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Moash is not an extension of Odium. He lacks his emotions and is just a dipshit asshole. He also says the sun revolves around Roshar. While Navani and scholars mentions its the reverse.
Is Moash not a type of fused now ? Or am I misunderstanding the extension of Odium via corrupted spren ?
I always assumed the Fused being congnitive shadows of ancient singers he would control them to a point
You’re correct that the fused are cognitive shadows that take over the bodies of singers. Odium has shown no ability to directly control the fused to any capability and actually told Dalinar he cannot do that when setting the terms for the duel.
Moash is not a fused he’s a human who gave his emotions away to maybe one of the unmade. He’s still human. He calls Kaladin a force of nature and that nobody can kill him because Moash has put Kaladin on a pedestal that Kaladin needs to fall either to odium or to kill himself so that Moash will be correct in that all humans suck.
My understanding was that Odium was capable of taking emotions away. Capable of taking his pain in a sense because Moash is conflicted in his path, due to his guilt and trauma. Odium took advantage of that in order to have Moash be his temporary champion.
He was hoping to do the same to Dalinar because of his guilt and trauma as well.
Moash isn't an asshole. Like everyone else, he was broken. Whereas Kaladin and Shallan said the first oath and accepted the things they had done wrong, Moash said it wasn't his fault. Each order may have different Ideals, but each Ideal applies to every Order.
Once you murder your friend and try and try and get your other friend to commit suicide you’re an asshole.
Everyone is broken. The difference between Moash and the knights radiant is that Moash blames everyone else, blames society, blames humanity for what he went through and for his actions while the others take ownership of their actions and are trying to improve.
Moash wants to drag others down to prove they’re not better than him.
I would argue that everyone is broken, and the assholes make it other people’s problems while good people use their brokenness to become better.
So yeah, Moash is an asshole, but it’s because he is trying to avoid responsibility.
You forget Kaladin almost succumbed to Odium. Dalinar was influenced by Odium for decades, Dalinar was seconds away from killing his own brother. Dalinar razed an entire city because the thrill pushed him to mistakenly kill his wife.
Moash is no worse or better than Dalinar. The difference is that he fell in a new era of Radiants. Yes, Moash is a villain but an asshole? No.
Even some of the Fused weren't past redemption.
Neither is Moash, but I hope Sanderson doesn't give him a redemption arc.
Yeah but Kaladin didn’t succumb in the end, and chose to self reflect and swear oaths to be better.
Dalinar chose to take the next step, and is now a better man.
Were they both ass holes in the past, absolutely. It just proves my point. Moash is an asshole and still is because he refuses to take control of his own life and take responsibility for his actions.
Kaladin was never an asshole he was a wretch.
You could make an argument that Dalinar was an asshole but I see him as being influenced by the thrill as every Alethi was.
Calling them assholes is a surface level understanding of what what and who they are.
They are lost in their own passions, something Odium wants them to give to him.
I disagree. I think everyone is an asshole at some point. The way Kaladin treated lighteyes? The way he treated Elokar in particular. The reason many don’t want to call him an asshole is because we see how much pain he went through, and we feel it’s justified. But he’s still belligerent and rude, and frankly an asshole.
Kaladin did not end up succumbing to odium. Dainar’s whole thing in Oathbringer is accepting that while the thrill was there it was his decision every time. It may have goaded him but he was the one that chose.
Moash just gave in and says it’s everyone’s fault but his.
And I never said Moash isn’t past redemption, or that the fused are assholes. Many of the fused as we’ve seen are good, just trying to do the best they can in a war between gods.
No one is past redemption, and everyone can shift from an asshole to a good person. Typically, by taking the next step.
That's more an epic fantasy thing as a whole since it has a lot of "good vs evil" struggles. Hard to say "we should overthrow the current system" when it's a literal devil trying to do that, and extreme struggles tend to favor stronger governments. Reform makes more sense in these situations, and we do see some of that throughout the Cosmere. Particularly Jasnah in SLA.
But also Mistborn is 100% a revolution, and you could argue TSM is too.
The revolution is Mistborn was incomplete and rendered moot after the ascension. The goals of that revolution were never accomplished. Odium isn't the devil. He is emotion made manifest. The reforms of Jasnah are ephemeral and not really stated or seen yet, so I'm not holding out hope. Reform only works on unbroken systems. The systems on Roshar are broken.
Mate, I believe I share your political ideology, but you're not doing great with the Odium apologetics. Reform is actually better than revolutionizing an entire political system during a war against the immortal army of the god of hatred. Sure, reform doesn't fix all problems, nor is it gonna solve the Alethi caste system, but it surely is better than nothing, and orders of magnitude better than political destabilization during the most important war in centuries.
Because at different times in the booke I see many characters act like Moash. I understand what he's been through and why he is the way he is.
I don't like him as a character, but I don't see him as an asshole.
Crazy how none of those characters try torment a friend into suicide, huh? The fused show compassion for their own. Moash tries to make his best friend suffer so much he wants to die.
I can't imagine any justification for moash not being a cunt that doesn't involve you being a fifteen year old edgelord, and I'm sorry for that.
I would argue that Moash tries to convince Kaladin to kill himself in a misguided belief that it is better that Kaladin kill himself than fall to Odium. I believe he expressed this somewhere in the interludes of RoW, where he says that he wouldn’t want Odium to have control of him. In his mind, he is doing Kaladin a favour/blessing. Like, putting down a dog you love instead of seeing it suffer.
He is wrong. But this is the weird, contorted manifestation of his love for Kaladin, and probably, if it comes, a sign of his ability to be redeemed.
The positive opposite to Moash’s position is Adolin, who encouraged Kaladin out of his depression after the death of Elhokar and constantly checked on him through RoW till they parted.
In his interlude in RoW (I-4. Vyre), he has this exchange with Odium:
“‘I would claim this one, as I have claimed you,’ Odium said. And Vyre would see him dead first. A mercy.”
Before this, he does acknowledge that Kaladin has two options: give in to Odium or kill himself. But he also muses that Kaladin would not accept the first, so it would be better for Kaladin to die.
Moash wants Kaladin to give up so he can join him.
Once Kaladin gives up, he is susceptible to Odium's influence. Moash is in permanent wretch mode.
Read Oathbringer chaper 74 swiftspren. Shallan is near the Heart of the Revel Cultists. She hears the voices to tell her to surrender, to give in, to accept the freedom of Odium.
Hearing the voices to give in does not equate to what moash did, killing an old friend and telling the man who gave him everything to kill himself or turn into a slave. Moash is just a POS, no matter how you spin it.
You understand that people often have reasons for being an asshole, right?
Like if a dude was abused his whole life and ends up as a dick, you kind of get it.
Just because someone is justifiably an asshole doesn't mean that when they're actions align with that of an asshole, it means they're not being one.
Ignoring his bigger sins but you don't consider even constant antagonization as an asshole trait?
Also, Wit is a pretty big asshole.
Lastly, I actually love assholes and usually get along well with them, but in general we use the term as someone who is very frank and rude. And Moash definitely fits the standard definition of that.
Final last one: I didn't mean I love assholes like that. Yall know what I mean.
To be fair I think a lot of Moash's existence is to allow readers to feel better about liking Dalinar. Because sure it's been a long time since and we know he's repented, but Dalinar still did terrible things, even while becoming an honorable man. Moash did comparatively not as bad things as Dalinar, but his attitude to the world and how he tries to be better is so twisted and tainted or lacking that we don't like Moash and so can't dismiss his crimes as easily. So I'd say Moash is designed and destined to be an asshole.
Moash is the single most despicable character in the entire series. Not even Odium is, because at least he’s evil by design.
This man has literally tried beyond measure to get his suicidal friend to finally kill himself.
All of them are broken, you don’t get to just be the worst piece of shit because life wasn’t great for you. He didn’t own up to any of his mistakes. Always this or that’s fault, never took responsibility for any of his misdeeds.
Moash is ABSOLUTELY an asshole. He may have had some righteousness to his cause, especially when it was first introduced on a surface level. At this point in his arc, he knows he's wrong and has been aware of it since the moment he gave his pain to Odium. That's exactly the monkey's paw that the BBO(dium)G had intended; in giving away his pain he gave away ALL emotion because happiness cannot exist inside a vacuume. And since that decision he has done nothing but double-down at every opportunity. Moash isn't an asshole because he failed to realize his oaths. He's an asshole because, like everyone else who is an asshole, he cannot accept his mistakes and then proceeds to make it everyone else's problem.
Kaladin and Moash are see-saws. Taravangian and Dalinar are see-saws.
I don't think Kaladin can become Honor because that kicks Dalinar off of his seat.
I fully expect Dalinar to become Honor reforged. With Sanderson, it's rarely about the what, but the how. The obvious choice is still beautiful because of the build up. Journey before Destination.
I’ve always disliked the idea that our POV characters take up the shard Honor, since it smells so much like the sanderlanch of mistborn era 1, but this comment makes me like the idea.
It also gave me another: what if Dalinar ascends to honor and somehow shifts the shards intent away from honor without combining it with another shard? Would that be possible? Could a bondsmith do that?
I'm nearly 100% convinced that Dalinar will become Honor, but even more convinced that it'll happen in a way that I don't expect.
Right now, I'm leaning towards something like refusing to fight altogether, because the honorable thing to do is to recognize the Fused as honorable equals. Or maybe he replaces Taln. I don't know. But I'm sure it'll be epic.
Mistborn Era 2, TLM specifically >!There are comments about Harmony shifting to become Discord and the way his "shadow self" is mentioned makes me feel like a Shard's intent changing is very possible. Unless it has something to do with the conflicting nature of the two shards he holds but I would think the former!<
Incredible point! It hope something like that happens. I would love to see Dalinar killing Taravangian and taking odium, but shifting its intent to be true Passion, Including love and compassion
>!that would be an interesting turn of events. Especially since Dalinar seems to be less passionate than he once was since before the events of the Rift. Still possible though!<
It’s like an avalanche of reveals at the end of the book. Basically reveal after reveal after reveal that’s an iconic part of the way Sanderson writes.
Well, if dally loses the duel and succumbs to odium, he'd lose his seat either way. I definitely think it's dalinar or kal taking up honor on this book though. I guess dalinar could reforge honor and make Kal a herald or something or have Kal refuse it because he wants to die someday.
Mistborn below.
>!I didn't expect Saz. It was set up for Kel or Vin. While I'm OK, and actually excited for Dalinar to he Honor, I don't think that's where we're heading, for the same reason that Raize isn't Odium. We know dallinar. We saw his story for 5+ books. Continuing him on, instead of letting him end could be argued as his punishment and would work, but it's expected, so we need someone like Tar or Sazes to come in and change the flow to allow for new ideas and concepts. I think we're more likely to see Honor return as something new. My top guess, that 100% will be wrong is the storm father. Bring back a version of tanavast but changed. Then we see how a concept rules and changes. Or it could be baby Gav, and have him grow up with the powers of a God. How does it change you from childhood? Maybe it's going to be no one at all. Honor isn't reformed in a person/sentience - instead they put it together and guard the shard with no one and nothing guiding it. How would that work?!<
I get it. I don't fully disagree.
But I am adamant that Dalinar's story has to end by *uniting them*. To me, the only union that makes sense is uniting the fragments of Honor.
What if he Unites them, but isn't them. I think Honor will be a Shard with no vessel. [I fully explain why here](https://old.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/1dsfeas/spoilers_full_cosmere_i_have_a_new_theory_about/?) but the basics of it, is that it resolves Dallinar story, he united them, but it gives new content and areas to explore, nothing is guiding the shard, we see what Adonalsiums Honor truly was - for the same reason we had to have Rayse die, to get a new villain instead of telling a story we had already told.
I understand. There's obviously room for me to be wrong. But I don't see it. I think it would undermine the see-saw of the first four books. That's just my opinion though!
Well, the difference is that I think Navani has made incredible progress towards Uniting Them.
I'm almost positive that book 5 ends with Parshendi and Humans united against the forces of Odium. And Honor isn't dead so long as he lives in the hearts of Men.
I know lots of people expect some kind of massive, apocalyptic type of cliff hanger for between the two series, but I just don't see it. Brandon likes to *conclude* his series, even when there's more to come (see Mistborn). I expect him to resolve our stories in generally satisfying (if not downright happy) endings, while leaving it obvious where the new conflicts will manifest from (again, see Mistborn).
I think Brandon has had Dalinar taking up that Shard since he was a young man. Kaladin absolutely qualifies as a potential Vessel, but I still think it’s Dalinar.
I’ve seen lots of people predict Kaladin will die in Book 5, but I think he will live out his days after this war and have a happy ending.
I think it would be pretty awful to see him get through his darkest moments just to die in book 5. All that character work and build up. Doesn’t make any sense to me. I would also be absolutely devastated.
It would be the ultimate test of Kaladin’s character arc. Especially if it’s not like just a random death but Syl sacrificing herself, like to save the Stormfather or something.
I see Dalinar following in the path of Sazed and picking up both Honor and Odium, becoming Unity. Had this in mind ever since his anime powerup moment at the end of Oathbringer.
I disagree. Kaladin’s story is about survival and surviving to protect others. The honor chasm and his fall from Urithiru are about him turning his back on death. Even if in that moment he wants to die.
Im no fan of the Kaladin becomes Honor Theory. During my current reread of OB, I found a throwaway line that just made my stomach drop. There was a conversation between Moash and an old caravan guard. The guard said “That makes as much sense as the storming Stormfather playing the flute, boy."
I recently got thru the same part of my reread and also thought to myself “wow, what relevance does this have”. wits flute and the stormfather and… and… agh
You caught that too! Yeah when I heard that in the audiobook on a relisten I just had to take a minute to process. Kaladin’s flute hobby is gonna be important in the next book according to the previews, and with this line… yeah
That's quite an interesting point. The harmonies would have to play into the overall story at some point.
Since both Kaladin and Daliner have a form of darkness about them they could potentially hold both aspects of Honor/Odium ?
Is that the point you're trying to make ?
I can't really go further into detail without Mistborn Era 2 spoilers: >!Sazed took up both the shards of Ruin and Preservation and merged them into a new shard called Harmony. He was able to do this because he was equally Connected to each by virtue of his nature to Preserve as a keeper of lore and later when he cracked and gave up hope, embracing Ruin. A potential Vessel has to have a strong Connection to a shard for it to work out.!<
Kaladin is Connected to both Odium and Honor by his dual nature of the surgeon and the soldier. Lirin and Moash are his foils, showing a fully Honor and fully Odium individual. Kaladin is a mix. He struggles with which identity defines him early on, but he is moving toward reconciliation with a HUGE step at the end of RoW.
People who are well Connected and are good candidates to inherent shards, imo, are:
Honor: Lirin
Cultivation: Lift
Odium: Moash
H/C: Navani
H/O: Kaladin
C/O: none come to mind
H/O/C: Dalinar
I would disagree on who you are comparing Lirin to. All of the pacifistic characters in the story I think are more closely tied to Cultivation, who has turned her followers away from war (Horneaters look down on soldiers, the Shin think warriors are the lowest of people), while Lirin is much the same. Honor's followers like Dalinar universally take up arms again almost immediately against Odium's force and resume the conflict.
While I think you raise good points, Honor seems to inherently have (or have had) soldierly qualities, and Lirin’s obstinate devotion to peace under any circumstances basically conflicts with everything we know about Honor’s legacy. For example, the Stormfather is quite willing to hurt people when necessary, and so are the Knights Radiant. I would say that maybe Honor has changed, and that’s reflected in Lirin’s attitudes, except Shards can’t change - it’s the one thing they’re incapable of. If Lirin became Honor, he’d have to give up the thing that is at the very core of his personality - his pacifism. While it’s possible for a person to hold a Shards that conflicts with their personality, the farther apart they are, the worse the result will be for the bearer (as evidenced by Ati’s fall - and he wasn’t as different from Ruin as Lirin is from Honor).
I think it’s a very interesting theory and I think there’s probably a good reason Lirin is the way he is that we are not currently aware of, but I don’t think he has enough in common with Honor to be directly representative of him in any way.
I've recently reread the books and it seems like Kaladin's emotions and how often he acts on them, is emphasized more than other characters. If he doesn't become an Aspect of Honor, or even of Odium, I imagine he will be one of the first to use Warlight.
Odium is typically red, or a deep violet
Cultivation is green
Honor is a soft blue
We see this when Navani tests the various lights through a prism. These bands of colors are larger than the others.
Yellow doesn’t come up, which is very interesting.
I need to correct myself. Venli says his eyes have a yellow-red color.
Which makes me think it’s probably Odiums corruption, maybe mixed somehow with storm light.
Yep. I’m also using artistic license to use yellow as gold. Which I think we see often in idioms visions. “Warmth” and all of that. However I’m on the fence with my own theory 😂 I ended up researching for a bit and there is no specific mention of yellow, yet. Blue and red and white and black and green, but that’s all (except the AV light which is golds opposite).
So this just gave me a thought. I've had a few cocktails so forgive me. Could the Cosmere loosely follow the laws of thermodynamics? That may be the wrong choice but... It seems like the shards want to reconnect... Will they pair and then pair again, and again after that?
Some of them, perhaps? Certainly not all. The merger that has happened was planned by a vessel as a means to carry out his Intent as best he could, so you could say that is shard-driven.
The strongest evidence of a merger in stormlight seems plotted by Cultivation, who seeks to improve, so there is another.
Dominion and Devotion are pseudo-mixed and seem to compliment one another.
But Autonomy and Odium expressly do not want to combine.
Heh, we get a >!mistborn era 1 ending 2.0!<
Dalinar gets Honor, fights and kills Odium, but dies in the process. Kaladin takes both shards at once, melding them into War.
It's always seemed kinda weird to me that this isn't the main prevailing theory, like kaladin is basically already the physical embodiment of honor lol
Yeah pretty much what I was trying to get across,
I always thought that Daliner would become the new Talan and take up the new oath pact in whatever form it takes as penance for basically being a brutal war criminal most of his life.
I think Kaladin dies. He talks all the time about how he always seems to live when the people he is trying to protect die. I think he breaks that streak.
Adolin is going to become Honor. Twice he has skidded away from the duties that would be thrust upon him, first to be high prince, then king.
It's all a setup, third time is the charm.
This is an interesting theory
I always thought he was going to become a new type of radiant or there as close as he can get with the Maya /Deadeye situation.
But that could be him "restoring Honor" ? And allowing the Deadeye to regain some of her life force ?
I do like this one
Just thinking of this further, when Rysn takes up the Dawnshard, the sleepless tells her she will never be able to bond a spren.
I think we’re onto something here
The theory that has stuck with me the most, is that Dalanar will reform the oath pact, and kaladin will be the one to hold it together to get rid of the fused
I'd say he is a candidate to take up Honor, but I don't see that in his character arc. From the beginning, he's been trying to reconcile his desire to be the protector or the healer. I see his future resolving that dichotomy.
I think it's actually really likely that Kaladin is going to become Honor, even more likely than Dalinar.
Kaladin has been called "Son of Tanavast" by the Stormfather, had that weird orange-yellow energy thing even sans-stormlight, and Hesina's background is very obfuscated but probably important. I don't think it's coincidence that both of her children were going to become Radiants. Lots of people are "Sons of Honor" as that's a lot like saying that we're "children of god" or something. Kaladin is the only one with a link like that to the previous holder of the shard, and so my personal theory is that he is going to take up the shard, most likely by bonding further with Syl.
I also think there's more to Syl than we understand, cause she acts a bit different from other Honorspren, was the first, and is generally more important and deviant than the other honorspren. I haven't thought about this one as much though so my conviction on it is weaker.
Same, I just wanna read it right now to know. But then I know as soon as I read WaT I'm gonna want the next arc to be out ASAP, and after that I'll want more to be explored in the world. It's a cycle, Sanderson is just too good at writing
I think the Stormfather will be killed using anti-stormlight, ushering in the Night of Sorrows and True Everstorm.
Dalinar will ascend to Honor, maybe only temporarily, and perhaps TOdium cheats in the challenge.
But either way, I think Syl will "ascend" to replace the Stormfather becoming the Mother of Storms. Kal will become a windrunner/bondsmith hyrbid and replace Dalinar as the reluctant king of Urithiru and leader of the knights radiant.
The fact that odium smashed it into a million pieces.
Reforging the shard of honour would involve gathering up all of his power that has been scattered across roshar and sticking it back together.
While spren existed before honour there is no doubt that post shattering they bear a fragment of his power and it is unclear if reforging honour would be harmful to them
I personally do not know, what I do know is that the reason odium shatters the shards is to make sure that someone cannot just pick it back up again. so one imagines if he has done the job correctly that repairing the shard is probably not a trivial feat
I would be dissatisfied with kaladin picking up honor, maybe both honor and odium would be better, leading to something bigger. The best end to Kaladin's story would be that of a warrior's, in a battlefield. Ascension to godhood would be boring. I waana see the man in action, not another sazed.
Kaladin's arc seems to be learning to protect without resorts to bloodshed and war. I realistically see two ways that could go in the future:
1. He takes on the burden of bearing the shard of Odium himself having understood hatred of the lighteyes and others over the years in some sort of combined dual or triple shard.
2. He replace Jezrien as a Herald and takes on the Oathpact as his burden sealing away the Fused from Roshar somehow on Braize again.
The central problem on Roshar is the cycle of war happening over and over again cycle after cycle. To solve the problem somehow has to convince both sides to stop fighting or they have to find away to separate the armies from each other again like what happened after the False Desolation.
I’m curious how these Szeth flashbacks go in WaT. I think he and Kal mightttt just find the splinters of Honor in Shinovar and I think one of them will take up the Shard (lean more Kal for sure but Szeth could be an interesting switch up)
I could definitely see it happen. But I'm wondering how they'll explain it. It would be a really different scenario from how Harmony was formed since that happened from a clash of two shards being merged together.
But, Honor has already been shattered and it's power is sort of everywhere I assume? I could be very wrong there. But, yea, I would be ok with maybe Dalinar becoming Honor. It would really fit his character of course. Kaladin seems too conflicted to become Honor, but who knows
I've kind of assumed what would happen is a reforging of the Oathpact with (mostly) new members, but that none would take up a Shard.
Kaladin takes Jezrian's place
Szeth takes Nale's
Shalash takes Chana's
Lift takes Vedel's
(Probably) Rehnarin take Palia's
Shalan takes Shalash's
Jaznah takes Battar's
Venli takes Kalak's
Dalinar takes Ishar's
Taln remains in his.
Also, looking at the oaths of the Skybreakers as described by Nale, the final oath is to embody law, we can use this and infer that the final oath of the Windrunners would be to embody Honor. I could see this making him able to carry the Shard of Honor if it were reforged (though we honestly don't know if that's even possible at this point), but I see Dalinar as more likely. Then again I could also see someone totally unexpected taking up the Shard of Honor, perhaps Ishar or Taln.
I also don't see us getting any more combined Shards anytime soon. I'd say there's a chance of seeing them all reforged into one again, but even if they are I think we'll get maybe one more (good) Shard before then, and perhaps another more antagonistic one (probably autonomy). I think having Shards combining too often will narrow down things too much.
I’ve believed that Cultivation bound the remnants of Honor to Syl during her ‘coma’ and then set about cultivating the perfect bearer to replace Tanavast since WoR. This is my personal head canon and I have scant textual evidence beyond the location of where the Stormfather found Syl sounding like the Valley and the Stormfather calling Kaladin ‘Child of Tanavast’ (which Brandon has said was important). This will remain my hill to die on head canon until the books prove me wrong.
I think honor still lives to a degree in two spren, syl and the stormfather, the stormfather we are explicitly told Is a offshoot of honor, and syl/kaladin have a weird bond with him being referred to as the son of tanavast, either dalinar or kaladin I could see reforming honor, but I also feel like a bombshell is awaiting us in book5 we have been told that tanavast was going mad by the end of his life so I could see another contingency inplace
It's a good question. After what happened with Odium, I've been wondering the same thing. My understanding though is that Honor's shard splintered and the majority of his power went into the Stormfather. So I guess Honor is still around in that the spren still exist and the Stormfather carries his essence, but I don't think his shard is whole enough to be taken on by another. I might be wrong though - if I've misinterpreted something, please do let me know!
As for our boy Kal, I think Moash has just put him on a pedestal. He's very difficult to kill while holding stormlight, but it isn't impossible - no amount of stormlight could save him from decapitation, for example - and the Fused seem pretty good at draining the Knights of their investiture anyway.
Did I miss something but I thought the Honor shard was shattered and could not be reformed. The last dredges of power were given to the Stormfather while another chunk allowed the Oathpact to continue rolling along. Did something happen to change this?
I'd be shocked if Kaladin takes Honor's shard. First, it would have to be put back together, which I don't think Kaladin could do. Then, there's been no foreshadowing or other indications that Kaladin would have the drive to ascend. The only thing that would make it make sense is if he has the opportunity to take the Shard and sees the potential to protect the whole planet with it. But even then, he just learned that there are some people he can't save and he has to learn to let them go. It would be an abrupt turnaround for him to then try to protect the whole world.
I sure hope Dalinar is the one to reforge the shard and become Honor. We don’t need a subversion here, everything is built up so well for Dalinar to utilize his bondsmith powers and connection with the stormfather to don the mantle in spite of the personal sacrifice required.
I think it would be cruel to Kaladin for him to become Honor. To have so much power to save his friends and yet to be limited by the rules of Shards, or by the shard of Honor itself to honor certain non-intervention rules? That is pure torture and horror for Kaladin.
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Moash is not an extension of Odium. He lacks his emotions and is just a dipshit asshole. He also says the sun revolves around Roshar. While Navani and scholars mentions its the reverse.
Lmao get em
Is Moash not a type of fused now ? Or am I misunderstanding the extension of Odium via corrupted spren ? I always assumed the Fused being congnitive shadows of ancient singers he would control them to a point
You’re correct that the fused are cognitive shadows that take over the bodies of singers. Odium has shown no ability to directly control the fused to any capability and actually told Dalinar he cannot do that when setting the terms for the duel. Moash is not a fused he’s a human who gave his emotions away to maybe one of the unmade. He’s still human. He calls Kaladin a force of nature and that nobody can kill him because Moash has put Kaladin on a pedestal that Kaladin needs to fall either to odium or to kill himself so that Moash will be correct in that all humans suck.
Fair point, I'm with you now. It's good reasoning
My understanding was that Odium was capable of taking emotions away. Capable of taking his pain in a sense because Moash is conflicted in his path, due to his guilt and trauma. Odium took advantage of that in order to have Moash be his temporary champion. He was hoping to do the same to Dalinar because of his guilt and trauma as well.
Moash isn't an asshole. Like everyone else, he was broken. Whereas Kaladin and Shallan said the first oath and accepted the things they had done wrong, Moash said it wasn't his fault. Each order may have different Ideals, but each Ideal applies to every Order.
Once you murder your friend and try and try and get your other friend to commit suicide you’re an asshole. Everyone is broken. The difference between Moash and the knights radiant is that Moash blames everyone else, blames society, blames humanity for what he went through and for his actions while the others take ownership of their actions and are trying to improve. Moash wants to drag others down to prove they’re not better than him.
I would argue that everyone is broken, and the assholes make it other people’s problems while good people use their brokenness to become better. So yeah, Moash is an asshole, but it’s because he is trying to avoid responsibility.
You forget Kaladin almost succumbed to Odium. Dalinar was influenced by Odium for decades, Dalinar was seconds away from killing his own brother. Dalinar razed an entire city because the thrill pushed him to mistakenly kill his wife. Moash is no worse or better than Dalinar. The difference is that he fell in a new era of Radiants. Yes, Moash is a villain but an asshole? No. Even some of the Fused weren't past redemption. Neither is Moash, but I hope Sanderson doesn't give him a redemption arc.
Yeah but Kaladin didn’t succumb in the end, and chose to self reflect and swear oaths to be better. Dalinar chose to take the next step, and is now a better man. Were they both ass holes in the past, absolutely. It just proves my point. Moash is an asshole and still is because he refuses to take control of his own life and take responsibility for his actions.
Kaladin was never an asshole he was a wretch. You could make an argument that Dalinar was an asshole but I see him as being influenced by the thrill as every Alethi was. Calling them assholes is a surface level understanding of what what and who they are. They are lost in their own passions, something Odium wants them to give to him.
I disagree. I think everyone is an asshole at some point. The way Kaladin treated lighteyes? The way he treated Elokar in particular. The reason many don’t want to call him an asshole is because we see how much pain he went through, and we feel it’s justified. But he’s still belligerent and rude, and frankly an asshole.
Stormlight archive? More like asshole archive am I right. But yeah I agree shallan stealing boots definitely an asshole thing to do
Exactly my point 😉
An assholeish, but hilarious thing to do.
Kaladin did not end up succumbing to odium. Dainar’s whole thing in Oathbringer is accepting that while the thrill was there it was his decision every time. It may have goaded him but he was the one that chose. Moash just gave in and says it’s everyone’s fault but his.
And I never said Moash isn’t past redemption, or that the fused are assholes. Many of the fused as we’ve seen are good, just trying to do the best they can in a war between gods. No one is past redemption, and everyone can shift from an asshole to a good person. Typically, by taking the next step.
How can anyone read these books and think Moash isn't an asshole.
Because not everyone succumbs to group think. Not everyone feels that reform is better than revolution.
Kinda hard to be for revolution here when it's led by the personification of hatred
If you take a step back and look at the Cosmere as a whole, revolutions aren't really allowed 🤷🏿♂️
That's more an epic fantasy thing as a whole since it has a lot of "good vs evil" struggles. Hard to say "we should overthrow the current system" when it's a literal devil trying to do that, and extreme struggles tend to favor stronger governments. Reform makes more sense in these situations, and we do see some of that throughout the Cosmere. Particularly Jasnah in SLA. But also Mistborn is 100% a revolution, and you could argue TSM is too.
The revolution is Mistborn was incomplete and rendered moot after the ascension. The goals of that revolution were never accomplished. Odium isn't the devil. He is emotion made manifest. The reforms of Jasnah are ephemeral and not really stated or seen yet, so I'm not holding out hope. Reform only works on unbroken systems. The systems on Roshar are broken.
Mate, I believe I share your political ideology, but you're not doing great with the Odium apologetics. Reform is actually better than revolutionizing an entire political system during a war against the immortal army of the god of hatred. Sure, reform doesn't fix all problems, nor is it gonna solve the Alethi caste system, but it surely is better than nothing, and orders of magnitude better than political destabilization during the most important war in centuries.
Any realistic system that involves people is gonna be broken. We like finding ways to break the system.
> The goals of that revolution were never accomplished. Is there any logic behind this statement?
Because at different times in the booke I see many characters act like Moash. I understand what he's been through and why he is the way he is. I don't like him as a character, but I don't see him as an asshole.
Crazy how none of those characters try torment a friend into suicide, huh? The fused show compassion for their own. Moash tries to make his best friend suffer so much he wants to die. I can't imagine any justification for moash not being a cunt that doesn't involve you being a fifteen year old edgelord, and I'm sorry for that.
I would argue that Moash tries to convince Kaladin to kill himself in a misguided belief that it is better that Kaladin kill himself than fall to Odium. I believe he expressed this somewhere in the interludes of RoW, where he says that he wouldn’t want Odium to have control of him. In his mind, he is doing Kaladin a favour/blessing. Like, putting down a dog you love instead of seeing it suffer. He is wrong. But this is the weird, contorted manifestation of his love for Kaladin, and probably, if it comes, a sign of his ability to be redeemed. The positive opposite to Moash’s position is Adolin, who encouraged Kaladin out of his depression after the death of Elhokar and constantly checked on him through RoW till they parted.
He literally says that you should 'get rid of your pain' (i.e. join Odium) or kill yourself...
In his interlude in RoW (I-4. Vyre), he has this exchange with Odium: “‘I would claim this one, as I have claimed you,’ Odium said. And Vyre would see him dead first. A mercy.” Before this, he does acknowledge that Kaladin has two options: give in to Odium or kill himself. But he also muses that Kaladin would not accept the first, so it would be better for Kaladin to die.
Moash wants Kaladin to give up so he can join him. Once Kaladin gives up, he is susceptible to Odium's influence. Moash is in permanent wretch mode. Read Oathbringer chaper 74 swiftspren. Shallan is near the Heart of the Revel Cultists. She hears the voices to tell her to surrender, to give in, to accept the freedom of Odium.
Hearing the voices to give in does not equate to what moash did, killing an old friend and telling the man who gave him everything to kill himself or turn into a slave. Moash is just a POS, no matter how you spin it.
You understand that people often have reasons for being an asshole, right? Like if a dude was abused his whole life and ends up as a dick, you kind of get it. Just because someone is justifiably an asshole doesn't mean that when they're actions align with that of an asshole, it means they're not being one.
The thing is, I don't see him as an asshole. I don't see any character as an asshole. The closest to any character being one are Amaram and Sadeas.
Ignoring his bigger sins but you don't consider even constant antagonization as an asshole trait? Also, Wit is a pretty big asshole. Lastly, I actually love assholes and usually get along well with them, but in general we use the term as someone who is very frank and rude. And Moash definitely fits the standard definition of that. Final last one: I didn't mean I love assholes like that. Yall know what I mean.
>Moash said it wasn't his fault. Which makes him an asshole.
The asshole part is choosing to give up his agency actively fighting against the people who were once his friends and comrades
Moash is an asshole, being broken does not excuse your behavior it only explains it. So he's still an asshole.
To be fair I think a lot of Moash's existence is to allow readers to feel better about liking Dalinar. Because sure it's been a long time since and we know he's repented, but Dalinar still did terrible things, even while becoming an honorable man. Moash did comparatively not as bad things as Dalinar, but his attitude to the world and how he tries to be better is so twisted and tainted or lacking that we don't like Moash and so can't dismiss his crimes as easily. So I'd say Moash is designed and destined to be an asshole.
That’s a very radical comment for this subreddit, friend 🤣🤣🤣
Moash is the single most despicable character in the entire series. Not even Odium is, because at least he’s evil by design. This man has literally tried beyond measure to get his suicidal friend to finally kill himself. All of them are broken, you don’t get to just be the worst piece of shit because life wasn’t great for you. He didn’t own up to any of his mistakes. Always this or that’s fault, never took responsibility for any of his misdeeds.
Moash is ABSOLUTELY an asshole. He may have had some righteousness to his cause, especially when it was first introduced on a surface level. At this point in his arc, he knows he's wrong and has been aware of it since the moment he gave his pain to Odium. That's exactly the monkey's paw that the BBO(dium)G had intended; in giving away his pain he gave away ALL emotion because happiness cannot exist inside a vacuume. And since that decision he has done nothing but double-down at every opportunity. Moash isn't an asshole because he failed to realize his oaths. He's an asshole because, like everyone else who is an asshole, he cannot accept his mistakes and then proceeds to make it everyone else's problem.
Kaladin and Moash are see-saws. Taravangian and Dalinar are see-saws. I don't think Kaladin can become Honor because that kicks Dalinar off of his seat. I fully expect Dalinar to become Honor reforged. With Sanderson, it's rarely about the what, but the how. The obvious choice is still beautiful because of the build up. Journey before Destination.
Journey before destination
I’ve always disliked the idea that our POV characters take up the shard Honor, since it smells so much like the sanderlanch of mistborn era 1, but this comment makes me like the idea. It also gave me another: what if Dalinar ascends to honor and somehow shifts the shards intent away from honor without combining it with another shard? Would that be possible? Could a bondsmith do that?
I nearly convinced that Navani's research in RoW will lead to Odium and the remnants of Honor to become united into War.
Yeah, this has been my assumption. (Idk about the War part, but the name isn't especially important). "Unite them"
My only problem with that theory is that it seems too obvious. There are some major hints out there that this is the case, though.
Yeah I could see this happening, even though it’s an obvious conclusion. I’m hoping to be surprised though!
I'm nearly 100% convinced that Dalinar will become Honor, but even more convinced that it'll happen in a way that I don't expect. Right now, I'm leaning towards something like refusing to fight altogether, because the honorable thing to do is to recognize the Fused as honorable equals. Or maybe he replaces Taln. I don't know. But I'm sure it'll be epic.
Mistborn Era 2, TLM specifically >!There are comments about Harmony shifting to become Discord and the way his "shadow self" is mentioned makes me feel like a Shard's intent changing is very possible. Unless it has something to do with the conflicting nature of the two shards he holds but I would think the former!<
Incredible point! It hope something like that happens. I would love to see Dalinar killing Taravangian and taking odium, but shifting its intent to be true Passion, Including love and compassion
>!that would be an interesting turn of events. Especially since Dalinar seems to be less passionate than he once was since before the events of the Rift. Still possible though!<
I have seem the term sanderlanch before but idk what it means, could you tell me?
It’s like an avalanche of reveals at the end of the book. Basically reveal after reveal after reveal that’s an iconic part of the way Sanderson writes.
Well, if dally loses the duel and succumbs to odium, he'd lose his seat either way. I definitely think it's dalinar or kal taking up honor on this book though. I guess dalinar could reforge honor and make Kal a herald or something or have Kal refuse it because he wants to die someday.
We could have a similar situation to mist born where multiple characters took up the preservation shard
Mistborn below. >!I didn't expect Saz. It was set up for Kel or Vin. While I'm OK, and actually excited for Dalinar to he Honor, I don't think that's where we're heading, for the same reason that Raize isn't Odium. We know dallinar. We saw his story for 5+ books. Continuing him on, instead of letting him end could be argued as his punishment and would work, but it's expected, so we need someone like Tar or Sazes to come in and change the flow to allow for new ideas and concepts. I think we're more likely to see Honor return as something new. My top guess, that 100% will be wrong is the storm father. Bring back a version of tanavast but changed. Then we see how a concept rules and changes. Or it could be baby Gav, and have him grow up with the powers of a God. How does it change you from childhood? Maybe it's going to be no one at all. Honor isn't reformed in a person/sentience - instead they put it together and guard the shard with no one and nothing guiding it. How would that work?!<
I get it. I don't fully disagree. But I am adamant that Dalinar's story has to end by *uniting them*. To me, the only union that makes sense is uniting the fragments of Honor.
What if he Unites them, but isn't them. I think Honor will be a Shard with no vessel. [I fully explain why here](https://old.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/1dsfeas/spoilers_full_cosmere_i_have_a_new_theory_about/?) but the basics of it, is that it resolves Dallinar story, he united them, but it gives new content and areas to explore, nothing is guiding the shard, we see what Adonalsiums Honor truly was - for the same reason we had to have Rayse die, to get a new villain instead of telling a story we had already told.
Well, Kel and Vin did take up Preservation for a few moments didn't they
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I understand. There's obviously room for me to be wrong. But I don't see it. I think it would undermine the see-saw of the first four books. That's just my opinion though!
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Well, the difference is that I think Navani has made incredible progress towards Uniting Them. I'm almost positive that book 5 ends with Parshendi and Humans united against the forces of Odium. And Honor isn't dead so long as he lives in the hearts of Men. I know lots of people expect some kind of massive, apocalyptic type of cliff hanger for between the two series, but I just don't see it. Brandon likes to *conclude* his series, even when there's more to come (see Mistborn). I expect him to resolve our stories in generally satisfying (if not downright happy) endings, while leaving it obvious where the new conflicts will manifest from (again, see Mistborn).
I think Brandon has had Dalinar taking up that Shard since he was a young man. Kaladin absolutely qualifies as a potential Vessel, but I still think it’s Dalinar. I’ve seen lots of people predict Kaladin will die in Book 5, but I think he will live out his days after this war and have a happy ending.
If Kaladin dies in book 5, I don't know what I'll do with my life. Our emo-king lives forever
I think it would be pretty awful to see him get through his darkest moments just to die in book 5. All that character work and build up. Doesn’t make any sense to me. I would also be absolutely devastated.
Oh but then him and Kel can hang out and be a super team.
Yeah except Kal would hate Kel. He’d get what’s happening and why, but I don’t think they’d be friends or a team.
Yeah they won't be a super team but at least we'll see a crazy fight if Kal does become a Cognitive Shadow
We all die, in the end. That doesn't diminish the beauty of our lives.
Life before death
Doesn't mean it makes for a good or satisfying story lol
It would be called tragedy, which happens in books and war. But actually I think Syl will die and Kaladin will live on.
that would be almost equally devastating and I think that might ruin Kaladin
It would be the ultimate test of Kaladin’s character arc. Especially if it’s not like just a random death but Syl sacrificing herself, like to save the Stormfather or something.
If kaladin does die you know it’s gonna be the most epic scene in history
Kaladin is not dead as long as he lives in the hearts of men
Long live the emo king 🖤
Long live the emo-king Long long to live, as honor, hopefully into the wider cosmere when shards become relevant so we have lots of kal.
I think the shard is really dead... ... I do see Kal becoming one of the new waves of Herald holding the fused on braize.
I see Dalinar following in the path of Sazed and picking up both Honor and Odium, becoming Unity. Had this in mind ever since his anime powerup moment at the end of Oathbringer.
Honor = Unity. What Tanavast called Honor Dalinar calls Unity. In my personal opinion.
Interesting. Never thought of it that way.
Kaladin dying to save Roshar would be a fitting end to his arc.
I disagree. Kaladin’s story is about survival and surviving to protect others. The honor chasm and his fall from Urithiru are about him turning his back on death. Even if in that moment he wants to die.
Im no fan of the Kaladin becomes Honor Theory. During my current reread of OB, I found a throwaway line that just made my stomach drop. There was a conversation between Moash and an old caravan guard. The guard said “That makes as much sense as the storming Stormfather playing the flute, boy."
I recently got thru the same part of my reread and also thought to myself “wow, what relevance does this have”. wits flute and the stormfather and… and… agh
Have you read the WaT preview chapters? Because yeah.
Yesss. I am a super fan haha. I have re-read everything, I think I’m currently on my 4th or 5th RoW reread. I cannot wait for WaT!!!!!
You caught that too! Yeah when I heard that in the audiobook on a relisten I just had to take a minute to process. Kaladin’s flute hobby is gonna be important in the next book according to the previews, and with this line… yeah
The ways things are going I fully expect Kaladin to either ascend into an aspect of nature or die or >!both!<.
If Honor and Odium fuse Harmony style, that would suit Kaladin. But not Honor alone, imo.
That's quite an interesting point. The harmonies would have to play into the overall story at some point. Since both Kaladin and Daliner have a form of darkness about them they could potentially hold both aspects of Honor/Odium ? Is that the point you're trying to make ?
I can't really go further into detail without Mistborn Era 2 spoilers: >!Sazed took up both the shards of Ruin and Preservation and merged them into a new shard called Harmony. He was able to do this because he was equally Connected to each by virtue of his nature to Preserve as a keeper of lore and later when he cracked and gave up hope, embracing Ruin. A potential Vessel has to have a strong Connection to a shard for it to work out.!< Kaladin is Connected to both Odium and Honor by his dual nature of the surgeon and the soldier. Lirin and Moash are his foils, showing a fully Honor and fully Odium individual. Kaladin is a mix. He struggles with which identity defines him early on, but he is moving toward reconciliation with a HUGE step at the end of RoW. People who are well Connected and are good candidates to inherent shards, imo, are: Honor: Lirin Cultivation: Lift Odium: Moash H/C: Navani H/O: Kaladin C/O: none come to mind H/O/C: Dalinar
I would disagree on who you are comparing Lirin to. All of the pacifistic characters in the story I think are more closely tied to Cultivation, who has turned her followers away from war (Horneaters look down on soldiers, the Shin think warriors are the lowest of people), while Lirin is much the same. Honor's followers like Dalinar universally take up arms again almost immediately against Odium's force and resume the conflict.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/s/pmd5E5QY1l There is a post describing my reasoning
While I think you raise good points, Honor seems to inherently have (or have had) soldierly qualities, and Lirin’s obstinate devotion to peace under any circumstances basically conflicts with everything we know about Honor’s legacy. For example, the Stormfather is quite willing to hurt people when necessary, and so are the Knights Radiant. I would say that maybe Honor has changed, and that’s reflected in Lirin’s attitudes, except Shards can’t change - it’s the one thing they’re incapable of. If Lirin became Honor, he’d have to give up the thing that is at the very core of his personality - his pacifism. While it’s possible for a person to hold a Shards that conflicts with their personality, the farther apart they are, the worse the result will be for the bearer (as evidenced by Ati’s fall - and he wasn’t as different from Ruin as Lirin is from Honor). I think it’s a very interesting theory and I think there’s probably a good reason Lirin is the way he is that we are not currently aware of, but I don’t think he has enough in common with Honor to be directly representative of him in any way.
Moash isn’t like odium. Odium is passion, moash got rid of all his feelings
I've recently reread the books and it seems like Kaladin's emotions and how often he acts on them, is emphasized more than other characters. If he doesn't become an Aspect of Honor, or even of Odium, I imagine he will be one of the first to use Warlight.
At the end of RoW, Kal’s eyes turn yellow according to Venlis PoV after they kill Teft and Take Lirin. I wonder if that’s a reflection of this.
Kaladin's eye color in that scene is super important and I can only hope we understand why by the end of book 5
For real! I noticed that on my second reread and got so excited for SA5 all over again.
I believe yellow is either associated with passion or odium?
Odium is typically red, or a deep violet Cultivation is green Honor is a soft blue We see this when Navani tests the various lights through a prism. These bands of colors are larger than the others. Yellow doesn’t come up, which is very interesting.
I need to correct myself. Venli says his eyes have a yellow-red color. Which makes me think it’s probably Odiums corruption, maybe mixed somehow with storm light.
Yep. I’m also using artistic license to use yellow as gold. Which I think we see often in idioms visions. “Warmth” and all of that. However I’m on the fence with my own theory 😂 I ended up researching for a bit and there is no specific mention of yellow, yet. Blue and red and white and black and green, but that’s all (except the AV light which is golds opposite).
So this just gave me a thought. I've had a few cocktails so forgive me. Could the Cosmere loosely follow the laws of thermodynamics? That may be the wrong choice but... It seems like the shards want to reconnect... Will they pair and then pair again, and again after that?
Some of them, perhaps? Certainly not all. The merger that has happened was planned by a vessel as a means to carry out his Intent as best he could, so you could say that is shard-driven. The strongest evidence of a merger in stormlight seems plotted by Cultivation, who seeks to improve, so there is another. Dominion and Devotion are pseudo-mixed and seem to compliment one another. But Autonomy and Odium expressly do not want to combine.
Heh, we get a >!mistborn era 1 ending 2.0!< Dalinar gets Honor, fights and kills Odium, but dies in the process. Kaladin takes both shards at once, melding them into War.
It's always seemed kinda weird to me that this isn't the main prevailing theory, like kaladin is basically already the physical embodiment of honor lol
Yeah pretty much what I was trying to get across, I always thought that Daliner would become the new Talan and take up the new oath pact in whatever form it takes as penance for basically being a brutal war criminal most of his life.
“Honor is dead, but I’ll see what I can do.”
I think Kaladin dies. He talks all the time about how he always seems to live when the people he is trying to protect die. I think he breaks that streak.
Adolin is going to become Honor. Twice he has skidded away from the duties that would be thrust upon him, first to be high prince, then king. It's all a setup, third time is the charm.
This is an interesting theory I always thought he was going to become a new type of radiant or there as close as he can get with the Maya /Deadeye situation. But that could be him "restoring Honor" ? And allowing the Deadeye to regain some of her life force ? I do like this one
It's not a theory I made with my head. It's a theory Imade with my heart.
I have a theory that Adolin is going to embody the honor shard , I'm not gonna go to deep into it . Just a lil feelin
I also thought this. Which is why he has yet to bond a spren. Also the honor spren are on his side now.
I was on that same train bro
Just thinking of this further, when Rysn takes up the Dawnshard, the sleepless tells her she will never be able to bond a spren. I think we’re onto something here
I wanna do the remind me bot trick , but alas , I do not know how
Idk, but I think Hoid is eventually going to be Adonalsium
His brain is currently scrambled by Todium.
Yeah, I wonder if Odium has the same power as Ruin, by corrupting his coppermind
Nah he’s I don’t think he’d like that. Also that thoguht is terrifying
The theory that has stuck with me the most, is that Dalanar will reform the oath pact, and kaladin will be the one to hold it together to get rid of the fused
I'd say he is a candidate to take up Honor, but I don't see that in his character arc. From the beginning, he's been trying to reconcile his desire to be the protector or the healer. I see his future resolving that dichotomy.
THE Lopen for Honor 2024, you heard it here first! Got so many cousins he almost has a religion ready to go as well.
I think it's actually really likely that Kaladin is going to become Honor, even more likely than Dalinar. Kaladin has been called "Son of Tanavast" by the Stormfather, had that weird orange-yellow energy thing even sans-stormlight, and Hesina's background is very obfuscated but probably important. I don't think it's coincidence that both of her children were going to become Radiants. Lots of people are "Sons of Honor" as that's a lot like saying that we're "children of god" or something. Kaladin is the only one with a link like that to the previous holder of the shard, and so my personal theory is that he is going to take up the shard, most likely by bonding further with Syl. I also think there's more to Syl than we understand, cause she acts a bit different from other Honorspren, was the first, and is generally more important and deviant than the other honorspren. I haven't thought about this one as much though so my conviction on it is weaker.
I just want the son of tanavast thing to be answered. I NEED answers. I can’t wait another 6 months for wat. I can’t 😫
Same, I just wanna read it right now to know. But then I know as soon as I read WaT I'm gonna want the next arc to be out ASAP, and after that I'll want more to be explored in the world. It's a cycle, Sanderson is just too good at writing
I think the Stormfather will be killed using anti-stormlight, ushering in the Night of Sorrows and True Everstorm. Dalinar will ascend to Honor, maybe only temporarily, and perhaps TOdium cheats in the challenge. But either way, I think Syl will "ascend" to replace the Stormfather becoming the Mother of Storms. Kal will become a windrunner/bondsmith hyrbid and replace Dalinar as the reluctant king of Urithiru and leader of the knights radiant.
This is a ridiculously hot take. I'm down for this to play out
Go big or go home!
If he does this he’ll become too important in the backhalf
My theory is the Dalinar becomes a Herald and Kaladin takes up Honor's shard.
I would love if kaladin could take up the shard of honor
No he will become Honour with a "u" dun dun dun!
Huh?
Honour is spellt with a "u" in non-us English.
Honor is dead. But who says Kaladin couldn't take up the Shard?
The fact that odium smashed it into a million pieces. Reforging the shard of honour would involve gathering up all of his power that has been scattered across roshar and sticking it back together. While spren existed before honour there is no doubt that post shattering they bear a fragment of his power and it is unclear if reforging honour would be harmful to them
Does someone need to get ALL parts of a shard in order to pick it up? Or could they pick up most of a shard and still preserve its intent?
I personally do not know, what I do know is that the reason odium shatters the shards is to make sure that someone cannot just pick it back up again. so one imagines if he has done the job correctly that repairing the shard is probably not a trivial feat
I think it's more likely Dalinar but Sando pulled the surprise with other books so who knows
You probably need to tag that as a spoiler. It's an *implied* spoiler, but still.
Good point. Done
Was never done
I really hope not since I can’t see it being a nice endgame for him.
I would be dissatisfied with kaladin picking up honor, maybe both honor and odium would be better, leading to something bigger. The best end to Kaladin's story would be that of a warrior's, in a battlefield. Ascension to godhood would be boring. I waana see the man in action, not another sazed.
No! No death in battle! Kal can’t die I won’t except it
Sanderson mentioned in a Q&A that Jasnah would make a good vessel
Maybe in book 10
Kaladin's arc seems to be learning to protect without resorts to bloodshed and war. I realistically see two ways that could go in the future: 1. He takes on the burden of bearing the shard of Odium himself having understood hatred of the lighteyes and others over the years in some sort of combined dual or triple shard. 2. He replace Jezrien as a Herald and takes on the Oathpact as his burden sealing away the Fused from Roshar somehow on Braize again. The central problem on Roshar is the cycle of war happening over and over again cycle after cycle. To solve the problem somehow has to convince both sides to stop fighting or they have to find away to separate the armies from each other again like what happened after the False Desolation.
If kaladin’s arc ends with him getting tortured for 10-15 years I will riot
What if Kalidin's father becomes Honor? He already said an oath (word for word) already.
Lirin is actually tanavast, but deleted his own memories
I’m curious how these Szeth flashbacks go in WaT. I think he and Kal mightttt just find the splinters of Honor in Shinovar and I think one of them will take up the Shard (lean more Kal for sure but Szeth could be an interesting switch up)
I could definitely see it happen. But I'm wondering how they'll explain it. It would be a really different scenario from how Harmony was formed since that happened from a clash of two shards being merged together. But, Honor has already been shattered and it's power is sort of everywhere I assume? I could be very wrong there. But, yea, I would be ok with maybe Dalinar becoming Honor. It would really fit his character of course. Kaladin seems too conflicted to become Honor, but who knows
I think that'll be the story feight. I think we're supposed to think that then it'll be Rhenarin or something
I've kind of assumed what would happen is a reforging of the Oathpact with (mostly) new members, but that none would take up a Shard. Kaladin takes Jezrian's place Szeth takes Nale's Shalash takes Chana's Lift takes Vedel's (Probably) Rehnarin take Palia's Shalan takes Shalash's Jaznah takes Battar's Venli takes Kalak's Dalinar takes Ishar's Taln remains in his. Also, looking at the oaths of the Skybreakers as described by Nale, the final oath is to embody law, we can use this and infer that the final oath of the Windrunners would be to embody Honor. I could see this making him able to carry the Shard of Honor if it were reforged (though we honestly don't know if that's even possible at this point), but I see Dalinar as more likely. Then again I could also see someone totally unexpected taking up the Shard of Honor, perhaps Ishar or Taln. I also don't see us getting any more combined Shards anytime soon. I'd say there's a chance of seeing them all reforged into one again, but even if they are I think we'll get maybe one more (good) Shard before then, and perhaps another more antagonistic one (probably autonomy). I think having Shards combining too often will narrow down things too much.
I’ve believed that Cultivation bound the remnants of Honor to Syl during her ‘coma’ and then set about cultivating the perfect bearer to replace Tanavast since WoR. This is my personal head canon and I have scant textual evidence beyond the location of where the Stormfather found Syl sounding like the Valley and the Stormfather calling Kaladin ‘Child of Tanavast’ (which Brandon has said was important). This will remain my hill to die on head canon until the books prove me wrong.
But Odium himself tells Moash that his idea that Kaladin can't be killed isn't true, even if Moash believes it.
I think honor still lives to a degree in two spren, syl and the stormfather, the stormfather we are explicitly told Is a offshoot of honor, and syl/kaladin have a weird bond with him being referred to as the son of tanavast, either dalinar or kaladin I could see reforming honor, but I also feel like a bombshell is awaiting us in book5 we have been told that tanavast was going mad by the end of his life so I could see another contingency inplace
It's a good question. After what happened with Odium, I've been wondering the same thing. My understanding though is that Honor's shard splintered and the majority of his power went into the Stormfather. So I guess Honor is still around in that the spren still exist and the Stormfather carries his essence, but I don't think his shard is whole enough to be taken on by another. I might be wrong though - if I've misinterpreted something, please do let me know! As for our boy Kal, I think Moash has just put him on a pedestal. He's very difficult to kill while holding stormlight, but it isn't impossible - no amount of stormlight could save him from decapitation, for example - and the Fused seem pretty good at draining the Knights of their investiture anyway.
Did I miss something but I thought the Honor shard was shattered and could not be reformed. The last dredges of power were given to the Stormfather while another chunk allowed the Oathpact to continue rolling along. Did something happen to change this?
I suppose it at least partially depends on whether the oathpact is still “valid” and what happens to the power involved if it isn’t.
I'd be shocked if Kaladin takes Honor's shard. First, it would have to be put back together, which I don't think Kaladin could do. Then, there's been no foreshadowing or other indications that Kaladin would have the drive to ascend. The only thing that would make it make sense is if he has the opportunity to take the Shard and sees the potential to protect the whole planet with it. But even then, he just learned that there are some people he can't save and he has to learn to let them go. It would be an abrupt turnaround for him to then try to protect the whole world.
Lowkey maybe Kal can replace Jezrien so he can be around for the future conflict
I sure hope Dalinar is the one to reforge the shard and become Honor. We don’t need a subversion here, everything is built up so well for Dalinar to utilize his bondsmith powers and connection with the stormfather to don the mantle in spite of the personal sacrifice required.
I think it would be cruel to Kaladin for him to become Honor. To have so much power to save his friends and yet to be limited by the rules of Shards, or by the shard of Honor itself to honor certain non-intervention rules? That is pure torture and horror for Kaladin.
But that would also make sense considering his whole arc in book four was learning to accept he can’t protect everyone