Personally think Gordons done enough to be in the 23, given his versatility and recent performances. Can definitely see Watkins getting the nod if it’s 26.
Because in the system it feels like Toney is maybe a better fit. England will generally play teams that sit deep until the latter stages, which suits Toney’s hold up game more. Watkins will be good against sides that play higher up the pitch.
In terms of proper left wingers yeah he probably is. Grealish is close if you consider him a left winger. Rashford is absolutely nowhere near, laughable how anyone but his nan thinks he should be in the squad
I don’t know if they quite do the same job. Don’t get me wrong, grealish doesn’t start for me, and certainly not ahead of foden. But I don’t think they offer exactly the same skillsets
Hendo gets the nod over bellingham in Southgates eyes but i just think theres nothing Rashford can offer that Gordon cant and Rashfords shown multiple times this season to be lazy and selfish
The "Rashford is lazy" argument really frustrates me. It's so obvious he is instructed not to press and track back as much as others, so that he is ready for counters when United win the ball back.
If he was as lazy as everyone said, he would be dropped. He's just following the tactics
I hear this a lot but it makes no sense imo. If this was the case he wouldn't press at all unless he could clearly win the ball.
However often he puts in a 10% effort press. Or half-arses a tackle. So clearly he wants to look like he's trying without actually trying.
Nah hes just a brat mate, ive seen him on more than one occasion get dispossessed and throw a huff or watch the opposition walk away with the ball when hes within 10 yards.
I understand him not tracking back often so hes ready for a counter attack but he is lazy anywhere on the pitch unless he has the ball
As it seems like Toney is Southgate's preferred back up to Kane, then I think Watkins would then get to make the plane. The thought of him not going for how incredible he has been this season is a weird thought, so I hope he goes!
question, do you honestly believe Southgate would take Toney over Watkins if squads were only 23? I think he prefers him BUT, I don't think he would because Watkins has been incredible this season.
Similar to the Palmer/Maddison/Bowen situation. I think Southgate would WANT to take Bowen & Maddison over Palmer, but he probably wouldn't because he knows there will literally be a riot if he leaves Palmer.
He choose Toney as backup to Kane over Watkins in the recent friendlies, so yes deifnitely. It will be that Toney suits Englands style more, rather than any criticism of Watkins.
I know but those are friendlies. The backlash of a selection doesn't compare to a tournament.
"It will be that Toney suits Englands style more, rather than any criticism of Watkins."
That's a risky narrative. Because then he could just take Rashford & Bowen over Gordon & Palmer, then use that same reasoning.
Merit should be the main reason for a selection.
Main reason for selection is who the manager thinks will give him the best chance of winning. If he thinks players who know the system abd have performed well for him already give him a better chance of winning than bringing a new face in that’s what he’ll do. People obsess over merit and who deserves iit. National team selection isn’t some kind of service to honour players and give them what they deserve. it’s about winning football matches.
I agree, he’s been brilliant. He’s never really replicated it In an England shirt though for me. But to be fair 3 goals in 11 caps isn’t bad, and I’m guessing a fair few of them caps are off the bench.
I put some money on Rico Lewis for this reason (Sky are running a market on it). I think increasing squad size is inevitable (not many nations would reasonably vote against that with modern levels of player fatigue), and Rico is the utility player Southgate will jump at. Covers LB, CDM and CM which are our weakest positions, plus Southgate has already shown a real liking to him (started him in the final qualifiers, called him up from the 21s last break).
Both Toney and Watkins instead of one of them.
Three out of Grealish, Bowen, Gordon, Rashford instead of two of them.
An extra defensive player - defender or midfielder.
Kalvin Phillips (not joking). Then I'd say Gordon & Toney. Because I believe currently Mainoo is ahead of Phillips, Grealish preferred to Gordon, and Watkins ahead of Toney.
(I know Toney did better in the last int game & is a pen specialist, but I can't fathom Watkins being left behind off the back of this season).
Watkins might be the player of the season completely laughable to write him off as unable to do it internationally when he's only played 11 games mostly off the bench
Based on the last England squad call up and friendlies it seemed Mainoo, Maddison and Toney were favoured over Gallagher, Palmer and Watkins if it was to be a 23 man squad. The + 3 should mean all six of those mentioned should be part of the squad, and if not you can choose who from each position.
Of course form etc has changed over the last 3 weeks. I’d expect Palmer to have been nailed on in a 23 man squad by the end of the season considering he’s in contention for the Golden Boot. Same might go for Watkins and him getting a place over Bowen if it is 23. The only position which is in contention in a 23/26 man squad is who goes in between Gordon or Rashford, and I think Gordon takes it.
Toney/Watkins (whichever Southgate wouldn't have taken in a 23-man squad), Maddison, then either an extra attacker like Bowen or Rashfrd, or an extra defender like Colwill or Guehi.
I mean how can palmer not be in the 23 after the season he’s had? Southgate sometimes works in mysterious ways though. But Barring injuries he’s a dead cert
Hmm I wouldn’t be so certain. International football is a completely different ball game. It’s not win it’s more like don’t lose… that being said every winning international team either has one stalwart hero like Messi, Pele, Mbappe or players you’d call Magicians like Brazil in 2002. Rarely has a “team” every won international tournaments. It’s always magic moments…
In England’s sense they have a good team with some stellar talents, Harry Kane & Jude Bellingham. They have players who can do the dirty job and purple patch players, who on the day are bested by no one like Rashford, Saka, TAA.
In palmers case, he’s had his breakout season, but he’s still firmly behind Bellingham and Foden down the middle and recently Bowen has played himself into contention as an all action pressing winger who does the dirty work. As a deputy to Saka, he goes. On the left that leaves Marcus Rashford who in his purple patch is ridiculous and probably Grealish who’s a solid squad player who can do a job.
That leaves Gordon as a backup in the 26 and Palmer again gets left out cause he’s more a right sided player. Palmer goes in the 26 because he’s better than the others who’ve not made the squad. It’s more abundance in quality…
Note coming into the Euros, Palmer has yet to play a game of significance on the international stage with his international teammates. Cause Palmer wont play the same way with say, Kane dropping in or Rashford running in behind or Bellingham occupying the right half space etc
On your point about “a team” hardly ever winning tournaments I actually think the opposite. It’s normally the team who have their shit together, and play as a team with a cohesive system and are hard to beat first and foremost. Last 20 years we’ve had Greece, Portugal, Italy win it. I’d argue that all their main strengths were organisation and hard work. I know Portugal had Ronaldo but he wasn’t at,say, Zidane 98 levels of performance for me. Yes, having a superstar who can provide magic moments helps, but I think if you just reply on that you’ll come unstuck pretty quickly.
As for Palmer I just think he could add something different against tired legs. If Saka is having a poor game or is tired he would be great for that, or even at 10. Also if we end up going to a penalty shootout he’ll no doubt take one.
We’ll kinds true but let’s see, Greece were by gosh a brilliantly tough team to beat. They were brilliant if not lucky to win on Silver Goals but remember that time period was particularly defensive football. Italy were a very very good defensive team in 2006. They won due to horrible ingame management against Southgate in 2020. Portugal was definitely a Ronaldo team who got lucky with that Eder shot. Even lloris said it was out of nowhere, I mean they didnt win a single game in the 90 minutes.
England is coming up against probably one of the greatest French teams, a resurgent German team, an underperforming Spanish team and probably a semi decent Italian team with dark horses Serbia, Portugal and Belgium.
With Palmer if Saka is having an off day, Foden is more likely to play on the right where he’s played majority of his minutes this season with 12 goal contributions. Note Foden has had time to adapt to his international teammates. As for trying to see a game out Bowen is far better than Palmer, all be it you’re right on Palmer being the better shout if England is in trouble.
Ergo I think Palmer will go but only in the 26 as Bowen is still far likely to go as a backup especially with Foden being able to play on either flank or as a 10.
I’d say Barkley should be considered as Mainoo insurance for the role of midfielder who doesn’t panic on the ball but isn’t good enough off of it (though Mainoo good chance to get there because he’s so young). None of the other 8s are really up to a possession game except maybe Angel Gomes or Curtis Jones.
I meant England have requested the squad be expanded to 26 so Southgate doesn't upset a few players. Even in a squad of 23, there are players that don't get a game. 26 is completely unnecessary.
Watkins. Colwill. Gordon. Those are the 3 I anticipate to miss the 23 but would make a 26.
Personally think Gordons done enough to be in the 23, given his versatility and recent performances. Can definitely see Watkins getting the nod if it’s 26.
He is the most borderline case imo other than perhaps Watkins. I have him just missing out due to squad balance rather than quality.
You can't say that without saying who would miss out.
Gordon is much more deserving than Rashford on this seasons performances.
Gordon will 100% be there, best English left winger by far this season.
There’s really no one else close that primarily plays LW. His pace will be so dangerous being fed by Kane.
Grealish
I don't understand how people don't have Watkins in their 23
Because in the system it feels like Toney is maybe a better fit. England will generally play teams that sit deep until the latter stages, which suits Toney’s hold up game more. Watkins will be good against sides that play higher up the pitch.
Same, probably been prem player of the year for me
Gordon is the best LW England currently has
In terms of proper left wingers yeah he probably is. Grealish is close if you consider him a left winger. Rashford is absolutely nowhere near, laughable how anyone but his nan thinks he should be in the squad
Personally I don’t see why you’d play Grealish at LW when you have Foden who can play there and do the same job better than Grealish.
I don’t know if they quite do the same job. Don’t get me wrong, grealish doesn’t start for me, and certainly not ahead of foden. But I don’t think they offer exactly the same skillsets
I dunno, I just don’t rate Grealish I suppose. He’s far too conservative these days.
Gordons the most inform LW England has plus also puts in the work to get back as well. He should be there over Rashford or Grealish no doubt
Over Grealish yes. I think Rashfords England performances and experience get him the nod over someone like Gordon in someone like Southgate’s eyes.
Hendo gets the nod over bellingham in Southgates eyes but i just think theres nothing Rashford can offer that Gordon cant and Rashfords shown multiple times this season to be lazy and selfish
Hendo hasn’t started a game in ages and Bellingham stats every game, people just say these baseless things as an excuse to be angry
The "Rashford is lazy" argument really frustrates me. It's so obvious he is instructed not to press and track back as much as others, so that he is ready for counters when United win the ball back. If he was as lazy as everyone said, he would be dropped. He's just following the tactics
I hear this a lot but it makes no sense imo. If this was the case he wouldn't press at all unless he could clearly win the ball. However often he puts in a 10% effort press. Or half-arses a tackle. So clearly he wants to look like he's trying without actually trying.
Nah hes just a brat mate, ive seen him on more than one occasion get dispossessed and throw a huff or watch the opposition walk away with the ball when hes within 10 yards. I understand him not tracking back often so hes ready for a counter attack but he is lazy anywhere on the pitch unless he has the ball
Over Grealish yes. I think Rashfords England performances and experience get him the nod over someone like Gordon in someone like Southgate’s eyes.
Yeah, got to be. Maybe Konsa over Colwill?
I have Konsa in my 23 personally
As it seems like Toney is Southgate's preferred back up to Kane, then I think Watkins would then get to make the plane. The thought of him not going for how incredible he has been this season is a weird thought, so I hope he goes!
question, do you honestly believe Southgate would take Toney over Watkins if squads were only 23? I think he prefers him BUT, I don't think he would because Watkins has been incredible this season. Similar to the Palmer/Maddison/Bowen situation. I think Southgate would WANT to take Bowen & Maddison over Palmer, but he probably wouldn't because he knows there will literally be a riot if he leaves Palmer.
I think kSouthgate has shown he is gonna picks who he thinks is right not based on what will make fans happy.
He choose Toney as backup to Kane over Watkins in the recent friendlies, so yes deifnitely. It will be that Toney suits Englands style more, rather than any criticism of Watkins.
He played them both
I know but those are friendlies. The backlash of a selection doesn't compare to a tournament. "It will be that Toney suits Englands style more, rather than any criticism of Watkins." That's a risky narrative. Because then he could just take Rashford & Bowen over Gordon & Palmer, then use that same reasoning. Merit should be the main reason for a selection.
Main reason for selection is who the manager thinks will give him the best chance of winning. If he thinks players who know the system abd have performed well for him already give him a better chance of winning than bringing a new face in that’s what he’ll do. People obsess over merit and who deserves iit. National team selection isn’t some kind of service to honour players and give them what they deserve. it’s about winning football matches.
Bowen is rubbish and has been awful/ out of his depth for England. Southgate won’t pick him ahead of Palmer who takes penalties.
Insane take.
He’s just a very ordinary player. That’s why no one buys him and why he doesn’t play for England.
Stick to playing fifa I suppose 🤷🏼♂️
So somebody has signed him from West Ham? I must have missed it. Thought he was still just playing for a mid table team.
What an odd fella
I agree, he’s been brilliant. He’s never really replicated it In an England shirt though for me. But to be fair 3 goals in 11 caps isn’t bad, and I’m guessing a fair few of them caps are off the bench.
He was Englands best forward in their past game
I put some money on Rico Lewis for this reason (Sky are running a market on it). I think increasing squad size is inevitable (not many nations would reasonably vote against that with modern levels of player fatigue), and Rico is the utility player Southgate will jump at. Covers LB, CDM and CM which are our weakest positions, plus Southgate has already shown a real liking to him (started him in the final qualifiers, called him up from the 21s last break).
Thank you for finally giving Rico the shout he deserves
Yeah I can see that to be fair, young, versatile and very talented.
Both Toney and Watkins instead of one of them. Three out of Grealish, Bowen, Gordon, Rashford instead of two of them. An extra defensive player - defender or midfielder.
Kalvin Phillips (not joking). Then I'd say Gordon & Toney. Because I believe currently Mainoo is ahead of Phillips, Grealish preferred to Gordon, and Watkins ahead of Toney. (I know Toney did better in the last int game & is a pen specialist, but I can't fathom Watkins being left behind off the back of this season).
Some players can set the top leagues on fire yet can't do it at international level. Watkins is a prime example.
Watkins might be the player of the season completely laughable to write him off as unable to do it internationally when he's only played 11 games mostly off the bench
Same can be said about Foden, would you leave him out?
I think Foden is being played out of position tbh, but yes, he's not performing on the left wing. I'd take him as a sub for Bellingham.
Cool, at least you're consistent. So you'd bench Foden, then who would you start on the left?
Definitely a CB who wouldn’t play anyway, a striker (Toney/Solanke) and maybe a midfielder too such as Henderson or Mainoo
Henderson would go if we were allowed a squad of 1.
Well the issue is he’s the only person we have who can play rice’s position if he gets injured or suspended
Mainoo is nailed on regardless
He’s bringing Rice, Bellingham, Gallagher, Trent and ONE of Henderson/Mainoo. With the 26 he’ll bring both
Don’t you think they’d squeeze Kane & Bellingham in too?
Mainoo has to be 4th on the teamsheet behind Kane, Bellingham and Rice.
What an incredibly crazy statement to believe
I like to shock. It's true though.
Saka Pickford Stones Walker
Based on the last England squad call up and friendlies it seemed Mainoo, Maddison and Toney were favoured over Gallagher, Palmer and Watkins if it was to be a 23 man squad. The + 3 should mean all six of those mentioned should be part of the squad, and if not you can choose who from each position. Of course form etc has changed over the last 3 weeks. I’d expect Palmer to have been nailed on in a 23 man squad by the end of the season considering he’s in contention for the Golden Boot. Same might go for Watkins and him getting a place over Bowen if it is 23. The only position which is in contention in a 23/26 man squad is who goes in between Gordon or Rashford, and I think Gordon takes it.
I’m in agreement with Gordon. He deserves it IMO.
I'd be pissed if Rashford went ahead of Gordon, and I'm not English!
Hard to tell with Palmer because of the injures. Palmer going and Maddison not wouldn’t surprise me but Watkins going but Toney not would surprise me
Watkins Bowen and Branthwaite
Watching branthwaite against Chelsea shows me he’s no where near the quality to be playing for England
Finally someone said it
Harvey Elliott,
Very good shout for me I think Wharton at palace maybe one for the future too
He's in our most stacked position on the team so I think he'll be with the u21s until he's at least better than Madders or Palmer.
Gordon, Trippier, Henderson
Toney/Watkins (whichever Southgate wouldn't have taken in a 23-man squad), Maddison, then either an extra attacker like Bowen or Rashfrd, or an extra defender like Colwill or Guehi.
3 Henderson lol Hope Barkley gets a go
Rashford shouldn’t make the 26
Watkins, Bowen, and Jones
Dier
We wouldn’t have to make choices like Bowen vs Palmer or Toney vs Watkins
Not saying names but a 3rd striker, a 5th winger & a 5th centre-back.
Assuming Rashford is in the 23. Gordon, Palmer and JWP
I mean how can palmer not be in the 23 after the season he’s had? Southgate sometimes works in mysterious ways though. But Barring injuries he’s a dead cert
Hmm I wouldn’t be so certain. International football is a completely different ball game. It’s not win it’s more like don’t lose… that being said every winning international team either has one stalwart hero like Messi, Pele, Mbappe or players you’d call Magicians like Brazil in 2002. Rarely has a “team” every won international tournaments. It’s always magic moments… In England’s sense they have a good team with some stellar talents, Harry Kane & Jude Bellingham. They have players who can do the dirty job and purple patch players, who on the day are bested by no one like Rashford, Saka, TAA. In palmers case, he’s had his breakout season, but he’s still firmly behind Bellingham and Foden down the middle and recently Bowen has played himself into contention as an all action pressing winger who does the dirty work. As a deputy to Saka, he goes. On the left that leaves Marcus Rashford who in his purple patch is ridiculous and probably Grealish who’s a solid squad player who can do a job. That leaves Gordon as a backup in the 26 and Palmer again gets left out cause he’s more a right sided player. Palmer goes in the 26 because he’s better than the others who’ve not made the squad. It’s more abundance in quality… Note coming into the Euros, Palmer has yet to play a game of significance on the international stage with his international teammates. Cause Palmer wont play the same way with say, Kane dropping in or Rashford running in behind or Bellingham occupying the right half space etc
On your point about “a team” hardly ever winning tournaments I actually think the opposite. It’s normally the team who have their shit together, and play as a team with a cohesive system and are hard to beat first and foremost. Last 20 years we’ve had Greece, Portugal, Italy win it. I’d argue that all their main strengths were organisation and hard work. I know Portugal had Ronaldo but he wasn’t at,say, Zidane 98 levels of performance for me. Yes, having a superstar who can provide magic moments helps, but I think if you just reply on that you’ll come unstuck pretty quickly. As for Palmer I just think he could add something different against tired legs. If Saka is having a poor game or is tired he would be great for that, or even at 10. Also if we end up going to a penalty shootout he’ll no doubt take one.
We’ll kinds true but let’s see, Greece were by gosh a brilliantly tough team to beat. They were brilliant if not lucky to win on Silver Goals but remember that time period was particularly defensive football. Italy were a very very good defensive team in 2006. They won due to horrible ingame management against Southgate in 2020. Portugal was definitely a Ronaldo team who got lucky with that Eder shot. Even lloris said it was out of nowhere, I mean they didnt win a single game in the 90 minutes. England is coming up against probably one of the greatest French teams, a resurgent German team, an underperforming Spanish team and probably a semi decent Italian team with dark horses Serbia, Portugal and Belgium. With Palmer if Saka is having an off day, Foden is more likely to play on the right where he’s played majority of his minutes this season with 12 goal contributions. Note Foden has had time to adapt to his international teammates. As for trying to see a game out Bowen is far better than Palmer, all be it you’re right on Palmer being the better shout if England is in trouble. Ergo I think Palmer will go but only in the 26 as Bowen is still far likely to go as a backup especially with Foden being able to play on either flank or as a 10.
Bowen/Rashy, Hendo, maybe R.Lewis
Barkley, Toney and Konsa for me
Barkley would be a bit of a shock at this stage for me but there’s no doubt he’s done well this season.
I’d say Barkley should be considered as Mainoo insurance for the role of midfielder who doesn’t panic on the ball but isn’t good enough off of it (though Mainoo good chance to get there because he’s so young). None of the other 8s are really up to a possession game except maybe Angel Gomes or Curtis Jones.
Definitely no midfielders. Can't stall the development of Ajax academy graduate Jordan Henderson.
Who is the backup cdm if not hendo ? And don’t say names like Trent or mainoo who have never played that role before
Trent and Mainoo personally
Rashford unfortunately. 26 is a joke. That's 15 substitutes. All because Southgate doesn't want to upset a few big egos.
It’s for all the teams not just England.
I meant England have requested the squad be expanded to 26 so Southgate doesn't upset a few players. Even in a squad of 23, there are players that don't get a game. 26 is completely unnecessary.
Completely bizarre that you turn a request for something that would very likely benefit England, into another reason to bash Southgate.
Par for the course I'm afraid.