Welcome to the Cantina! Friendly reminder regarding the Reddit spoiler tag which is as follows, \>!Spoilers go here\!<
The Cantina and many other subreddits have been protesting Reddit leadership due the changes in policy regarding 3rd Party Apps.
Subreddits depend on 3rd Party Apps to keep the communities moderated, functioning, and running smoothly.
If you enjoy this subreddit and the countless others on Reddit, please help us try and save 3rd Party Apps.
Please visit /r/Save3rdPartyApps and /r/ModCoord for more information. See this [Infographic here](https://i.redd.it/zqptto18e34b1.jpg)
Consider using an Ad Blocker such as [UBlockOrigin](https://ublockorigin.com/).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/StarWarsCantina) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I do not think it's possible to avoid this with a franchise as visible as Star Wars and also as much a lightning rod for people's narratives as a result. There's a combination of very powerful nostalgia for the Star Wars of their youth, a perception that Star Wars was not commercialized until recently, content creators focusing on "controversies" for engagement bait and reveneue, and the effects of internet echo chambers in fandoms that are at play here. Social media has in particular made the latter pretty bad, even compared to forums and such of the past.
I think most fans generally don't have these kinds of sentiments or really spend most of their time absorbing it, the internet however has a tendency to make them look more dominant than they are. I think most fans are generally of the mind that they'll watch/read/play what interests them and skip the ones they don't care for as much. More importantly, they don't let the stuff they don't like occupy such a large part of their activities. Again Star Wars is large and varied enough that people can find plenty of content that is more to their liking.
My gut feeling is that the majority of Star Wars fans (and by "fan" I'm counting anyone who likes Star Wars) are not venturing onto social media and forums specifically to discuss the franchise. Some are casual fans who only watch the movies from time to time, some are like my dad who absolutely consider themselves fans but don't consume every little bit of Star Wars media. I think it's mostly the die hards for whom being a Star Wars fan is a significant part of their identity that make up a lot of the online discourse. And that group of people tend to be very passionate about a franchise and how it's treated (this is true of any popular media.)
Most fans who just watch the films when they release or pick up the occasional book or streaming series might have things they dislike about certain media, but it doesn't bother them enough to go online venting about it. The online anger toward franchises and the new content they're pumping out is partially a minority, but it's also partially manufactured. I've lost track of how many Youtube channels I've seen featuring rage bait videos declaring "new such-and-such movie/series is trash" with a thumbnail of the creator screaming at the camera. It's an industry that relies upon negativity plays on fan ire to survive.
this is exactly right. I have some SW posters in my background for work calls, I've never heard anyone complain about or even really delineate "modern" SW from other periods. It's just a thing people love to watch with their kids, single people love the shows and are eager to ask me about them. For every person angry on a youtube comment section there are thousands or tens of thousands of people who just don't care and will never engage beyond their enjoyment of the thing itself, in the moment
Oh yeah, I'm 100% in agreement here.
>a perception that Star Wars was not commercialized until recently
Which is really insane. Star Wars is the originator of the modern commercializing of movie franchises. There was (and is) so much merch. Action figures, breakfast cereals, props, I remember my mom having an R2D2 cake pan when I was a kid. It went to the point that it became a big gag in the parody Spaceballs way back in 1987. The whole EU came out of commercialization, not deep artistic expression. Capitalizing on the love of the movies by making comics and books and games. I love Star Wars, but to deny that commercialization was a major part of it going back to the beginning is insane. That's what made Lucas his big money.
>Again Star Wars is large and varied enough that people can find plenty of content that is more to their liking.
Oh yeah, this is a huge strength of the franchise, that even Lucas seems to have missed with dismissing certain criticisms with "It's for the kids." Because it's clearly not *just* for kids. The current crop of Star Wars content really does seem to be leaning into this strength. The Mandalorian is effectively a Space Western with the wandering gunfighter protecting this kid and finding new aspects of himself in the process. Andor is a deeply political thriller. The Acolyte is a mystery exploring the flaws in perceptions of events and has a neat Wuxia influence on it's action. There's a lot of sub-genre's and different ideas that can be explored through the framework of Star Wars. Some might not be as good as others, or work for an individual, like you pointed out. But there's likely something else that is. Andor won't necessarily appeal to those wanting to get Jedi heroics. While The Mandalorian won't really appeal to those wanting a deep political dive. But that's ok, not all of it has to be for everyone. You can like certain parts more than others, but someone else might like the opposite. It's a strength, but the haters see it as a weakness.
Another aspect I see coming into things is a generational aspect. When people come into Star Wars and with what media seems to dramatically change their impression of what it's all about. I'm 45 I grew up with the original trilogy and can't even remember when I first saw Star Wars, probably as an infant. So I see things centered on the Original Trilogy as the core of the series, and the stuff that came later are add-ons that sometimes don't quite work as well and sometimes do. But many of those who grew up with the Prequels, they seem to see those as the core of Star Wars and everything to grow from there, which has a logic as they're chronologically set before the original trilogy. So they see everything through that lens while I see things through the OT lens where the Prequels were shoehorned in rather than the foundation of the series. Which leads to differing ideas on what the whole thing should be about.
> a perception that Star Wars was not commercialized until recently
Man, this is the weirdest take in the history of weird takes, given how Lucas has said in so many interviews that the merchandise is what makes the money...
This… if you look back far enough there were fans raging about Star Wars back in the 80s.
People always loved Star Wars but hated it - whether it was the Disney Plus shows, the Sequel Trilogy, the Prequels, Jar Jar specifically, the ewoks or even Yoda when Empire first came out.
Whatever happens next in SW there will be someone who will say “that’s it, franchise ruined!”
Anyone who doesn't think Star Wars wasn't commercialized from day one is naive or just doesn't know what they're talking about. Star Wars figures were ALL OVER THE PLACE in the late 70's. My younger brother still has some stashed in a box somewhere. The Ewoks were supposed to be Wookies, but we're changed to make nice, cute stuffed toys for little kids. Halloween of '77, I was Obi Wan and he was Vader.
Well said. I look at Snyders new attempt at world building with Rebel, and even with its flaws it isint being weighed against a cemented fan base engulphed by previous lore. So it has an easier time introducing evolutions to sci fi archetypes. Again, not great product IMO, but also not judged as any kind of technical betrayal of expectation.
Ever since the very first teaser of the new Disney Star Wars dropped, from the very first scene of that teaser being the face of a black stormtrooper, there's been a political movement to harrass Star Wars and especially the minorities involved in it under the pretense of "critically engaging with the media as fans". Not finding the new stuff good, being disappointed and angry, isn't a reaction, it's a pre-set goal.
This is it. This is the answer we needed.
It makes me feel so bad for the actors. Those same fans turn right around and act like they’re the victims of their childhood being ruined by Disney
The problem is it's not just Star Wars. Nobody wants to meaningfully engage in media to enjoy it anymore. Everyone wants to find the flaws so they feel smart
Truth. Too many people feel a duty to criticize everything they watch, as though it's their job to provide feedback to the studios. But the vast majority of those "legitimate criticisms" are stupid nitpicks at best, or outright bigotry at worst. These people are incapable of just enjoying things.
Like there was once a time where you papered over flaws or gaps in a story with your imagination, so that you could ignore them and enjoy the story for its merits. Now people seem to be more interested in finding those little gaps so they can point them out online for clicks or imaginary internet points. It’s such a bizarre and toxic phenomenon.
Later seasons of GOT were the worst for it. I can fully appreciate that it wasn’t as good as early seasons, but I was still really enjoying myself (not to mention that if the show had debuted with Season 8, it would still have been the best fantasy show ever made). But it was near impossible to find anywhere online to engage positively about the show, because everyone just wanted to tear it apart and point out “bad writing.”
People complained about the missing bits, calling it "bad writing". So studios started spelling everything out and spoon feeding it to us, and they still complain about "bad writing".
Meanwhile, the *actual plots* of the new stuff are about as Milquetoast as it gets. Obvious Good Guys defeat Obvious Bad Guys.
They don't have the anti-Vietnam message of the OT, nor the anti-War-on-Terror message of the PT. In fact, the most political New Star Wars Story out there, is also the most beloved, Andor!
People who say New Star Wars is Too Political are wrong. It's not political enough!
The rise of neofascists seems about as pointedly politically engaged in the zeitgeist as Star Wars has ever been. Ben Solo turns out to be anything but an obvious bad guy.
Star Wars engages in cyclical mythological structures, so while the plot may bear resemblance to what has come before that’s only because it’s working with the big plot that pretty much all myths operate under, while the characters and their journey to enlightenment is absolutely fresh and invigorating.
Idk, if the past few years are any indication, people very much need to be reminded that obvious bad guys are in fact obvious bad guys and that fascism is bad and regular people need to stand against it
That is an excellent point.
But The Force Awakens came out in 2015, and I don't think anyone at that point in time really thought the next President would be inviting literal Nazis to storm the Capitol.
The sequel trilogy is very political. It has at least as strong anti-imperialist messages but it specifically targets neo-fascism which is a lot more relevant today. There are also strong undercurrents of the virtues of collective action over the hero standing alone, and in The Last Jedi political themes saturated the movie, from the reason Luke was in hiding to the dichotomy of military power structures, which are idolized, to governmental, which are typically mocked as ineffective.
Don't even get me started on the politics of having all the leadership roles of the heroes being women.
It’s missing nothing.
Also, the majority of the fanbase IS appeased. There is a vocal minority of malcontented morons out there, and the social media algorithms amplify their voices because that’s what gets clicks. Don’t feed them.
I agree with this. I’ve been enjoying all of the Star Wars content we’ve been getting, and I don’t pay much attention to the critics.
The unfortunate problem with the vocal minority is it’s very much a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation.
Make a key character black, a woman, gay or trans and you get backlash from bigots. Don’t add those characters and you get backlash for not being inclusive of people from different backgrounds and walks of life.
I’ve seen comments made about Jedi: Fallen Order/Survivor for having a straight white protagonist, when it could have been a minority. But then you look at every other character in the game and see that everyone is either female, a PoC, LGBTQ, or an alien species, with significant cross over between those groups.
People complain and cause drama purely because they have nothing better to do and just want to get attention. But you’re right, the vast majority of people really enjoy the Star Wars content
Man, I am on a lot of Star Wars spaces and read and interact with a lot of shit and I do not think I’ve ever seen someone upset that Cal isn’t a minority. Not once. Ever.
Not really sure this is a both sides are doing it situation
Indeed. It's not missing anything, it's just adding something for everyone. That alone is enough to piss off assholes. People with a zero sum game mindset can't stand the thought of Star Wars things being made that aren't for them specifically.
My friends and I have been enjoying our own Star Wars stories since the 90s via tabletop RPGs, so maybe that helped me be more open-minded when it comes to new Star Wars media. I'm just excited to see so many new stories taking place in different little corners of my favorite fictional universe. If people think something is missing, they're welcome to write their own stories and include it instead of trying to tear down content that others are enjoying.
I don't know if it's Star Wars that's missing anything. There's a lot of media illiteracy in the fandom, a fundamental misunderstanding of what Star Wars *is* (I recall there was a recent uproar about... fire in space, of all things). Remember when everyone whined about loose threads in the short-run Obi Wan series... and then, oops, everything got tied up in literally the next couple of episodes, *a week later.* It's embarrassing.
How could you be a fan of the biggest pulp space opera series in history (move over, Flash Gordon) and expect scientific accuracy, a plot that makes perfect logical sense top to bottom, and some *serious* drama that would feel at home on HBO? Star Wars is a *fun* series, first and foremost. And if you can't have fun with it, for whatever reason, maybe it's not for you. For whatever reason, some chuds have a real problem with that.
Nothing. Star Wars has been angering people ever since the prequels. I don’t think there’s anything Lucasfilm can do to change that trend. No matter how good a project is, there will always be people upset by it because it’s not what they wanted to see.
I remember a newspaper article being published in the main sub. TESB had just come put. The author loved two Star Wars things prior to this, the original movie and the Marvel comics. They said TESB ruined Star Wars.
Tbh it makes me feel better that this weird hatred was around as early as that. I can't take fans seriously who hate on literally everything.
I remember seeing a newsletter from a fan club that was disbanding (I think) because Empire was too dark and not THEIR Star Wars. It was circulating on Reddit for a while.
Yeah I think I saw that.
Time heals many wounds, ultimately I don't think anyone could have anticipated how beloved the prequels would become. Even myself as a love since I was a kid.
I've hated Star Wars since the opening shot of first film, with the Star Destroyer chasing down the *Tantive IV*. It's ridiculous and unrealistic because spaceships don't exist./s
Once upon a time, Star Wars was a single story, the Skywalker Saga.
It’s now a franchise, and eventually, people need to accept that there will be parts of it that simply aren’t for them. And that’s fine. Marvel Comics publishes nearly (if not over) 100 titles per month, very…very few readers buy or read every single one of them. Hell, I’m not even sure if the majority of X-fans read every single X-Men related book they put out…why? Because it’s a big tent, and they want to make sure every demographic is at least tangentially covered.
Even the Star Wars comics follow this approach. Doctor Aphra’s book was very tonally different than the Darth Vader book or the main title.
Disney has given Lucasfilm the freedom to branch out and try new things. I love Andor because it’s so totally different…but I love Acolyte because it feels so much like something George Lucas would have created.
There are other shows I don’t particularly care for, but I don’t dwell on those because…well, they’re not for me, but others seem to dig them.
[](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsCantina/comments/1depj3r/comment/l8dkdaz/)
>Once upon a time, Star Wars was a single story, the Skywalker Saga.
That didn't last very long. There were spinoff cartoons even back then. The Holiday Special. The Ewoks series of movies.
Metric tons of comics, novels, and video games.
People who think Disney is ruining Star Wars with too much content simply have the benefit of survivorship bias: they remember the GOOD things from the past, because we decided to forget all the bad.
And even then, it *didn't* start as the Skywalker Saga. It was the story of Luke, Leia and Han and their adventures against the Empire. The whole Skywalker family focus didn't really show up until partway through writing Empire Strikes Back when it was decided to have Vader as Luke's father. And then the Prequels made Anakin The Chosen One and cemented the story being about this family, when it really wasn't to begin with. I personally prefer it not being about the Skywalkers. The emphasis on bloodlines is a trope I hate.
It kind of is, but exaggerated for effect. [The Holiday special does have a sequence where Chewie's dad watches some kind of VR thing that seems a bit porny while still being safe for network TV. ](https://youtu.be/6hH8rxarVG8?si=gTxCuYduV94FaA91&t=1713)I can't make it all that far though the holiday special. Like the first 30 minutes is wookies grunting at each other with no subtitles.
I don't think it's missing anything beyond the imperfections of being novel. It's like looking at a band and expecting them to be like their debut album. The band has moved on from the rough edges of the learning have rubbed off from experience and moved in to a different realm.
Also, audience members have grown up, and look back at Star Wars, and those glasses of memories. It prompts a different feeling back then, than now.
People want to recapture that youth, that "glory days," as a song writer notes, but it's different now and that's ok.
I agree on the glasses of memories so to speak. Many of the complaints about new Star Wars movies and shows are things that they don't seem to mind in the older content.
Star Wars isn’t angering anyone. Angry people watch Star Wars and then cry the same way they cry about everything else. For normal people, Star Wars is doing just fine.
I don't think it's "angering so many people"....mostly, there's definitely some folk who seem to be on a crusade against Disney Star Wars no matter what....and the worse people hating for more bigoted reasons.
However, I just think the fanbase is so *wide*. It has spread across generations, people got into it in different ways, prefer different eras, different concepts.
I have a buddy who hates it when the franchise focuses on the same few people, and loves more exploratory world building. I've seen people clamor for even more Clone Wars content. I have older relatives that are OT purists. There's people who are just all about the Jedi being badass.
Now everytime you put out a show, all the groups of the fanbase you *didn't* target can make their opinions way more visible than when Star Wars was restricted to just games, books and comics.
I think it’s multiple things.
1. Some “bad”/just ok stuff got made that ruined certain fans perception of Star Wars (rise of skywalker) and made them stop caring enough to watch the newer shows
2. People that watch YouTubers too much to form their own opinions
They’re not kids anymore, and the current stuff isn’t giving them the same feeling that it did when they were children because they’re not children.
I think it’s that simple.
Then ragebaiters and ideologues and, most likely, people being paid by other media companies make up shallow but initially striking arguments about what’s wrong with all this media/society/etc. that takes some people in and gets them repeating the empty rhetoric.
EDIT: I wanted to add that there are also people who legitimately went in with an open mind looking for reasons to like the movies & didn’t. I’m not saying everyone has to or should. Just that there’s a lit of hot air mixed in with this that drowns out the real critiques.
I don’t think it’s what’s missing from Star Wars, I think it’s what’s missing from the lives of the people who get all bent out of shape about Star Wars.
I think a lot of "review" sites are just looking to look cool by bashing SW.
Almost everything that people whine about in current content was around in the OT and PT, but we can't talk about that.
Personally I really enjoy all of the content. I let my enjoyment free me from the shackles of fanboyism
If we could stop referring to everything as "content" that could help too. Sorry, not trying to throw strays at you specifically, but I think the adoption and proliferation of people referring to art (yes even corporately produced IP projects are art) as "content" is part of the problem. It invites people, consciously and unconsciously, to view everything they watch in a detached and cynical way.
I think some of the best of Star Wars is following characters who are no force users trying to survive in a universe of force users.
Ordinary people thrust into extraordinary circumstance by just trying to survive.
I would love to see more of that.
I don't think there's anything missing. I think the problem (besides one other that the top comment already mentioned) is the fans' expectations for the type of stories being told.
For example, let's look at the Bad Batch. There were a fair amount of people who went in expecting the Star Wars version of the A Team. That's not what we got. Instead, we got a more personal story about a family struggling to live in a changed galaxy. When viewed through that lens, it's fantastic. It's a great family drama. But it's not a great A Team show and some fans decided it was bad because their expectations were not met.
Another expectation that fans have right now is for every show to cater to their preference. And that's just not going to happen with Star Wars branching out to new genres and types of storytelling. I think people need to accept that just because it isn't to their taste, doesn't mean it's absolute trash. For example, I appreciate Hemingway and think that he was a really good writer. I also do not like his style and wouldn't ever read his stuff for pleasure. Some stories aren't for you and that's okay.
> seemingly
That's the key word. Seemingly.
The Internet is not a representative sample of society as a whole. What reaches the front page of algorithmicly curated platforms is not representative of the Internet.
I think it's angering a small group of people who have become somewhat addicted to anger, and an even smaller group of content creators who have realised that this can be profitable.
Nothing.
The anger at Star Wars is a symptom of wider polarization, not of Star Wars itself. *Everyone* is divided about *everything,* and any attempt to make a product that will offend no one will necessarily be a failure due to sheer lack of uniqueness.
What's missing is a guiding vision, *any* vision, and the willingness to follow through on that vision across the board. That's why shows like Andor and Filoni's animated projects do so well, because they have such focused direction at the highest level.
Social media algorithms prioritize outrage content and Star Wars is one of the most famous IPs in the world so it’s easy to make it for and guarantees a lot of views. That’s really it imo.
What is missing? A willingness to let someone take you on a journey through story rather than being hurt because they didn't take the story where you wanted it to go.
Not everyone is going to like everything. It’s just what happens when you have a large IP like Star Wars. We’re almost what? 50 years into Star Wars? It’s like some people have said, Star Wars means different things for different people.
Everyone is going to have a different opinion because we all went through different things and took away different things.
With that being said, I think Legends being retconned before Disney put out their own stuff was always going to rub people the wrong way. While I understand why they did it. It still took almost 20 years worth of content and made it obsolete. That’s a whole generation. While some people got over it. Not everyone did. For some people that’s their star wars and while some stuff was allowed to be canon. It’s never been fully utilized within the current canon. There’s a lot of loose ends for their star wars. It makes sense there would be lingering feelings. Then you have some who talk about Legends like it never existed or downplay it. It creates further friction. Everyone has their own ideas of what star wars means to them.
I think the thing Star Wars is missing. There is so much that happens off screen. One of Star Wars’s biggest strengths is one of its biggest weaknesses. Telling incomplete stories.
Best example: Rian Johnson’s version of Luke. You see the most hopeful, optimistic person with a very unconventional jedi background. Save someone like Vader because of his attachments to others. Then he turns around. He’s jaded. He’s the most cookie cutter version of a jedi he could be with his limited resources and knowledge. He’s going through some shit. It takes yoda burning down the last surviving jedi texts for him to be freed from it.
You’re like wait a minute. How did he get to Point B? How is someone like Vader worthy of being saved? Someone who committed mass genocide and was part of a huge machine that committed mass genocide. Just being his father was enough and knowing there was a small amount of good in him. But having a vision of his nephew falling to the Dark Side is what does him in? What happened? So much of that film relies on you being able to suspend disbelief as a fan with prior knowledge and rely on knowing something did happen in between when we saw him last and now. I don’t know if they ever tied up that loose end.
While I understand Rian Johnson saying there’s people who needed to see that version of Luke. I needed to see what happened to Luke to get him to that version. To connect the old Luke with the new one.
See, I just can't take getting bent out of shape something as not real as extended "canon" being "retconned" as a real issue.
Canon isn't a concrete thing. It can be bent and broken to service the story being told at will. And it SHOULD be that way.
Does "decanonizing" the old EU suddenly make those stories disappear? Does it suddenly erase the fun fans had reading it? No.
Why people can't treat "canon" normally is beyond me. I literally cannot grasp, and I do mean *literally cannot understand* the mindset getting pissed that technically on paper certain stories *technically* didn't happen anymore in *ancillary* material.
Like, is a prerequisite of enjoy the original Thrawn trilogy or whatever hinged on it "actually happening" in the canon? Why?
Why can't people just engage in the old EU normally and enjoy it as an expanded part of the story in and of itself?
People take this shit so insanely serious that they ruin their own relationship with it because they feel attacked by vapor.
People really need to learn to enjoy stories as stories. I feel it's blatantly pathetic so many fans think a story only matters if it's stamped as "canon." Canon has no inherent value. The STORY does.
One of the prime examples I can think of is how Rian Johnson said he likes to make his movies divisive and ideally wants people to love or hate it. Leslye Headland said that they were moving away from George’s idea of the force, which I don’t think it was a good idea to say, as it just further divided the fans
That’s true, but he still kinda followed through with that idea with TLJ, which contributed to it feeling like it had a lack of continuity with other films imo
The thing is, people who watched Star Wars as kids were blind to the political stances and non-sensual science, they just saw cool laser swords and space battles. Now that they’re older, they have nostalgia blindness to all the political and non-sensical science, and become hypocritics with newer products.
Star Wars has always laughed in the face of science, because if George wanted a giant worm to live in a vacuum, he put it in there, if he wanted to make Palpatine a parallel to Nixon and then Bush, he was gonna do it.
If he was gonna write something that is scarily relevant to today’s political sphere, he was gonna do it: “So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause.”
So when Disney has the main villains be neo-nazis infiltrating the government (and literally destroying it), it fits perfectly in line with past Star Wars. As opposed to Legends, where >!the New Republic makes an alliance with the Fascists to defeat the Vong.!<
1970s, Leia talking back to the “manly man” Han and being more than a damsel in distress (without being a femme fatale villain) was extremely rare. So having LGBT+ inclusion was an inevitability and I’m here for it.
Star Wars fans are angry by default for some inexplicable reason.
When the prequels were coming out, people complained and hated.
When the sequels were coming out, people complained and hated.
Rogue One oddly has few haters, but I'm sure they just haven't been born yet. The next generation will probably hate it by default.
All the shows, cartoons, toys, books, comics, etc. have their haters.
Star Wars is too big to please everyone.
It's also too big to fail.
The key reason that it took a lot of time for people to get on board with Andor is the exact same reason why it is so fantastic. It is complex, mature and extremely well written. I don’t think fans were used to or expecting that, so weren’t paying attention enough while watching it, and got bored because they were not engaging at the level the show expects of its audience . It’s not family viewing though in the same way that classic Star Wars is, as in – you can’t watch it with very young children. Aside from the subject matter being challenging for that age group, Andor’s dialogue has a lot of subtext which is easily missed on a surface level.
What is probably needed for future productions is good writing for the more family-oriented material.
Nothing. Nor should it. It should continue to produce content. I don’t know when people decided that movies (or TV or Books) were all supposed to be choose your own adventures. Creativity is dying in Hollywood because creators can’t actually create without people being in a hullabaloo about something. The internet is an accursed place.
it's missing nothing. many people didn't like the sequels (that's not a problem those movies had many mistakes) and just carried the hate to all the other works released under Disney. if the stuff they see doesn't make sense in the first 5 seconds it's bad to them. I've legit seen people say "you know it's going to be a bad series when disney puts a black or a lesbian woman as the lead". they're watching with the intention to hate and have lost the ability to form original ideas.
i also criticize some releases but i also enjoy star wars as a whole. i don't go out of my way to nitpick certain details and dismiss an entire tv show or a movie
Don’t get it twisted, what you see online is not real and the internet is just a bunch of whiney crybabies for the most part that don’t like seeing women & POC in Star Wars or have their media illiterate ideas of how they think things should be compromised.
We don’t need to appease them because there is nothing that will appease them, they enjoy bitching and meaning about literally everything no matter what it is. Hell they brought Luke Skywalker back and made him a bad ass but then they could not shut the fuck up about the CG, there is nothing that will make them happy.
But again, this is the Internet MINORITY, what you see online is not representative of the populace. Mind you, nearly 12 million people tuned in to the first two episodes of The Acolyte in its first five days and 4.8 million on the first day which is the biggest Disney+ debut this year (and likely one of the best ever) which trails Ahsoka’s near 15 million in the first five days which was one of the best debuts on Disney+ last year. All this is compounded by The Mandalorian being the biggest Disney+ show out of them all with S3 having some of the best numbers of the show and platform. It’s closely followed by Ahsoka & Obi-Wan Kenobi and they easily beat out most of not all of the Marvel shows, sans Loki, which is comparable. The Bad Batch also does quite well and had a sizable chunk of all viewership on Disney+ this year and I don’t know if The Clone Wars S7 has accurate numbers but it was also huge. The Book of Boba Fett saw similar numbers to the average Marvel show but for the most part is below Loki but performed better than most other Marvel shows like Falcon & Winter Soldier. Andor is easily the worst performing Star Wars however being well below most Marvel shows and The Book of Boba Fett, while achieved high critical success it’s numbers tell us the show is not what the general audience actually wants out of Star Wars.
All that said, Star Wars is thriving currently and is easily keeping Disney+ up there in performance metrics. There is a reason The Mandalorian is getting a theatrical movie, it will bring people in and make money. I would also guarantee Skeleton Crew gets a huge debut this December if it’s marketed well. But anyways, the Internet is a very fake place!
Shows like The Mandalorian (Seasons 2 and 3), Book of Boba Fett, Ahsoka and The Acolyte are just missing the writing quality that people want. They're a bit simple, stiff and mannered in a way that doesn't engender strong emotion and engagement. They go down like candy confection, leaving a faint sugary after-taste and no nutritional value.
Andor is a full blown steak dinner. It has *substance*. That's what the people want. Characters that feel emotionally present and relatable. Stories that have high drama, stakes and realism.
Personally, I’m not angry but I’m getting less and less interested in new Star Wars stories over time. I can say that what would help for me is better writing.
I liked TFA and TLJ despite any flaws. I liked the Mandalorian s1-2. I liked Rogue One. I liked Andor. The Star Wars movies/shows I have disliked I think have been due to (imo) poor writing. Other things are secondary - like I wasn’t totally on board with some story and character decisions in TFA and TLJ, but I was still able to enjoy them.
Another thing that I’d love to see in the series is for new material to not have to be beholden to canon. There is a pre-existing rich history of stories outside of canon that has been around for decades, and I’d love to be able to see these stories get adapted or be allowed to continue. Even if live action stories are kept strictly canon, I don’t see why we couldn’t get animated Legends stories or book continuations.
99% of the anger is just coming from the fact that angry content sells. Most people are not "angered" by Star Wars, it just generates more clicks online
I'm surprised how few comments here are saying that the new content just isn't that interesting. The shows either have bad pacing, poor storytelling, or both. Usually both. They do a decent job at expanding the visual language of Star Wars, but I just don't care what happens in any of it anymore.
I think the biggest problem is hiring directors to helm these shows just because they are good at directing TV. I want Star Wars to be made by Star Wars nerds who know everything. Not professional directors who have an idea for a show. I feel like Disney is just hiring and tasking creators with telling a story. There are very few people who seem to understand the idea of fitting into a broader universe. So it mostly feels disjointed and meaningless.
Uhh an absence of content maybe? I think there’s too much of it coming out and a lot of it just isn’t that interesting. There’s a lot of potential in shows like Obi Wan and Book of Boba Fett but they never quite live up to it. I think they’d be better off putting more resources into less content to make said content better.
It’s missing fans with media literacy. Aside from the racism and sexism, most complaints are literally answered in the shows they endlessly bitch about.
It’s bananas seeing complaints every day when things are straight up laid out for you in the product.
The creators are up against some powerful things to overcome: firstly, nostalgia; even if you made something as good, as novel and incentive as Star Wars 77, it would still fail in comparison, because what people really want is to feel the way they felt back then- full of curiosity, wonder, excitement, and a new sense of what was possible. This is exceptionally difficult because first of all, "what is possible" has been explored in dozens of movies with literally hundreds of millions of dollars in special effects, so the nuance of seeing the incredible innovation of a "lightsaber" or super intricate miniatures against handpainted backdrops just doesn't cut it anymore.
Regarding compelling mysteries, the trick is it's always easier to present a mystery than it is to deliver a compelling finale (I'd argue even the original trilogy has this problem with some clumsily handled tieing up loose ends).
Furthermore, you've got to contend with a pretty significant, archetypal mythological scale of a hero's journey. If you repeat it, you're 'boring and derivative' (TFA), and if you don't repeat it, you're 'not fulfilling the saga's legacy' (TLJ). You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
Most of all, you have to have a story that means something, and that's terribly difficult to find if you are also in the business of appealing to as wide an audience as possible. There's a sort of reverse logic here; 'Star Wars appealed to the public and they decided it was good " and "Star Wars was good, so it appealed to the public" sound like the same sentence, but it isn't.
Star Wars, it could be argued, created the modern blockbuster. But that's not because of the external subject matter (Wars in space), it was because of the INTERNAL subject matter. What it's really about is the yearning for adventure, romance, self-discovery, good vs evil, etc etc.
Because we're appealing to the masses, creators are now afraid to have bad guys who are too bad. Creators are afraid to be exploring too much, perhaps because of backlash? I'm of the opinion that The Last Jedi was a masterpiece, but it's cultural impact is fascinating and I don't know exactly how it impacts decision making from higher-ups at Disney, or how the Fandom Menace figures into their business decision-making.
For more on this subject, I suggest the New York Time's article about Jenny Nicholson's 4-hour Star Wars Hotel review, which also talks about the strange relationship fans have with corporations right now.
I think there are a lot of reasons. First of all, everyone else becomes the same person when on SoMe. You see one person complain about Acolyte and someone else complain about Andor, but because it's social media (and anonymous on Reddit), you conclude that "they" don't like Acolyte or Andor. The true "haters", the r/SaltierThanCrait users, are most likely just a very vocal minority, but mix that in with people having different tastes, and suddenly it seems like everyone hates everything.
For me however, I watch a lot of content. I love the universe of star wars, but it's too disconnected. The quality is lacking (mainly when look at the world building and the dialogue). The thematic appeal of original Star Wars is lost in most of the new media, and instead of simply being a universe to tell stories in, it's become a franchise that needs to push out quick content, whether it's good or bad.
The fact that I watch a lot of content, means that I have to prioritize, and I don't really feel like prioritizing Star Wars anymore, since the quality is mostly way worse than more handpicked shows (now a days there are nearly always at least one great show releasing on some streaming service). Adding in the fact that I have my nostalgia for earlier Star Wars, and then nothing will really hit the note I'm looking for...
Besides Andor. Well, besides Andor, Tale of the Jedi and Jedi Fallen order. They felt focused, the dialogue was good (though on very different levels) and the world building along with character work fits with the universe. They don't go for "epic", they go for "personal" and I love that. They feel relatable, even though it's a Sci-Fi/fantasy universe. That's just how I see it though...
The entire franchise has become a grind. It’s over saturated, and we all watch this shit thats trying to reliably recapture what’s best about the series.
There’s lots that’s good about it, but lots that is incomplete, and flawed. There should be no expectation that Star Wars is seen in a universal way anymore like in 1977. Most of what we see onscreen is based on money and nostalgia, and we all see something vastly different when we watch modern Star Wars.
Not sure what we’re hoping to gain discussing our knee jerk reactions to Disney plus shows… The inevitable result is to cluster with people you enjoy discussing Star Wars with and avoiding the rest xD
Fans are watching what they want. Clickbait influencers complain for a living.
Algo tells them to attack whatever's trending; Star Wars has been tending since 1978.
Welcome to the Cantina! Friendly reminder regarding the Reddit spoiler tag which is as follows, \>!Spoilers go here\!< The Cantina and many other subreddits have been protesting Reddit leadership due the changes in policy regarding 3rd Party Apps. Subreddits depend on 3rd Party Apps to keep the communities moderated, functioning, and running smoothly. If you enjoy this subreddit and the countless others on Reddit, please help us try and save 3rd Party Apps. Please visit /r/Save3rdPartyApps and /r/ModCoord for more information. See this [Infographic here](https://i.redd.it/zqptto18e34b1.jpg) Consider using an Ad Blocker such as [UBlockOrigin](https://ublockorigin.com/). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/StarWarsCantina) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I do not think it's possible to avoid this with a franchise as visible as Star Wars and also as much a lightning rod for people's narratives as a result. There's a combination of very powerful nostalgia for the Star Wars of their youth, a perception that Star Wars was not commercialized until recently, content creators focusing on "controversies" for engagement bait and reveneue, and the effects of internet echo chambers in fandoms that are at play here. Social media has in particular made the latter pretty bad, even compared to forums and such of the past. I think most fans generally don't have these kinds of sentiments or really spend most of their time absorbing it, the internet however has a tendency to make them look more dominant than they are. I think most fans are generally of the mind that they'll watch/read/play what interests them and skip the ones they don't care for as much. More importantly, they don't let the stuff they don't like occupy such a large part of their activities. Again Star Wars is large and varied enough that people can find plenty of content that is more to their liking.
My gut feeling is that the majority of Star Wars fans (and by "fan" I'm counting anyone who likes Star Wars) are not venturing onto social media and forums specifically to discuss the franchise. Some are casual fans who only watch the movies from time to time, some are like my dad who absolutely consider themselves fans but don't consume every little bit of Star Wars media. I think it's mostly the die hards for whom being a Star Wars fan is a significant part of their identity that make up a lot of the online discourse. And that group of people tend to be very passionate about a franchise and how it's treated (this is true of any popular media.) Most fans who just watch the films when they release or pick up the occasional book or streaming series might have things they dislike about certain media, but it doesn't bother them enough to go online venting about it. The online anger toward franchises and the new content they're pumping out is partially a minority, but it's also partially manufactured. I've lost track of how many Youtube channels I've seen featuring rage bait videos declaring "new such-and-such movie/series is trash" with a thumbnail of the creator screaming at the camera. It's an industry that relies upon negativity plays on fan ire to survive.
Ironically if SW went away, they would be out of a job. Nothing gets clicks like SW.
this is exactly right. I have some SW posters in my background for work calls, I've never heard anyone complain about or even really delineate "modern" SW from other periods. It's just a thing people love to watch with their kids, single people love the shows and are eager to ask me about them. For every person angry on a youtube comment section there are thousands or tens of thousands of people who just don't care and will never engage beyond their enjoyment of the thing itself, in the moment
Oh yeah, I'm 100% in agreement here. >a perception that Star Wars was not commercialized until recently Which is really insane. Star Wars is the originator of the modern commercializing of movie franchises. There was (and is) so much merch. Action figures, breakfast cereals, props, I remember my mom having an R2D2 cake pan when I was a kid. It went to the point that it became a big gag in the parody Spaceballs way back in 1987. The whole EU came out of commercialization, not deep artistic expression. Capitalizing on the love of the movies by making comics and books and games. I love Star Wars, but to deny that commercialization was a major part of it going back to the beginning is insane. That's what made Lucas his big money. >Again Star Wars is large and varied enough that people can find plenty of content that is more to their liking. Oh yeah, this is a huge strength of the franchise, that even Lucas seems to have missed with dismissing certain criticisms with "It's for the kids." Because it's clearly not *just* for kids. The current crop of Star Wars content really does seem to be leaning into this strength. The Mandalorian is effectively a Space Western with the wandering gunfighter protecting this kid and finding new aspects of himself in the process. Andor is a deeply political thriller. The Acolyte is a mystery exploring the flaws in perceptions of events and has a neat Wuxia influence on it's action. There's a lot of sub-genre's and different ideas that can be explored through the framework of Star Wars. Some might not be as good as others, or work for an individual, like you pointed out. But there's likely something else that is. Andor won't necessarily appeal to those wanting to get Jedi heroics. While The Mandalorian won't really appeal to those wanting a deep political dive. But that's ok, not all of it has to be for everyone. You can like certain parts more than others, but someone else might like the opposite. It's a strength, but the haters see it as a weakness. Another aspect I see coming into things is a generational aspect. When people come into Star Wars and with what media seems to dramatically change their impression of what it's all about. I'm 45 I grew up with the original trilogy and can't even remember when I first saw Star Wars, probably as an infant. So I see things centered on the Original Trilogy as the core of the series, and the stuff that came later are add-ons that sometimes don't quite work as well and sometimes do. But many of those who grew up with the Prequels, they seem to see those as the core of Star Wars and everything to grow from there, which has a logic as they're chronologically set before the original trilogy. So they see everything through that lens while I see things through the OT lens where the Prequels were shoehorned in rather than the foundation of the series. Which leads to differing ideas on what the whole thing should be about.
> a perception that Star Wars was not commercialized until recently Man, this is the weirdest take in the history of weird takes, given how Lucas has said in so many interviews that the merchandise is what makes the money...
“Merchandising! Merchandising! Where the real money from the movie is made!”
This… if you look back far enough there were fans raging about Star Wars back in the 80s. People always loved Star Wars but hated it - whether it was the Disney Plus shows, the Sequel Trilogy, the Prequels, Jar Jar specifically, the ewoks or even Yoda when Empire first came out. Whatever happens next in SW there will be someone who will say “that’s it, franchise ruined!”
Anyone who doesn't think Star Wars wasn't commercialized from day one is naive or just doesn't know what they're talking about. Star Wars figures were ALL OVER THE PLACE in the late 70's. My younger brother still has some stashed in a box somewhere. The Ewoks were supposed to be Wookies, but we're changed to make nice, cute stuffed toys for little kids. Halloween of '77, I was Obi Wan and he was Vader.
Well said. I look at Snyders new attempt at world building with Rebel, and even with its flaws it isint being weighed against a cemented fan base engulphed by previous lore. So it has an easier time introducing evolutions to sci fi archetypes. Again, not great product IMO, but also not judged as any kind of technical betrayal of expectation.
Ever since the very first teaser of the new Disney Star Wars dropped, from the very first scene of that teaser being the face of a black stormtrooper, there's been a political movement to harrass Star Wars and especially the minorities involved in it under the pretense of "critically engaging with the media as fans". Not finding the new stuff good, being disappointed and angry, isn't a reaction, it's a pre-set goal.
This is it. This is the answer we needed. It makes me feel so bad for the actors. Those same fans turn right around and act like they’re the victims of their childhood being ruined by Disney
This is literally the answer. They have spoken
And they hide behind the same boring argument of "bAd WrItInG". Everyone today is apparently a masterclass writer
Wonky writing is a Star Wars staple. Expecting anything else is folly.
The problem is it's not just Star Wars. Nobody wants to meaningfully engage in media to enjoy it anymore. Everyone wants to find the flaws so they feel smart
Truth. Too many people feel a duty to criticize everything they watch, as though it's their job to provide feedback to the studios. But the vast majority of those "legitimate criticisms" are stupid nitpicks at best, or outright bigotry at worst. These people are incapable of just enjoying things.
Some people just like being miserable
Not just like it, but are actually addicted to it.
Like there was once a time where you papered over flaws or gaps in a story with your imagination, so that you could ignore them and enjoy the story for its merits. Now people seem to be more interested in finding those little gaps so they can point them out online for clicks or imaginary internet points. It’s such a bizarre and toxic phenomenon. Later seasons of GOT were the worst for it. I can fully appreciate that it wasn’t as good as early seasons, but I was still really enjoying myself (not to mention that if the show had debuted with Season 8, it would still have been the best fantasy show ever made). But it was near impossible to find anywhere online to engage positively about the show, because everyone just wanted to tear it apart and point out “bad writing.”
People complained about the missing bits, calling it "bad writing". So studios started spelling everything out and spoon feeding it to us, and they still complain about "bad writing".
If you ask them though what good writing is they probably can’t answer.
this, 100%. I'd also say there is a segment of people who are just mad they are not 12 anymore (they don't know this is the root cause, though)
Meanwhile, the *actual plots* of the new stuff are about as Milquetoast as it gets. Obvious Good Guys defeat Obvious Bad Guys. They don't have the anti-Vietnam message of the OT, nor the anti-War-on-Terror message of the PT. In fact, the most political New Star Wars Story out there, is also the most beloved, Andor! People who say New Star Wars is Too Political are wrong. It's not political enough!
The rise of neofascists seems about as pointedly politically engaged in the zeitgeist as Star Wars has ever been. Ben Solo turns out to be anything but an obvious bad guy. Star Wars engages in cyclical mythological structures, so while the plot may bear resemblance to what has come before that’s only because it’s working with the big plot that pretty much all myths operate under, while the characters and their journey to enlightenment is absolutely fresh and invigorating.
Idk, if the past few years are any indication, people very much need to be reminded that obvious bad guys are in fact obvious bad guys and that fascism is bad and regular people need to stand against it
That is an excellent point. But The Force Awakens came out in 2015, and I don't think anyone at that point in time really thought the next President would be inviting literal Nazis to storm the Capitol.
The sequel trilogy is very political. It has at least as strong anti-imperialist messages but it specifically targets neo-fascism which is a lot more relevant today. There are also strong undercurrents of the virtues of collective action over the hero standing alone, and in The Last Jedi political themes saturated the movie, from the reason Luke was in hiding to the dichotomy of military power structures, which are idolized, to governmental, which are typically mocked as ineffective. Don't even get me started on the politics of having all the leadership roles of the heroes being women.
It’s missing nothing. Also, the majority of the fanbase IS appeased. There is a vocal minority of malcontented morons out there, and the social media algorithms amplify their voices because that’s what gets clicks. Don’t feed them.
Yea - definitely this.
I agree with this. I’ve been enjoying all of the Star Wars content we’ve been getting, and I don’t pay much attention to the critics. The unfortunate problem with the vocal minority is it’s very much a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation. Make a key character black, a woman, gay or trans and you get backlash from bigots. Don’t add those characters and you get backlash for not being inclusive of people from different backgrounds and walks of life. I’ve seen comments made about Jedi: Fallen Order/Survivor for having a straight white protagonist, when it could have been a minority. But then you look at every other character in the game and see that everyone is either female, a PoC, LGBTQ, or an alien species, with significant cross over between those groups. People complain and cause drama purely because they have nothing better to do and just want to get attention. But you’re right, the vast majority of people really enjoy the Star Wars content
Man, I am on a lot of Star Wars spaces and read and interact with a lot of shit and I do not think I’ve ever seen someone upset that Cal isn’t a minority. Not once. Ever. Not really sure this is a both sides are doing it situation
Indeed. It's not missing anything, it's just adding something for everyone. That alone is enough to piss off assholes. People with a zero sum game mindset can't stand the thought of Star Wars things being made that aren't for them specifically. My friends and I have been enjoying our own Star Wars stories since the 90s via tabletop RPGs, so maybe that helped me be more open-minded when it comes to new Star Wars media. I'm just excited to see so many new stories taking place in different little corners of my favorite fictional universe. If people think something is missing, they're welcome to write their own stories and include it instead of trying to tear down content that others are enjoying.
I don't know if it's Star Wars that's missing anything. There's a lot of media illiteracy in the fandom, a fundamental misunderstanding of what Star Wars *is* (I recall there was a recent uproar about... fire in space, of all things). Remember when everyone whined about loose threads in the short-run Obi Wan series... and then, oops, everything got tied up in literally the next couple of episodes, *a week later.* It's embarrassing. How could you be a fan of the biggest pulp space opera series in history (move over, Flash Gordon) and expect scientific accuracy, a plot that makes perfect logical sense top to bottom, and some *serious* drama that would feel at home on HBO? Star Wars is a *fun* series, first and foremost. And if you can't have fun with it, for whatever reason, maybe it's not for you. For whatever reason, some chuds have a real problem with that.
Nothing. Star Wars has been angering people ever since the prequels. I don’t think there’s anything Lucasfilm can do to change that trend. No matter how good a project is, there will always be people upset by it because it’s not what they wanted to see.
Let's be real it's been angering people since ~~Empire~~ The Holiday Special
I remember a newspaper article being published in the main sub. TESB had just come put. The author loved two Star Wars things prior to this, the original movie and the Marvel comics. They said TESB ruined Star Wars. Tbh it makes me feel better that this weird hatred was around as early as that. I can't take fans seriously who hate on literally everything.
I remember seeing a newsletter from a fan club that was disbanding (I think) because Empire was too dark and not THEIR Star Wars. It was circulating on Reddit for a while.
Yeah I think I saw that. Time heals many wounds, ultimately I don't think anyone could have anticipated how beloved the prequels would become. Even myself as a love since I was a kid.
I've hated Star Wars since the opening shot of first film, with the Star Destroyer chasing down the *Tantive IV*. It's ridiculous and unrealistic because spaceships don't exist./s
Once upon a time, Star Wars was a single story, the Skywalker Saga. It’s now a franchise, and eventually, people need to accept that there will be parts of it that simply aren’t for them. And that’s fine. Marvel Comics publishes nearly (if not over) 100 titles per month, very…very few readers buy or read every single one of them. Hell, I’m not even sure if the majority of X-fans read every single X-Men related book they put out…why? Because it’s a big tent, and they want to make sure every demographic is at least tangentially covered. Even the Star Wars comics follow this approach. Doctor Aphra’s book was very tonally different than the Darth Vader book or the main title. Disney has given Lucasfilm the freedom to branch out and try new things. I love Andor because it’s so totally different…but I love Acolyte because it feels so much like something George Lucas would have created. There are other shows I don’t particularly care for, but I don’t dwell on those because…well, they’re not for me, but others seem to dig them.
[](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsCantina/comments/1depj3r/comment/l8dkdaz/) >Once upon a time, Star Wars was a single story, the Skywalker Saga. That didn't last very long. There were spinoff cartoons even back then. The Holiday Special. The Ewoks series of movies. Metric tons of comics, novels, and video games. People who think Disney is ruining Star Wars with too much content simply have the benefit of survivorship bias: they remember the GOOD things from the past, because we decided to forget all the bad.
And even then, it *didn't* start as the Skywalker Saga. It was the story of Luke, Leia and Han and their adventures against the Empire. The whole Skywalker family focus didn't really show up until partway through writing Empire Strikes Back when it was decided to have Vader as Luke's father. And then the Prequels made Anakin The Chosen One and cemented the story being about this family, when it really wasn't to begin with. I personally prefer it not being about the Skywalkers. The emphasis on bloodlines is a trope I hate.
Yup. Almost every piece of Star Wars media is someone's favorite Star Wars thing.
Holiday Special! I just love Chewie's dad watching hologram porn! /s
I almost googled to see if this was real, but luckily did a double take and saw the /s Thank you for the chuckle
It kind of is, but exaggerated for effect. [The Holiday special does have a sequence where Chewie's dad watches some kind of VR thing that seems a bit porny while still being safe for network TV. ](https://youtu.be/6hH8rxarVG8?si=gTxCuYduV94FaA91&t=1713)I can't make it all that far though the holiday special. Like the first 30 minutes is wookies grunting at each other with no subtitles.
I don't think it's missing anything beyond the imperfections of being novel. It's like looking at a band and expecting them to be like their debut album. The band has moved on from the rough edges of the learning have rubbed off from experience and moved in to a different realm. Also, audience members have grown up, and look back at Star Wars, and those glasses of memories. It prompts a different feeling back then, than now. People want to recapture that youth, that "glory days," as a song writer notes, but it's different now and that's ok.
I agree on the glasses of memories so to speak. Many of the complaints about new Star Wars movies and shows are things that they don't seem to mind in the older content.
Star Wars isn’t angering anyone. Angry people watch Star Wars and then cry the same way they cry about everything else. For normal people, Star Wars is doing just fine.
This is the truth of it. The people that are mad all the time are the smallest, most vocal minority there is.
I don't think it's "angering so many people"....mostly, there's definitely some folk who seem to be on a crusade against Disney Star Wars no matter what....and the worse people hating for more bigoted reasons. However, I just think the fanbase is so *wide*. It has spread across generations, people got into it in different ways, prefer different eras, different concepts. I have a buddy who hates it when the franchise focuses on the same few people, and loves more exploratory world building. I've seen people clamor for even more Clone Wars content. I have older relatives that are OT purists. There's people who are just all about the Jedi being badass. Now everytime you put out a show, all the groups of the fanbase you *didn't* target can make their opinions way more visible than when Star Wars was restricted to just games, books and comics.
I think it’s multiple things. 1. Some “bad”/just ok stuff got made that ruined certain fans perception of Star Wars (rise of skywalker) and made them stop caring enough to watch the newer shows 2. People that watch YouTubers too much to form their own opinions
Consistency in quality
They’re not kids anymore, and the current stuff isn’t giving them the same feeling that it did when they were children because they’re not children. I think it’s that simple. Then ragebaiters and ideologues and, most likely, people being paid by other media companies make up shallow but initially striking arguments about what’s wrong with all this media/society/etc. that takes some people in and gets them repeating the empty rhetoric. EDIT: I wanted to add that there are also people who legitimately went in with an open mind looking for reasons to like the movies & didn’t. I’m not saying everyone has to or should. Just that there’s a lit of hot air mixed in with this that drowns out the real critiques.
I don’t think it’s what’s missing from Star Wars, I think it’s what’s missing from the lives of the people who get all bent out of shape about Star Wars.
Mara Jade's an obvious favorite. Zayne Carrick is an old favorite of mine I'd love to see in the new canon.
Cohesion and respect for the material.
I think a lot of "review" sites are just looking to look cool by bashing SW. Almost everything that people whine about in current content was around in the OT and PT, but we can't talk about that. Personally I really enjoy all of the content. I let my enjoyment free me from the shackles of fanboyism
If we could stop referring to everything as "content" that could help too. Sorry, not trying to throw strays at you specifically, but I think the adoption and proliferation of people referring to art (yes even corporately produced IP projects are art) as "content" is part of the problem. It invites people, consciously and unconsciously, to view everything they watch in a detached and cynical way.
Let's be honest, they could re-release Empire if they wanted and people would still find a way to complain
I think some of the best of Star Wars is following characters who are no force users trying to survive in a universe of force users. Ordinary people thrust into extraordinary circumstance by just trying to survive. I would love to see more of that.
I don't think there's anything missing. I think the problem (besides one other that the top comment already mentioned) is the fans' expectations for the type of stories being told. For example, let's look at the Bad Batch. There were a fair amount of people who went in expecting the Star Wars version of the A Team. That's not what we got. Instead, we got a more personal story about a family struggling to live in a changed galaxy. When viewed through that lens, it's fantastic. It's a great family drama. But it's not a great A Team show and some fans decided it was bad because their expectations were not met. Another expectation that fans have right now is for every show to cater to their preference. And that's just not going to happen with Star Wars branching out to new genres and types of storytelling. I think people need to accept that just because it isn't to their taste, doesn't mean it's absolute trash. For example, I appreciate Hemingway and think that he was a really good writer. I also do not like his style and wouldn't ever read his stuff for pleasure. Some stories aren't for you and that's okay.
I’d be wary of any claim about how any supposed majority of fans feels about anything.
> seemingly That's the key word. Seemingly. The Internet is not a representative sample of society as a whole. What reaches the front page of algorithmicly curated platforms is not representative of the Internet. I think it's angering a small group of people who have become somewhat addicted to anger, and an even smaller group of content creators who have realised that this can be profitable.
Nothing. The anger at Star Wars is a symptom of wider polarization, not of Star Wars itself. *Everyone* is divided about *everything,* and any attempt to make a product that will offend no one will necessarily be a failure due to sheer lack of uniqueness. What's missing is a guiding vision, *any* vision, and the willingness to follow through on that vision across the board. That's why shows like Andor and Filoni's animated projects do so well, because they have such focused direction at the highest level.
Social media algorithms prioritize outrage content and Star Wars is one of the most famous IPs in the world so it’s easy to make it for and guarantees a lot of views. That’s really it imo.
What is missing? A willingness to let someone take you on a journey through story rather than being hurt because they didn't take the story where you wanted it to go.
Not everyone is going to like everything. It’s just what happens when you have a large IP like Star Wars. We’re almost what? 50 years into Star Wars? It’s like some people have said, Star Wars means different things for different people. Everyone is going to have a different opinion because we all went through different things and took away different things. With that being said, I think Legends being retconned before Disney put out their own stuff was always going to rub people the wrong way. While I understand why they did it. It still took almost 20 years worth of content and made it obsolete. That’s a whole generation. While some people got over it. Not everyone did. For some people that’s their star wars and while some stuff was allowed to be canon. It’s never been fully utilized within the current canon. There’s a lot of loose ends for their star wars. It makes sense there would be lingering feelings. Then you have some who talk about Legends like it never existed or downplay it. It creates further friction. Everyone has their own ideas of what star wars means to them. I think the thing Star Wars is missing. There is so much that happens off screen. One of Star Wars’s biggest strengths is one of its biggest weaknesses. Telling incomplete stories. Best example: Rian Johnson’s version of Luke. You see the most hopeful, optimistic person with a very unconventional jedi background. Save someone like Vader because of his attachments to others. Then he turns around. He’s jaded. He’s the most cookie cutter version of a jedi he could be with his limited resources and knowledge. He’s going through some shit. It takes yoda burning down the last surviving jedi texts for him to be freed from it. You’re like wait a minute. How did he get to Point B? How is someone like Vader worthy of being saved? Someone who committed mass genocide and was part of a huge machine that committed mass genocide. Just being his father was enough and knowing there was a small amount of good in him. But having a vision of his nephew falling to the Dark Side is what does him in? What happened? So much of that film relies on you being able to suspend disbelief as a fan with prior knowledge and rely on knowing something did happen in between when we saw him last and now. I don’t know if they ever tied up that loose end. While I understand Rian Johnson saying there’s people who needed to see that version of Luke. I needed to see what happened to Luke to get him to that version. To connect the old Luke with the new one.
This is a completely fair take. I think someone might pick up this thread in the future. Be it in a comic, novel, etc. I would love to see it
See, I just can't take getting bent out of shape something as not real as extended "canon" being "retconned" as a real issue. Canon isn't a concrete thing. It can be bent and broken to service the story being told at will. And it SHOULD be that way. Does "decanonizing" the old EU suddenly make those stories disappear? Does it suddenly erase the fun fans had reading it? No. Why people can't treat "canon" normally is beyond me. I literally cannot grasp, and I do mean *literally cannot understand* the mindset getting pissed that technically on paper certain stories *technically* didn't happen anymore in *ancillary* material. Like, is a prerequisite of enjoy the original Thrawn trilogy or whatever hinged on it "actually happening" in the canon? Why? Why can't people just engage in the old EU normally and enjoy it as an expanded part of the story in and of itself? People take this shit so insanely serious that they ruin their own relationship with it because they feel attacked by vapor. People really need to learn to enjoy stories as stories. I feel it's blatantly pathetic so many fans think a story only matters if it's stamped as "canon." Canon has no inherent value. The STORY does.
One of the prime examples I can think of is how Rian Johnson said he likes to make his movies divisive and ideally wants people to love or hate it. Leslye Headland said that they were moving away from George’s idea of the force, which I don’t think it was a good idea to say, as it just further divided the fans
Johnson said that in 2005 and said he regretted it afterwards, though
That’s true, but he still kinda followed through with that idea with TLJ, which contributed to it feeling like it had a lack of continuity with other films imo
The thing is, people who watched Star Wars as kids were blind to the political stances and non-sensual science, they just saw cool laser swords and space battles. Now that they’re older, they have nostalgia blindness to all the political and non-sensical science, and become hypocritics with newer products. Star Wars has always laughed in the face of science, because if George wanted a giant worm to live in a vacuum, he put it in there, if he wanted to make Palpatine a parallel to Nixon and then Bush, he was gonna do it. If he was gonna write something that is scarily relevant to today’s political sphere, he was gonna do it: “So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause.” So when Disney has the main villains be neo-nazis infiltrating the government (and literally destroying it), it fits perfectly in line with past Star Wars. As opposed to Legends, where >!the New Republic makes an alliance with the Fascists to defeat the Vong.!< 1970s, Leia talking back to the “manly man” Han and being more than a damsel in distress (without being a femme fatale villain) was extremely rare. So having LGBT+ inclusion was an inevitability and I’m here for it.
Star Wars fans are angry by default for some inexplicable reason. When the prequels were coming out, people complained and hated. When the sequels were coming out, people complained and hated. Rogue One oddly has few haters, but I'm sure they just haven't been born yet. The next generation will probably hate it by default. All the shows, cartoons, toys, books, comics, etc. have their haters. Star Wars is too big to please everyone. It's also too big to fail.
It pre dates the prequels. Remember "Han Shot First" from when the special editions came out in 97.
That was a bad change tho
The Despecialized Editions are the way to go.
True 👍
Stoicism
George Lucas.
Nothing. Just ignore the grifters stirring up hate for clicks.
The key reason that it took a lot of time for people to get on board with Andor is the exact same reason why it is so fantastic. It is complex, mature and extremely well written. I don’t think fans were used to or expecting that, so weren’t paying attention enough while watching it, and got bored because they were not engaging at the level the show expects of its audience . It’s not family viewing though in the same way that classic Star Wars is, as in – you can’t watch it with very young children. Aside from the subject matter being challenging for that age group, Andor’s dialogue has a lot of subtext which is easily missed on a surface level. What is probably needed for future productions is good writing for the more family-oriented material.
Nothing. Nor should it. It should continue to produce content. I don’t know when people decided that movies (or TV or Books) were all supposed to be choose your own adventures. Creativity is dying in Hollywood because creators can’t actually create without people being in a hullabaloo about something. The internet is an accursed place.
it's missing nothing. many people didn't like the sequels (that's not a problem those movies had many mistakes) and just carried the hate to all the other works released under Disney. if the stuff they see doesn't make sense in the first 5 seconds it's bad to them. I've legit seen people say "you know it's going to be a bad series when disney puts a black or a lesbian woman as the lead". they're watching with the intention to hate and have lost the ability to form original ideas. i also criticize some releases but i also enjoy star wars as a whole. i don't go out of my way to nitpick certain details and dismiss an entire tv show or a movie
Don’t get it twisted, what you see online is not real and the internet is just a bunch of whiney crybabies for the most part that don’t like seeing women & POC in Star Wars or have their media illiterate ideas of how they think things should be compromised. We don’t need to appease them because there is nothing that will appease them, they enjoy bitching and meaning about literally everything no matter what it is. Hell they brought Luke Skywalker back and made him a bad ass but then they could not shut the fuck up about the CG, there is nothing that will make them happy. But again, this is the Internet MINORITY, what you see online is not representative of the populace. Mind you, nearly 12 million people tuned in to the first two episodes of The Acolyte in its first five days and 4.8 million on the first day which is the biggest Disney+ debut this year (and likely one of the best ever) which trails Ahsoka’s near 15 million in the first five days which was one of the best debuts on Disney+ last year. All this is compounded by The Mandalorian being the biggest Disney+ show out of them all with S3 having some of the best numbers of the show and platform. It’s closely followed by Ahsoka & Obi-Wan Kenobi and they easily beat out most of not all of the Marvel shows, sans Loki, which is comparable. The Bad Batch also does quite well and had a sizable chunk of all viewership on Disney+ this year and I don’t know if The Clone Wars S7 has accurate numbers but it was also huge. The Book of Boba Fett saw similar numbers to the average Marvel show but for the most part is below Loki but performed better than most other Marvel shows like Falcon & Winter Soldier. Andor is easily the worst performing Star Wars however being well below most Marvel shows and The Book of Boba Fett, while achieved high critical success it’s numbers tell us the show is not what the general audience actually wants out of Star Wars. All that said, Star Wars is thriving currently and is easily keeping Disney+ up there in performance metrics. There is a reason The Mandalorian is getting a theatrical movie, it will bring people in and make money. I would also guarantee Skeleton Crew gets a huge debut this December if it’s marketed well. But anyways, the Internet is a very fake place!
Shows like The Mandalorian (Seasons 2 and 3), Book of Boba Fett, Ahsoka and The Acolyte are just missing the writing quality that people want. They're a bit simple, stiff and mannered in a way that doesn't engender strong emotion and engagement. They go down like candy confection, leaving a faint sugary after-taste and no nutritional value. Andor is a full blown steak dinner. It has *substance*. That's what the people want. Characters that feel emotionally present and relatable. Stories that have high drama, stakes and realism.
Personally, I’m not angry but I’m getting less and less interested in new Star Wars stories over time. I can say that what would help for me is better writing. I liked TFA and TLJ despite any flaws. I liked the Mandalorian s1-2. I liked Rogue One. I liked Andor. The Star Wars movies/shows I have disliked I think have been due to (imo) poor writing. Other things are secondary - like I wasn’t totally on board with some story and character decisions in TFA and TLJ, but I was still able to enjoy them. Another thing that I’d love to see in the series is for new material to not have to be beholden to canon. There is a pre-existing rich history of stories outside of canon that has been around for decades, and I’d love to be able to see these stories get adapted or be allowed to continue. Even if live action stories are kept strictly canon, I don’t see why we couldn’t get animated Legends stories or book continuations.
Walk outside. Talk to someone. Ask them if they enjoy Star Wars- odds are they do
99% of the anger is just coming from the fact that angry content sells. Most people are not "angered" by Star Wars, it just generates more clicks online
Exactly. Social media has made outrage a commodity.
I'm surprised how few comments here are saying that the new content just isn't that interesting. The shows either have bad pacing, poor storytelling, or both. Usually both. They do a decent job at expanding the visual language of Star Wars, but I just don't care what happens in any of it anymore.
I think the biggest problem is hiring directors to helm these shows just because they are good at directing TV. I want Star Wars to be made by Star Wars nerds who know everything. Not professional directors who have an idea for a show. I feel like Disney is just hiring and tasking creators with telling a story. There are very few people who seem to understand the idea of fitting into a broader universe. So it mostly feels disjointed and meaningless.
People online complaining are not the majority. FFS
Uhh an absence of content maybe? I think there’s too much of it coming out and a lot of it just isn’t that interesting. There’s a lot of potential in shows like Obi Wan and Book of Boba Fett but they never quite live up to it. I think they’d be better off putting more resources into less content to make said content better.
It’s missing fans with media literacy. Aside from the racism and sexism, most complaints are literally answered in the shows they endlessly bitch about. It’s bananas seeing complaints every day when things are straight up laid out for you in the product.
White male people apparently. At least according to the groups I’m in on Facebook lol
The creators are up against some powerful things to overcome: firstly, nostalgia; even if you made something as good, as novel and incentive as Star Wars 77, it would still fail in comparison, because what people really want is to feel the way they felt back then- full of curiosity, wonder, excitement, and a new sense of what was possible. This is exceptionally difficult because first of all, "what is possible" has been explored in dozens of movies with literally hundreds of millions of dollars in special effects, so the nuance of seeing the incredible innovation of a "lightsaber" or super intricate miniatures against handpainted backdrops just doesn't cut it anymore. Regarding compelling mysteries, the trick is it's always easier to present a mystery than it is to deliver a compelling finale (I'd argue even the original trilogy has this problem with some clumsily handled tieing up loose ends). Furthermore, you've got to contend with a pretty significant, archetypal mythological scale of a hero's journey. If you repeat it, you're 'boring and derivative' (TFA), and if you don't repeat it, you're 'not fulfilling the saga's legacy' (TLJ). You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Most of all, you have to have a story that means something, and that's terribly difficult to find if you are also in the business of appealing to as wide an audience as possible. There's a sort of reverse logic here; 'Star Wars appealed to the public and they decided it was good " and "Star Wars was good, so it appealed to the public" sound like the same sentence, but it isn't. Star Wars, it could be argued, created the modern blockbuster. But that's not because of the external subject matter (Wars in space), it was because of the INTERNAL subject matter. What it's really about is the yearning for adventure, romance, self-discovery, good vs evil, etc etc. Because we're appealing to the masses, creators are now afraid to have bad guys who are too bad. Creators are afraid to be exploring too much, perhaps because of backlash? I'm of the opinion that The Last Jedi was a masterpiece, but it's cultural impact is fascinating and I don't know exactly how it impacts decision making from higher-ups at Disney, or how the Fandom Menace figures into their business decision-making. For more on this subject, I suggest the New York Time's article about Jenny Nicholson's 4-hour Star Wars Hotel review, which also talks about the strange relationship fans have with corporations right now.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I think there are a lot of reasons. First of all, everyone else becomes the same person when on SoMe. You see one person complain about Acolyte and someone else complain about Andor, but because it's social media (and anonymous on Reddit), you conclude that "they" don't like Acolyte or Andor. The true "haters", the r/SaltierThanCrait users, are most likely just a very vocal minority, but mix that in with people having different tastes, and suddenly it seems like everyone hates everything. For me however, I watch a lot of content. I love the universe of star wars, but it's too disconnected. The quality is lacking (mainly when look at the world building and the dialogue). The thematic appeal of original Star Wars is lost in most of the new media, and instead of simply being a universe to tell stories in, it's become a franchise that needs to push out quick content, whether it's good or bad. The fact that I watch a lot of content, means that I have to prioritize, and I don't really feel like prioritizing Star Wars anymore, since the quality is mostly way worse than more handpicked shows (now a days there are nearly always at least one great show releasing on some streaming service). Adding in the fact that I have my nostalgia for earlier Star Wars, and then nothing will really hit the note I'm looking for... Besides Andor. Well, besides Andor, Tale of the Jedi and Jedi Fallen order. They felt focused, the dialogue was good (though on very different levels) and the world building along with character work fits with the universe. They don't go for "epic", they go for "personal" and I love that. They feel relatable, even though it's a Sci-Fi/fantasy universe. That's just how I see it though...
The entire franchise has become a grind. It’s over saturated, and we all watch this shit thats trying to reliably recapture what’s best about the series. There’s lots that’s good about it, but lots that is incomplete, and flawed. There should be no expectation that Star Wars is seen in a universal way anymore like in 1977. Most of what we see onscreen is based on money and nostalgia, and we all see something vastly different when we watch modern Star Wars. Not sure what we’re hoping to gain discussing our knee jerk reactions to Disney plus shows… The inevitable result is to cluster with people you enjoy discussing Star Wars with and avoiding the rest xD
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I think it's worth noting that if the modern (toxic) internet existed when the PT came out, it would have been even worse.
[удалено]
Fans are watching what they want. Clickbait influencers complain for a living. Algo tells them to attack whatever's trending; Star Wars has been tending since 1978.
[удалено]