1) Hors de combat refers to soldiers who *cannot* fight, not simply soldiers who are retreating, because they could easily turn around and start shooting again.
2) Everyone already knows the Empire commits war crimes.
3) Combatants planning an attack does not constitute conspiracy.
"You shot us!?"
"Haha you shot us!"
"It was on stun!"
"Yeah well you should have been set to kill."
(Simultaneously) "What!?"
"Well in case it wasn't us."
The "war criminal" thing is just a running gag in the SW random. I've watched TCW and Rebels a few times and there are few to no 'war crimes' committed by protagonists (turns out, killing enemy combatants is actually allowed in war).
Chopper does do some morally questionable things, like booting that friendly Imperial droid off the Ghost mid-flight and beating up some civilians on the kyber crystal transport. No war crimes.
True, but that's kinda the idea of war crimes. Both sides must follow them or else both sides don't. Otherwise 'war crimes' becomes a synonym for 'a list of *really* good strategies to take against a tough opponent'.
Which is exactly why it's a war crime. When one side does it and the other responds in kind, you both end up doing more damage to yourselves than if you had fought without those tactics. When your opponent uses a false surrender to ambush you, you never trust their surrender again. Now, anyone surrendering gets killed instead, and eventually, both sides stop surrendering and fight to the bloody end.
The Empire & other "bad guys" are pretty keen on taking prisoners in Star Wars media. The various protaganists must have been captured several hundred times.
I'm agreeing with you. Just adding that the Rebels take advantage of the Empires compassionate nature.
The only time I can can think of in the films where the Rebels take Imperials alive is on Endor & they only lived long enough to be fed to the Ewoks.
Technically the rebels didn't feed them to the ewoks, they had to stop the ewoks from eating the captured stormtroopers after they had already butchered a few of them(literally butchered and cut into meat sized portions).
Then again to ewoks we're just big smart primates, they're just little smart bears.
Not trying to be clever here, but genuine question - at what point is a surrender "finished" such that trying to escape or fight back again makes it no longer a false surrender but simply an escape attempt and presumably no longer a war crime?
In the context of star wars I think it's true that droids aren't people, so you're right when talking about something like not executing prisoners (also because droids don't surrender). But a false surrender would usually involve a commander, who isn't a droid. Think Obi Wan in the clone wars movie.
I mean nobody in star wars has, if we are getting pedantic
The central government used an army of living, sentient beings, bred and brainwashed from "birth" to be obedient and fight to thw death for them
You can try to pass this off on Palp but the senate approve it before he had total control
"rights" don't mean shit there.
We're talking about the republic army here brother not a the rebellion. The republic had rules, and standards that the rebels didn't need to adhere too.
Kinda but, they had more aspects or even all aspects of a state, the alliance to restore the republic was way different.
And it's a dumb point to begin you can commit war crimes against rebels
To be fair, Anakin did it in TCW to get an entire droid battalion to lower their guard before destroying them. And he wasn’t on the side of “rebellion.”
It can be named terrorism... I mean, the event from WW1 that was used as the excuse to attack Serbia was a rebellious act by Bosnian people of every ethnicity... And today we can head it was an terrorist act. But the target was legitimate one. And it wasn't democraticly chosen.
Annexing Bosnia can be called terrorist act, too from that pov.
The point is that rebellions are good or bad depending on interests oc some side... it is not black and white...
The Geneva conventions. It’s our metric. Of course Star Wars has no such thing.
Nonetheless, false surrender is frowned upon by enemy and ally alike for clear reasons. It ensures more violence and loss… and a harder won victory. All throughout history, humanity has been *fairly* consistent with both respecting surrender (again, in general) and also not surrender falsely so that that can remain a thing. The times when surrender isn’t respected or isn’t offered at all… those are some of the worse times.
Yea. I don’t believe the whole chopper is a war criminal thing… it’s clearly a meme.
But if he *were* a war criminal to us, it would be because of our standards coming from our perspective, not because Star Wars does or doesn’t have some sort of Geneva conventions.
Hell, even if no conventions ever existed in history… base morals and ethics will always lead us to an idea of who is and isn’t a war criminal. It could vary slightly, sure, but it would be similar every time.
Or the existence of true evil in the form of sith lords just broadens the scale. Maybe killing your neighbor on tattooine is essentially legal, just dont go poisioning the town's banthas.
No TCW has a pretty decent list of war crimes, specifically around Anakin but even Rex for example killed an unarmed man at Obi-Wans order. Slaver though he may be. But there actually are quite a few of them.
Rex didn’t kill him at obi-wan’s order. He kinda just took the initiative because he knew Kenobi wasn’t going to. Arguably a tactical decision too because they didn’t have the manpower to take this guy prisoner as they were staging an escape and trying to save the Togruta. Leaving him would’ve probably given him the opportunity to make things harder for them.
Obi Wan looks and smirks directly at Rex who isn't even prepped to fight. Takes the look, prepares the throw and impales the slaver. Like if anything that's just avoiding incriminating himself and nothing more.
False. Perfidy is a war crime. Engaging in military operations while disguised in the uniform of your opponent is explicitly stated by the Geneva Conventions to be a form of perfidy.
Chopper has been painted red and black with the imperial gear logo too many times to count.
To quote the Geneva Conventions:
Article 37. – Prohibition of perfidy
1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy:
(a) The feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender;
(b) The feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness;
(c) The feigning of civilian, non-combatant status....
Article 39. – Emblems of nationality
It is prohibited to make use of the flags or military emblems, insignia or uniforms of adverse Parties while engaging in attacks or to shield, favour, protect or impede military operations.
Dogma shooting Pong Krell while he was a prisoner is technically a war crime I think, but Pong Krell was such a piece of shit no court in the land would court Marshall him.
Child soldiers (The whole Jedi Order, The Republic Goverment that allowed it, The Rebels (Ezra was underage) so many child soldiers...).
False surrender in order to perform a supprise attack is in fact a war crime. (Anakin, Obi-Wan, like at least 25% of the characters did it at some point).
Slave soldiers (The whole Jedi Order, The Republic Goverment)
Killing civilians (Anakin among others)
Torture of prisoners (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Windu, others)
Killing fleeing combatants (Like everybody, even Yoda)
Working with terrorists (Saw Gerrera says hi)
And that's just the good guys.
Other include, but are not limited to: chemical and biological weapons, at least three genocides, attacking neutral targets, working with criminal organisations, blowing up planets, attacking diplomats, impersonating diplomats, attacking mercy missions, using mercy missions as a cover for military operations...
I would have to rewarch Rebels but I am sure Chopper is also guilty of something.
>Killing fleeing combatants (Like everybody, even Yoda)
That's not a war crime, you are allowed to kill fleeing/retreating combatants
Attacking diplomats is also not a war crime but it would be a crime as the Protection of Diplomats convention requires all signees to make it illegal to attack diplomats
Tbf the Geneva Convention, for all it's talked about, isn't the holy grail of the laws of war, and some things are just self-evident today. Killing civilians is a war crime regardless of whoever signed an accord over a century ago.
So would we say that a civilian falsely surrendering is a war crime if there was no Geneva convention? I'm not sure it would be that self evident because the general idea is that it applies to soldiers
>All of them
... and then some we haven't even thought of yet.
Little-known fact: Chopper is the reason we held the Geneva Conventions and got those 'Laws of War' things in the first place.
You have to cut him some slack, when he crashed in the y-wing and lost his pilot, it traumatized him. I really believe he's suffering from some form of droid PTSD. That might contribute to the way he is.
He's our lovable, war crime committing, crazy droid.
He literally killed over 5000 people on two star destroyers using a civilian ship to do it. War crimes in star wars are different but people saying that chopper isn't a killer didn't watch the damn show. He got a DOUBLE KILL on STAR DESTROYERS. Next you'll tell me cal kestis isn't a terrorist. People in this thread are delusional. Choppers kill count is nothing to sneeze at. Luke killed hundreds of thousands.
No one is saying that he isn't a killer. That wasn't what the OP said. OP asked how he's a war criminal. Killing enemy combatants is not a war crime. Killing enemy combatants by setting them on fire, launching them into the vacuum of space to suffocate, and shooting to cripple are all not war crimes.
A lot of people get confused about the fire thing, but it's actually not a war crime to use flame throwers against enemy combatants unless they are in an area with a lot of civilians.
It's mostly the false surrender that Lucas seems to love to use. That's super illegal and just a bad idea in general (they'll just kill your captured soldiers then, turning every battle into a bloodbath that doesn't end until everyone is dead).
I would argue it's impossible to be a war criminal when no space war crimes being established. I'm guessing somewhere in the the empire "laws" they would call all rebels criminals, or terrorists. Saw Guerra is absolutely a terrorist and has absolutely done war crimes. It's hard to define to people in that galaxy what a war crime is if they don't out right tell the audience in the material. Most people are going off of the real world equivalent of the Geneva convention. By our definition chopper has committed several. Same with pong krell sending clones to kill each other and grievous committing genocide. If we're going off the Geneva convention chopper using civilian transport to bomb military ships that's a violation of that. George Lucas was never subtle about his use of real-world examples of war being related to star wars.
Most of these aren't actually war crimes. Like, shooting down an enemy fighter is just how that works. If it were a war crime, then Wedge should be tried by the New Republic.
So murderous yeah, but I don't know if any of these are 'war crimes', like killing enemy combatants isn't a war crime by default. Maybe leaving the storm troopers stranded in deep space is??
And attempted murder of Ezra, whilst definitely a crime, again isn't a war crime.
Like others are saying, they’re applying real world regulations onto a science fantasy cartoon show. In fact, just the discourse of people disputing if the geneva convention has any bearing on Star Wars realpolitik is more amusing than the Chopper/Ki-Adi-Mundi is a war criminal jokes themselves.
That said, attacking imperial forces under the guise of surrendering to them is one such example off the top of my head. Though I’m sure there’s a YouTube video tallying all the war crimes committed.
The whole "War Crimes" discussion doesn't even really make sense in the context of Rebels. Even if they were subject to something like the Geneva Convention, they're Rebels, they're not recognized combatants. As Rebels, the Empire wouldn't need to put them on trial or anything, they would just execute them. Famously this is what happened to rebels (such as the French resistance) and spies during WWII.
I'm not sure if he's a war criminal, that depends on what military code of conduct the Rebellion is following. The comics have them using the Corellian code to prosecute Lando, but they haven't quoted it as far as I know. So, is Chopper a war criminal? Probably not. Is he a straight up, cold-blooded murder? Absolutely. He's killed so many people. And he laughed. He murdered people and laughed about it. He's a menace.
People can’t even begin to explain to you what the rules of warfare are in this series. I promise they have no reason to label Chopper a war criminal outside of jokes 😂
We assume the SW galaxy has the same laws on the books as the Geneva Conventions and Hague Accords. He does show a lot of sociopathic tendencies, but he is also a machine. So, I'm not sure his level of AI would comply with the definition of sociopath.
He got a few screws loose and lost the empathy chip a long time ago. Also genocidal. In Stellaris community we call that bot type determined exterminators.
He's only a war criminal because people online want to reference some town in Switzerland. I doubt the Geneva Convention has any hold on the politics and warfare of other galaxies...
The Geneva Convention may have jurisdiction today, but let’s not forget that Star Wars happened “a long time ago”, based on that I’m pretty sure the GC had not been signed before any of these alleged crimes occurred. He’s good.
I didn't look at the sub initially and thought you were talking Tony Tony Chopper from One Piece. Honestly, equally strange if either Chopper is considered a war criminal.
Speaking of war crimes, I always thought it was a bit dubious when they blew up the AT AT on hoth that they had already tripped up and taken out of the fight.
I mean if we‘re talking literally, the whole war crime thing is a bit complicated anyway because I‘m pretty sure the Geneva conventions don‘t exist in the Star Wars galaxy.
I mean chopper is an “agent” for the rebel alliance so it is really dependent on whose authority or organization your viewing those crimes under. I don’t remember any instance in which chopper targeted civilian infrastructure or populations.
Part of me is suspicious of him really being a repurposed BT-1 assassin droid or the like…
Seeing as the Star Wars canon universe does not have a convention of war crimes you should not do, Chopper is therefore not a war criminal. However, by Earth Geneva conventions of war crimes you should not do, Chopper is Canadian, treating it as a checklist or guidelines rather than things to not do.
Star Wars likely has something though the only one I could find is the "Yavin Code," which is from the unfinished episode of TCW where they go to Utapau. It states that prisoners must be blindfolded before execution, which is a wild thing to bring up in a kid's cartoon.
But yeah, it still remains that even if they do have something like a Geneva Convention, it might not be similar to ours at all.
Uhm, it's a bunch of allied rebellions against the Empire. It's not a conventional war, it's an insurgency by supporters of the previous democracy. Considering how Evil the Empire can be, some rebels have to get dirty and keep the Alliance Leadership un-blastered
It’s always just people who somehow come to the conclusion that, somehow, killing people *in a war* is a “war crime”. They apparently don’t actually know what “war” means.
People always say Iroh was one before ATLA, despite there being no evidence of such. All they know is he fought in a war, and therefore is *obviously* a war criminal.
To be super technical he didn’t commit war crimes under the law we have on earth. International law primarily applies to states, there are offenses against the law of nations and war that individuals can be liable for, but if the empire or any country on earth got their hands on him he’d be tried as a terrorist and murderer under civilian or military law.
More likely Chopper is just a mere run of the mill criminal and if captured by the Empire should be tried in civilian court, as should the rest of the Ghost crew. In effect, that means that they are infact guilty of a bunch of very serious crimes, including murder.
I suspect though that the New Republic has good arguments for a pardon.
Chopper might do war crime stuff like posing as an Imperial droid, but ultimately he isn't enrolled in a military until at best quite late in the Rebels show, possibly not even before the fall of the Empire and his official enrollment in the New Republic military.
In short, Chopper can for most of, if not the whole show, not be described as a lawful combatant, thus he is subject to the criminal codes that apply to civilians, not that which apply to a soldier during a war.
And as for the fake surrenders. If I were the Ghost crew's lawyer, I'd argue that the Empire has on numerous occasions proven that it is both official policy and standing orders to murder detainees arbitrarily at various commander's own discretion. Thus all escapes and any injury to Imperial personnel resulting directly from them was ultimately acts of self defense.
Not completely accurate- sometimes victors charge their own with war crimes. Or at least breaking their own regulations which prohibit behavior described as a war crime by the Geneva Convention.
Chopper's biggest killing spree by far, however, occurs in Star Wars Rebels season 2, episode 9 “Stealth Strike.” In that episode, Chopper sabotages an experimental Interdictor's gravity well, causing it and two other Imperial Light Cruisers to crash into one another and implode.
This is why
Yes, but where is the war crime? He destroyed 3 enemy military vessels. I don’t think there were any civilians aboard those vessels, and even if there were civilian contractors or something like that, Chopper wasn’t specifically targeting civilians so they would be legitimate collateral damage. Destroying enemy military vessels and killing enemy military personnel with little to no civilian casualties is as far as you can get from war crimes as possible.
I watched through Rebels specifically to see what war crimes I could find Chopper doing, and all I came up with was Chopper getting painted to look like an Imperial droid, and maybe when he pushed that helpful Imperial droid out of the Ghost (if you count that droid as a POW).
It's the attacking while in enemy uniform aspect--that interdictor killing spree is one of the times he's painted in imperial colors (alongside allies using captured uniforms). Sneaking in to save Ezra wouldn't be a war crime, but the attack on the ships and resulting 50,000+ dead is.
Not having a uniform or markings identifying him as a combatant rather than a civilian droid is probably also the best argument that some of Chopper's other violence might count as war crimes. That's why partisans will often wear colored scarves or armbands. Though Chopper's got a much better argument for a uniform than most of the crew, as his orange and yellow also gets used as markings on the ghost &, phantom, and matches sabine's starbird logo
But it's still just a joke you're thinking about it too hard, he's a little robot that's a rolling punch line. He's the comedy portion of the series yet still technically has one of the highest kill counts in star wars. How is it not a war crime that he even exists? It's amazing and hilarious and we need more!
"It was codified in the Hague Regulations.[2] Additional Protocol I prohibits the use of enemy flags, military emblems, insignia or uniforms “while engaging in attacks or in order to shield, favour, protect or impede military operations”.[3] Under the Statute of the International Criminal Court, “making improper use … of the flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy” constitutes a war crime in international armed conflicts when it results in death or serious personal injury.[4]"
So when Chopper dresses as an imperial droid and then goes to blow up a whole cruiser with probably thousands of imperials on it, war crime.
Would also argue the counterpoint that as an insurrection, rules aren't quite as cute and dry, but execution can be executed with much more liberty of the imperial forces.
The amount of murder and mayhem by Chop is on a grander scale than anything the other protagonists partake in. But looking through an unbiased lens, yes, they're all terrorists/insurrectionists, and using our World's conventions, there would be no ramifications if an imperial officer found them in disguise and shot them on sight. Thankfully the story has to story and the plot armor can be quite strong.
It's just an internet meme.
I recently watched Rebels for the first last year, after I heard everyone call him a war criminal.
He crashes one ship and doesn't "kill" any more people than any other rebel. It's dumb and just a joke
None.
People don't know what war crimes actually mean. Calling Chopper a war criminal is just the same shit as saying "Antifa are just as bad as the Nazis!"
Perfidy is a war crime and includes combatants disguising themselves as civilians or as the opposing force's troops.
This would mean - assuming droids are legally capable of being culpable of war crimes (which seems uncertain since droids have to be programmed to do or not do things) - that Chopper is committing a war crime every time Sabine paints him in Imperial colors. It could also mean he is committing a war crime simply by not wearing any markings that distinguish him as a combatant.
To quote the Geneva Conventions:
Article 37. – Prohibition of perfidy
1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy:
(a) The feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender;
(b) The feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness;
(c) The feigning of civilian, non-combatant status....
Article 39. – Emblems of nationality
It is prohibited to make use of the flags or military emblems, insignia or uniforms of adverse Parties while engaging in attacks or to shield, favour, protect or impede military operations.
I rewatched it a couple of months ago. He commits zero war crimes. Now I don't understand the jokes at all
Edit: instead of downvoting does anyone want to prove me wrong?
Doesn't actually matter. The "Chopper is a war criminal" gag satisfies the same innate inability to allow cute things to be cute that birthed "Ewoks are murder bears" and "Jar Jar is a Sith". Just deeply insecure edgelord addiction to grit from those who refuse to dare to be cute.
It’s not just chopper, they’ve all got a pretty big list of crimes https://youtu.be/c5i1CHp2FFU?si=S2nilCuwfc7jHNPR
1) Hors de combat refers to soldiers who *cannot* fight, not simply soldiers who are retreating, because they could easily turn around and start shooting again. 2) Everyone already knows the Empire commits war crimes. 3) Combatants planning an attack does not constitute conspiracy.
Yeah, the only soldiers that are protected by the Geneva convention are medics and those who explicitly surrender. Them running away doesn’t count
He's just a gleefully homicidal chaotic little guy sometimes for a hero and people joke about him.
And sometimes he suggests killing baby's.
Killing which baby's what?
*babies
When??
https://youtu.be/3tiFzt6fdSQ Right at the end
Oh shit that! Yeah that was weird
God I hate the YouTube kids shit on main YouTube. Some fun comments from old videos are gone now because of it removing them.
Pretty sure that "some fun comments" are worth the sacrifice of keeping kids safer ;)
There’s an app called YouTube kids that they can use, don’t need to be in the main YouTube and hit us with their kids rules.
for a second I thought this was the one piece sub, I was very confused for a minute there;
OMG same I was like WTF Chopper would never kill a kid!
One time Ezra was dangling by his finger tips, holding on for dear life. And Chopper came and ran over his fingers.
He tried to directly kill, indirectly kill, or would have let Ezra die through in action more than once.
My favorite is when he totally throws Ezra under the bus by showing the video of Ezra shooting Rex and Zeb 🤣🤣🤣
It was Rex and Kanan and that was a hilarious moment
"You shot us!?" "Haha you shot us!" "It was on stun!" "Yeah well you should have been set to kill." (Simultaneously) "What!?" "Well in case it wasn't us."
It’s been a while. Rex was the one saying it shoulda been set to kill wasn’t it?
Yes
Yes. Sorry Kanan!
This is why I don’t like chopper. I know ultimately he’s loyal and comes through in some important ways. But he just seems like a dick.
Oh. He is a total dick. The only person Chopper likes is Hera.
He likes his mommy. Of course.
I also choose this droid's mommy
Good, good, you chose well.
The "war criminal" thing is just a running gag in the SW random. I've watched TCW and Rebels a few times and there are few to no 'war crimes' committed by protagonists (turns out, killing enemy combatants is actually allowed in war). Chopper does do some morally questionable things, like booting that friendly Imperial droid off the Ghost mid-flight and beating up some civilians on the kyber crystal transport. No war crimes.
He also wanted to drop a large piece of equipment on a heavily populated area in the new Ashoka series but got veto'd.
"Is that bad?" I swear that's exactly what he said!
Sometimes Chopper is like Kenny from South Park where he *IS* actually saying something.
I don’t think he “wanted to” really. Just asked why Sendula was firing back and hadn’t thought that far ahead.
He absolutely wanted to
he literally asks “is that bad”
typical manipulative behavior
"false surrender" is a war crime that is committed CONSTANTLY through the clone wars, by the protagonists.
Alongside wearing the uniform of the enemy then engaging in combat.
The Germans did that at the Bulge. They weren't taken prisoner.
The commando droids did do that first, so if anything the Republic is fighting fire with fire.
>fighting fire with fire. Fighting war crimes with war crimes does not make them not war crimes.
True, but that's kinda the idea of war crimes. Both sides must follow them or else both sides don't. Otherwise 'war crimes' becomes a synonym for 'a list of *really* good strategies to take against a tough opponent'.
Which is exactly why it's a war crime. When one side does it and the other responds in kind, you both end up doing more damage to yourselves than if you had fought without those tactics. When your opponent uses a false surrender to ambush you, you never trust their surrender again. Now, anyone surrendering gets killed instead, and eventually, both sides stop surrendering and fight to the bloody end.
The Empire & other "bad guys" are pretty keen on taking prisoners in Star Wars media. The various protaganists must have been captured several hundred times.
What do you think a "false surrender" is?
I'm agreeing with you. Just adding that the Rebels take advantage of the Empires compassionate nature. The only time I can can think of in the films where the Rebels take Imperials alive is on Endor & they only lived long enough to be fed to the Ewoks.
Technically the rebels didn't feed them to the ewoks, they had to stop the ewoks from eating the captured stormtroopers after they had already butchered a few of them(literally butchered and cut into meat sized portions). Then again to ewoks we're just big smart primates, they're just little smart bears.
"the empire's compassionate nature" lmao
Not trying to be clever here, but genuine question - at what point is a surrender "finished" such that trying to escape or fight back again makes it no longer a false surrender but simply an escape attempt and presumably no longer a war crime?
Yep Anakin and Obi Wan both would be tried for false surrender.
>false surrender" is a war crime ...on earth.
Well yeah, but what other basis do we have?
And anywhere with war. Because if you do then the enemy has no incentive to keep prisoners alive. They'd just start executing the prisoners.
Murder is also a crime on earth. What's your point?
Can't commit the crime if there isn't a law for it
You can't commit a war crime against droids.
In the context of star wars I think it's true that droids aren't people, so you're right when talking about something like not executing prisoners (also because droids don't surrender). But a false surrender would usually involve a commander, who isn't a droid. Think Obi Wan in the clone wars movie.
Luckily rebellions aren't wars
"Rebellions aren't wars" is the most wanna be loophole answer I think I've ever seen to anything. That's so freaking funny. XD
Mr President, you can't just deploy hundreds of thousands of troops to Vietnam, Congress must declare war! "Vietcong aren't wars"
"It's a police action...with the military. Nailed it."
It's a special police action
The United States hasn’t declared war on any other foreign entity since ww2, its all police actions… like dropping napalm on Vietnamese citizens
Rebel and terrorist groups haven't signed the Geneva Convention, so it's irrelevant
I mean nobody in star wars has, if we are getting pedantic The central government used an army of living, sentient beings, bred and brainwashed from "birth" to be obedient and fight to thw death for them You can try to pass this off on Palp but the senate approve it before he had total control "rights" don't mean shit there.
I mean that's the whole reason Saw was separate from the rest of the alliance. He didn't agree with their views on how to fight this war.
We're talking about the republic army here brother not a the rebellion. The republic had rules, and standards that the rebels didn't need to adhere too.
Aren’t the Separatists rebels by another name?
No, they’re separate.
Kinda but, they had more aspects or even all aspects of a state, the alliance to restore the republic was way different. And it's a dumb point to begin you can commit war crimes against rebels
They're only wars if they occur in the war region of france, anything else are just sparkling skirmishes
How big does a rebellion need to be to be considered a civil war?
I think it's when Iron Man asks you to sign a legal document, but you take your friends to the airport to rumble instead
It’s called Star Wars not Star Rebellions
To be fair, Anakin did it in TCW to get an entire droid battalion to lower their guard before destroying them. And he wasn’t on the side of “rebellion.”
How'd that "Rebellion of Independence" go for you?
Fancy seeing you here.
It can be named terrorism... I mean, the event from WW1 that was used as the excuse to attack Serbia was a rebellious act by Bosnian people of every ethnicity... And today we can head it was an terrorist act. But the target was legitimate one. And it wasn't democraticly chosen. Annexing Bosnia can be called terrorist act, too from that pov. The point is that rebellions are good or bad depending on interests oc some side... it is not black and white...
Neither rebellions nor terrorists are signers of the Geneva Convention so it doesn't matter what you call them
Well, a lot of signers have done it anyway. There are 40 people free, but they failed the Geneva convention.
It is literally called the Galactic Civil War https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Galactic_Civil_War?so=search
A war crime as defined by whom?
The Geneva conventions. It’s our metric. Of course Star Wars has no such thing. Nonetheless, false surrender is frowned upon by enemy and ally alike for clear reasons. It ensures more violence and loss… and a harder won victory. All throughout history, humanity has been *fairly* consistent with both respecting surrender (again, in general) and also not surrender falsely so that that can remain a thing. The times when surrender isn’t respected or isn’t offered at all… those are some of the worse times.
Sometimes people online will forget that some laws, while made up, were made up for a good reason based on pretty straightforward ethics lol.
Yea. I don’t believe the whole chopper is a war criminal thing… it’s clearly a meme. But if he *were* a war criminal to us, it would be because of our standards coming from our perspective, not because Star Wars does or doesn’t have some sort of Geneva conventions. Hell, even if no conventions ever existed in history… base morals and ethics will always lead us to an idea of who is and isn’t a war criminal. It could vary slightly, sure, but it would be similar every time.
Or the existence of true evil in the form of sith lords just broadens the scale. Maybe killing your neighbor on tattooine is essentially legal, just dont go poisioning the town's banthas.
Thanks, I read this in Thrawn’s voice.
>Of course Star Wars has no such thing. The term "war crimes" IS used in SWTOR.
As the Geneva Conventions.
I mean, yes, I know all that. Was just light heartedly pointing out that there's no Geneva Convention in the SW universe.
And I’m pointing out that that isn’t the point.
Anakin does false surrender, which is a war crime.
So does obi-wan. Like 5 minutes into the clone wars movie.
And it becomes like his calling card where it is weird they still fall for it after all the times he does it.
No TCW has a pretty decent list of war crimes, specifically around Anakin but even Rex for example killed an unarmed man at Obi-Wans order. Slaver though he may be. But there actually are quite a few of them.
Rex didn’t kill him at obi-wan’s order. He kinda just took the initiative because he knew Kenobi wasn’t going to. Arguably a tactical decision too because they didn’t have the manpower to take this guy prisoner as they were staging an escape and trying to save the Togruta. Leaving him would’ve probably given him the opportunity to make things harder for them.
Obi Wan looks and smirks directly at Rex who isn't even prepped to fight. Takes the look, prepares the throw and impales the slaver. Like if anything that's just avoiding incriminating himself and nothing more.
False. Perfidy is a war crime. Engaging in military operations while disguised in the uniform of your opponent is explicitly stated by the Geneva Conventions to be a form of perfidy. Chopper has been painted red and black with the imperial gear logo too many times to count. To quote the Geneva Conventions: Article 37. – Prohibition of perfidy 1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy: (a) The feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender; (b) The feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness; (c) The feigning of civilian, non-combatant status.... Article 39. – Emblems of nationality It is prohibited to make use of the flags or military emblems, insignia or uniforms of adverse Parties while engaging in attacks or to shield, favour, protect or impede military operations.
when does it becoming spying vs perfidy
Only apples to soldiers. Spies are "civilians".
The Geneva conventions govern armed forces, while a nation's spies are typically government employees.
There's a reason spies are usually killed and soldiers are captured
Dogma shooting Pong Krell while he was a prisoner is technically a war crime I think, but Pong Krell was such a piece of shit no court in the land would court Marshall him.
Are you sure? Dogma never shows up again after that arc.
If he did get in trouble for then that's the greatest miscarriage of justice in Star Wars history. r/fuckpongkrell
Child soldiers (The whole Jedi Order, The Republic Goverment that allowed it, The Rebels (Ezra was underage) so many child soldiers...). False surrender in order to perform a supprise attack is in fact a war crime. (Anakin, Obi-Wan, like at least 25% of the characters did it at some point). Slave soldiers (The whole Jedi Order, The Republic Goverment) Killing civilians (Anakin among others) Torture of prisoners (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Windu, others) Killing fleeing combatants (Like everybody, even Yoda) Working with terrorists (Saw Gerrera says hi) And that's just the good guys. Other include, but are not limited to: chemical and biological weapons, at least three genocides, attacking neutral targets, working with criminal organisations, blowing up planets, attacking diplomats, impersonating diplomats, attacking mercy missions, using mercy missions as a cover for military operations... I would have to rewarch Rebels but I am sure Chopper is also guilty of something.
>Killing fleeing combatants (Like everybody, even Yoda) That's not a war crime, you are allowed to kill fleeing/retreating combatants Attacking diplomats is also not a war crime but it would be a crime as the Protection of Diplomats convention requires all signees to make it illegal to attack diplomats
[удалено]
Not a war crime.
They're also non-state actors, so the Geneva Convention wouldn't apply to them AFAIR.
Tbf the Geneva Convention, for all it's talked about, isn't the holy grail of the laws of war, and some things are just self-evident today. Killing civilians is a war crime regardless of whoever signed an accord over a century ago.
So would we say that a civilian falsely surrendering is a war crime if there was no Geneva convention? I'm not sure it would be that self evident because the general idea is that it applies to soldiers
The most common CW war crime is false surrender
Pretending to surrender is a war crime which happens quite a bit
Anakin surrendering under a white flag, then ramming the enemy flagship may qualify as a war crime.
Ah ok, glad I wasn’t crazy lol. Edit: Why the heck was this downvoted-
All of them
>All of them ... and then some we haven't even thought of yet. Little-known fact: Chopper is the reason we held the Geneva Conventions and got those 'Laws of War' things in the first place.
He took the documentation and made a To-Do list.
You don't want to know, and it's classified by the New Republic anyway.
You have to cut him some slack, when he crashed in the y-wing and lost his pilot, it traumatized him. I really believe he's suffering from some form of droid PTSD. That might contribute to the way he is. He's our lovable, war crime committing, crazy droid.
He literally killed over 5000 people on two star destroyers using a civilian ship to do it. War crimes in star wars are different but people saying that chopper isn't a killer didn't watch the damn show. He got a DOUBLE KILL on STAR DESTROYERS. Next you'll tell me cal kestis isn't a terrorist. People in this thread are delusional. Choppers kill count is nothing to sneeze at. Luke killed hundreds of thousands.
No one is saying that he isn't a killer. That wasn't what the OP said. OP asked how he's a war criminal. Killing enemy combatants is not a war crime. Killing enemy combatants by setting them on fire, launching them into the vacuum of space to suffocate, and shooting to cripple are all not war crimes. A lot of people get confused about the fire thing, but it's actually not a war crime to use flame throwers against enemy combatants unless they are in an area with a lot of civilians.
It's mostly the false surrender that Lucas seems to love to use. That's super illegal and just a bad idea in general (they'll just kill your captured soldiers then, turning every battle into a bloodbath that doesn't end until everyone is dead).
I haven’t seen anyone saying Chopper hasn’t killed anyone, just that he didn’t commit war crimes.
I would argue it's impossible to be a war criminal when no space war crimes being established. I'm guessing somewhere in the the empire "laws" they would call all rebels criminals, or terrorists. Saw Guerra is absolutely a terrorist and has absolutely done war crimes. It's hard to define to people in that galaxy what a war crime is if they don't out right tell the audience in the material. Most people are going off of the real world equivalent of the Geneva convention. By our definition chopper has committed several. Same with pong krell sending clones to kill each other and grievous committing genocide. If we're going off the Geneva convention chopper using civilian transport to bomb military ships that's a violation of that. George Lucas was never subtle about his use of real-world examples of war being related to star wars.
People saying it’s just a joke haven’t paid enough [attention](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsrebels/s/QiSKLUHMTc)
Most of these aren't actually war crimes. Like, shooting down an enemy fighter is just how that works. If it were a war crime, then Wedge should be tried by the New Republic.
So murderous yeah, but I don't know if any of these are 'war crimes', like killing enemy combatants isn't a war crime by default. Maybe leaving the storm troopers stranded in deep space is?? And attempted murder of Ezra, whilst definitely a crime, again isn't a war crime.
Like others are saying, they’re applying real world regulations onto a science fantasy cartoon show. In fact, just the discourse of people disputing if the geneva convention has any bearing on Star Wars realpolitik is more amusing than the Chopper/Ki-Adi-Mundi is a war criminal jokes themselves. That said, attacking imperial forces under the guise of surrendering to them is one such example off the top of my head. Though I’m sure there’s a YouTube video tallying all the war crimes committed.
The whole "War Crimes" discussion doesn't even really make sense in the context of Rebels. Even if they were subject to something like the Geneva Convention, they're Rebels, they're not recognized combatants. As Rebels, the Empire wouldn't need to put them on trial or anything, they would just execute them. Famously this is what happened to rebels (such as the French resistance) and spies during WWII.
Didn't he insinuate he wanted to commit infanticide. Oh and he's killed multiple pows
I have a soft spot for that foul mouthed droid.
I'm not sure if he's a war criminal, that depends on what military code of conduct the Rebellion is following. The comics have them using the Corellian code to prosecute Lando, but they haven't quoted it as far as I know. So, is Chopper a war criminal? Probably not. Is he a straight up, cold-blooded murder? Absolutely. He's killed so many people. And he laughed. He murdered people and laughed about it. He's a menace.
A galaxy far far away doesn’t exactly use the Geneva convention.
For a second I thought this was the one piece subreddit, was very confused.
he has an estimated 50,000 kills due to sabotage
Technically it’s whatever the Empire says is a war crime.
People like to vote the Geneva convention but with how old this galaxy seems to be there may not have been a Geneva when Chopper was around.
People can’t even begin to explain to you what the rules of warfare are in this series. I promise they have no reason to label Chopper a war criminal outside of jokes 😂
People don’t know what a war crime is, they just say it cause it makes the character sound like a psychopath.
because he is a psychopath...
We assume the SW galaxy has the same laws on the books as the Geneva Conventions and Hague Accords. He does show a lot of sociopathic tendencies, but he is also a machine. So, I'm not sure his level of AI would comply with the definition of sociopath.
He got a few screws loose and lost the empathy chip a long time ago. Also genocidal. In Stellaris community we call that bot type determined exterminators.
🤣😂😂😂😂🔫🤖
He's only a war criminal because people online want to reference some town in Switzerland. I doubt the Geneva Convention has any hold on the politics and warfare of other galaxies...
More like Geneva suggestions am I right guys
canadian by any Chance? or from the balkans?
Russia, is that you?
*Nope, it's-a me! America!*
Also true…
No but the yavin convention does
The Geneva Convention may have jurisdiction today, but let’s not forget that Star Wars happened “a long time ago”, based on that I’m pretty sure the GC had not been signed before any of these alleged crimes occurred. He’s good.
https://youtu.be/ZsqZNW6Haag?si=_kHhlfxVBODC8pOh
50,000 dead would beg to differ
I didn't look at the sub initially and thought you were talking Tony Tony Chopper from One Piece. Honestly, equally strange if either Chopper is considered a war criminal.
Speaking of war crimes, I always thought it was a bit dubious when they blew up the AT AT on hoth that they had already tripped up and taken out of the fight.
I mean if we‘re talking literally, the whole war crime thing is a bit complicated anyway because I‘m pretty sure the Geneva conventions don‘t exist in the Star Wars galaxy.
I mean chopper is an “agent” for the rebel alliance so it is really dependent on whose authority or organization your viewing those crimes under. I don’t remember any instance in which chopper targeted civilian infrastructure or populations. Part of me is suspicious of him really being a repurposed BT-1 assassin droid or the like…
He's absolutely a terrorist. Not sure how he's a war criminal specifically though.
All of them.
Seeing as the Star Wars canon universe does not have a convention of war crimes you should not do, Chopper is therefore not a war criminal. However, by Earth Geneva conventions of war crimes you should not do, Chopper is Canadian, treating it as a checklist or guidelines rather than things to not do.
Star Wars likely has something though the only one I could find is the "Yavin Code," which is from the unfinished episode of TCW where they go to Utapau. It states that prisoners must be blindfolded before execution, which is a wild thing to bring up in a kid's cartoon. But yeah, it still remains that even if they do have something like a Geneva Convention, it might not be similar to ours at all.
I'm sure there were some day care centers on the Death Star, or at least commercial contractors. Luke Skywalker is also a war criminal.
https://youtu.be/ZsqZNW6Haag?si=ypXe4NZZFaMQTq64
I thought this was r/Australia for a sec and was about to say war criminal no. Actual criminal. Of course.
Uhm, it's a bunch of allied rebellions against the Empire. It's not a conventional war, it's an insurgency by supporters of the previous democracy. Considering how Evil the Empire can be, some rebels have to get dirty and keep the Alliance Leadership un-blastered
🥴🥴🥴🥴 really…. Really
It’s always just people who somehow come to the conclusion that, somehow, killing people *in a war* is a “war crime”. They apparently don’t actually know what “war” means. People always say Iroh was one before ATLA, despite there being no evidence of such. All they know is he fought in a war, and therefore is *obviously* a war criminal.
To be super technical he didn’t commit war crimes under the law we have on earth. International law primarily applies to states, there are offenses against the law of nations and war that individuals can be liable for, but if the empire or any country on earth got their hands on him he’d be tried as a terrorist and murderer under civilian or military law.
I think it’s just a meme cause he has a very high kill count and comes off as a grouch.
More likely Chopper is just a mere run of the mill criminal and if captured by the Empire should be tried in civilian court, as should the rest of the Ghost crew. In effect, that means that they are infact guilty of a bunch of very serious crimes, including murder. I suspect though that the New Republic has good arguments for a pardon. Chopper might do war crime stuff like posing as an Imperial droid, but ultimately he isn't enrolled in a military until at best quite late in the Rebels show, possibly not even before the fall of the Empire and his official enrollment in the New Republic military. In short, Chopper can for most of, if not the whole show, not be described as a lawful combatant, thus he is subject to the criminal codes that apply to civilians, not that which apply to a soldier during a war. And as for the fake surrenders. If I were the Ghost crew's lawyer, I'd argue that the Empire has on numerous occasions proven that it is both official policy and standing orders to murder detainees arbitrarily at various commander's own discretion. Thus all escapes and any injury to Imperial personnel resulting directly from them was ultimately acts of self defense.
How can there be war crimes if there was no war? (yet)
he stole my heart
yea chop IS a criminal compared to Thrawn whos only crime is collateral damage........
The Geneva conventions do not apply to droids. However, Chopper is a criminal, as he tried to steal that leg.
War crimes arent a real thing. Its arbitrary punishment victors place on the losers
Not completely accurate- sometimes victors charge their own with war crimes. Or at least breaking their own regulations which prohibit behavior described as a war crime by the Geneva Convention.
Chopper's biggest killing spree by far, however, occurs in Star Wars Rebels season 2, episode 9 “Stealth Strike.” In that episode, Chopper sabotages an experimental Interdictor's gravity well, causing it and two other Imperial Light Cruisers to crash into one another and implode. This is why
Yes, but where is the war crime? He destroyed 3 enemy military vessels. I don’t think there were any civilians aboard those vessels, and even if there were civilian contractors or something like that, Chopper wasn’t specifically targeting civilians so they would be legitimate collateral damage. Destroying enemy military vessels and killing enemy military personnel with little to no civilian casualties is as far as you can get from war crimes as possible. I watched through Rebels specifically to see what war crimes I could find Chopper doing, and all I came up with was Chopper getting painted to look like an Imperial droid, and maybe when he pushed that helpful Imperial droid out of the Ghost (if you count that droid as a POW).
It's the attacking while in enemy uniform aspect--that interdictor killing spree is one of the times he's painted in imperial colors (alongside allies using captured uniforms). Sneaking in to save Ezra wouldn't be a war crime, but the attack on the ships and resulting 50,000+ dead is. Not having a uniform or markings identifying him as a combatant rather than a civilian droid is probably also the best argument that some of Chopper's other violence might count as war crimes. That's why partisans will often wear colored scarves or armbands. Though Chopper's got a much better argument for a uniform than most of the crew, as his orange and yellow also gets used as markings on the ghost &, phantom, and matches sabine's starbird logo
But it's still just a joke you're thinking about it too hard, he's a little robot that's a rolling punch line. He's the comedy portion of the series yet still technically has one of the highest kill counts in star wars. How is it not a war crime that he even exists? It's amazing and hilarious and we need more!
"It was codified in the Hague Regulations.[2] Additional Protocol I prohibits the use of enemy flags, military emblems, insignia or uniforms “while engaging in attacks or in order to shield, favour, protect or impede military operations”.[3] Under the Statute of the International Criminal Court, “making improper use … of the flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy” constitutes a war crime in international armed conflicts when it results in death or serious personal injury.[4]" So when Chopper dresses as an imperial droid and then goes to blow up a whole cruiser with probably thousands of imperials on it, war crime. Would also argue the counterpoint that as an insurrection, rules aren't quite as cute and dry, but execution can be executed with much more liberty of the imperial forces.
True, though Ezra, Sabine, Kanan and Rex impersonated stormtroopers a bunch of times but nobody is calling them war criminals, only Chopper.
The amount of murder and mayhem by Chop is on a grander scale than anything the other protagonists partake in. But looking through an unbiased lens, yes, they're all terrorists/insurrectionists, and using our World's conventions, there would be no ramifications if an imperial officer found them in disguise and shot them on sight. Thankfully the story has to story and the plot armor can be quite strong.
The deleted scenes, he does things. Can’t believe they even animated that kinda stuff…
He tried to kill a baby…for starters.
Ok, he *tried* to blow up a ship that *happened* to have a baby in it…that he was aware of.
I think people are mostly exaggerating for the sake of humor. Killing enemy combatants isn't a war crime, just because you killed a LOT of them.
killing enemy combatants CAN be a war crime, depending on how you do it.
It's just an internet meme. I recently watched Rebels for the first last year, after I heard everyone call him a war criminal. He crashes one ship and doesn't "kill" any more people than any other rebel. It's dumb and just a joke
None. People don't know what war crimes actually mean. Calling Chopper a war criminal is just the same shit as saying "Antifa are just as bad as the Nazis!"
Perfidy is a war crime and includes combatants disguising themselves as civilians or as the opposing force's troops. This would mean - assuming droids are legally capable of being culpable of war crimes (which seems uncertain since droids have to be programmed to do or not do things) - that Chopper is committing a war crime every time Sabine paints him in Imperial colors. It could also mean he is committing a war crime simply by not wearing any markings that distinguish him as a combatant. To quote the Geneva Conventions: Article 37. – Prohibition of perfidy 1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy: (a) The feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender; (b) The feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness; (c) The feigning of civilian, non-combatant status.... Article 39. – Emblems of nationality It is prohibited to make use of the flags or military emblems, insignia or uniforms of adverse Parties while engaging in attacks or to shield, favour, protect or impede military operations.
I rewatched it a couple of months ago. He commits zero war crimes. Now I don't understand the jokes at all Edit: instead of downvoting does anyone want to prove me wrong?
Doesn't actually matter. The "Chopper is a war criminal" gag satisfies the same innate inability to allow cute things to be cute that birthed "Ewoks are murder bears" and "Jar Jar is a Sith". Just deeply insecure edgelord addiction to grit from those who refuse to dare to be cute.