Even a cursory glance through this subreddit will tell you you're not alone. The last two episodes in particular have been rough, and blame has been split in varying proportions between Troy's GM-ing for PF2e, cast engagement, and the AP itself just being a mess.
FWIW, I'm still hoping they can pull *Gatewalkers* out of the fire, but idk. I've been listening more to *Legacy of the Ancients* and *Blood of the Wild* in the meantime, and I'm enjoying them a lot more.
I also think Hubert Hedge is fine. Y'all are just mean.
I'm with you in hoping they can right the ship on gatewalkers. Maybe Troy should consult with Matthew and get a little cohesion in this narrative instead of dumbly walking from fight to fight without a sense of purpose.
To his credit, Troy's running the adventure pretty close to how it's written. The problem is that it's just not a very good adventure, and that's cold comfort to your players and audience. I feel like he was more willing to change stuff in *Giantslayer*, though I'm not as familiar with those books to say for sure.
Hopefully the last few weeks have been a wakeup call for the party to start playing a little smarter and for Troy to start making more edits to the AP. He's got plenty of professionals to talk advice from, at least.
iirc, Book 5 of Giantslayer was consistently polled as the single worst book in a 1e AP in a few different places for a while.
It still was fun to listen to, even if it wasn't as dynamic and masterfully written as the voyage up the river Esk. In terms of tone -- not the tone of the material, but the tone of the table -- it's still night and day from GCP 2.0.
In my current online game, we're on book5 now and boy, it's really something. Surprising that it's rated the worst book, there are some real stinkers out there.
I don’t think that’s actually to his credit. He picked that AP out of dozens of other first and second edition options and over home-brewing something and he has so many peers in and out of the network he could turn to learn from if he’s not comfortable personalizing the adventure to better fit his group on his own. In my experience as a player, GM, and podcast listener, that’s pretty much the default because the AP writers can’t be expected to anticipate and address every possible group/approach.
Oh, I'm definitely damning with faint praise. I get why he picked this AP from a thematic standpoint, but it's on him to make it work at the table. Same as any other GM, if not worse because this is their job and people's healthcare is on the line.
This is an important factor I think. You shouldn't GM an AP straight from the pages IMO, you should use it as a foundation and build the walls around the players and characters you got - something the AP writers cannot know and do (except using pregens).
Some of the best parts from GS were stuff they created from, and around, the PCs. There's been too little like that in GCP2 IMO, Troy did flesh out the npcs but we need a Brandyr, something to give the PCs a goal other than just surviving the next encounter. And we need some XP-farming fights to be pruned as well.
I'm not sure it's a fair comparison to be honest. Giantslayer goes pretty much by the book for a while. Even when they start adding in their own stuff to tie their characters to the world, it's still running side by side with Troy running the AP by the books.
I don't think anything even really diverges until a character dies (trying to avoid spoilers) and an NPC from their backstory starts turning into a main antagonist.
I'm rambling, but my point is that we are still early into Gatewalkers book 1. There's plenty of time to make the story their own.
Well, Gatewalkers *is* only a 3 book AP compared to Giantslayer's 6 books.
Edit; https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/024/574/Screen_Shot_2017-11-06_at_12.41.31_PM.jpg
Honestly, Legacy is my favorite actual play podcast right now. Its so good. Skid knows how to cut through crunch and get to the best bits without getting bogged down and also feeling like you're not missing out on anything.
Him just hands off for the Black Arrow fort siege, until they start talking about the lizards and he's like "guys. Yall can just sneak by"
Yeah, I love Skid as a GM. He clearly loves the setting and adventure, and he's got a great sense of how to keep the players engaged. I'm actually really hoping one day the network can pull him in to run *Seven Dooms for Sandpoint*! Though I've still got a few seasons to catch up on, so I can wait.
Lol same. Or maybe a Return of the Runelords? The late PF1e Rise sequel.
I think it boils down to Skid still feeling like its a passionate hobby and Troy sees it as a business/job.
Yeah, the feeling is just so different in each show. Skid is just so conversational and ready for whatever the party wants to do. I could listen to Binky and Alfie bullshit about the family history all day. Even in *Blood of the Wild*, Jared messes up on the rules with some frequency -- but he keeps things moving and everyone engaged. The characters immediately made connections with each other and the setting, and it felt great!
Meanwhile, how many times has the party in *Gatewalkers* just said outright that they're having a bad time? How many more characters are going to die with their secret/tragic backstories unexplored?
The vibe is just not consistent. I get that *GW* is the main show and has more pressure, but for all their talk of trying to avoid "bad radio," I feel like they end up with less **good** radio by comparison.
You have a great point. There is also such little down time and conversation in Gatewalkers. There is like, 10-15 seconds of Hubert Hedge (who i admittedly enjoy), and thats it. Meanwhile there are swathes of sections in Legacy that feel like breaths of fresh air. Skid being great at NPCs helps, but the main issue is that he takes time to talk to the players.
Gatewalkers is severe combat after severe combat. I cant remember the last decent conversation with NPCs since the farm, when Joe made the drawing of the bird.
They have some fun interactions -- Rameus passing around the flayleaf and being surprised he got it back comes to mind. But the characters don't really have the time or place to chill and learn more about each other, and most of the plot action is only tangential to the "Missing Moment" central mystery.
Like, it's conceptually cool that they're on Castrovel, and no spoilers, but it gets cooler (if they survive long enough to see that stuff). But it feels really disconnected from the themes and plot of the AP. This little maneuver already cost them a party member... and for what? We're not really getting great character or plot work.
I think it’s weird why people hate Hubert… In the book, it’s almost advised to not use him (which ironically, Troy does a lot of times with any npc who joins, but this time the book is on his side). It states in the book, “Though not particularly bright or helpful in a fight—if necessary, use statistics for a giant porcupine and apply the weak template.” I think it’s very reasonable to ask, “why does he even exist in this journey?” Well in the AP, he’s kinda like a random person you save, and that’s about it.
Personally with people complaining about the campaign, I feel like it’s just cause the adventure path itself is just an “ok” story. It’s on my lowest rating in terms of adventure paths, but I really did enjoy the last book. If you’re not into the elf planet and lore, then this adventure is not for you and will be a slow grind till later in the other books, my players were learning it all but even I was very bored with it. I think glass cannon chose this adventure because it held similar topics with some of their other campaigns. I was hoping they would play the new tian xia campaign but maybe next time. Quest for the Frozen Flame is amazing, and I suggest people who haven’t listened in give it a try, it’s very fun and there are very few moments where the game mechanics are debated over confusion unlike gatewalkers lol.
IMO: they need more Hubert Hedges. They need more characters that they interact with for more than a few episodes and don't leave behind when they move on to the next plot place. Because right now, the party seriously lacks grounding.
We met Doctor Ritalson once and heard from him maybe a handful of times. That's more than we ever got on-screen with his organization of other Gatewalkers. We're probably never going back to Seven Arches or Thinlands Farm, and we're probably never going back to the Thinlands or Castrovel once they leave.
All we've got consistently are these characters, and they're having a few small, cute interactions while sitting on their backstory stuff for a reveal that might not come until long after they're dead. They need to either open up or get some new blood (PC or NPC) to bounce off of.
Ironically, I think they're going to get one in Book 2, and they might hate it.
Idk, it’s something for you to figure out lol. I think it’s fine, I do find combat to be absolutely boring but that’s cause they’re playing boring classes to me: a monastic archer monk is gonna do nothing but shoot arrows, a low level psychic literally only focuses on 2 cantrips, a cloistered cleric is just your typical cleric, & an investigator. They’re not really a flashy group, nor really amazing in combat together, only magus is really melee focused. This leads to really long combat to me, which I’m hoping gets fixed with the new character getting in. The starfinder campaigns eventually had 6 people, and it was pretty fun in my opinion. Just find their other games to listen to if this campaign is not your cup of tea
I think Hubert is pretty funny. I think Troy uses him pretty well for comedy, the cast plays along with it well. I will agree that there are some weak points in the game, but it's improved a lot from the first 15 or so episodes. Unfortunately, they still aren't great at tactics or remembering how things work. Bottle caps/hero points are discussed too much when they should just use them as normal. The game is deadly enough as it is, and the party comp isn't great. I've also read the AP can be brutal in parts like the snail fight. All in all though, it's pretty good. I do enjoy legacy and botw more, and I just started the strange aeons live shows again picking up after Chicago last year. Those have been good so far.
I think Troy's doing a good job with Hubert. Absolutely he's being played to be annoying to the PCs, but I think he keeps measured enough in how much he uses him that its still enjoyable and not annoying to the players per se. He turns it up a bit when it doesn't look like it'll matter (like when they fought the monkey thing) but held back, and even made him useful, when things were dire (the snail fight). I think its a good contrast to Bubbles where I think Troy just way, way, way overdid the bit. The bubbles bit, in and of itself, was/is amusing. But Troy overdid it and it got very annoying and unenjoyable to me. Made it hard to watch. So hopefully Troy can apply to Bubbles what he's done with Hubert. I thought he really nailed it with Hubert in the latest episode for instance.
You're not clicking with it, it happens, nothing wrong with that.
For what it's worth I don't click with it either. I know I like everyone involved, enjoy most of the other Glass Cannon shows they're on. Gatewalkers is just... Well, apparently I have my issues with it. It's just a shame it happens to be the flagship show.
Exactly. Although I'm enjoying it myself, I totally get that others won't. It goes back to the old saying "You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you can't please all the people all the time."
That's totally ok! If people are still watching and engaging then it's unlikely things will change, the only thing that would send a clear message at this point is if people stopped watching.
I'm in the camp that Bottlecaps, System Mastery, Player Synergy, or whatever else are not the core problem.
To me the core problem is the Gatewalkers AP kinda sucks. Now parts of Giantslayer sucked as an AP as well but I think all those other issues pile on on a way they didn't then and just make it not as fun.
They all are amazing and hilarious personalities. I love their role play and tabletalk. But Gatewalkers the story is not doing them any favors. I feel like Gatewalkers has Rise of Skywalker syndrome where they constantly are being shoved along to the next set piece and mcguffin and never have time to breath and roleplay organically outside of their campfire. And they constantly are moving forward never returning to previous locations. Why all that time on 7 arches or the villages in the lead up to Kaneepo?
There isn't a Trunau to care about or a Sandpoint like in Runelords. It reminds me of Strange Aeons but that show is barely about the AP story anymore and is just a vehicle for their comedy live show. It has a very different feel than what the main show should have as a successor to Giantslayer.
I wish Troy would heavily edit the AP to either give the characters more connections and buy in or just start cutting pointless encounters. For example there was no reason to do both the monkey AND the snail. They both serve the same purpose of introducing the danger of the jungle. This party is not combat focused, they are much more about the story and role play ywt Troy runs the AP like they are combat enthusiasts. It slowd down the show and story to a crawl and just makes some of their 2e weaknesses worse.
So yeah I am enjoying the show and actually liked the last two episodes so much I watched them live but I agree with Joe of not feeling the story at all and thinking it is way too reliant on it's mystery box stringing them along.
Absolutely agree, I just can't get on board with Gatewalkers; conceptually it sounds cool but the actual adventure has fallen so flat to me from a listener standpoint. I would've killed to see them playing something like Kingmaker, Agents of Edgewatch, or Strength of Thousands instead.
The game was flawed because most of the characters haven’t been as fun as usual (and the story’s pretty scattered). I think they realized that and they’ve leaned into personalities more lately. I’m really looking forward to seeing what Matthew’s got up his sleeve.
And I live for Troy’s npcs.
You know what, probably i don't like him much cause it seems he is giving him a lot more voice than actual PC, not his fault entirely. I get that he is fun like in the last episode and troy is amazing at doing weird unnerving npc like the scarabs in giant slayer or razmataz but i feel like zephir and foxlady(don't remeber her name) and talia (again not sure that's her name) are very strong charachters or given enough voice. Loving buggles and brother remius, Joe cracked me up with is "you know what fire is?" I really laughed histericcaly at that but also remius is kind of a very well flashed out characher.
The issue is that the players clearly aren't having fun, and that ruins the listening experience. The combination of a lack of cohesion from the party, shitty rolls and from my understanding, a not great AP, makes for tough listening sometimes.
Also Hubert is totally fine as an NPC. There have been plenty of other annoying NPCs
That's fine, but there have been several players over the past few episodes say "this is not fun." I'm sure some of that is played up for the cameras, but playing in a game where you are constantly shit on (whether it's bad encounters, luck, die rolls whatever) isn't very fun.
I'd personally say they're having fun in spite of the prewritten adventure, not because of it. Like having fun playing a crappy video game because you're doing it while hanging out with friends.
You are not alone.
The AP is just not as engaging and I think that’s the biggest issue.
I’m still trying to figure out what is the meat of the “quest” they are on.
I love when Troy’s NPCs, they typically are some of the funniest bits in the show.
I’m just still struggling to get engaged with the characters, Ramius is starting to get fleshed out a bit but that’s it so far.
Skid is one of the best but Buggles isn’t grabbing me yet, could just be the way he is playing him as being so shy and I’m confident he will come around.
Giantslayer had so many iconic characters, they were very engaging right out of the gate, these characters not so much.
Hopefully Matthew can get it fired up here and give his new character some larger then life personality.
They are #36 episodes into Gatewalkers, that's like 6-7 normal game night sessions. Imagine what you could do with 7 sessions in: Caverns of Thracia, Maze of the Blue Medusa, Ravenloft/Curse of Stradh, The Isle of Dread (etc) and compare that to Gatewalkers. So far not a good adventure path, also, I have no idea why the dynamic is so off between the players. Love all other shows.
Aeons, Legacy, GITC, Chaos all rule. I’ve been catching up on everything after a few months off. Based on the commentary tho… leaving Gate for last. Sounds a bit of a mess.
I stopped listening awhile ago. You do need to watch it more, which hinders the podcast part. I can’t picture battles as much, I need to consult the video to appreciate them. Yay, that’s no longer a podcast.
The lack of tension and emotional resonance, and that I just don’t care if any of the characters die. I still re listen to the first campaign, and the first two seasons of Raiders.
I really think they’re spread to thin. It’s not just the number of shows, it’s that shows didn’t have the same time investment. When there was only the main, the live show, and Raiders, with the occasional Joe project, that was perfect. They could invest more time into those characters, and the characters popped more.
I actually love Hubert. This campaign has been awkward and I blame the theme music. I know Troy didn’t like the music for the giantslayer campaign, but this new theme is terrible and feels like a SNL ripoff and it starts every ep with a wet fart vibe for me. I love this group tho, I like their characters. I don’t actually know what is so weird about this campaign, but it’s a strange vibe for sure
I’ve been enjoying it for the most part, but I think the root of most of the complaints people have come from the campaign being tuned way too difficult, which takes its toll on the players, and affects the mood/roleplay.
I get it. For me Campaign 2 is a slow start story wise. Theres been some interesting other world travel stuff. But not really anything to get me interested. On flip side. Blood of the Wild is there best show. I think that should be there “flag ship”
I just think 2e is too deadly. I feel like the characters are a bunch of smucks, and not heroes like they are supposed to. So yeah, no more main show for me until it improves.
On that note, does anyone know of anywhere that they recap the episodes?
I don't know about the AP, I haven't read any of the 2e APs, but 2e is less lethal than 1e, especially at low levels. There's more emphasis on group tactics and party composition in 2e and that's where the real issue is.
Those are just 2e's talking points, but they aren't actually true. If you're more dependent on your party, then the game has become more dangerous, as opposed to 1e, where a well-built character could solo the first third of most APs.
I haven't figured out why they say 2e is less lethal, and no one seems to be able to explain it either. They just say it, as if the truth of it is readily apparent.
I'm not saying you don't know what you are talking about, but I don't know what you are talking about. Why are PCs dying if not for the fact that the game itself is super dangerous?
The game itself isn't any more lethal, imo.
In 1E you could definitely just get downed by a random goblin at level one too. Hell, in Strange Aeons, Joe lost his character in the very first episode!
The basic CR1/3 orc in pf1 is a player kill waiting to happen. Let's say an average lvl 1 front-liner player AC is around 20. The orc will only hit on a 15-20 and does decent average damage of 9 on a hit. The average front-liner from above is probably gonna have around 13 or 14 hp at lvl 1. If the orc hits you, though, it has a 50% chance to crit-threat and a 30% chance to confirm. Ok, but it's hp is only 6, easy to knock it out before it gets the chance, right? Nah, ferocity means you have to kill it down to -12 before it will drop.
None of this would be as bad if they weren't also cr 1/3. 3 of these are considered an "average" encounter for a lvl 1 party and run normally, they could easily put a PC in the ground.
Lvl 1 and 2 PF1e is rusty-shank-town where a single bad die roll can drop a PC but that doesn't necessarily go away. I one-shot killed a lvl 4 PC with a greataxe crit in a basically random encounter at the beginning of book 2 of Jade Regent. At least in 2e, a random crit can't kill you right off the bat.
Please give an example of a 1e character that can reliably solo two books of an AP. If you believe that, then I can see why you'd think 2e is more lethal than 1e.
You need a party in 1e too but not for cooperation/tactical reasons like in 2e. Situational modifiers are much more important since they're rarer in 2e. You need the party to be effective round-to-round because the math is tighter, not because it's more or less deadly.
I don't think 2e is less lethal overall but, at lower levels, the extra hp, dying stages, and hero point stabilization all help mitigate the deadliness. Some things are more dangerous, like poisons and diseases.
PCs can be dying more for ALL sorts of reasons that don't reflect on the system's lethality. The adventures could be poorly balanced or written as a meat-grinder. The GM might play the monsters super-viciously. The party could be poorly-balanced for the challenges they face. The individual characters could be poorly constructed. Even sheer bad dice luck can be a cause. None of these are dependent on the system being used.
The other 2e games I listen to haven't had a PC death yet so it's not like it's endemic to the system as far as I can see.
But how does the math being 'tighter' affect things? Like missing more often, or what are we talking about? The dice are still d20s, so the swing is the same there, so what does tighter mean in this context?
The system is designed so a +/-1 or 2 is a much bigger deal. That incentivises players using their actions for debuffs, movement, and flanking over MAP attacks. A +2 to hit in PF1e is great but you might have like 5-10 modifiers like that eventually. In 2e, there are only three different types of bonuses and same-type bonuses don't stack. You won't necessarily miss more often in 2e, it depends more on how you, and your party members, play in combat.
I think this is just an issue with the campaign. After they get a few levels and get some skills/spells they'll get into a more Heroic feel. My admitted weak understanding of this campaign is its very difficult early on and Troy isn't gonna let up on the gas. I honestly think this is part of Troy's hesitancy to institute new rules for bottlecaps because once they come into their powers that extra person will be enough power to steamroll most combats.
I agree, that's why I stopped watching/listening. The only way they dump this campaign is if people stop watching. I hope they can go back to the drawing board and put out a better product.
Even a cursory glance through this subreddit will tell you you're not alone. The last two episodes in particular have been rough, and blame has been split in varying proportions between Troy's GM-ing for PF2e, cast engagement, and the AP itself just being a mess. FWIW, I'm still hoping they can pull *Gatewalkers* out of the fire, but idk. I've been listening more to *Legacy of the Ancients* and *Blood of the Wild* in the meantime, and I'm enjoying them a lot more. I also think Hubert Hedge is fine. Y'all are just mean.
I'm with you in hoping they can right the ship on gatewalkers. Maybe Troy should consult with Matthew and get a little cohesion in this narrative instead of dumbly walking from fight to fight without a sense of purpose.
To his credit, Troy's running the adventure pretty close to how it's written. The problem is that it's just not a very good adventure, and that's cold comfort to your players and audience. I feel like he was more willing to change stuff in *Giantslayer*, though I'm not as familiar with those books to say for sure. Hopefully the last few weeks have been a wakeup call for the party to start playing a little smarter and for Troy to start making more edits to the AP. He's got plenty of professionals to talk advice from, at least.
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Books 4 and 5 were night and day different on a binge relisten vs week to week
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I just finished that part in my relisten and it’s not nearly as bad as I remember.
Because you didn't need to wait a week between episodes.
Oh absolutely. I’ve noticed it with manga that I read weekly too, and that is worse because sometimes there is a random week off thrown in there.
Agreed, i remember suffering week to week, but I've been recently binging and have been enjoying it thoroughly.
iirc, Book 5 of Giantslayer was consistently polled as the single worst book in a 1e AP in a few different places for a while. It still was fun to listen to, even if it wasn't as dynamic and masterfully written as the voyage up the river Esk. In terms of tone -- not the tone of the material, but the tone of the table -- it's still night and day from GCP 2.0.
In my current online game, we're on book5 now and boy, it's really something. Surprising that it's rated the worst book, there are some real stinkers out there.
It's really a horrible use of enemy types.
There are so many cool volcano/fire themed monsters they could use but, nah, have another patrol of fire giants.
Giantslayer is pretty commonly on the list of worst 1e APs and they did a great job with that imo.
It's far more cohesive than Gatewalkers has been imo.
I agree. It's definitely more straightforward, but just because the AP is bad doesn't mean the show has to suffer for it.
I don’t think that’s actually to his credit. He picked that AP out of dozens of other first and second edition options and over home-brewing something and he has so many peers in and out of the network he could turn to learn from if he’s not comfortable personalizing the adventure to better fit his group on his own. In my experience as a player, GM, and podcast listener, that’s pretty much the default because the AP writers can’t be expected to anticipate and address every possible group/approach.
Oh, I'm definitely damning with faint praise. I get why he picked this AP from a thematic standpoint, but it's on him to make it work at the table. Same as any other GM, if not worse because this is their job and people's healthcare is on the line.
Yeah that’s a fair point
Gatewalkers is also the AP picked after years of no GCP 2.0.
This is an important factor I think. You shouldn't GM an AP straight from the pages IMO, you should use it as a foundation and build the walls around the players and characters you got - something the AP writers cannot know and do (except using pregens). Some of the best parts from GS were stuff they created from, and around, the PCs. There's been too little like that in GCP2 IMO, Troy did flesh out the npcs but we need a Brandyr, something to give the PCs a goal other than just surviving the next encounter. And we need some XP-farming fights to be pruned as well.
I'm not sure it's a fair comparison to be honest. Giantslayer goes pretty much by the book for a while. Even when they start adding in their own stuff to tie their characters to the world, it's still running side by side with Troy running the AP by the books. I don't think anything even really diverges until a character dies (trying to avoid spoilers) and an NPC from their backstory starts turning into a main antagonist. I'm rambling, but my point is that we are still early into Gatewalkers book 1. There's plenty of time to make the story their own.
Well, Gatewalkers *is* only a 3 book AP compared to Giantslayer's 6 books. Edit; https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/024/574/Screen_Shot_2017-11-06_at_12.41.31_PM.jpg
Honestly, Legacy is my favorite actual play podcast right now. Its so good. Skid knows how to cut through crunch and get to the best bits without getting bogged down and also feeling like you're not missing out on anything. Him just hands off for the Black Arrow fort siege, until they start talking about the lizards and he's like "guys. Yall can just sneak by"
Yeah, I love Skid as a GM. He clearly loves the setting and adventure, and he's got a great sense of how to keep the players engaged. I'm actually really hoping one day the network can pull him in to run *Seven Dooms for Sandpoint*! Though I've still got a few seasons to catch up on, so I can wait.
Lol same. Or maybe a Return of the Runelords? The late PF1e Rise sequel. I think it boils down to Skid still feeling like its a passionate hobby and Troy sees it as a business/job.
Yeah, the feeling is just so different in each show. Skid is just so conversational and ready for whatever the party wants to do. I could listen to Binky and Alfie bullshit about the family history all day. Even in *Blood of the Wild*, Jared messes up on the rules with some frequency -- but he keeps things moving and everyone engaged. The characters immediately made connections with each other and the setting, and it felt great! Meanwhile, how many times has the party in *Gatewalkers* just said outright that they're having a bad time? How many more characters are going to die with their secret/tragic backstories unexplored? The vibe is just not consistent. I get that *GW* is the main show and has more pressure, but for all their talk of trying to avoid "bad radio," I feel like they end up with less **good** radio by comparison.
You have a great point. There is also such little down time and conversation in Gatewalkers. There is like, 10-15 seconds of Hubert Hedge (who i admittedly enjoy), and thats it. Meanwhile there are swathes of sections in Legacy that feel like breaths of fresh air. Skid being great at NPCs helps, but the main issue is that he takes time to talk to the players. Gatewalkers is severe combat after severe combat. I cant remember the last decent conversation with NPCs since the farm, when Joe made the drawing of the bird.
They have some fun interactions -- Rameus passing around the flayleaf and being surprised he got it back comes to mind. But the characters don't really have the time or place to chill and learn more about each other, and most of the plot action is only tangential to the "Missing Moment" central mystery. Like, it's conceptually cool that they're on Castrovel, and no spoilers, but it gets cooler (if they survive long enough to see that stuff). But it feels really disconnected from the themes and plot of the AP. This little maneuver already cost them a party member... and for what? We're not really getting great character or plot work.
I thought Shattered Star was the Rise sequel, and Return of the Runelords was the third of the "trilogy."
Ah yes, you'd be correct. I always forget shattered star because of the name. I always associate it with a treasure hunt style adventure
I think it’s weird why people hate Hubert… In the book, it’s almost advised to not use him (which ironically, Troy does a lot of times with any npc who joins, but this time the book is on his side). It states in the book, “Though not particularly bright or helpful in a fight—if necessary, use statistics for a giant porcupine and apply the weak template.” I think it’s very reasonable to ask, “why does he even exist in this journey?” Well in the AP, he’s kinda like a random person you save, and that’s about it. Personally with people complaining about the campaign, I feel like it’s just cause the adventure path itself is just an “ok” story. It’s on my lowest rating in terms of adventure paths, but I really did enjoy the last book. If you’re not into the elf planet and lore, then this adventure is not for you and will be a slow grind till later in the other books, my players were learning it all but even I was very bored with it. I think glass cannon chose this adventure because it held similar topics with some of their other campaigns. I was hoping they would play the new tian xia campaign but maybe next time. Quest for the Frozen Flame is amazing, and I suggest people who haven’t listened in give it a try, it’s very fun and there are very few moments where the game mechanics are debated over confusion unlike gatewalkers lol.
IMO: they need more Hubert Hedges. They need more characters that they interact with for more than a few episodes and don't leave behind when they move on to the next plot place. Because right now, the party seriously lacks grounding. We met Doctor Ritalson once and heard from him maybe a handful of times. That's more than we ever got on-screen with his organization of other Gatewalkers. We're probably never going back to Seven Arches or Thinlands Farm, and we're probably never going back to the Thinlands or Castrovel once they leave. All we've got consistently are these characters, and they're having a few small, cute interactions while sitting on their backstory stuff for a reveal that might not come until long after they're dead. They need to either open up or get some new blood (PC or NPC) to bounce off of. Ironically, I think they're going to get one in Book 2, and they might hate it.
I \*hate\* book 2 of Gatewalkers. I hope they can pull something out of it.
I don't think it's that, because i love elf lore in golarion, it's the vibe. I mean hlp absolutely aced a very meh adventure path giving it life
Idk, it’s something for you to figure out lol. I think it’s fine, I do find combat to be absolutely boring but that’s cause they’re playing boring classes to me: a monastic archer monk is gonna do nothing but shoot arrows, a low level psychic literally only focuses on 2 cantrips, a cloistered cleric is just your typical cleric, & an investigator. They’re not really a flashy group, nor really amazing in combat together, only magus is really melee focused. This leads to really long combat to me, which I’m hoping gets fixed with the new character getting in. The starfinder campaigns eventually had 6 people, and it was pretty fun in my opinion. Just find their other games to listen to if this campaign is not your cup of tea
Hedge rules
Joe's bit a couple of episodes ago where he just lays into Hubert as Brother Ramius is one of my favorite GCP bits. I almost had to pull over.
Me too, I had to stop, I was bending from laughing
Dude, it fucking killed me. That's the funniest Joe has ever been. I loved it.
I think Hubert is pretty funny. I think Troy uses him pretty well for comedy, the cast plays along with it well. I will agree that there are some weak points in the game, but it's improved a lot from the first 15 or so episodes. Unfortunately, they still aren't great at tactics or remembering how things work. Bottle caps/hero points are discussed too much when they should just use them as normal. The game is deadly enough as it is, and the party comp isn't great. I've also read the AP can be brutal in parts like the snail fight. All in all though, it's pretty good. I do enjoy legacy and botw more, and I just started the strange aeons live shows again picking up after Chicago last year. Those have been good so far.
I, personally, love Hubert. I loved Tummsy. I loved Razzmatazz. I even enjoy Father Dick.
I think Troy's doing a good job with Hubert. Absolutely he's being played to be annoying to the PCs, but I think he keeps measured enough in how much he uses him that its still enjoyable and not annoying to the players per se. He turns it up a bit when it doesn't look like it'll matter (like when they fought the monkey thing) but held back, and even made him useful, when things were dire (the snail fight). I think its a good contrast to Bubbles where I think Troy just way, way, way overdid the bit. The bubbles bit, in and of itself, was/is amusing. But Troy overdid it and it got very annoying and unenjoyable to me. Made it hard to watch. So hopefully Troy can apply to Bubbles what he's done with Hubert. I thought he really nailed it with Hubert in the latest episode for instance.
I like troys nutty NPCs only because it makes the players rage which is always funny
Strange Aeons is free and comes out on the main feed with Gatewalkers and Cannon Fodder
The live shows really aren’t great to listen to IMO. They’re all dialed up to 11 in “stage” mode and that’s just not what I’m looking for.
they are currently recording trunk. hedge isn't long for this world I'm sure. are you asking about strange aeons?
Yup, maybe i am not on the official feed because it is not showing up
yeah I just checked it's definetly on the main feed with c2 and the fod
You're not clicking with it, it happens, nothing wrong with that. For what it's worth I don't click with it either. I know I like everyone involved, enjoy most of the other Glass Cannon shows they're on. Gatewalkers is just... Well, apparently I have my issues with it. It's just a shame it happens to be the flagship show.
Exactly. Although I'm enjoying it myself, I totally get that others won't. It goes back to the old saying "You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you can't please all the people all the time."
100%. I'm happy with their shows as a whole, that's good enough for me.
That's totally ok! If people are still watching and engaging then it's unlikely things will change, the only thing that would send a clear message at this point is if people stopped watching.
I'm in the camp that Bottlecaps, System Mastery, Player Synergy, or whatever else are not the core problem. To me the core problem is the Gatewalkers AP kinda sucks. Now parts of Giantslayer sucked as an AP as well but I think all those other issues pile on on a way they didn't then and just make it not as fun. They all are amazing and hilarious personalities. I love their role play and tabletalk. But Gatewalkers the story is not doing them any favors. I feel like Gatewalkers has Rise of Skywalker syndrome where they constantly are being shoved along to the next set piece and mcguffin and never have time to breath and roleplay organically outside of their campfire. And they constantly are moving forward never returning to previous locations. Why all that time on 7 arches or the villages in the lead up to Kaneepo? There isn't a Trunau to care about or a Sandpoint like in Runelords. It reminds me of Strange Aeons but that show is barely about the AP story anymore and is just a vehicle for their comedy live show. It has a very different feel than what the main show should have as a successor to Giantslayer. I wish Troy would heavily edit the AP to either give the characters more connections and buy in or just start cutting pointless encounters. For example there was no reason to do both the monkey AND the snail. They both serve the same purpose of introducing the danger of the jungle. This party is not combat focused, they are much more about the story and role play ywt Troy runs the AP like they are combat enthusiasts. It slowd down the show and story to a crawl and just makes some of their 2e weaknesses worse. So yeah I am enjoying the show and actually liked the last two episodes so much I watched them live but I agree with Joe of not feeling the story at all and thinking it is way too reliant on it's mystery box stringing them along.
Absolutely agree, I just can't get on board with Gatewalkers; conceptually it sounds cool but the actual adventure has fallen so flat to me from a listener standpoint. I would've killed to see them playing something like Kingmaker, Agents of Edgewatch, or Strength of Thousands instead.
The game was flawed because most of the characters haven’t been as fun as usual (and the story’s pretty scattered). I think they realized that and they’ve leaned into personalities more lately. I’m really looking forward to seeing what Matthew’s got up his sleeve. And I live for Troy’s npcs.
You know what, probably i don't like him much cause it seems he is giving him a lot more voice than actual PC, not his fault entirely. I get that he is fun like in the last episode and troy is amazing at doing weird unnerving npc like the scarabs in giant slayer or razmataz but i feel like zephir and foxlady(don't remeber her name) and talia (again not sure that's her name) are very strong charachters or given enough voice. Loving buggles and brother remius, Joe cracked me up with is "you know what fire is?" I really laughed histericcaly at that but also remius is kind of a very well flashed out characher.
I did like seeing Zephyr finally open up a bit in the last episode. I think it was needed for the viewing audience's sake at any rate.
The issue is that the players clearly aren't having fun, and that ruins the listening experience. The combination of a lack of cohesion from the party, shitty rolls and from my understanding, a not great AP, makes for tough listening sometimes. Also Hubert is totally fine as an NPC. There have been plenty of other annoying NPCs
I disagree. I think the players are definitely having fun.
That's fine, but there have been several players over the past few episodes say "this is not fun." I'm sure some of that is played up for the cameras, but playing in a game where you are constantly shit on (whether it's bad encounters, luck, die rolls whatever) isn't very fun.
I'd personally say they're having fun in spite of the prewritten adventure, not because of it. Like having fun playing a crappy video game because you're doing it while hanging out with friends.
Naw, Hubert is great
You are not alone. The AP is just not as engaging and I think that’s the biggest issue. I’m still trying to figure out what is the meat of the “quest” they are on. I love when Troy’s NPCs, they typically are some of the funniest bits in the show. I’m just still struggling to get engaged with the characters, Ramius is starting to get fleshed out a bit but that’s it so far. Skid is one of the best but Buggles isn’t grabbing me yet, could just be the way he is playing him as being so shy and I’m confident he will come around. Giantslayer had so many iconic characters, they were very engaging right out of the gate, these characters not so much. Hopefully Matthew can get it fired up here and give his new character some larger then life personality.
Joe is carrying the show, and I have no idea what is happening in the story at this point.
Lots of people agree. Luckily they have a ton of great shows to pick from.
Skid always finds a Jarjar. It all depends on his interaction with the NPC and whether it will be following them. Tummsi in A&A for example.
The. Don’t listen they have a lot of other content, not everything is always going to jive
They are #36 episodes into Gatewalkers, that's like 6-7 normal game night sessions. Imagine what you could do with 7 sessions in: Caverns of Thracia, Maze of the Blue Medusa, Ravenloft/Curse of Stradh, The Isle of Dread (etc) and compare that to Gatewalkers. So far not a good adventure path, also, I have no idea why the dynamic is so off between the players. Love all other shows.
Hubert Hedge is the best character since Harry T
Aeons, Legacy, GITC, Chaos all rule. I’ve been catching up on everything after a few months off. Based on the commentary tho… leaving Gate for last. Sounds a bit of a mess.
I stopped listening awhile ago. You do need to watch it more, which hinders the podcast part. I can’t picture battles as much, I need to consult the video to appreciate them. Yay, that’s no longer a podcast. The lack of tension and emotional resonance, and that I just don’t care if any of the characters die. I still re listen to the first campaign, and the first two seasons of Raiders. I really think they’re spread to thin. It’s not just the number of shows, it’s that shows didn’t have the same time investment. When there was only the main, the live show, and Raiders, with the occasional Joe project, that was perfect. They could invest more time into those characters, and the characters popped more.
I actually love Hubert. This campaign has been awkward and I blame the theme music. I know Troy didn’t like the music for the giantslayer campaign, but this new theme is terrible and feels like a SNL ripoff and it starts every ep with a wet fart vibe for me. I love this group tho, I like their characters. I don’t actually know what is so weird about this campaign, but it’s a strange vibe for sure
I’ve been enjoying it for the most part, but I think the root of most of the complaints people have come from the campaign being tuned way too difficult, which takes its toll on the players, and affects the mood/roleplay.
I get it. For me Campaign 2 is a slow start story wise. Theres been some interesting other world travel stuff. But not really anything to get me interested. On flip side. Blood of the Wild is there best show. I think that should be there “flag ship”
I just think 2e is too deadly. I feel like the characters are a bunch of smucks, and not heroes like they are supposed to. So yeah, no more main show for me until it improves. On that note, does anyone know of anywhere that they recap the episodes?
I don't know about the AP, I haven't read any of the 2e APs, but 2e is less lethal than 1e, especially at low levels. There's more emphasis on group tactics and party composition in 2e and that's where the real issue is.
Those are just 2e's talking points, but they aren't actually true. If you're more dependent on your party, then the game has become more dangerous, as opposed to 1e, where a well-built character could solo the first third of most APs. I haven't figured out why they say 2e is less lethal, and no one seems to be able to explain it either. They just say it, as if the truth of it is readily apparent. I'm not saying you don't know what you are talking about, but I don't know what you are talking about. Why are PCs dying if not for the fact that the game itself is super dangerous?
The game itself isn't any more lethal, imo. In 1E you could definitely just get downed by a random goblin at level one too. Hell, in Strange Aeons, Joe lost his character in the very first episode!
The basic CR1/3 orc in pf1 is a player kill waiting to happen. Let's say an average lvl 1 front-liner player AC is around 20. The orc will only hit on a 15-20 and does decent average damage of 9 on a hit. The average front-liner from above is probably gonna have around 13 or 14 hp at lvl 1. If the orc hits you, though, it has a 50% chance to crit-threat and a 30% chance to confirm. Ok, but it's hp is only 6, easy to knock it out before it gets the chance, right? Nah, ferocity means you have to kill it down to -12 before it will drop. None of this would be as bad if they weren't also cr 1/3. 3 of these are considered an "average" encounter for a lvl 1 party and run normally, they could easily put a PC in the ground. Lvl 1 and 2 PF1e is rusty-shank-town where a single bad die roll can drop a PC but that doesn't necessarily go away. I one-shot killed a lvl 4 PC with a greataxe crit in a basically random encounter at the beginning of book 2 of Jade Regent. At least in 2e, a random crit can't kill you right off the bat.
Please give an example of a 1e character that can reliably solo two books of an AP. If you believe that, then I can see why you'd think 2e is more lethal than 1e. You need a party in 1e too but not for cooperation/tactical reasons like in 2e. Situational modifiers are much more important since they're rarer in 2e. You need the party to be effective round-to-round because the math is tighter, not because it's more or less deadly. I don't think 2e is less lethal overall but, at lower levels, the extra hp, dying stages, and hero point stabilization all help mitigate the deadliness. Some things are more dangerous, like poisons and diseases. PCs can be dying more for ALL sorts of reasons that don't reflect on the system's lethality. The adventures could be poorly balanced or written as a meat-grinder. The GM might play the monsters super-viciously. The party could be poorly-balanced for the challenges they face. The individual characters could be poorly constructed. Even sheer bad dice luck can be a cause. None of these are dependent on the system being used. The other 2e games I listen to haven't had a PC death yet so it's not like it's endemic to the system as far as I can see.
But how does the math being 'tighter' affect things? Like missing more often, or what are we talking about? The dice are still d20s, so the swing is the same there, so what does tighter mean in this context?
The system is designed so a +/-1 or 2 is a much bigger deal. That incentivises players using their actions for debuffs, movement, and flanking over MAP attacks. A +2 to hit in PF1e is great but you might have like 5-10 modifiers like that eventually. In 2e, there are only three different types of bonuses and same-type bonuses don't stack. You won't necessarily miss more often in 2e, it depends more on how you, and your party members, play in combat.
Buggles feels wayyy more like jar jar binks
can someone help, i was only able to downvote this once for some reason
Yea downvote your own comment too. High chance parent comment will be hidden lol
Buggles is an ewok, cute and precious. Jar jar is just annoying
I think this is just an issue with the campaign. After they get a few levels and get some skills/spells they'll get into a more Heroic feel. My admitted weak understanding of this campaign is its very difficult early on and Troy isn't gonna let up on the gas. I honestly think this is part of Troy's hesitancy to institute new rules for bottlecaps because once they come into their powers that extra person will be enough power to steamroll most combats.
I agree, that's why I stopped watching/listening. The only way they dump this campaign is if people stop watching. I hope they can go back to the drawing board and put out a better product.