjective.
- Game Gear games really did have problems in the collection.
- Personal nitpick here, but I think they made the wrong call on which track to use on the Hidden Palace Zone in Sonic the Hedgehog 2.
I really haven't heard people complain about the -instruments- in Sonic Origins very much. The soundtrack got scrutinized and criticized for what it is and what it isn't but could/should have potentially/ideally been, which I think is fair enough. For anyone who wants to talk about those games, the soundtrack is a good talking point.
But counterpoint? The music in Sonic Mania (/Plus) is REALLY good and I don't see you bringing that one up, so clearly we don't just need CD or SA2 music. There's a game with solid gameplay that actually respects and understands what was good about Genesis-era Sonic music and people love it. I'll also add that Frontiers was a huuuge step away from the kind of rock we've been accustomed to, and even though some of it can be soft and experimental and not everyone's cup of tea for Sonic... most people say that the boss fights absolutely slap with the music being a highlight, and even the cyberspace stages are songs I'll hear positive comments on or even brought up out-of-context. (Ex. "I love this song! It sounds like it would fit right into a cyberspace level in Sonic Frontiers.")
Closing thoughts? I don't have the vocabulary or music theory knowledge to explain WHY I don't like certain songs from Sonic 4 or Forces or Superstars. I could cherrypick songs I don't like and ones where I feel like the synths are too strained or artificial, and I'll also say maybe people just don't know how to articulate, "ok but sometimes those snare drums are REALLY gratuitous", but if they sound fine to you it really might just be because it's opinion. Sometimes Sonic fans really aren't satisfied no matter what and you're absolutely right, sometimes the designers need to make the games THEY want to make and let those games find their own audience. But hey at least those Sonic "fans" help keep the series alive, when greater series have died from less mediocre releases. I will also add that I've heard songs from Sonic 4 and Sonic Forces where an artist will take a classic-style song and remake it with a different soundfont... and it'll sound waaay better to me with those artists's tweaks. But on the flip-side... I'd love to hear it if you have any examples of Sonic 1 or 2 or 3 songs which were redone in Sonic 4 instruments to sound any better.
We know. But the complaints are still largely incohesive. Especially since both episodes use entirely different instruments, the dreaded Episode I synth was used in several modern games with no complaints, and nobody has actually explained *why* they think it's bad.
But Sonic fans tend to hate anything that isn't buttrock or Sonic CD JP so it checks out.
Mania was just a sonic 3 rom hack so tired of that overhyped game getting used as some trump card in a superstars bad argument, like at that point just say you fw sonic 3 and knuckles and play origins
THANK YOU!
I'm tired of all this *"yeah, 2/3rds of the game is mostly a repeat of older games you've already played, but who cares?"* while Superstars is getting the Forces treatment for so much less.
Sonic 4 has good songs.
Episode 2 has pretty forgettable tracks besides the Twinkle Park remix.
And most people are only complaining about the instrumentation, not the compositions.
I will say that Arzest doesn't have a *great* track record, but overall I'd say that Sonic Superstars is without a doubt their best game. Not that it has much competition but it is actually really fun and I don't get the hate for it
Also, for as mid-to-bad as Hey Pikmin and Yoshi's New Island are, Balan is definitely the biggest stain on their reputation and that game being awful is entirely an issue with Yuki Naka and not Arzest.
The artstyle was admittedly stiff and uninteresting the soundtrack was mixed with some bangers in there and some songs that... Oh god no. But at the end of the day I had fun
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uj/ Yeah, people like to bring up Yoshi's New Island and Balan Wonderworld as gotchas, but that's ONE bad game out of maybe 10-16 of them. Dunno about Yoshi's New Island since I've never played it, but I think people are exaggerating about it.
Also ignoring that Balan Wonderworld's failure was mostly on Yuji Naka/Square Enix's hands. Aren't Sonic fans the ones who love to say "don't blame the devs"?
the funny thing is that is ok to put Balan or Arzest in general for those kind of people but the moment you say the ones that made Sonic rush also made Sonic 4 they either get super angry or defensive... or just stop writing to you
~~I mean Sonic 4 basically is a Rush game~~
You know.. is true... but f~~or your safety don't say that combination of words in you know where~~
You see When it's 06, then it's not their fault, but when it's Forces, they want Saw Nick to fail.
I thibk yoshis new island is a solid game. I dont get why everyones hating on it recently.
Yosh's New Island is just averagely boring.
Eggsaggerating you may say
Mfw my favorite songs in superstars are the jun songs
Sky Temple my beloved!
I mean, except for the Sonic 4 music argument, I agree with all of this, people mainly complain about Sonic 4’s music cause of the instrumentation, not the actual melodies themselves
SOMEONE never heard Metal Sonic’s theme
Yeah, there's this one noise (I refuse to acknowledge it as a note) in particular that's supposed to simulate a particular quirk of the Genesis soundchip, and it just sounds like ear cancer instead. Senoue uses it constantly, and it ruins his work. ~~The dude even used it for Sonic Origins to re-orchestrate the Sonic 3 prototype tracks, despite the fact that the prototype tracks already existed in the Genesis sound library that's emulated in the rest of the collection. Bizarre.~~ Nope, I remembered this incorrectly.
False. The prototype tracks in Origins are from very old recordings that predate the November prototypes. They're what the S&K Collection MIDIs are based on. The only song Jun Senoue made for Origins was super sonic.
This. Had Jun used something like his Modern/Adventure Sonic instrumentation, they'd be far more beloved than they already are.
Except this is a classic Sonic game, and every composer in this game adapted their sound for that. The music still has to actually fit the theme of the game.
Yes, but Jun's ideal instrumentation for 4 and Superstars is disliked.
Yet no one has been able to explain *why* they dislike it. Sonic 4 Episode II used completely different instruments from Ep.I, they still didn't like it. Sonic Forces recorded it's music from **real hardware**, they didn't like that. And Sonic Origins straight-up used old 3&K recordings from 1993. They didn't like that either. So I'm convinced Sonic fans will just hate everything that isn't SA2 buttrock or Sonic CD. They're not worth being catered towards.
I'll be real. Reading this comment, I was surprised. I'd never heard these claims before. It might not be well-known if Sonic 4 Episode II didn't use the same instruments as Episode I, or even that Forces used real hardware. I'd actually love to hear more about that if you know more, or maybe I'll just look up some interviews myself. I *will* say that I've heard it said before that people believed that Superstars in particular was using the same instruments as Sonic 4, and I'm not sure if that's true or not and you didn't address it. But in the case of both Sonic 4 episodes, the Sonic Forces classic stages, and Sonic Superstars... it might not help or even be coincidence that some of the most poor music goes with some of the most poor gameplay. Like I think mileage will vary the most on Superstars, but it's definitely those tracks which "feel" the most like Sonic 4 to me which I imagine would be the most frequently disliked. It could just be poor composition not making the most of those instruments, or using them to grating effect... I'll admit to liking some of the songs from Forces' classic selection more than others, but they can certainly be an acquired taste, and the gameplay for those segments REALLY didn't help. You have to isolate the music by itself and listen to it to appreciate some of it, and that isn't the purpose or intention of game music. Game music's reception is going to be the responsibility of more than a single composer. If we stuck the soundtrack for Breath of the Wild into Sonic Forces, everyone would have hated it too, even if they seem to like it in BotW. For Origins, I think it might be a little obtuse if you're really saying no one's ever said *why* they don't like it before. But benefit of the doubt, I can actually break that one down for you: - Most of it is fine aside from nitpicks you'll hear from only the truest of audiophiles or their echoing sheep... when it comes to the actual original soundtrack that's still in-tact. - For songs like the ones in Carnival Night, Ice Cap, and Launch Base, the biggest complaint people have is the original Genesis music being absent. - The next complaint about those tracks is that Jun Senuoe was apparently brought on to take the original recordings for those songs and touch them up... but they're identical to ones used in early prototype builds when they lacked polish. We actually have *later prototypes* which fans have archived that show more polished versions of these same exact tracks, but it's the unfinished ones that made it into Origins instead, and Sega and/or Jun just straight-up lied about it. (Other problems with the games being unfaithful didn't help.) - The new Super Sonic music for S3&K was surprising and I mean the original track was annoying and short maybe but the new one really isn't any less so. It felt like it was whipped up in an afternoon. This is subjective. - Game Gear games really did have problems in the collection. - Personal nitpick here, but I think they made the wrong call on which track to use on the Hidden Palace Zone in Sonic the Hedgehog 2. I really haven't heard people complain about the -instruments- in Sonic Origins very much. The soundtrack got scrutinized and criticized for what it is and what it isn't but could/should have potentially/ideally been, which I think is fair enough. For anyone who wants to talk about those games, the soundtrack is a good talking point. But counterpoint? The music in Sonic Mania (/Plus) is REALLY good and I don't see you bringing that one up, so clearly we don't just need CD or SA2 music. There's a game with solid gameplay that actually respects and understands what was good about Genesis-era Sonic music and people love it. I'll also add that Frontiers was a huuuge step away from the kind of rock we've been accustomed to, and even though some of it can be soft and experimental and not everyone's cup of tea for Sonic... most people say that the boss fights absolutely slap with the music being a highlight, and even the cyberspace stages are songs I'll hear positive comments on or even brought up out-of-context. (Ex. "I love this song! It sounds like it would fit right into a cyberspace level in Sonic Frontiers.") Closing thoughts? I don't have the vocabulary or music theory knowledge to explain WHY I don't like certain songs from Sonic 4 or Forces or Superstars. I could cherrypick songs I don't like and ones where I feel like the synths are too strained or artificial, and I'll also say maybe people just don't know how to articulate, "ok but sometimes those snare drums are REALLY gratuitous", but if they sound fine to you it really might just be because it's opinion. Sometimes Sonic fans really aren't satisfied no matter what and you're absolutely right, sometimes the designers need to make the games THEY want to make and let those games find their own audience. But hey at least those Sonic "fans" help keep the series alive, when greater series have died from less mediocre releases. I will also add that I've heard songs from Sonic 4 and Sonic Forces where an artist will take a classic-style song and remake it with a different soundfont... and it'll sound waaay better to me with those artists's tweaks. But on the flip-side... I'd love to hear it if you have any examples of Sonic 1 or 2 or 3 songs which were redone in Sonic 4 instruments to sound any better.
We know. But the complaints are still largely incohesive. Especially since both episodes use entirely different instruments, the dreaded Episode I synth was used in several modern games with no complaints, and nobody has actually explained *why* they think it's bad. But Sonic fans tend to hate anything that isn't buttrock or Sonic CD JP so it checks out.
They **NEVER** fail to make it known that Balan's dev team made the game. Like, holy **FUCK,** give it a rest already. We **GET** it.
I didn't even know. They did a good job recovering from that stinker.
"with extra sauce. The last one was so sauceless."
This, but absolutely unironically.
Mania was just a sonic 3 rom hack so tired of that overhyped game getting used as some trump card in a superstars bad argument, like at that point just say you fw sonic 3 and knuckles and play origins
THANK YOU! I'm tired of all this *"yeah, 2/3rds of the game is mostly a repeat of older games you've already played, but who cares?"* while Superstars is getting the Forces treatment for so much less.
superstars legitimately has some of the coolest sonic levels of all time but lets just pretend like studiopolis is above a 6/10
Sonic 4 has good songs. Episode 2 has pretty forgettable tracks besides the Twinkle Park remix. And most people are only complaining about the instrumentation, not the compositions.
Dont forget the obligatory "denuvo bad" remark
that one is valid tho
To be fair, Denuvo does suck.
But Denuvo is bad
It has flaws but I think they make it sound like the worst game ever when it isn't. I actually learned it sold more than Sonic Mania.
I didn't really like superstars
I will say that Arzest doesn't have a *great* track record, but overall I'd say that Sonic Superstars is without a doubt their best game. Not that it has much competition but it is actually really fun and I don't get the hate for it Also, for as mid-to-bad as Hey Pikmin and Yoshi's New Island are, Balan is definitely the biggest stain on their reputation and that game being awful is entirely an issue with Yuki Naka and not Arzest.
Ost good! Game still bad...
"Sonic 4 having plenty of good songs" LMAO
The artstyle was admittedly stiff and uninteresting the soundtrack was mixed with some bangers in there and some songs that... Oh god no. But at the end of the day I had fun