Certain players need to be dropped/selected for England to play a more fluid game. But I agree its more Southgate's fault than the players. The fact they're undefeated, is a testament to their skill level
We need to go to a 5 3 2.
- Kane needs a runner.
- Bellingham needs someone to push the defence back and make space for him.
- Walkers/Trippier have been shit going forward.
- Foden has been shit in general.
TAA Walker Stones ( a center back ??) (Shaw/Saka)
Mainoo Rice Bellingham
Kane Toney
Shaw is not playing a minute at the tournament and it’s time everyone accepts that he should never have been picked. Even if he miraculously over comes this injury he won’t even be close to match ready.
To answer your question: it’s because certain players have certain qualities and playstyles. A simple example would be Harry Kane. Hes gifted with a lot of things, but pace isn’t one of them. So, if you want a runner in behind in your 9, kane is t going to be that. So, you may need to drop them. That said, it also speaks to your tactics point. A chicken or egg argument in a way - do you adapt your system to the players you have or pick players to suit your system. Gareth has seemingly looked at those options and gone with ‘neither’
Kane has insane passing abilities for a 9. So in the case of your example, the answer is to encourage runners beyond Kane when he drops. This should be primarily Bellingham and Foden, but if we were more fluid it could be anyone (see Spain). Jude and Phil might not be the best at this, but they would do it, if they were asked to. They are not - in fact they are outright discouraged, becasue Gareth must have his team structure and organised lines. So when Kane drops all we have is three no.10s standing virtually on top of each other and kane's passing options are restricted, almost totally nullifying his gift for visionary passing.
I'm pretty sure I could give you a break down like this for why Gareth is a tactically inept doofus regarding many players in the team and how and why Gareth's tactics fail to make the best of their gifts. Stones stepping into midfield when in possession is another really obvious one. Foden's need for triangular passing lanes another.
Like I said, though, I think it’s a little chicken or egg, because I don’t think Jude or Foden are best served by being wide or trying to be the runners. I think one of them is best in the 10 that Kane wants to be in and that’s where decisions about it system need to be made. Essentially how do we maximize the effectiveness of the team even if it doesn’t do so for a particular player.
Aaaaallllll that being said, I think we generally agree that the manager is failing to do this, but since there’s zero chance of the manager changing this tournament, supporters call for player changes. Cause we feel like the players need to for the manager’s inflexible system
I hear you. I just feel like many players at differenet times have had a lot of undeserved flak for Gareth's failings. His system needs Kalvin Phillips to function lol
That’s spot on. I think plenty of players - particularly Trent - have been made to own Gareth’s failings. Neville at halftime today was positively on fire about it:
“It should be illegal that Trent Alexander-Arnold isn’t on the pitch”
“The the best right back every produced by this country and he has to be on the pitch”
And having seen posts calling for Rice to be dropped, and Foden to be dropped and so on and so on is kind of wild. That said, personally, I would change the personnel a bit, but I would also change the system significantly 😂
Because most people have a 1-dimensional view of football. People watch this sport week in and week out and still have the view of someone who's only watched once. People also get caught up in narratives like sheep, say something enough and it becomes true.
We're playing the two geriatrics for our fullbacks
It isn't hard to understand that our best defender has been the youngest in that backline and our worst have been the two 33 year olds. Maybe play the younger guys there
We have an objectively good defence. It's not France, but we have one of the best fullbacks in the world, a solid utility player who only lost one game while playing at left back, and 2 young CBs who have looked good all season - 3 of these are sitting on the bench
Yes every single player except Guehi has looked utter shit in most of the last four games but the sole reason for this is Phil Foden.
Drop him and we win the tournament.
Agree 100%. I'm banging my head against the wall with this. Our left side is literally nonexistent, and you can see the way it affects Bellingham and Kane. If Southgate starts Foden over Gordon against Switzerland I'm going to have a meltdown.
We took Foden off and immediately scored 2 goals
Foden has been our worst player and due to him, Bellingham, and kane all tripping over each other they've all been ineffective, he doesn't provide width either. Bellingham and kane actually score despite that but Foden doesn't, so yes he's been a huge issue
It's not Foden's fault, but that's the bottleneck on the team. It's the reason there's no balance. It's Southgate's fault for playing him, but Gordan coming in for Foden would fix a lot of our problems in my (and most people's) opinions.
Stop taking it as a criticism on Foden, it's a criticism of Southgate for not playing Gordan. It's not Foden's fault because he isn't a left winger. He shouldn't have started the tournament in the first place and he's been thrown under the bus by Southgate who doesn't have the balls to drop him. But most rational people aren't blaming Foden. Him being there at LW is causing a lot of problems though.
The manager being an awful tactician is an issue but he's not going to get sacked mid tournament or suddenly become a tactical genius so that is somewhat an unsolvable problem.
What is a problem and solvable is the fact that we basically have no left side and Trippier offers so little as a LB it's like playing with 10 men. A personnel change would go some way to solving that issue.
If you take trippier out we go 2 nil down last night. The guy literally saved a certain goal. I agree though, Gomez and more importantly Mitchell, have been overlooked. Also last night was the last game we could experiment and rest players. Wharton, Gordon and Watkins all should’ve started the game. Just so we could see what they would bring.
The current team he keeps picking is easily good enough to win anything, he’s just a shit tier manager and there’s no work going on behind the scenes to fix it.
It wasn’t tactics that made the defender just give the ball away and have slovakia nearly score from the half way line, that was the players passing whilst asleep
Pickford has been told not to pretend he's Manuel Neuer a fair bit, but yeah rubbish passing from England nearly all tournament to be honest. I still blame Gareth for that.
Thank you. Been saying this for a while, swapping out a few players in different positions will make no difference. We play in a defensive style, but we seem to go far in tournaments so let’s keep going. The next manager might have a more attacking style but that’s not what we have now.
The difference individual players make is minimal, and flutcuates massively from game to game based on their form that day - see the difference Palmer made in the previous game, and the neglible difference he made against Slovakia. Arguably moving Saka to left back (for balance) was the difference maker on the day, though that was also small fry, compared with Gareth finally encouraging forward runs off the ball form multiple players at the same time, from the team in general, in the second half, so we suddenly weren't so very predictable.
Also, how the hell are we (or Gareth) really supposed to judge player's link play with other England options, and how well they fit, if he continually has them all play in a straitjacket? I honestly believe the arguments and debate around selections is largely a huge distraction.
When you someone comes on at the 80th minute they make an impact because it’s something different that the opposing players are not used to. Doing that for 90 mins is different
Palmer made a big difference today too?
And yeah Saka to left back did nothing because he's not a left back, you could see how uncomfortable he was there.
We have literally seen how the other players play despite Gareth's straightjacket and they've been better. So no, it's not a distraction, it's the truth. Swap out the underperforming players
>The man just believes you win games by not conceding goals over scoring them.
What teams have won world cups or euro championships by scoring more than you concede?
Maybe Argentina last time, perhaps. Brazil 2002? And then it's the 90s and stone age football.
Lots of teams have won playing horrendous defensive football.
We don't have midfielders with the quality to get the ball to the attacking talent we have. Southgate is probably too cautious, and he's not tactically proficient, but most international managers below par tactically.
There’s a couple of glaring positions that could be fixed by dropping someone to bring in a more natural player there to balance the team, e.g Gordon for foden on the left.
But overall I agree
I think it's a bit of both tbh. Some player just aren't playing well at all, regardless of whatever tactical changes could be made. For example, Mainoo looked far better in that midfield alongside Rice than either TAA or Gallagher did. Walker has looked poor and could/should be dropped in favour of the RB that Gareth has tried to shove into that midfield just because it worked well against Malta.
But you're right that swapping out a few players won't solve all the problems. I don't even think we need a complete overhaul of the tactics though. There was a 5-10 minute spell in the second half last night where we moved the ball quickly, made runs and trying to be more creative in the final third even if it means giving away possession and it's the best we've looked so far this tournament. When we start being a little less risk-averse we cause problems.
Certain players need to be dropped/selected for England to play a more fluid game. But I agree its more Southgate's fault than the players. The fact they're undefeated, is a testament to their skill level
We need to go to a 5 3 2. - Kane needs a runner. - Bellingham needs someone to push the defence back and make space for him. - Walkers/Trippier have been shit going forward. - Foden has been shit in general. TAA Walker Stones ( a center back ??) (Shaw/Saka) Mainoo Rice Bellingham Kane Toney
Shaw is not playing a minute at the tournament and it’s time everyone accepts that he should never have been picked. Even if he miraculously over comes this injury he won’t even be close to match ready.
Why are people so obsessed with Saka at full back? He’s an attacker ffs
In 5 at the back we don't really have an attacking fullback.
He's been shit as a forward? He fell over at the smell of the left back
To answer your question: it’s because certain players have certain qualities and playstyles. A simple example would be Harry Kane. Hes gifted with a lot of things, but pace isn’t one of them. So, if you want a runner in behind in your 9, kane is t going to be that. So, you may need to drop them. That said, it also speaks to your tactics point. A chicken or egg argument in a way - do you adapt your system to the players you have or pick players to suit your system. Gareth has seemingly looked at those options and gone with ‘neither’
Kane has insane passing abilities for a 9. So in the case of your example, the answer is to encourage runners beyond Kane when he drops. This should be primarily Bellingham and Foden, but if we were more fluid it could be anyone (see Spain). Jude and Phil might not be the best at this, but they would do it, if they were asked to. They are not - in fact they are outright discouraged, becasue Gareth must have his team structure and organised lines. So when Kane drops all we have is three no.10s standing virtually on top of each other and kane's passing options are restricted, almost totally nullifying his gift for visionary passing. I'm pretty sure I could give you a break down like this for why Gareth is a tactically inept doofus regarding many players in the team and how and why Gareth's tactics fail to make the best of their gifts. Stones stepping into midfield when in possession is another really obvious one. Foden's need for triangular passing lanes another.
Like I said, though, I think it’s a little chicken or egg, because I don’t think Jude or Foden are best served by being wide or trying to be the runners. I think one of them is best in the 10 that Kane wants to be in and that’s where decisions about it system need to be made. Essentially how do we maximize the effectiveness of the team even if it doesn’t do so for a particular player. Aaaaallllll that being said, I think we generally agree that the manager is failing to do this, but since there’s zero chance of the manager changing this tournament, supporters call for player changes. Cause we feel like the players need to for the manager’s inflexible system
I hear you. I just feel like many players at differenet times have had a lot of undeserved flak for Gareth's failings. His system needs Kalvin Phillips to function lol
That’s spot on. I think plenty of players - particularly Trent - have been made to own Gareth’s failings. Neville at halftime today was positively on fire about it: “It should be illegal that Trent Alexander-Arnold isn’t on the pitch” “The the best right back every produced by this country and he has to be on the pitch” And having seen posts calling for Rice to be dropped, and Foden to be dropped and so on and so on is kind of wild. That said, personally, I would change the personnel a bit, but I would also change the system significantly 😂
Because most people have a 1-dimensional view of football. People watch this sport week in and week out and still have the view of someone who's only watched once. People also get caught up in narratives like sheep, say something enough and it becomes true.
We're playing the two geriatrics for our fullbacks It isn't hard to understand that our best defender has been the youngest in that backline and our worst have been the two 33 year olds. Maybe play the younger guys there We have an objectively good defence. It's not France, but we have one of the best fullbacks in the world, a solid utility player who only lost one game while playing at left back, and 2 young CBs who have looked good all season - 3 of these are sitting on the bench
33 year old is not geriatric 😂😂😂
Certainly both played like it tonight
Fair comment i don’t make you wrong on that note tbh lol
Walker's 34
Yes every single player except Guehi has looked utter shit in most of the last four games but the sole reason for this is Phil Foden. Drop him and we win the tournament.
Agree 100%. I'm banging my head against the wall with this. Our left side is literally nonexistent, and you can see the way it affects Bellingham and Kane. If Southgate starts Foden over Gordon against Switzerland I'm going to have a meltdown.
This a ridiculous statement. As if Foden is the sole reason we're playing shit. Poor guy
We took Foden off and immediately scored 2 goals Foden has been our worst player and due to him, Bellingham, and kane all tripping over each other they've all been ineffective, he doesn't provide width either. Bellingham and kane actually score despite that but Foden doesn't, so yes he's been a huge issue
From set pieces. It's not foden's fault he's stuck on the left with right footed tripper, stick Bellingham or kane there and see how they do.
The thing is we don’t even need Foden to be good on the left. We just need him to keep the width which he seems incapable of doing
The one game he's kept the width he's looked better but we still couldn't score
Oh trust me I’m with you that Foden hasn’t created any dangerous opportunities in the attack, but him keeping wide is the best that he can do
It's not Foden's fault, but that's the bottleneck on the team. It's the reason there's no balance. It's Southgate's fault for playing him, but Gordan coming in for Foden would fix a lot of our problems in my (and most people's) opinions. Stop taking it as a criticism on Foden, it's a criticism of Southgate for not playing Gordan. It's not Foden's fault because he isn't a left winger. He shouldn't have started the tournament in the first place and he's been thrown under the bus by Southgate who doesn't have the balls to drop him. But most rational people aren't blaming Foden. Him being there at LW is causing a lot of problems though.
Guehi and Mainoo*
Gordon looked great for the 2 minutes he was allowed to play
True!
Absolutely spot on.
The manager being an awful tactician is an issue but he's not going to get sacked mid tournament or suddenly become a tactical genius so that is somewhat an unsolvable problem. What is a problem and solvable is the fact that we basically have no left side and Trippier offers so little as a LB it's like playing with 10 men. A personnel change would go some way to solving that issue.
If you take trippier out we go 2 nil down last night. The guy literally saved a certain goal. I agree though, Gomez and more importantly Mitchell, have been overlooked. Also last night was the last game we could experiment and rest players. Wharton, Gordon and Watkins all should’ve started the game. Just so we could see what they would bring.
The current team he keeps picking is easily good enough to win anything, he’s just a shit tier manager and there’s no work going on behind the scenes to fix it.
It wasn’t tactics that made the defender just give the ball away and have slovakia nearly score from the half way line, that was the players passing whilst asleep
Pickford has been told not to pretend he's Manuel Neuer a fair bit, but yeah rubbish passing from England nearly all tournament to be honest. I still blame Gareth for that.
Thank you. Been saying this for a while, swapping out a few players in different positions will make no difference. We play in a defensive style, but we seem to go far in tournaments so let’s keep going. The next manager might have a more attacking style but that’s not what we have now.
But when we've swapped certain players we've looked better every time?
The difference individual players make is minimal, and flutcuates massively from game to game based on their form that day - see the difference Palmer made in the previous game, and the neglible difference he made against Slovakia. Arguably moving Saka to left back (for balance) was the difference maker on the day, though that was also small fry, compared with Gareth finally encouraging forward runs off the ball form multiple players at the same time, from the team in general, in the second half, so we suddenly weren't so very predictable. Also, how the hell are we (or Gareth) really supposed to judge player's link play with other England options, and how well they fit, if he continually has them all play in a straitjacket? I honestly believe the arguments and debate around selections is largely a huge distraction.
When you someone comes on at the 80th minute they make an impact because it’s something different that the opposing players are not used to. Doing that for 90 mins is different
Palmer made a big difference today too? And yeah Saka to left back did nothing because he's not a left back, you could see how uncomfortable he was there. We have literally seen how the other players play despite Gareth's straightjacket and they've been better. So no, it's not a distraction, it's the truth. Swap out the underperforming players
Foden is droppable, we need someone to exploit the left wing and Foden doesn’t do that in the same way Gordon or even Eze does.
>The man just believes you win games by not conceding goals over scoring them. What teams have won world cups or euro championships by scoring more than you concede? Maybe Argentina last time, perhaps. Brazil 2002? And then it's the 90s and stone age football. Lots of teams have won playing horrendous defensive football. We don't have midfielders with the quality to get the ball to the attacking talent we have. Southgate is probably too cautious, and he's not tactically proficient, but most international managers below par tactically.
Because it makes retard fans feel important, takes them away from their daily warehouse job
He’s just a really shit manager
There’s a couple of glaring positions that could be fixed by dropping someone to bring in a more natural player there to balance the team, e.g Gordon for foden on the left. But overall I agree
I think it's a bit of both tbh. Some player just aren't playing well at all, regardless of whatever tactical changes could be made. For example, Mainoo looked far better in that midfield alongside Rice than either TAA or Gallagher did. Walker has looked poor and could/should be dropped in favour of the RB that Gareth has tried to shove into that midfield just because it worked well against Malta. But you're right that swapping out a few players won't solve all the problems. I don't even think we need a complete overhaul of the tactics though. There was a 5-10 minute spell in the second half last night where we moved the ball quickly, made runs and trying to be more creative in the final third even if it means giving away possession and it's the best we've looked so far this tournament. When we start being a little less risk-averse we cause problems.