Yet you also have to take into consideration that in his Orbalisk armour Bane is susceptible to Force Lightning, which Dooku is proficient in. It would be a good fight anyway and I’m not really sure who would win.
No we're not, but if bane encountered Dooku he probably wouldn't outright kill him. He'd definitely consider replacing his own apprentice with Dooku and would end up testing him, quite possibly giving Dooku the chance of take him out.
I'd still give it to Bane, but chances of them teaming up are higher than chances of them killing one another.
>If its Bane during his final battle its debatable.
Dooku can't summon dark side tentacles. And since I just finished the Bane trilogy for the first time yesterday I'd argue that Dooku might not be as strong in sith sorcery as Zannah and Bane to actually survive an essence transfer in the case of Bane using it as the last option.
>Dooku can't summon dark side tentacles.
Yeah Dooku doesn't really do many sith sorcery related things. But he has other strengths that Zannah didn't have like being a much better swordsman and being better at more mundane force usage (telekinesis, lightining).
>to actually survive an essence transfer in the case of Bane using it as the last option.
To be fair, you don't need to know sith sorcery to resist essence transfer. Its more of a test of willpower. Granted Dooku hasn't really demonstrated many feats of willpower. But then again, I doubt Bane would use it anyway. He only did it during his fight with Zannah because he thought she was a fraud.
I would argue that Dooku’s demonstrated mastery of telekinesis (as shown by his training of Savage) is a result of his immense capacity to exert his will on the world around him.
Darth Zannah demonstrated more powerful telekinesis. Just think about what she did to Lucia. I can't remember seeing or reading about Dooku doing something similar. The Clone Wars is still canon and he needed the help of the Jedi when Hondo captured him.
>Yeah Dooku doesn't really do many sith sorcery related things. But he has other strengths that Zannah didn't have like being a much better swordsman and being better at more mundane force usage (telekinesis, lightining).
But that was how Zannah won. When it comes down to swordsmanship or mundane force usage I'd bet my money on Bane. Don't get me wrong: Dooku is strong, exceedingly strong even. But Bane is stronger. Physical strenght is also a key point in swordsmanship, even with lightsabers. That's why the 2m juggernaut Bane taught the rather petite Zannah Soresu while he himself prefered more aggresive styles. And Bane knew all of the 7 styles. Also think about how Githany was suprised how powerfull his force lightning was from the get go when she taught him about it behind the masters on the academy on Korriban. When I compare Bane's force lightning to Dookus... well, I really like Dooku but I don't see him as a winner here.
>To be fair, you don't need to know sith sorcery to resist essence transfer. Its more of a test of willpower. Granted Dooku hasn't really demonstrated many feats of willpower. But then again, I doubt Bane would use it anyway. He only did it during his fight with Zannah because he thought she was a fraud.
Haha actually that's why I wasn't so sure Bane didn't win here until I read the clarifications of the author. Because Bane was probably one of the most headstrong people in the galaxy far far away. Still it's sith sorcery and that was never his speciality and neither Dooku's. Also I disagree with you about him using it because he thought she was a fraud. In my opinion he used it on her because at that point she literally materialized the dark force and attacked him in a way that made even him afraid of the 'dark side'/void. He knew at the point that he lost and it was his last try... and he failed poorly.
>But Bane is stronger. Physical strenght is also a key point in swordsmanship, even with lightsabers.
Is he though? Bane may be inherently stronger, but with the force Dooku could absolutely compete. Grievous is much stronger that Bane physically (Grievous can hit hard enough to dent a starship hull, Smash Durge through solid stone and smash a Neumodians skull to pieces). Dooku can easily disarm Grievous without difficulty. Obi Wan is also physically stronger than Bane too (he can bend Grievous' duranium arm with zero effort) and Dooku could physically overpower him too.
As for saber dwelling ability, I'll copy and paste the argument I made to someone else:
"Bane has two majorly impressive duel showings in his belt. He beat the sith blade master of his academy which is very impressive but not beyond someone like Dooku. He also fought the 3 meditation amped masters but the orbelisks protected him throughout that fight. Also, only one of those jedi masters (Raskta) was actually any good as well. Johun's whole shtick was that he was a pretty weak and inexperienced jedi and Farfalla was just getting in the way.
To put this into perspective, Grievous on his own was shown to be capable of fighting 4+ jedi on multiple occasions (CW 2003, Labyrinth of Evil). That included jedi like Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, K'Krukh. And when they tried setting two against him (Obsession) he beat them in literal moments (and one was Adi Gallia). The same Grievous is little more than fodder to Dooku. Now, Obi-Wan managed to beat Grievous with low difficulty in saber combat. Yeah, the whole fight was longer but Obi-Wan dominated the saber portion. It's also stated on many occasions that Obi-Wan is quite likely the best Soresu practioner of all time. And Dooku was fighting him and Anakin at the same time even as late as ep 3. He was at a disadvantage until he separated them, but the fact that he can take on someone out of Grievous league and another person even better than that (Anakin) and not be instantly butchered would make him far better than Bane as a duelist."
>When I compare Bane's force lightning to Dookus... well, I really like Dooku but I don't see him as a winner here.
When I mentioned force lightining I was mainly referring to how Dooku had it while Zannah didn't. I do agree though, Bane is much better with lightning.
>He knew at the point that he lost and it was his last try... and he failed poorly.
Yeah thats a viable interpretation too.
May I put in some points of discussion to this:
- Bane is familiar with Dooku's combat form & lightsaber shape, so Dooku loses the element of surprise in those categories
- Bane prefers the same combat form as Anakin, Djem So
- Grievous was always told to have the intimidation factor & element of surprise on his side - if not, he should retreat. & The Jedi on Hypory were not only surprised & intimidated, but probably also both physically & mentally exhausted by the disastrous previous battle (though the fight still is a testament to Grievous immense abilities), & never underestimate the disadvantage of Grievous not being force-sensitive
Yes but remember Zannah is also a horrible duelist (at least compared to Bane) and is completely incapable of putting on any offensive pressure via her dueling skills, and she’s barely serviceable on defense as all she can do is bide for time
Meanwhile Count Dooku is literally the best duelist of his era and is able to *punch up* against stronger force wielders like Yoda.
He can only punch up dueling wise because he’s the only one who ever bothered to study sword on sword combat
Also you claim Zannah is barely serviceable on defense and can only bide time. That is literally what Bane taught her to do.
“You lack the physical strength required for the powerful attacking strikes of Djem So or the other aggressive forms. You must rely on quickness, cunning and, most of all, patience to best your enemies.”
She’s able to defend INDEFINITELY with her Soresu capabilities, and it became such an instinctual ability she could interweave force techniques with it. And of course swap to offense when the opponent tires or gets frustrated
No he’s not. Makashi isn’t the only form that teaches lightsaber combat and there are many other Jedi who mastered
And even then Shaak-Ti and Ki-Adi Mundi both mastered Makashi too, Shaak-Ti’s level of skill was even compared *to* Count Dooku
Mace Windu, Yoda, and Sidious are confirmed to have mastered every lightsaber form.
And if Dooku was the only person who studied how to duel then how the hell did Obi-Wan or Anakin ever pose any challenge to him (and ultimately kill him) if they weren’t good duelists?
Also just because Darth Zannah was taught that by Bane doesn’t mean it isn’t a weakness. She is still completely unable to pose a serious challenge offensively to anyone unless they drop their guard or become exhausted.
She had to rely on the force almost entirely for offense because she had no other option.
Dooku doesn’t have that weakness. He is perfectly serviceable on offense and defense and is an expert at dissecting his opponents guard and sneaking hits in. Even if they’re a master of Soresu like Kenobi. And Kenobi was *definitely* more skilled with Soresu than Zannah was.
Meanwhile Kenobi was not familiar with Dooku's lightsaber shape & the use of Makashi was quite rare at that point of time (though some learned it, probably pro forma)
Kenobi was not the only one who wasn’t familiar with Dooku’s lightsaber design. It was in fact an Ancient Sith design that he used which is why no Jedi used it (in fact in old Legends content he wielded a normal straight lightsaber in concept art of a Jedi Dooku). Meaning no Jedi, even Dooku before he turned would be familiar with it.
I am not familiar with how Canon addresses this but Tales Of The Jedi retconned him to having a curved hilted lightsaber.
However this is only true for Episode 2 Kenobi. He would go on to fight Assajj Ventress, General Grevious, and Dooku himself various times throughout the war in both continuities and perform extremely well. Same goes for Anakin, Plo-Koon, and Kit Fisto, Shaak-Ti, Ki-Adi Mundi and all the other Jedi who fought either Assajj, General Grevious, or Dooku.
And just because use of *Makashi* was rare doesn’t mean the Jedi weren’t familiar with saber to saber combat. Makashi was not the only discipline that taught that, there were multiple other forms that did as well.
>Yes but remember Zannah is also a horrible duelist (at least compared to Bane) and is completely incapable of putting on any offensive pressure via her dueling skills, and she’s barely serviceable on defense as all she can do is bide for time
Hmm, from where did you get that Zannah is a horrible duelist? Surely not something from the books. I mean, yeah, she is not as good as Bane but she is close enough to hold up to him for quite long. And Bane at their final duel was considered by Zannah to be faster than she could ever imagined, and incorporating as well in his usual fight styles a different, new style to surprise her
Even as a 19-20 years old apprentice at her first real life or death duel she was doing well enough vs 2 opponents in that duel on Tython, and she sparred the life of one of her opponent several times just because he style was interfering awkwardly with the better style of the other opponent and she was able to play one against the other.
She was also casually dominating in lightsaber duel Set Harth, a very competent dark Jedi that she intended at that time to make him her apprentice. As much as she was disarming him at some point, mockingly kicking him in the back or straight up kicking him in the face, and could have killed him straight up if she had wished to.
She is quite an excellent duelist with lot of skill, stamina and agility, and she have skills that very few, if any one else, have, regarding Sith sorcery, she is by the end probably the best Sith sorcerer (well, sorceress) in SW universe.
>Meanwhile Count Dooku is literally the best duelist of his era and is able to punch up against stronger force wielders like Yoda.
Bane fought against the best of the best of his era, which is a time when the light saber duels where at the peak during a war that seen thousands of Sith and Jedi dueling eachother on the battlefields, for years.
Bane fought Raskta Lsu, the Jedi weapon master or battlemaster who was said she had killed in direct combat as many Sith as the thought bomb (a thousand or so, iirc) so she was an extremely good duelist, like extremely skilled, with feats way beyond anyone from Dooku era, surpassing by far even the likes of Mace Windu
Bane also fought Kasim, the Sith weapon master who was considered by the book narration as the best swordsman in the galaxy (if not ever), so superior to his Jedi counterpart mentioned above. That was Bane well before his prime. Sure, he won at the end by using his superior force power and telekinesis but he dominated the lightsaber duel up to the end, when Kasim switched the tide and started winning by using two swords and an unfamiliar style for Bane
Bane fought 1 vs 2 and vs 3 against Raskta Lsu, Farfalla (who was the Jedi grandmaster at that time, iirc) and his former student, all empowered by another Jedi master battle meditation.
Force wise, Bane is so above Dooku that that alone make the fight really unbalanced. Bane force lightnings are so powerful that can burn to a crisp orbalisks, who otherwise are invulnerable to light saber strikes. Thats beyond what Dooku (or even Sidious I say) can do with their force lightning.
Iirc Plaguies himself said that by his time Bane was considered a god like figure with legendary feats, and if we look at feats alone that is quite true
Dude. Bane pre or post Orbalisk is a bad mother.
I love Dookus character, but his ability to conjure force lightning is a joke next to Bane. Bane may have lost some lightsaber ability post obelisk, which he is aware of and may have made him MORE dangerous.
Dookus real ability was in lightsaber combat which could make him formidable against Bane, but ultimately I think Bane takes it, and if I'm honest, by a longshot.
No way a pretentious rich boy wins over a Sith lord raised working the mines and forged by war who single handedly destroyed the existing Sith and defeating sword masters. I don't think Dooku has the experience or power level.
Just my 2 cents.
>love Dookus character, but his ability to conjure force lightning is a joke next to Bane.
Yeah I agree.
>Dookus real ability was in lightsaber combat which could make him formidable against Bane, but ultimately I think Bane takes it, and if I'm honest, by a longshot.
I would disagree. Bane has two majorly impressive duel showings in his belt. He beat the sith blade master of his academy which is very impressive but not beyond someone like Dooku. He also fought the 3 meditation amped masters but the orbelisks protected him throughout that fight. Also, only one of those jedi masters (Raskta) was actually any good as well. Johun's whole shtick was that he was a pretty weak and inexperienced jedi and Farfalla was just getting in the way.
To put this into perspective, Grievous on his own was shown to be capable of fighting 4+ jedi on multiple occasions (CW 2003, Labyrinth of Evil). That included jedi like Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, K'Krukh. And when they tried setting two against him (Obsession) he beat them in literal moments (and one was Adi Gallia). The same Grievous is little more than fodder to Dooku. Now, Obi-Wan managed to beat Grievous with low difficulty in saber combat. Yeah, the whole fight was longer but Obi-Wan dominated the saber portion. It's also stated on many occasions that Obi-Wan is quite likely the best Soresu practioner of all time. And Dooku was fighting him and Anakin at the same time even as late as ep 3. He was at a disadvantage until he separated them, but the fact that he can take on someone out of Grievous' league and another person even better than that (Anakin) and not be instantly butchered would make him far better than Bane as a duelist.
>No way a pretentious rich boy wins over a Sith lord raised working the mines and forged by war who single handedly destroyed the existing Sith and defeating sword masters. I don't think Dooku has the experience or power level.
Appearances can be deceiving. Palpatine was also a pretentious, albeit psychotic noble from Naboo before Plagueis found him. And the training he endured was brutal. Plagueis had Palpatine climbing mountains during planetary storms that no ordinary human could survive without envirosuits. We don't see much of Palpatine's training of Dooku but its safe to say it must have been very brutal as well.
I would also say that being forged by war isn't everything. And Bane technically didn't fight in the war as a sith (he was an ordinary soldier and the war ended very shortly after he graduated from the Korriban academy). Look at Exar Kun. Kun is revered as one of the greatest saber duelists of all time and he was born/trained in a time of absolute peace. The people of Bane's era and the era before that were worshipping men like Kun.
You make some very good points, sir.
I do think I would second guess judging Dooku by his upbringing based on what we know about Sidious' training.
I don't think Greivous is a good measuring stick only because Dooku trained him, and he isn't force sensitive, so he's at a serious disadvantage.
The fights with Obi-Wan, I would say, are a good argument to his overall abilities. Boy, he handed him his ass twice, lol!
That being said, I still think Dooku wouldn't quite take it. I go back to the times they existed and were trained.
However, there's also a solid argument that Dooku, kind of being a part of Banes line (if it's working as designed) WOULD or SHOULD be able to take him and I think Bane would be very disappointed if a Sith a thousand years down the line, wasn't far more powerful than himself.
Bro it’s a nerdy subject. This literally applies to everyone in this comment section if not the entire subreddit
If you’re gonna insult someone at least be original about it
He also beat Sith lightsaber masters at their prime, during a galactic conflict which pushed both Jedi and Sith to be at their best in terms of lightsaber proficiency
Bane would win because he's a better fighter and has been fighting through some pretty serious wars and conflicts since he enlisted with the Gloom Walkers at like 20 years old. He's just trained to be better attuned to fighting, and his force powers were learned from both his love of ancient knowledge and intelligence, which I believe surpassed Dooku. The only reason Dooku was special was due to who his master was and the timing of his fall with Palpatine's rise. Dooku is, however, a much better diplomatic deceiver, corrupt politician, knows how to work the high class societies and manipulate them into warring against themselves (although with Sidious's plans).
Yeah, this was what I was gonna say.
Dooku is a great duelist.
But (source being the 1st Bane book for me) Bane is strong as hell, tough as hell, mean as hell, competitive as a duelist, and - most importantly - *can't afford to lose* and would either dig deeper to win or would even run away if he felt he had to. His fight IQ is through the fucking roof, barring occasional lapses.
Dooku is a villain from the Count of Monte Cristo.
Bane is like if the biggest shitkicker in your hometown got recruited by the UFC and then TOOK OVER the UFC.
Dooku is scary, but Bane is a force of nature.
People sleep on Dooku. If he can fight against Yoda then he’s easily able to fight against Bane. However, I do still believe Bane probably does win this but it’s due to fight logistics.
Bane is a bigger and stronger version of Anakin physically. Dooku is not going to enjoy having to deflect away those strikes. And Bane, while hammering Dooku with his Form V style, is more inclined to tax Dookus flagging stamina with barrages of force attacks than someone like Anakin was.
I don’t think the argument of rule of two get progressively stronger holds up for Dooku. He’s still extremely powerful but he’s not a true Sith. He’s a pawn for Palpatine and in legends he never displays the sith golden eyes. He’s not in the lineage and I think he doesn’t get that argument in his favour.
The only person Dooku loses definitely to is prime Anakin. He whoops literally everybody else he comes into contact with and stalemates Yoda.
The EU loved to try and outdo the films that’s for sure though
Dooku ran but Yoda couldn't defeat him. The duel took place after Dooku fought Obi Wan and Anakin, and the real reason he ran was because he couldn't risk the Death Star plans on him, nevermind the Republic reinforcement that were inbound and all of the separatists evacuating the planet.
No, it’s pretty much established that Dooku couldn’t beat Yoda. Dooku runs away again during Dark Rendezvous, despite the fact that they were on Vjun, a dark side nexus that could boost Dooku’s abilities. Various statements in lore, such as the new essential chronology, cite the duel on Geonosis as Dooku barely managing to escape with his life. And really just the way it plays out in the film via the conversations they have makes this clear. Dooku starts of boasting about how he’s now stronger than ANY Jedi. Yoda counters each of his force attacks, Dooku switches to the lightsaber, Yoda counters all of his attacks, Yoda says the fight is at an end and gives every indication he’s about to cut Dooku down, Dooku forces Yoda to choose between pursuing him or saving other Jedi. Again, it’s a clear indication of Dooku showing he wasn’t the better of the two.
You said Yoda couldn’t defeat him. Thats objectively false. He didn’t defeat him, but he absolutely could have if Dooku hadn’t run away. Thats my point. Him actively trying to kill Yoda and failing.
Two things can be true. Dooku fled because if he hadn’t he would’ve died and if he died the Jedi would’ve searched his body and gotten their hands on the Death Star plans. Again, everything about the duel makes it clear Dooku is not actually Yoda’s equal.
“The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.
The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one. Backed by the full power of the true Force, Yoda’s lightsaber was unmovable.
“Fought well, you have, my old Padawan,” Yoda said gently, giving him the truth, though he knew that the Count would not want to hear it. Count Dooku had never been happy to merely fight well; the best he must be, always. But not this time.
“This is just the beginning,” the Count snarled.
Yoda felt a great surge in the Force as Count Dooku pulled one of the service cranes off balance. The mass of metal and wire plummeted directly toward Obi-Wan and Anakin. Yoda could feel the two exhausted, injured Jedi reaching for the Force to keep the crane from falling, but they did not have enough strength left. The falling crane slowed but did not stop; it would surely crush them when it landed.
No decision was necessary. Too many Jedi have we lost today. Yoda bent his mind toward the crane, concentrating. The crane stopped abruptly in midair as if it had landed on some invisible table. Slowly, Yoda moved the crane away from Obi-Wan and Anakin, to an empty part of the hangar where it could settle safely to the ground.”
Nothing about this comes across as Yoda being unable to defeat Dooku, definitely comes across as Dooku being unable to defeat Yoda, and Dooku deliberately using Anakin and Obi-Wan as a distraction to save his own life.
It’s not that Dooku isn’t a true Sith, it’s that he never overcame his master (and most certainly never could). The progressively stronger lineage only applies to Sith who managed to kill their master. And even then it’s still more subjective, since being able to kill someone doesn’t always equal being more powerful than them. Palpatine never overcame Plagueis in an actual fight.
Dooku is definitely a part of the Rule Of Two and unlike Maul was not trained to be an assassin. Palpatine treated him as his genuine successor (hence why Dooku is able to fight someone like Yoda) and would eventually surpass Palpatine given enough time, but was currently weaker than Palpatine.
The reason why Dooku didn’t display the classic yellow Sith Eyes is because he limited his use of the dark side so he could retain a semblance of Jedi Discipline, and so he didn’t have to perform the same illusion on himself to look normal like Palpatine had too. It was something he did personally, not that Sidious taught him to do and he is way more powerful than Maul who is still a *Sith* Assassin.
>Palpatine treated him as his genuine successor
Palpatine never viewed Dooku as an actual successor. He intended for Anakin to be his real successor from pretty much the first moment they met. Dooku was always just a placeholder until Anakin could be turned. Palpatine lied to Dooku and told him that the two of them would rule the galaxy as equals with Anakin as their enforcer/underling. He even ordered Dooku to hold back during their fights so as not to accidentally kill Anakin.
Dooku is an absolute monster, but he never had the potential to actually surpass Palpatine, and they both knew that. He's still a true Sith though.
Honestly I feel as thought it’s a tough fight and their relatively even connection to the force wise and lightsaber ability. But I feel as tho bane would win. Yes dooku is a seasoned vet but he’s never really fought Sith or truly powerful dark siders as often as bane has and I feel that will cause Dookus judgement to be off and cause him to give bane a unforeseen opening. (Most likely to some Bs force ability bane knows that was lost too time throughout the years. The man had a love for Sith he considered ancient in his time and he’s ancient by the time dooku is born so.)
Dooku had much better and more feats, straight up. AOTC Dooku alone held off the grandmaster of the Order and easily stomped a 2v1 situation, where in most fights being outnumbered is a huge multiplier against you, against Kenobi and Anakin. If we add CWMMP opponents to the list, it’s straight up much better than Bane’s, if not very comparable.
Dude. Talk about completely misunderstanding a character
Darth Plageuis also got manipulated and tricked by Palpatine *despite being his master*
But I guess he was just a stupid pawn too
Plagueis got complacent. Thought he had so much power Palps wouldnt attempt to take over yet because he still had so much to teach. The guy was commanding mideclorians to leave peoples bodies through the force to kill them.
Sure Palpatine got him drunk and killed him when he fell asleep for the first time in 20 years. It's not even close to the same relationship dynamic as Dooku. Dooku was a pawn the whole time. A stop gap for Anakin. If you read the RoTS novelization he realizes it before he gets his head cut off before he dies. He thinks it as hes dying. I was played like a fool.
Dooku never became a master.
Still a Sith, placeholder or not. If Dooku killed Sidious who would’ve been a Sith then? Darth Maul got killed, and I’m sure Sidious was gonna replace him with Anakin, doesn’t make him lees of a Sith. Would you consider Darth Tyranus a true Sith in a what if scenario where he kills Anakin?
Would Palpatines plans change if Dooku killed Anakin? Your giving what ifs that never came close to happening. Anakin over powered and wiped the floor with Dooku in their last duel. It wasn't even close.
Have you read the RoTS book?
You’re missing the point, I don’t care if Dooku killed Anakin in ROTS or AOTC, the point is Dooku is in fact Darth Tyranus, a Sith all along since a short time after TPM. Were Plagueis, Maul and Vader placeholders? Maybe so, because that’s the way of the Sith, but that doesn’t make them less Sith than Sidious or Bane. Dooku is evil and mischievous, hiding behind a facade of a reformist but wants total power over the galaxy.
Also I haven’t read the ROTS book, heard it was good. I have Labyrinth of Evil and can’t find a time to read it. Any recommendations?
Sure, but a battle comes down to fighting styles, force powers, and tactics. I don’t see how making a plan and being able to construct a Holocron after nearly going insane plays into it. It’s not like he was a super genius who made the Holocron first try or came up with a flawless plan for the Sith.
I'm arguing Bane. With or without orbelisk armor, he has the experience advantage.
Dooku is from a Republic that hasn't seen war in millennia. Dooku himself may be a fantastic swordsman and a powerful Jedi/Sith, but he doesn't have that experience. Bane is the man who ended then preserved the Sith and killed an awful lot of Jedi. He has a lot more information on Sith Sorcery, and he has strong experience against other force users. I'm going with him 9 times out of 10.
Ok I remember in the book about bane, path of destruction I think, he has to fight the sith academy saber instructor. The instructor had a double saber a la darth maul. He also told anyone that dual lightsabers had an inherent weakness and wouldn't discuss it further.
For some reason or another, they're fighting each other and I think it was pretty even. Then the instructor disengages his doublesaber into two sabers. Bane freaks out and gets overwhelmed until he brings the cave or building they were in on top of the instructor. I loved that part because everyone believed the instructor about dual sabers and he kept it from everyone so he could have an edge. That's some prestige sorta shit.
Anyways, you might say, Dooku also beat Anakin who was using dual sabers. That's true, but Anakin probably didn't train in dual sabers because that lasted seven seconds before Dooku cut Obi-wan's saber at the base.
On the other hand, Bane beat the best swordmaster the sith had to offer by dropping the fucking building on him.
Other things that would factor in would be the orbalisk armor. It's lightsaber resistant but weak to force lightning. Then again, force lightning is trivial to block with a lightsaber, as displayed by Obi-wan. I'd say the armor is more of an advantage than a disadvantage.
When I really think about it, Bane is similar to Darth Vader in a few ways. Big strong dude in armor. Weak to lightning. Strong in force. Uses size and strength to overwhelm opponents in dueling.
I think Bane would take this but we don't have a lot of feats for prime Dooku. I would guess that Tales of the Jedi Dooku would be prime physicality, but would it be prime force power wise? Dooku told Obi-wan that his jedi powers were far beyond Obi's right after electrocuting Anakin. Was the lightning the "far beyond" that he was talking about? Possibly, it could also be using lightning in tandem with levitating Anakin into a nearby wall using one hand. That does seem pretty cool for the five seconds it was shown.
Bane smashes imo based on what I’ve read
Banes force ability seems to be far stronger, especially his Tk and lighting
His blade work for his time was second to none and his speed was great enough that he could create an energy shield from the rain. He had a subtle technique only masters could read
Dooku would win with very high difficulty due to bane’s massive strength and form V mastery (but it’s not enough to sway the entire fight in his favor). Dooku regularly contended with and out dueled anakin throughout the clone wars up until his death in ROTS where he was defeated in a duel. Anakin by episode 3 is considered the finest form V stylist/user ever in the eyes of dooku(which is very high praise coming from someone who is consistently billed as one of the most skilled swordsman the Jedi order has ever produced). The fact that dooku was able to even hang with Yoda for as long as he did raises his stock considerably. Speaking in regards to the force, as a rule of two sith he was afforded access to Palpatine’s knowledge and sith lore which would include bane’s holocron and knowledge on him. Dooku also has the experience factor in his corner with decades of Jedi discipline/knowledge in addition to his ten-ish years as a Sith Lord. Sure, bane has more “war-time” combat experience but its quality and not quantity that counts. Kaan’s sith brotherhood was largely watered down as far as sith. Due to the circumstances of the times, his brotherhood would accept just about anybody regardless of talent in the force or lightsaber as long as they were weak willed enough to be mind controlled by him.
Dooku has a leg up on him in terms of lightsaber combat but Bane massively outclasses him in terms of force ability. Bane wins, especially if they're both in their prime.
I like that Pureblood-esque design of Darth Andeddu in the background there.
I prefer to think he was a Red Sith. The timeline matches right. He seems to be a pre-Hyperspace War Darth.
Bane, with difficulty. Bane has the same advantages in physicality and lightsaber form that Anakin did during his final duel with Dooku. Bane he’s the same type of lightsaber as Dooku, so the advantages the small change in design offers are negated. Bane, imo, has a style of combat closer to Vader’s, in which he incorporates movements from other forms, the most important being Soresu. As shown by Obi-Wan during his final confrontation with Dooku a master Soresu duelist is capable of turning aside the Count’s attacks. Dooku’s feat with the rain is honestly more than enough to argue for him having the defensive speed necessary to deal with Dooku’s attacks. So, Bane basically has Anakin’s offensive advantage and Obi-Wan’s defensive advantage, which brings it down to power in The Force.
This isn’t early Dragon ball Z, where we’d have set numbers for how powerful each person is in terms of energy. We can only look at their feats. I think Bane’s feats of collapsing a temple on top of Kas’Im or reduce people to dust, and kill people immediately with force lightning speaks to him generally having a comparable amount of raw power. While I think people overrate Dooku having more knowledge than Bane I don’t think it really matters in terms of fighting capability. One knowing a spell or ritual that the other doesn’t is irrelevant unless that’s something applicable to combat.
So, I’d say this plays out similarly to how Anakin’s final duel with Dooku played out. The Count is eventually overwhelmed by a younger, physically stronger opponent.
Bane was way more powerful in the force also he knows Dooku‘s lightsaber hilt and is also familiar with Force Lightning. He would win easy. I mean he‘s one of the most powerful Sith, Dooku was great but not on the same lvl.
If Anakin’s Djem So can knock Dooku around, then Bane’s would destroy him. Bane’s lightning is just straight up better, and even if Dooku got a lightsaber offensive in, I doubt it’d be harder to block than the rainstorm Bane held back for ten minutes. Overall, I don’t think Bane is massively more powerful than him at all, but it’s just a really bad match up for Dooku due to fighting styles.
It would be interesting to say the least no matter what bane shows up imo. I know the Count isn't anywhere near bane, but he was a darkside wielder and his force lighting could definitely give Bane fits at least.
Hard to judge “power levels” that far apart in history, but my instinct says that Bane in his prime would be notably more powerful than Dooku in his prime.
Can someone actually source the "Bane had crazy strong Force Lighting" claim? AFAIK, I've read every piece of material related to Bane, and I've never gotten the impression that his lighting was uniquely powerful compared to any other Sith of his caliber. Surely nowhere close to the likes of Sidious or Starkiller.
Let's not forget that at the end of the dynasty of evil, it also vary strongly implied that a peace of Bane's conscience did imprint onto Zennah. So I think the better question would be, what chances do you think not just his ideas but himself was kept alive though the rule of two. Then you also have to think really going deep with this one, but maybe Plagueis created Anakin to subconsciously bring back Bane. Lol, fun idea
Bane and it’s not even close. Even without obelisk armor. Bane was fast enough to out fence a fuckin rain storm. Not to mention that Bane’s force ability also outclassed Dooku. So, while the initial duel would be at least interesting, Bane could just fall back on his force abilities at any time throughout the fight and it’d be over
Why is Revan in the background? Did he find a Holocron or force ghost or something? And the looks like Naga Sadow and Marka Ragnos, who’s the hooded character?
I'd say Bane. As much as I am reluctant to hand victories to Brotherhood of Darkness Sith over legendary duelists like Dooku, Bane has much more experience in street fights, as a soldier, and as a Sith. Bane killed his fair share of Jedi, too. Dooku, however, lived during a time of peace and only began to fight other Jedi/Sith in his later years, far past his prime.
Not sure tbh.
Bane with the orbalisks gives him an unfair advantage. He’s already a strength based muscle powerhouse, so being unable to take saber damage would let him plow through Dooku just like Anakin did. So he must lose the orbalisks.
Without the orbalisks he’s got better stamina and strength already , but I personally don’t think his dueling is as good as it’s made out to be.
His curved hilt would be a unique take against Dooku, but I doubt that it would give him an overwhelming edge since Dooku has fought better opponents, has more skill and used a curved hilt far longer then Bane did. Dooku would find openings in a duel to take Bane down, but it would be tough.
In the force is a different matter; because Bane once again has more stamina and the ability to power through.
Dooku has arguably better feats but he doesn’t have an overwhelming edge against Bane.
IMO they’re equals; Bane might be the more tanky powerhouse that can outlast the Count in a protracted fight; but Dooku is the better duelist and force wielder.
Bane has the potential to power through Dooku and take him down in the long game, but Dooku also has the opportunity to put an end to Bane with his superior skill with the blade; while stalemating him with the force for some time.
Going to go against the grain alittle here, I think Bane is stronger in the force, but not enough it would get him the win. It would come down to dueling skill in where Dooku has much more experience.If Dooku can kill him quickly he takes it, if they stalemate after a few engagements Bane wins through attrition.
Also it's an older video, but still might be entertaining.
https://youtu.be/HA5EmIpKkrY?si=02ptuLT-aUhwZvd8
I feel like dooku actually has less experience tbh, not only does Bane have traditional Gloom walker experience but he fought plenty Jedi AND Sith before he even took Zannah as his apprentice
I want Bane to win hes my fave character, but Gloom Walker experience doesn't really factor when fighting a Dark Lord. That's like saying a Kyle Katarn's time as a storm trooper helps him win saber duels.
I'm asuming the fight w Dooku happends with an UNamored Bane, because he wins hard in that scenario.
In POD
Bane has dueled with
Sith Academy students
Kasiim - Won with force power in the end - Good feat here
Quordis(?) - Choked him w the force
In RO2
Solos a group of Beast Riders, implied the crash at the end may have killed him without the power of the armor.
Easily kills Hetton - Zannah could have killed Hetton tbh.
Killed group of Sith Assasins, trained to fight yes, but more focused towards stealth and ambush.
Clapped 4 Jedi, (would have died without Orbalisk armor) - Impressive still
In DOE
Solos cultist temple on Prakith
Ambushed by Darth Cognus and Co. - Loses
Kills fodder prison guards on that mining world
Survives first Darth Zannah fight without a saber - Impressive
Loses 2nd duel w Darth Zannah
VS Dooku
Asaj Ventress - Notable Jedi killer
Yoda - (See Yoda)
ObiWan - Multiple times
Anakin - Multiple times
Quinlan Voss
Tiplee - Jedi Master, killed
Kav Bayons - Jedi knight, killed
Savage Oppress - don't care for him but notable
Sora Bulq - Notable Duelist
Tholme - Jedi Master
The list just gets longer.
I can see the fight going either way tbh, out of Book material Bane is my favorite but growing up watching movies and shows Dooku is my favorite ( I even own a replica of his lightsaber) But something in my Gut just says bane has it but it’s close
Bane would SLAP Dooku. Ancient/Old Republic Sith were another breed entirely. Bred to conquer, kill, and get stronger by any means necessary. Bane didn't start as a thinker, but he became one. Dooku would most likely believe Bane to be nothing but a large brute, like Savage Opress, and Bane would use that to his advantage, pretending to be overwhelmed by Dooku's Makashi form, and just when Dooku thinks he has the upper hand against him, Bane hits with with a flurry of hard strikes, totally pummeling him. Remember, Bane learned early on to shield his mind from people, so even if Dooku were to try and probe his thoughts, he'd most likely only sense immense anger, and maybe something deeper than that, but Dooku's personality would make him assume that Bane had untapped potential, that perhaps he could become a pawn. Only too late would Dooku realize his error.
Now, if he had fought Bane early on down his path to the dark side, let's say around the time he got poisoned by Githany, then Dooku would most likely win that battle. Bane was still very egotistical and fool hardy back then. But Bane in his prime vs Dooku in his prime? Hands down, Bane. It would be a great fight though, both of them trying to lure the other into a false sense of security, not revealing their whole hand outright.
I feel like the perfect time for Bane and dooku to battle would be Right before the Thought bomb with the brotherhood of evil. They strength and skill level I feel is the perfect match for dooku
>as we know it
This doesn't make any sense. We, the readers, know of all the Sith Orders written about before and after Bane's Rule of Two. His wasn't the only, nor even the longest-enduring, nor necessarily the best/most effective.
Yes, they came closest to driving the Jedi to extinction, but literally only Sidious and Vader got to enjoy being Galactic rulers after a millenium of Sith Lords having to skulk around and avoid drawing attention. *Lots* of work for thirty years of payoff, compared to the ancient sith ruling openly and luxuriously for far longer. Tbh I think the ancient sith probably felt a lot happier with their lives than the majority of Banite Sith.
I love Bane but Dooku takes this pretty handily, IMO. Dooku has more knowledge in the force, is a far better duelist with a lightsaber, and has much better feats when looked at objectively (much of Bane's best feats were plot devices or Orbalisk-enhanced, which would be a liability against Dooku's lightning).
Dooku may have only been a placeholder, but he was still a legitimate part of the Rule of Two for a decade, a decade in which he did learn much from Sidious and other Sith holocrons.
Dooku was on par with Anakin who was considered the best form 5 duelist ever. His loss to Anakin aboard the invisible hand was due largely to Anakin pretending to go for a form 4 style, but switching up to form 5 before Dooku could notice that he’d been had. Regardless though Dooku was essentially on par with basically the best form 5 duelist, he easily beats the best form 3 duelist, and he is on par with both Mace Windu and Yoda, both of whom are casually two of the best duelists in Star Wars history. Bane is a powerful duelist, but his best dueling feat is against Kas’im and that is not comparable to holding out against Yoda(even if Dooku was losing). So from a pure dueling standpoint Dooku is superior.
But the force is a different story. While Dooku was capable of even putting Yoda on edge with his lightning, Bane was capable of essentially disintegrating people with his, and his knowledge of the force was just so vast. So I’d say that he edges out Dooku here.
In all I think that Dooku wins if it’s a duel, but if Bane can find space and outlast Dooku, then he could use his lightning to make this more even.
There, you get it!
Hell, the Ka'sim fight even shows what he does when he's up against a superior duelist - just destroy the fucking room so the ceiling crushes him.
Granted, we saw Dooku could do some heavy lifting himself, but Bane could surely apply extra pressure. The dude is just too freaking strong.
I think Bane takes this one because he had more knowledge and experience with Sith teachings. Learning from literally some of the best ancient Sith. He’s got a high level of endurance considering the amount of mental and physical anguish he went through during his prime. Not to mention being significantly younger than Dooku. Bane is even more powerful than ROTS Anakin is in his prime and considering Dooku lost to Anakin… And I also have doubts that Palpatine showed Dooku that many tricks as a Sith apprentice considering he had no plans for Dooku to ever become a master. Most of Dooku’s skills are from his Jedi training anyway.
However I will give Dooku some props here because I don’t think he’d be demolished that quickly. Dooku is probably the most skilled Makashi duelist of all time and has spent even more time fighting Jedi than Bane has. He is slightly more agile and has had decades longer to hone his (while they might not be as advanced as Bane’s) skills. Plus he is a very cunning man and politician. He knows how to think a lot more critically than Bane and doesn’t let his emotions get the best of him. And while I think eventually Dooku would be worn down, he would probably have a better shot at deflecting or dodging most of Bane’s attacks.
It’s definitely an interesting matchup. But Bane is just an absolute power house. He is an insanely good duelist in Djem So (which we’ve seen on-screen and in the EU that Dooku hasn’t exactly done that well against users of that form) and is far more powerful in Sith lighting and other Sith powers than Dooku. Dooku is an old man with less Sith experience.
I think Dooku would fair well at the start but unless he can trick Bane into making a mistake, he’s going to eventually start wearing out. Bane is most likely automatically going to be on the offensive and put Dooku into defense. He’s going to have to throw something big at him to get the upper advantage.
I would have to dive back in and rewatch the movies, clone wars, novelizations, yoda: dark rendezvous, Darth bane trilogy, Jedi vs Sith, various short stories etc to give a true in depth analysis because I’ll admit it’s been a while since I have done any of that. But if I had to guess I’d say I probably wouldn’t change my answer even if I went back and studied each character.
It's the whole point of the Rule of 2. The master finds a strong apprentice. The apprentice gets stronger than the Master. The apprentice kills the master and the cycle repeats. For an apprentice to kill the current sith lord of their time they have to be stronger than previous sith.
My point is dooku was not the master so he was therefore not stronger than palps therefore using the argument of the rule of 2 cannot be applied here. Also I do not think that the rule of two allowed for some infinite power multiplication glitch shit but that’s a different debate entirely
That was the intention from Bane, but surely didn't worked like that. It worked with him and Zannah, but after that, not so much. Sure, Sith as a whole were getting stronger but mostly as power and influence behind the scene, as machinations and advance of their plan within the galactic republic.
Direct duels of masters vs apprentices like Bane and Zannah did, to prove for sure who is the strongest, most skilled and knowledgeable, not so much.
We don't know how Zannah died, we know Cognus first apprentice had run away, then there is Darth Vectivus who didn't killed his master and wasn't either killed by his apprentice but died peacefully in his bed, with family and friends around.
Darth Gravid gets a bit crazy and destroyed a huge part of Sith knowledge before to get killed by his apprentice, but that was a forced duel with neither him or his apprentice in full capacity. Plagueis and Sidious both killed their masters by sneaky means and not a direct duel either, so ignoring Bane wishes.
We simply don't know if there was any real progress after Zannah, as individual power and knowledge and skills in the force.
>the newer ones are stronger than their predecessors.
No, that's not even *slightly* true as a generalization.
*Supposing* that the apprentice is able to eventually kill their master, there are still many potential reasons for it:
* The master could be killed through a completely random event unrelated to the apprentice. Natural disasters, wars, freak accidents, or antagonizing Jackie Chan or something.
*They could use poison or other similar method to weaken their master or outright kill them
* They could arrange an ambush, such as using ship-based turbolasers while their master is in transit
* They could use a static device like bombs or other traps
* They *could* potentially duel their master and overwhelm them outright, but there is no reason that they must.
The rule of two, of the apprentice surviving their master, just means (at minimum) that the apprentice was lucky and clever enough to survive (possible having killed) *their* master. They've achieved a very specialized kill, with a method which might not work on or even be relevant to their *master's* master. Dooku could maybe beat one ancient sith but not a different one, and vice versa.
It's loosely how you see evolution occuring in species on our own planet--sometimes a completely useless mutation endures simply because the more competitive ones got removed from the gene pool in a landslide.
If you're *still* thinking that the apprentice surviving the master means that they're obviously stronger, please consider just how very many clone troopers survived killing their Jedi Generals. Weak + Clever can still overwhelm the Individually Strong, and the Rule of Two would still continue.
"*When your power eclipses mine I will become expendable. This is the Rule of Two: one Master and one apprentice. When you are ready to claim the mantle of Dark Lord as your own, you must do so by eliminating me.*"―Darth Bane: Rule of Two
Dooku takes it mid diff. Bane is good of course but he doesn’t have the feats to match Dooku. Like for example bane *is not* stalemating or getting the better of Yoda under any circumstances.
Dooku is wiser and is the better swordsman but Bane is faster, stronger, far more skilled and knowledgeable in the force and is extremely durable.
Overall I'd say that Bane beats Dooku 7/10 due to his superior, strength, speed, durablility and knowledge in the force.
Bane would win, he a form 5 specialist that supplements forms 3 and 7. Dooku is a just a well rounded form 2 specialist that would be defeated similar to how Anakin defeated him. Plus Bane is younger and has more force abilities!
If Bane is wearing the Orbelisk armour he would win. If its Bane during his final battle its debatable.
Yet you also have to take into consideration that in his Orbalisk armour Bane is susceptible to Force Lightning, which Dooku is proficient in. It would be a good fight anyway and I’m not really sure who would win.
We forgetting banes lighting can practically vaporize and kills on contact?
No we're not, but if bane encountered Dooku he probably wouldn't outright kill him. He'd definitely consider replacing his own apprentice with Dooku and would end up testing him, quite possibly giving Dooku the chance of take him out. I'd still give it to Bane, but chances of them teaming up are higher than chances of them killing one another.
>If its Bane during his final battle its debatable. Dooku can't summon dark side tentacles. And since I just finished the Bane trilogy for the first time yesterday I'd argue that Dooku might not be as strong in sith sorcery as Zannah and Bane to actually survive an essence transfer in the case of Bane using it as the last option.
>Dooku can't summon dark side tentacles. Yeah Dooku doesn't really do many sith sorcery related things. But he has other strengths that Zannah didn't have like being a much better swordsman and being better at more mundane force usage (telekinesis, lightining). >to actually survive an essence transfer in the case of Bane using it as the last option. To be fair, you don't need to know sith sorcery to resist essence transfer. Its more of a test of willpower. Granted Dooku hasn't really demonstrated many feats of willpower. But then again, I doubt Bane would use it anyway. He only did it during his fight with Zannah because he thought she was a fraud.
I would argue that Dooku’s demonstrated mastery of telekinesis (as shown by his training of Savage) is a result of his immense capacity to exert his will on the world around him.
Darth Zannah demonstrated more powerful telekinesis. Just think about what she did to Lucia. I can't remember seeing or reading about Dooku doing something similar. The Clone Wars is still canon and he needed the help of the Jedi when Hondo captured him.
>Yeah Dooku doesn't really do many sith sorcery related things. But he has other strengths that Zannah didn't have like being a much better swordsman and being better at more mundane force usage (telekinesis, lightining). But that was how Zannah won. When it comes down to swordsmanship or mundane force usage I'd bet my money on Bane. Don't get me wrong: Dooku is strong, exceedingly strong even. But Bane is stronger. Physical strenght is also a key point in swordsmanship, even with lightsabers. That's why the 2m juggernaut Bane taught the rather petite Zannah Soresu while he himself prefered more aggresive styles. And Bane knew all of the 7 styles. Also think about how Githany was suprised how powerfull his force lightning was from the get go when she taught him about it behind the masters on the academy on Korriban. When I compare Bane's force lightning to Dookus... well, I really like Dooku but I don't see him as a winner here. >To be fair, you don't need to know sith sorcery to resist essence transfer. Its more of a test of willpower. Granted Dooku hasn't really demonstrated many feats of willpower. But then again, I doubt Bane would use it anyway. He only did it during his fight with Zannah because he thought she was a fraud. Haha actually that's why I wasn't so sure Bane didn't win here until I read the clarifications of the author. Because Bane was probably one of the most headstrong people in the galaxy far far away. Still it's sith sorcery and that was never his speciality and neither Dooku's. Also I disagree with you about him using it because he thought she was a fraud. In my opinion he used it on her because at that point she literally materialized the dark force and attacked him in a way that made even him afraid of the 'dark side'/void. He knew at the point that he lost and it was his last try... and he failed poorly.
>But Bane is stronger. Physical strenght is also a key point in swordsmanship, even with lightsabers. Is he though? Bane may be inherently stronger, but with the force Dooku could absolutely compete. Grievous is much stronger that Bane physically (Grievous can hit hard enough to dent a starship hull, Smash Durge through solid stone and smash a Neumodians skull to pieces). Dooku can easily disarm Grievous without difficulty. Obi Wan is also physically stronger than Bane too (he can bend Grievous' duranium arm with zero effort) and Dooku could physically overpower him too. As for saber dwelling ability, I'll copy and paste the argument I made to someone else: "Bane has two majorly impressive duel showings in his belt. He beat the sith blade master of his academy which is very impressive but not beyond someone like Dooku. He also fought the 3 meditation amped masters but the orbelisks protected him throughout that fight. Also, only one of those jedi masters (Raskta) was actually any good as well. Johun's whole shtick was that he was a pretty weak and inexperienced jedi and Farfalla was just getting in the way. To put this into perspective, Grievous on his own was shown to be capable of fighting 4+ jedi on multiple occasions (CW 2003, Labyrinth of Evil). That included jedi like Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, K'Krukh. And when they tried setting two against him (Obsession) he beat them in literal moments (and one was Adi Gallia). The same Grievous is little more than fodder to Dooku. Now, Obi-Wan managed to beat Grievous with low difficulty in saber combat. Yeah, the whole fight was longer but Obi-Wan dominated the saber portion. It's also stated on many occasions that Obi-Wan is quite likely the best Soresu practioner of all time. And Dooku was fighting him and Anakin at the same time even as late as ep 3. He was at a disadvantage until he separated them, but the fact that he can take on someone out of Grievous league and another person even better than that (Anakin) and not be instantly butchered would make him far better than Bane as a duelist." >When I compare Bane's force lightning to Dookus... well, I really like Dooku but I don't see him as a winner here. When I mentioned force lightining I was mainly referring to how Dooku had it while Zannah didn't. I do agree though, Bane is much better with lightning. >He knew at the point that he lost and it was his last try... and he failed poorly. Yeah thats a viable interpretation too.
May I put in some points of discussion to this: - Bane is familiar with Dooku's combat form & lightsaber shape, so Dooku loses the element of surprise in those categories - Bane prefers the same combat form as Anakin, Djem So - Grievous was always told to have the intimidation factor & element of surprise on his side - if not, he should retreat. & The Jedi on Hypory were not only surprised & intimidated, but probably also both physically & mentally exhausted by the disastrous previous battle (though the fight still is a testament to Grievous immense abilities), & never underestimate the disadvantage of Grievous not being force-sensitive
Yes but remember Zannah is also a horrible duelist (at least compared to Bane) and is completely incapable of putting on any offensive pressure via her dueling skills, and she’s barely serviceable on defense as all she can do is bide for time Meanwhile Count Dooku is literally the best duelist of his era and is able to *punch up* against stronger force wielders like Yoda.
He can only punch up dueling wise because he’s the only one who ever bothered to study sword on sword combat Also you claim Zannah is barely serviceable on defense and can only bide time. That is literally what Bane taught her to do. “You lack the physical strength required for the powerful attacking strikes of Djem So or the other aggressive forms. You must rely on quickness, cunning and, most of all, patience to best your enemies.” She’s able to defend INDEFINITELY with her Soresu capabilities, and it became such an instinctual ability she could interweave force techniques with it. And of course swap to offense when the opponent tires or gets frustrated
No he’s not. Makashi isn’t the only form that teaches lightsaber combat and there are many other Jedi who mastered And even then Shaak-Ti and Ki-Adi Mundi both mastered Makashi too, Shaak-Ti’s level of skill was even compared *to* Count Dooku Mace Windu, Yoda, and Sidious are confirmed to have mastered every lightsaber form. And if Dooku was the only person who studied how to duel then how the hell did Obi-Wan or Anakin ever pose any challenge to him (and ultimately kill him) if they weren’t good duelists? Also just because Darth Zannah was taught that by Bane doesn’t mean it isn’t a weakness. She is still completely unable to pose a serious challenge offensively to anyone unless they drop their guard or become exhausted. She had to rely on the force almost entirely for offense because she had no other option. Dooku doesn’t have that weakness. He is perfectly serviceable on offense and defense and is an expert at dissecting his opponents guard and sneaking hits in. Even if they’re a master of Soresu like Kenobi. And Kenobi was *definitely* more skilled with Soresu than Zannah was.
Meanwhile Kenobi was not familiar with Dooku's lightsaber shape & the use of Makashi was quite rare at that point of time (though some learned it, probably pro forma)
Kenobi was not the only one who wasn’t familiar with Dooku’s lightsaber design. It was in fact an Ancient Sith design that he used which is why no Jedi used it (in fact in old Legends content he wielded a normal straight lightsaber in concept art of a Jedi Dooku). Meaning no Jedi, even Dooku before he turned would be familiar with it. I am not familiar with how Canon addresses this but Tales Of The Jedi retconned him to having a curved hilted lightsaber. However this is only true for Episode 2 Kenobi. He would go on to fight Assajj Ventress, General Grevious, and Dooku himself various times throughout the war in both continuities and perform extremely well. Same goes for Anakin, Plo-Koon, and Kit Fisto, Shaak-Ti, Ki-Adi Mundi and all the other Jedi who fought either Assajj, General Grevious, or Dooku. And just because use of *Makashi* was rare doesn’t mean the Jedi weren’t familiar with saber to saber combat. Makashi was not the only discipline that taught that, there were multiple other forms that did as well.
>Yes but remember Zannah is also a horrible duelist (at least compared to Bane) and is completely incapable of putting on any offensive pressure via her dueling skills, and she’s barely serviceable on defense as all she can do is bide for time Hmm, from where did you get that Zannah is a horrible duelist? Surely not something from the books. I mean, yeah, she is not as good as Bane but she is close enough to hold up to him for quite long. And Bane at their final duel was considered by Zannah to be faster than she could ever imagined, and incorporating as well in his usual fight styles a different, new style to surprise her Even as a 19-20 years old apprentice at her first real life or death duel she was doing well enough vs 2 opponents in that duel on Tython, and she sparred the life of one of her opponent several times just because he style was interfering awkwardly with the better style of the other opponent and she was able to play one against the other. She was also casually dominating in lightsaber duel Set Harth, a very competent dark Jedi that she intended at that time to make him her apprentice. As much as she was disarming him at some point, mockingly kicking him in the back or straight up kicking him in the face, and could have killed him straight up if she had wished to. She is quite an excellent duelist with lot of skill, stamina and agility, and she have skills that very few, if any one else, have, regarding Sith sorcery, she is by the end probably the best Sith sorcerer (well, sorceress) in SW universe. >Meanwhile Count Dooku is literally the best duelist of his era and is able to punch up against stronger force wielders like Yoda. Bane fought against the best of the best of his era, which is a time when the light saber duels where at the peak during a war that seen thousands of Sith and Jedi dueling eachother on the battlefields, for years. Bane fought Raskta Lsu, the Jedi weapon master or battlemaster who was said she had killed in direct combat as many Sith as the thought bomb (a thousand or so, iirc) so she was an extremely good duelist, like extremely skilled, with feats way beyond anyone from Dooku era, surpassing by far even the likes of Mace Windu Bane also fought Kasim, the Sith weapon master who was considered by the book narration as the best swordsman in the galaxy (if not ever), so superior to his Jedi counterpart mentioned above. That was Bane well before his prime. Sure, he won at the end by using his superior force power and telekinesis but he dominated the lightsaber duel up to the end, when Kasim switched the tide and started winning by using two swords and an unfamiliar style for Bane Bane fought 1 vs 2 and vs 3 against Raskta Lsu, Farfalla (who was the Jedi grandmaster at that time, iirc) and his former student, all empowered by another Jedi master battle meditation. Force wise, Bane is so above Dooku that that alone make the fight really unbalanced. Bane force lightnings are so powerful that can burn to a crisp orbalisks, who otherwise are invulnerable to light saber strikes. Thats beyond what Dooku (or even Sidious I say) can do with their force lightning. Iirc Plaguies himself said that by his time Bane was considered a god like figure with legendary feats, and if we look at feats alone that is quite true
Dude. Bane pre or post Orbalisk is a bad mother. I love Dookus character, but his ability to conjure force lightning is a joke next to Bane. Bane may have lost some lightsaber ability post obelisk, which he is aware of and may have made him MORE dangerous. Dookus real ability was in lightsaber combat which could make him formidable against Bane, but ultimately I think Bane takes it, and if I'm honest, by a longshot. No way a pretentious rich boy wins over a Sith lord raised working the mines and forged by war who single handedly destroyed the existing Sith and defeating sword masters. I don't think Dooku has the experience or power level. Just my 2 cents.
>love Dookus character, but his ability to conjure force lightning is a joke next to Bane. Yeah I agree. >Dookus real ability was in lightsaber combat which could make him formidable against Bane, but ultimately I think Bane takes it, and if I'm honest, by a longshot. I would disagree. Bane has two majorly impressive duel showings in his belt. He beat the sith blade master of his academy which is very impressive but not beyond someone like Dooku. He also fought the 3 meditation amped masters but the orbelisks protected him throughout that fight. Also, only one of those jedi masters (Raskta) was actually any good as well. Johun's whole shtick was that he was a pretty weak and inexperienced jedi and Farfalla was just getting in the way. To put this into perspective, Grievous on his own was shown to be capable of fighting 4+ jedi on multiple occasions (CW 2003, Labyrinth of Evil). That included jedi like Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, K'Krukh. And when they tried setting two against him (Obsession) he beat them in literal moments (and one was Adi Gallia). The same Grievous is little more than fodder to Dooku. Now, Obi-Wan managed to beat Grievous with low difficulty in saber combat. Yeah, the whole fight was longer but Obi-Wan dominated the saber portion. It's also stated on many occasions that Obi-Wan is quite likely the best Soresu practioner of all time. And Dooku was fighting him and Anakin at the same time even as late as ep 3. He was at a disadvantage until he separated them, but the fact that he can take on someone out of Grievous' league and another person even better than that (Anakin) and not be instantly butchered would make him far better than Bane as a duelist. >No way a pretentious rich boy wins over a Sith lord raised working the mines and forged by war who single handedly destroyed the existing Sith and defeating sword masters. I don't think Dooku has the experience or power level. Appearances can be deceiving. Palpatine was also a pretentious, albeit psychotic noble from Naboo before Plagueis found him. And the training he endured was brutal. Plagueis had Palpatine climbing mountains during planetary storms that no ordinary human could survive without envirosuits. We don't see much of Palpatine's training of Dooku but its safe to say it must have been very brutal as well. I would also say that being forged by war isn't everything. And Bane technically didn't fight in the war as a sith (he was an ordinary soldier and the war ended very shortly after he graduated from the Korriban academy). Look at Exar Kun. Kun is revered as one of the greatest saber duelists of all time and he was born/trained in a time of absolute peace. The people of Bane's era and the era before that were worshipping men like Kun.
You make some very good points, sir. I do think I would second guess judging Dooku by his upbringing based on what we know about Sidious' training. I don't think Greivous is a good measuring stick only because Dooku trained him, and he isn't force sensitive, so he's at a serious disadvantage. The fights with Obi-Wan, I would say, are a good argument to his overall abilities. Boy, he handed him his ass twice, lol! That being said, I still think Dooku wouldn't quite take it. I go back to the times they existed and were trained. However, there's also a solid argument that Dooku, kind of being a part of Banes line (if it's working as designed) WOULD or SHOULD be able to take him and I think Bane would be very disappointed if a Sith a thousand years down the line, wasn't far more powerful than himself.
Nerd
Thanks 💀
Nah bud used the skull emoji.
Least obvious ragebait 😭.
Bro it’s a nerdy subject. This literally applies to everyone in this comment section if not the entire subreddit If you’re gonna insult someone at least be original about it
Bane in his prime used torrential rainstorms to practice his lightsaber skills. He blocked EVERY SINGLE raindrop and remained perfectly dry.
Least nonsensical Bane feat
Even when i read that as a kid i thought that was a bit much lol
I fucking love Darth Bane
He also beat Sith lightsaber masters at their prime, during a galactic conflict which pushed both Jedi and Sith to be at their best in terms of lightsaber proficiency
Bane would win because he's a better fighter and has been fighting through some pretty serious wars and conflicts since he enlisted with the Gloom Walkers at like 20 years old. He's just trained to be better attuned to fighting, and his force powers were learned from both his love of ancient knowledge and intelligence, which I believe surpassed Dooku. The only reason Dooku was special was due to who his master was and the timing of his fall with Palpatine's rise. Dooku is, however, a much better diplomatic deceiver, corrupt politician, knows how to work the high class societies and manipulate them into warring against themselves (although with Sidious's plans).
Yeah, this was what I was gonna say. Dooku is a great duelist. But (source being the 1st Bane book for me) Bane is strong as hell, tough as hell, mean as hell, competitive as a duelist, and - most importantly - *can't afford to lose* and would either dig deeper to win or would even run away if he felt he had to. His fight IQ is through the fucking roof, barring occasional lapses. Dooku is a villain from the Count of Monte Cristo. Bane is like if the biggest shitkicker in your hometown got recruited by the UFC and then TOOK OVER the UFC. Dooku is scary, but Bane is a force of nature.
Yep, I feel like Bane would be a lot more creative in a duel to the death than Dooku.
People sleep on Dooku. If he can fight against Yoda then he’s easily able to fight against Bane. However, I do still believe Bane probably does win this but it’s due to fight logistics. Bane is a bigger and stronger version of Anakin physically. Dooku is not going to enjoy having to deflect away those strikes. And Bane, while hammering Dooku with his Form V style, is more inclined to tax Dookus flagging stamina with barrages of force attacks than someone like Anakin was. I don’t think the argument of rule of two get progressively stronger holds up for Dooku. He’s still extremely powerful but he’s not a true Sith. He’s a pawn for Palpatine and in legends he never displays the sith golden eyes. He’s not in the lineage and I think he doesn’t get that argument in his favour.
The only person Dooku loses definitely to is prime Anakin. He whoops literally everybody else he comes into contact with and stalemates Yoda. The EU loved to try and outdo the films that’s for sure though
>stalemates Yoda. Uh, he runs away from Yoda after a while. It's not like they mutually agreed to end the fight, unless I'm misremembering?
Dooku ran but Yoda couldn't defeat him. The duel took place after Dooku fought Obi Wan and Anakin, and the real reason he ran was because he couldn't risk the Death Star plans on him, nevermind the Republic reinforcement that were inbound and all of the separatists evacuating the planet.
Yoda didn't defeat him before he ran, which is not the same as being unable to beat him if the fight extended longer.
No, it’s pretty much established that Dooku couldn’t beat Yoda. Dooku runs away again during Dark Rendezvous, despite the fact that they were on Vjun, a dark side nexus that could boost Dooku’s abilities. Various statements in lore, such as the new essential chronology, cite the duel on Geonosis as Dooku barely managing to escape with his life. And really just the way it plays out in the film via the conversations they have makes this clear. Dooku starts of boasting about how he’s now stronger than ANY Jedi. Yoda counters each of his force attacks, Dooku switches to the lightsaber, Yoda counters all of his attacks, Yoda says the fight is at an end and gives every indication he’s about to cut Dooku down, Dooku forces Yoda to choose between pursuing him or saving other Jedi. Again, it’s a clear indication of Dooku showing he wasn’t the better of the two.
I never said that Dooku could defeat Yoda and I already explained why Dooku needed to run (which is also established in the lore).
You said Yoda couldn’t defeat him. Thats objectively false. He didn’t defeat him, but he absolutely could have if Dooku hadn’t run away. Thats my point. Him actively trying to kill Yoda and failing. Two things can be true. Dooku fled because if he hadn’t he would’ve died and if he died the Jedi would’ve searched his body and gotten their hands on the Death Star plans. Again, everything about the duel makes it clear Dooku is not actually Yoda’s equal. “The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer. The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one. Backed by the full power of the true Force, Yoda’s lightsaber was unmovable. “Fought well, you have, my old Padawan,” Yoda said gently, giving him the truth, though he knew that the Count would not want to hear it. Count Dooku had never been happy to merely fight well; the best he must be, always. But not this time. “This is just the beginning,” the Count snarled. Yoda felt a great surge in the Force as Count Dooku pulled one of the service cranes off balance. The mass of metal and wire plummeted directly toward Obi-Wan and Anakin. Yoda could feel the two exhausted, injured Jedi reaching for the Force to keep the crane from falling, but they did not have enough strength left. The falling crane slowed but did not stop; it would surely crush them when it landed. No decision was necessary. Too many Jedi have we lost today. Yoda bent his mind toward the crane, concentrating. The crane stopped abruptly in midair as if it had landed on some invisible table. Slowly, Yoda moved the crane away from Obi-Wan and Anakin, to an empty part of the hangar where it could settle safely to the ground.” Nothing about this comes across as Yoda being unable to defeat Dooku, definitely comes across as Dooku being unable to defeat Yoda, and Dooku deliberately using Anakin and Obi-Wan as a distraction to save his own life.
Look at how he litterally disables Kenobi with utter ease while dealing with a duelist who the creator has as his superior.
It’s not that Dooku isn’t a true Sith, it’s that he never overcame his master (and most certainly never could). The progressively stronger lineage only applies to Sith who managed to kill their master. And even then it’s still more subjective, since being able to kill someone doesn’t always equal being more powerful than them. Palpatine never overcame Plagueis in an actual fight.
I’m tired of people saying DARTH Tyranus is not a true Sith
Dooku is definitely a part of the Rule Of Two and unlike Maul was not trained to be an assassin. Palpatine treated him as his genuine successor (hence why Dooku is able to fight someone like Yoda) and would eventually surpass Palpatine given enough time, but was currently weaker than Palpatine. The reason why Dooku didn’t display the classic yellow Sith Eyes is because he limited his use of the dark side so he could retain a semblance of Jedi Discipline, and so he didn’t have to perform the same illusion on himself to look normal like Palpatine had too. It was something he did personally, not that Sidious taught him to do and he is way more powerful than Maul who is still a *Sith* Assassin.
>Palpatine treated him as his genuine successor Palpatine never viewed Dooku as an actual successor. He intended for Anakin to be his real successor from pretty much the first moment they met. Dooku was always just a placeholder until Anakin could be turned. Palpatine lied to Dooku and told him that the two of them would rule the galaxy as equals with Anakin as their enforcer/underling. He even ordered Dooku to hold back during their fights so as not to accidentally kill Anakin. Dooku is an absolute monster, but he never had the potential to actually surpass Palpatine, and they both knew that. He's still a true Sith though.
Bane
Honestly I feel as thought it’s a tough fight and their relatively even connection to the force wise and lightsaber ability. But I feel as tho bane would win. Yes dooku is a seasoned vet but he’s never really fought Sith or truly powerful dark siders as often as bane has and I feel that will cause Dookus judgement to be off and cause him to give bane a unforeseen opening. (Most likely to some Bs force ability bane knows that was lost too time throughout the years. The man had a love for Sith he considered ancient in his time and he’s ancient by the time dooku is born so.)
Bane
Dooku had much better and more feats, straight up. AOTC Dooku alone held off the grandmaster of the Order and easily stomped a 2v1 situation, where in most fights being outnumbered is a huge multiplier against you, against Kenobi and Anakin. If we add CWMMP opponents to the list, it’s straight up much better than Bane’s, if not very comparable.
Didn't Bane figure holocrons out? Dooku was just a stupid pawn. Homie got played. Darth Bane created the master plan. I'll leave it at that.
Dude. Talk about completely misunderstanding a character Darth Plageuis also got manipulated and tricked by Palpatine *despite being his master* But I guess he was just a stupid pawn too
Hell yea!
Plagueis got played, isn’t he a true Sith?
Plagueis got complacent. Thought he had so much power Palps wouldnt attempt to take over yet because he still had so much to teach. The guy was commanding mideclorians to leave peoples bodies through the force to kill them. Sure Palpatine got him drunk and killed him when he fell asleep for the first time in 20 years. It's not even close to the same relationship dynamic as Dooku. Dooku was a pawn the whole time. A stop gap for Anakin. If you read the RoTS novelization he realizes it before he gets his head cut off before he dies. He thinks it as hes dying. I was played like a fool. Dooku never became a master.
Still a Sith, placeholder or not. If Dooku killed Sidious who would’ve been a Sith then? Darth Maul got killed, and I’m sure Sidious was gonna replace him with Anakin, doesn’t make him lees of a Sith. Would you consider Darth Tyranus a true Sith in a what if scenario where he kills Anakin?
Would Palpatines plans change if Dooku killed Anakin? Your giving what ifs that never came close to happening. Anakin over powered and wiped the floor with Dooku in their last duel. It wasn't even close. Have you read the RoTS book?
You’re missing the point, I don’t care if Dooku killed Anakin in ROTS or AOTC, the point is Dooku is in fact Darth Tyranus, a Sith all along since a short time after TPM. Were Plagueis, Maul and Vader placeholders? Maybe so, because that’s the way of the Sith, but that doesn’t make them less Sith than Sidious or Bane. Dooku is evil and mischievous, hiding behind a facade of a reformist but wants total power over the galaxy. Also I haven’t read the ROTS book, heard it was good. I have Labyrinth of Evil and can’t find a time to read it. Any recommendations?
I may know of a website that has every Star wars book ever in audio book form for free lol
I agree Bane wins, but I don’t see how him figuring holocrons out acts as evidence for his victory lol?
Its just a feather in his cap.
Sure, but a battle comes down to fighting styles, force powers, and tactics. I don’t see how making a plan and being able to construct a Holocron after nearly going insane plays into it. It’s not like he was a super genius who made the Holocron first try or came up with a flawless plan for the Sith.
I don’t know why this sub was recommended to me but I’m going to just say Acrylic Paint Christopher Lee probably has this in the bag.
I'm arguing Bane. With or without orbelisk armor, he has the experience advantage. Dooku is from a Republic that hasn't seen war in millennia. Dooku himself may be a fantastic swordsman and a powerful Jedi/Sith, but he doesn't have that experience. Bane is the man who ended then preserved the Sith and killed an awful lot of Jedi. He has a lot more information on Sith Sorcery, and he has strong experience against other force users. I'm going with him 9 times out of 10.
Bane is the Sith Dooku wishes he was
Dooku
Ok I remember in the book about bane, path of destruction I think, he has to fight the sith academy saber instructor. The instructor had a double saber a la darth maul. He also told anyone that dual lightsabers had an inherent weakness and wouldn't discuss it further. For some reason or another, they're fighting each other and I think it was pretty even. Then the instructor disengages his doublesaber into two sabers. Bane freaks out and gets overwhelmed until he brings the cave or building they were in on top of the instructor. I loved that part because everyone believed the instructor about dual sabers and he kept it from everyone so he could have an edge. That's some prestige sorta shit. Anyways, you might say, Dooku also beat Anakin who was using dual sabers. That's true, but Anakin probably didn't train in dual sabers because that lasted seven seconds before Dooku cut Obi-wan's saber at the base. On the other hand, Bane beat the best swordmaster the sith had to offer by dropping the fucking building on him. Other things that would factor in would be the orbalisk armor. It's lightsaber resistant but weak to force lightning. Then again, force lightning is trivial to block with a lightsaber, as displayed by Obi-wan. I'd say the armor is more of an advantage than a disadvantage. When I really think about it, Bane is similar to Darth Vader in a few ways. Big strong dude in armor. Weak to lightning. Strong in force. Uses size and strength to overwhelm opponents in dueling. I think Bane would take this but we don't have a lot of feats for prime Dooku. I would guess that Tales of the Jedi Dooku would be prime physicality, but would it be prime force power wise? Dooku told Obi-wan that his jedi powers were far beyond Obi's right after electrocuting Anakin. Was the lightning the "far beyond" that he was talking about? Possibly, it could also be using lightning in tandem with levitating Anakin into a nearby wall using one hand. That does seem pretty cool for the five seconds it was shown.
Both could win
Darth Bane for sure.
Bane with his orbelisk armor is virtually invincible. The only person who could beat him with it on is Palpatine.
Bane smashes imo based on what I’ve read Banes force ability seems to be far stronger, especially his Tk and lighting His blade work for his time was second to none and his speed was great enough that he could create an energy shield from the rain. He had a subtle technique only masters could read
Bane lol hes far more powerful. He has access to knowledge that Sidious wouldnt share with a pawn like dooku.
Dooku would win with very high difficulty due to bane’s massive strength and form V mastery (but it’s not enough to sway the entire fight in his favor). Dooku regularly contended with and out dueled anakin throughout the clone wars up until his death in ROTS where he was defeated in a duel. Anakin by episode 3 is considered the finest form V stylist/user ever in the eyes of dooku(which is very high praise coming from someone who is consistently billed as one of the most skilled swordsman the Jedi order has ever produced). The fact that dooku was able to even hang with Yoda for as long as he did raises his stock considerably. Speaking in regards to the force, as a rule of two sith he was afforded access to Palpatine’s knowledge and sith lore which would include bane’s holocron and knowledge on him. Dooku also has the experience factor in his corner with decades of Jedi discipline/knowledge in addition to his ten-ish years as a Sith Lord. Sure, bane has more “war-time” combat experience but its quality and not quantity that counts. Kaan’s sith brotherhood was largely watered down as far as sith. Due to the circumstances of the times, his brotherhood would accept just about anybody regardless of talent in the force or lightsaber as long as they were weak willed enough to be mind controlled by him.
If it’s pure saber Dooku if it’s force it’s bane if it’s both then it’s up for question most likely bane I’d say
Dooku has always been a placeholder for Palpatine in both continuities.
If Doki were able to get a good hit with force lightning in on Bane’s armor then he 100% wins
Same goes in reverse though. If Bane gets a lightning hit on Dooku then he gets disintegrated.
I want to say Dooku but Bane is the clear superior
Bane. Dooku was not a master.
Bane ez
Dooku cause he was a nice beard
Depends on your view of the sith. Do they keep getting stronger the further from Bane, or do they keep getting weaker?
Dooku has a leg up on him in terms of lightsaber combat but Bane massively outclasses him in terms of force ability. Bane wins, especially if they're both in their prime.
I like that Pureblood-esque design of Darth Andeddu in the background there. I prefer to think he was a Red Sith. The timeline matches right. He seems to be a pre-Hyperspace War Darth.
Dooku is probably a better duelist but nowhere near Bane’s strength in the force
Bane, with difficulty. Bane has the same advantages in physicality and lightsaber form that Anakin did during his final duel with Dooku. Bane he’s the same type of lightsaber as Dooku, so the advantages the small change in design offers are negated. Bane, imo, has a style of combat closer to Vader’s, in which he incorporates movements from other forms, the most important being Soresu. As shown by Obi-Wan during his final confrontation with Dooku a master Soresu duelist is capable of turning aside the Count’s attacks. Dooku’s feat with the rain is honestly more than enough to argue for him having the defensive speed necessary to deal with Dooku’s attacks. So, Bane basically has Anakin’s offensive advantage and Obi-Wan’s defensive advantage, which brings it down to power in The Force. This isn’t early Dragon ball Z, where we’d have set numbers for how powerful each person is in terms of energy. We can only look at their feats. I think Bane’s feats of collapsing a temple on top of Kas’Im or reduce people to dust, and kill people immediately with force lightning speaks to him generally having a comparable amount of raw power. While I think people overrate Dooku having more knowledge than Bane I don’t think it really matters in terms of fighting capability. One knowing a spell or ritual that the other doesn’t is irrelevant unless that’s something applicable to combat. So, I’d say this plays out similarly to how Anakin’s final duel with Dooku played out. The Count is eventually overwhelmed by a younger, physically stronger opponent.
Why would OP ask this question? Is he stupid?
Bane was way more powerful in the force also he knows Dooku‘s lightsaber hilt and is also familiar with Force Lightning. He would win easy. I mean he‘s one of the most powerful Sith, Dooku was great but not on the same lvl.
Bane
Darth Bane. I dont see how Dooku could have the upper hand in that duel.
If Anakin’s Djem So can knock Dooku around, then Bane’s would destroy him. Bane’s lightning is just straight up better, and even if Dooku got a lightsaber offensive in, I doubt it’d be harder to block than the rainstorm Bane held back for ten minutes. Overall, I don’t think Bane is massively more powerful than him at all, but it’s just a really bad match up for Dooku due to fighting styles.
It would be interesting to say the least no matter what bane shows up imo. I know the Count isn't anywhere near bane, but he was a darkside wielder and his force lighting could definitely give Bane fits at least.
Darth Bane
Hard to judge “power levels” that far apart in history, but my instinct says that Bane in his prime would be notably more powerful than Dooku in his prime.
not even a question. bane is the master, dooku is barely an apprentice.
Can someone actually source the "Bane had crazy strong Force Lighting" claim? AFAIK, I've read every piece of material related to Bane, and I've never gotten the impression that his lighting was uniquely powerful compared to any other Sith of his caliber. Surely nowhere close to the likes of Sidious or Starkiller.
Let's not forget that at the end of the dynasty of evil, it also vary strongly implied that a peace of Bane's conscience did imprint onto Zennah. So I think the better question would be, what chances do you think not just his ideas but himself was kept alive though the rule of two. Then you also have to think really going deep with this one, but maybe Plagueis created Anakin to subconsciously bring back Bane. Lol, fun idea
Bane and it’s not even close. Even without obelisk armor. Bane was fast enough to out fence a fuckin rain storm. Not to mention that Bane’s force ability also outclassed Dooku. So, while the initial duel would be at least interesting, Bane could just fall back on his force abilities at any time throughout the fight and it’d be over
Why is Revan in the background? Did he find a Holocron or force ghost or something? And the looks like Naga Sadow and Marka Ragnos, who’s the hooded character?
I'd say Bane. As much as I am reluctant to hand victories to Brotherhood of Darkness Sith over legendary duelists like Dooku, Bane has much more experience in street fights, as a soldier, and as a Sith. Bane killed his fair share of Jedi, too. Dooku, however, lived during a time of peace and only began to fight other Jedi/Sith in his later years, far past his prime.
Not sure tbh. Bane with the orbalisks gives him an unfair advantage. He’s already a strength based muscle powerhouse, so being unable to take saber damage would let him plow through Dooku just like Anakin did. So he must lose the orbalisks. Without the orbalisks he’s got better stamina and strength already , but I personally don’t think his dueling is as good as it’s made out to be. His curved hilt would be a unique take against Dooku, but I doubt that it would give him an overwhelming edge since Dooku has fought better opponents, has more skill and used a curved hilt far longer then Bane did. Dooku would find openings in a duel to take Bane down, but it would be tough. In the force is a different matter; because Bane once again has more stamina and the ability to power through. Dooku has arguably better feats but he doesn’t have an overwhelming edge against Bane. IMO they’re equals; Bane might be the more tanky powerhouse that can outlast the Count in a protracted fight; but Dooku is the better duelist and force wielder. Bane has the potential to power through Dooku and take him down in the long game, but Dooku also has the opportunity to put an end to Bane with his superior skill with the blade; while stalemating him with the force for some time.
Going to go against the grain alittle here, I think Bane is stronger in the force, but not enough it would get him the win. It would come down to dueling skill in where Dooku has much more experience.If Dooku can kill him quickly he takes it, if they stalemate after a few engagements Bane wins through attrition. Also it's an older video, but still might be entertaining. https://youtu.be/HA5EmIpKkrY?si=02ptuLT-aUhwZvd8
I feel like dooku actually has less experience tbh, not only does Bane have traditional Gloom walker experience but he fought plenty Jedi AND Sith before he even took Zannah as his apprentice
I want Bane to win hes my fave character, but Gloom Walker experience doesn't really factor when fighting a Dark Lord. That's like saying a Kyle Katarn's time as a storm trooper helps him win saber duels. I'm asuming the fight w Dooku happends with an UNamored Bane, because he wins hard in that scenario. In POD Bane has dueled with Sith Academy students Kasiim - Won with force power in the end - Good feat here Quordis(?) - Choked him w the force In RO2 Solos a group of Beast Riders, implied the crash at the end may have killed him without the power of the armor. Easily kills Hetton - Zannah could have killed Hetton tbh. Killed group of Sith Assasins, trained to fight yes, but more focused towards stealth and ambush. Clapped 4 Jedi, (would have died without Orbalisk armor) - Impressive still In DOE Solos cultist temple on Prakith Ambushed by Darth Cognus and Co. - Loses Kills fodder prison guards on that mining world Survives first Darth Zannah fight without a saber - Impressive Loses 2nd duel w Darth Zannah VS Dooku Asaj Ventress - Notable Jedi killer Yoda - (See Yoda) ObiWan - Multiple times Anakin - Multiple times Quinlan Voss Tiplee - Jedi Master, killed Kav Bayons - Jedi knight, killed Savage Oppress - don't care for him but notable Sora Bulq - Notable Duelist Tholme - Jedi Master The list just gets longer.
I can see the fight going either way tbh, out of Book material Bane is my favorite but growing up watching movies and shows Dooku is my favorite ( I even own a replica of his lightsaber) But something in my Gut just says bane has it but it’s close
Agreed
](https://youtu.be/xi_3v-FpKFg?si=GvTIRea8cQJAyLEB)
Bane would SLAP Dooku. Ancient/Old Republic Sith were another breed entirely. Bred to conquer, kill, and get stronger by any means necessary. Bane didn't start as a thinker, but he became one. Dooku would most likely believe Bane to be nothing but a large brute, like Savage Opress, and Bane would use that to his advantage, pretending to be overwhelmed by Dooku's Makashi form, and just when Dooku thinks he has the upper hand against him, Bane hits with with a flurry of hard strikes, totally pummeling him. Remember, Bane learned early on to shield his mind from people, so even if Dooku were to try and probe his thoughts, he'd most likely only sense immense anger, and maybe something deeper than that, but Dooku's personality would make him assume that Bane had untapped potential, that perhaps he could become a pawn. Only too late would Dooku realize his error. Now, if he had fought Bane early on down his path to the dark side, let's say around the time he got poisoned by Githany, then Dooku would most likely win that battle. Bane was still very egotistical and fool hardy back then. But Bane in his prime vs Dooku in his prime? Hands down, Bane. It would be a great fight though, both of them trying to lure the other into a false sense of security, not revealing their whole hand outright.
I feel like the perfect time for Bane and dooku to battle would be Right before the Thought bomb with the brotherhood of evil. They strength and skill level I feel is the perfect match for dooku
How is this even a question. Dooku is a pawn. Bane created the sith order as we know it and the rule of 2. Bane would completely demolish Dooku
Everyone was a pawn when it came to Palpatine,this repetitive statement of fact means nothing.
>as we know it This doesn't make any sense. We, the readers, know of all the Sith Orders written about before and after Bane's Rule of Two. His wasn't the only, nor even the longest-enduring, nor necessarily the best/most effective. Yes, they came closest to driving the Jedi to extinction, but literally only Sidious and Vader got to enjoy being Galactic rulers after a millenium of Sith Lords having to skulk around and avoid drawing attention. *Lots* of work for thirty years of payoff, compared to the ancient sith ruling openly and luxuriously for far longer. Tbh I think the ancient sith probably felt a lot happier with their lives than the majority of Banite Sith.
I love Bane but Dooku takes this pretty handily, IMO. Dooku has more knowledge in the force, is a far better duelist with a lightsaber, and has much better feats when looked at objectively (much of Bane's best feats were plot devices or Orbalisk-enhanced, which would be a liability against Dooku's lightning). Dooku may have only been a placeholder, but he was still a legitimate part of the Rule of Two for a decade, a decade in which he did learn much from Sidious and other Sith holocrons.
Couldn’t have said it better. People underestimate Dooku when he is one hell of a Sith…
How does he have more force knowledge??
Dooku was twice as old as Bane and had access to the forbidden Sith holocrons stashed away in the Jedi temple long before joining the Sith.
Dooku was on par with Anakin who was considered the best form 5 duelist ever. His loss to Anakin aboard the invisible hand was due largely to Anakin pretending to go for a form 4 style, but switching up to form 5 before Dooku could notice that he’d been had. Regardless though Dooku was essentially on par with basically the best form 5 duelist, he easily beats the best form 3 duelist, and he is on par with both Mace Windu and Yoda, both of whom are casually two of the best duelists in Star Wars history. Bane is a powerful duelist, but his best dueling feat is against Kas’im and that is not comparable to holding out against Yoda(even if Dooku was losing). So from a pure dueling standpoint Dooku is superior. But the force is a different story. While Dooku was capable of even putting Yoda on edge with his lightning, Bane was capable of essentially disintegrating people with his, and his knowledge of the force was just so vast. So I’d say that he edges out Dooku here. In all I think that Dooku wins if it’s a duel, but if Bane can find space and outlast Dooku, then he could use his lightning to make this more even.
There, you get it! Hell, the Ka'sim fight even shows what he does when he's up against a superior duelist - just destroy the fucking room so the ceiling crushes him. Granted, we saw Dooku could do some heavy lifting himself, but Bane could surely apply extra pressure. The dude is just too freaking strong.
I think Bane takes this one because he had more knowledge and experience with Sith teachings. Learning from literally some of the best ancient Sith. He’s got a high level of endurance considering the amount of mental and physical anguish he went through during his prime. Not to mention being significantly younger than Dooku. Bane is even more powerful than ROTS Anakin is in his prime and considering Dooku lost to Anakin… And I also have doubts that Palpatine showed Dooku that many tricks as a Sith apprentice considering he had no plans for Dooku to ever become a master. Most of Dooku’s skills are from his Jedi training anyway. However I will give Dooku some props here because I don’t think he’d be demolished that quickly. Dooku is probably the most skilled Makashi duelist of all time and has spent even more time fighting Jedi than Bane has. He is slightly more agile and has had decades longer to hone his (while they might not be as advanced as Bane’s) skills. Plus he is a very cunning man and politician. He knows how to think a lot more critically than Bane and doesn’t let his emotions get the best of him. And while I think eventually Dooku would be worn down, he would probably have a better shot at deflecting or dodging most of Bane’s attacks. It’s definitely an interesting matchup. But Bane is just an absolute power house. He is an insanely good duelist in Djem So (which we’ve seen on-screen and in the EU that Dooku hasn’t exactly done that well against users of that form) and is far more powerful in Sith lighting and other Sith powers than Dooku. Dooku is an old man with less Sith experience. I think Dooku would fair well at the start but unless he can trick Bane into making a mistake, he’s going to eventually start wearing out. Bane is most likely automatically going to be on the offensive and put Dooku into defense. He’s going to have to throw something big at him to get the upper advantage. I would have to dive back in and rewatch the movies, clone wars, novelizations, yoda: dark rendezvous, Darth bane trilogy, Jedi vs Sith, various short stories etc to give a true in depth analysis because I’ll admit it’s been a while since I have done any of that. But if I had to guess I’d say I probably wouldn’t change my answer even if I went back and studied each character.
Dooku. Rule of 2 Sith the newer ones are stronger than their predecessors.
This is just not true. Also dooku was not the master and was never going to be able to overthrow palps
It's the whole point of the Rule of 2. The master finds a strong apprentice. The apprentice gets stronger than the Master. The apprentice kills the master and the cycle repeats. For an apprentice to kill the current sith lord of their time they have to be stronger than previous sith.
My point is dooku was not the master so he was therefore not stronger than palps therefore using the argument of the rule of 2 cannot be applied here. Also I do not think that the rule of two allowed for some infinite power multiplication glitch shit but that’s a different debate entirely
That was the intention from Bane, but surely didn't worked like that. It worked with him and Zannah, but after that, not so much. Sure, Sith as a whole were getting stronger but mostly as power and influence behind the scene, as machinations and advance of their plan within the galactic republic. Direct duels of masters vs apprentices like Bane and Zannah did, to prove for sure who is the strongest, most skilled and knowledgeable, not so much. We don't know how Zannah died, we know Cognus first apprentice had run away, then there is Darth Vectivus who didn't killed his master and wasn't either killed by his apprentice but died peacefully in his bed, with family and friends around. Darth Gravid gets a bit crazy and destroyed a huge part of Sith knowledge before to get killed by his apprentice, but that was a forced duel with neither him or his apprentice in full capacity. Plagueis and Sidious both killed their masters by sneaky means and not a direct duel either, so ignoring Bane wishes. We simply don't know if there was any real progress after Zannah, as individual power and knowledge and skills in the force.
Yeah, nah. That's just not how that works.
>the newer ones are stronger than their predecessors. No, that's not even *slightly* true as a generalization. *Supposing* that the apprentice is able to eventually kill their master, there are still many potential reasons for it: * The master could be killed through a completely random event unrelated to the apprentice. Natural disasters, wars, freak accidents, or antagonizing Jackie Chan or something. *They could use poison or other similar method to weaken their master or outright kill them * They could arrange an ambush, such as using ship-based turbolasers while their master is in transit * They could use a static device like bombs or other traps * They *could* potentially duel their master and overwhelm them outright, but there is no reason that they must. The rule of two, of the apprentice surviving their master, just means (at minimum) that the apprentice was lucky and clever enough to survive (possible having killed) *their* master. They've achieved a very specialized kill, with a method which might not work on or even be relevant to their *master's* master. Dooku could maybe beat one ancient sith but not a different one, and vice versa. It's loosely how you see evolution occuring in species on our own planet--sometimes a completely useless mutation endures simply because the more competitive ones got removed from the gene pool in a landslide. If you're *still* thinking that the apprentice surviving the master means that they're obviously stronger, please consider just how very many clone troopers survived killing their Jedi Generals. Weak + Clever can still overwhelm the Individually Strong, and the Rule of Two would still continue.
"*When your power eclipses mine I will become expendable. This is the Rule of Two: one Master and one apprentice. When you are ready to claim the mantle of Dark Lord as your own, you must do so by eliminating me.*"―Darth Bane: Rule of Two
So what? That doesn't mean that that's exactly how the mantle passed down forever. It just means that those were Bane's *intentions*.
Plus we know that Darth gravid destroyed a lot of sith knowledge and set them back centuries
Dooku takes it mid diff. Bane is good of course but he doesn’t have the feats to match Dooku. Like for example bane *is not* stalemating or getting the better of Yoda under any circumstances.
I mean, in a fair "no orbalisk cheats" matchup I'd say it would've been Bane besting Dooky about 6 (7, tops) times out of 10.
Dooku is wiser and is the better swordsman but Bane is faster, stronger, far more skilled and knowledgeable in the force and is extremely durable. Overall I'd say that Bane beats Dooku 7/10 due to his superior, strength, speed, durablility and knowledge in the force.
Bane would win, he a form 5 specialist that supplements forms 3 and 7. Dooku is a just a well rounded form 2 specialist that would be defeated similar to how Anakin defeated him. Plus Bane is younger and has more force abilities!