Feel the exact same way I felt about him pre tournament. Top talent, but square peg in a round hole, and not as good as Bellingham which means to me he should start on the bench.
I have absolutely no dislike of him, but he's either unable or unwilling to adapt to England's play and Southgate is either unable or unwilling to tactically accommodate him.
It's not dislike to say he shouldn't be starting. He makes us worse, and vice-versa.
There's something in there I'm sure about Pep's style of play and how intense tactical pidgeonholing into roles comes at the cost of leaving lots of players to struggle when they're not in such rigid tactical systems, but that's by the by - he's not good in the way England play, and not good enough relative to our other top players to warrant building the tactic around him.
Some of us are old enough to remember when foden was given the RW berth for euro 2020, in his favoured position, with an overlapping fullback in Reece James and did absolutely fuck all until he got dropped for Saka and England looked infinitely better.
He shouldn’t be starting, not because I don’t like him, but because he’s routinely shown he doesn’t have the IQ to play in a system that doesn’t carry his water for him
>There's something in there I'm sure about Pep's style of play and how intense tactical pidgeonholing into roles comes at the cost of leaving lots of players to struggle when they're not in such rigid tactical systems,
No, that's a lie many Pep detractors have told to cast aspersions. Candidate for player of the tournament right now is Rodri, best defender thus dar has been Akanji. Doku was the only one making things happen earlier today for the Belgians. There is a Southgate problem, not a Pep problem.
Okay but you must remember that this is Doku’s first season under Pep. Also two examples I can give are Jack Grealish and Kalvin Phillips. They are not the players they were when Pep signed them from their prior clubs. To mention defenders, in my opinion, is not the same as mentioning the midfield. The attack and midfield are built around Rodri, De Bruyne and Silva. The back 4 just keep width and defend and help with attacking and keeping pressure on the other team and staying in the opposition half. Rodri can control the game, De Bruyne has his passing and counter attacks as well as sometimes swiping the ball. Bernardo Silva offers ball carrying, defense and just balance as well as coming deep to carry the ball up. Foden grew up with Pep coming from academy to play in first team. He lacks creativity because he is told what to do and has a safety net of Rodri, De Bruyne and Silva to help him thrive. That’s just how I see it and my opinion. But yeah, defenders and Rodri + KDB + B Silva have definitely not been the so called “system players” or whatever.
There's clearly a lot more to it than our fans just not liking him; I think the issue is that him and Jude can't play together (much like Lampard and Gerrard), though to be fair some fans have opted to go against Bellingham instead as they think the team should be built around Phil...
People like to mock him but Bellingham was at his best in an England shirt when Phillips was in midfield for us, his two best games were against Italy - as you mentioned - and I think it was Scotland.
Think you can also put that down to the incredible form Bellingham was in at the start of last season, you could have played anyone in that midfield with him and he would have been insane. But yes he did look good with Phillips, jokes aside I would love to see him get back into the mix for England, a move abroad to get his career going again could work wonders.
Load of bollocks how can’t they play together? What are they allergic to each other or something? You are just trying to over complicate things by creating a new problem.
You think a world class player can’t just adapt and play slightly different to how they usually play? It’s not them that’s the problem it’s the system the team are playing.
If he could, why isn't he? It is not the system that's making him misplace passes, not beat his man or not score a goal. The system is tailored to Foden and allows him complete freedom, he's having plenty of the ball so this one cannot be put on Southgate. People will literally blame our manager for anything.
You wouldn’t bench messi just because Suarez wants to play upfront in the same spaces. So why would you bench one of the greatest England players in a long time?
Suarez and Messi didn't occupy the same spaces. If Foden was one of the greatest England players in a long time he would manage more than 4 goals in 37 games, attacking players for extremely poor international sides manage more than that.
It’s a hypothetical. Also, fodens goal to game ratio is pretty shit yes, but he’s not a striker, he’s a playmaker. And a lot of those games were when he wasn’t as good.
Foden literally scored a goal that was marginally offside, and he assisted one to saka that was also disallowed. Even in the shit Southgate football, he’s playing pretty good.
Foden is not a playmaker, he's scored twice as many goals as he's created in the Premier League. You are excusing him because you like him, that's all. Sometimes players don't translate well from club football to international and unfortunately it looks like Phil is one of them. Mason Mount and Jesse Lingard have a better goal record in an England shirt man! Foden has not been good this tournament.
Who in the world said he was? He is simply an attacking player, he's not some specialised number 10 like some on here believe, he's played well over a hundred games for City on the wing.
If you watch Phil for England, he plays well, he never misplaces a pass, very confident on the ball. The problem is, he is following orders to play passively, so he rarely gets a good opportunity.
>You wouldn’t bench messi just because Suarez wants to play upfront in the same spaces. So why would you bench one of the greatest England players in a long time?
Foden is definitely no Messi. He's not even the best player in the England team.
Never said he was Messi, don’t be silly. But he’s a very good player, which is the point.
And he is the joint best in the England team, him and Jude, maybe even Kane joins them (although Kane is playing shit for England he’s still bundesliga golden boot)
>Never said he was Messi, don’t be silly. But he’s a very good player, which is the point.
It's not a good point. Messi was a special talent. It would have made more sense if you'd used Suarez instead of Messi
However the truth is that Suarez would have been benched if he had got in Messi's way. The same way that Foden should be benched.
>And he is the joint best in the England team, him and Jude, maybe even Kane joins them (although Kane is playing shit for England he’s still bundesliga golden boot)
He's not better than Kane and certainly not better than Bellingham. I don't even think he's better than Saka.
>Can you read? I never said he’s better than Bellingham or Kane.
You implied it by saying he was one of the best England players in a long time.
>And technically, he is miles better than saka. Not even in the same universe.
But technicality doesn't win football matches, performances do and in those terms Saka is miles ahead of Foden.
You don’t bench world class talent for the sake of positional clashes. He’s not just a decent player, he’s literally one of the best on earth, you can’t just not play him, it’s ridiculous.
>You don’t bench world class talent for the sake of positional clashes. He’s not just a decent player, he’s literally one of the best on earth, you can’t just not play him, it’s ridiculous.
Maybe not on FIFA or Championship Manager, but in real life top level football you absolutely can do that and tournament winning teams have provided examples of that throughout history.
Even England's world cup winning team didn't play their best striker Jimmy Greaves in the final. They were rewarded with Geoff Hurst scoring a hat trick.
Foden has been playing and he has been playing shit. He's had many chances and failed to impress. I think the truth is that he is far from one of the best on earth (especially when he is not even top 3 for England) and is in fact overrated.
I like him and thinks he’s excellent but clearly we need to work out how to get the most out of him whilst maximising the ability of the team. He clearly wants a free role so I think we either give it to him or we use him as an impact sub. By which I don’t mean a 93rd min Gareth sub
He's been shit, from being pretty amazing. So he's done in many people's eyes.
The problem seems to be, gone are the days of dropping a player and making them fight their way back into the team. At least that's Southgates stance at the moment.
He should be dropped and given 30mins to play his part, just like Palmer, Gordon (please), and Mainoo have had to do. In the eyes of the fans maybe.
Genuinely, I don't know what he does in an England context.
For City, of course, I can see how he works in their system by retaining possession, using movement and short passes to create chances, and usually finishing clinically.
For England, what's his role? We don't play through the middle much. It seems like most of our attacking play is focussed on balls to the wingers, who try to make crosses and cutbacks. Foden doesn't play that way and isn't really capable of it.
We don't play with a 10, and to the extent that we do, Kane usually drops into that role. Foden doesn't often run past him in the way Rashford or Sterling would. Bellingham also occupies that role.
Nothing against the man, but I genuinely don't even know what a good Foden performance would look like in this team. What's his role?
I think he's absolutely phenomenal and the issues are everything to do with Southgate and nothing to do with him. If everyone else was performing well I might think differently, but Rice and Pickford are the only players I would probably say are having a good tournament so far. Possibly Mainoo too, but very small sample size.
Said it not long ago in another thread...
Foden and Bellingham are the same position, so pick 1.
The problem with Foden is he's used to Haaland, and Kane isn't Haaland. So a pairing of Bellingham and Kane is better than Foden and Kane.
Maybe Foden would be better suited to any of the other strikers in the squad.
Playing Foden on the left is like playing Scholes on the left.
He is great for City. I think he may not have the ability to think and play outside the City way though. So for England it makes him a liability vs an asset.
But for some reason he is a Southgate favorite it seems.
I have nothing against the person, it's just that he's never impressed me for England.
Well before the tournament I said he was overrated. Then before the tournament I said that Gordon should start on the left and Foden should be an impact sub
He should only start if Bellingham can't.
I actually have nothing really against him as a person. I just despise his fans and Man City fans who shit on Bellingham and blame everyone else but Foden for being dogshit for England
He's an easy target for all our criticism, he's our scapegoat. He's not been good but none of our attackers have. He created more chances than Saka yesterday with less time on the pitch but Saka is allowed to put in stinker after stinker as he looks like he does more visually.
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I think he’s absolutely class, just not being utilised well, (square peg round hole and all that) and that also may mean benching him for the greater good at times.
How good was he when he played in his favoured position for euro 2020 ahead of an overlapping fullback in James? He was just as poor. I don’t really believe in the square peg round hole issue, he’s just never performed for England ever
With the exception of the first game, he's been our most lively attacker – particularly against Slovenia – yet there are people who have come away from every game with the conclusion that he's useless. I think it probably has something to do with him playing for Man City. And his haircut. It's pretty embarrassing though.
Feel the exact same way I felt about him pre tournament. Top talent, but square peg in a round hole, and not as good as Bellingham which means to me he should start on the bench.
I just don’t think he can play any other style than Man City’s boring ass thousand cuts way. He’s useless outside of that system.
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When it’s actually entertaining.
I have absolutely no dislike of him, but he's either unable or unwilling to adapt to England's play and Southgate is either unable or unwilling to tactically accommodate him. It's not dislike to say he shouldn't be starting. He makes us worse, and vice-versa. There's something in there I'm sure about Pep's style of play and how intense tactical pidgeonholing into roles comes at the cost of leaving lots of players to struggle when they're not in such rigid tactical systems, but that's by the by - he's not good in the way England play, and not good enough relative to our other top players to warrant building the tactic around him.
Some of us are old enough to remember when foden was given the RW berth for euro 2020, in his favoured position, with an overlapping fullback in Reece James and did absolutely fuck all until he got dropped for Saka and England looked infinitely better. He shouldn’t be starting, not because I don’t like him, but because he’s routinely shown he doesn’t have the IQ to play in a system that doesn’t carry his water for him
>There's something in there I'm sure about Pep's style of play and how intense tactical pidgeonholing into roles comes at the cost of leaving lots of players to struggle when they're not in such rigid tactical systems, No, that's a lie many Pep detractors have told to cast aspersions. Candidate for player of the tournament right now is Rodri, best defender thus dar has been Akanji. Doku was the only one making things happen earlier today for the Belgians. There is a Southgate problem, not a Pep problem.
That's a good argument tbf.
Okay but you must remember that this is Doku’s first season under Pep. Also two examples I can give are Jack Grealish and Kalvin Phillips. They are not the players they were when Pep signed them from their prior clubs. To mention defenders, in my opinion, is not the same as mentioning the midfield. The attack and midfield are built around Rodri, De Bruyne and Silva. The back 4 just keep width and defend and help with attacking and keeping pressure on the other team and staying in the opposition half. Rodri can control the game, De Bruyne has his passing and counter attacks as well as sometimes swiping the ball. Bernardo Silva offers ball carrying, defense and just balance as well as coming deep to carry the ball up. Foden grew up with Pep coming from academy to play in first team. He lacks creativity because he is told what to do and has a safety net of Rodri, De Bruyne and Silva to help him thrive. That’s just how I see it and my opinion. But yeah, defenders and Rodri + KDB + B Silva have definitely not been the so called “system players” or whatever.
There's clearly a lot more to it than our fans just not liking him; I think the issue is that him and Jude can't play together (much like Lampard and Gerrard), though to be fair some fans have opted to go against Bellingham instead as they think the team should be built around Phil...
I think it's more that you can't fit Bellingham, Kane and Foden in the same team. You have to pick 2 of the 3.
I think Bellingham and Kane complement each other quite nicely as Bellingham can exploit the space that the striker often vacates.
Bellingham and Kane played incredibly well together against Italy last year.
People like to mock him but Bellingham was at his best in an England shirt when Phillips was in midfield for us, his two best games were against Italy - as you mentioned - and I think it was Scotland.
Think you can also put that down to the incredible form Bellingham was in at the start of last season, you could have played anyone in that midfield with him and he would have been insane. But yes he did look good with Phillips, jokes aside I would love to see him get back into the mix for England, a move abroad to get his career going again could work wonders.
If he was selected for England, he would have performed
Load of bollocks how can’t they play together? What are they allergic to each other or something? You are just trying to over complicate things by creating a new problem.
They want to exploit the exact same spaces; I am not creating a problem whatsoever, if you can't see this from our matches then that's on you.
You think a world class player can’t just adapt and play slightly different to how they usually play? It’s not them that’s the problem it’s the system the team are playing.
If he could, why isn't he? It is not the system that's making him misplace passes, not beat his man or not score a goal. The system is tailored to Foden and allows him complete freedom, he's having plenty of the ball so this one cannot be put on Southgate. People will literally blame our manager for anything.
The misplacing passes wouldn’t change if he played in a different position 🙄
You wouldn’t bench messi just because Suarez wants to play upfront in the same spaces. So why would you bench one of the greatest England players in a long time?
Suarez and Messi didn't occupy the same spaces. If Foden was one of the greatest England players in a long time he would manage more than 4 goals in 37 games, attacking players for extremely poor international sides manage more than that.
It’s a hypothetical. Also, fodens goal to game ratio is pretty shit yes, but he’s not a striker, he’s a playmaker. And a lot of those games were when he wasn’t as good. Foden literally scored a goal that was marginally offside, and he assisted one to saka that was also disallowed. Even in the shit Southgate football, he’s playing pretty good.
Foden is not a playmaker, he's scored twice as many goals as he's created in the Premier League. You are excusing him because you like him, that's all. Sometimes players don't translate well from club football to international and unfortunately it looks like Phil is one of them. Mason Mount and Jesse Lingard have a better goal record in an England shirt man! Foden has not been good this tournament.
Whether foden is a playmaker is up for debate, but what is undebateable is that Foden is not a striker.
Who in the world said he was? He is simply an attacking player, he's not some specialised number 10 like some on here believe, he's played well over a hundred games for City on the wing.
Yes, so if he’s not a striker you don’t expect him to have an incredible goal to Game ratio.
If you watch Phil for England, he plays well, he never misplaces a pass, very confident on the ball. The problem is, he is following orders to play passively, so he rarely gets a good opportunity.
You must be watching a different game to me.
Prove to me that im wrong
>The problem is, he is following orders to play passively That's just complete conjecture, and I'd wager a fair amount on being completely wrong
Do you know who our manager is mate?
>You wouldn’t bench messi just because Suarez wants to play upfront in the same spaces. So why would you bench one of the greatest England players in a long time? Foden is definitely no Messi. He's not even the best player in the England team.
Never said he was Messi, don’t be silly. But he’s a very good player, which is the point. And he is the joint best in the England team, him and Jude, maybe even Kane joins them (although Kane is playing shit for England he’s still bundesliga golden boot)
>Never said he was Messi, don’t be silly. But he’s a very good player, which is the point. It's not a good point. Messi was a special talent. It would have made more sense if you'd used Suarez instead of Messi However the truth is that Suarez would have been benched if he had got in Messi's way. The same way that Foden should be benched. >And he is the joint best in the England team, him and Jude, maybe even Kane joins them (although Kane is playing shit for England he’s still bundesliga golden boot) He's not better than Kane and certainly not better than Bellingham. I don't even think he's better than Saka.
Can you read? I never said he’s better than Bellingham or Kane. And technically, he is miles better than saka. Not even in the same universe.
>Can you read? I never said he’s better than Bellingham or Kane. You implied it by saying he was one of the best England players in a long time. >And technically, he is miles better than saka. Not even in the same universe. But technicality doesn't win football matches, performances do and in those terms Saka is miles ahead of Foden.
Şaka has done as much as Foden in this tournament
You don’t bench world class talent for the sake of positional clashes. He’s not just a decent player, he’s literally one of the best on earth, you can’t just not play him, it’s ridiculous.
>You don’t bench world class talent for the sake of positional clashes. He’s not just a decent player, he’s literally one of the best on earth, you can’t just not play him, it’s ridiculous. Maybe not on FIFA or Championship Manager, but in real life top level football you absolutely can do that and tournament winning teams have provided examples of that throughout history. Even England's world cup winning team didn't play their best striker Jimmy Greaves in the final. They were rewarded with Geoff Hurst scoring a hat trick. Foden has been playing and he has been playing shit. He's had many chances and failed to impress. I think the truth is that he is far from one of the best on earth (especially when he is not even top 3 for England) and is in fact overrated.
You are a classic case of overthinking football. Trying to be too clever when it’s really simple.
🙄 so because England did that once 60 years ago we must do it now, 60 years later.
I like him and thinks he’s excellent but clearly we need to work out how to get the most out of him whilst maximising the ability of the team. He clearly wants a free role so I think we either give it to him or we use him as an impact sub. By which I don’t mean a 93rd min Gareth sub
He's been shit, from being pretty amazing. So he's done in many people's eyes. The problem seems to be, gone are the days of dropping a player and making them fight their way back into the team. At least that's Southgates stance at the moment. He should be dropped and given 30mins to play his part, just like Palmer, Gordon (please), and Mainoo have had to do. In the eyes of the fans maybe.
I dislike him for the way people overrate him
He’s awesome. But this is a team game, and he doesn’t have a place in our first XI.
Genuinely, I don't know what he does in an England context. For City, of course, I can see how he works in their system by retaining possession, using movement and short passes to create chances, and usually finishing clinically. For England, what's his role? We don't play through the middle much. It seems like most of our attacking play is focussed on balls to the wingers, who try to make crosses and cutbacks. Foden doesn't play that way and isn't really capable of it. We don't play with a 10, and to the extent that we do, Kane usually drops into that role. Foden doesn't often run past him in the way Rashford or Sterling would. Bellingham also occupies that role. Nothing against the man, but I genuinely don't even know what a good Foden performance would look like in this team. What's his role?
Clearly not that simple is it. Fodens brilliant but he’s done fuck all for us so far. Why shouldn’t Gordon/Eze get a chance
Some quality players just can't perform for national teams. Andrew Cole in the 90's springs to mind.
I think he's absolutely phenomenal and the issues are everything to do with Southgate and nothing to do with him. If everyone else was performing well I might think differently, but Rice and Pickford are the only players I would probably say are having a good tournament so far. Possibly Mainoo too, but very small sample size.
I don’t think he’s great for England and I think he’s our 3rd best no10 (Palmer and Bellingham).
It’s all about balance it’s just a shame for him Jude Bellingham is probably better otherwise he would be hailed as the main man
Said it not long ago in another thread... Foden and Bellingham are the same position, so pick 1. The problem with Foden is he's used to Haaland, and Kane isn't Haaland. So a pairing of Bellingham and Kane is better than Foden and Kane. Maybe Foden would be better suited to any of the other strikers in the squad. Playing Foden on the left is like playing Scholes on the left.
I like him best when he's a cat
He is great for City. I think he may not have the ability to think and play outside the City way though. So for England it makes him a liability vs an asset. But for some reason he is a Southgate favorite it seems.
I have nothing against the person, it's just that he's never impressed me for England. Well before the tournament I said he was overrated. Then before the tournament I said that Gordon should start on the left and Foden should be an impact sub He should only start if Bellingham can't.
I love the guy, love how he plays for Man City but the fact is it’s just not working for him in this team, needs to be replaced.
I actually have nothing really against him as a person. I just despise his fans and Man City fans who shit on Bellingham and blame everyone else but Foden for being dogshit for England
He's an easy target for all our criticism, he's our scapegoat. He's not been good but none of our attackers have. He created more chances than Saka yesterday with less time on the pitch but Saka is allowed to put in stinker after stinker as he looks like he does more visually.
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I actually think it’s mad the amount of criticism he’s got. Saka’s not been much better…
I think he’s absolutely class, just not being utilised well, (square peg round hole and all that) and that also may mean benching him for the greater good at times.
How good was he when he played in his favoured position for euro 2020 ahead of an overlapping fullback in James? He was just as poor. I don’t really believe in the square peg round hole issue, he’s just never performed for England ever
With the exception of the first game, he's been our most lively attacker – particularly against Slovenia – yet there are people who have come away from every game with the conclusion that he's useless. I think it probably has something to do with him playing for Man City. And his haircut. It's pretty embarrassing though.