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I spent 15 years living in rural Texas, and that was a sentiment that I heard often. It's a sort of Marcianism that they follow, in that they think the only part of the Bible that is actually relevant us the Jesus part, as the old testament is the "jew Bible". It doesn't matter that Jesus was Jewish and his name was actually Yeshua. Read up on Marcion of Sinope and you will understand where the whole, "god of the old testament is different than god of new testament" idea was formed.
I was at a dispensary on dec 24th last year and as I was leaving I said, "happy holidays!" The employee says "What ever happened to merry Christmas" and the people in the store all laughed in agreement. I looked her in the eye and said "I'm jewish, happy hanukah". I'm not Jewish I'm atheist but it was funny to see the look in her eye as she ate crow.
It also makes no damn sense, considering how the vast majority of the Christian church is passionately against drug use (including weed). So that person working at a dispensary is pretty much pure blasphemy. It just shows how people consistently make nonsensical justifications so they can follow their religious beliefs whenever they wish.
It’s always something with them. I grew up watching my parents be outraged by every trivial thing Bill O’Reilly talked about, and even as a kid I knew it was embarrassing
It was embarrassing but without it we never would have gotten that awesome clip of Lupe Fiasco talking circles around him
Edited to add link:
[Lupe and Bill](https://youtu.be/3HPqkt6zAOo?si=tJu4N-iof6hQ1mE9)
That’s a small clip, but it was basically that same thing of Bill being intentionally dense and Lupe just ignoring him and articulating his points for a solid, maybe, 10 minutes? It makes OReilly look like a cartoon character or something.
It was 2013 when Megyn Kelly vomited her " Jesus & Santa are white" nonsense.
[https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/12/megyn-kelly-jesus-and-santa-were-white-179491](https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/12/megyn-kelly-jesus-and-santa-were-white-179491)
I know some people who STILL believe it's a social taboo to say Merry Christmas.
I don't know how people can believe that when every December we are bombarded with Christmas shit. Every commercial has Santa in it, Every department store, convenience store, grocery store, mall, etc has the same 5 Christmas songs on repeat every year, yet Bill O'Riely somehow convinced people that the secret police would arrest you if you said Merry Christmas out loud.
My parents are about 70 now. Their entire married life they've been sending - and receiving - family Christmas cards. Y'know the ones, update on the kids and so on.
They hang them up on the walls and propped up on the piano and other fancy old people furniture (well, the prettiest ones at least) and they paddle down nostalgia creek each Christmas.
It's sweet and a fun little tradition. Some of those cards are ones their parents had from back in the 50s or earlier. One of them is around the Great War and has some winter bird on it, a redpoll or something perched on some holly.
AND IT SAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS ON IT.
Season's Greetings and Happy Holidays have been around in these Christmas cards for some 200 years now.
When I was a in the late sixties and early seventies, up until the time that cable TV started making an imaginary thing of it, "Happy Holidays!" was the normal adult thing that people said to each other during the season for the straight reason that "Merry Christmas" sounded more childish and dismissive.
"Season's Greetings" was very popular for cards because it looks good in calligraphy and sounds more sophisticated than the other two.
The manufactured outrage was ridiculous and always has been, clutching your pearls and gasping about how there's a war on the SINGLE MOST POPULAR HOLIDAY IN THE COUNTRY is insane, and if it keeps up I'm going to start saying HOLLY JOLLY CHRISTMAS Y'ALL just to add some extra childishness to the mix.
NO ONE EVER CARED EXCEPT MANUFACTURED OUTRAGE DRONES. OMG so what if Jewish people don't feel LEFT OUT. No one I knew ever thought of it that way but y'all have time to get upset about it why?!?!
I was accustomed to saying Happy Holidays because it doesn't sound like a Rankin Bass kiddie cartoon when you're talking to other adults but they want it so...
110% it is a normal way to say it for many many years in many many countries as well.
In the Netherlands it has been normal to say 'Fijne feestdagen' (Happy holidays) for as long as I remember. But despite that even here we have a dumb part of christian alt right idiots who are now trying to take over the Republican talking point and claim that is a modern woke attack on Christianity too.
Fucking idiots on any side of the political spectrum just look for anything to be angry about.
> I don't know how people can believe that when every December we are bombarded with Christmas shit
Thanksgiving has already fallen beneath Santa's tyrannical bootstep. Each year he draws closer and closer to Halloween. The line must be drawn.
I think they trot it out every year during the holiday season just like they trot out a migrant caravan story every late October during even numbered years.
They do that literally every year. The 'War on Christmas' is a holiday tradition for them.
In 2023 Fox was pissed about disabled/black santa decorations
Especially as an election year.
The Republican primaries were the wildest things I've ever heard in my life this year.
Literally, ads saying "Mike Braun wants to help Donald Trump protect our boarder from the roving gangs of violent, rapist immigrants."
...I live in Indiana, we are landlocked! We are thousands of miles and 3 states away from the Mexican border.
Like, it's scary. I'm glad The Boys isn't letting up, conservatives really are that terrifying and insane.
Man, my district's representative is MAGA and I get his newsletters and he's always going to the southern border... his district is *on the Canadian border*. I can see Canada from my house, but he's harping on Mexicans for some reason. There's never a single shred of connection between what he rants about and the actual district he represents.
They do not like it when they finally figure out the satire is directed at everyone.
Well, to be fair to your congressman, he has probably reasonably calculated that he would have a hard time getting anyone worked up over the prospect of Canadians coming across the border.
My working theory is that all the seasons have been plugged into being satire of the culture, but it just seems so much more overt this year because it’s dealing with something everyone is at least partially aware of. In the US it’s hard to escape politics, so it’s a lot more visible now.
And what alt-right fascist hasn’t had a dream of >!eating out their own ass!!bloody implement!< at the end of episode 3?
I got the feeling that the writers were disappointed by the fact that their already very on the nose critiques of alt-right folk was being applauded by the people they were lambasting.
Basically, "Alright you dumb motherfuckers can't see that we are roasting you, even though its *blatantly* obvious, so lets move on from the *not at all subtle metaphor of homelander fucking an actual nazi* and remove all doubt."
Sadly, I don't think any level of directness will get the desired results. There are plenty of far right trekkies still somehow =\
What the Boys DID in my opinion, is the EXACT same thing Starship Troopers did.
They satired and mocked these losers so fucking well, that they didn't think it was making fun of them for 3 seasons, they JUST started picking up on it now because the show has made it so fucking obvious they were ALWAYS the butt of the joke and they can't handle not just being the butt of the joke but being forced to realize that they were ALWAYS the butt off the joke they were just too fucking dumb to know.
its like a good 1 2 combo.
I was literally JUST talking to my husband about this- the Starship Troopers comparison- when I got to your comment! After the ST movie came out, a lot of people completely missed the point and were actually inspired to enlist (I lived at a military base at the time). It was dumbfounding.
> They satired and mocked these losers so fucking well, that they didn't think it was making fun of them for 3 seasons,
No it's just that S4 upped the intensity, which made it less bearable for them.
The satire in The Boys is WAAAAAAAAAAY different from the satire in Succession or White Lotus tho.
The Boys does all this to people...neither of those shows does.
My first thought upon reading the title was
"this guy is being dramatic because tons of shows are doing the same exact thing."
More shows than not are engaging in societal commentary at this point. Look at these later seasons of Always Sunny.
The Boys is just doing it SUPER on the nose this season. Not even saying that in a bad way.
I definitely feel like the reaction people have is affected by how online or online-aware they are.
But that is, of course, just one factor in someone's overall enjoyment.
Most importantly to people's enjoyment is how much it allows them to larp as a film critic and having the least amount of fun possible, at least I assume so based on a lot of people here.
I do think there’s people who are uncomfortable/angry that the show’s mocking them. I also think there’s a lot of people who just don’t think it’s very good, and those two groups are getting conflated.
To be fair I do have some plotline complaints but I’ve kept those to myself thus far to avoid being conflated with the other crowd. Like, I don’t care that Frenchie is bi, I kind of already assumed such, but why is his love interest introduced with an off screen backstory to their relationship and I’m supposed to care???
and we already did the 'frenchie dealing with demons of his past' TWICE already. Once with Lamplighter, then again with Little Nina. First time cleared the air for losing Mallorys kids and lifting that weight. Second was to give Kimiko the push to want to take V again and protect Frenchie. At this point its just emotional torture porn for Frenchie
I agree with this. "Frenchie is BROKEN" is something that has been addressed. At this point we do not have character development but character stagnation. Only Butcher seems to be putting in any work so far this season and then only kinda.
Also MM has always been straight and hard, but hes been an absolute dick recently it feels like. I undestand the anger toward butcher, but dressing down hughie at the rink when hes the one outting his life on the line felt really out of line
I mean it seems pretty clear that he is failing at being the leader of the group. He has for years been the glue for Butcher's abrasive to his team yet result oriented leadership and was seen as the closest to being his equal, but it seems like he isn't up to leading the boys...
Oh gawd, they're gonna turn him into Tek-Knight? HE'S GONNA FUCK A METEOR?!? >!Also, he winds up with a tumor "the size of a fist" in his brain?!< Aw maaaaaaan, poor Frenchie.
Shoulda just gone an' french-bread jousted when he could, all this could have been avoided.
It's how you frame the complaint, if you're just saying "It's woke bullshit" yeah... Safe to ignore. However, if you're saying the conflict he's having within himself came out of nowhere and needed to have some kind of backstory (or emphasise the parts they're hitting on now more, if I'm forgetting that they did include more of his backstory) or something previously that setups up Frenchie's fall... That's totally reasonable.
Like Madame Web or The Acolyte, you could change the genders or make the relationships heterosexual without changing a damn thing about them and they'd still be bad. It's not wokeness that made it bad, it was bad writing that made it bad.
I could care less about Frenchie's sexuality, My issue is that in season one he was this mad genius weapons expert/addict coming up with cool devices and ways to try to take down supes. Now he's just a mopey jilted lover/addict who occasionally punches someone. What happened to the mad genius??
I think people’s problem is when the “wokeness” (using that term but idk what else to call it) comes across as something that’s very pandering and out of no where. If Frenchie was shown to always have this struggle, as you said, most people wouldn’t bat an eye at it… but it’s introduced during season 4, pretty fucking randomly, and that comes across as either “let’s make this character be our pander to the gay audience” and not as sincere or it comes across as “we don’t know how to write characters this season”.
And don’t get me wrong, it’s better to say “I don’t mind the character being gay, but this is a half assed attempt and insulting”. Most people that talk shit about “wokeness” are just mad cause there’s a gay character or black character. But I never see people acknowledging that there ARE points where something feels pandering and it can cause some eye roles. When it feels natural, you won’t see anyone make a complaint. But, there’s always gonna be the people that complain no matter what when they see minorities or gays.
I personally don’t care either way. But I do get people that get annoyed when certain things just kinda get thrown in there in a half assed attempt.
The writing has gotten bad. Starlight basically doing the same things she did in season 2. Huey being completely useless. A Train doing basically the same thing from season 2. Butcher mostly useless and doing the same things he did between his laser episodes in season 2. Why didn't Victoria Neuman just kill everyone in the van? No reason. Why did Firecracker get a spot on the 7, just because she's pro-Homelander? She's worse than any number of other superheroes and Homelander doesn't care anyway. The Black Noir substitution is just annoying and he's an idiot, given how psychopathic Homelander is. Kimiko is the same, except now we have to hear her spell it out to Frenchie. Ashlee is a wet blanket, again, now with less personality! MM is completely ineffective this season. Ryan is basically competing for the worst written juvenile character this decade. Sage and Homelander's grays are the only interesting thing in this season, so far.
Big agree that Starlight and Hughie have felt pretty aimless for a while now. Considering they used to be basically the main characters and were very emotionally motivating, they’re pretty uninteresting and inert by now. It feels like they just sort of exist to give other people a reason to have association with each other. Like this show opened with Hughie vs A-Train and by now both characters are taking major backseats. I wish they could juggle interesting plot lines better instead of funneling all the drama and interest into basically just Homelander. Homelander is interesting and all but he should be the main baddy not the main-main character imo
I mean this is pretty much what happens when you have a plotline that really should have finished in the first 3 - 4 seasons at best. Now everything feels aimless because everything is aimless.
> Why did Firecracker get a spot on the 7, just because she's pro-Homelander? She's worse than any number of other superheroes and Homelander doesn't care anyway.
Because she's part of Sage's plan to rile up Homelander's followers, and then use the reaction against the Homelander's to justify martial law type moves.
The first two episodes this season felt really sloppy and jumbled. The dialog was way less sharp and concise, motivations and consequences felt disconnected, generalized and not properly tailored.
Things seem to be coming together better through this third episode, so we'll see, I guess.
Sage, for me so far, is the highlight of the new season. That actress can do more with a side glance or a lifted eyebrow than most can do with a oratory. She's a cool blast.
The abrupt intro of Frenchie"s new affair seemed clumsy, regarding pacing. The resultant bickering with Kimiko seems off, too, as a result - these two are one of the emotional hearts of the show we rely on. Their sudden abrasiveness hasn't been well explained. Somethings missing.
Annie is a major character, and she's been left to react, mostly, on the sidelines. If she's leading a movement, where`s the engagement?
MM`s sudden promotion has hardly any context. We're told he's working for the Gov, but don't see much to flesh that out, leaving clues and motivation unaddressed.
The new Noir's "comedy" is embarrassing writing and would not be allowed *at all* by Vought or Homelander in that world.
There are plenty of opportunities for characters to do actions that would satisfy the plot, the drama or even their own motivations... but the writers seem to be continually obfuscating them for no good reason. Or none that make sense.
Anyway, it has started to pick up for me in this third episode. Let's hope it continues to come together and deliver.
*edited for spelling
This is such a good summary of the issues.
On top of that is the weird logic holes. You bring up Victoria not killing the boys, and I’d add Homelander not killing any of them either. The inconsistent stuff with temp V and regular V. No clear idea of what hurts or kills any character (and the boys gave up figuring that out anyway).
It’s like they got to the end game of the show too quickly and there’s still too much money to be made so Amazon is still paying to make it. Now they gotta add all these poorly thought out side plots and rehash all the previous character development (Frenchie, Kimiko, Annie, MM, all of them) just to burn episodes.
I’m bi and I think that they needed to check a box and were like, oh yeah this guy is bi, and we don’t have Maeve anymore, so lets fire up that gay sex!
I’ve been told that this is homophobic and that I don’t like it when Frenchie is having gay sex because I must only think it’s hot when women are bi. I’m bisexual; it’s all hot. That’s not the problem.
Let’s just all forget that shows do this constantly; bring up gay relationships to get viewership and check a box. But no, it can’t be that, and it’s homophobic to criticize lazy writing.
I think, buy and large, people really don’t care if the political message agrees or disagrees with them as long as the show is well written. The Wire is probably the best example, I’ve seen so many people who disagree with the shows concepts enjoy that show and love it. But people will dislike a show quite heavily if it’s writing is sacrificed for its political commentary which is what’s happening with season 4
a good way to look at why people are disliking the season so hard because it’s ‘polticial’ it is “it’s not bad because it’s political, it’s political because it’s bad.”
This is precisely it. I know plenty of people who didn’t care about the shows politics because it was a good show, and those people are talking about how dumb this season is because the writing has tanked.
The fact that it was making fun of them wasn’t an issue so long as they did a good job of it.
hell I even agree with most of the shows politics and I really dislike the nose dive in writing, it feels really lazy, and honestly is going to date this show super hard.
I agree, it's crazy to me that many people only now have realised the show is critiquing them. However for me the commentary on American politics is too on the nose this time. I perfectly understood the parallels between reality and the show since the beggining, so spelling it out like we're stupid this season felt like lazy writing to me and one of the reasons the season is a little flat imo...
As it turns out it was needed for the dumb q anon types to realise what the show is actually about.
Exactly, it feels like they are spoon feeding it. “Critical supe theory” had my eyes rolling. Also, I liked when it was subtle and clever because I don’t want to just be spoon fed this crap that angers me everywhere else.
I want shows that hint to reality and use subtle ways to do it. I, and I feel many people, don’t want an “unflinchingly honest mirror” because we do, in part, want to be entertained and forget about this idiotic bullshit for a little bit.
I honestly think the Trump fans going around in Homelander costumes at rallies *did something* to the writers. Like no, we can't hold back, we do have to be that blatant, because these people will not actually realize they're being made fun of until we shove it down their throats...
This is the classic entertainment industry dodge - "we know our show is mediocre but NAZIs don't like our show and if you don't like the show then you must be siding w the NAZIs"
Writing this season is ok/meh... a continuation of the crap from later episodes last season. The whole tone of the show has shifted from the first seasons - it's just campy shock satire now with zero stakes and not nearly as clever as it thinks it is.
I was so confused by the ice skating scene. Almost all the shocking gore and violence in the show has come from the supes. They're the game changer in this world that makes it different than ours. They're the problem that is the source of the horrible things that happen to people.
But after Homelander accidentally kills one they panic and it's just a blood bath of people slicing eachother up with skates while trying to escape. What was the point of it in the overall story of superheroes being uncontrolled and awful? That ice skaters are also?
Thank you, I saw so many people saying it was hilarious and great and I was like "what the fuck is this? That's not how ice skates work". It was like I was watching a dumb comedy sketch.
I see this a lot with a lot of modern shows. The Boys, Star Wars Acolyte, stuff like that. There's one (usually the larger) group that just dislikes the show for sincere reasons, like writing, plot, issues with characterization, etc. Then there's another group that's just horrifically racist/homophobic/etc and "anti-woke".
And while the anti-woke crowd is so stupid it hurts, there is a level of irony of the coping fans and the fans that can't help but deepthroat their favorite IP's or megacorporations using the anti-woke crowd as an excuse for why their favorite thing has been reviewing badly, ignoring any actual complaints and just slapping a "dumb racist/homophobe/etc" sticker on anyone that tries to say it's bad.
The Wire shows a real view of society, but it's understandable problems. It isn't forcing people to reconcile that there is a large chunk of America worried about adrenochrome harvesting.
It's the surrealism being shoved in people's face that causes uncomfortableness.
well the Wire focused on blending quality writing with what it was saying politically. It gives you all the evidence to make your own conclusions and trusts you to do so. Everything was shown, not told.
but the latest season feels like the writers kinda gave up on even trying with their satire. Wow gee, I wonder what ‘Critical Supe theory’ is parodying, or the pizza gate references. I’m not even saying that the commentary was subtle before, but it was CLEVER before. Not just references to real world things, which may I add, really kinda screws the world building of the show. It’s making it feel more and more like the writers just took our world and put supes into it. The first season did a great job at making the audience feel the Boys universe, Supes felt integrated into the world akin to Mickey Mouse. But I feel like in season 3 and now season 4, the world is beginning to lose its feel. Especially with the product placements in three that really irked me
and before you go “well that’s the point, that the real world is absurd and crazy enough.” I just have to point how lazy of an excuse that is. Why would I watch the show if I could just watch whatever news channel for the same effect? And that’s not a good reason to not even try with the satire, like imagine if Mel Brooks just retold history 1 to 1 in “History of the World Part 1” citing how ‘history was absurd enough’ or ‘Life of Brian’ being a 1:1 Jesus retelling.
I’m all for this take. There’s some truth to it.
But the execution has not been as sharp as years past and that’s the reason why there’s so many critics.
yeah i think one of the things that's been annoying is that what they're doing recently (s3-4) isn't really political commentary or satire. it's more like "haha look this thing is like this other thing, aren't we clever?" and it's done in a way that doesn't provide any insight into the issue they're referencing. last season, trump quotes were randomly thrown into homelander's dialogue just as a little wink-wink even though it added literally nothing and also went against homelander's established characterization (speaking specifically to him telling people to go out while an explosive soldier boy was wandering the city)
the other thing i find distasteful is how careless it feels sometimes. there were instances in the s4 premiere where they referenced some currently controversial issues on all sides of the political spectrum (people subbing "jews" with "zionists" to be antisemitic, amber heard) in literal throwaway dialogue. at that point it feels exploitative and cheap, like you've thrown things in for shock value rather than to actually say anything meaningful.
i'm staunchly leftist but i just don't think they're doing a good job with it anymore, and pretending that every single person who criticizes the show is a right-wing nut is lame and intellectually dishonest. conversely, i thought the stormfront stuff in season 2 depicting right-wing indoctrination through social media was great. it felt like they really fleshed that out and gave it the narrative space it deserved. i still think stormfront's line: "people like what i have to say, they believe in it -- they just don't like the word nazi" was very astute and on the whole she was a great addition to the show!
so... it's honestly upsetting to know that they can actually do a good job with their politics but are instead choosing low-hanging fruit to put into their show for viral social media moments, or something.
You said it better than I could've. I'm a leftist and I definitely agree they did a fantastic job on Stormfront. This season I am enjoying watching what Sage is up to. But otherwise, many of the subplots so far aren't as interesting. Particularly Frenchies. I get what they're going for, it just hasn't worked IMO.
He was a great character in season 1 I think but they've really dropped the ball with him in every season since. Not even just with him and Kimiko but just Frenchie overall, he hardly even feels like a member of The Boys at times now.
It's Family Guy jokes, where the *reference* is what you're supposed to point and gawk at, not what's happening that USES the reference.
There was a Youtube vid I caught, that pretty succinctly put it: Family Guy had a cutaway joke that was Abbott and an Owl. Abbott kept asking for the players' name, and the Owl, obviously, replied with "Who?" That's...that's the whole bit. If you didn't understand the reference to "Who's on First?", then it was weird.
Meanwhile, the Simpsons had Principal Skinner and Super Nintendo Chalmers attempt to do "Who's on First", and both completely ruin their halves of the bit simply based off of how their personalities interact. Which fits, it's funny, and it doesn't require you having knowledge of a stand-up bit from 1938.
The Boys needs to do more of the second style, allowing their characters to *be their own characters*, instead of simply warbling a buzzword or phrase that is in our current lexicon and hoping that does the same job.
I cannot believe that Homelander would be aware of, nor would use the term, "Libtard" in any capacity, because it would imply that he understood what "Liberals and Conservatives" are, *let alone giving a shit about either side*. He speaks in empty platitudes (or hurls generic insults), unless it's about himself in which case it's VERY glowing about how great (and powerful) he is. To offer up a *specific* insult that would be generated from a wheelhouse he wouldn't be caught 3 miles from is disingenuous to his character. (If anything, they should've had him toss the term at *anyone* talking badly to him, just to show that he didn't understand the terms' connotations either.)
It'd be like if he started calling people "Soy Boys", an insult that *itself* is based off of an insulting insinuation from the right ("Ha ha, their baby formula contained estrogen, so they're totally a *girl* now" --> "Soy Boy", which is....just confusing if you weren't up-to-snuff with whatever they were rambling on about). Homelander wouldn't know nor care what "soy" would mean in a political phrasing, he'd simply call you a stupid motherfucker and threaten to dump you off of the Empire State Building. Or insult you superficially, via your looks or voice or something. Y'know, like "the FUCK am I gonna do with a blind superhero?" He didn't also try to call him an undocumented worker or anything, he just went for the blatantly obvious.
This is the wrong kind of nuance for his character, and it doesn't fit with what we've seen so far.
Edit: Changed to reflect the correct origins of "Soy Boy".
yeah, it’s very mid. a smaller thing i noticed though, MM went from having memorabilia of the black panthers to having a barack obama picture in his room
The problem isn’t the boys becoming too political, the problem is the boys becoming too on the nose. A good allegory of something shouldn’t have to spell out what it’s parodying to the audience, which it is doing this season.
Yeah, there's "current year" references in this season that don't make sense to me. It dates the show, making it awkward in the future, and really kind of breaks suspension.
“It dates the show”. Exactly. This season the jokes and references they are using are years old at this point, we are waiting over a year to see this show and when it finally comes out they are major part of their story line is to rehash old jokes in a way that was not as clever as it was in the past
Everyone’s acting like the satire should be more subtle but the show has been building this tension every season to reach a climax and we’re now in the second to last season. How can they stay subtle when trying to represent the boiling point that society has reached at this point in the overall plot?
Its always been this on the nose. The early seasons just commented on crazy catholics and extreme right wing white Christians. Newer seasons drop the religion stuff in favour for the downright insane alt right Conspiracy people
There's no difference in how on the nose these groups have been commented on, its just that the irl alt right is just more of a ridiculous group, so the adaptation of them looks more on the nose cos of it.
I think the show has a good few problems recently, but god its never been subtle.
... I also thought last season was way too on the nose, to the point where the subtext didn't even make sense within the text.
(They wanted their Covid allegory so bad they told us that Conservatives are insufficiently paranoid about terrorist attacks and don't make a big enough deal about our nation being attacked. Like... come on.)
Ahh here it goes again with The Boys fanbase.
The fans constant pseudo intellectual defense where they praise the show as realistic and something people are too soft to handle as a way to dismiss valid criticism again.
yep, all their justifications are basically "Haha dumb right winger fool, you just realized the show is making fun of you"
They literally don't want to listen to any criticism, and if you say anything you're considered a right wing maga supporter. It's so ironic yet really sad at the same time
As much as I'm liking this season, the references are exhausting and really break the immersion. This shit is becoming south park episodes.
The worst part is homelander being bossed around by the woman who clearly spends too much time on reddit.
To be fair, you have to have very high media literacy to understand The Boys. The satire is extremely un-subtle, and without a solid grasp of modern American politics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head.
I feel like the show had something really interesting to say in Seasons 1 and 2. However, seasons 3 and 4 so far have been just: “ha ha, we referenced this thing that exists in real life, ha ha” without saying anything particularly deep (lol) or interesting.
and I also want to point out how it’s really beginning to wear the world building/immersion thin. Like season 1 we’re introduced to a world where it truly feels like Supes are integrated into corporate consumerism culture, akin to Mickey Mouse. With A-Train’s face on beer bottles, Homelander on just about everything, it felt unique and personable.
season 2 wasn’t too egregious with the immersion, aside from the one Pewdiepie reference. But Season 3 and 4 really have kinda destroyed any uniqueness to the world. Like, season 3 had distracting product placement (Butcher orders connect 4 off of Amazon prime for example), and season 4 really feels like the writers just gave up trying with the world, just putting in references to whatever political thing.
and the thing is, it’s really going to date this show hard. In 20 years, it’s going to really feel old and dated. Heck, it’s beginning to feel that way already
I think it’s definitely about scale. I’ve been rewatching season 1 and it really does feel like superheroes a global sensation rather than purely being centered in America. We’ve seen Homelander commit horrible atrocities in Africa and we’ve seen supe terrorists from other countries. This season has been based entirely in the United States and it doesn’t really feel like other parts of the world are affected from the audience’s point of view. I would like to see conflict and the effects of supes and Vought across the globe to give a lot of the political stakes this season real meaning. So far, it’s mainly just been elections and right vs. left.
>Like season 1 we’re introduced to a world where it truly feels like Supes are integrated into corporate consumerism culture, akin to Mickey Mouse.
Exactly. It felt somewhat believable that most people would actually love Vought and its Supes. Now everything involving the supes is so obviously dumb and horrible. Like when Nathan was telling his sons A-train never saved anyone? I knew Vought scripted lots of saves, but I didn't think the supes never saved *anyone*. That kinds of changes the entire situation with Homelander and Maeve on the plane.
I am going to go fucking crazy if I see another show reference Elon Musk. If I wanted a parody of the news I would just watch SNL or something.
That’s what this feels like. One way too long and overdone SNL sketch.
I wanted to watch a show bashing superheroes and exploring the complexity of individuals with insane powers while exploring societal issues with clever subtext. Not an “unflinchingly honest mirror”. We all have enough of that without it seeping into all of our fucking entertainment and escape.
This is my exact problem with it. It's gotten way too lazy the more they try to make this about maga. And I fear it will get lost to time like anything that tries too hard to make modern culture references its entire identity.
It's no coincidence that the show's decline coincides with the protagonists using Compound V (or Temp V if you want to be technical).
The show's entire conflict rested on the power imbalance between the supes and the protagonists. Once the protagonists begin taking Temp V, then everyone is a supe and the power imbalance is gone. Suddenly, that whole core conflict of the show that gave it that wonderful tension evaporates and the show has no where to go that feels anything different from the countless other super hero movies/shows we've seen.
The writers needed a new conflict, so they chose the conflicts of real life. Unfortunately, it doesn't make for anywhere nearly as good of a show as the original conflict of the David vs goliath story of non-supes vs supes.
Sure it's a mirror but copying language of the alt-right trolls word for word seems very low effort (for example: supe lives matter/critical supe theory/january 6th/pizzagate etc.). I hate seeing that shit in real life and it's not even funny in the show because the right wing has become so ridiculous that a parody of them doesn't work since it's the exact same thing. I feel like the show was more subtle and clever in the first two seasons. Stormfront was at least actually scary and an interesting character. "They like what I say, the just don't like the word Nazi." That's miles better than what we get now. Or maybe the novelty of the concept of fascist superheroes just wears off, IDK.
I feel the same way. That Stormfront line is probably one of the best lines in the show, and this season is never going to top that. It just keeps referencing real life shit and does nothing with it.
Also, it keeps forcing in references like Epstein and pete davidson, it’s super lazy writing
The Epstein reference was kinda fucked up to. Everyone on the right and left knows he didn’t kill himself but the show seemed to make it look like that situation wasn’t as serious as it is.
They stuffed it up and got it backwards. If she'd have said something like "we all know Epstein was really a Supe and they had to silence him" then it feels more batshit conspiracy-styled for the character. To have Firesparklerwoman (wtf is her name?) agree with the general IRL internet consensus just helps make her look normal.
Also it would make the concept of an IRL orgy island being owned and operated by a Supe, for Supes and the Rich, fit in with the overall theme of The Boys where many Supes engage in that sort of activity such as Herogasm, etc.
Sorta like how in Men in Black they said Elvis didn't die, he just went home. Simple reference, easy joke, and blends real people/history with the world-building they're doing in the movie's first act.
My question is, what's the actual goal of the satire? The people who back it up, and praise the Boys satire, treat it like amazing commentary that breaks boundaries, but let's be honest, all it does, is appeal to people who already agree. No one changes their political perspective after watching the Boys, if they did, their convictions were probably not that strong in the first place. Imo the satire is fundamentally pointless, cause 1. It's not clever, so you can't appreciate it on that level. 2. It only appeals to people who agree
If you pause the episode during that scene and look up the Xray trivia, there is this message:
> Actor Rob Benedict wants us to remind everyone that he studied Shakespeare at Northwestern University. There is no contractual obligation for us to carry out this request. This is merely a kind gesture.
Yeah this show is only for the truly media literate, where if you have any criticism you will be told the show is actually making fun of you and the show isn’t for you
It's strange how people deflect any critique on season 4 because it must be "because conservatives finally realized the show was mocking them", completely ignoring that they've been complaining about the show on Twitter or whatever for like 2+ years now.
You joke, but I swear this how it was after S3 released. Any criticism of any aspect of the writing led to vicious downvoting by fans saying that you're far-right, misogynistic, racist, etc. I remember I vaguely floated the idea that maybe Black Noir was misremembering his memories from his time in Payback, and I got bombarded with comments saying I'm a victim blamer. I simply was curious about an alternate take where maybe Soldier Boy was not the psycho they made him out to be, and even that led to meltdowns.
The mods also did a shit job moderating as well. They let these assholes say whatever they wanted.
As a fellow non-American I don't think we have the luxury to simply not care about American politics. Directly or indirectly we're all going to be affected by them ☹️
Previous seasons were political, but it wasn't politics first..it was more about the characters and their archs....now it feels more about the politics...the plot lines are more about making a political/cultural point rather than telling a story with unique characters who themselves are parodies of classic characters.
It's not that it makes me uncomfortable, it's just boring.
The political commentary, isn't even really commentary at all since it says nothing new and just copies moments from real life events almost beat for beat.
When the show does the commentary on Hollywood and the entertainment industry it's at it's best, when it's trying to do the whole culture war shit, it's boring.
Politically The Boys has barely budged an inch but I don’t think the satire is clever any more. At its worst it comes off as stuff you’d read on r/politicalhumor.
Just because satire is correct doesn’t mean it’s funny or clever. The writers nailed it that Trump has no real beliefs or values and is only motivated by a childish desire to be popular. “Homelander is Trump” is not clever. “The War on Christmas” is idiotic but it’s also so idiotic that making fun of it is beating a dead horse at this point, that scene feels like it was taken from the Bush or Obama era.
The only one? Have you seen...
The Wire
The Plot Against America
The Curse
Succession
White Lotus
Mad Men (yes, still relevant today if you think about it a little more deeply)
Even Watchmen.
Etc.
You end up forgetting that equally it shows the other side as what basically just amounts to be useful idiots to keep fanning the flames for Homelanders/Sages ultimate goals, being right or not aside- they end up being yet another tool in the plan.
Both the Homelanders and the Starlighters are being equally played like Chess pieces for the bigger goal.
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The Christmas song in Vought On Ice could have been written by Fox News.
"Jesus is for everyone!"
“From the Jew section of the Bible” ROFL
You see, that's both hilarious and horrifying
“Hilarious and horrifying” is the show’s core competency.
I spent 15 years living in rural Texas, and that was a sentiment that I heard often. It's a sort of Marcianism that they follow, in that they think the only part of the Bible that is actually relevant us the Jesus part, as the old testament is the "jew Bible". It doesn't matter that Jesus was Jewish and his name was actually Yeshua. Read up on Marcion of Sinope and you will understand where the whole, "god of the old testament is different than god of new testament" idea was formed.
I cackled when she said this line
Fire cracker has had some of the greatest terrible lines so far, I lost it when she called the Bat Mitzvah a “Zionist cabal”
I was at a dispensary on dec 24th last year and as I was leaving I said, "happy holidays!" The employee says "What ever happened to merry Christmas" and the people in the store all laughed in agreement. I looked her in the eye and said "I'm jewish, happy hanukah". I'm not Jewish I'm atheist but it was funny to see the look in her eye as she ate crow.
It also makes no damn sense, considering how the vast majority of the Christian church is passionately against drug use (including weed). So that person working at a dispensary is pretty much pure blasphemy. It just shows how people consistently make nonsensical justifications so they can follow their religious beliefs whenever they wish.
reminds me of a joke in moral orel, "why r u burning the bible?" "only the jewish part" rips out the old testament and throws it into the fire
"*And* he's white. He's white, you hear me? So is Santa Claus! Don't you forget it, kids!"
“Mermaids are WHITE”
"I'm 35. That's important to me"
I haven’t laughed this hard at a comedy special in years. I love Shane.
Remind me where this was from again!
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dJvd9eVzq00?app=desktop
Shane Gillis “Beautiful Dogs” stand up special on Netflix
Thx! Now I know what I'm watching now.
The “happy holidays” controversy was a real thing that Fox News leaned into like 20 years ago
Not even that long ago. Remember in like 2019 when they got mad because the Starbucks Christmas cups were plain red or some similar nonsense?
It’s always something with them. I grew up watching my parents be outraged by every trivial thing Bill O’Reilly talked about, and even as a kid I knew it was embarrassing
His "war" on gangsta rap was super embarrassing.
It was embarrassing but without it we never would have gotten that awesome clip of Lupe Fiasco talking circles around him Edited to add link: [Lupe and Bill](https://youtu.be/3HPqkt6zAOo?si=tJu4N-iof6hQ1mE9) That’s a small clip, but it was basically that same thing of Bill being intentionally dense and Lupe just ignoring him and articulating his points for a solid, maybe, 10 minutes? It makes OReilly look like a cartoon character or something.
The craziest part of that clip is Bill defending Obama. He somehow looks sane compared to modern Fox
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Today Fox would be agreeing that Biden is the world's biggest terrorist.
damn i need a clip
It’s also embarrassing that several black rappers are now supporting the same party that Fox News and Bill O’Reilly supported
I like to imagine pissing on rush limbahgs grave whenever I hear Tucker or bill talk
I live in the city where he's buried, so I can make that happen
Don't let your dreams just be dreams
It was 2013 when Megyn Kelly vomited her " Jesus & Santa are white" nonsense. [https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/12/megyn-kelly-jesus-and-santa-were-white-179491](https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/12/megyn-kelly-jesus-and-santa-were-white-179491)
The War on Christmas was happening when I was in high school in 2004.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure that was the direct reference they were trying to make with the cafe counter at the start.
I know some people who STILL believe it's a social taboo to say Merry Christmas. I don't know how people can believe that when every December we are bombarded with Christmas shit. Every commercial has Santa in it, Every department store, convenience store, grocery store, mall, etc has the same 5 Christmas songs on repeat every year, yet Bill O'Riely somehow convinced people that the secret police would arrest you if you said Merry Christmas out loud.
My parents are about 70 now. Their entire married life they've been sending - and receiving - family Christmas cards. Y'know the ones, update on the kids and so on. They hang them up on the walls and propped up on the piano and other fancy old people furniture (well, the prettiest ones at least) and they paddle down nostalgia creek each Christmas. It's sweet and a fun little tradition. Some of those cards are ones their parents had from back in the 50s or earlier. One of them is around the Great War and has some winter bird on it, a redpoll or something perched on some holly. AND IT SAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS ON IT. Season's Greetings and Happy Holidays have been around in these Christmas cards for some 200 years now.
When I was a in the late sixties and early seventies, up until the time that cable TV started making an imaginary thing of it, "Happy Holidays!" was the normal adult thing that people said to each other during the season for the straight reason that "Merry Christmas" sounded more childish and dismissive. "Season's Greetings" was very popular for cards because it looks good in calligraphy and sounds more sophisticated than the other two. The manufactured outrage was ridiculous and always has been, clutching your pearls and gasping about how there's a war on the SINGLE MOST POPULAR HOLIDAY IN THE COUNTRY is insane, and if it keeps up I'm going to start saying HOLLY JOLLY CHRISTMAS Y'ALL just to add some extra childishness to the mix. NO ONE EVER CARED EXCEPT MANUFACTURED OUTRAGE DRONES. OMG so what if Jewish people don't feel LEFT OUT. No one I knew ever thought of it that way but y'all have time to get upset about it why?!?! I was accustomed to saying Happy Holidays because it doesn't sound like a Rankin Bass kiddie cartoon when you're talking to other adults but they want it so...
Since some YouTube video a few years ago I’ve been saying Happy Honda Days and Merry Chrysler. It started as a joke but it’s solid in my brain now.
110% it is a normal way to say it for many many years in many many countries as well. In the Netherlands it has been normal to say 'Fijne feestdagen' (Happy holidays) for as long as I remember. But despite that even here we have a dumb part of christian alt right idiots who are now trying to take over the Republican talking point and claim that is a modern woke attack on Christianity too. Fucking idiots on any side of the political spectrum just look for anything to be angry about.
> I don't know how people can believe that when every December we are bombarded with Christmas shit Thanksgiving has already fallen beneath Santa's tyrannical bootstep. Each year he draws closer and closer to Halloween. The line must be drawn.
Yeah, fuck this Santa guy! *^pls ^don't ^look ^at ^my ^username*
Santa must be stopped, no matter the cost.
Christmas starts earlier every year. if there is a war on Christmas we are losing.
This has very big Mitch Hedberg vibes. "Conservatives used to flip shit over 'happy holidays' . They still do, but they used to too."
"Heh, alright..."
I think they trot it out every year during the holiday season just like they trot out a migrant caravan story every late October during even numbered years.
They do that literally every year. The 'War on Christmas' is a holiday tradition for them. In 2023 Fox was pissed about disabled/black santa decorations
I still hear people complain about Happy Holidays annually. I live in a conservative area unfortunately.
Especially as an election year. The Republican primaries were the wildest things I've ever heard in my life this year. Literally, ads saying "Mike Braun wants to help Donald Trump protect our boarder from the roving gangs of violent, rapist immigrants." ...I live in Indiana, we are landlocked! We are thousands of miles and 3 states away from the Mexican border. Like, it's scary. I'm glad The Boys isn't letting up, conservatives really are that terrifying and insane.
Man, my district's representative is MAGA and I get his newsletters and he's always going to the southern border... his district is *on the Canadian border*. I can see Canada from my house, but he's harping on Mexicans for some reason. There's never a single shred of connection between what he rants about and the actual district he represents. They do not like it when they finally figure out the satire is directed at everyone.
Well, to be fair to your congressman, he has probably reasonably calculated that he would have a hard time getting anyone worked up over the prospect of Canadians coming across the border.
But they put gravy on everything, man. It's just unnatural!
My working theory is that all the seasons have been plugged into being satire of the culture, but it just seems so much more overt this year because it’s dealing with something everyone is at least partially aware of. In the US it’s hard to escape politics, so it’s a lot more visible now. And what alt-right fascist hasn’t had a dream of >!eating out their own ass!!bloody implement!< at the end of episode 3?
I got the feeling that the writers were disappointed by the fact that their already very on the nose critiques of alt-right folk was being applauded by the people they were lambasting. Basically, "Alright you dumb motherfuckers can't see that we are roasting you, even though its *blatantly* obvious, so lets move on from the *not at all subtle metaphor of homelander fucking an actual nazi* and remove all doubt." Sadly, I don't think any level of directness will get the desired results. There are plenty of far right trekkies still somehow =\
I read on this sub that she may have lobotomized herself as a way of dumbing herself down, sort of like the Supe equivalent of smoking weed
Oh, and that makes sense, one of her powers is “mild” regeneration if I remember her introduction for
That makes more sense than what I thought, which was that >!she killed ambrosia.!< yours is way smarter.
The OP explained that that’s why she wants to watch transformer and has may similarities to the Deep because she is stupid (until the regen kicks in)
Yeah when I watched it I wasn't aware that she had any healing powers so it didn't occur to me. I appreciate the info!
It shows her powers in the stats they display on screen in Vought tower when they were discussing new members. One of them is regeneration.
I thought Ambrosia had been killed as well and that the Bloomin' Onion was actually calamari.
One bite and Deep would know. Fried onion has a totally different texture than fried octopus.
The title of the song was pretty much a Fox News headline in 2017. So you’re not wrong.
Succession and White Lotus definitely did/do this also
The difference is those shows make fun of the rich. This show makes fun of the average Todd as well. It's the Todd's of the world that are pissed off.
Todd: "Offence taken!" And the leaves with his turtle.
Ugh, good. He was always going on about his stupid baby!
And his insulin shot!
That guy’s the worst!
That was after he disarmed the IED of dishonesty
And allegedly destroys all his classmates’ yams.
White Lotus (especially season 1) is definitely presenting an honest reflection of the working class's lot in the class struggle also.
Yeah but not making fun of them that much. Nothing compared to the Toddphobia of The Boys S4.
What the Boys DID in my opinion, is the EXACT same thing Starship Troopers did. They satired and mocked these losers so fucking well, that they didn't think it was making fun of them for 3 seasons, they JUST started picking up on it now because the show has made it so fucking obvious they were ALWAYS the butt of the joke and they can't handle not just being the butt of the joke but being forced to realize that they were ALWAYS the butt off the joke they were just too fucking dumb to know. its like a good 1 2 combo.
I was literally JUST talking to my husband about this- the Starship Troopers comparison- when I got to your comment! After the ST movie came out, a lot of people completely missed the point and were actually inspired to enlist (I lived at a military base at the time). It was dumbfounding.
I'm doing my part.
> They satired and mocked these losers so fucking well, that they didn't think it was making fun of them for 3 seasons, No it's just that S4 upped the intensity, which made it less bearable for them.
The satire in The Boys is WAAAAAAAAAAY different from the satire in Succession or White Lotus tho. The Boys does all this to people...neither of those shows does.
Funny enough I think South Park is the closest thing to The Boys in regards to the satire.
i really feel like OP hasnt watched much television lol
There's a very good show on Netflix called "[*Evil*](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9055008/)" that tackles this subject too.
Yeah except those are smarter shows
I agree, but the title here said the Boys was the only show doing this
My first thought upon reading the title was "this guy is being dramatic because tons of shows are doing the same exact thing." More shows than not are engaging in societal commentary at this point. Look at these later seasons of Always Sunny. The Boys is just doing it SUPER on the nose this season. Not even saying that in a bad way.
I definitely feel like the reaction people have is affected by how online or online-aware they are. But that is, of course, just one factor in someone's overall enjoyment.
Most importantly to people's enjoyment is how much it allows them to larp as a film critic and having the least amount of fun possible, at least I assume so based on a lot of people here.
Yeah for the CinemaSins-pilled, this is an unfortunate truth.
Cinema Sins really did a number on amateur movie critics
CinemaWins is much better and less biased. It's just "things to enjoy in the movie", instead of just hating on small details.
> Most importantly to people's enjoyment is ... -- > having the least amount of fun possible
I do think there’s people who are uncomfortable/angry that the show’s mocking them. I also think there’s a lot of people who just don’t think it’s very good, and those two groups are getting conflated.
To be fair I do have some plotline complaints but I’ve kept those to myself thus far to avoid being conflated with the other crowd. Like, I don’t care that Frenchie is bi, I kind of already assumed such, but why is his love interest introduced with an off screen backstory to their relationship and I’m supposed to care???
and we already did the 'frenchie dealing with demons of his past' TWICE already. Once with Lamplighter, then again with Little Nina. First time cleared the air for losing Mallorys kids and lifting that weight. Second was to give Kimiko the push to want to take V again and protect Frenchie. At this point its just emotional torture porn for Frenchie
I agree with this. "Frenchie is BROKEN" is something that has been addressed. At this point we do not have character development but character stagnation. Only Butcher seems to be putting in any work so far this season and then only kinda.
Also MM has always been straight and hard, but hes been an absolute dick recently it feels like. I undestand the anger toward butcher, but dressing down hughie at the rink when hes the one outting his life on the line felt really out of line
I have wondered if they are setting MM up for something. When he dressed down Hughie, I wasn't sure if that wasn't out of line.
I mean it seems pretty clear that he is failing at being the leader of the group. He has for years been the glue for Butcher's abrasive to his team yet result oriented leadership and was seen as the closest to being his equal, but it seems like he isn't up to leading the boys...
he's the mommy, not the daddy
Wasn’t that covered by Butcher reminding him he fucked up at Truthcon because he’s too soft?
Don’t kink shame Frenchie
Its okay hes into it
I just assumed that Frenchie would happily screw anything with a hole. Except maybe marine animals.
"The Eiffel Tower" was named for Frenchie Now I wanna hear him call Hughie a Twink
Oh gawd, they're gonna turn him into Tek-Knight? HE'S GONNA FUCK A METEOR?!? >!Also, he winds up with a tumor "the size of a fist" in his brain?!< Aw maaaaaaan, poor Frenchie. Shoulda just gone an' french-bread jousted when he could, all this could have been avoided.
It's how you frame the complaint, if you're just saying "It's woke bullshit" yeah... Safe to ignore. However, if you're saying the conflict he's having within himself came out of nowhere and needed to have some kind of backstory (or emphasise the parts they're hitting on now more, if I'm forgetting that they did include more of his backstory) or something previously that setups up Frenchie's fall... That's totally reasonable. Like Madame Web or The Acolyte, you could change the genders or make the relationships heterosexual without changing a damn thing about them and they'd still be bad. It's not wokeness that made it bad, it was bad writing that made it bad.
I could care less about Frenchie's sexuality, My issue is that in season one he was this mad genius weapons expert/addict coming up with cool devices and ways to try to take down supes. Now he's just a mopey jilted lover/addict who occasionally punches someone. What happened to the mad genius??
I think people’s problem is when the “wokeness” (using that term but idk what else to call it) comes across as something that’s very pandering and out of no where. If Frenchie was shown to always have this struggle, as you said, most people wouldn’t bat an eye at it… but it’s introduced during season 4, pretty fucking randomly, and that comes across as either “let’s make this character be our pander to the gay audience” and not as sincere or it comes across as “we don’t know how to write characters this season”. And don’t get me wrong, it’s better to say “I don’t mind the character being gay, but this is a half assed attempt and insulting”. Most people that talk shit about “wokeness” are just mad cause there’s a gay character or black character. But I never see people acknowledging that there ARE points where something feels pandering and it can cause some eye roles. When it feels natural, you won’t see anyone make a complaint. But, there’s always gonna be the people that complain no matter what when they see minorities or gays. I personally don’t care either way. But I do get people that get annoyed when certain things just kinda get thrown in there in a half assed attempt.
The writing has gotten bad. Starlight basically doing the same things she did in season 2. Huey being completely useless. A Train doing basically the same thing from season 2. Butcher mostly useless and doing the same things he did between his laser episodes in season 2. Why didn't Victoria Neuman just kill everyone in the van? No reason. Why did Firecracker get a spot on the 7, just because she's pro-Homelander? She's worse than any number of other superheroes and Homelander doesn't care anyway. The Black Noir substitution is just annoying and he's an idiot, given how psychopathic Homelander is. Kimiko is the same, except now we have to hear her spell it out to Frenchie. Ashlee is a wet blanket, again, now with less personality! MM is completely ineffective this season. Ryan is basically competing for the worst written juvenile character this decade. Sage and Homelander's grays are the only interesting thing in this season, so far.
Big agree that Starlight and Hughie have felt pretty aimless for a while now. Considering they used to be basically the main characters and were very emotionally motivating, they’re pretty uninteresting and inert by now. It feels like they just sort of exist to give other people a reason to have association with each other. Like this show opened with Hughie vs A-Train and by now both characters are taking major backseats. I wish they could juggle interesting plot lines better instead of funneling all the drama and interest into basically just Homelander. Homelander is interesting and all but he should be the main baddy not the main-main character imo
I mean this is pretty much what happens when you have a plotline that really should have finished in the first 3 - 4 seasons at best. Now everything feels aimless because everything is aimless.
> Why did Firecracker get a spot on the 7, just because she's pro-Homelander? She's worse than any number of other superheroes and Homelander doesn't care anyway. Because she's part of Sage's plan to rile up Homelander's followers, and then use the reaction against the Homelander's to justify martial law type moves.
The first two episodes this season felt really sloppy and jumbled. The dialog was way less sharp and concise, motivations and consequences felt disconnected, generalized and not properly tailored. Things seem to be coming together better through this third episode, so we'll see, I guess. Sage, for me so far, is the highlight of the new season. That actress can do more with a side glance or a lifted eyebrow than most can do with a oratory. She's a cool blast. The abrupt intro of Frenchie"s new affair seemed clumsy, regarding pacing. The resultant bickering with Kimiko seems off, too, as a result - these two are one of the emotional hearts of the show we rely on. Their sudden abrasiveness hasn't been well explained. Somethings missing. Annie is a major character, and she's been left to react, mostly, on the sidelines. If she's leading a movement, where`s the engagement? MM`s sudden promotion has hardly any context. We're told he's working for the Gov, but don't see much to flesh that out, leaving clues and motivation unaddressed. The new Noir's "comedy" is embarrassing writing and would not be allowed *at all* by Vought or Homelander in that world. There are plenty of opportunities for characters to do actions that would satisfy the plot, the drama or even their own motivations... but the writers seem to be continually obfuscating them for no good reason. Or none that make sense. Anyway, it has started to pick up for me in this third episode. Let's hope it continues to come together and deliver. *edited for spelling
This is such a good summary of the issues. On top of that is the weird logic holes. You bring up Victoria not killing the boys, and I’d add Homelander not killing any of them either. The inconsistent stuff with temp V and regular V. No clear idea of what hurts or kills any character (and the boys gave up figuring that out anyway). It’s like they got to the end game of the show too quickly and there’s still too much money to be made so Amazon is still paying to make it. Now they gotta add all these poorly thought out side plots and rehash all the previous character development (Frenchie, Kimiko, Annie, MM, all of them) just to burn episodes.
I’m bi and I think that they needed to check a box and were like, oh yeah this guy is bi, and we don’t have Maeve anymore, so lets fire up that gay sex! I’ve been told that this is homophobic and that I don’t like it when Frenchie is having gay sex because I must only think it’s hot when women are bi. I’m bisexual; it’s all hot. That’s not the problem. Let’s just all forget that shows do this constantly; bring up gay relationships to get viewership and check a box. But no, it can’t be that, and it’s homophobic to criticize lazy writing.
I think, buy and large, people really don’t care if the political message agrees or disagrees with them as long as the show is well written. The Wire is probably the best example, I’ve seen so many people who disagree with the shows concepts enjoy that show and love it. But people will dislike a show quite heavily if it’s writing is sacrificed for its political commentary which is what’s happening with season 4 a good way to look at why people are disliking the season so hard because it’s ‘polticial’ it is “it’s not bad because it’s political, it’s political because it’s bad.”
This is precisely it. I know plenty of people who didn’t care about the shows politics because it was a good show, and those people are talking about how dumb this season is because the writing has tanked. The fact that it was making fun of them wasn’t an issue so long as they did a good job of it.
hell I even agree with most of the shows politics and I really dislike the nose dive in writing, it feels really lazy, and honestly is going to date this show super hard.
True, "critical supe theory" "defund the supes" it's so fucking lazy
I agree, it's crazy to me that many people only now have realised the show is critiquing them. However for me the commentary on American politics is too on the nose this time. I perfectly understood the parallels between reality and the show since the beggining, so spelling it out like we're stupid this season felt like lazy writing to me and one of the reasons the season is a little flat imo... As it turns out it was needed for the dumb q anon types to realise what the show is actually about.
Exactly, it feels like they are spoon feeding it. “Critical supe theory” had my eyes rolling. Also, I liked when it was subtle and clever because I don’t want to just be spoon fed this crap that angers me everywhere else. I want shows that hint to reality and use subtle ways to do it. I, and I feel many people, don’t want an “unflinchingly honest mirror” because we do, in part, want to be entertained and forget about this idiotic bullshit for a little bit.
Yeah, the season 2 scene showing Fat Neil’s slow radicalization comes to mind as the gold standard: show, don’t tell
I love how unfazed I was to seeing him referred to as “Fat Neil.” That’s just who he is to me even after all these years
I honestly think the Trump fans going around in Homelander costumes at rallies *did something* to the writers. Like no, we can't hold back, we do have to be that blatant, because these people will not actually realize they're being made fun of until we shove it down their throats...
The writing's so on-the-nose it needs rhinoplasty.
This is the classic entertainment industry dodge - "we know our show is mediocre but NAZIs don't like our show and if you don't like the show then you must be siding w the NAZIs" Writing this season is ok/meh... a continuation of the crap from later episodes last season. The whole tone of the show has shifted from the first seasons - it's just campy shock satire now with zero stakes and not nearly as clever as it thinks it is.
I was so confused by the ice skating scene. Almost all the shocking gore and violence in the show has come from the supes. They're the game changer in this world that makes it different than ours. They're the problem that is the source of the horrible things that happen to people. But after Homelander accidentally kills one they panic and it's just a blood bath of people slicing eachother up with skates while trying to escape. What was the point of it in the overall story of superheroes being uncontrolled and awful? That ice skaters are also?
Thank you, I saw so many people saying it was hilarious and great and I was like "what the fuck is this? That's not how ice skates work". It was like I was watching a dumb comedy sketch.
Just shock factor that's getting boring and old. A trend game of thrones started and execs think that's what audiences care about.
I see this a lot with a lot of modern shows. The Boys, Star Wars Acolyte, stuff like that. There's one (usually the larger) group that just dislikes the show for sincere reasons, like writing, plot, issues with characterization, etc. Then there's another group that's just horrifically racist/homophobic/etc and "anti-woke". And while the anti-woke crowd is so stupid it hurts, there is a level of irony of the coping fans and the fans that can't help but deepthroat their favorite IP's or megacorporations using the anti-woke crowd as an excuse for why their favorite thing has been reviewing badly, ignoring any actual complaints and just slapping a "dumb racist/homophobe/etc" sticker on anyone that tries to say it's bad.
The Wire: am I a joke to you
you want it one way, but it’s the other way
The Wire shows a real view of society, but it's understandable problems. It isn't forcing people to reconcile that there is a large chunk of America worried about adrenochrome harvesting. It's the surrealism being shoved in people's face that causes uncomfortableness.
well the Wire focused on blending quality writing with what it was saying politically. It gives you all the evidence to make your own conclusions and trusts you to do so. Everything was shown, not told. but the latest season feels like the writers kinda gave up on even trying with their satire. Wow gee, I wonder what ‘Critical Supe theory’ is parodying, or the pizza gate references. I’m not even saying that the commentary was subtle before, but it was CLEVER before. Not just references to real world things, which may I add, really kinda screws the world building of the show. It’s making it feel more and more like the writers just took our world and put supes into it. The first season did a great job at making the audience feel the Boys universe, Supes felt integrated into the world akin to Mickey Mouse. But I feel like in season 3 and now season 4, the world is beginning to lose its feel. Especially with the product placements in three that really irked me and before you go “well that’s the point, that the real world is absurd and crazy enough.” I just have to point how lazy of an excuse that is. Why would I watch the show if I could just watch whatever news channel for the same effect? And that’s not a good reason to not even try with the satire, like imagine if Mel Brooks just retold history 1 to 1 in “History of the World Part 1” citing how ‘history was absurd enough’ or ‘Life of Brian’ being a 1:1 Jesus retelling.
I said this a couple days ago and people got mad at me LMAO
I’m all for this take. There’s some truth to it. But the execution has not been as sharp as years past and that’s the reason why there’s so many critics.
yeah i think one of the things that's been annoying is that what they're doing recently (s3-4) isn't really political commentary or satire. it's more like "haha look this thing is like this other thing, aren't we clever?" and it's done in a way that doesn't provide any insight into the issue they're referencing. last season, trump quotes were randomly thrown into homelander's dialogue just as a little wink-wink even though it added literally nothing and also went against homelander's established characterization (speaking specifically to him telling people to go out while an explosive soldier boy was wandering the city) the other thing i find distasteful is how careless it feels sometimes. there were instances in the s4 premiere where they referenced some currently controversial issues on all sides of the political spectrum (people subbing "jews" with "zionists" to be antisemitic, amber heard) in literal throwaway dialogue. at that point it feels exploitative and cheap, like you've thrown things in for shock value rather than to actually say anything meaningful. i'm staunchly leftist but i just don't think they're doing a good job with it anymore, and pretending that every single person who criticizes the show is a right-wing nut is lame and intellectually dishonest. conversely, i thought the stormfront stuff in season 2 depicting right-wing indoctrination through social media was great. it felt like they really fleshed that out and gave it the narrative space it deserved. i still think stormfront's line: "people like what i have to say, they believe in it -- they just don't like the word nazi" was very astute and on the whole she was a great addition to the show! so... it's honestly upsetting to know that they can actually do a good job with their politics but are instead choosing low-hanging fruit to put into their show for viral social media moments, or something.
You said it better than I could've. I'm a leftist and I definitely agree they did a fantastic job on Stormfront. This season I am enjoying watching what Sage is up to. But otherwise, many of the subplots so far aren't as interesting. Particularly Frenchies. I get what they're going for, it just hasn't worked IMO.
It doesn't help that Frenchie's sub plot every single season feels the same. Tension between him and Kimiko and being haunted by his past.
He was a great character in season 1 I think but they've really dropped the ball with him in every season since. Not even just with him and Kimiko but just Frenchie overall, he hardly even feels like a member of The Boys at times now.
Probably season 5 too lol
It's Family Guy jokes, where the *reference* is what you're supposed to point and gawk at, not what's happening that USES the reference. There was a Youtube vid I caught, that pretty succinctly put it: Family Guy had a cutaway joke that was Abbott and an Owl. Abbott kept asking for the players' name, and the Owl, obviously, replied with "Who?" That's...that's the whole bit. If you didn't understand the reference to "Who's on First?", then it was weird. Meanwhile, the Simpsons had Principal Skinner and Super Nintendo Chalmers attempt to do "Who's on First", and both completely ruin their halves of the bit simply based off of how their personalities interact. Which fits, it's funny, and it doesn't require you having knowledge of a stand-up bit from 1938. The Boys needs to do more of the second style, allowing their characters to *be their own characters*, instead of simply warbling a buzzword or phrase that is in our current lexicon and hoping that does the same job. I cannot believe that Homelander would be aware of, nor would use the term, "Libtard" in any capacity, because it would imply that he understood what "Liberals and Conservatives" are, *let alone giving a shit about either side*. He speaks in empty platitudes (or hurls generic insults), unless it's about himself in which case it's VERY glowing about how great (and powerful) he is. To offer up a *specific* insult that would be generated from a wheelhouse he wouldn't be caught 3 miles from is disingenuous to his character. (If anything, they should've had him toss the term at *anyone* talking badly to him, just to show that he didn't understand the terms' connotations either.) It'd be like if he started calling people "Soy Boys", an insult that *itself* is based off of an insulting insinuation from the right ("Ha ha, their baby formula contained estrogen, so they're totally a *girl* now" --> "Soy Boy", which is....just confusing if you weren't up-to-snuff with whatever they were rambling on about). Homelander wouldn't know nor care what "soy" would mean in a political phrasing, he'd simply call you a stupid motherfucker and threaten to dump you off of the Empire State Building. Or insult you superficially, via your looks or voice or something. Y'know, like "the FUCK am I gonna do with a blind superhero?" He didn't also try to call him an undocumented worker or anything, he just went for the blatantly obvious. This is the wrong kind of nuance for his character, and it doesn't fit with what we've seen so far. Edit: Changed to reflect the correct origins of "Soy Boy".
I don’t think that automatically makes it good political commentary though. Especially for a television show.
It’s definitely not the only one as OP claims and not really the best one at it. It’s good but idk about the best
yeah, it’s very mid. a smaller thing i noticed though, MM went from having memorabilia of the black panthers to having a barack obama picture in his room
The problem isn’t the boys becoming too political, the problem is the boys becoming too on the nose. A good allegory of something shouldn’t have to spell out what it’s parodying to the audience, which it is doing this season.
Show might as well be Law and Order the way scenarios are ripped straight from the headlines
Yeah, there's "current year" references in this season that don't make sense to me. It dates the show, making it awkward in the future, and really kind of breaks suspension.
“It dates the show”. Exactly. This season the jokes and references they are using are years old at this point, we are waiting over a year to see this show and when it finally comes out they are major part of their story line is to rehash old jokes in a way that was not as clever as it was in the past
This gave me PTSD flashbacks to the gamer gate Anita sarkeesian episode jesus christ
The show has always been on the nose. Hell, the corporate pandering mockery is on the nose. I don't really understand this critique.
Everyone’s acting like the satire should be more subtle but the show has been building this tension every season to reach a climax and we’re now in the second to last season. How can they stay subtle when trying to represent the boiling point that society has reached at this point in the overall plot?
Its always been this on the nose. The early seasons just commented on crazy catholics and extreme right wing white Christians. Newer seasons drop the religion stuff in favour for the downright insane alt right Conspiracy people There's no difference in how on the nose these groups have been commented on, its just that the irl alt right is just more of a ridiculous group, so the adaptation of them looks more on the nose cos of it. I think the show has a good few problems recently, but god its never been subtle.
Thank you. 100%. I don't get it. Was Super Lives Matter subtle to people last season?
... I also thought last season was way too on the nose, to the point where the subtext didn't even make sense within the text. (They wanted their Covid allegory so bad they told us that Conservatives are insufficiently paranoid about terrorist attacks and don't make a big enough deal about our nation being attacked. Like... come on.)
you see, homelander is Donald Trump and starlight is Joe Biden
🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 media literate 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 1590 on SAT 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 (they got one grammar question wrong about pronounce 😔😔😔😔)
Ahh here it goes again with The Boys fanbase. The fans constant pseudo intellectual defense where they praise the show as realistic and something people are too soft to handle as a way to dismiss valid criticism again.
yep, all their justifications are basically "Haha dumb right winger fool, you just realized the show is making fun of you" They literally don't want to listen to any criticism, and if you say anything you're considered a right wing maga supporter. It's so ironic yet really sad at the same time
As much as I'm liking this season, the references are exhausting and really break the immersion. This shit is becoming south park episodes. The worst part is homelander being bossed around by the woman who clearly spends too much time on reddit.
To be fair, you have to have very high media literacy to understand The Boys. The satire is extremely un-subtle, and without a solid grasp of modern American politics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head.
I feel like the show had something really interesting to say in Seasons 1 and 2. However, seasons 3 and 4 so far have been just: “ha ha, we referenced this thing that exists in real life, ha ha” without saying anything particularly deep (lol) or interesting.
and I also want to point out how it’s really beginning to wear the world building/immersion thin. Like season 1 we’re introduced to a world where it truly feels like Supes are integrated into corporate consumerism culture, akin to Mickey Mouse. With A-Train’s face on beer bottles, Homelander on just about everything, it felt unique and personable. season 2 wasn’t too egregious with the immersion, aside from the one Pewdiepie reference. But Season 3 and 4 really have kinda destroyed any uniqueness to the world. Like, season 3 had distracting product placement (Butcher orders connect 4 off of Amazon prime for example), and season 4 really feels like the writers just gave up trying with the world, just putting in references to whatever political thing. and the thing is, it’s really going to date this show hard. In 20 years, it’s going to really feel old and dated. Heck, it’s beginning to feel that way already
I think it’s definitely about scale. I’ve been rewatching season 1 and it really does feel like superheroes a global sensation rather than purely being centered in America. We’ve seen Homelander commit horrible atrocities in Africa and we’ve seen supe terrorists from other countries. This season has been based entirely in the United States and it doesn’t really feel like other parts of the world are affected from the audience’s point of view. I would like to see conflict and the effects of supes and Vought across the globe to give a lot of the political stakes this season real meaning. So far, it’s mainly just been elections and right vs. left.
Some British Supes would be interesting. Or even just the UK/Europe worried about Vought/Homelander/The Election
>Like season 1 we’re introduced to a world where it truly feels like Supes are integrated into corporate consumerism culture, akin to Mickey Mouse. Exactly. It felt somewhat believable that most people would actually love Vought and its Supes. Now everything involving the supes is so obviously dumb and horrible. Like when Nathan was telling his sons A-train never saved anyone? I knew Vought scripted lots of saves, but I didn't think the supes never saved *anyone*. That kinds of changes the entire situation with Homelander and Maeve on the plane.
Yeah they prioritized satirizing the real world too much that they forgot to continue developing their own one.
direful angle languid smoggy seemly dull liquid aback dam sip *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I am going to go fucking crazy if I see another show reference Elon Musk. If I wanted a parody of the news I would just watch SNL or something. That’s what this feels like. One way too long and overdone SNL sketch. I wanted to watch a show bashing superheroes and exploring the complexity of individuals with insane powers while exploring societal issues with clever subtext. Not an “unflinchingly honest mirror”. We all have enough of that without it seeping into all of our fucking entertainment and escape.
This is my exact problem with it. It's gotten way too lazy the more they try to make this about maga. And I fear it will get lost to time like anything that tries too hard to make modern culture references its entire identity.
Feels like the writers got too high on their own supply
It's no coincidence that the show's decline coincides with the protagonists using Compound V (or Temp V if you want to be technical). The show's entire conflict rested on the power imbalance between the supes and the protagonists. Once the protagonists begin taking Temp V, then everyone is a supe and the power imbalance is gone. Suddenly, that whole core conflict of the show that gave it that wonderful tension evaporates and the show has no where to go that feels anything different from the countless other super hero movies/shows we've seen. The writers needed a new conflict, so they chose the conflicts of real life. Unfortunately, it doesn't make for anywhere nearly as good of a show as the original conflict of the David vs goliath story of non-supes vs supes.
Same, there are no stakes whatsoever. Some of the messaging is funny and creative but yeesh. Gen V had a solid mix of everything though
Sure it's a mirror but copying language of the alt-right trolls word for word seems very low effort (for example: supe lives matter/critical supe theory/january 6th/pizzagate etc.). I hate seeing that shit in real life and it's not even funny in the show because the right wing has become so ridiculous that a parody of them doesn't work since it's the exact same thing. I feel like the show was more subtle and clever in the first two seasons. Stormfront was at least actually scary and an interesting character. "They like what I say, the just don't like the word Nazi." That's miles better than what we get now. Or maybe the novelty of the concept of fascist superheroes just wears off, IDK.
I feel the same way. That Stormfront line is probably one of the best lines in the show, and this season is never going to top that. It just keeps referencing real life shit and does nothing with it. Also, it keeps forcing in references like Epstein and pete davidson, it’s super lazy writing
The Epstein reference was kinda fucked up to. Everyone on the right and left knows he didn’t kill himself but the show seemed to make it look like that situation wasn’t as serious as it is.
They stuffed it up and got it backwards. If she'd have said something like "we all know Epstein was really a Supe and they had to silence him" then it feels more batshit conspiracy-styled for the character. To have Firesparklerwoman (wtf is her name?) agree with the general IRL internet consensus just helps make her look normal. Also it would make the concept of an IRL orgy island being owned and operated by a Supe, for Supes and the Rich, fit in with the overall theme of The Boys where many Supes engage in that sort of activity such as Herogasm, etc. Sorta like how in Men in Black they said Elvis didn't die, he just went home. Simple reference, easy joke, and blends real people/history with the world-building they're doing in the movie's first act.
My question is, what's the actual goal of the satire? The people who back it up, and praise the Boys satire, treat it like amazing commentary that breaks boundaries, but let's be honest, all it does, is appeal to people who already agree. No one changes their political perspective after watching the Boys, if they did, their convictions were probably not that strong in the first place. Imo the satire is fundamentally pointless, cause 1. It's not clever, so you can't appreciate it on that level. 2. It only appeals to people who agree
its the Rob Benedict scene, just the writers all eating their own ass.
If you pause the episode during that scene and look up the Xray trivia, there is this message: > Actor Rob Benedict wants us to remind everyone that he studied Shakespeare at Northwestern University. There is no contractual obligation for us to carry out this request. This is merely a kind gesture.
If I wanted an unflinching honest mirror of today’s society I would just watch cnn or fox.
It's hard to watch. Just like how they never get a real win in the show beyond maybe taking down a minor supe, the public is never gonna win
Yeah this show is only for the truly media literate, where if you have any criticism you will be told the show is actually making fun of you and the show isn’t for you
It's strange how people deflect any critique on season 4 because it must be "because conservatives finally realized the show was mocking them", completely ignoring that they've been complaining about the show on Twitter or whatever for like 2+ years now.
And they are just saying the same thing they said when people complained that s3 didn't do anything.
Anyone who criticizes anything about the show’s themes or satire is a secret Trump Supporter and probably participated in Jan 6 tbh.
You joke, but I swear this how it was after S3 released. Any criticism of any aspect of the writing led to vicious downvoting by fans saying that you're far-right, misogynistic, racist, etc. I remember I vaguely floated the idea that maybe Black Noir was misremembering his memories from his time in Payback, and I got bombarded with comments saying I'm a victim blamer. I simply was curious about an alternate take where maybe Soldier Boy was not the psycho they made him out to be, and even that led to meltdowns. The mods also did a shit job moderating as well. They let these assholes say whatever they wanted.
it's true I saw n8ures1stgreen at the capital he took a shit on nancy pelosi's desk it was fucked up.
Jan 6! That's the day of Homelander's trial! Very clever.
I'm not American though, and I definitely don't care about your politics either.
As a fellow non-American I don't think we have the luxury to simply not care about American politics. Directly or indirectly we're all going to be affected by them ☹️
Has this guy not seen South Park who’s been doing that for decades
Previous seasons were political, but it wasn't politics first..it was more about the characters and their archs....now it feels more about the politics...the plot lines are more about making a political/cultural point rather than telling a story with unique characters who themselves are parodies of classic characters.
It's not that it makes me uncomfortable, it's just boring. The political commentary, isn't even really commentary at all since it says nothing new and just copies moments from real life events almost beat for beat. When the show does the commentary on Hollywood and the entertainment industry it's at it's best, when it's trying to do the whole culture war shit, it's boring.
It feels like the writers just went on Wikipedia and looked up "Right Wing Conspiracy Theories" and copy-pasted 90% into the script.
That's why I didn't think this show is really going to stand the test of time. I'm ten years it's going to seem unrelatable and stale.
Politically The Boys has barely budged an inch but I don’t think the satire is clever any more. At its worst it comes off as stuff you’d read on r/politicalhumor. Just because satire is correct doesn’t mean it’s funny or clever. The writers nailed it that Trump has no real beliefs or values and is only motivated by a childish desire to be popular. “Homelander is Trump” is not clever. “The War on Christmas” is idiotic but it’s also so idiotic that making fun of it is beating a dead horse at this point, that scene feels like it was taken from the Bush or Obama era.
The only one? Have you seen... The Wire The Plot Against America The Curse Succession White Lotus Mad Men (yes, still relevant today if you think about it a little more deeply) Even Watchmen. Etc.
It feels like what people online think the world is like. They highlight extremes. Most people irl are pretty chill.
You end up forgetting that equally it shows the other side as what basically just amounts to be useful idiots to keep fanning the flames for Homelanders/Sages ultimate goals, being right or not aside- they end up being yet another tool in the plan. Both the Homelanders and the Starlighters are being equally played like Chess pieces for the bigger goal.