Part of it also undermines the Sith and Palpatine.
If the Jedi act, they are a military force. If they don't, they are cowards who let billions die. The entire thing was a loss, no matter what side the Jedi took. They were doomed from the start because they tried to help the republic as much as they could and took on responsibilities that were simply too big for them because they had no big evil to slay anymore and wanted peace.
I think the idea that the Jedi are bad sprang from the intentional fact that the Jedi aren’t universally and entirely good. As you said hero’s can and should have flaws. And many of the jedis practices are morally dubious or at least misguided. However some people have taken that premise and run with it to the extreme of “actually Jedi are evil” without actually knowing what they’re talking about.
But even that right. Like, I actually can’t think of anything that the Jedi order itself does that is morally wrong. I think their ideals and way of life can be adverse to the materialist and postmodernist ideals and ways of life of lots of modern people, and because of that the backlash against the Jedi arises.
- The old Jedi order made itself the bitch of the government (which often enough leads to enforcing compromises or results that are not entirely fair - or even worse, ask Jango or Grievous)
- as seen from the outside the Order can seem like a religious cult that is not democratically voted, but has influence on politics, gets a lot of tax money (maintaining the temple, starships, etc) & can f.e. confiscate civilian ships "for the greater good", etc, while claiming they're ascetic & servants of the people
- to some the Jedi order lost contact to the normal people & wonder about abstract concepts of the good & dark side in their ivory towers while they should help f.e. enslaved people
- some people think the Jedi kidnap children. F.e. Lorn Pavan asked himself if letting Jax become a Jedi - which lead to Lorn being fired & started a downward spiral until he ended up in the dark criminal levels of Coruscant - was actually his choice or if he got mentally manipulated. This leads to the next point
- how suspicious would you be about people you heard about that they can manipulate your thoughts?
- in war you are sometimes pressured to do morally wrong things or you're forced to decide between your soldiers' lifes, the civilians lifes, etc. So as somebody who claims he's a defender of the good with a high moral standard you are pushed into a decision where to put your moral barrier on the "The end justifies the means"-scale
- using slave soldiers aka the clone army is another question for said scale
Some points here are more about how the Jedi were viewed in-universe, but these subjective views can also influence the view of the reader which might explain some irl people claiming the Jedi are bad
I have never seen this opinion before and I am terminally online.
The only time I've heard of it is when people on here complain about people having this opinion ad nauseam.
Oh boy is it everywhere. I've had debates with Jedi-Antis on Youtube, Reddit, even on Pinterest.
Hell my sisters' *fiancé* is a Jedi-Anti, though I doubt he's aware of the term.
Probably not that niche or unpopular, but Thrawn is still a villain, no matter what has been done to make him cooler or rehabilitate him. His end goal is still a totalitarian state run by his brand of military dictatorship. Maybe he's not needlessly repressive or tyrannical, or even willing to uphold all the tenets of the New Order, and even seems to have something resembling a sense of honor. He will still do whatever he deems necessary to subjugate the galaxy and crush any kind of dissent under the Imperial bootheel.
I'd compare Thrawn to certain elements of the Heer and Old Prussian conservatives; certainly not as bad as the NSDAP (The New Order) adherents, but still seeking an autocratic state and German (Imperial) domination over Europe (the Galaxy)
Heydrich would be closer to COMPNOR or the ISB taking control
My nerdy opinion: the DC15 rifle (the long rifle of the clone army) is stupid as a mainline assault rifle of the infantry while the DC15A or s model and later the e11 carbines exist. The long rifle is 1,3m long with the maximun range of 10km when fitted on a tripod, weighs 4,4 kg and has precision stock, long range telescopic sight and underbarrel rangefinder. All of this gizmo technical superiority means the rifle is worse than both the carbines used. Absolutely nobody expects firefights to happen on kilometer distances on regular basis. The lenght and weight means the user is basically toting around a super heavy polearm from middle ages instead of an assault rifle. All the while wookiepedia even states the rifle is often reloaded at the barracks since the 500shot gas magazine is so tricky to swap in field conditions.
Enter the carbines. Both have folding stocks, midrange optics, the ability to mount attachments and have much more compact dimensions. Yes, neither have the power of the dc15 nor the accuracy nor the range or the quality of shooting ergonomics like precision stock. In every case of pure technical sophistication they loose horribly. Which means that as infantry rifles they beat the dc15 99% of the time. The compactness, lack of complicated tech and suitable shooting characteristics (are accurate and lethal to 300-500m ranges, have controllable full auto modes and are sturdy and simple in desing) mean every non-specialized soldier is more than likely to prefer them.
I, just like every finnish male, served in the finnish army as a conscript. We have a very rudimentary combat training compared to say us army troops who are professional. We carried a variant of the ak rifle (rk62). No, it is not as accurate as a finely tuned sniper. No, the ergonomics are not even close to good hunting rifles and no, the 7,62mm bullet is not going to hit targets at 1km. But the rifle can do 300m shots, is cheap to build and even us conscripts learn to mantain and use it with limited training resources. Sure, the professionals of finnish army like spec ops snipers have Trg sniper rifles, but they are not the cannon fodder grunts.
Many times in media and in fandom the dc15 rifle is seen as the best gun around, even in universe people make fun of the lack of capability of the carbines. Yet there is reason why irl soldiers no longer use ww1 style bolt action guns, instead assault rifles with objectively all around "worse" performance. The reality is, your average conscript (that is, like 90% of soldiers) does not have the skills to fully utilize a high performace rifle. What is neede is a simple tool, not a surgical masterpiece.
Long write,sorry xD
Everything you’re saying is fair and correct but I feel you’re not including the fact that Clones weren’t meant to be cannon fodder like imperial troopers.
They were an outnumbered army but highly trained, even the grunts of it. Especially in the early war they were going to have to take out far more droids before they would be shot down or incapacitated.
The DC15 allows for this far more due to, as you say, its range; accuracy; and general usage capabilities.
I’m sure the equivalent of a Navy Seal wouldn’t mind carrying ~5kg of a gun if it meant they didn’t have to be as close and could be deadlier from afar when facing an outnumbering army of destroyer droids.
I imagine only Commandos wouldn’t use either gun since they actually do require more speed, considering their armour weight already, and are actually trained to essentially be in CCQ for majority of their deployments.
Well said, i didnt properly take into accord that clones are all basically spec op level pros. The rifle indeed suits them, yet still i think overall the reputation of the e11 and dc15s as being worse than the dc15 is still misplaced. Tho, i do realize this is purely my opinion- if someone said i got to pick a rifle ftom the 3 for deployment in star wars and i did not magically gain the skill of a clone,i would pick either of the short guns over the dc15 any day :D
I actually think you are still absolutely right that the long DC15 rifle is actually the worst choice in-universe despite the clones being spec ops trained. The earlier clones have more regiments that are independently minded with higher initiative and creativity as well as specialized training such as the ARC troopers. This was important in ensuring that the clones don't lose the Clone Wars right away due to superior numbers of the droid armors at the start of the war.
Later on, these special regiments are phased out for a more standardized and loyal army, one that is better suited to killing their Jedi commanders (and friends in many cases).
That reduction in initiative combined with less stringent training AND the military advantages of shorter lighter weapons is why in Revenge of the Sith, you see all the clones with much shorter carbine-type rifles that are much easier to handle, lighter and more compact, and have a much higher rate of fire.
I once stated offhand on [theforce.net](http://theforce.net) that Luke's fantasy dream with Camie in the Last Jedi novelization (someone who had bullied him and called him Wormie) seemed out of character (out of character that his dream would be with someone like her instead of any other women he'd met who were kinder to him). The response was so vicious and crossed legal lines that I had to hire a law firm to get involved.
I guess in retrospect the above was my most controversial Star Wars opinion for some reason. The whole incident still has me shaken up.
Hold up, we got rid of Mara Jade so that Luke could have fantasies about *Camie*? And this is what so many are proclaiming to be the best that Star Wars has ever been?
Gotta watch out for those ST fanboys thought, don't you? Hope you're doing okay.
I once stated offhand on [theforce.net](http://theforce.net) that Luke's fantasy dream with Camie in Star Wars: the Last Jedi novelization (someone who had bullied him and called him Wormie) seemed out of character (out of character that his dream would be with someone like her instead of any other women he'd met who were kinder to him). The response was so vicious and crossed legal lines that I had to hire a law firm to get involved.
Over at theforce net Jedi Council Forums, I made an offhand comment on a thread that Luke's fantasy dream with Camie in the Last Jedi novelization (someone who had bullied him and called him Wormie) seemed out of character (out of character that his dream would be with someone like her instead of any other women he'd met who were kinder to him).
Immediately, a moderator (Sinrebirth) and another poster (Jedi Comedian) (both of whom were male) teamed up against me, said I was a sexist "nice guy" who hated women in publicly accessible forum posts (none of this is remotely true just to be clear) in regards to this post about Camie (a fictional character) and banned me on the spot. In shock, I messaged the moderator and said if my post about Camie (I didn't say anything bad about her at all, just that it seemed unrealistic she'd marry Luke even in a fantasy dream) was off they can delete it, but that his and the other poster's posts declaring me sexist (all publicly accessible) were false and defamatory and should be removed.
In reply, the moderator wrote a taunt "Lawyer up", which I then had to spend an inordinate amount of money to get a law firm to look over theforce net forums, only for my attorney to find that the defamatory content was removed (the moderator must have realized I was taking this very seriously by that point).
My lawyer then saw the mod's message to me that the ban was for 48 hours and we felt the matter was resolved. However, after 48 hours passed, the ban was still there and I asked the mod what happened. He said for daring to ask and not "apologizing" for sexism (about a fictional character keep in mind, and over comments about her history of calling Luke Wormie not her gender), the ban was extended to 96 hours. This was years ago, and it's clear my ban is permanent unless I "confess" to their accusation of sexism.
While combating sexism/racism etc. is important, outright accusing someone of being sexist/racist/etc. solely on opinions about fictional characters without evidence of real life wrongdoing is just outright defamation and can seriously damage someone's life.
This has to this day gotten me really shaken up, and I'm still afraid they'll try to come after me in real life and repeat their defamation. Just to be clear, I'm against all sexism and support equality of genders, transgenders, and everyone in every way.
Furthermore, some time later despite blocking who I'm pretty sure was Sinrebirth on facebook, he ended up somehow circumventing the facebook block and I had to get the Facebook group administrator involved, and tellingly he didn't deny it was Sinrebirth when it was put point blank but at least the group administrator agreed to ensure that he never directly interact on any of my posts again, which he had done (thus alerting me to the fact he got around the facebook block).
I once stated offhand on [theforce.net](http://theforce.net) that Luke's fantasy dream with Camie in Star Wars: the Last Jedi novelization (someone who had bullied him and called him Wormie) seemed out of character (out of character that his dream would be with someone like her instead of any other women he'd met who were kinder to him). The response was so vicious and crossed legal lines that I had to hire a law firm to get involved.
Over at theforce net Jedi Council Forums, I made an offhand comment on a thread that Luke's fantasy dream with Camie in the Last Jedi novelization (someone who had bullied him and called him Wormie) seemed out of character (out of character that his dream would be with someone like her instead of any other women he'd met who were kinder to him).
Immediately, a moderator (Sinrebirth) and another poster (Jedi Comedian) (both of whom were male) teamed up against me, said I was a sexist "nice guy" who hated women in publicly accessible forum posts (none of this is remotely true just to be clear) in regards to this post about Camie (a fictional character) and banned me on the spot. In shock, I messaged the moderator and said if my post about Camie (I didn't say anything bad about her at all, just that it seemed unrealistic she'd marry Luke even in a fantasy dream) was off they can delete it, but that his and the other poster's posts declaring me sexist (all publicly accessible) were false and defamatory and should be removed.
In reply, the moderator wrote a taunt "Lawyer up", which I then had to spend an inordinate amount of money to get a law firm to look over theforce net forums, only for my attorney to find that the defamatory content was removed (the moderator must have realized I was taking this very seriously by that point).
My lawyer then saw the mod's message to me that the ban was for 48 hours and we felt the matter was resolved. However, after 48 hours passed, the ban was still there and I asked the mod what happened. He said for daring to ask and not "apologizing" for sexism (about a fictional character keep in mind, and over comments about her history of calling Luke Wormie not her gender), the ban was extended to 96 hours. This was years ago, and it's clear my ban is permanent unless I "confess" to their accusation of sexism.
While combating sexism/racism etc. is important, outright accusing someone of being sexist/racist/etc. solely on opinions about fictional characters without evidence of real life wrongdoing is just outright defamation and can seriously damage someone's life.
This has to this day gotten me really shaken up, and I'm still afraid they'll try to come after me in real life and repeat their defamation. Just to be clear, I'm against all sexism and support equality of genders, transgenders, and everyone in every way.
Furthermore, some time later despite blocking who I'm pretty sure was Sinrebirth on facebook, he ended up somehow circumventing the facebook block and I had to get the Facebook group administrator involved, and tellingly he didn't deny it was Sinrebirth when it was put point blank but at least the group administrator agreed to ensure that he never directly interact on any of my posts again, which he had done (thus alerting me to the fact he got around the facebook block).
Wow. That sounds about right for that mod in particular. I the same mod he tried to ban me for pointing out that someone was lying about a comments section of one of Eck's videos about Heart of the Jedi when it released (they were trying the complain about how he was clearly courting toxic viewers based on the comments, only none of the comments were toxic). He wouldn't even let me make my point, he edited my reply *and* banned me, though I overturned it on appeal.
>Furthermore, some time later despite blocking who I'm pretty sure was Sinrebirth on facebook, he ended up somehow circumventing the facebook block and I had to get the Facebook group administrator involved, and tellingly he didn't deny it was Sinrebirth when it was put point blank but at least the group administrator agreed to ensure that he never directly interact on any of my posts again, which he had done (thus alerting me to the fact he got around the facebook block).
He harassed you on Facebook as well?
stuff like this is why I hesitated even posting on forums/subreddits like this (not that this one is bad at all, it’s been great).
You don’t know when someone will have a serious vendetta for an opinion you post.
Droids are a slave class with individually and sentience. That Gonk droid in Jabba's interrogation chamber screamed when its feet got burned. They gave them intelligence, free will, the ability to feel pain, and slapped a restraining bolt on them. Barbaric.
The TIE Defender was fun as an overpowered final reward in the video game after it had made you survive in regular TIEs for dozens of missions, but it never should have appeared as a 'real' starfighter.
It's silly. It's a fighter with the speed and maneuverability of an A-wing, the toughness of a bomber, shields and a hyper-drive. It's absurdly overpowered without any downsides, and so far beyond anything else the Empire operates. Whenever it shows up in a novel or comic it feels like, well, something out of a video game.
I'd compare the TIE Defender to the concept of the Imperial Storm Commandos; extremely expensive and rare, but good for missions where sheer numbers won't cut it. The Empire likes quantity over quality, but it has been shown to do things the other way on occasion
Maybe but I still don't buy the design of it. The A-Wing is all engines with a tiny cockpit that doesn't even have room for an astromech droid or strong laser cannons. How is the Defender close to that?
Furthermore, how did Sienar Fleet Systems even make the Defender when their entire design ethos and mission statement was to make cheap, mass-produced, reliable, efficient, fast fighters with zero extras (shields, hyperdrives, astromech droids, internal pressurized cockpits, etc) that swarm the enemy and win by attrition. Company culture matters as we can see with Boeing IRL.
If you told me another defense company made the Defender as an ultra high end premium performance product for the Empire, that would be a lot more believable.
From what I remember, the first appearance of the TIE Defender in Legends is in Isard's Revenge, where she found them at some secret base. It's possible that the Empire had Sienar Fleet Systems guys working with another design team off the books to produce something with the iconic look of the TIE fighters but heavily upgraded. The X-wings sport a hyperdrive, shields, four laser cannons, and proton torpedos in a fairly compact package. It's not a stretch to do all that plus a tractor beam in a larger TIE frame. The only thing is the speed; that is tricky to justify in such a large and well-equipped fighter; but it could be that the Empire could afford to throw money at upgraded engines, especially for a small production batch, while the rebellion had to make do with standard parts for their A-Wings.
I love the politics of Star Wars. It’s not always written to the same level as most well made political thrillers, and it baffles the mind why some characters are even involved in political story lines(looking at you senator Jar Jar), but when we get a series like Andor, or the governmental conspiracies from the KOTOR comics the setting just shines.
It goes against his entire arc in the New Jedi Order books.
To me it came off lazy, both in idea and execution.
Just curious why you think it was the right call?
>Just curious why you think it was the right call?
I've recently had a pretty extensive discussion on that exact topic with a fella who'd agree with you, so you can give it a quick look through if you want:
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/s/vvvnCxGM1f
But to sinthesise my reasoning, there is no state of mind or intention or situational context where actively pushing the limits of your power, ceasing to restrain your inner dark side and keep it at bay won't corrupt you. That's G-canon. Vergere wasn’t wrong in terms of how the Force fundamentally operates, that it's one unified power and only individuals devide it into lighy and dark, but at least to me the teachings she derives from this are risky to say the least. And to be clear, I'm talking about Traitor Vergere, not the later retcons about her, tho even later NJO books made her even more Potentium-like, which reinforces my position on the matter.
But I'd rather it was done much differently in LOTF.
I think Vergere herself never advocated for ceasing to restrain one's dark side, merely accepting one's responsability for it, it was Jacen who later distorted Vergere's teachings when he became obsessed with finding solutions to everything in the universe (as hinted in TUF, fully realized in DNT).
You could theoretically validate such interpretation when it comes to Traitor itself, tho her lessons are very ambiguous in language, making not just Jacen but Later NJO authors susceptible to possible misinterpretation. It's not just TUF, it's already, and even more so imo, Destiny's Way. Listen to what Walter John Williams had to say about it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/s/qaabNWKjp6
His understanding of Vergere's teachings makes them essentially Potentium/game Kyle Katarn beliefs, which goes clearly against Lucas' vision for how a Jedi should use the Force. Williams states it's in line with what George established, but we gotta remember only TPM was known for the writers at the time, besides the OT of course. Since the prequels it's clear there's no compromise between light and dark, the Force is one but how you use it is just as important as what you use it for.
From a Force lore POV, I absolutely agree with you that flirting with the Dark Side or being a "grey Jedi" will always lead to corruption (ugh, "grey Jedi" is perhaps the most misunderstood concept ever, right up there with "balance of the Force". Frankly implausible according to what George Lucas said about these topics). The Potentium school always seemed wrong to the basic ethos of Star Wars even if it was an interesting philosophical discussion.
From a characterization POV, I have to completely disagree. It ruined about 15 books of character work for Jacen if not more and Vergere got clumsily retconned into a Sith. Poor Tahiri became a plot device for much of LOTF, in theory it could have made sense but LOTF did not pull it off for me.
From a plotting POV, I also have to disagree. The whole Allana visions idea was interesting but just seemed like a lazy repeat of the Anakin Padme visions from the prequels. That's just a symptom of the greater LOTF problem of being a copy of earlier Star Wars arcs in general.
Want a Second Civil War between a Empire-like faction and a Rebel-like faction, despite the politics being weird as f***? Check!
Maybe LOTF could have pulled it off if they had better writers who did more pre-planning on where the series would go like the writers of NJO did back in 1999.
I absolutely agree that LOTF was executed very poorly, mostly when it comes to every character besides Jacen. Nevertheless, tbh I think keeping the narrative in line with what George established about the Force must be the absolute priority, even at the cost of damaging an epic series like the NJO. The story is supposed to be Star Wars and Star Wars has a certain premise that needs to be maintained. But imo had Jacen's fall been handled differently, it wouldn't have had to damage NJO.
I’m going to get downvoted and chewed up alive for this.
Honestly, Darman/Etain type relationships was more common than stated in the books and films. I reckon there are quite a few Jedi/clone offspring around. In the Legends universe, it would explain an Omega (from TBB, which I did enjoy) type character if the Kaminoans actually captured one of these offspring and were experimenting on it.
That's been a theory of mine as well; I often wonder how many younglings were the result of secret affairs of one night stands between a Jedi and a member of the local community. How many younglings actually had their biological parents watching them train right there at the Temple?
To my recollection there was at least one book that's canon where Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had an...interesting discussion with a Jedi that made it a point to explain that utilizing prostitutes didn't conflict with the rules of the Order.
And if we wanna go via Legends, well...pretty sure Quinlan Vos was willing to put his dick in anybody that could even potentially be considered an attractive female.
agree with the Venator wank being annoying. just as annoying as Revan, Starkiller and Vitiate wank.
semi-agree on Grievous, him never even killing a Jedi with lightsabers in TCW sucks ass (he only shot that one Mon Cal dude), as does constantly running away and getting beaten by Ahsoka twice. but his Republic comics and ROTS portrayal is fine with me. Labyrinth of Evil has the best Grievous.
disagree on Anakin/Vader. SWTOR's power wank was a mistake. especially creating a worse, edgier, and less interesting version of Reborn Palpy from Dark Empire.
now for mine:
1) Books 14-18 of NJO made me prefer Danni as a LI for Jacen. Tenel Ka Djo was almost a non-presence in the series and I haven't read the kid's books so she was "just" Teneniel's and Isolder's daughter to me. Generally, Denning pushing Jaina/Zekk and Jacen/Tenel Ka for Dark Nest, while freezing out Jag Fel and Danni was quite the whiplash from NJO.
2) New Class Modernization Project ships get too much hate bc of the shitty drawings from the Sourcebook.
3) Kyp Durron should have died in NJO, ideally saving a planet or system (bookending his arc from vaporizing Carida)
4) Kreia isn't as deep as the internet makes her out to be.
5) I don't hate Leia's characterization in BFC, the first half of Courtship is way worse.
I dislike the badassification of Vader.
I don't dislike him as a character, he is one of the most iconic villains of all time for a reason. But I don't at all like this perception of Vader as a supreme badass who can do anything he wants and is defined *by* badassery.
I also don't think it's especially supported by the movies. The OT doesn't really make a lot of sense if Vader can do stuff like that cringeworthy "fear and dead men" scene where he kills an entire army on his lonesome, or if he can pull a starship down with the Force and tear it apart. Look also at the comments of George Lucas about the duels in the prequels - he described how he wanted to depict the comparative golden age of the Jedi. The OT by contrast was green boys, old men and crippled cyborgs. You can tell the difference just by watching him move.
The way I see it, Vader is fundamentally a medium-large fish in a *tiny* pond, because the OT era is so barren in terms of active Force users by design. All of his peers are dead because of Order 66, or in hiding.
It's very fanboyish writing, isn't it?
I don't like this view of Vader where he exists so he can show up in a story, look cool, kill lots of people and then maybe brood a bit if you're aiming for poignancy. Might as well not use him at all if you're just going to do the same thing every time.
Personally I’ve always been more of a fan of the Later Jin.
“Brilliant Khan That Benefits All Nations” is a crazy title for a leader and they rolled with it.
A valid point. Vader was never intended to be a supreme badass.
By the time I really got into SW Vader was already a badass so it’s what I’m used to. He has his flaws and is a crippled man internally but I think his portrayal in the OT is what pushed writers to make him the way he is.
He’s tall, armored and has cool lines and despite how Lucas envisioned him, Vader dominates in ANH and ESB.
It was the perfect recipe for whoever got their hands on SW after the OT to go wild (I’m referring to the legends comics, Vader does some wild shit before canon).
Depends on the depiction, I suppose? I am a big fan of how *Dark Times* portrayed Vader as fumbling, confused and still growing into the role, for example.
And even EU stories like the one about the encounter on Kessel steer clear of the depths of fanservice you see plumbed in later material. There, Vader encounters a gaggle of no-name Jedi who were tricked into the conclave and didn't come prepared for an actual fight. While he does do damage, they fairly quickly manage to subdue Vader. He only gets out because they start bickering among themselves on whether they should kill Vader or not. In the end, the surviving Jedi have Vader dead to rights and he makes it out alive because Palpatine predicted Vader would mess up and thus sent a battalion of clones to help. The comic ends with Vader being chewed out for his carelessness. You get the idea that had the Jedi on Kessel actually been prepared or had a coordinated plan, or the clones had arrived a few moments later, Vader would have died because of said carelessness.
Either way, and I think this is key, you don't need over the top displays of power to make a character come across as intimidating. Vader in the OT actually barely gets any action, but not getting his hands dirty actually builds up his stature. Vader getting into a fight with Luke is scary because you only get hints of Vader's power. Vader is cool, calm, collected. He doesn't brawl or waste his time killing Rebel extras in extravagant ways. If he did, he would paradoxically be far less intimidating because you see a lot more of what he can do.
In *Star Wars*, less is often more, especially when it comes to the Force.
That’s fair but the Kessel enclave was Vader not too far after ROTS I think.
I believe Vader becomes more and more stronger because it’s understood that he strengthens his connection and trains/hunts constantly.
Fresh off the operating table for the first few years he’s weak an unfocused.
By TFU and beyond he’s far stronger.
People wanted more displays from Vader because I don’t think Lucas intended for the character to receive that big of a reaction.
I don’t mind his canon feats, as a company Disney needs to make profit and while they’ve botched many characters I don’t feel that they’ve ruined Vader really.
TFU is a whole different thing, and also stupid. It doesn't really work with anything else and exists in its own little universe. (I would argue *Dark Empire* is quite similar in that regard)
I would argue the Vader we see in *Purge* is far more consistent with the one in the movies. By contrast, if you place the Vader of the Obi-Wan show or the Marvel comics into the movies you get questions like "Why doesn't Vader rip the Falcon out of the sky in ESB and instead stands there like a lemon? Why doesn't he grab Luke with the Force, when Luke is a barely trained neophyte?"
Exaggerating the power Vader can bring to bear makes the movies less consistent, which I think is a bad thing.
TFU is fun and so is DE. You just have to not take things so seriously with continuity lining up. People worship the movies far too much and dislike when additional content doesn’t fall exactly into place. Not everything has to be crystal clear perfection.
There are bound to be minor contradictions and questions about why X character didn’t do Y at Z place etc.
Vader of the Obi Wan show is done fairly well. When he’s channeling his rage properly and immersed in the dark side he’s extremely dangerous and powerful. When he becomes conflicted and loses control he is bested by Kenobi.
Vader doesn’t show as much flashy feats later on because while he has the power to do so, he has more control of the force, and understands patience and planning, rather then out bursts.
While at his peak channeling the dark side he may have thumped Kenobi we see that he still became vulnerable and lost due to his own emotions. In ANH he learns and is more calculated and measured, but just as dangerous.
I’m actually with you on the *Venator* front. Never been a big fan of ships that are supposed to be dedicated to one specific field but end up being “do everything” ships.
Anakin was not slowly turning into Vader over the course of the Clone War. His turn happened because of the events we see in ROTS.
Anakin having a Jedi master and a Sith master is not a surprise given what we learn from the OT. When the PT added that he had a slave master too it now feels like the character was a slave all his life.
Here’s another one that’s been kinda touched on, and I don’t think will be controversial here but would be amping more casual fans: The majority of mandolorians were flat out evil. Not morally grey. Evil. Sure Din Jarin was more grey, and often a flat out good guy. But Bo-Katan? She participated in the cold blooded slaughter of an entire village only for fun because the village elders requested the return of the young women the mandolorians had taken as literal SLAVES! (A really dark plot point I didn’t really process at the time.) and she did it with a sadistic smile on her face. She was only seen as a bad guy ironically, because of her extreme prejudice against outsiders, causing her to rebel against maul. She never changed, she never stopped believing in the rule of the strong. She just wanted a mandolorian to be in charge. Neither she nor any of the death watch were ever good people they were just, at best, opposed to the sith / the empire.
The canon Mandalorians? Yeah, I can understand the argument that a majority of them are evil. That's kinda why I seriously missed the Legends interpretation of Mandalorians that came across as significantly more fragmented and could only really band together under a strong leader and under a time of crisis. Even something as simple as bringing back the New Mandalorians under Jaster Mereel rather than the route they took with the New Mandalorians with Dutchess Satine would've made their situation a bit more compelling, and potentially highlight how they often times were just making do with a fairly bad hand they were dealt (ie in a perpetual state of having to resort to hiring themselves out as mercenaries and bounty hunters to make a living/reputation because of how frequently they got put down by the Republic whenever they formed a united military front solely because every time they did they've go on an absolute rampage across the region).
I think Bioware made a mistake somewhere in The Old Republic by making the Sith Empire somewhat more morally grey. I think there are people who genuinely think The Sith as a whole are somehow not The Bad Guys of the Star Wars universe.
To play devil’s advocate, not everyone is going to be equally black-hearted in a galaxy-spanning organization. I enjoyed roleplaying as a morally-conflicted but ultimately pretty angry Sith who started off as a slave in that game.
In a world where we probably shouldn’t categorize people as evil based on their religious convictions or where they were born, there definitely could be some juice in a “good Sith” story IMO, it’s just not the version edgelords would want.
Im not sure I like some of what TCW did with the Mandalorians. There's a lot of aestheticly monarchist stuff introduced to them which a lot of other cultures in the galaxy already had.
I guess casual audiences may find it too confusing as TCW and recently Mandalorian have familiarised them to the idea that Mandalorians are human only.
Midichlorians are a good idea. The Force should have a scientific/physical aspect. It would bump up against my conception of the setting more if there *wasn’t* a blood test that was some kind of indicator of potential Force power.
Everyone is Force-sensitive. The door is open different amounts for different people, but if someone at the low end of sensitivity had spent their entire life meditating, even they could be levitating a pebble in their old age.
Jedi good, Jedi Order bad. Not like “as bad as the Sith” bad, but fundamentally morally questionable; training kids to be warriors is probably the worst element.
Not everyone is Force sensitive, most people can't even use the Force no matter how much they try, but everyone can understand the Force, as said by Uliq Qel-Droma, the Jedi order isn't bad and morally questionable and they don't train children to be warriors, Jedi are not warriors, they just happen to be forced to go to war on special cases
The universally-recognized symbol of the Jedi order is a weapon my man. They’re called Jedi *Knights* for a reason. They’re warriors. We see them training classrooms of children to use these weapons.
Female >!Revan!< and Male Exile make more sense than the official versions of those characters we ended up getting (not that there should be canon choices to the KotOR games in the first place).
With The Exile, it's because of the gender-locked content. Handmaidan provides more content for both story and gameplay, and her connections to Atris make her more important than Disciple. Yes, I know officially the Exile travelled with both, but that's not an option in-game.
For KotOR 1, >!Female Revan also has some bonus content, most notably a secret 3rd ending. Mostly, it comes down to if Revan is identical to almost every other Star Wars protagonist at the time, it makes the twist less effective, because the meaning of the twist boils down to "you're the main character". It'd be better to not canonize any version of the game, but Revan's persona is of a maverick, and the twist is all about the clash between the hero's and player's identities in a video game story, so it makes more sense to go with someone who doesn't fit the mould of designated Star Wars heroes as they were traditionally. Plus, the developers fought hard to get the Juhani romance into the game, so canonically erasing it I think disrespects their efforts.!<
It made sense to portray Anakin as a kid in TPM, as the idea was to show him as a flawed, traumatized young man that made all the wrong decisions because of his past in the next two episodes.
Luke and Mara are one of the best couples in the whole franchise.
The Jedi are good and are the best personification for the Light Side of the Force.
Hmm, can't say as I agree there. I've been a Star Wars fan since I was little, but I only actually discovered the EU when I was fifteen or so. Before that my love of the franchise was based entirely on the movies with the minor exceptions of one or two video games and the 03 Clone Wars.
My controversial opinion is that the prequels ruined Boba Fett. Having him be a clone is really stupid and takes away from his mysterious and near mythical presence within the SW universe.
Justice for Jaster Mereel
I liked Tierce, Flim, and Dysra as villains from the HoT duology a lot more than Thrawn. It was way more enjoyable seeing those 3 trying to work together, while making more mistakes than Thrawn but also thinking of plans on the fly when shits not going their way. Also their explanations for decisions being based on past experiences is more impressive than being an art nerd.
It honestly got a bit too ridiculous how much Thrawn could predict shit to the point it felt like a lot of lucky coincidences had to happen to stop him. Also got tired of how much characters go on and on about how brilliant he was.
Jedi should have had wives and girlfriends like they did in The Republic comics. George should not have ignored this when he made it the key narrative point for Anakin in E2/3.
Celibacy for Jedi makes the ordinary person who has dealt with the pain and rejection of failed relationships, but matured and moved on, more emotionally developed than the Jedi, which is counter intuitive.
Also, other writers labour this point too much and create other stories around it, needlessly.
The Darth Jar Jar Theory is valid, provides a small mountain's worth of supporting evidence, and explains almost every narrative inconsistency of Episodes II and III.
(quick edit - could we *NOT* downvote as a means of disagreeing? Even just in this thread?)
It is definitely valid but I’m glad it was never made into a reality.
Had Palpatine not been the true Sith master it would just undercut his presence in ROTJ, same with Vader. You have these two powerful Sith and you want me to be cool with the idea that JAR JAR is the real puppet master??
The idea of Plagueis having been the man in charge right up until the end of Episode 1 is great; it shows that Sidious wasn’t always in control and actually has to get himself into that position. He’s not invincible or infallible, but I like that he makes progress. Having him be under the thumb of Jar Jar is just a disservice to the character.
I do remember something about an unused scene where Sidious and Jar Jar discuss “causing havoc” or something and how Yoda was supposed to fight Jar Jar Jar instead of Dooku. Nonetheless having Sidious be the apprentice or even an equal partner with anyone is something that doesn’t make sense; it’s his nature to usurp and be the sole tyrant.
Also Jar Jar as a character is just a comedic clown, having him be the Sith would admittedly be creepy if they gave him a rotted zombie look, maybe. Maybe I’m so used to what we have (Sidious as the big bad) that I struggle to comprehend anyone else, or maybe Sheev is just so well written.
> Nonetheless having Sidious be the apprentice or even an equal partner with anyone is something that doesn’t make sense; it’s his nature to usurp and be the sole tyrant.
I disagree; this is why the *Darth Plagueis* novel is so compelling - we get to see pre-ruler Palpatine as he climbs the Republic/Sith ladders. Me personally, I would have found Palpatine's rise to power more interesting if he actually had to vie with somebody of roughly equal stature in order to win.
What we got instead was Palpatine *walking* into the Emperorship.
> Sheev is just so well written.
The character we get is fun, but flat. He has no arc. Even when you take into account all 6 films, he never undergoes any growth or change.
With Darth Jar Jar in place as an equal/uneasy partner, Palpatine finally would have gotten a proper foil, making his eventual ascension to leader of the Empire more of a payoff instead of a foregone conclusion.
Palpatine doesn’t need to be super complex to be great. Sometimes an arc isn’t needed. Arcs are overrated, severely, because half the time they’re done horribly.
Palpatine walking into the Emperor spot is exactly what makes it so good. Plagueis does most of the grand plan for him and he takes it all for himself. He’s the perfect selfish sociopath.
It’s the whole point of Sidious in my opinion. A selfish narcissistic person who was evil because his rich parentage wasn’t enough for him, and he just wants more and more. He’s the perfect embodiment of politicians and rich people in our own society. Those people, just like Sidious, are one dimensional villains but manage to inflict so much damage (just like Sidious) and end up ruling the world (at least Palpatine did for a time).
Anakin killing Jar Jar who might be some sort of a father figure on the order of Palpatine if things had gone that way would fit pretty well with how Lucas wanted things to rhyme.
Can you imagine how much more impactful the duel on *Invisible Hand* would've been had Anakin slain Jar Jar rather than Dooku? And not the stereotypical "Jar Jar" that has seeped into pop culture; but the "original vision" Jar Jar, built up over three films and at the epicenter of one of the most effective bait-and-switch heel-turns in cinema history.
What could have been. We were *that* close.
I'm referring to whatever George Lucas had in mind for the character pre-backlash, before anybody told him his idea was "bad."
In the released cut of TPM, there are still many residual traces of Jar Jar's deeper, darker origins. (It's possible there were additional hints/breadcrumbs sprinkled throughout the pre-edit. We have no way of knowing either way but it's a decent chance.)
So, for me, 'original vision' Jar Jar refers to a character with a bit beefier of a backstory in TPM, and revealed in either of the following prequel episodes as in-cahoots with Paplatine as another Sith Lord.
Yeah I doubt this whole post will get enough comments or views for downvotes to matter much but i wholeheartedly agree. I wanna see some interesting opinions not just popular ones!
I’ve seen some well made videos on the theory and when I saw it the first time it shocked me but it made sense. I just really wonder how Lucas intended for it to all make sense in the OT era.
For example:
>where is the true master (Jar Jar) in ep6?
>if we include legends in this then where is he when Sidious comes back in DE
>what are the origins of Sith Jar Jar? Is he the REAL Plagueis? (In Lucas’ original plan)
Just so many questions about the backstory and other stuff.
Jar Jar would have died in Episode II or III. We can look at the underlying structure of those films to establish a possible placement for such a death scene.
In my estimation, Lucas originally plotted for Jar Jar to die either at the end of the opening action scene in RotS (in place of Dooku, roughly) or during the Utapau sequence (in place of Grievous). Either death would have been based on the rest of those films' scripts, which of course I can only speculate about. If Jar Jar's true heritage was established as the twist in AotC, he dies for Dooku. If that twist happens in RotS, it's Grievous.
Lucas did everything he could to "diminish the effects" of Jar Jar's involvement in the prequels, following the disastrous early screenings of TPM. He couldn't change most of that film, but hasty substitutions, clever casting, and rushed rewrites pushed the Jar Jar *mostly* to the side.
Mara Jade is the best Star Wars character but I liked it better when she and Luke weren't married. They had such an unique and interesting relationship in Heir to the Empire.
Obi-Wan's pan and the reason he's so successful at negotiations is because when they fall through, he puts that rizz on and/or beds the military leaders. It produces results and he's good as long as he doesn't get attached.
Also, he and Asajj definitely banged.
Strong agree. Especially after the Mandalorian show made them so main stream popular they suffer from the problem of no one wanting their favorite characters to have any flaws. In legends mandolorians are strong but regularly lose to Jedi, and are flat out evil most of the time.
But that doesn't stop the pain.
(Don't dislike Rogue One though lol, I've got pretty used to having two canons. I just wish they'd continue Legends AS Legends. I feel like in the near enough future, they'll do a special one off comic that's Legends, but don't imagine much more.)
I never liked the notion of Anakin losing (and never reaching) his potential due to the injuries on Mustafar. It's like a far-fetched extension of what makes the midichlorians so controversial (I say that as someone who doesn't dislike them as much as many other do). Having that as an explanation makes the Force less mystical and, well - magical - and instead makes it more bound by the physical.
Also, for Anakin, I lowkey hate it how many sources and writers imply (if not outright state) that, but also how Luke (EU) got stronger and more powerful than he ever was, or so I understood it. What difference does the Chosen One make then? Sorry but Luke is not the one, he is his son but he' still supposed to be only half of his potential and strength.
My other controversial(?) take is that Anakin not only never lost potential but that he outright achieved it. We are meant to understand that (which is true, btw) his only problem ever was psychological and philosophical. He fell to the dark side and wasn't content with his existence, but he had the strength to defeat Sidious. Once Luke comes into his life, Anakin becomes content with who he is and uses that power to kill Sidious. And he didn't succeed only because he grabbed him while vulnerable. Remember, Palpatine started to force-light him uninterruptedly, and with great volume. But Anakin is the Chosen One, he had all the immense strength and raw power and accumulated mastery to counter that just long enough before Sidious could take him down.
Very very very strong agree. I never liked the idea of anakins “true potential” anyways. I like him being powerful but not like a potential omnipotent god. His true potential to me always was exactly what happened. He ultimately destroyed the sith and balanced the force (if we just take the movies into consideration) we don’t need him to be an actual deity levels of powerful.
Obi-Wan turned Anakin to the dark side. Anakin had gone back to normal after being left alone to reflect. Then, he did let go of Padme once Obi-Wan told him not. And at multiple times, Anakin does start to try to a conversation multiple times but Obi-Wan constantly go " Sith talk. I regret falling you Anakin " rather than entertain a conversation. And at the end of the fight, Obi-Wan takes Anakin's lightsaber, forcing Anakin to give up his Jedi life rather than let Anakin have this one hope. Obi-Wan went in there to make sure Anakin was fully turned to make it easier for him to kill him.
Am I saying Obi shouldn't have done these things? No, Anakin had committed acts beyond redemption. But I still think Obi didn't help Anakin and pushed him to the dark side.
I agree. I think Palpatine is the greatest Sith ever, but I run into people who say, well he didn't do something that Vitiate did, so that proves he's not as good.
I have this mixed feelings power wise because dark empire you can use to justify his power level as higher with the force storms but also, that’s a level of ridiculousness that is high even for a conversation that involves vitiate. I think vitiate was a stronger sith but that doesn’t make him a better charecter.
Yes and no. He was born powerful and ruthless enough that by I think 13 or 14 he conquered his home planet and killed the sith lord that ruled it without any formal training. He was also intelligent and powerful enough to devise a rituall and dominate the minds to some extent if around 8,000 Sith Lords and use them to strip the force energy form the entire planet and absorb it. Which made him immortal. He wasn’t actively channeling the sith or anything he made their power and the whole planets part of him. This wasn’t something like Nihilus draining life. This was every ounce of the force itself.
Fallout Tactics is my favorite Fallout game.
Bethesda's fallout games are dumbed down console shooters and are not as good a 1,2, and tactics.
Online/multi-player usually makes a game worse than it would be if it was offline/single player.
F2P is mobile gaming cancer that should have never been allowed to mess up pc gaming, along with seasons/battle passes.
What’s wrong with F2P? Tf2 is F2P and I’d agree that helped the game get more new players. Hell I started playing Tf2 because when I was a kid I randomly searched up ‘best free games’ and Tf2 was number 1 on that list. I’m sure many kids, now adults, had a similar experience, F2P makes games more accessible.
F2P brings with it the worst things in gaming. Battle passes, cash shops, mtx, online requirements, people thinking they're owed something for nothing.
If the central moral and thematic thrust of Star Wars is that anyone can be redeemed morally, a la Vader and Kylo Ren, even after being party to dictatorship and genocide, I’m not sure I actually agree with that.
As far as yours go I have no particular opinions about the Venator design, I agree about Anakin and Vader, and I don't hate the other versions of Grievous (though I do find the 03 version coolest)
If I had to pick then mine would be
* Jacen's fall was perfectly fine
* Anakin didn't deserve the rank of Master (more unpopular than you might think)
* Dark Empire I was excellent, and II is excellent so far as well
* The lightsaber choreography in Ashoka is really good, and I actually prefer it to some of the Prequel showings
I strongly agree on the point of anakin not deserving master and it shocks me how unpopular of an opinion that can be. It was always clear to me that the movies were not supose to make you think anakin deserved it. Because he didn’t. He wasn’t wise or experienced enough to achieve that rank. It’s the wisdom and devotion that earns you the rank of master not raw power. But so so so many people just love anakin and think because he was a realativley effective warrior and general that he must deserve master hood. His tantrum at not receiving it only proved that. Yes I know that part of the reason he was so mad was because he wanted access to the restricted teachings that might help him save padme. But he was only even a Jedi knight for about 3 years. People just want their favorite character to be right.
The Sith Empire aesthetics in SWTOR drive me absolutely insane. Like the ships, military uniforms, etc. They look too much like the Galactic Empire, which was a continuation of the Republic aesthetics. I much much much prefer the Sith Empire's general look in KOTOR.
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This. The art major schtick is so thin…tell me about human military psychology by analyzing a Mondrian, a Jackson Pollack and the Sistine Chapel.
Him not killing the tractor beam operator and instead telling him to find a way to beat what Luke had done was one of the few instances where I did like the character.
That the Jedi are actually VERY good for the galaxy and despite their flaws are still absolutely heroes…heroes can have flaws.
Part of it also undermines the Sith and Palpatine. If the Jedi act, they are a military force. If they don't, they are cowards who let billions die. The entire thing was a loss, no matter what side the Jedi took. They were doomed from the start because they tried to help the republic as much as they could and took on responsibilities that were simply too big for them because they had no big evil to slay anymore and wanted peace.
Here’s another unpopular opinion. This should not be an unpopular opinion.
It's not unpopular. It only has traction amidst the terminally-online edgelords.
It seems to be more popular Among Disney canon fans than legends fans.
I think the idea that the Jedi are bad sprang from the intentional fact that the Jedi aren’t universally and entirely good. As you said hero’s can and should have flaws. And many of the jedis practices are morally dubious or at least misguided. However some people have taken that premise and run with it to the extreme of “actually Jedi are evil” without actually knowing what they’re talking about.
But even that right. Like, I actually can’t think of anything that the Jedi order itself does that is morally wrong. I think their ideals and way of life can be adverse to the materialist and postmodernist ideals and ways of life of lots of modern people, and because of that the backlash against the Jedi arises.
- The old Jedi order made itself the bitch of the government (which often enough leads to enforcing compromises or results that are not entirely fair - or even worse, ask Jango or Grievous) - as seen from the outside the Order can seem like a religious cult that is not democratically voted, but has influence on politics, gets a lot of tax money (maintaining the temple, starships, etc) & can f.e. confiscate civilian ships "for the greater good", etc, while claiming they're ascetic & servants of the people - to some the Jedi order lost contact to the normal people & wonder about abstract concepts of the good & dark side in their ivory towers while they should help f.e. enslaved people - some people think the Jedi kidnap children. F.e. Lorn Pavan asked himself if letting Jax become a Jedi - which lead to Lorn being fired & started a downward spiral until he ended up in the dark criminal levels of Coruscant - was actually his choice or if he got mentally manipulated. This leads to the next point - how suspicious would you be about people you heard about that they can manipulate your thoughts? - in war you are sometimes pressured to do morally wrong things or you're forced to decide between your soldiers' lifes, the civilians lifes, etc. So as somebody who claims he's a defender of the good with a high moral standard you are pushed into a decision where to put your moral barrier on the "The end justifies the means"-scale - using slave soldiers aka the clone army is another question for said scale Some points here are more about how the Jedi were viewed in-universe, but these subjective views can also influence the view of the reader which might explain some irl people claiming the Jedi are bad
I have never seen this opinion before and I am terminally online. The only time I've heard of it is when people on here complain about people having this opinion ad nauseam.
Oh boy is it everywhere. I've had debates with Jedi-Antis on Youtube, Reddit, even on Pinterest. Hell my sisters' *fiancé* is a Jedi-Anti, though I doubt he's aware of the term.
This is not an unpopular opinion. Everyone on this sub keeps saying it.
Well it’s an unpopular opinion among a VERY large group of fans. I mean have you watched a generation tech video?
Ah! Alan
Yes exactly.
Probably not that niche or unpopular, but Thrawn is still a villain, no matter what has been done to make him cooler or rehabilitate him. His end goal is still a totalitarian state run by his brand of military dictatorship. Maybe he's not needlessly repressive or tyrannical, or even willing to uphold all the tenets of the New Order, and even seems to have something resembling a sense of honor. He will still do whatever he deems necessary to subjugate the galaxy and crush any kind of dissent under the Imperial bootheel.
I don't know if Zahn ever explicitly talked about this, but Thrawn always reminded me of Reinhard Heydrich.
I'd compare Thrawn to certain elements of the Heer and Old Prussian conservatives; certainly not as bad as the NSDAP (The New Order) adherents, but still seeking an autocratic state and German (Imperial) domination over Europe (the Galaxy) Heydrich would be closer to COMPNOR or the ISB taking control
The Old Prussians were pagans vibing in the Baltic lol. You’re just thinking of regular Prussians.
My nerdy opinion: the DC15 rifle (the long rifle of the clone army) is stupid as a mainline assault rifle of the infantry while the DC15A or s model and later the e11 carbines exist. The long rifle is 1,3m long with the maximun range of 10km when fitted on a tripod, weighs 4,4 kg and has precision stock, long range telescopic sight and underbarrel rangefinder. All of this gizmo technical superiority means the rifle is worse than both the carbines used. Absolutely nobody expects firefights to happen on kilometer distances on regular basis. The lenght and weight means the user is basically toting around a super heavy polearm from middle ages instead of an assault rifle. All the while wookiepedia even states the rifle is often reloaded at the barracks since the 500shot gas magazine is so tricky to swap in field conditions. Enter the carbines. Both have folding stocks, midrange optics, the ability to mount attachments and have much more compact dimensions. Yes, neither have the power of the dc15 nor the accuracy nor the range or the quality of shooting ergonomics like precision stock. In every case of pure technical sophistication they loose horribly. Which means that as infantry rifles they beat the dc15 99% of the time. The compactness, lack of complicated tech and suitable shooting characteristics (are accurate and lethal to 300-500m ranges, have controllable full auto modes and are sturdy and simple in desing) mean every non-specialized soldier is more than likely to prefer them. I, just like every finnish male, served in the finnish army as a conscript. We have a very rudimentary combat training compared to say us army troops who are professional. We carried a variant of the ak rifle (rk62). No, it is not as accurate as a finely tuned sniper. No, the ergonomics are not even close to good hunting rifles and no, the 7,62mm bullet is not going to hit targets at 1km. But the rifle can do 300m shots, is cheap to build and even us conscripts learn to mantain and use it with limited training resources. Sure, the professionals of finnish army like spec ops snipers have Trg sniper rifles, but they are not the cannon fodder grunts. Many times in media and in fandom the dc15 rifle is seen as the best gun around, even in universe people make fun of the lack of capability of the carbines. Yet there is reason why irl soldiers no longer use ww1 style bolt action guns, instead assault rifles with objectively all around "worse" performance. The reality is, your average conscript (that is, like 90% of soldiers) does not have the skills to fully utilize a high performace rifle. What is neede is a simple tool, not a surgical masterpiece. Long write,sorry xD
Everything you’re saying is fair and correct but I feel you’re not including the fact that Clones weren’t meant to be cannon fodder like imperial troopers. They were an outnumbered army but highly trained, even the grunts of it. Especially in the early war they were going to have to take out far more droids before they would be shot down or incapacitated. The DC15 allows for this far more due to, as you say, its range; accuracy; and general usage capabilities. I’m sure the equivalent of a Navy Seal wouldn’t mind carrying ~5kg of a gun if it meant they didn’t have to be as close and could be deadlier from afar when facing an outnumbering army of destroyer droids. I imagine only Commandos wouldn’t use either gun since they actually do require more speed, considering their armour weight already, and are actually trained to essentially be in CCQ for majority of their deployments.
Well said, i didnt properly take into accord that clones are all basically spec op level pros. The rifle indeed suits them, yet still i think overall the reputation of the e11 and dc15s as being worse than the dc15 is still misplaced. Tho, i do realize this is purely my opinion- if someone said i got to pick a rifle ftom the 3 for deployment in star wars and i did not magically gain the skill of a clone,i would pick either of the short guns over the dc15 any day :D
I actually think you are still absolutely right that the long DC15 rifle is actually the worst choice in-universe despite the clones being spec ops trained. The earlier clones have more regiments that are independently minded with higher initiative and creativity as well as specialized training such as the ARC troopers. This was important in ensuring that the clones don't lose the Clone Wars right away due to superior numbers of the droid armors at the start of the war. Later on, these special regiments are phased out for a more standardized and loyal army, one that is better suited to killing their Jedi commanders (and friends in many cases). That reduction in initiative combined with less stringent training AND the military advantages of shorter lighter weapons is why in Revenge of the Sith, you see all the clones with much shorter carbine-type rifles that are much easier to handle, lighter and more compact, and have a much higher rate of fire.
I once stated offhand on [theforce.net](http://theforce.net) that Luke's fantasy dream with Camie in the Last Jedi novelization (someone who had bullied him and called him Wormie) seemed out of character (out of character that his dream would be with someone like her instead of any other women he'd met who were kinder to him). The response was so vicious and crossed legal lines that I had to hire a law firm to get involved. I guess in retrospect the above was my most controversial Star Wars opinion for some reason. The whole incident still has me shaken up.
Hold up, we got rid of Mara Jade so that Luke could have fantasies about *Camie*? And this is what so many are proclaiming to be the best that Star Wars has ever been? Gotta watch out for those ST fanboys thought, don't you? Hope you're doing okay.
A law firm? That’s crazy!
I get if you can’t mention certain details but I’m mad curious now
I once stated offhand on [theforce.net](http://theforce.net) that Luke's fantasy dream with Camie in Star Wars: the Last Jedi novelization (someone who had bullied him and called him Wormie) seemed out of character (out of character that his dream would be with someone like her instead of any other women he'd met who were kinder to him). The response was so vicious and crossed legal lines that I had to hire a law firm to get involved. Over at theforce net Jedi Council Forums, I made an offhand comment on a thread that Luke's fantasy dream with Camie in the Last Jedi novelization (someone who had bullied him and called him Wormie) seemed out of character (out of character that his dream would be with someone like her instead of any other women he'd met who were kinder to him). Immediately, a moderator (Sinrebirth) and another poster (Jedi Comedian) (both of whom were male) teamed up against me, said I was a sexist "nice guy" who hated women in publicly accessible forum posts (none of this is remotely true just to be clear) in regards to this post about Camie (a fictional character) and banned me on the spot. In shock, I messaged the moderator and said if my post about Camie (I didn't say anything bad about her at all, just that it seemed unrealistic she'd marry Luke even in a fantasy dream) was off they can delete it, but that his and the other poster's posts declaring me sexist (all publicly accessible) were false and defamatory and should be removed. In reply, the moderator wrote a taunt "Lawyer up", which I then had to spend an inordinate amount of money to get a law firm to look over theforce net forums, only for my attorney to find that the defamatory content was removed (the moderator must have realized I was taking this very seriously by that point). My lawyer then saw the mod's message to me that the ban was for 48 hours and we felt the matter was resolved. However, after 48 hours passed, the ban was still there and I asked the mod what happened. He said for daring to ask and not "apologizing" for sexism (about a fictional character keep in mind, and over comments about her history of calling Luke Wormie not her gender), the ban was extended to 96 hours. This was years ago, and it's clear my ban is permanent unless I "confess" to their accusation of sexism. While combating sexism/racism etc. is important, outright accusing someone of being sexist/racist/etc. solely on opinions about fictional characters without evidence of real life wrongdoing is just outright defamation and can seriously damage someone's life. This has to this day gotten me really shaken up, and I'm still afraid they'll try to come after me in real life and repeat their defamation. Just to be clear, I'm against all sexism and support equality of genders, transgenders, and everyone in every way. Furthermore, some time later despite blocking who I'm pretty sure was Sinrebirth on facebook, he ended up somehow circumventing the facebook block and I had to get the Facebook group administrator involved, and tellingly he didn't deny it was Sinrebirth when it was put point blank but at least the group administrator agreed to ensure that he never directly interact on any of my posts again, which he had done (thus alerting me to the fact he got around the facebook block).
That's fucked up ngl
If you can't go into details can you at least link to the thread?
I once stated offhand on [theforce.net](http://theforce.net) that Luke's fantasy dream with Camie in Star Wars: the Last Jedi novelization (someone who had bullied him and called him Wormie) seemed out of character (out of character that his dream would be with someone like her instead of any other women he'd met who were kinder to him). The response was so vicious and crossed legal lines that I had to hire a law firm to get involved. Over at theforce net Jedi Council Forums, I made an offhand comment on a thread that Luke's fantasy dream with Camie in the Last Jedi novelization (someone who had bullied him and called him Wormie) seemed out of character (out of character that his dream would be with someone like her instead of any other women he'd met who were kinder to him). Immediately, a moderator (Sinrebirth) and another poster (Jedi Comedian) (both of whom were male) teamed up against me, said I was a sexist "nice guy" who hated women in publicly accessible forum posts (none of this is remotely true just to be clear) in regards to this post about Camie (a fictional character) and banned me on the spot. In shock, I messaged the moderator and said if my post about Camie (I didn't say anything bad about her at all, just that it seemed unrealistic she'd marry Luke even in a fantasy dream) was off they can delete it, but that his and the other poster's posts declaring me sexist (all publicly accessible) were false and defamatory and should be removed. In reply, the moderator wrote a taunt "Lawyer up", which I then had to spend an inordinate amount of money to get a law firm to look over theforce net forums, only for my attorney to find that the defamatory content was removed (the moderator must have realized I was taking this very seriously by that point). My lawyer then saw the mod's message to me that the ban was for 48 hours and we felt the matter was resolved. However, after 48 hours passed, the ban was still there and I asked the mod what happened. He said for daring to ask and not "apologizing" for sexism (about a fictional character keep in mind, and over comments about her history of calling Luke Wormie not her gender), the ban was extended to 96 hours. This was years ago, and it's clear my ban is permanent unless I "confess" to their accusation of sexism. While combating sexism/racism etc. is important, outright accusing someone of being sexist/racist/etc. solely on opinions about fictional characters without evidence of real life wrongdoing is just outright defamation and can seriously damage someone's life. This has to this day gotten me really shaken up, and I'm still afraid they'll try to come after me in real life and repeat their defamation. Just to be clear, I'm against all sexism and support equality of genders, transgenders, and everyone in every way. Furthermore, some time later despite blocking who I'm pretty sure was Sinrebirth on facebook, he ended up somehow circumventing the facebook block and I had to get the Facebook group administrator involved, and tellingly he didn't deny it was Sinrebirth when it was put point blank but at least the group administrator agreed to ensure that he never directly interact on any of my posts again, which he had done (thus alerting me to the fact he got around the facebook block).
Wow. That sounds about right for that mod in particular. I the same mod he tried to ban me for pointing out that someone was lying about a comments section of one of Eck's videos about Heart of the Jedi when it released (they were trying the complain about how he was clearly courting toxic viewers based on the comments, only none of the comments were toxic). He wouldn't even let me make my point, he edited my reply *and* banned me, though I overturned it on appeal. >Furthermore, some time later despite blocking who I'm pretty sure was Sinrebirth on facebook, he ended up somehow circumventing the facebook block and I had to get the Facebook group administrator involved, and tellingly he didn't deny it was Sinrebirth when it was put point blank but at least the group administrator agreed to ensure that he never directly interact on any of my posts again, which he had done (thus alerting me to the fact he got around the facebook block). He harassed you on Facebook as well?
I'll DM you on your question.
stuff like this is why I hesitated even posting on forums/subreddits like this (not that this one is bad at all, it’s been great). You don’t know when someone will have a serious vendetta for an opinion you post.
what💀
Droids are a slave class with individually and sentience. That Gonk droid in Jabba's interrogation chamber screamed when its feet got burned. They gave them intelligence, free will, the ability to feel pain, and slapped a restraining bolt on them. Barbaric.
The TIE Defender was fun as an overpowered final reward in the video game after it had made you survive in regular TIEs for dozens of missions, but it never should have appeared as a 'real' starfighter.
Why is that?
It's silly. It's a fighter with the speed and maneuverability of an A-wing, the toughness of a bomber, shields and a hyper-drive. It's absurdly overpowered without any downsides, and so far beyond anything else the Empire operates. Whenever it shows up in a novel or comic it feels like, well, something out of a video game.
The downside is that it's way more expensive than most other fighters fielded and is extreme overkill in most situations
I'd compare the TIE Defender to the concept of the Imperial Storm Commandos; extremely expensive and rare, but good for missions where sheer numbers won't cut it. The Empire likes quantity over quality, but it has been shown to do things the other way on occasion
Maybe but I still don't buy the design of it. The A-Wing is all engines with a tiny cockpit that doesn't even have room for an astromech droid or strong laser cannons. How is the Defender close to that? Furthermore, how did Sienar Fleet Systems even make the Defender when their entire design ethos and mission statement was to make cheap, mass-produced, reliable, efficient, fast fighters with zero extras (shields, hyperdrives, astromech droids, internal pressurized cockpits, etc) that swarm the enemy and win by attrition. Company culture matters as we can see with Boeing IRL. If you told me another defense company made the Defender as an ultra high end premium performance product for the Empire, that would be a lot more believable.
From what I remember, the first appearance of the TIE Defender in Legends is in Isard's Revenge, where she found them at some secret base. It's possible that the Empire had Sienar Fleet Systems guys working with another design team off the books to produce something with the iconic look of the TIE fighters but heavily upgraded. The X-wings sport a hyperdrive, shields, four laser cannons, and proton torpedos in a fairly compact package. It's not a stretch to do all that plus a tractor beam in a larger TIE frame. The only thing is the speed; that is tricky to justify in such a large and well-equipped fighter; but it could be that the Empire could afford to throw money at upgraded engines, especially for a small production batch, while the rebellion had to make do with standard parts for their A-Wings.
Not entirely true, the Missile Boat ate TIE Defenders for breakfast. That thing easily took down Star Destroyers as well too.
I love the politics of Star Wars. It’s not always written to the same level as most well made political thrillers, and it baffles the mind why some characters are even involved in political story lines(looking at you senator Jar Jar), but when we get a series like Andor, or the governmental conspiracies from the KOTOR comics the setting just shines.
I both love Traitor and think Jacen's fall to the dark side (the concept, not execution) was the right call. I'll be dead in 3..2..1...
It goes against his entire arc in the New Jedi Order books. To me it came off lazy, both in idea and execution. Just curious why you think it was the right call?
>Just curious why you think it was the right call? I've recently had a pretty extensive discussion on that exact topic with a fella who'd agree with you, so you can give it a quick look through if you want: https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/s/vvvnCxGM1f But to sinthesise my reasoning, there is no state of mind or intention or situational context where actively pushing the limits of your power, ceasing to restrain your inner dark side and keep it at bay won't corrupt you. That's G-canon. Vergere wasn’t wrong in terms of how the Force fundamentally operates, that it's one unified power and only individuals devide it into lighy and dark, but at least to me the teachings she derives from this are risky to say the least. And to be clear, I'm talking about Traitor Vergere, not the later retcons about her, tho even later NJO books made her even more Potentium-like, which reinforces my position on the matter. But I'd rather it was done much differently in LOTF.
I think Vergere herself never advocated for ceasing to restrain one's dark side, merely accepting one's responsability for it, it was Jacen who later distorted Vergere's teachings when he became obsessed with finding solutions to everything in the universe (as hinted in TUF, fully realized in DNT).
You could theoretically validate such interpretation when it comes to Traitor itself, tho her lessons are very ambiguous in language, making not just Jacen but Later NJO authors susceptible to possible misinterpretation. It's not just TUF, it's already, and even more so imo, Destiny's Way. Listen to what Walter John Williams had to say about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/s/qaabNWKjp6 His understanding of Vergere's teachings makes them essentially Potentium/game Kyle Katarn beliefs, which goes clearly against Lucas' vision for how a Jedi should use the Force. Williams states it's in line with what George established, but we gotta remember only TPM was known for the writers at the time, besides the OT of course. Since the prequels it's clear there's no compromise between light and dark, the Force is one but how you use it is just as important as what you use it for.
From a Force lore POV, I absolutely agree with you that flirting with the Dark Side or being a "grey Jedi" will always lead to corruption (ugh, "grey Jedi" is perhaps the most misunderstood concept ever, right up there with "balance of the Force". Frankly implausible according to what George Lucas said about these topics). The Potentium school always seemed wrong to the basic ethos of Star Wars even if it was an interesting philosophical discussion. From a characterization POV, I have to completely disagree. It ruined about 15 books of character work for Jacen if not more and Vergere got clumsily retconned into a Sith. Poor Tahiri became a plot device for much of LOTF, in theory it could have made sense but LOTF did not pull it off for me. From a plotting POV, I also have to disagree. The whole Allana visions idea was interesting but just seemed like a lazy repeat of the Anakin Padme visions from the prequels. That's just a symptom of the greater LOTF problem of being a copy of earlier Star Wars arcs in general. Want a Second Civil War between a Empire-like faction and a Rebel-like faction, despite the politics being weird as f***? Check! Maybe LOTF could have pulled it off if they had better writers who did more pre-planning on where the series would go like the writers of NJO did back in 1999.
I absolutely agree that LOTF was executed very poorly, mostly when it comes to every character besides Jacen. Nevertheless, tbh I think keeping the narrative in line with what George established about the Force must be the absolute priority, even at the cost of damaging an epic series like the NJO. The story is supposed to be Star Wars and Star Wars has a certain premise that needs to be maintained. But imo had Jacen's fall been handled differently, it wouldn't have had to damage NJO.
I’m going to get downvoted and chewed up alive for this. Honestly, Darman/Etain type relationships was more common than stated in the books and films. I reckon there are quite a few Jedi/clone offspring around. In the Legends universe, it would explain an Omega (from TBB, which I did enjoy) type character if the Kaminoans actually captured one of these offspring and were experimenting on it.
That's been a theory of mine as well; I often wonder how many younglings were the result of secret affairs of one night stands between a Jedi and a member of the local community. How many younglings actually had their biological parents watching them train right there at the Temple?
Or between Jedi. I know a few of the Jedi had FWB type relationships. I’m sure more than a few of these relationships produced children.
To my recollection there was at least one book that's canon where Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had an...interesting discussion with a Jedi that made it a point to explain that utilizing prostitutes didn't conflict with the rules of the Order. And if we wanna go via Legends, well...pretty sure Quinlan Vos was willing to put his dick in anybody that could even potentially be considered an attractive female.
Actually a plot point in one of the new canon books
agree with the Venator wank being annoying. just as annoying as Revan, Starkiller and Vitiate wank. semi-agree on Grievous, him never even killing a Jedi with lightsabers in TCW sucks ass (he only shot that one Mon Cal dude), as does constantly running away and getting beaten by Ahsoka twice. but his Republic comics and ROTS portrayal is fine with me. Labyrinth of Evil has the best Grievous. disagree on Anakin/Vader. SWTOR's power wank was a mistake. especially creating a worse, edgier, and less interesting version of Reborn Palpy from Dark Empire. now for mine: 1) Books 14-18 of NJO made me prefer Danni as a LI for Jacen. Tenel Ka Djo was almost a non-presence in the series and I haven't read the kid's books so she was "just" Teneniel's and Isolder's daughter to me. Generally, Denning pushing Jaina/Zekk and Jacen/Tenel Ka for Dark Nest, while freezing out Jag Fel and Danni was quite the whiplash from NJO. 2) New Class Modernization Project ships get too much hate bc of the shitty drawings from the Sourcebook. 3) Kyp Durron should have died in NJO, ideally saving a planet or system (bookending his arc from vaporizing Carida) 4) Kreia isn't as deep as the internet makes her out to be. 5) I don't hate Leia's characterization in BFC, the first half of Courtship is way worse.
I dislike the badassification of Vader. I don't dislike him as a character, he is one of the most iconic villains of all time for a reason. But I don't at all like this perception of Vader as a supreme badass who can do anything he wants and is defined *by* badassery. I also don't think it's especially supported by the movies. The OT doesn't really make a lot of sense if Vader can do stuff like that cringeworthy "fear and dead men" scene where he kills an entire army on his lonesome, or if he can pull a starship down with the Force and tear it apart. Look also at the comments of George Lucas about the duels in the prequels - he described how he wanted to depict the comparative golden age of the Jedi. The OT by contrast was green boys, old men and crippled cyborgs. You can tell the difference just by watching him move. The way I see it, Vader is fundamentally a medium-large fish in a *tiny* pond, because the OT era is so barren in terms of active Force users by design. All of his peers are dead because of Order 66, or in hiding.
Fear and dead men is SO BAD, thank you, felt like I was going insane watching so many people hype that ass writing
It's very fanboyish writing, isn't it? I don't like this view of Vader where he exists so he can show up in a story, look cool, kill lots of people and then maybe brood a bit if you're aiming for poignancy. Might as well not use him at all if you're just going to do the same thing every time.
Not only that but it is a very poor attempt at capturing Vader's courtly way of speaking. Felt very tryhard
I love your pfp. Nice to see a fan of the Wanyan Clan.
Thanks. I love his hat, and his face speaks to me. Also Great Jin is Best Jin
Personally I’ve always been more of a fan of the Later Jin. “Brilliant Khan That Benefits All Nations” is a crazy title for a leader and they rolled with it.
Whatever else, we can agree they are all superior to Western Jin.
Deffo
A valid point. Vader was never intended to be a supreme badass. By the time I really got into SW Vader was already a badass so it’s what I’m used to. He has his flaws and is a crippled man internally but I think his portrayal in the OT is what pushed writers to make him the way he is. He’s tall, armored and has cool lines and despite how Lucas envisioned him, Vader dominates in ANH and ESB. It was the perfect recipe for whoever got their hands on SW after the OT to go wild (I’m referring to the legends comics, Vader does some wild shit before canon).
Depends on the depiction, I suppose? I am a big fan of how *Dark Times* portrayed Vader as fumbling, confused and still growing into the role, for example. And even EU stories like the one about the encounter on Kessel steer clear of the depths of fanservice you see plumbed in later material. There, Vader encounters a gaggle of no-name Jedi who were tricked into the conclave and didn't come prepared for an actual fight. While he does do damage, they fairly quickly manage to subdue Vader. He only gets out because they start bickering among themselves on whether they should kill Vader or not. In the end, the surviving Jedi have Vader dead to rights and he makes it out alive because Palpatine predicted Vader would mess up and thus sent a battalion of clones to help. The comic ends with Vader being chewed out for his carelessness. You get the idea that had the Jedi on Kessel actually been prepared or had a coordinated plan, or the clones had arrived a few moments later, Vader would have died because of said carelessness. Either way, and I think this is key, you don't need over the top displays of power to make a character come across as intimidating. Vader in the OT actually barely gets any action, but not getting his hands dirty actually builds up his stature. Vader getting into a fight with Luke is scary because you only get hints of Vader's power. Vader is cool, calm, collected. He doesn't brawl or waste his time killing Rebel extras in extravagant ways. If he did, he would paradoxically be far less intimidating because you see a lot more of what he can do. In *Star Wars*, less is often more, especially when it comes to the Force.
That’s fair but the Kessel enclave was Vader not too far after ROTS I think. I believe Vader becomes more and more stronger because it’s understood that he strengthens his connection and trains/hunts constantly. Fresh off the operating table for the first few years he’s weak an unfocused. By TFU and beyond he’s far stronger. People wanted more displays from Vader because I don’t think Lucas intended for the character to receive that big of a reaction. I don’t mind his canon feats, as a company Disney needs to make profit and while they’ve botched many characters I don’t feel that they’ve ruined Vader really.
TFU is a whole different thing, and also stupid. It doesn't really work with anything else and exists in its own little universe. (I would argue *Dark Empire* is quite similar in that regard) I would argue the Vader we see in *Purge* is far more consistent with the one in the movies. By contrast, if you place the Vader of the Obi-Wan show or the Marvel comics into the movies you get questions like "Why doesn't Vader rip the Falcon out of the sky in ESB and instead stands there like a lemon? Why doesn't he grab Luke with the Force, when Luke is a barely trained neophyte?" Exaggerating the power Vader can bring to bear makes the movies less consistent, which I think is a bad thing.
TFU is fun and so is DE. You just have to not take things so seriously with continuity lining up. People worship the movies far too much and dislike when additional content doesn’t fall exactly into place. Not everything has to be crystal clear perfection. There are bound to be minor contradictions and questions about why X character didn’t do Y at Z place etc. Vader of the Obi Wan show is done fairly well. When he’s channeling his rage properly and immersed in the dark side he’s extremely dangerous and powerful. When he becomes conflicted and loses control he is bested by Kenobi. Vader doesn’t show as much flashy feats later on because while he has the power to do so, he has more control of the force, and understands patience and planning, rather then out bursts. While at his peak channeling the dark side he may have thumped Kenobi we see that he still became vulnerable and lost due to his own emotions. In ANH he learns and is more calculated and measured, but just as dangerous.
I’m actually with you on the *Venator* front. Never been a big fan of ships that are supposed to be dedicated to one specific field but end up being “do everything” ships.
Anakin was not slowly turning into Vader over the course of the Clone War. His turn happened because of the events we see in ROTS. Anakin having a Jedi master and a Sith master is not a surprise given what we learn from the OT. When the PT added that he had a slave master too it now feels like the character was a slave all his life.
Here’s another one that’s been kinda touched on, and I don’t think will be controversial here but would be amping more casual fans: The majority of mandolorians were flat out evil. Not morally grey. Evil. Sure Din Jarin was more grey, and often a flat out good guy. But Bo-Katan? She participated in the cold blooded slaughter of an entire village only for fun because the village elders requested the return of the young women the mandolorians had taken as literal SLAVES! (A really dark plot point I didn’t really process at the time.) and she did it with a sadistic smile on her face. She was only seen as a bad guy ironically, because of her extreme prejudice against outsiders, causing her to rebel against maul. She never changed, she never stopped believing in the rule of the strong. She just wanted a mandolorian to be in charge. Neither she nor any of the death watch were ever good people they were just, at best, opposed to the sith / the empire.
The canon Mandalorians? Yeah, I can understand the argument that a majority of them are evil. That's kinda why I seriously missed the Legends interpretation of Mandalorians that came across as significantly more fragmented and could only really band together under a strong leader and under a time of crisis. Even something as simple as bringing back the New Mandalorians under Jaster Mereel rather than the route they took with the New Mandalorians with Dutchess Satine would've made their situation a bit more compelling, and potentially highlight how they often times were just making do with a fairly bad hand they were dealt (ie in a perpetual state of having to resort to hiring themselves out as mercenaries and bounty hunters to make a living/reputation because of how frequently they got put down by the Republic whenever they formed a united military front solely because every time they did they've go on an absolute rampage across the region).
I think Bioware made a mistake somewhere in The Old Republic by making the Sith Empire somewhat more morally grey. I think there are people who genuinely think The Sith as a whole are somehow not The Bad Guys of the Star Wars universe.
To play devil’s advocate, not everyone is going to be equally black-hearted in a galaxy-spanning organization. I enjoyed roleplaying as a morally-conflicted but ultimately pretty angry Sith who started off as a slave in that game. In a world where we probably shouldn’t categorize people as evil based on their religious convictions or where they were born, there definitely could be some juice in a “good Sith” story IMO, it’s just not the version edgelords would want.
Im not sure I like some of what TCW did with the Mandalorians. There's a lot of aestheticly monarchist stuff introduced to them which a lot of other cultures in the galaxy already had.
Plus they are all human. Mandalorian is a culture yet all I see are human warriors not alien ones. I don’t like it. I want to see more alien mandos.
Me too. Makes sense that some of them would be alien. And it would be a fun opportunity for new armor designs.
I guess casual audiences may find it too confusing as TCW and recently Mandalorian have familiarised them to the idea that Mandalorians are human only.
Midichlorians are a good idea. The Force should have a scientific/physical aspect. It would bump up against my conception of the setting more if there *wasn’t* a blood test that was some kind of indicator of potential Force power. Everyone is Force-sensitive. The door is open different amounts for different people, but if someone at the low end of sensitivity had spent their entire life meditating, even they could be levitating a pebble in their old age. Jedi good, Jedi Order bad. Not like “as bad as the Sith” bad, but fundamentally morally questionable; training kids to be warriors is probably the worst element.
Not everyone is Force sensitive, most people can't even use the Force no matter how much they try, but everyone can understand the Force, as said by Uliq Qel-Droma, the Jedi order isn't bad and morally questionable and they don't train children to be warriors, Jedi are not warriors, they just happen to be forced to go to war on special cases
The universally-recognized symbol of the Jedi order is a weapon my man. They’re called Jedi *Knights* for a reason. They’re warriors. We see them training classrooms of children to use these weapons.
Female >!Revan!< and Male Exile make more sense than the official versions of those characters we ended up getting (not that there should be canon choices to the KotOR games in the first place).
I am intrigued by this, I’ve always seen Revan as male and Exile as female, can I ask why you think this way?
With The Exile, it's because of the gender-locked content. Handmaidan provides more content for both story and gameplay, and her connections to Atris make her more important than Disciple. Yes, I know officially the Exile travelled with both, but that's not an option in-game. For KotOR 1, >!Female Revan also has some bonus content, most notably a secret 3rd ending. Mostly, it comes down to if Revan is identical to almost every other Star Wars protagonist at the time, it makes the twist less effective, because the meaning of the twist boils down to "you're the main character". It'd be better to not canonize any version of the game, but Revan's persona is of a maverick, and the twist is all about the clash between the hero's and player's identities in a video game story, so it makes more sense to go with someone who doesn't fit the mould of designated Star Wars heroes as they were traditionally. Plus, the developers fought hard to get the Juhani romance into the game, so canonically erasing it I think disrespects their efforts.!<
Star Destroyer shield generators are too vulnerable.
It made sense to portray Anakin as a kid in TPM, as the idea was to show him as a flawed, traumatized young man that made all the wrong decisions because of his past in the next two episodes. Luke and Mara are one of the best couples in the whole franchise. The Jedi are good and are the best personification for the Light Side of the Force.
Star Wars would not be very interesting if it were just the movies and there was no expanded universe
Hmm, can't say as I agree there. I've been a Star Wars fan since I was little, but I only actually discovered the EU when I was fifteen or so. Before that my love of the franchise was based entirely on the movies with the minor exceptions of one or two video games and the 03 Clone Wars.
My controversial opinion is that the prequels ruined Boba Fett. Having him be a clone is really stupid and takes away from his mysterious and near mythical presence within the SW universe. Justice for Jaster Mereel
Yes, weird straight-edge Boba Fett from Last One Standing was best Boba Fett.
Agreed.
Agreed, it's another unnecessary connection that just makes the universe seem smaller.
Yes, the obsession with connecting everything is ridiculous. For example, C-3PO being built by Anakin. Unnecessary.
I liked Tierce, Flim, and Dysra as villains from the HoT duology a lot more than Thrawn. It was way more enjoyable seeing those 3 trying to work together, while making more mistakes than Thrawn but also thinking of plans on the fly when shits not going their way. Also their explanations for decisions being based on past experiences is more impressive than being an art nerd. It honestly got a bit too ridiculous how much Thrawn could predict shit to the point it felt like a lot of lucky coincidences had to happen to stop him. Also got tired of how much characters go on and on about how brilliant he was.
>!Revan!< is cooler as a woman for the Samus-style reveal.
The crystal star was a good book for the way it showed us how disturbances in the force could affect a force sensitive.
Jedi should have had wives and girlfriends like they did in The Republic comics. George should not have ignored this when he made it the key narrative point for Anakin in E2/3. Celibacy for Jedi makes the ordinary person who has dealt with the pain and rejection of failed relationships, but matured and moved on, more emotionally developed than the Jedi, which is counter intuitive. Also, other writers labour this point too much and create other stories around it, needlessly.
The Darth Jar Jar Theory is valid, provides a small mountain's worth of supporting evidence, and explains almost every narrative inconsistency of Episodes II and III. (quick edit - could we *NOT* downvote as a means of disagreeing? Even just in this thread?)
It is definitely valid but I’m glad it was never made into a reality. Had Palpatine not been the true Sith master it would just undercut his presence in ROTJ, same with Vader. You have these two powerful Sith and you want me to be cool with the idea that JAR JAR is the real puppet master?? The idea of Plagueis having been the man in charge right up until the end of Episode 1 is great; it shows that Sidious wasn’t always in control and actually has to get himself into that position. He’s not invincible or infallible, but I like that he makes progress. Having him be under the thumb of Jar Jar is just a disservice to the character. I do remember something about an unused scene where Sidious and Jar Jar discuss “causing havoc” or something and how Yoda was supposed to fight Jar Jar Jar instead of Dooku. Nonetheless having Sidious be the apprentice or even an equal partner with anyone is something that doesn’t make sense; it’s his nature to usurp and be the sole tyrant. Also Jar Jar as a character is just a comedic clown, having him be the Sith would admittedly be creepy if they gave him a rotted zombie look, maybe. Maybe I’m so used to what we have (Sidious as the big bad) that I struggle to comprehend anyone else, or maybe Sheev is just so well written.
> Nonetheless having Sidious be the apprentice or even an equal partner with anyone is something that doesn’t make sense; it’s his nature to usurp and be the sole tyrant. I disagree; this is why the *Darth Plagueis* novel is so compelling - we get to see pre-ruler Palpatine as he climbs the Republic/Sith ladders. Me personally, I would have found Palpatine's rise to power more interesting if he actually had to vie with somebody of roughly equal stature in order to win. What we got instead was Palpatine *walking* into the Emperorship. > Sheev is just so well written. The character we get is fun, but flat. He has no arc. Even when you take into account all 6 films, he never undergoes any growth or change. With Darth Jar Jar in place as an equal/uneasy partner, Palpatine finally would have gotten a proper foil, making his eventual ascension to leader of the Empire more of a payoff instead of a foregone conclusion.
Palpatine doesn’t need to be super complex to be great. Sometimes an arc isn’t needed. Arcs are overrated, severely, because half the time they’re done horribly. Palpatine walking into the Emperor spot is exactly what makes it so good. Plagueis does most of the grand plan for him and he takes it all for himself. He’s the perfect selfish sociopath. It’s the whole point of Sidious in my opinion. A selfish narcissistic person who was evil because his rich parentage wasn’t enough for him, and he just wants more and more. He’s the perfect embodiment of politicians and rich people in our own society. Those people, just like Sidious, are one dimensional villains but manage to inflict so much damage (just like Sidious) and end up ruling the world (at least Palpatine did for a time).
Anakin killing Jar Jar who might be some sort of a father figure on the order of Palpatine if things had gone that way would fit pretty well with how Lucas wanted things to rhyme.
Can you imagine how much more impactful the duel on *Invisible Hand* would've been had Anakin slain Jar Jar rather than Dooku? And not the stereotypical "Jar Jar" that has seeped into pop culture; but the "original vision" Jar Jar, built up over three films and at the epicenter of one of the most effective bait-and-switch heel-turns in cinema history. What could have been. We were *that* close.
What was 'original vision' Jar Jar? I've heard the 'Darth Jar Jar' memes, but never heard anything about this.
I'm referring to whatever George Lucas had in mind for the character pre-backlash, before anybody told him his idea was "bad." In the released cut of TPM, there are still many residual traces of Jar Jar's deeper, darker origins. (It's possible there were additional hints/breadcrumbs sprinkled throughout the pre-edit. We have no way of knowing either way but it's a decent chance.) So, for me, 'original vision' Jar Jar refers to a character with a bit beefier of a backstory in TPM, and revealed in either of the following prequel episodes as in-cahoots with Paplatine as another Sith Lord.
Yeah I doubt this whole post will get enough comments or views for downvotes to matter much but i wholeheartedly agree. I wanna see some interesting opinions not just popular ones!
I’ve seen some well made videos on the theory and when I saw it the first time it shocked me but it made sense. I just really wonder how Lucas intended for it to all make sense in the OT era. For example: >where is the true master (Jar Jar) in ep6? >if we include legends in this then where is he when Sidious comes back in DE >what are the origins of Sith Jar Jar? Is he the REAL Plagueis? (In Lucas’ original plan) Just so many questions about the backstory and other stuff.
Jar Jar would have died in Episode II or III. We can look at the underlying structure of those films to establish a possible placement for such a death scene. In my estimation, Lucas originally plotted for Jar Jar to die either at the end of the opening action scene in RotS (in place of Dooku, roughly) or during the Utapau sequence (in place of Grievous). Either death would have been based on the rest of those films' scripts, which of course I can only speculate about. If Jar Jar's true heritage was established as the twist in AotC, he dies for Dooku. If that twist happens in RotS, it's Grievous. Lucas did everything he could to "diminish the effects" of Jar Jar's involvement in the prequels, following the disastrous early screenings of TPM. He couldn't change most of that film, but hasty substitutions, clever casting, and rushed rewrites pushed the Jar Jar *mostly* to the side.
Mara Jade is the best Star Wars character but I liked it better when she and Luke weren't married. They had such an unique and interesting relationship in Heir to the Empire.
Obi-Wan's pan and the reason he's so successful at negotiations is because when they fall through, he puts that rizz on and/or beds the military leaders. It produces results and he's good as long as he doesn't get attached. Also, he and Asajj definitely banged.
Mandalorians have always been overrated
Strong agree. Especially after the Mandalorian show made them so main stream popular they suffer from the problem of no one wanting their favorite characters to have any flaws. In legends mandolorians are strong but regularly lose to Jedi, and are flat out evil most of the time.
Which is hilarious. A warrior culture that only wins against people who can't fight back.
Yes finally. They’ve always rubbed me the wrong way.
I dislike Rpgue One because it retcons Kyle Katarn and he's my favorite SW character.
Katarn was already non-cannon when rouge one came out I think.
But that doesn't stop the pain. (Don't dislike Rogue One though lol, I've got pretty used to having two canons. I just wish they'd continue Legends AS Legends. I feel like in the near enough future, they'll do a special one off comic that's Legends, but don't imagine much more.)
I never liked the notion of Anakin losing (and never reaching) his potential due to the injuries on Mustafar. It's like a far-fetched extension of what makes the midichlorians so controversial (I say that as someone who doesn't dislike them as much as many other do). Having that as an explanation makes the Force less mystical and, well - magical - and instead makes it more bound by the physical. Also, for Anakin, I lowkey hate it how many sources and writers imply (if not outright state) that, but also how Luke (EU) got stronger and more powerful than he ever was, or so I understood it. What difference does the Chosen One make then? Sorry but Luke is not the one, he is his son but he' still supposed to be only half of his potential and strength. My other controversial(?) take is that Anakin not only never lost potential but that he outright achieved it. We are meant to understand that (which is true, btw) his only problem ever was psychological and philosophical. He fell to the dark side and wasn't content with his existence, but he had the strength to defeat Sidious. Once Luke comes into his life, Anakin becomes content with who he is and uses that power to kill Sidious. And he didn't succeed only because he grabbed him while vulnerable. Remember, Palpatine started to force-light him uninterruptedly, and with great volume. But Anakin is the Chosen One, he had all the immense strength and raw power and accumulated mastery to counter that just long enough before Sidious could take him down.
Very very very strong agree. I never liked the idea of anakins “true potential” anyways. I like him being powerful but not like a potential omnipotent god. His true potential to me always was exactly what happened. He ultimately destroyed the sith and balanced the force (if we just take the movies into consideration) we don’t need him to be an actual deity levels of powerful.
Obi-Wan turned Anakin to the dark side. Anakin had gone back to normal after being left alone to reflect. Then, he did let go of Padme once Obi-Wan told him not. And at multiple times, Anakin does start to try to a conversation multiple times but Obi-Wan constantly go " Sith talk. I regret falling you Anakin " rather than entertain a conversation. And at the end of the fight, Obi-Wan takes Anakin's lightsaber, forcing Anakin to give up his Jedi life rather than let Anakin have this one hope. Obi-Wan went in there to make sure Anakin was fully turned to make it easier for him to kill him. Am I saying Obi shouldn't have done these things? No, Anakin had committed acts beyond redemption. But I still think Obi didn't help Anakin and pushed him to the dark side.
Nah. Fear ultimately drew him to the darkside, and he made the choices he made based on the fear of losing anyone else he loved.
I hate "feats". Just because you don't see someone do it, doesn't mean they can't.
Valid. But it’s even more unfair to just assume someone can do something without any proof.
I agree. I think Palpatine is the greatest Sith ever, but I run into people who say, well he didn't do something that Vitiate did, so that proves he's not as good.
I have this mixed feelings power wise because dark empire you can use to justify his power level as higher with the force storms but also, that’s a level of ridiculousness that is high even for a conversation that involves vitiate. I think vitiate was a stronger sith but that doesn’t make him a better charecter.
I don't know much about Vitiate, but didn't most of his feats come from channeling a bunch of other Sith and Jedi?
Yes and no. He was born powerful and ruthless enough that by I think 13 or 14 he conquered his home planet and killed the sith lord that ruled it without any formal training. He was also intelligent and powerful enough to devise a rituall and dominate the minds to some extent if around 8,000 Sith Lords and use them to strip the force energy form the entire planet and absorb it. Which made him immortal. He wasn’t actively channeling the sith or anything he made their power and the whole planets part of him. This wasn’t something like Nihilus draining life. This was every ounce of the force itself.
That's pretty cool.
Fallout Tactics is my favorite Fallout game. Bethesda's fallout games are dumbed down console shooters and are not as good a 1,2, and tactics. Online/multi-player usually makes a game worse than it would be if it was offline/single player. F2P is mobile gaming cancer that should have never been allowed to mess up pc gaming, along with seasons/battle passes.
What’s wrong with F2P? Tf2 is F2P and I’d agree that helped the game get more new players. Hell I started playing Tf2 because when I was a kid I randomly searched up ‘best free games’ and Tf2 was number 1 on that list. I’m sure many kids, now adults, had a similar experience, F2P makes games more accessible.
F2P brings with it the worst things in gaming. Battle passes, cash shops, mtx, online requirements, people thinking they're owed something for nothing.
The Force Unleashed 3 should be made to give us a conclusion to the stories of those characters.
The jedi individualy are usualy heroes but many are too quick to give the institution of the Jedi Order a pass.
If the central moral and thematic thrust of Star Wars is that anyone can be redeemed morally, a la Vader and Kylo Ren, even after being party to dictatorship and genocide, I’m not sure I actually agree with that.
As far as yours go I have no particular opinions about the Venator design, I agree about Anakin and Vader, and I don't hate the other versions of Grievous (though I do find the 03 version coolest) If I had to pick then mine would be * Jacen's fall was perfectly fine * Anakin didn't deserve the rank of Master (more unpopular than you might think) * Dark Empire I was excellent, and II is excellent so far as well * The lightsaber choreography in Ashoka is really good, and I actually prefer it to some of the Prequel showings
I strongly agree on the point of anakin not deserving master and it shocks me how unpopular of an opinion that can be. It was always clear to me that the movies were not supose to make you think anakin deserved it. Because he didn’t. He wasn’t wise or experienced enough to achieve that rank. It’s the wisdom and devotion that earns you the rank of master not raw power. But so so so many people just love anakin and think because he was a realativley effective warrior and general that he must deserve master hood. His tantrum at not receiving it only proved that. Yes I know that part of the reason he was so mad was because he wanted access to the restricted teachings that might help him save padme. But he was only even a Jedi knight for about 3 years. People just want their favorite character to be right.
Right? I must have debated this point at least three times this month
The Sith Empire aesthetics in SWTOR drive me absolutely insane. Like the ships, military uniforms, etc. They look too much like the Galactic Empire, which was a continuation of the Republic aesthetics. I much much much prefer the Sith Empire's general look in KOTOR.
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Thrawn is (at least in his original trilogy) a terrible character
This. The art major schtick is so thin…tell me about human military psychology by analyzing a Mondrian, a Jackson Pollack and the Sistine Chapel. Him not killing the tractor beam operator and instead telling him to find a way to beat what Luke had done was one of the few instances where I did like the character.
Why?
Almost all the ship designs in Star Wars suck