This is why sex/orientation/std researchers had to start using the phrase "men who have sex with men". Turns out a *remarkable* number of men who put a checkmark in the "straight" box on surveys will also indicate that they have sex with men in a later part of the survey as long as you don't refer to it as "gay/homosexual/bisexual activity" in the questions.
Apparently they are "culturally straight", I guess
"Don't look at me I just know stuff" line by Ice-T has lived rent free in my head for 15 years at this point š
https://youtu.be/cx8GnpY99To?si=SOmoVzLtc8I4dedP
I've heard that they originally wanted the line to be "I love women, but I *fuck* men" but of course they knew they had to use more PG terminology on a broadcast network
I'd vote for Thanksgiving considering I'm not even allowed to go to my family's Thanksgivings for being queer. We celebrate "Friendsgiving" instead and have it be about our found family rather than the our blood families.
There's no such thing as a straight holiday. They are festive by nature and therefore belong to the gays, who are a happy and boisterous people and have been since they came to this country from France.
Plenty of gays celebrate Valentine's Day. It may have a hetero history, but LGBT can and has made it their own too.
Thanksgiving is really the answer. Its deeply tied to ideas of heteronormative, extended families, which gays produce fewer of, and know to steer clear of the one they come from, lest Uncle Andy "say something" this year.
Give it a decade or so, LGBThanksgiving will emerge, like Friendsgiving. We always make these things our own in time.
There's rules, okay?
Rule 1: No homo (self explanatory)
Rule 2: wear socks (otherwise you're naked with another man, which is gay)
Rule 3: No prolonged eye contact. (Otherwise you're gazing into another man's eyes, which is gay)
Follow those rules and you're good. You can be happily married to another man for decades and it's not gay.
On my social work course I learnt that the people are more likely to use the phrase 'men who have sex with men', if they are from a place where gay people are discriminated against.
Cultural norms mean some people are more comfortable with that phrase rather than gay.
TBF women do this as well. I've known some women that have hooked up with multiple women yet labeled themselves straight. There is a lot of stigmatism against labels still.
This is found in other areas. Like those who totally support Nazi ideals, but just hate that word (to paraphrase The Boys' Stormfront). Or folks that hated "Obamacare" and like the ACA.
In fact, I think a majority of republican voters (and especially the men) vote Republican because their marketing is that voting Democrat makes you a gay commie pedophiles that hates Jesus. Yet, they totally support candidates that have homosexual relationships, traffic underage prostitutes, and adhere to zero teachings of Jesus. Tho, they're oligarchs, not commies!
Straight people can have sex with someone of the same gender and still be straight. Experimenting is a thing. Same as gay people who have sex with the opposite gender before they figure it out.
Nobody says a gay man who's had sex with a woman isn't gay.
In some cases, these men are in countries where being gay is illegal, so scientists are doing them a solid by not using the word gay when writing about them or treating them for HIV
I mean, I don't think having to hide being gay to save your life is the same as cognitive dissonance, in the ways people are talking about in this thread.
I was more thinking of the stereotypical Republican politician who has gay sex every Thursday at 9pm while he's supposed to be in a "meeting" and on Friday morning gives a speech on telly about how the gays are ruining the country.
Thats my bad for generalizing though
but from the other side too it's wild that we're simultaneously 'sexuality is pretty all over the place i dunno do whatever' and 'nooo everyone has to fit in a category'
I wonder why we observe this in a world where most women dating prospects will say āew, passā if you tell them youāre bisexual.
Guys are put under immense pressure to present as straight. If the choices are ābe true to yourselfā and ādonāt face social backlash foreverā, many choose the latter. Canāt say I respect it but I do understand it.
I am the latter. I am dating men but I donāt broadcast my sexuality or my relationship preference because it does change how people view me.
I also live in a pretty conservative state, but I also find that LGBT people immediately see me as āone of the gaysā and treat me super differently, usually in a bi/pan erasure way as well.
Edit: for more context, Iāve figured out I am gay only recently, so Iāve spent the majority of my life as a straight man in the eyes of most people. Iāve come out to some people, and a good amount of them made a much larger deal of it than I wanted or started to treat me clearly different. So I am currently fine with being closeted and treated the same as I always have been
āMostā? I hate to think that this is true. I live in my little queer bubble I guess, but that *cannot* be true, right?
In any case the problem with the ādonāt face social backlash foreverā thing is that it isnāt true. If you live surrounded by homophobia, fucking guys as another guy provokes that homophobia. It doesnāt matter how they identify. The thread in the OP is a perfect example of this. The only homophobia that not identifying as gay avoids is the internalised part. There are plenty of dudes who identify as gay or bi but donāt broadcast it in exactly the same way these āno homo broās do. But to act like it isnāt queer is not okay.
> "Most"? I hate to think that this is true. I live in my little queer bubble I guess, but that cannot be true, right?
I was wondering the same thing (and wanted to make sure I wasnāt talking out of my ass) so I looked for a study earlier and found [this one](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15299716.2018.1563935?scroll=top&needAccess=true) from 2019. It had 440 people (mostly college students) evaluate dating profiles with sexuality randomly indicated and rate them. Unfortunately it doesnāt give numbers on how prevalent this attitude is, but on average straight women rated bisexual men significantly lower on sexual attractiveness, romantic attractiveness, suitability for sex, and suitability for dating (around 20% lower). Keep in mind the mean age of the women studied was 21 so likely a much more progressive and open-minded crowd than the average would be across the entire dating market. Straight men on the other hand rated bisexual and straight women around the same.
Nah, a lot of straight women hate us. It's a built-in filter though, because I'd never want to give more of my time than necessary to someone who wouldn't date a bisexual because of their orientation.
Honest question, why would you allow your standards to be so low that you date someone who thinks you're gross for being bisexual? Would it not be better to just have that filter in place to get better quality matches?
I know it might be surprising to some, but there are a good number of people out there who get chances so rarely, they just date whoever they can, because the alternative is being alone.
Ideally, yes, but dating is arduous enough without setting up that extra hurdle. And being viewed as less attractive and worse relationship material is only one of a hundred different reasons a man might want to avoid identifying as non-straight.
I think the idea is that most of those people don't have that belief towards guys they know, so it's more about getting past the hurdle and coming out later
The wikipedia article "Men who have sex with men" is quite thorough and cites the relevant academic sources while going into the history of why academics started adopting the phrase
Omg amazing. TY! I was searching things like 'survey categories for orientation changing' etc overcomplicating it.....now to prance off and send a very fun text to a homophobe I know š¤£
For a lot of people, 'gay' 'lesbian' and 'bi/pansexual' are specifically white, Western, and/or bougie cultural identities ā especially in previous decades.
So I was kicking around Instagram as I do and I wandered into a physique post by a guy the word "queer" was used in it th amount of gay male elder millennials and younger male Xers that were offended by that was interesting. Based on the context of their arguments "queer" implied a certain level of feminity that they simply didn't like.
Interesting. Where I live, was still considered a slur around 2010 but wayyyyy below the N word or F slur.
That said, some older gay men still *really* hate it, and I get it though itās unfortunate since so many people actively identify that way, and it feels to me more reclaimed than the N word.
Yeah, it's regional. Grew up in New England in the 80s and 90s and it was a weird old timey word. I only heard about the radical queers activist group in NYC when I got older. In the 90s in Boston it was a word that was mostly used in a small niche of academia.
People used gay as an all purpose insult in the 00s all the time thanks to South Park. So edgy!
There are people who don't like "queer" because it still sounds like a slur, which, fine, I disagree, but I can respect.
But there are also a lot of conservative gay men who would love to lop off everything after "LG" because they don't want to be associated with "those people." They also tend to not like "queer" as a descriptor because it is implicitly inclusive. They're the worst.
It's respectibility politics and every single one of them is headed for the revelation one day about how much certain of their good conservative friends and family actually respect them.
It's not 100% but a lot of these people are just transphobes trying to break up any broader sense of solidarity. You'll find both "queer" and "gay" all over protest signs going back to the early aids crisis at least
This is me. Iām in a hetero marriage and just donāt feel gay enough to check that box. Like Iām unsure how many dudes I gotta fuck before Iām allowed to check it.
And it's even more dumb because we've known most people fall at least somewhat toward the middle of the Kinsey Scale since, well, Kinsey, and, oh I don't know, all of human history when people were homoerotic without being all weird about it.
Oh yeah. As an openly gay guy thatās had my fair share of single ho eras itās wild the amount of āstraightā guys that want to hook on the apps. Itās obviously rooted in homophobia but I think itās more important to just accept what they label themselves as. I try my best not to judge.
Turkish oil wrestling is legitimately as close as you can get to hardcore BDSM sex acts between competitors without directly crossing the line into literal penetrative gay sex.
Which is fine, I guess. But the machismo and manly-man chest pumping that goes on in that circle of things is just a tad bit ironic. Kind of like a real world version of the joke how there's nothing more manly than fucking another man.
Gayety ā an online magazine targeted towards gay men ā literally have an article just called [50 Slick Pics of Greasy Guys Oil Wrestling in Turkey](https://gayety.co/turkish-oil-wrestling-photos-50)
No need to thank me.
Fav quote from the article:
>*While pinning an oiled lad is typically an easy job, itās much harder when your partner is trying to top and pin you at the same time.*
I really hope you're referencing Jess Ross's excellent (and factually accurate) [Smartypants](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C61q4Mcv5E6/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link) presentation. But part of me hopes you're not and everyone is just coming around to the truth.
Real talk, why does a gay guy hooking up with a girl once is still gay,
But a straight guy hooking up with a guy once is not straight?
I'll have to ask my bro later (we are married for tax benefits)
It gets weirder since it goes the other way for women. Bi women are often accused of being straight women who are "doing it for attention" or "going through a phase"
I got introduced to the term "penis stigma" and lordy does it fit.
Touching any dick (save your own, if you have one) irrevocably contaminates you.
Whether it's biphobia towards men, or obsession with female virginity (or "body counts") or the (thankfully fading) "gold star" shit among gay women- - it's all the idea that being touched by a *dick* changes you in some permanent, *negative* way.
I hit the term in Serano's *Sexed Up*, and she footnoted where she got it from. It fit very nicely into the lens she was using to look at sexual objectification.
Bi erasure is one part of it. The other part of it is "eww, guys are icky and girls are pretty, nobody is ever gonna hook up with a guy just as an accident"
Should also be said that there is a degree of identity to it.
For example, I am technically bi, in that I'm attracted to both, but in practical terms, I have not been with a woman or sought a relationship with one in well over 15 years. At this point, I'd rather just use the term gay to describe myself than explain that every time, and I genuinely don't mind if that aspect of myself is kind of on the bench. If an opportunity presents itself, I'll happily pull it off the bench, but I'm happy as I am and dont feel the urge to seek those opportunities out.
That's obviously only true to me, other bi people do pride themselves on that identity and they shouldn't be marginalized or forced into a category.
Likewise, my friend is gay, but they've had multiple relationships with women in the past. That doesn't make them bi, though, because what matters is what they identify as today. They came to the realization they were gay, and that's what they are, from now until they prove otherwise. Their history doesn't affect that, their present does.
I will never forget those lesbians on Twitter talking about "man residue" and how bisexual women are tainted or whatever the fuck after they've dated men. God, I'm so glad I learned to just ignore any LGBT discourse online.
Yes, the very same. Now that I think of it, I see so called "febfems" (bisexual TERFS who only date women) say this too, whichā¦ there's a lot to unpack there.
Yep, it's insanely hateful because they're are many lesbians in the world who have had absolutely no choice about having to have sexual contact with men.
The most generous explanation I could come up with is that gay guys are subject to heteronormative standards and are pressured into feeling that they can't live as their true selves, but straight guys don't grow up being pressured into being gay. More likely though, it's just some shitty archaic view that being straight is "normal" and anything else is perversion - sort of like a homophobic version of the one-drop rule.
That thread is incredibly chill. Almost doesn't feel like Reddit. OP came in basically suggesting that these guys are hooking up because finding women on dating apps is too hard, and instead got an education in heteroromantic bisexuality.
>OP: you're a frog in a boiling pot of water that's being prepped to get effed in the A
Why do some straight guys seem to think (fear?) that gay men are on a hunt to fuck them in their asses? I'm pretty sure gay men who prefer to bottom are a majority based on experience.
Remember that post in here from a few months ago about that football player calling some guy a cocksucker, and people (a curious amount of them for this sub) were tripping over themselves to say it wasn't homophobic, because sucking cock is inherently a subservient thing, regardless of gender or orientation, therefore if you do it, you are less-than. Sweetly ignoring the fact that regardless of if it's homophobic or chauvinistic or whatever, the very idea that sucking cock is an insult-worthy act *at all* speaks to immaturity and hyper masculine ideas about what sex is.
I wrote like a paragraph of a comment trying to explain what you just said in a single sentence, well said. But yeah I agree, they view sex as domination of the other party, and not in a fun, but in a degrading way. I always do wonder what the girlfriends of these people think
Straight guys are super fucking weird about their own butts. I recently took over r/fellasisitgay (mainly to prevent a homophobic chud from taking it, as often happens to subs like that when they're unmoderated) and for a sub with less than 5000 members, I've had to ban a surprising amount of people who unironically implied or even outright said that a guy is "definitely not straight" if he does anything to his butt at all. Even getting pegged by a woman apparently makes a guy "bisexual at least".Ā
It's like they don't get that the point of homosexuality is romantic interest in *other men*, not your butt experiencing pleasure in some way.Ā
> Why do some straight guys seem to think (fear?) that gay men are on a hunt to fuck them in their asses?
It's not fear so much as is it forbidden anticipation and desire.
I'm reminded of a thread on here from the other day of all the guys going around with dirty ass because washing it is "gay".
It makes me wonder how many of those types are commenting in that thread.
A (gay) friend of mine once said āitās great that more and more straight men are experimenting with their sexualityā¦ but please wash your arsesā
I just donāt get it. If there is even the *tiniest* bit of poop residue left my butthole becomes Itchy Lava Land until this is rectified. How the fuck do people live like this!?
This post just makes me think of one of my favourite books Iāve ever cited for a paper.
https://www.amazon.ca/Not-Gay-between-Straight-White/dp/1479825174
Snapshots:
1. *This Post* - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240625080439/https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1do0mf2/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1do0mf2/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
2. the fastest way to consume hot and ready protein - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240625080720/https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la2c5yi/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la2c5yi/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
3. OP: you're a frog in a boiling pot of water that's being prepped to get effed in the A - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240625081102/https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la4fw1z/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la4fw1z/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
4. Why is a man having sex with a man ādireā? You say you ādonāt judge anyone and how they want to live their livesā but are you sure therenāt arenāt some biases you are bringing to your thinking - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240625081223/https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la2a0jk/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la2a0jk/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
5. If a dude is banging other dudes heās gay, period. Iām a straight guy and have never even thought about something like that, as a matter of fact to me it sounds disgusting and repulsive, but thatās because Iām straight. To each their own, I donāt judge - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240625081244/https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la25ccl/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la25ccl/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
6. The whole thread - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240625081445/https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
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Grindr isn't exclusively used by gay people, straight men who want to hook up with trans women also use it. However men having sex with men tends to be gay.
This is why sex/orientation/std researchers had to start using the phrase "men who have sex with men". Turns out a *remarkable* number of men who put a checkmark in the "straight" box on surveys will also indicate that they have sex with men in a later part of the survey as long as you don't refer to it as "gay/homosexual/bisexual activity" in the questions. Apparently they are "culturally straight", I guess
["Man, I am not gay! I have relationships with women. And sex with men."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd8vzIRQLLM)
["you WIN sex with a man, that's as straight as it gets!"](https://youtu.be/9IXHdnjQZNI)
"No touching only makes it hotter"
The dramatic, forboding music always makes me laugh
I will never get over how this guy looks like a video game character in ps2 graphics
That's just how people looked in the mid 2000s and the PS2 was photorealistic at the time.
Thanks, Calvin's dad! Does this mean that in 1990, everyone was two-dimensional?
You would not believe how often our pixelated edges got caught on things.
"Don't look at me I just know stuff" line by Ice-T has lived rent free in my head for 15 years at this point š https://youtu.be/cx8GnpY99To?si=SOmoVzLtc8I4dedP
I've heard that they originally wanted the line to be "I love women, but I *fuck* men" but of course they knew they had to use more PG terminology on a broadcast network
It's tragic that we missed out on that line.
[I don't make the rules, but I think that makes you fkn gay, hombre.](https://youtu.be/m3lzIfi8e_A?si=rP-6fjbmLJLLpl0_&t=835)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tODdMKd0YkQ
"I'm not straight but I observe most of the holidays."
Obviously Halloween is the queerest holiday ... what's the straightest? Thanksgiving? 4th of July?
4th of July is gay as fuck. Even the straights dress in flamboyant blue red and white outfits with outrageous accessories.
It's like the afterparty for pride month too.
Goddamn thats a salient pointĀ
Also fireworks? Gay.
Explosives but with rainbow colours? ***Oh, honey...***
**SPARKLERS** **WHISTLERS** **BIG FLAMING FANS OF RAINBOW COLORS**
I'd vote for Thanksgiving considering I'm not even allowed to go to my family's Thanksgivings for being queer. We celebrate "Friendsgiving" instead and have it be about our found family rather than the our blood families.
You're all welcome at my house next year. I'm your dad now, and I'm proud of each and every one of you.
I distinctly remember the 538 podcast deciding that all holidays are gay with the exception that St. Patrick's Day was the only straight holiday.
Given St.Patrick is famous for his connection with snakes I think we can safely say this is a gay holiday.
Well, he was famous for removing the snakes.
I mean there are a lot of rainbows on St. Paddy's, but I guess they're sort of explicitly \*not\* the gay kind.
There's no such thing as a straight holiday. They are festive by nature and therefore belong to the gays, who are a happy and boisterous people and have been since they came to this country from France.
Memorial day
First big summer weekend? Go ask Fire Island how straight Memorial Day is.Ā
Well shit......I for one would personally like to thank the lgbtq+ community for making all holidays more enjoyable and lively
Christmad
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Plenty of gays celebrate Valentine's Day. It may have a hetero history, but LGBT can and has made it their own too. Thanksgiving is really the answer. Its deeply tied to ideas of heteronormative, extended families, which gays produce fewer of, and know to steer clear of the one they come from, lest Uncle Andy "say something" this year. Give it a decade or so, LGBThanksgiving will emerge, like Friendsgiving. We always make these things our own in time.
Jan 6.
It's all fun and games until someone forgets to say "no homo".
There's rules, okay? Rule 1: No homo (self explanatory) Rule 2: wear socks (otherwise you're naked with another man, which is gay) Rule 3: No prolonged eye contact. (Otherwise you're gazing into another man's eyes, which is gay) Follow those rules and you're good. You can be happily married to another man for decades and it's not gay.
what if the balls touch?
Thatās fine, some women have balls too and itās never gay to have sex with a woman
Otherwise youāre *gayzing* into another manās eyes
On my social work course I learnt that the people are more likely to use the phrase 'men who have sex with men', if they are from a place where gay people are discriminated against. Cultural norms mean some people are more comfortable with that phrase rather than gay.
TBF women do this as well. I've known some women that have hooked up with multiple women yet labeled themselves straight. There is a lot of stigmatism against labels still.
It's not just stigma, some people really just don't identify with the LGBT community
Plenty of LGBTQ people don't identity with the community but that's different from having cognitive dissidence about your sex life.
Plenty of people experiment with same sex sex and it doesn't mean they're gay or bi. Some people just like experiencing things
Yeah they might just identify as roman.
This is found in other areas. Like those who totally support Nazi ideals, but just hate that word (to paraphrase The Boys' Stormfront). Or folks that hated "Obamacare" and like the ACA. In fact, I think a majority of republican voters (and especially the men) vote Republican because their marketing is that voting Democrat makes you a gay commie pedophiles that hates Jesus. Yet, they totally support candidates that have homosexual relationships, traffic underage prostitutes, and adhere to zero teachings of Jesus. Tho, they're oligarchs, not commies!
āItās only gay if you get fuckedā āI fuck women in the ass too, whatās the big difference?ā
> āItās only gay if you get fuckedā We doing Roman rules now?
It's all wet holes bro, trust me, not gay at all
Game is game
This is why there are no gay people in Iran. There are a lot of men who fuck man though.
Straight people can have sex with someone of the same gender and still be straight. Experimenting is a thing. Same as gay people who have sex with the opposite gender before they figure it out. Nobody says a gay man who's had sex with a woman isn't gay.
The men these epidemiologists where writing about definitely wherent doing one-off experiments
Oh, fair enough. It's sad that there's so many who can't even be honest with themselves because of all the bullshit they build up in their heads.
In some cases, these men are in countries where being gay is illegal, so scientists are doing them a solid by not using the word gay when writing about them or treating them for HIV
I mean, I don't think having to hide being gay to save your life is the same as cognitive dissonance, in the ways people are talking about in this thread. I was more thinking of the stereotypical Republican politician who has gay sex every Thursday at 9pm while he's supposed to be in a "meeting" and on Friday morning gives a speech on telly about how the gays are ruining the country. Thats my bad for generalizing though
but from the other side too it's wild that we're simultaneously 'sexuality is pretty all over the place i dunno do whatever' and 'nooo everyone has to fit in a category'
I wonder why we observe this in a world where most women dating prospects will say āew, passā if you tell them youāre bisexual. Guys are put under immense pressure to present as straight. If the choices are ābe true to yourselfā and ādonāt face social backlash foreverā, many choose the latter. Canāt say I respect it but I do understand it.
I am the latter. I am dating men but I donāt broadcast my sexuality or my relationship preference because it does change how people view me. I also live in a pretty conservative state, but I also find that LGBT people immediately see me as āone of the gaysā and treat me super differently, usually in a bi/pan erasure way as well. Edit: for more context, Iāve figured out I am gay only recently, so Iāve spent the majority of my life as a straight man in the eyes of most people. Iāve come out to some people, and a good amount of them made a much larger deal of it than I wanted or started to treat me clearly different. So I am currently fine with being closeted and treated the same as I always have been
Not a problem in most West coast cities, it seems. Definitely not in Portland.
There was a specific hate campaign against bi men during the AIDS Crisis in the 80s.
āMostā? I hate to think that this is true. I live in my little queer bubble I guess, but that *cannot* be true, right? In any case the problem with the ādonāt face social backlash foreverā thing is that it isnāt true. If you live surrounded by homophobia, fucking guys as another guy provokes that homophobia. It doesnāt matter how they identify. The thread in the OP is a perfect example of this. The only homophobia that not identifying as gay avoids is the internalised part. There are plenty of dudes who identify as gay or bi but donāt broadcast it in exactly the same way these āno homo broās do. But to act like it isnāt queer is not okay.
> "Most"? I hate to think that this is true. I live in my little queer bubble I guess, but that cannot be true, right? I was wondering the same thing (and wanted to make sure I wasnāt talking out of my ass) so I looked for a study earlier and found [this one](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15299716.2018.1563935?scroll=top&needAccess=true) from 2019. It had 440 people (mostly college students) evaluate dating profiles with sexuality randomly indicated and rate them. Unfortunately it doesnāt give numbers on how prevalent this attitude is, but on average straight women rated bisexual men significantly lower on sexual attractiveness, romantic attractiveness, suitability for sex, and suitability for dating (around 20% lower). Keep in mind the mean age of the women studied was 21 so likely a much more progressive and open-minded crowd than the average would be across the entire dating market. Straight men on the other hand rated bisexual and straight women around the same.
That's really eye opening, wow. Appreciate the time you took to find a source. A lot of people are more biphobic/homophobic than I'd realised.
There's a huge amount of prejudice towards bi men from straight women.
And bi women from lesbians, unfortunately.
I mean yes but this post is specifically about bi men and their issues, which are talked about much less.
Yeah you are absolutely in a bubble, most women will not eben consider dating bisexual men.
Nah, a lot of straight women hate us. It's a built-in filter though, because I'd never want to give more of my time than necessary to someone who wouldn't date a bisexual because of their orientation.
Honest question, why would you allow your standards to be so low that you date someone who thinks you're gross for being bisexual? Would it not be better to just have that filter in place to get better quality matches?
I know it might be surprising to some, but there are a good number of people out there who get chances so rarely, they just date whoever they can, because the alternative is being alone.
Ideally, yes, but dating is arduous enough without setting up that extra hurdle. And being viewed as less attractive and worse relationship material is only one of a hundred different reasons a man might want to avoid identifying as non-straight.
I think the idea is that most of those people don't have that belief towards guys they know, so it's more about getting past the hurdle and coming out later
I have nothing but sympathy for the grungler š
Do you have any sources for this?? I've been googling with no luck but there is someone I *really* wanna show this anecdote to
The wikipedia article "Men who have sex with men" is quite thorough and cites the relevant academic sources while going into the history of why academics started adopting the phrase
Omg amazing. TY! I was searching things like 'survey categories for orientation changing' etc overcomplicating it.....now to prance off and send a very fun text to a homophobe I know š¤£
For a lot of people, 'gay' 'lesbian' and 'bi/pansexual' are specifically white, Western, and/or bougie cultural identities ā especially in previous decades.
So I was kicking around Instagram as I do and I wandered into a physique post by a guy the word "queer" was used in it th amount of gay male elder millennials and younger male Xers that were offended by that was interesting. Based on the context of their arguments "queer" implied a certain level of feminity that they simply didn't like.
āQueerā was a slur tantamount to āfaggotā up until the late 90s in many areas.Ā
Quite a bit later then that in some places. I was taught that it was a slur well into the 2000s.
Yeah same here. I remember seeing "Queer Eye" on TV and assuming it was like the N word where only gay people get to say it.
TBH even if it's been reclaimed or whatever I still have a hard time saying that word. Not that it comes up very often lol.
Interesting. Where I live, was still considered a slur around 2010 but wayyyyy below the N word or F slur. That said, some older gay men still *really* hate it, and I get it though itās unfortunate since so many people actively identify that way, and it feels to me more reclaimed than the N word.
Maybe itās because Iām in Texas but as a ā97 kid, āqueerā was still F-Slur 2.0 even going into the early 2010ās.
Yeah, it's regional. Grew up in New England in the 80s and 90s and it was a weird old timey word. I only heard about the radical queers activist group in NYC when I got older. In the 90s in Boston it was a word that was mostly used in a small niche of academia. People used gay as an all purpose insult in the 00s all the time thanks to South Park. So edgy!
There are people who don't like "queer" because it still sounds like a slur, which, fine, I disagree, but I can respect. But there are also a lot of conservative gay men who would love to lop off everything after "LG" because they don't want to be associated with "those people." They also tend to not like "queer" as a descriptor because it is implicitly inclusive. They're the worst.
It's respectibility politics and every single one of them is headed for the revelation one day about how much certain of their good conservative friends and family actually respect them.
It was always a slur to those people.
It's not 100% but a lot of these people are just transphobes trying to break up any broader sense of solidarity. You'll find both "queer" and "gay" all over protest signs going back to the early aids crisis at least
Correct.
Oh I think things like pansexual are definitely extremely white and bougie cultural identities today.
well stop it
This is me. Iām in a hetero marriage and just donāt feel gay enough to check that box. Like Iām unsure how many dudes I gotta fuck before Iām allowed to check it.
I'm not sure that's a remarkable number. Feel like we need ice cube in here from SVU saying dude you're on the down low.
And it's even more dumb because we've known most people fall at least somewhat toward the middle of the Kinsey Scale since, well, Kinsey, and, oh I don't know, all of human history when people were homoerotic without being all weird about it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Isn't metrosexual just a man who puts effort in to his looks?
Itās a man who has sex with a system of trains, trams, and busses in a city.
Oh yeah. As an openly gay guy thatās had my fair share of single ho eras itās wild the amount of āstraightā guys that want to hook on the apps. Itās obviously rooted in homophobia but I think itās more important to just accept what they label themselves as. I try my best not to judge.
Why yes, we keep our socks on.
Bodybuilding might be the gayest hobby that ostensibly straight men participate in, and they are really not disproving the stereotype.
I see wrestling has entered the chat with this new challenge of yours.
Oh, wrestling, you mean Straight Drag?
I think he means Greco-Roman wrestling, the one where they wear one pieces and sometimes those ugly helmets
I'd argue that [Turkish oil wrestling is gayer.](https://gayety.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/oil-wrestling-jim-mavro-1000x600-1-640x384.jpg)
Turkish oil wrestling is legitimately as close as you can get to hardcore BDSM sex acts between competitors without directly crossing the line into literal penetrative gay sex. Which is fine, I guess. But the machismo and manly-man chest pumping that goes on in that circle of things is just a tad bit ironic. Kind of like a real world version of the joke how there's nothing more manly than fucking another man.
> without directly crossing the line into literal penetrative gay sex. Ever heard of "checking the oil"?
Yeah, fair point. I meant to word it carefully but it seems I failed.
This is actually closer to the original greco-roman style than what we have today. Traditionally, the men fought covered in oil and completely nude.
I kinda want to start a website "Turkish wrestling or gay porn" and see if people can tell the difference
Gayety ā an online magazine targeted towards gay men ā literally have an article just called [50 Slick Pics of Greasy Guys Oil Wrestling in Turkey](https://gayety.co/turkish-oil-wrestling-photos-50) No need to thank me. Fav quote from the article: >*While pinning an oiled lad is typically an easy job, itās much harder when your partner is trying to top and pin you at the same time.*
Why do they keep putting their hands in the other guys pants?
Apparently one of very few ways to actually get a good hold and leverage.
Wow. I had never even heard of this sport until this thread. But yeah- very veryā¦ā¦ letās go with homoerotic. š
I really hope you're referencing Jess Ross's excellent (and factually accurate) [Smartypants](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C61q4Mcv5E6/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link) presentation. But part of me hopes you're not and everyone is just coming around to the truth.
I saw that too. My mind was blown. It should be shared with the world.
Direct reference to Jess Ross's presentation, which is how I managed to get my WWE/AEW loving buddy into Drag Race
Brazilian jiujitsu
Real talk, why does a gay guy hooking up with a girl once is still gay, But a straight guy hooking up with a guy once is not straight? I'll have to ask my bro later (we are married for tax benefits)
It gets weirder since it goes the other way for women. Bi women are often accused of being straight women who are "doing it for attention" or "going through a phase"
It's almost as if your relationship to men is all that matters
Magic penis innit
I got introduced to the term "penis stigma" and lordy does it fit. Touching any dick (save your own, if you have one) irrevocably contaminates you. Whether it's biphobia towards men, or obsession with female virginity (or "body counts") or the (thankfully fading) "gold star" shit among gay women- - it's all the idea that being touched by a *dick* changes you in some permanent, *negative* way.
>"penis stigma" Wow. That's... so correct. I'm not sure why it's so mind-blowing to me, but it absolutely is.
I hit the term in Serano's *Sexed Up*, and she footnoted where she got it from. It fit very nicely into the lens she was using to look at sexual objectification.
Roll credits.
Yeah, it's a very phallocentric view of sexuality.
I don't know what phallocentric means, but NO GIRLS!
That's ridiculous, next you'll be saying that people don't count it as having sex unless there's a penis involved
Hey now, that bi woman stereotype has been replaced, and redirected to AFAB non-binary peeps
Bi erasure is one part of it. The other part of it is "eww, guys are icky and girls are pretty, nobody is ever gonna hook up with a guy just as an accident"
Should also be said that there is a degree of identity to it. For example, I am technically bi, in that I'm attracted to both, but in practical terms, I have not been with a woman or sought a relationship with one in well over 15 years. At this point, I'd rather just use the term gay to describe myself than explain that every time, and I genuinely don't mind if that aspect of myself is kind of on the bench. If an opportunity presents itself, I'll happily pull it off the bench, but I'm happy as I am and dont feel the urge to seek those opportunities out. That's obviously only true to me, other bi people do pride themselves on that identity and they shouldn't be marginalized or forced into a category. Likewise, my friend is gay, but they've had multiple relationships with women in the past. That doesn't make them bi, though, because what matters is what they identify as today. They came to the realization they were gay, and that's what they are, from now until they prove otherwise. Their history doesn't affect that, their present does.
I will never forget those lesbians on Twitter talking about "man residue" and how bisexual women are tainted or whatever the fuck after they've dated men. God, I'm so glad I learned to just ignore any LGBT discourse online.
> God, I'm so glad I learned to just ignore any LGBT discourse online. Well, I mean....except this thread....right?
This is just a little bit different. Mental gymnastics like this is as fascinating as it is just sad.
Men who read lgbt discourse about other men.
The info is in one ear out the other i suppose
Those are the ones who call themselves gold star lesbians right?
Yes, the very same. Now that I think of it, I see so called "febfems" (bisexual TERFS who only date women) say this too, whichā¦ there's a lot to unpack there.
Yep, it's insanely hateful because they're are many lesbians in the world who have had absolutely no choice about having to have sexual contact with men.
You can build a thousand bridges and they'll call you "Simon the Bridge Builder". But you fuck _one goat..._
Only applies to male bridge builders
You think if a woman _fucked a goat_ she wouldn't get grief for it?! Women get shit for fucking regular human men lmao
Phallocentrism is a hell of a drug.
The most generous explanation I could come up with is that gay guys are subject to heteronormative standards and are pressured into feeling that they can't live as their true selves, but straight guys don't grow up being pressured into being gay. More likely though, it's just some shitty archaic view that being straight is "normal" and anything else is perversion - sort of like a homophobic version of the one-drop rule.
bi erasure combined with the idea that everyone wants men.
The other one drop rule.
Ah, [so this you?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQxYI5HAjUg)
We're too afraid of the government finding out so we have gay sex regularly just in case.
I'm 100% convinced male bodybuilders have to be at least a 1 on the Kinsey scale to get into the hobby. Source: I am a male body builder
That thread is incredibly chill. Almost doesn't feel like Reddit. OP came in basically suggesting that these guys are hooking up because finding women on dating apps is too hard, and instead got an education in heteroromantic bisexuality.
Swoleacceptance is legitimately one of the most wholesome subs around.
Brothers, are we not all gay for Brodinās love?
Out of (vain) Curiosity, have you seen any educational threads on biromantic heterosexuality?
>OP: you're a frog in a boiling pot of water that's being prepped to get effed in the A Why do some straight guys seem to think (fear?) that gay men are on a hunt to fuck them in their asses? I'm pretty sure gay men who prefer to bottom are a majority based on experience.
They are telling on themselves and their own behaviour towards women, and think all men are the same.
Addition to that: they see being penetrated as an inherently shameful or degrading act. Dudes have issues about sex, is what Iām saying
Remember that post in here from a few months ago about that football player calling some guy a cocksucker, and people (a curious amount of them for this sub) were tripping over themselves to say it wasn't homophobic, because sucking cock is inherently a subservient thing, regardless of gender or orientation, therefore if you do it, you are less-than. Sweetly ignoring the fact that regardless of if it's homophobic or chauvinistic or whatever, the very idea that sucking cock is an insult-worthy act *at all* speaks to immaturity and hyper masculine ideas about what sex is.
I never understood that Like, chomp
> because sucking cock is inherently a subservient thing Service tops BTFO
I wrote like a paragraph of a comment trying to explain what you just said in a single sentence, well said. But yeah I agree, they view sex as domination of the other party, and not in a fun, but in a degrading way. I always do wonder what the girlfriends of these people think
They probably think they love them. :/Ā (To be clear, I think love without respect is affection, but not love.)
Straight guys are super fucking weird about their own butts. I recently took over r/fellasisitgay (mainly to prevent a homophobic chud from taking it, as often happens to subs like that when they're unmoderated) and for a sub with less than 5000 members, I've had to ban a surprising amount of people who unironically implied or even outright said that a guy is "definitely not straight" if he does anything to his butt at all. Even getting pegged by a woman apparently makes a guy "bisexual at least".Ā It's like they don't get that the point of homosexuality is romantic interest in *other men*, not your butt experiencing pleasure in some way.Ā
Ah that makes sense.
We are one step closer to closeted guys walking around with protective butt plugs inserted
> Why do some straight guys seem to think (fear?) that gay men are on a hunt to fuck them in their asses? It's not fear so much as is it forbidden anticipation and desire.
This reads like something Mac from Always Sunny would have written (in the earlier seasons).
"Oh, cute. What, am I meant to see this and think "That looks like a dick!""
"It's a bicep!"
If you want it to be a bicep then it needs more veins!
lol reminds me of a DL I hooked up with in college who āwas straightā and only used Grindr for head. He said no kissing š
Hah straight top aka coming to drop a load then out the door.
I'm reminded of a thread on here from the other day of all the guys going around with dirty ass because washing it is "gay". It makes me wonder how many of those types are commenting in that thread.
A (gay) friend of mine once said āitās great that more and more straight men are experimenting with their sexualityā¦ but please wash your arsesā
From the comments I've seen on Reddit woman also have some issues with this. Some of them are going for waxes with poopy butts too apparently.
Every time I see people talk about how shitty and unwashed their arses are, Iām just like _surely that is itchy, it must itch so much._
I just donāt get it. If there is even the *tiniest* bit of poop residue left my butthole becomes Itchy Lava Land until this is rectified. How the fuck do people live like this!?
Imagine the stereotypical visual depiction of unbusy guys in popular media. Does that guy periodically scratch his butt? Now you know why
One thing about downlow men, they will do mental gymnastics to deny their gayness ššā ļø They could also be bi though!
Those gymnastics are the only cardio they do. Wouldnāt want to accidentally burn off a calorie that could go to muscle.
There's nothing straighter than asserting dominance over another straight man by allowing him to penetrate you.
āIt sounds repulsive to me but to each their own I donāt judge.ā Are you sure about that, my man?
Thatās the whole purpose of Grindr soā¦
This post just makes me think of one of my favourite books Iāve ever cited for a paper. https://www.amazon.ca/Not-Gay-between-Straight-White/dp/1479825174
Interesting
This thread seems fairly wholesome and not particularly dramatic, tbh.
Its not gay if you wear socks
That subreddit is suprisingly nice and accepting, which is pretty unusual for body building forums
Snapshots: 1. *This Post* - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240625080439/https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1do0mf2/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1do0mf2/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 2. the fastest way to consume hot and ready protein - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240625080720/https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la2c5yi/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la2c5yi/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 3. OP: you're a frog in a boiling pot of water that's being prepped to get effed in the A - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240625081102/https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la4fw1z/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la4fw1z/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 4. Why is a man having sex with a man ādireā? You say you ādonāt judge anyone and how they want to live their livesā but are you sure therenāt arenāt some biases you are bringing to your thinking - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240625081223/https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la2a0jk/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la2a0jk/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 5. If a dude is banging other dudes heās gay, period. Iām a straight guy and have never even thought about something like that, as a matter of fact to me it sounds disgusting and repulsive, but thatās because Iām straight. To each their own, I donāt judge - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240625081244/https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la25ccl/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/la25ccl/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 6. The whole thread - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240625081445/https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/swoleacceptance/comments/1dnexl9/i_recently_befriended_a_gay_swoldier_and/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") *I am just a simple bot, __not__ a moderator of this subreddit* | *[bot subreddit](/r/SnapshillBot)* | *[contact the maintainers](/message/compose?to=/r/SnapshillBot)*
Grindr isn't exclusively used by gay people, straight men who want to hook up with trans women also use it. However men having sex with men tends to be gay.