I have to say, as a student who hates MacOS and basically wants a Mac equivalent that runs windows, the surface laptop 7 has honestly been perfect. My biggest thing was better battery life, and this laptop does that.
I think people need to remember this has been marketed more towards the casual user, not the gamer. Snapdragon even mentioned this a few months ago.
Love my SL7 so far :)
Liberal arts, probably no issue. But a lot of the sciences and engineering may require specialized software, and no one's had a chance to actually check those yet.
Yes. It’s basically a Mac on windows, but more powerful. It will do just about everything you need as a student unless you’re doing something in software development.
It’s not bad necessarily, but because of ARM (different language or something from intel and AMD) the programs don’t run efficiently. Some don’t even run at all. This will be updated eventually.
This is not entirely true and really just depends. VsCode and Visual Studio are both arm compatible and many of the big sdk and runtimes have been for a long time as well like .net and node, etc. I think for most software developers it should be fine. I'm not entirely sure what docker support is like yet but if you're in software dev just look up the tools you're using are arm compatible and that should let you know.
well it depends. Just because node runs natively on arm, doesn't mean that all the libraries and packages you are using in your project also run on ARM. I can't run my react application locally because of incompatibiltiy and have to run it through WSL which sadly drains more battery.
you can see here that while doing some light development, my SL7 drains from 55% to around 19% battery in just 2 hours
https://preview.redd.it/5oz1orjfje9d1.png?width=704&format=png&auto=webp&s=c22a4928105e068d6ead8166712730e8fdfd1094
So having been a long time PC user (Windows) and using a Mac for 3 years (M1 Macbook Air), I'm happy to see a snappy Windows based clamshell to compete. I was about to purchase the Surface Laptop 3 a few years ago, especially considering the display and to use for grad school. Ultimately cost is what counted for what I needed, and so I chose the Mac. I looked into building a SL7 and here is the cheapest model I could build based on use-case and taking quality of life in account for the next 3-5 years of daily use:
Surface Laptop, Copilot+ PC
CAD $1,999.99
13.8 inch
Snapdragon® X Elite (12 Core)
Sapphire
English Keyboard
16GB RAM
512GB SSD
For me personally, that's a steep price. The M1 Air is still solid for me and in my use case considering I got it for $800. There is also the fact that you have to consider that too many things are still unsupported on ARM64. I would caution on buying one right away if you're a student or someone looking into it as an investment for work. Give it a month or two, let things start to stabilize, and maybe circle back to it if it fits your needs. But hey, just my two cents.
I am in the same boat as you, only a few years ago I decided to buy the SL3 instead of a MacBook Air.
That was the wrong choice. It’s been a disappointment in many ways, and on year 3.5 I’ve now run into the well documented problem of many surface devices where it randomly shuts off when not plugged in (battery is fine).
I bought a new MacBook air a couple days ago and while I dislike the OS, it’s something I can get used to. The build quality on Mac it just leaps and bounds better, and I know it won’t crap out on me in 3 years.
I returned an m3 MacBook air for the SL7 and love it. The build quality between the two is really similar and I don't have to have macOS. Windows feels a lot more responsive to me on the SL7 vs macOS on the air.
I really do hope Microsoft has finally come out with a more reliable product, because I do prefer windows OS. But I’m just tired of having issues with surface devices (have owned 3) and maybe will go back when the MacBook Air craps out on me (hopefully 5+ years)
Appreciate both of your perspectives. Ultimately I think that both Mac and Windows products have been neck to neck and you can't really go "wrong" with either choice at a premium price, and ultimately will depend on your use case and what works for you.
As a Microsoft Azure developer I cannot recommend it. Too many things that are still unsupported. LogicApps development is a no go. Tooling does not support ARM64. It is a fast laptop though and I actually like it, but I can’t work on it. 😒
The hardware is good now, but arm is still heavily lacking in terms of supported software, I agree. Especially important stuff like VPNs, programming and engineering apps and basically everything specialized that isn't on the top 25 in the windows store won't run natively. Not even main cloud apps like Google Drive have an arm version, something that millions of people use.
It's a good machine to browse the web or type a story, but most people trying to work on this thing will probably not be happy
Microsoft didn't even manage to get Adobe to support their apps at launch, instead support is 'probably' coming in July.
That's just not good enough if people are supposed to take arm serious. Microsoft should have made developers port the software BEFORE release of the new surface devices.
I mean, it's not for the lack of trying. Windows on ARM has been a thing since Windows 8 days. Microsoft just hasn't had enough users with ARM PCs that not many developers provided ARM builds.
With Windows 10 providing x86 emulation, 11 adding x64 emulation, and now Snapdragon X with better hardware, Microsoft is trying to get a sizeable number of users on ARM so developers would care.
Microsoft could also go the Apple route and force developers to adopt native arm. There are many ways to exert pressure on devs. Google does that as well when they want devs to support certain standards - they simply make it a necessity in their TOS ("you want to update for that API level? Well either support this feature or you won't").
Apple can do that because they control damn near the entire stack. They make the chips. They make the machines. They make the OS. They make the store where most third-party software is sold. If Apple says jump, everyone trying to make money on Apple needs to follow.
Windows is a much more open platform, with multiple chipmakers and OEMs who are both partners and competitors. Plus, there are 40+ years of legacy software that plays a huge role, especially in enterprise.
It's taken MS 12 years of Windows on Arm to even get to this place, and they're still nowhere near to done. It's going to take years and years more.
Apple did it by discontinuing all future products with x64 processors. That will never fly with Microsoft.
Google has had mixed success, but that only works because Google has the Play store. No Android developer would want to be delisted there. Microsoft doesn't have the same level of control over app distribution on Windows.
The thing with apple products is that most developers know that all customers buying new hardware will only have arm machines. With windows it will probably be years before arm becomes a large percentage of the user base
I mostly agree with you. However I think it’s a chicken-egg problem. The devs will rather program it, if they now that there is a market for it. Microsoft needs the apps to actually build a market for the apps. So one thing will have to happen first. As I would assume that MS does not have the power Apple has over programs to just force the devs to „just“ program for native ARM support.
Also when looking at stuff like AutoCAD or shit, this probably will never come to ARM as they still haven’t figured out how to make it run on multiple cores… I don’t want to know with how many professional software this problem exists.
I'm just waiting for good linux support. Linux has good arm64 support due to the immense success of sbcs the past decade. Just need Qualcomm and Microsoft to upstream the hardware support, atleast to make WSL work.
Now developer support is excellent with few exceptions - C/C++/C# via Visual Studio, VSCode, Python, Git, Java all available ARM64 native. Microsoft was very busy over the last few years porting all above to ARM64. Azure development seems to be one of the exceptions.
And then of course you have all the Linux developer frameworks available as native ARM64 version via WSL.
It's like breaking up with your ex that says they'll change but never do.
Intel had too many chances. Qualcomm had to step in and get the job done and they did
The push to Windows on ARM was necessary to compete with Mac on performance per watt ratio. However, Intel and AMD are finally providing efficient processors with excellent battery life. It is to be seen if Microsoft will continue to push Windows on ARM!
I have to say, as a student who hates MacOS and basically wants a Mac equivalent that runs windows, the surface laptop 7 has honestly been perfect. My biggest thing was better battery life, and this laptop does that. I think people need to remember this has been marketed more towards the casual user, not the gamer. Snapdragon even mentioned this a few months ago. Love my SL7 so far :)
Would this be good for a college freshman?
If you have to use any electronic test-taking software, check the requirements carefully.
depends on the major, and what apps you'll use.
Liberal arts, probably no issue. But a lot of the sciences and engineering may require specialized software, and no one's had a chance to actually check those yet.
Yes. It’s basically a Mac on windows, but more powerful. It will do just about everything you need as a student unless you’re doing something in software development.
Why is it bad for software development?
It’s not bad necessarily, but because of ARM (different language or something from intel and AMD) the programs don’t run efficiently. Some don’t even run at all. This will be updated eventually.
This is not entirely true and really just depends. VsCode and Visual Studio are both arm compatible and many of the big sdk and runtimes have been for a long time as well like .net and node, etc. I think for most software developers it should be fine. I'm not entirely sure what docker support is like yet but if you're in software dev just look up the tools you're using are arm compatible and that should let you know.
well it depends. Just because node runs natively on arm, doesn't mean that all the libraries and packages you are using in your project also run on ARM. I can't run my react application locally because of incompatibiltiy and have to run it through WSL which sadly drains more battery. you can see here that while doing some light development, my SL7 drains from 55% to around 19% battery in just 2 hours https://preview.redd.it/5oz1orjfje9d1.png?width=704&format=png&auto=webp&s=c22a4928105e068d6ead8166712730e8fdfd1094
Yep, it depends, like I said. Dependency hell is a thing.
This is what I was getting at. Not sure why I was downvoted lmao
Mac is arm too. Duh!
https://youtu.be/elpeaSO0MtY?si=drml_Q5XILRNjwEU
How many years before we get EGPU
eGPU is detected and shows as "basic video device" in device manager but there are no nvidia drivers currently for arm
There is for Linux ;)
The SL7 gives the impression its really going to be a star once more software catches up.
Developers' speed in porting to Arm will make or break it.
So having been a long time PC user (Windows) and using a Mac for 3 years (M1 Macbook Air), I'm happy to see a snappy Windows based clamshell to compete. I was about to purchase the Surface Laptop 3 a few years ago, especially considering the display and to use for grad school. Ultimately cost is what counted for what I needed, and so I chose the Mac. I looked into building a SL7 and here is the cheapest model I could build based on use-case and taking quality of life in account for the next 3-5 years of daily use: Surface Laptop, Copilot+ PC CAD $1,999.99 13.8 inch Snapdragon® X Elite (12 Core) Sapphire English Keyboard 16GB RAM 512GB SSD For me personally, that's a steep price. The M1 Air is still solid for me and in my use case considering I got it for $800. There is also the fact that you have to consider that too many things are still unsupported on ARM64. I would caution on buying one right away if you're a student or someone looking into it as an investment for work. Give it a month or two, let things start to stabilize, and maybe circle back to it if it fits your needs. But hey, just my two cents.
I am in the same boat as you, only a few years ago I decided to buy the SL3 instead of a MacBook Air. That was the wrong choice. It’s been a disappointment in many ways, and on year 3.5 I’ve now run into the well documented problem of many surface devices where it randomly shuts off when not plugged in (battery is fine). I bought a new MacBook air a couple days ago and while I dislike the OS, it’s something I can get used to. The build quality on Mac it just leaps and bounds better, and I know it won’t crap out on me in 3 years.
I returned an m3 MacBook air for the SL7 and love it. The build quality between the two is really similar and I don't have to have macOS. Windows feels a lot more responsive to me on the SL7 vs macOS on the air.
I really do hope Microsoft has finally come out with a more reliable product, because I do prefer windows OS. But I’m just tired of having issues with surface devices (have owned 3) and maybe will go back when the MacBook Air craps out on me (hopefully 5+ years)
Appreciate both of your perspectives. Ultimately I think that both Mac and Windows products have been neck to neck and you can't really go "wrong" with either choice at a premium price, and ultimately will depend on your use case and what works for you.
As a Microsoft Azure developer I cannot recommend it. Too many things that are still unsupported. LogicApps development is a no go. Tooling does not support ARM64. It is a fast laptop though and I actually like it, but I can’t work on it. 😒
The hardware is good now, but arm is still heavily lacking in terms of supported software, I agree. Especially important stuff like VPNs, programming and engineering apps and basically everything specialized that isn't on the top 25 in the windows store won't run natively. Not even main cloud apps like Google Drive have an arm version, something that millions of people use. It's a good machine to browse the web or type a story, but most people trying to work on this thing will probably not be happy Microsoft didn't even manage to get Adobe to support their apps at launch, instead support is 'probably' coming in July. That's just not good enough if people are supposed to take arm serious. Microsoft should have made developers port the software BEFORE release of the new surface devices.
I mean, it's not for the lack of trying. Windows on ARM has been a thing since Windows 8 days. Microsoft just hasn't had enough users with ARM PCs that not many developers provided ARM builds. With Windows 10 providing x86 emulation, 11 adding x64 emulation, and now Snapdragon X with better hardware, Microsoft is trying to get a sizeable number of users on ARM so developers would care.
Microsoft could also go the Apple route and force developers to adopt native arm. There are many ways to exert pressure on devs. Google does that as well when they want devs to support certain standards - they simply make it a necessity in their TOS ("you want to update for that API level? Well either support this feature or you won't").
Apple can do that because they control damn near the entire stack. They make the chips. They make the machines. They make the OS. They make the store where most third-party software is sold. If Apple says jump, everyone trying to make money on Apple needs to follow. Windows is a much more open platform, with multiple chipmakers and OEMs who are both partners and competitors. Plus, there are 40+ years of legacy software that plays a huge role, especially in enterprise. It's taken MS 12 years of Windows on Arm to even get to this place, and they're still nowhere near to done. It's going to take years and years more.
Apple did it by discontinuing all future products with x64 processors. That will never fly with Microsoft. Google has had mixed success, but that only works because Google has the Play store. No Android developer would want to be delisted there. Microsoft doesn't have the same level of control over app distribution on Windows.
I mean this also happened with Apple. A ton of applications (especially anything developer oriented) just flat out did not work on the M1 launch.
The thing with apple products is that most developers know that all customers buying new hardware will only have arm machines. With windows it will probably be years before arm becomes a large percentage of the user base
I mostly agree with you. However I think it’s a chicken-egg problem. The devs will rather program it, if they now that there is a market for it. Microsoft needs the apps to actually build a market for the apps. So one thing will have to happen first. As I would assume that MS does not have the power Apple has over programs to just force the devs to „just“ program for native ARM support. Also when looking at stuff like AutoCAD or shit, this probably will never come to ARM as they still haven’t figured out how to make it run on multiple cores… I don’t want to know with how many professional software this problem exists.
I'm just waiting for good linux support. Linux has good arm64 support due to the immense success of sbcs the past decade. Just need Qualcomm and Microsoft to upstream the hardware support, atleast to make WSL work.
Now developer support is excellent with few exceptions - C/C++/C# via Visual Studio, VSCode, Python, Git, Java all available ARM64 native. Microsoft was very busy over the last few years porting all above to ARM64. Azure development seems to be one of the exceptions. And then of course you have all the Linux developer frameworks available as native ARM64 version via WSL.
lol the contrast: https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1dqluvc/pc_world_tested_dont_buy_a_snapdragon_x_elite/
The review OP linked clearly states it's not for gaming...
It's like breaking up with your ex that says they'll change but never do. Intel had too many chances. Qualcomm had to step in and get the job done and they did
Best Windows Clamshell... maybe
The push to Windows on ARM was necessary to compete with Mac on performance per watt ratio. However, Intel and AMD are finally providing efficient processors with excellent battery life. It is to be seen if Microsoft will continue to push Windows on ARM!