Is that like when some dude uses Logic™ to bully you? Like that insufferable guy at the party who thinks he's a genius just because he is eloquent and conceited. He dazzles you with a brilliant argument for something utterly stupid or morally questionable all the while satisfying his own ego by demonstrating his superior argumentation skills. Never mind the fact that everyone with a shred of real wisdom can see right through it. It's a hollow maneuver designed to make them look smart to stupid people and avoid facing the reality that they don't know anything and are only really fooling themselves.
Then one of them will come to this thread demanding evidence and claiming that I setup a strawman. You really can't win with these types.
To me, that's Broism in a nutshell: the thing conceited people espouse as Stoicism or philosophy or logic or rationality when it's really just thinly veiled intellectual bullying.
That’s called sophistry when the goal of entering into an argument is to “win” (whatever the hell that means) said argument. In the ancient world, there were distinct schools of philosophy centered around dialogue and discourse. Ideally, engaging in a discourse or argument was a means of furthering ideas, education or ascertaining truth. The goal wasn’t to “win” but sophists who were schooled in rhetoric and persuasion made this their aims in many cases. (You may be engaging in a logical fallacy of some sorts but I’m certain someone could provide another way to dispute such claims without citing a logical fallacy.)
I wouldn't say there are a lot of negatives unless you misunderstand or misuse the teachings. The two biggest that come to mind are thinking you have to be some emotionless stone man. You are allowed to feel the full range of human emotions but stoicism teaches you how to keep them in check so as to not act out on them purely because of how you are feeling. The second is the concept of Memento Mori as it relates to others. Remember, Stoicism is for you, not for anyone else. Please don't try consoling others who are grieving by telling them that they shouldn't be sad because we are all mortal and could die at any moment so live every day like it's your last.
Ahhh yes, the risk of forcing stoicism on others who may not benefit from it like we'd hope is a definite possibility 😅
I learned this one the hard way.
I try to impart some concepts from Stoicism that have been a blessing in my life to my girlfriend.
When she worries I try to explain to her that we spend so much time worrying about things that might not even happen and she tells me that not everybody can stop themselves from worrying. I know it isn't easy because I used to worry until I was physically sick.
She is having a problem with a co-worker and I tried to show her that she doesn't value this person or their opinion so there is no reason to let herself be offended by them.
I have found that Stoicism has made a difference in my life and I want to casually share it with the ones that I love but I have to remember that not everyone responds the same.
But by applying stoicism, we then see that (a) that’s what was meant to happen, for whatever reason, and (b) it’s okay because their reaction is something we cannot control. So in the end, it’s not a negative.
PS: I’m far from being a good practitioner of stoicism. I’m just learning and thought it was interesting how this seemingly negative thing is also not negative when we apply stoicism. I hope I’m right?
It’s a journey. Many starting on the stoic path are either too hard on themselves or too rigid in their interpretation of the philosophy. As a personal philosophy it evolves with your experiences.
Also you may find that people in your environment may resent seeing a change in your attitudes and reactions which is a good opportunity to practice the core principles.
Finding the peace in solitude and not wanting to deal with people if I don’t have too. I feel I’ve become perfectly fine not networking and coming up on a job change in a small town makes those connections you could use tough without them
"If you do it properly, there are no negatives."
Which is sort of a nice way of saying there are a lot of pitfalls and misconceptions you can get trapped in.
It's kind of like a knife, if you hold it by the proper handle and use it for what it's intended for, it's a useful tool.
But it can't do everything and if you hold it by the wrong end or you run around with it or do something haphazardly with it, you could injure yourself.
You don’t “become” a Stoic. There’s no membership card. Partially it’s something you practice, and it’s difficult practice. Partially it’s a view of yourself and the universe - and the interconnectedness of everything, ever spurred on by Providence.
You'll transition from being annoyed that someone's an asshole to infuriated that they're being a hyprocritical asshole prior to accepting that both are beyond your control or their apparent reason.
A while ago I was working for a client who has a bit of Schizophrenia and a heavy dose of OCB.
I was building yet another fence section for him, following the contours of the land as one does.
Now, this guy plays Minecraft 24/7 and it really bothered him that the fence wasn't blocky and far above the sloping ground.
He yelled in my face for over a minute and threatened to not pay me. I remained very calm and just let him walk away before starting over on the fence.
Later that day my lack of focus led me to run my left thumb through the table saw. I wrapped it and kept working.
I managed to remain calm and now I can't feel my thumb but in some way it is a reminder of me handling the situation much better than I would have when I was younger.
Stoicism can cool passions and burden you with a stiff upper lip, demanding a high price for inner peace.
Sometimes you just need to be out of control. Hedonism.
It's always difficult to find the best view about the layers of consciences. Your needs need to be met and at the same time you have to have the philosophy about all aspects around that. Visions about welfare, outlook on life etc are always stoic but no need to overdo. Like experiments are great but not if the costs are higher then the results
What do you mean by negative? Negative by stoic standards? Negative for you? For your friends or "friends"?
Negative in short-term situations?
Anyway, it largely depends on how much your behaviour changes when you try to follow stoic philosophy.
Bigger the change, bigger friction.
If you were, for example, people pleaser and suddenly stop, it may be seen as you become rude. But, is it negative?
Socrates would allow people to swear even harm him as its the body not the mind/soul harmed. For me day to day I would lose dignity and sometimes respect from others.
When you understand stoicism, you'll understand that 'negatives' are fugazzi.
They don't exist, they're not real. They're cooked up by the untrained mind.
It’s very easy to misinterpret it since it’s a popular philosophy and like most begginers who practice philosophy is easy to loose your humbleness and assume that you “know everything and that other people are stupid”, none of those are directly results of stoicism tho just people who learn it superficially and spread their bad take on it.
From how I view stoicism (or any philosophy for that matter) is that, if you have something about it that you view as negative, it may not be the philosophy for you
You follow the teachings of a philosophy because it betters your life. Stoicism for me taught me the importance of controlling my emotions and focusing on what I can directly control. If those things (or any teaching of stoicism) have a negative impact on your life, it may not be for you. Nihilism teaches that life has no meaning, and that can be freeing for those that follow it because it gives them the knowledge that because life has no meaning, they can give it meaning. However, if nihilism instills a sense of dread or anxiety because of its teachings, it may not be for you
If a philosophy makes you uncomfortable, you should look to either change philosophies or (what I did) adapt to live like a practitioner until your life becomes more comfortable or even better as a result of said practices
One thing I've noticed is social isolation, as you grow, you start to defer from the masses in your thinking and your behavior subconsciously and people don't like people who are different. Also as your practice, you tend to enjoy your own company more and feel lonely around people......from my perspective though, I'm still a work in progress btw
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For me, was the nice new shiny car I bought in 2021 that I'm paying $760 per month for + it drinks so much petrol im paying around $400 month hydrating it.
Empty enthusiasm..
Hey, sorry, this is irrelevant to your question but is your name Suchit? Assuming from your username. I find it so fascinating because my name is Sachit and I've never met someone who has the same name (or atleast similar) to me.
I saw a long time ago a great Dutch philosopher that lived as a stoic
Here is the link for the people that are interested in it: https://youtu.be/8zySSpcqOww?si=bwAMpx97nX_hiqC8
No, they have better control over their emotions and feelings. People think being stoic means being emotionless but it's just having a better control over our emotions. Also, stoics disregard anything that is out of their control. For example- What's the point of being angry/upset about a tree falling on your car. It is not something that was under your control so no point being emotional about it. Just move on
No. While Stoics do accept the uncontrollable, we do have an emphasis on the importance of action. When we feel emotions, we understand that it may lead us to irrational decisions - for example, we should not act under anger, or we may regret those actions.
I would suggest reading more about Stoicism through credible sources. You can either learn from the Modern Stoics like Massimo Pigliucci, or from their teachers - the Ancient Stoics like Epictetus and Seneca. I was introduced to Stoicism by Pigliucci’a book How To Be A Stoic. From there, I read Discourses by Epictetus.
I just briefly skimmed this article, but I think it may suit you: https://the-philosophers-shirt.com/blogs/philosophical-dictionary/common-misconceptions-of-stoicism-and-absurdism
Nope.
Our wise person feels their emotions but isn't ruled by them.
The wise person who doesn't even feel emotions, according to Seneca, would be an Epicurean.
No, the goal is to have the emotions properly ordered and guided by reason.
A classic analogy is the chariot. The horses are the emotions. Directed where to go and how to respond by the charioteer (reason), they get the chariot safely to the destination. If the charioteer loses control, they run wild and destroy the chariot.
Great question, I don't know why you're getting downvoted. For all the comments saying there is no down side to stoicism, you may be missing the point.
I can see that. People have a hard time understanding how another person can be calm in a bad situation.
I find that most people think the more extreme their emotions are the more it affects the outcome of a situation.
The Stoics did however teach us to treat all people with love and respect out of our common humanity.
The possibility of misinterpreting or misusing stoicism.
Have you heard of Broism bro?
Is that like when some dude uses Logic™ to bully you? Like that insufferable guy at the party who thinks he's a genius just because he is eloquent and conceited. He dazzles you with a brilliant argument for something utterly stupid or morally questionable all the while satisfying his own ego by demonstrating his superior argumentation skills. Never mind the fact that everyone with a shred of real wisdom can see right through it. It's a hollow maneuver designed to make them look smart to stupid people and avoid facing the reality that they don't know anything and are only really fooling themselves. Then one of them will come to this thread demanding evidence and claiming that I setup a strawman. You really can't win with these types. To me, that's Broism in a nutshell: the thing conceited people espouse as Stoicism or philosophy or logic or rationality when it's really just thinly veiled intellectual bullying.
Ah a pattern in people you find annoying. "Suck it up pansy" - Broiticus 3:54 🙏
That’s called sophistry when the goal of entering into an argument is to “win” (whatever the hell that means) said argument. In the ancient world, there were distinct schools of philosophy centered around dialogue and discourse. Ideally, engaging in a discourse or argument was a means of furthering ideas, education or ascertaining truth. The goal wasn’t to “win” but sophists who were schooled in rhetoric and persuasion made this their aims in many cases. (You may be engaging in a logical fallacy of some sorts but I’m certain someone could provide another way to dispute such claims without citing a logical fallacy.)
Dumb 🤣
You don’t care about the same things your boss expects you to care about.
Yep
I don’t think that’s a side effect of stoicism 😅
sometimes you aren't stoic enough. end of list.
Accurate
this hurts
eh, you're only human. making progress is the goal.
yup. that's part of the process.
I wouldn't say there are a lot of negatives unless you misunderstand or misuse the teachings. The two biggest that come to mind are thinking you have to be some emotionless stone man. You are allowed to feel the full range of human emotions but stoicism teaches you how to keep them in check so as to not act out on them purely because of how you are feeling. The second is the concept of Memento Mori as it relates to others. Remember, Stoicism is for you, not for anyone else. Please don't try consoling others who are grieving by telling them that they shouldn't be sad because we are all mortal and could die at any moment so live every day like it's your last.
Perfectly put!
Memento Mori baby! 🖤
Ahhh yes, the risk of forcing stoicism on others who may not benefit from it like we'd hope is a definite possibility 😅 I learned this one the hard way.
I try to impart some concepts from Stoicism that have been a blessing in my life to my girlfriend. When she worries I try to explain to her that we spend so much time worrying about things that might not even happen and she tells me that not everybody can stop themselves from worrying. I know it isn't easy because I used to worry until I was physically sick. She is having a problem with a co-worker and I tried to show her that she doesn't value this person or their opinion so there is no reason to let herself be offended by them. I have found that Stoicism has made a difference in my life and I want to casually share it with the ones that I love but I have to remember that not everyone responds the same.
It's tough to figure out how to blame someone else for how you feel.
Ha I like this one - the downside is that you have to actually take responsibility for your life 😁
There are no negatives if you learn the philosophy in total and apply it properly.
I agree with this. Check out the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/s/dSNBKedQ3D), OP.
Some people may not be able to relate to your reactions to things (or the lack thereof).
But by applying stoicism, we then see that (a) that’s what was meant to happen, for whatever reason, and (b) it’s okay because their reaction is something we cannot control. So in the end, it’s not a negative. PS: I’m far from being a good practitioner of stoicism. I’m just learning and thought it was interesting how this seemingly negative thing is also not negative when we apply stoicism. I hope I’m right?
You become so powerful that everyone else looks as interesting as an ant
wow could you expand on this point?
No
But ants are really interesting
It’s a journey. Many starting on the stoic path are either too hard on themselves or too rigid in their interpretation of the philosophy. As a personal philosophy it evolves with your experiences. Also you may find that people in your environment may resent seeing a change in your attitudes and reactions which is a good opportunity to practice the core principles.
Finding the peace in solitude and not wanting to deal with people if I don’t have too. I feel I’ve become perfectly fine not networking and coming up on a job change in a small town makes those connections you could use tough without them
"If you do it properly, there are no negatives." Which is sort of a nice way of saying there are a lot of pitfalls and misconceptions you can get trapped in. It's kind of like a knife, if you hold it by the proper handle and use it for what it's intended for, it's a useful tool. But it can't do everything and if you hold it by the wrong end or you run around with it or do something haphazardly with it, you could injure yourself.
You don’t “become” a Stoic. There’s no membership card. Partially it’s something you practice, and it’s difficult practice. Partially it’s a view of yourself and the universe - and the interconnectedness of everything, ever spurred on by Providence.
Self blame. That is usually good but it can get out of hand if you don't stay in touch with your intuition
Yeah and too much thinking about ancient rome
I mean, is there really such a thing?
You'll transition from being annoyed that someone's an asshole to infuriated that they're being a hyprocritical asshole prior to accepting that both are beyond your control or their apparent reason.
A while ago I was working for a client who has a bit of Schizophrenia and a heavy dose of OCB. I was building yet another fence section for him, following the contours of the land as one does. Now, this guy plays Minecraft 24/7 and it really bothered him that the fence wasn't blocky and far above the sloping ground. He yelled in my face for over a minute and threatened to not pay me. I remained very calm and just let him walk away before starting over on the fence. Later that day my lack of focus led me to run my left thumb through the table saw. I wrapped it and kept working. I managed to remain calm and now I can't feel my thumb but in some way it is a reminder of me handling the situation much better than I would have when I was younger.
Stoicism can cool passions and burden you with a stiff upper lip, demanding a high price for inner peace. Sometimes you just need to be out of control. Hedonism.
It's always difficult to find the best view about the layers of consciences. Your needs need to be met and at the same time you have to have the philosophy about all aspects around that. Visions about welfare, outlook on life etc are always stoic but no need to overdo. Like experiments are great but not if the costs are higher then the results
What do you mean by negative? Negative by stoic standards? Negative for you? For your friends or "friends"? Negative in short-term situations? Anyway, it largely depends on how much your behaviour changes when you try to follow stoic philosophy. Bigger the change, bigger friction. If you were, for example, people pleaser and suddenly stop, it may be seen as you become rude. But, is it negative?
Dealing with non stoics during a catastrophic event can be difficult.
Socrates would allow people to swear even harm him as its the body not the mind/soul harmed. For me day to day I would lose dignity and sometimes respect from others.
When you understand stoicism, you'll understand that 'negatives' are fugazzi. They don't exist, they're not real. They're cooked up by the untrained mind.
It’s very easy to misinterpret it since it’s a popular philosophy and like most begginers who practice philosophy is easy to loose your humbleness and assume that you “know everything and that other people are stupid”, none of those are directly results of stoicism tho just people who learn it superficially and spread their bad take on it.
From how I view stoicism (or any philosophy for that matter) is that, if you have something about it that you view as negative, it may not be the philosophy for you You follow the teachings of a philosophy because it betters your life. Stoicism for me taught me the importance of controlling my emotions and focusing on what I can directly control. If those things (or any teaching of stoicism) have a negative impact on your life, it may not be for you. Nihilism teaches that life has no meaning, and that can be freeing for those that follow it because it gives them the knowledge that because life has no meaning, they can give it meaning. However, if nihilism instills a sense of dread or anxiety because of its teachings, it may not be for you If a philosophy makes you uncomfortable, you should look to either change philosophies or (what I did) adapt to live like a practitioner until your life becomes more comfortable or even better as a result of said practices
You may lose interest in the things you were once fond of prior to practicing the philosophy.
One thing I've noticed is social isolation, as you grow, you start to defer from the masses in your thinking and your behavior subconsciously and people don't like people who are different. Also as your practice, you tend to enjoy your own company more and feel lonely around people......from my perspective though, I'm still a work in progress btw
Hi, welcome to the subreddit. Please make sure that you check out [the FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/guide), where you will find answers for many common questions, like ["What is Stoicism; why study it?"](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/intro_faq), or ["What are some Stoic practices and exercises?"](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/exercises), or ["What is the goal in life, and how do I find meaning?"](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/big), to name just a few. You can also find information about frequently discussed topics, like [flaws in Stoicism](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/fdt#wiki_flaws_in_stoicism), [Stoicism and politics](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/fdt#wiki_what_does_stoicism_say_about_politics.3F), [sex and relationships](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/fdt#wiki_sex), and [virtue as the only good](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/fdt#wiki_why_is_virtue_the_only_good.3F), for a few examples. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Stoicism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
For me, was the nice new shiny car I bought in 2021 that I'm paying $760 per month for + it drinks so much petrol im paying around $400 month hydrating it. Empty enthusiasm..
Hey, sorry, this is irrelevant to your question but is your name Suchit? Assuming from your username. I find it so fascinating because my name is Sachit and I've never met someone who has the same name (or atleast similar) to me.
"Suchit" is a common name in India. Where are you from?
I'm from south India, specifically Tamil Nadu
Maybe not so common in the South then.🙄
Well, it's a lot of work.
prolly living like a robot?
you are not stoic if your living like a robot
Getting out of it involuntary, not being stoic enough as they say.
Believe destiny is predetermined
There isn’t really a downside. The main problem is misunderstanding and doing it wrong.
you can be labelled
I saw a long time ago a great Dutch philosopher that lived as a stoic Here is the link for the people that are interested in it: https://youtu.be/8zySSpcqOww?si=bwAMpx97nX_hiqC8
You will be confronted by non stoics.
Thank you all who participated in the discussion.🙌🙂
You will be a persona non grata to wide swaths of humanity (which is okay)
Are Stoic emotionless?
No, they have better control over their emotions and feelings. People think being stoic means being emotionless but it's just having a better control over our emotions. Also, stoics disregard anything that is out of their control. For example- What's the point of being angry/upset about a tree falling on your car. It is not something that was under your control so no point being emotional about it. Just move on
I mean, I'm gonna be angry about how much money i'll have to spend on a new car.
No. While Stoics do accept the uncontrollable, we do have an emphasis on the importance of action. When we feel emotions, we understand that it may lead us to irrational decisions - for example, we should not act under anger, or we may regret those actions. I would suggest reading more about Stoicism through credible sources. You can either learn from the Modern Stoics like Massimo Pigliucci, or from their teachers - the Ancient Stoics like Epictetus and Seneca. I was introduced to Stoicism by Pigliucci’a book How To Be A Stoic. From there, I read Discourses by Epictetus. I just briefly skimmed this article, but I think it may suit you: https://the-philosophers-shirt.com/blogs/philosophical-dictionary/common-misconceptions-of-stoicism-and-absurdism
Nope. Our wise person feels their emotions but isn't ruled by them. The wise person who doesn't even feel emotions, according to Seneca, would be an Epicurean.
No, the goal is to have the emotions properly ordered and guided by reason. A classic analogy is the chariot. The horses are the emotions. Directed where to go and how to respond by the charioteer (reason), they get the chariot safely to the destination. If the charioteer loses control, they run wild and destroy the chariot.
lol, no. i have the full range of human emotions, i assure you. ...of course, that *is* what an automaton trying to fit in would say....
Consider checking out the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/s/dSNBKedQ3D). It’s covered there as well.
Great question, I don't know why you're getting downvoted. For all the comments saying there is no down side to stoicism, you may be missing the point.
Other people think you're cold and heartless
I can see that. People have a hard time understanding how another person can be calm in a bad situation. I find that most people think the more extreme their emotions are the more it affects the outcome of a situation. The Stoics did however teach us to treat all people with love and respect out of our common humanity.