The Jonestown Massacre was not a mass suicide. A third of the victims were children forced to drink cyanide. There is evidence of people being forcibly injected.
Certainly some people voluntarily drank the flavoraid cyanide cocktail, but many were murdered. Arguably all were murdered, from an ethical and moral, if not legal standpoint.
Yes, absolutely. The kids didn't consent to drinking cyanide. It's like the World Trade Center. People who jumped didn't commit suicide. They weren't depressed or suicidal. All those deaths were homicides.
Well... if the parents drank it first, who would be left to force-feed it to the kids? You think a bunch of little children are going to organize themselves and serve out poisoned flavor-aid to each other?
There was also the thing where he had done something similar in the past to test loyalty. Told people the flavor -ade was poisoned, but it wasn't. So some of the people to initially drink it were probably like "Oh Jim's up to this nonsense again" but when people actually started writhing and dying, obviously others didn't want to follow suit.
They had had dry runs of all of them drinking flavoraid on command before. They didn’t know. There were also armed guards they had men with guns trained on them 24/7 so they did what they were told or get shot. They did not know it was poisoned and yes many were kids. When a few got suspicious and refused they got shot at the end
They also had "practice" mass suicides. I've read that they didn't tell them this time was real. The people who refused had held off quietly and then vocally refused when they saw people start dying
There's an audio recording of that you know. One of my sister's weird friends had it on vinyl. One of the only things I regret ever listening to. It's my fault though, I dunno wtf I was expecting.
That it would have been impossible for Elisa Lam to get into the water tank by herself. (It was completely possible. There was a ladder and everything.)
That the water tank lid was closed when her body was found. (It was not closed. It was open.)
This! There’s so much misinformation on this case which honestly just boils down to people not wanting to accept it was a case of a mentally ill woman and not foul play/“ghosts”.
Virtually everything that people claimed about that case when it first happened ended up being false. Pretty much people click baiting for the "mystery" over a tragedy.
Here's a good [Nick Crowley ](https://youtu.be/AVbnGPWyrqY?si=6Dd4uvWxgKZmZ5dY) video on it. It's actually pretty unsettling how often water tank deaths actually happen. Even more unsettling with how many people unknowingly consume the contaminated water 🤢
To be honest the only tangible thing there is that MAYBE (not really) the Cecil was negligent for leaving it so accesible, but it's not like you can fall accidentally or kill yourself in any other way.
Ted Bundy's almost certainly did not grow up "thinking that his mother was his sister," and it wasn't the "reason that he killed women."
He told conflicting stories about when/how he "found out." Plus, Bundy's mother, Louise Cowell left her home state of Pennsylvania and moved with Ted to Washington State in 1950, when he was four years old. She married Johnnie Bundy a year later and he legally adopted Ted that same year, which is how he got the name "Bundy." So, even if Cowell's parents claimed he was their son during his early years, Ted Bundy knew his "real parentage" by age five at the latest.
Her other kid was even awake in the tent when the dingo snatched her! It walked across his back. He ended up trying to play dead. He heard the attack on his sister happen next to him!!! It’s just wild, man.
I’ve seen a bunch of people angry that Lori Vallow was spared the death penalty because they think it was because of her batshit beliefs and/or the fact that she is a woman. The state was going for the death penalty, but prosecutors screwed up by filing a massive amount of evidence far beyond the deadline to where the judge ruled that the defense would not have enough time to sufficiently go over everything without waiving her right to a speedy trial, which she didn’t want to do. She wasn’t getting leniency or special treatment; she only evaded the death penalty because of discovery violations by prosecutors.
So does that mean the defense asked for the death penalty to be taken off the table because defending a death penalty case is so much more intensive? Or is it because some of that evidence was not allowed in so they couldn’t prove up a death penalty case?
The defense asked for it to be taken off the table. All the evidence was permitted, but judge agreed with them in striking the death penalty as an option because the discovery violations were made by the prosecution, there was no valid excuse as to why the evidence in question was disclosed so long after the deadline, granting the state's request to postpone the trial would violate her constitutional rights, and he believed that the case would undoubtedly be overturned on appeal if he didn’t address those violations right away.
Omg she’s gonna have another trial?? This makes me SO happy because I was thinking poor Charles was not going to get any justice and it legit breaks my heart
Years ago I read all the available documents (hundreds of pages iirc) about Amanda Knox’s court case. How they charged and held her was insane. It was basically on the charges of “woman is a witch”
There are people who acknowledge Amanda is innocent, yet blame her for overshadowing Kercher, and deride her for existing publicly/ or ever talking about crime--even though the trajectory of her life was irrevocably altered by a crime she didn't commit, and she became a public figure through no fault or choice of her own--she hasn't and can't live a normal life because of this. But people actually think she should just hide away and be grateful, and are convinced, even if not a murderer, she's somehow "Bad"--like, actually no legitimate reason to think that, but she's also just a person--all these randos shouldn't even know who she is--they certainly aren't owed her being "Good."
Oh god, yes.
Edit: so many more, like that her parents were rich (middle class in Seattle is certainly not poor, but it's far from rich), that she spent a million on a PR campaign (a lie spread by the prosecutor), that she and Raffaele called 112 only after the police had arrived (disproved the very first trial, but the prosecutor still insists on it).
Even lately, new ones keep popping up. In a recent roundtable with the prosecutor and others, a professor insisted that the last call from Meredith's phone was "911" which of course indicates that it was made by an American, i.e. Knox. But the phone records say it was "901" which is the number for voicemail! It was also directly followed by an aborted call to Meredith's bank, the first entry in her address book, so not the last call. And if you look at the instruction manual for Meredith's phone those last two calls could be made by pressing and holding "1" and "2" respectively - indicating someone was pressing and holding buttons to turn the phone off (that phone, unlike Meredith's other one, was still on when it was found in a garden close to the apartment of the killer, Rudy Guede).
Nina Burleigh's Fatal Gift of Beauty is the best book I've read on the topic, but it's a bit out of date and was written before some of the info became public. Sadly, most info is spread out over forums and groups all over the net - no good comprehensive podcast that I know of.
Thank you! I just read the wiki, I cannot believe there are still legal processes ongoing, even if it’s just down the appeal of her defamation charge. That woman has been through 10 ringers!
Yeah, in a way it's good, since that particular charge was held over her by her detractors to say "see, she's still a convicted felon!" So it's good that it's being re-tried without the coerced statements held against her, though I'd prefer they would just toss the case.
It’s really wild they haven’t just tossed it. Esp with all the evidence of police and judicial misconduct! It’s baffling she has detractors and people who want to hate on her, poor woman!
John Douglas (FBI Profiler who wrote Mindhunter that the show is based on) wrote a book detailing this case. Italian police and their justice system messed that up.
>new ones keep popping up
My favorite is “she came from a broken home” when people are trying to imply that her background is just as suspicious as Guede’s. Because her parents were (very amicably) divorced (so were Meredith’s, btw) and her stepdad was younger than her mom.
So many things used to demonize Amanda were things that were true for Meredith as well, like their behaviour and lifestyles in Italy - which makes sense since they were both single young students abroad, open to partying and the occasional weed. But the police, prosecutor and media turned Meredith into a Madonna and Amanda into a whore - grossly unfair to both of them.
Do you know of any books (translated to or written in English) that come from the “Knox is guilty” perspective? I’ve always believed she and Raphaelle were innocent and still do, but have found it hard to find sources for what exactly people who *do* think she’s guilty find to be so compelling (from their perspective)
John Follain's Death in Perugia is probably the most interesting, since he got his material direct from Mignini and the Perugia police - meaning you get a lot of inside perspective, wrong as it is.
The police saying they found merediths blood on rafaeles kitchen knife, when even the best forensic scientists said the amount of blood on the knife was so small it could have been picked up by him or amanda if they touched the same object after meredith had a paper cut.
And their "satanic ritualistic sacrifice" theory because "they killed her on halloween night," or "Meredith's manager did kill her, but amanda and Raffaele impulsively joined him upon finding him in the act?" Give me a friggin break!
She has stupid greedy parents and stupid friends. It's easy to blame the stupid friends, rather than admit she did it to herself. It doesn't take away from the tragedy, but it's wrong to lay blame where it doesn't belong. Kids do stupid shit.
It's really scary to see how fragile human life is sometimes. People crack their skull open drunk driving and survive and a drunk kid makes a silly mistake and dies.
I think about this a lot. There were two things that happened very close together in a city I lived in. One: a man opened fire at a bar and shot a few people. All of them survived. Two: Two guys got into an argument outside a nearby bar, one punched the other one time, he went down, and the way he cracked his head on the sidewalk killed him. Now, I'm not advocating for any of this. But the fact that the mass shooter didn't cause any death, and one drunk right hook did, really blew my mind at the time.
I don’t see how people think anything else besides this happening to Kenneka. I’ve gotten into real life arguments with people about her but it’s more than obvious she walked herself into the freezer in a drunk state of mind. There’s no one else on the CCTV footage, unless you think whoever was following her was a ninja. And why would someone lure her into the hotel kitchen to kill her? Guest wouldn’t know if the kitchen was being used or not so why take the risk of someone discovering you in a middle of a murder? Why not lure her into another room or outside? Looking at her autopsy and the footage it’s a pretty open and shut case. It’s tragic but there’s no murder mystery involved
Not one case in particular, but some still think that serial killers won't stop until they're dead or otherwise incapacitated. GSK and BTK put that idea to rest.
The only reason Ted was a perpetual student was because college campuses were where the *girls* were. Plus, he never had to get a job. He mostly lived off his long-term girlfriends. Heck, he was 32 when he was last arrested, and never really had a job.
Yeah. I feel like there's this idea that psychopaths, outdated term I know, are hyper-intelligent predators playing cat and mouse with the cops. Hannibal Lecter wannabes.
In reality impulsivity and lower IQ is more common, neither of which are benificial for evading the law. Probably because of all the "sucessful killers" of 20th cent before criminal sciences started improving and forensics really took off and became common.
People always forget about the multitudes of spree killers and and serial rapists that get caught after a couple crimes.
Right? Feel like they changed the definition of ASPD so the fabulously wealthy wouldn't have to come to terms with the fact most of them did it through overseas child labor, and subversion of labor movements.
It's not a lack of empathy. It's an economy.
The Golden State Killer documentary on HBO (something like I’ll be Gone in the Night) is sooo frustrating. Police up and down California were *so* incompetent, it’s maddening.
Back during the early stages of the pandemic I read the book is brother in law wrote about him. He explains Joe wouldn't strike anyone as a particularly bright guy, and sometimes he'd struggle to grasp some concept/ideas as soon as some complexity came up.
What really stuck with me is how damn insecure he was when he was young (the immediate upgrading of his cars and bikes whenever his much younger BIL bought himself a new ride). It'd be almost funny if we weren't talking about a rapist and murderous POS.
Sure I do! [Killers Keep Secrets: The Golden State Killer's Other Life, by James Huddle.](https://www.amazon.com/Killers-Keep-Secrets-Golden-State-ebook/dp/B087WKXSJQ)
reminds me of the night stalker when they put that button under the dentist office's counter for when he came in and he CAME IN and the employee PUSHED THE BUTTON and it didn't work! he murdered more after that, too.
People think he was smart because he got into law school. He had average grades and mediocre LSAT scores and only got into law school because he got a letter of recommendation from Washington's then-Governor Daniel J. Evans.
He was likely slightly above average intelligence, he was certainly no genius.
Something that's interesting is the image of him vs John Wayne Gacy, when Gacy was magnitudes more successful than Bundy in life. Twice actually, his first life managing KFC's before his arrest then his second life with his contracting business were much more successful than Ted's life. Gacy also seemed to be much more manipulative, he creeped people out less than Bundy. The reason for this seems to be Gacy being working class even when he was wealthy he was involved in manual labor, while Bundy at least gave off the illusion of being upper class with going to law school and being involved in politics. So Bundy benefits from classism there which is funny since classism is how he got away with it for so long showing the public wouldn't have reacted much differently than the cops.
Definitely with attractive.
But how is Bundy more relatable than Gacy? Relatable to who? Patrick Bateman? Gacy comes across like a typical guy you'd meet in a bar, thinking of him independent of his crimes i think he's much more relatable to the average person. Bundy went to Law School, worked in Politics, regularly took Skiing and rafting vacations. I don't think the average person can relate to that certainly no more than they can the middle of the road blue collar Gacy, he was always exactly that even when he was very wealthy.
I think relatable is an imperfect word as I don’t necessarily mean people feel the same as him, but what I mean is if they were characters on TV, I suspect most people would sympathize extra with a person like Bundy. A college student, a boyfriend, trying to find his way in life, a guy with a sad but not too sad childhood story to share. I guess in some ways it’s not that people can see themselves in him but they see what they wish they saw in themselves, more of an ideal? Whereas Gacy is literally more similar to more people being a husband, father, manager of a food service restaurant, living in a humble ranch style home very comfortably. But he was also an overweight clown who worked at KFC, so I’ve never seen a person express that they have compassion for him because they have been through similar circumstances whereas I see that with Bundy so often (altho I’m sure it happens for both)
Yeah that's fair enough, misunderstood your meaning.
Just to be pedantic he didn't work at KFC he ran multiple KFC Franchises and was very successful. Then he was arrested for molesting and hiring someone to assault Donald Voorhees and when he got out of prison he moved to Illinois and started PDM Contractors which was very successful. I do get your point just wanted to be accurate. When people picture themselves being successful it's usually something more glamorous than managing fast food restaurants or a "Painting, Decorating and Maintenance" contracting Company.
Right, for sure. I do agree with the overall point that Bundy was a total loser/failure/mediocre person and people overhype him for no reason, and that Gacy was overall a far more successful individual. But right, it isn't a particularly "glamorous" life either.
A pet peeve of mine is how much Bundy's intelligence is overstated. Even in Ann Rule's book, she talks about how he was brilliant, then in the next page how he couldn't get into his law school of choice due to underperforming in school, then had to write a "pity me" type letter just to get into a school he felt too good for. He was cunning in the sense he was able to escape jail multiple times and get away with murder for as long as he did behaving as recklessly as he did, but that is more to do with other peoples incompetency than his own intelligence
Hell, Gacy even managed to get a picture with a US First Lady. Bundy never managed that. I think it's absolutely because Gacy was blue collar and Bundy was white collar.
Whenever I see a comment about how “super smart” Ted Bundy was, I think about how he essentially talked himself *into* the death penalty by firing his legal counsel and deciding to represent himself despite never finishing law school.
The reason why Casey Anthony wasn't found guilty of the murder of her daughter Caylee is often cited as 'she was over charged'. I see it repeated time and time again on reddit and even believed so myself at one point. The fact is she wasn't as she was also charged with 'lesser' charges of aggravated manslaughter and also aggravated child abuse but the jury didn't find her guilty of those either. The issues and faults lie with how things were handled and presented by the prosecution.
Yes, that one was an unforgivable oversight by the police/prosecution team. They only looked into her Internet Explorer search history and not her Firefox ones. On the Firefox there was very incriminating searches including but not limited to 'fool proof suffocation methods '.
Another bit of evidence that the prosecution absolutely fumbled was the hair found in the trunk of Cindy Anthony's car that Casey stole at least a month before and was found abandoned at a dump. The hairs in the trunk did not include the roots of the hair, so they could only get a mitochondrial DNA profile and not an individual specific DNA "fingerprint" - something that can be obtained from hair evidence with intact roots.
For some reason, the hairs in the trunk were left at that at trial. But the hair evidence actually did conclusively prove a few absolutely vital things:
1. The mitrochondrial DNA in the hair did conclusively prove that this hair had to have come from someone with long hair (longer than Casey's brother Lee's hair at least) in the direct maternal line of Cindy Anthony.
•That proves by the maternial mitocondrial DNA profile of this hair that this hair could have only belonged to either Cindy, Casey, or Caylee.
2. The hair had clear distinct ring-like markings at one end that occur post mortem - as the body decomposes the skin receeds in a way that gives the appearance that hair and nails have grown. They haven, the skin has just shrunk and the parts of the hair and nails that were once still under the skin in life become outside of the skin after death.
•This hair therefore could only have come from the head of a deceased person.
3. The hair evidence in the trunk of the car that Casey stole from her mother Cindy had never been dyed or bleached. Cindy bleaches her hair. Casey dyes her hair.
•This hair could therefore not have come from Cindy or Casey.
Honestly, like you don't need the full DNA profile when what could be scientifically determined through analysis conclusively rules out that this evidence could have come from anyone other than Caylee and could not have come from her while she was still alive.
The prosecution fucked this case up big time. They seriously put no effort in whatsoever and that fucked this case more than literally everything else.
I don't believe for a second they missed that, specialists whose job it is to comb through computers somehow didn't check her firefox browser? Horseshit. I believe Jose Baez' version. They didn't want to use those searches because they showed that George was lying about Casey going to see Xanny the Nanny, those searches show she was there all day with George which gives credence to the pool story and George helping her with the coverup (because it's likely what actually happened). Those searches would have harmed their case more than helped it.
Aggravated Manslaughter and Aggravated Child Abuse are almost as hard to prove as First Degree Murder, they aren't regular Manslaughter or Child Abuse charges. They are charges that are typically tacked onto First Degree Murder Charges. It has to be actually proven she abused Caylee , there was absolutely no proof of that. There were no hospital visits, social work reports, criminal complaints, every character witness said Casey was a loving, caring mother. The issue wasn't the charges, it's that there's no conclusive evidence she killed or abused Caylee.
They did overcharge in the sense that the best they could have got her on was a much reduced charge of neglectful homicide or something and that likely wouldn't have even stuck because they would have had to accept the pool story or another accidental death caused by neglect, and those kinds of death happen in Florida all the time without charges being brought. In reality the best they could have got her on was probably mishandling of a corpse, unproper burial, and she would have been released a very long time ago and people would still be pissed.
There was no case, regardless of what happened the Jury made the right decision.
There have been a number of misconceptions about both Elizabeth Short's life and her homicide. To state a few, Short never worked as an actress and had moved to Los Angeles to continue a relationship with a man she'd met in Florida; she'd previously had a fiance, [Matt Gordon](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/80759854/mathew_martin-gordon), who was killed in a plane crash in World War II. In L.A., she resided at a several different apartments and homes and lived an increasingly transient lifestyle the last few weeks of her life, but there's no evidence that she ever engaged in prostitution. Short's whereabouts and activities are unknown from when her last verified sighting in the Biltmore hotel lobby on January 9th, 1947 to when her body was discovered on January 15th. Short's hair wasn't hennaed by the killer, nor was she forced to eat fecal matter.
The three main suspects who were investigated and cleared were Robert "Red" Manley, Leslie Dillon and Joseph Dumais (who'd falsely confessed to the crime). George Hodel, who had no known connections to Short, was never considered a prime suspect; he was briefly looked at due to both his medical background (Hodel ran a clinic, but wasn't a surgeon) and because he'd been accused of sexual abuse by his daughter (for which he was acquitted), but was eliminated as well. There's no evidence that George Hodel ever murdered anyone.
He really does. I never found his evidence that his father, George murdered Elizabeth Short all that compelling to begin with. I don't believe any of the photos Steve claims are of Elizabeth are actually Elizabeth. There are too many differences. Now I do think George Hodel was probably a rotten father and possibly a skeevy dude. But I don't believe he killed the Black Dahlia. And I definitely don't believe he was the Zodiac.
There are many in the Kendrick Johnson case.
Two (or one or three or up to five) hours of footage after Kendrick entered the gym was deleted to hide his murder.
- There wasn’t actually any evidence of footage being deleted at all. There were four cameras in the gym and each was missing the entirety of the class period BEFORE Kendrick went into the gym. This wasn’t due to them being tampered with but instead was because they were motion activated and the class period before he entered the gym, there was no class in the gym. Not having a recording would be expected. The gym class he entered the gym to attend was recorded normally.
Kendrick was lured into the gym to be murdered.
- Kendrick wasn’t lured into the gym. He had gym that period. He’s recorded leaving his previous class and walking to the gym alone and normally. His gym class began three minutes after he arrived and all his classmates agreed nothing unusual happened during class.
The second autopsy said Kendrick was beaten to death.
- The pathologist who did the second autopsy has actually stated that he didn’t find evidence of a beating at all. He claims to have found a bruise 2-3cm long on Knedrick’s neck and that a pressure there could theoretically stop Kendrick’s heart. He says the rest of the “injuries” are from his position upside down after death.
Kendrick was followed into the gym by one or both of the sons of a local FBI agent and the footage was hidden until just recently.
- Both the FBI agent’s sons were verified elsewhere at the time of Kendrick’s disappearance. The footage of one of them changing clothes near the gym occurred before Kendrick disappeared and the red on his outfit was a logo, not blood. The other was recorded near Kendrick but it wasn’t near the gym and it was 3 and a half hours before he disappeared. He was recorded on the other side of the school when Kendrick went to the gym, walking to his own class for that period. There is no indication in the tape that he noticed him when they happened to cross paths at 10am. Also the footage was not hidden. The public version was originally heavily redacted on account of containing almost entirely minors. Several years later in 2017 during a defamation lawsuit against Ebony Magazine the lawyer for the FBI agent’s son filed for a court order to have his client unredacted in the document to show that he was the person shown on the other side of campus when Kendrick went into the gym.
Kendrick was found with his arms behind him.
- Kendrick was in rigor mortis when removed from the mat. He had one arm curled above his head as if he were reaching and fell on it and the other was across his chest with the elbow bent so his hand was curled under his chin.
Kendrick’s shoulders were 19 inches wide and he wouldn’t have fit into the 14 inch hole in the mat.
- The second pathologist (the one the family hired) measured Kendrick’s shoulders in 2013 and took photos with a ruler. They were 16 inches wide. The mat hole was recorded as 14 3/4 inches wide. Also the idea that he didn’t fit in a hole he was found in is stupid.
I’m sure there are many more but I need to do chores and this case always ends up annoying me. If you have specific questions I can likely answer them because I’ve read so much of the investigation file and court documents that it’s embedded in my mind.
There is a great reddit thread on this case that convinced me he wasn't murdered. After years of me being absolutely convinced it had to be murder. I think it was a terrible unfortunate accidental tragedy.
I understand why people are suspicious of the official account of his death considering the history of how Black lives have been devalued for centuries in this country, but a rational view of all the actual evidence really makes it obvious that what happened to him was a terrible accident. Positional asphyxia like that is so random and not at all a pleasant way to die. It’s heartbreaking that he wasn’t found for so long. It’s a horrible tragedy.
The Pulse nightclub shooting wasn’t intended to be an anti-LGBTQ+ shooting; it was just an Islamic Jihadi attack. This info was revealed a couple years after the attack at Mateen’s wife’s trial.
The shooter had planned to attack Disney Springs and was seen on camera casing it out prior to the attack, but he decided there was too much security and went for a nightclub instead. He just did a GPS search for nearby nightclubs a couple hours before the attack and Pulse was the club that came up.
Same thing with the guy who shot up Fort Lauderdale airport in 2017, he was trying to go somewhere else, but had trouble smuggling a gun so he ended up in Fort Lauderdale where he could get there easily.
Maybe he was concerned about disney security in general, so pivoted to downtown, where he’d get a lot of people, and just have to deal with some bouncers who prolly didn’t wanna get shot anyway. Having lived and worked in Orlando, downtown is the next biggest people trap to the resort areas.
That Dean Corll paid Henley 200 for every boy he brought him. Dean paid him 200 once, for the first boy then essentially said "You are in it now you can't stop now", he also threatened to harm Henley's brother and friends if he didn't help him. Dean was a struggling electrician he didn't have money to give Henley 200 every time especially considering how frequent the murders got towards the end. Dean also prowled for victims himself at times, they weren't all from accomplices.
I think a lot of people picture Ed Gein running around in a mask made out of a human face, cutting mfers down with a chainsaw. Or they think he killed massive amounts of people, or that he was a cannibal, or a necrophiliac, or any number of other things.
He was a quiet, unassuming man who ended the lives of two other people, and he pretty much just took them home and sat them around. Didn't eat them, didn't have sex with them, etc. All the weird human furniture was from corpses he dug up, ie, people who were already dead. And there wasn't even as much of that as people think. He wasn't eating cereal out of human skulls.
The real story is actually really sad and kind of boring. But the real story wouldn't have inspired Psycho and Texas Chainsaw either.
With the JonBenet case it's that the bowl of pineapple that she may have eaten from also contained milk. It's a silly, not very important detail, but people have built elaborate fantasies about how Patsy was emulating her favorite book (and "favorite" means she recited a quote from a play based on the book once) and that one or both of the kids were huge fans of pineapple in milk. Yet it all comes back to amateur speculation ten years after the fact that everyone just began to take for granted. None of the people who saw or handled the bowl or wrote about it early on ever claimed there was milk in it - and the contents of that bowl were talked about a lot!
Same goes for the stranger DNA found on her clothes being from a factory worker - speculation from some, that people ended up treating as proven fact. Yet with the DNA being in two different garments of different ages (her underwear was brand new, her longjohns were hand-me-downs), from two different sources (saliva mixed with her blood and touch DNA) that hypothesis just doesn't hold water.
In the case of Johnny Gosch, it's commonly written that he was taken by a blue Ford Fairmont. Yet the only witness said he saw a silver Ford Fairmont speed away from the corner where Johnny was last seen. The blue car was a block away, never identified as a Ford Fairmont and may well be completely unrelated to the case. But Johnny's mother and her PIs developed more and more outlandish theories and in those the cars merged, and sadly a lot of the media reported on it uncritically.
Sauvie Island in the Kyron Horman case. A week after his disappearance, the police began to search Sauvie Island, which was far from the earlier search areas. Info leaked that this was based on a phone ping from the stepmother, and that it didn't match where she said she was. In a leaked email, friends of the stepmother said she had told them she was driving on highway 30, but had never driven to Sauvie Island, and had no idea why the police insisted she had. Six months later the police began searching the mainland across from Sauvie Island, where highway 30 is, and much later it emerged that the initial investigators had misinterpreted the pings - they didn't have to be on the island, and in fact the cell tower was right by highway 30. Yet people still say the stepmother went to Sauvie Island and lied about it.
Yep, anyone who has followed this case for a long time saw the DNA coming from a factory worker morphing into fact in real time, it's remarkable. The response to the initial announcement that the Ramsey's were ruled out was beyond disturbing. People were pissed and immediately jumped to conspiracies, it showed for a huge amount of people this is about them being correct rather than the truth, and also that they've got so emotionally invested in the case that they intensely despise the Ramsey's and wouldn't change their mind even if it was conclusively proven it was an intruder.
The funny thing about the PI you mention Sam Spade is Noreen eventually fell out with him because he said he doesn't believe Johnny was targeted which went against her QAnon horseshit theories. She then suddenly remembered that Sam predicted Eugene Martin's disappearance so he must be involved too! She did the same thing to Johnny's dad they got divorced then she suddenly remembered suspect phone calls he got in the middle of the night. Not a word Noreen says can be trusted, she is a liar who is very calculated and vengeful, and will sabotage you if you attempt to look into anything actually useful rather than her Satanic Panic nonsense.
> Yep, anyone who has followed this case for a long time saw the DNA coming from a factory worker morphing into fact in real time, it's remarkable.
I follow a lot of true crime, and JonBenet is the *only* case where I’ve ever seen it suggested such a thing is even possible, much less a near-certainty. And then finding consistent samples through touch DNA years later… I don’t understand how people can discount that.
In ANY other case, if there was a murdered child who had been bludgeoned, strangled, raped and garrotted, and foreign male DNA was found in her underwear and longjohns… You would assume you have a sadistic pedophilic killer. You wouldn’t immediately think the parents staged such a brutal murder!
I believe DNA will solve this case.
Here is more info on the DNA if anyone is interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/s/Xco3BHkTXj
I really wish people understood the whole Johnny Gosh thing is just littered with qanon bullshit. There's so many people who just buy everything that woman says.
I do understand that people are careful because they feel sorry for her. However i think people who haven't behaved as appallingly as her get demonized way more, Diane Schuler's husband for instance. He's been awful too but nowhere near as malicious as Noreen is he's mostly just juvenile, a deadbeat dad and in denial she's actually hanging around with holocaust deniers and accusing people of the worst things possible because they dared cross or disagree with her, and he never gets the defence and benefit of the doubt that she does.
Jeffrey Dahmer didn't kill Adam Walsh. The case was considered solved and closed when Ottis Toole confessed a 3rd time.
This one really bothers me, and I hear it all the time. Susan Smith's children were not found holding hands. And there's zero evidence that Michael tried to unbuckle Alex. They were both found buckled in their car seats. There is absolutely no way a 3yr old could have assessed the danger they were in, in the dark, underwater, and tried to unbuckle his brother. He couldn't even reach his brother. Didn't happen.
There's never been any evidence that Ed Gein ate people. He was mostly a grave robber. He is only really proven to have killed 2 people, and was only convicted of 1 murder.
>Jeffrey Dahmer didn't kill Adam Walsh. The case was considered solved and closed when Ottis Toole confessed a 3rd time.
TBF Toole, like his pal Henry Lee Lucas, had a habit of confessing to the crimes he never committed. I don't think Dahmer killed Adam, but there are doubts about Toole too.
One of the funniest "confessions" that Henry Lee Lucas gave was when he confessed to a Japanese detective that he had committed murders in Japan and when asked how he got to Japan, dude literally said he drove there lmao ☠️
Edit; and yeah, I don't believe Dahmer was involved at all, he admitted to everything he had done, he really wouldn't have had a reason to lie about that, if he had actually been involved with that murder.
That's also why I wrote "considered" closed. I'm not sold on the fact that Ottis Toole did it either. But, John Walsh, Adams father, believes that's who did it, so that's good enough for me.
I met one of the folks involved in the recovery of the Smith children. Those myths about the boys are one of the things he gets livid about when he hears it.
To be fair though, it took several minutes for that car to sink so the "underwater" bit doesn't really apply. Otherwise, I agree with you 100%.
It infuriates me every time I see it. Like the situation wasn't sad enough, people want to add to it.
I think it makes.people feel better about it if they think the boys comforted one another in the end or something
I hear it all the time. I was just arguing with someone on Reddit about it a few weeks ago. She said she lived in the area, and she remembered it being reported on TV that way. If that's true, and the news people were reporting that, someone should have been fired.
Anyone with half a brain would realize dead bodies, underwater, for days, aren't gonna be *holding anything*. Muscle relaxing during death and Water currents would have put a stop to that pretty quick. And evidence of Michael trying to free Alex. What evidence?! Why wouldn't he have freed himself? He was 3. There's no way he would have been able to free himself, or anyone else.
Sorry if it seems graphic. It's just so infuriating.
That Jack the Ripper was a doctor.
A lot of profession of the time would give a person some knowledge on human anatomy plus the cuts made by the the killer were noted to be sloppy and unskilled.
There is still some debate about whether the Columbine shooters were actually bullies or not. Dave Cullen claims they were not in his book about the shooting, but people who have researched and know about the shooting have low opinions about his book - I’ve seen it called Columbine fanfiction.
I think what matters most when it comes to that question isn’t whether Eric and Dylan were actually bullied, but whether they *felt* they were bullied. When it comes to motives about a shooting, you have to look at the shooter’s perspective.
Brooks Brown, who was one of Dylan’s friends, and his dad Randy still insist that bullying played a major role in the shooting, which tells me that Eric and Dylan most likely felt bullied.
A couple more misconceptions about Columbine:
- The shooting was not on April 20 because of Hitler’s birthday. It was planned to be on April 19, which is the anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing, but they had to delay a day because they needed extra materials.
- Relatedly, the shooting wasn’t supposed to be primarily a shooting. They’d planned it as a bombing of the cafeteria, hoping to kill more people than OKC, and planned to shoot people as they tried to escape. The bombs ended up failing because the timers they used changed a mechanism from metal to plastic between the time they tested and the time they made the bombs for the attack. The shooting itself was just a backup plan.
Yeah, I recall a story of the Columbine shooters being pelted with ketchup packets or something, and a couple other anecdotes. I agree, people probably looked at something like that and thought “That’s not that bad,” while the shooters themselves perceived it far worse. I do believe they felt bullied and that was a big part of their motivation, but there were other factors including mental health and personality types.
None of this excuses their crimes. Bullying is awful, but most victims of it don’t gun down their classmates.
It's almost like we can't package every tragedy into a neat little box. I completely agree with you, Columbine is way too complex to pin down to one cause.
There's video evidence of them being bullied. They are walking down a hallway joking around until a number of kids come into view then they all go deadly silent and look down at the floor, then when they are walking past one of them elbows Dylan and calls him "queer" or whatever. Dylan mentioned bullying being a motivation in his journal too. I think it was more of a motivation for him than Eric who was more popular, it was probably one of the reasons for his depression and suicidal ideation, however he was also heavily invested in the violence and chaos like Eric. Bullying obviously wasn't the only factor and it's not an excuse, but Cullen's narrative is nonsense.
Kendrick Johnson - literally everything people ‘think’ they know about that case is wrong. There are perfectly logical explanations for everything that happened.
That Kathleen Peterson, from an evidentiary standpoint, was most likely killed by her husband.
Dont get me wrong, there is lots of evidence and that theory makes sense. But it's deifnitely not the leading evidentiary theory.
Which is tied into a general point I have that leads to many true crime misconceptions which is that: circumstantial evidence isn't any lesser than other forms of evidence in most legal contexts. You always hear people mention that some evidence is circumstantial as if that somehow impacts the validity or weight of the evidence compared to something like direct evidence. But that's not how it works in the court of law. Circumstantial evidence is every bit as relevant.
A lot of circumstantial evidence is more reliable than direct evidence. DNA evidence, if proper protocols have been followed, is way more reliable than eyewitness identification.
i often hear that the police couldn't go to court yet because they only had circumstantial evidence, but if it's worth as much as any other form of evidence, then why do i hear this sm? do people just have no idea what they're talking about? or is the evidence just shitty?
Edit: i just recently found out abt a case where there was only circumstantial evidence used (case of April Dawn Millsap)
I think its interesting, and a little creepy, how many women are head over heels for Jeffrey Dahmer. He was a gay serial killer, he literally killed men after trying to turn them into his own toys. I have no idea what part of that is attractive to women
There are women literally fan-girling for Chris Watts and sending him fan mail. A man who cheated on his wife and then murdered her and his three children. Make it make sense.
some women have hybristophilia, a sexual interest in those who commit crimes. Many people like to suggest it's to do with low self esteem, not in every case, it's a turn on, and discussing the crimes is a turn on, whether it's Dahmer, Ian Brady, Chris Watts, to name a few.
-That the Sodder children were kidnapped (among numerous other falsehoods about that case)
-That there was anything mysterious or untoward behind the deaths in the Dyatlov Pass
-That there is any evidence Natalie Wood was murdered
-The whole "Smiley Face Murders" hypothesis (it's not a theory...a theory requires evidence)
-That there is any credible evidence of the Isdal Woman being a spy
To be fair, Dyatlov Pass was mysterious! I agree, however, that nothing untoward was involved. A freak natural disaster and human reaction to a panicking event and then hypothermia.
No, they died in an accidental house fire that resulted from shoddy wiring most likely installed by the father. Their remains were seen on the site after the fire but Mr. Sodder insisted that he was going to "bury his children" when there was a delay in the fire marshal's investigation. Some of those bones were later excavated and sent to the Smithsonian where some of them were determined to have come from a juvenile male that matched in age one of the children.
Most of the seemingly sinister stories of threats etc were fabricated after the fact or misrepresentations of other events. Basically the mother had a nervous breakdown and instead of getting her help, some of the family just played along with her fantasy that her children had been kidnapped.
I could even buy that this might have been arson, but there is no evidence that these kids were either previously removed or made it out alive and subsequently absconded with afterward by an non-existent army of unseen people.
The only plausible argument I have ever heard for arson was that it was a potential insurance scam, but that begs the question: why do that with everyone in the house?
There's no evidence in the actual records that anyone threatened the Sodders. Even the supposed "Your house is going to burn down" threat was actually a warning to get a qualified electrician to fix the shoddy job someone (presumably Mr. Sodder) had done. The fellow most accuse of that "threat" actually repeated it to the children's uncle (brother of Mrs. Sodder; who was a member of the fire department) after Mr. Sodder told him to mind his own business.
It makes so much more sense that the guy was actually warning Sodder about his shoddy electrical work and not threatening to burn the family’s house down.
There's a lot of junk out there and most folks just parrot the kidnapping line because it's too much work to actually investigate what actually transpired. Any questions, feel free to ask.
There was nothing supernatural or criminal about Elisa Lam, she was just mentally ill.
Maura Murray wasn't kidnapped, she's somewhere in those woods after a drunken mishap.
It was grape flavor-ade, not Kool-ade.
Jeffrey Dahmer didn’t murder with the intent to eat his victims. He was trying to create a “zombie” or sex slave with no brain function, so they couldn’t leave him and he didn’t have to interact verbally with them.
One of their friends (the guy Eric told that morning to go away because he appreciated him) did an AMA years ago. He insisted bullying was up there in the list of motives, quite adamantly so, in fact.
Some reports allege that Rick and Greg Sharp, the two youngest sons of Sue Sharp, and their friend, Justin Smartt, who was in the same bedroom, all slept through the brutal mass murder of Sue and her older son John, daughter Tina (who may have been abducted. Her remains were found 3 years later at a campsite near Feather Falls, CA) and John's friend Dana Hall Wingate on the night of April 11-12 in Keddie, CA. Justin even initially claimed that he had incorporated details of the murders, in which Sue and the older kids were beaten and stabbed to death, into his dreams and recounted seeing Sue interact with two men in their late 20's/early 30's around the time of the murders. Justin's account of the two men was made while he was under hypnosis after the murders and the composite sketch, made by an amateur with no artistic or forensics experience, is very creepy. Authorities later determined that all three boys were awake during the murders and the reliability of the sketch of the two men has been called into question.
Major misconceptions have been reported in two well-known MP cases from Florida.
1. It has been erroneously claimed that beauty queen and aspiring actress Tammy Lynn Leppert was barefoot when she got out of her boyfriend's car in Cocoa Beach on July 6, 1983 and subsequently disappeared. She was actually wearing flip flops, a kind of loose fitting sandal that was popular in the 80's.
2. Some accounts made several years after 8 year old Zachary Bernhart, including at least one newspaper article and an episode of the true crime series Disappeared, allege that his mother, Leah Hackett, was only outside of their Clearwater apartment for 15 minutes on the night of Sept. 11, 2000 when she came back to find him missing. Earlier accounts give a longer time frame of at least a couple hours and their neighbors stated that Leah's car was missing from the complex's parking lot for most of the night.
Another, more understandable inaccuracy in accounts of the case, is that Zachary went missing on September 11, 2001. These inaccurate accounts imply that the fact that the 9/11 accounts happened a couple hours later may have diverted attention from the case, when it in fact happened a year earlier. However, the attacks did thwart a press conference that Zachary's grandmother and aunt planned to hold on Sept. 11, 2001 in order to bring renewed attention to the fact that it had been a year since he vanished.
The Columbine killers were bullied it's just that they also were bullies or at least Dylan was and they also had friends and were popular in their "alternative," clique. Some people can't get the their head around all that, and there was a big propaganda push from the school to say they weren't bullied, but the kids that wore "alternative" clothes frequently had literal rubbish and glass bottles thrown at them by jocks and cheerleaders.
E and D were frequently called f*g by jocks and cheerleaders, and Eric got beaten up and mocked in the lockeroom after gym class for having a sunken in chest, but Dylan was 6 foot 4 and not beaten up by anyone. Dylan bullied a boy born with a facial deformity until he was terrified to go to school according to that boy's sister.
The most well know story is the day jocks and cheerleaders surrounded D and E in the lunch room calling them f*gs and squirting ketchup and mustard all over them.
The Jonestown Massacre was not a mass suicide. A third of the victims were children forced to drink cyanide. There is evidence of people being forcibly injected. Certainly some people voluntarily drank the flavoraid cyanide cocktail, but many were murdered. Arguably all were murdered, from an ethical and moral, if not legal standpoint.
Many who refused to drink it were shot too.
And that it wasn’t koolaid! Poor koolaid got a bad rap for that one. Drinking it will forever be associated with crazy, cultish behavior.
Flavor aid. I always correct people while my long-suffering husband sighs.
Are you kidding… My wife *loves* it when I correct negligible details in other peoples stories!
Is your wife seeing anyone? She sounds awesome, I'd love to be with a woman like that
I also choose this man's wife...
Yes, absolutely. The kids didn't consent to drinking cyanide. It's like the World Trade Center. People who jumped didn't commit suicide. They weren't depressed or suicidal. All those deaths were homicides.
I’ve read that they made the children drink it first, so the parents would be so upset it would be easier to drink it themselves.
Well... if the parents drank it first, who would be left to force-feed it to the kids? You think a bunch of little children are going to organize themselves and serve out poisoned flavor-aid to each other?
Damn right! Jones was a filthy coward
There was also the thing where he had done something similar in the past to test loyalty. Told people the flavor -ade was poisoned, but it wasn't. So some of the people to initially drink it were probably like "Oh Jim's up to this nonsense again" but when people actually started writhing and dying, obviously others didn't want to follow suit.
They had had dry runs of all of them drinking flavoraid on command before. They didn’t know. There were also armed guards they had men with guns trained on them 24/7 so they did what they were told or get shot. They did not know it was poisoned and yes many were kids. When a few got suspicious and refused they got shot at the end
It took hours. The first ones might not have known but the ones at the end did. People dying of cyanide isn't subtle.
It was a mass suicide and a mass murder, plenty committed suicide and plenty were murdered.
If someone drinks poison through manipulation, it's coercion and that isn't consent.
They also had "practice" mass suicides. I've read that they didn't tell them this time was real. The people who refused had held off quietly and then vocally refused when they saw people start dying
There's an audio recording of that you know. One of my sister's weird friends had it on vinyl. One of the only things I regret ever listening to. It's my fault though, I dunno wtf I was expecting.
And it was a thick grey sludge, not a watery juice at all
That it would have been impossible for Elisa Lam to get into the water tank by herself. (It was completely possible. There was a ladder and everything.) That the water tank lid was closed when her body was found. (It was not closed. It was open.)
This! There’s so much misinformation on this case which honestly just boils down to people not wanting to accept it was a case of a mentally ill woman and not foul play/“ghosts”.
Virtually everything that people claimed about that case when it first happened ended up being false. Pretty much people click baiting for the "mystery" over a tragedy.
Yes and the hotel didn’t want to admit that the water tank lid was open as they were trying to protect themselves from liability
Here's a good [Nick Crowley ](https://youtu.be/AVbnGPWyrqY?si=6Dd4uvWxgKZmZ5dY) video on it. It's actually pretty unsettling how often water tank deaths actually happen. Even more unsettling with how many people unknowingly consume the contaminated water 🤢
To be honest the only tangible thing there is that MAYBE (not really) the Cecil was negligent for leaving it so accesible, but it's not like you can fall accidentally or kill yourself in any other way.
Ted Bundy's almost certainly did not grow up "thinking that his mother was his sister," and it wasn't the "reason that he killed women." He told conflicting stories about when/how he "found out." Plus, Bundy's mother, Louise Cowell left her home state of Pennsylvania and moved with Ted to Washington State in 1950, when he was four years old. She married Johnnie Bundy a year later and he legally adopted Ted that same year, which is how he got the name "Bundy." So, even if Cowell's parents claimed he was their son during his early years, Ted Bundy knew his "real parentage" by age five at the latest.
But wasn't he a handsome well-educated charming successful attorney with an IQ of 150? /s the mythology around that trashy loser annoys me to no end
A dingo did eat her baby.
Her other kid was even awake in the tent when the dingo snatched her! It walked across his back. He ended up trying to play dead. He heard the attack on his sister happen next to him!!! It’s just wild, man.
I’ve seen a bunch of people angry that Lori Vallow was spared the death penalty because they think it was because of her batshit beliefs and/or the fact that she is a woman. The state was going for the death penalty, but prosecutors screwed up by filing a massive amount of evidence far beyond the deadline to where the judge ruled that the defense would not have enough time to sufficiently go over everything without waiving her right to a speedy trial, which she didn’t want to do. She wasn’t getting leniency or special treatment; she only evaded the death penalty because of discovery violations by prosecutors.
So does that mean the defense asked for the death penalty to be taken off the table because defending a death penalty case is so much more intensive? Or is it because some of that evidence was not allowed in so they couldn’t prove up a death penalty case?
The defense asked for it to be taken off the table. All the evidence was permitted, but judge agreed with them in striking the death penalty as an option because the discovery violations were made by the prosecution, there was no valid excuse as to why the evidence in question was disclosed so long after the deadline, granting the state's request to postpone the trial would violate her constitutional rights, and he believed that the case would undoubtedly be overturned on appeal if he didn’t address those violations right away.
Ahh ok that makes sense, thank you!
Either way....she dies in prison and I don't agree with the death penalty. I can understand the tactic to save her from death row.
She's standing trial for the murder of her husband, Charles Vallow, in Arizona which IS a death penalty state.
Omg she’s gonna have another trial?? This makes me SO happy because I was thinking poor Charles was not going to get any justice and it legit breaks my heart
Amanda Knox buying lingerie and doing cartwheels in the police station is the first one that comes to mind (a lot of stuff around Amanda, really)
Years ago I read all the available documents (hundreds of pages iirc) about Amanda Knox’s court case. How they charged and held her was insane. It was basically on the charges of “woman is a witch”
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There are people who acknowledge Amanda is innocent, yet blame her for overshadowing Kercher, and deride her for existing publicly/ or ever talking about crime--even though the trajectory of her life was irrevocably altered by a crime she didn't commit, and she became a public figure through no fault or choice of her own--she hasn't and can't live a normal life because of this. But people actually think she should just hide away and be grateful, and are convinced, even if not a murderer, she's somehow "Bad"--like, actually no legitimate reason to think that, but she's also just a person--all these randos shouldn't even know who she is--they certainly aren't owed her being "Good."
Oh god, yes. Edit: so many more, like that her parents were rich (middle class in Seattle is certainly not poor, but it's far from rich), that she spent a million on a PR campaign (a lie spread by the prosecutor), that she and Raffaele called 112 only after the police had arrived (disproved the very first trial, but the prosecutor still insists on it). Even lately, new ones keep popping up. In a recent roundtable with the prosecutor and others, a professor insisted that the last call from Meredith's phone was "911" which of course indicates that it was made by an American, i.e. Knox. But the phone records say it was "901" which is the number for voicemail! It was also directly followed by an aborted call to Meredith's bank, the first entry in her address book, so not the last call. And if you look at the instruction manual for Meredith's phone those last two calls could be made by pressing and holding "1" and "2" respectively - indicating someone was pressing and holding buttons to turn the phone off (that phone, unlike Meredith's other one, was still on when it was found in a garden close to the apartment of the killer, Rudy Guede).
Can you recommend a podcast or book that details this case and all of these things they did wrong?
Nina Burleigh's Fatal Gift of Beauty is the best book I've read on the topic, but it's a bit out of date and was written before some of the info became public. Sadly, most info is spread out over forums and groups all over the net - no good comprehensive podcast that I know of.
Thank you! I just read the wiki, I cannot believe there are still legal processes ongoing, even if it’s just down the appeal of her defamation charge. That woman has been through 10 ringers!
That poor young woman was railroaded to hell and back.
Yeah, in a way it's good, since that particular charge was held over her by her detractors to say "see, she's still a convicted felon!" So it's good that it's being re-tried without the coerced statements held against her, though I'd prefer they would just toss the case.
It’s really wild they haven’t just tossed it. Esp with all the evidence of police and judicial misconduct! It’s baffling she has detractors and people who want to hate on her, poor woman!
John Douglas (FBI Profiler who wrote Mindhunter that the show is based on) wrote a book detailing this case. Italian police and their justice system messed that up.
>new ones keep popping up My favorite is “she came from a broken home” when people are trying to imply that her background is just as suspicious as Guede’s. Because her parents were (very amicably) divorced (so were Meredith’s, btw) and her stepdad was younger than her mom.
So many things used to demonize Amanda were things that were true for Meredith as well, like their behaviour and lifestyles in Italy - which makes sense since they were both single young students abroad, open to partying and the occasional weed. But the police, prosecutor and media turned Meredith into a Madonna and Amanda into a whore - grossly unfair to both of them.
Do you know of any books (translated to or written in English) that come from the “Knox is guilty” perspective? I’ve always believed she and Raphaelle were innocent and still do, but have found it hard to find sources for what exactly people who *do* think she’s guilty find to be so compelling (from their perspective)
John Follain's Death in Perugia is probably the most interesting, since he got his material direct from Mignini and the Perugia police - meaning you get a lot of inside perspective, wrong as it is.
The police saying they found merediths blood on rafaeles kitchen knife, when even the best forensic scientists said the amount of blood on the knife was so small it could have been picked up by him or amanda if they touched the same object after meredith had a paper cut. And their "satanic ritualistic sacrifice" theory because "they killed her on halloween night," or "Meredith's manager did kill her, but amanda and Raffaele impulsively joined him upon finding him in the act?" Give me a friggin break!
Kenneka Jenkins was not lured or forced into the freezer. She was drunk, got confused, and died. It is quite simple.
She has stupid greedy parents and stupid friends. It's easy to blame the stupid friends, rather than admit she did it to herself. It doesn't take away from the tragedy, but it's wrong to lay blame where it doesn't belong. Kids do stupid shit.
It's really scary to see how fragile human life is sometimes. People crack their skull open drunk driving and survive and a drunk kid makes a silly mistake and dies.
I think about this a lot. There were two things that happened very close together in a city I lived in. One: a man opened fire at a bar and shot a few people. All of them survived. Two: Two guys got into an argument outside a nearby bar, one punched the other one time, he went down, and the way he cracked his head on the sidewalk killed him. Now, I'm not advocating for any of this. But the fact that the mass shooter didn't cause any death, and one drunk right hook did, really blew my mind at the time.
This is really upsetting and eye opening to think about. Thank you for sharing this with us.
I don’t see how people think anything else besides this happening to Kenneka. I’ve gotten into real life arguments with people about her but it’s more than obvious she walked herself into the freezer in a drunk state of mind. There’s no one else on the CCTV footage, unless you think whoever was following her was a ninja. And why would someone lure her into the hotel kitchen to kill her? Guest wouldn’t know if the kitchen was being used or not so why take the risk of someone discovering you in a middle of a murder? Why not lure her into another room or outside? Looking at her autopsy and the footage it’s a pretty open and shut case. It’s tragic but there’s no murder mystery involved
I also believe that Kendrick Johnson’s death was an unfortunate accident, nothing sinister
Not one case in particular, but some still think that serial killers won't stop until they're dead or otherwise incapacitated. GSK and BTK put that idea to rest.
Plus all the “one and done” young male murderer/rapists being revealed by genetic genealogy PS, hope you guys are worried
Green River Killer stopped for awhile because he was in Amway and that took up a lot of his time. He also stopped for awhile after getting married.
Is this a historical first of Amway doing something good?
Haaaaa! I believe so!
That Ted Bundy was super smart…..he was a middling student
The only reason Ted was a perpetual student was because college campuses were where the *girls* were. Plus, he never had to get a job. He mostly lived off his long-term girlfriends. Heck, he was 32 when he was last arrested, and never really had a job.
Don’t forget his penchant for thievery.
So much of the success of any serial killer is less "he was smart" and more "cops were dumb".
Yeah. I feel like there's this idea that psychopaths, outdated term I know, are hyper-intelligent predators playing cat and mouse with the cops. Hannibal Lecter wannabes. In reality impulsivity and lower IQ is more common, neither of which are benificial for evading the law. Probably because of all the "sucessful killers" of 20th cent before criminal sciences started improving and forensics really took off and became common. People always forget about the multitudes of spree killers and and serial rapists that get caught after a couple crimes.
The smart psychopaths are too busy being ceos
And warlords
Right? Feel like they changed the definition of ASPD so the fabulously wealthy wouldn't have to come to terms with the fact most of them did it through overseas child labor, and subversion of labor movements. It's not a lack of empathy. It's an economy.
The Golden State Killer documentary on HBO (something like I’ll be Gone in the Night) is sooo frustrating. Police up and down California were *so* incompetent, it’s maddening.
Back during the early stages of the pandemic I read the book is brother in law wrote about him. He explains Joe wouldn't strike anyone as a particularly bright guy, and sometimes he'd struggle to grasp some concept/ideas as soon as some complexity came up. What really stuck with me is how damn insecure he was when he was young (the immediate upgrading of his cars and bikes whenever his much younger BIL bought himself a new ride). It'd be almost funny if we weren't talking about a rapist and murderous POS.
Would you happen to remember the title and/or author of the book?
Sure I do! [Killers Keep Secrets: The Golden State Killer's Other Life, by James Huddle.](https://www.amazon.com/Killers-Keep-Secrets-Golden-State-ebook/dp/B087WKXSJQ)
Awesome thanks!
reminds me of the night stalker when they put that button under the dentist office's counter for when he came in and he CAME IN and the employee PUSHED THE BUTTON and it didn't work! he murdered more after that, too.
Yorkshire Ripper too.
People think he was smart because he got into law school. He had average grades and mediocre LSAT scores and only got into law school because he got a letter of recommendation from Washington's then-Governor Daniel J. Evans.
I feel like everyone's intelligence gets over or under exaggerated in every popular crime case lol.
He was likely slightly above average intelligence, he was certainly no genius. Something that's interesting is the image of him vs John Wayne Gacy, when Gacy was magnitudes more successful than Bundy in life. Twice actually, his first life managing KFC's before his arrest then his second life with his contracting business were much more successful than Ted's life. Gacy also seemed to be much more manipulative, he creeped people out less than Bundy. The reason for this seems to be Gacy being working class even when he was wealthy he was involved in manual labor, while Bundy at least gave off the illusion of being upper class with going to law school and being involved in politics. So Bundy benefits from classism there which is funny since classism is how he got away with it for so long showing the public wouldn't have reacted much differently than the cops.
Bundy also benefits from being more attractive and relatable than Gacy
Definitely with attractive. But how is Bundy more relatable than Gacy? Relatable to who? Patrick Bateman? Gacy comes across like a typical guy you'd meet in a bar, thinking of him independent of his crimes i think he's much more relatable to the average person. Bundy went to Law School, worked in Politics, regularly took Skiing and rafting vacations. I don't think the average person can relate to that certainly no more than they can the middle of the road blue collar Gacy, he was always exactly that even when he was very wealthy.
I think relatable is an imperfect word as I don’t necessarily mean people feel the same as him, but what I mean is if they were characters on TV, I suspect most people would sympathize extra with a person like Bundy. A college student, a boyfriend, trying to find his way in life, a guy with a sad but not too sad childhood story to share. I guess in some ways it’s not that people can see themselves in him but they see what they wish they saw in themselves, more of an ideal? Whereas Gacy is literally more similar to more people being a husband, father, manager of a food service restaurant, living in a humble ranch style home very comfortably. But he was also an overweight clown who worked at KFC, so I’ve never seen a person express that they have compassion for him because they have been through similar circumstances whereas I see that with Bundy so often (altho I’m sure it happens for both)
Yeah that's fair enough, misunderstood your meaning. Just to be pedantic he didn't work at KFC he ran multiple KFC Franchises and was very successful. Then he was arrested for molesting and hiring someone to assault Donald Voorhees and when he got out of prison he moved to Illinois and started PDM Contractors which was very successful. I do get your point just wanted to be accurate. When people picture themselves being successful it's usually something more glamorous than managing fast food restaurants or a "Painting, Decorating and Maintenance" contracting Company.
Right, for sure. I do agree with the overall point that Bundy was a total loser/failure/mediocre person and people overhype him for no reason, and that Gacy was overall a far more successful individual. But right, it isn't a particularly "glamorous" life either. A pet peeve of mine is how much Bundy's intelligence is overstated. Even in Ann Rule's book, she talks about how he was brilliant, then in the next page how he couldn't get into his law school of choice due to underperforming in school, then had to write a "pity me" type letter just to get into a school he felt too good for. He was cunning in the sense he was able to escape jail multiple times and get away with murder for as long as he did behaving as recklessly as he did, but that is more to do with other peoples incompetency than his own intelligence
But didn’t he only run KFC locations that his father in law owned? He never owned his own franchise.
Yes, he later owned and ran his own contracting company.
His father in law gifted them to him and his wife then they got married iirc so he technically owned them even though he didn’t purchase them himself
But he didn’t keep them after the divorce, did he? So they were really a gift to his (eventually ex) wife.
Hell, Gacy even managed to get a picture with a US First Lady. Bundy never managed that. I think it's absolutely because Gacy was blue collar and Bundy was white collar.
Whenever I see a comment about how “super smart” Ted Bundy was, I think about how he essentially talked himself *into* the death penalty by firing his legal counsel and deciding to represent himself despite never finishing law school.
I'm not arguing about Bundy, but grades aren't always a good measure of actual intelligence.
The reason why Casey Anthony wasn't found guilty of the murder of her daughter Caylee is often cited as 'she was over charged'. I see it repeated time and time again on reddit and even believed so myself at one point. The fact is she wasn't as she was also charged with 'lesser' charges of aggravated manslaughter and also aggravated child abuse but the jury didn't find her guilty of those either. The issues and faults lie with how things were handled and presented by the prosecution.
They only checked the search history on one browser, all the incriminating searches were on a different browser. Really, *really* incriminating.
Yes, that one was an unforgivable oversight by the police/prosecution team. They only looked into her Internet Explorer search history and not her Firefox ones. On the Firefox there was very incriminating searches including but not limited to 'fool proof suffocation methods '.
I still to this day cannot believe they overlooked that.
Another bit of evidence that the prosecution absolutely fumbled was the hair found in the trunk of Cindy Anthony's car that Casey stole at least a month before and was found abandoned at a dump. The hairs in the trunk did not include the roots of the hair, so they could only get a mitochondrial DNA profile and not an individual specific DNA "fingerprint" - something that can be obtained from hair evidence with intact roots. For some reason, the hairs in the trunk were left at that at trial. But the hair evidence actually did conclusively prove a few absolutely vital things: 1. The mitrochondrial DNA in the hair did conclusively prove that this hair had to have come from someone with long hair (longer than Casey's brother Lee's hair at least) in the direct maternal line of Cindy Anthony. •That proves by the maternial mitocondrial DNA profile of this hair that this hair could have only belonged to either Cindy, Casey, or Caylee. 2. The hair had clear distinct ring-like markings at one end that occur post mortem - as the body decomposes the skin receeds in a way that gives the appearance that hair and nails have grown. They haven, the skin has just shrunk and the parts of the hair and nails that were once still under the skin in life become outside of the skin after death. •This hair therefore could only have come from the head of a deceased person. 3. The hair evidence in the trunk of the car that Casey stole from her mother Cindy had never been dyed or bleached. Cindy bleaches her hair. Casey dyes her hair. •This hair could therefore not have come from Cindy or Casey. Honestly, like you don't need the full DNA profile when what could be scientifically determined through analysis conclusively rules out that this evidence could have come from anyone other than Caylee and could not have come from her while she was still alive. The prosecution fucked this case up big time. They seriously put no effort in whatsoever and that fucked this case more than literally everything else.
I don't believe for a second they missed that, specialists whose job it is to comb through computers somehow didn't check her firefox browser? Horseshit. I believe Jose Baez' version. They didn't want to use those searches because they showed that George was lying about Casey going to see Xanny the Nanny, those searches show she was there all day with George which gives credence to the pool story and George helping her with the coverup (because it's likely what actually happened). Those searches would have harmed their case more than helped it.
People are so fucking blinded by their emotions as it relates to this entire case.
I have thought this same thing cthing for years.
Aggravated Manslaughter and Aggravated Child Abuse are almost as hard to prove as First Degree Murder, they aren't regular Manslaughter or Child Abuse charges. They are charges that are typically tacked onto First Degree Murder Charges. It has to be actually proven she abused Caylee , there was absolutely no proof of that. There were no hospital visits, social work reports, criminal complaints, every character witness said Casey was a loving, caring mother. The issue wasn't the charges, it's that there's no conclusive evidence she killed or abused Caylee. They did overcharge in the sense that the best they could have got her on was a much reduced charge of neglectful homicide or something and that likely wouldn't have even stuck because they would have had to accept the pool story or another accidental death caused by neglect, and those kinds of death happen in Florida all the time without charges being brought. In reality the best they could have got her on was probably mishandling of a corpse, unproper burial, and she would have been released a very long time ago and people would still be pissed. There was no case, regardless of what happened the Jury made the right decision.
100% correct. The jury did what they were sworn in to do. Being a DP case was ridiculous overcharging
That is what over charging means in law though..l
There have been a number of misconceptions about both Elizabeth Short's life and her homicide. To state a few, Short never worked as an actress and had moved to Los Angeles to continue a relationship with a man she'd met in Florida; she'd previously had a fiance, [Matt Gordon](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/80759854/mathew_martin-gordon), who was killed in a plane crash in World War II. In L.A., she resided at a several different apartments and homes and lived an increasingly transient lifestyle the last few weeks of her life, but there's no evidence that she ever engaged in prostitution. Short's whereabouts and activities are unknown from when her last verified sighting in the Biltmore hotel lobby on January 9th, 1947 to when her body was discovered on January 15th. Short's hair wasn't hennaed by the killer, nor was she forced to eat fecal matter. The three main suspects who were investigated and cleared were Robert "Red" Manley, Leslie Dillon and Joseph Dumais (who'd falsely confessed to the crime). George Hodel, who had no known connections to Short, was never considered a prime suspect; he was briefly looked at due to both his medical background (Hodel ran a clinic, but wasn't a surgeon) and because he'd been accused of sexual abuse by his daughter (for which he was acquitted), but was eliminated as well. There's no evidence that George Hodel ever murdered anyone.
Steve Hodel pretty much wants to blame his father for essentially every notorious unsolved crime.
Steve Hodel is unhinged.
He’s a hack and a half.
He really does. I never found his evidence that his father, George murdered Elizabeth Short all that compelling to begin with. I don't believe any of the photos Steve claims are of Elizabeth are actually Elizabeth. There are too many differences. Now I do think George Hodel was probably a rotten father and possibly a skeevy dude. But I don't believe he killed the Black Dahlia. And I definitely don't believe he was the Zodiac.
There are many in the Kendrick Johnson case. Two (or one or three or up to five) hours of footage after Kendrick entered the gym was deleted to hide his murder. - There wasn’t actually any evidence of footage being deleted at all. There were four cameras in the gym and each was missing the entirety of the class period BEFORE Kendrick went into the gym. This wasn’t due to them being tampered with but instead was because they were motion activated and the class period before he entered the gym, there was no class in the gym. Not having a recording would be expected. The gym class he entered the gym to attend was recorded normally. Kendrick was lured into the gym to be murdered. - Kendrick wasn’t lured into the gym. He had gym that period. He’s recorded leaving his previous class and walking to the gym alone and normally. His gym class began three minutes after he arrived and all his classmates agreed nothing unusual happened during class. The second autopsy said Kendrick was beaten to death. - The pathologist who did the second autopsy has actually stated that he didn’t find evidence of a beating at all. He claims to have found a bruise 2-3cm long on Knedrick’s neck and that a pressure there could theoretically stop Kendrick’s heart. He says the rest of the “injuries” are from his position upside down after death. Kendrick was followed into the gym by one or both of the sons of a local FBI agent and the footage was hidden until just recently. - Both the FBI agent’s sons were verified elsewhere at the time of Kendrick’s disappearance. The footage of one of them changing clothes near the gym occurred before Kendrick disappeared and the red on his outfit was a logo, not blood. The other was recorded near Kendrick but it wasn’t near the gym and it was 3 and a half hours before he disappeared. He was recorded on the other side of the school when Kendrick went to the gym, walking to his own class for that period. There is no indication in the tape that he noticed him when they happened to cross paths at 10am. Also the footage was not hidden. The public version was originally heavily redacted on account of containing almost entirely minors. Several years later in 2017 during a defamation lawsuit against Ebony Magazine the lawyer for the FBI agent’s son filed for a court order to have his client unredacted in the document to show that he was the person shown on the other side of campus when Kendrick went into the gym. Kendrick was found with his arms behind him. - Kendrick was in rigor mortis when removed from the mat. He had one arm curled above his head as if he were reaching and fell on it and the other was across his chest with the elbow bent so his hand was curled under his chin. Kendrick’s shoulders were 19 inches wide and he wouldn’t have fit into the 14 inch hole in the mat. - The second pathologist (the one the family hired) measured Kendrick’s shoulders in 2013 and took photos with a ruler. They were 16 inches wide. The mat hole was recorded as 14 3/4 inches wide. Also the idea that he didn’t fit in a hole he was found in is stupid. I’m sure there are many more but I need to do chores and this case always ends up annoying me. If you have specific questions I can likely answer them because I’ve read so much of the investigation file and court documents that it’s embedded in my mind.
There is a great reddit thread on this case that convinced me he wasn't murdered. After years of me being absolutely convinced it had to be murder. I think it was a terrible unfortunate accidental tragedy.
Can you find the thread?
Found it! It's from 8 years ago but still very concise. https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/s/3l2ORSeNh4
Those poor parents are just in denial and being taken advantage of.
imho, they are complicit in the grift to at least a certain extent.
I understand why people are suspicious of the official account of his death considering the history of how Black lives have been devalued for centuries in this country, but a rational view of all the actual evidence really makes it obvious that what happened to him was a terrible accident. Positional asphyxia like that is so random and not at all a pleasant way to die. It’s heartbreaking that he wasn’t found for so long. It’s a horrible tragedy.
The Manson family didn't cut out Sharon Tate's baby and kill it.
That one still gets reported in mainstream media.
The Pulse nightclub shooting wasn’t intended to be an anti-LGBTQ+ shooting; it was just an Islamic Jihadi attack. This info was revealed a couple years after the attack at Mateen’s wife’s trial. The shooter had planned to attack Disney Springs and was seen on camera casing it out prior to the attack, but he decided there was too much security and went for a nightclub instead. He just did a GPS search for nearby nightclubs a couple hours before the attack and Pulse was the club that came up.
Same thing with the guy who shot up Fort Lauderdale airport in 2017, he was trying to go somewhere else, but had trouble smuggling a gun so he ended up in Fort Lauderdale where he could get there easily.
Wow, I had never heard this before.
I've never heard that. It's really surprising because Pulse wouldn't be considered close to Disney. It's like 45 minutes away.
Maybe he was concerned about disney security in general, so pivoted to downtown, where he’d get a lot of people, and just have to deal with some bouncers who prolly didn’t wanna get shot anyway. Having lived and worked in Orlando, downtown is the next biggest people trap to the resort areas.
I remember reading about that. She was ultimately acquitted.
That Dean Corll paid Henley 200 for every boy he brought him. Dean paid him 200 once, for the first boy then essentially said "You are in it now you can't stop now", he also threatened to harm Henley's brother and friends if he didn't help him. Dean was a struggling electrician he didn't have money to give Henley 200 every time especially considering how frequent the murders got towards the end. Dean also prowled for victims himself at times, they weren't all from accomplices.
I think a lot of people picture Ed Gein running around in a mask made out of a human face, cutting mfers down with a chainsaw. Or they think he killed massive amounts of people, or that he was a cannibal, or a necrophiliac, or any number of other things. He was a quiet, unassuming man who ended the lives of two other people, and he pretty much just took them home and sat them around. Didn't eat them, didn't have sex with them, etc. All the weird human furniture was from corpses he dug up, ie, people who were already dead. And there wasn't even as much of that as people think. He wasn't eating cereal out of human skulls. The real story is actually really sad and kind of boring. But the real story wouldn't have inspired Psycho and Texas Chainsaw either.
With the JonBenet case it's that the bowl of pineapple that she may have eaten from also contained milk. It's a silly, not very important detail, but people have built elaborate fantasies about how Patsy was emulating her favorite book (and "favorite" means she recited a quote from a play based on the book once) and that one or both of the kids were huge fans of pineapple in milk. Yet it all comes back to amateur speculation ten years after the fact that everyone just began to take for granted. None of the people who saw or handled the bowl or wrote about it early on ever claimed there was milk in it - and the contents of that bowl were talked about a lot! Same goes for the stranger DNA found on her clothes being from a factory worker - speculation from some, that people ended up treating as proven fact. Yet with the DNA being in two different garments of different ages (her underwear was brand new, her longjohns were hand-me-downs), from two different sources (saliva mixed with her blood and touch DNA) that hypothesis just doesn't hold water. In the case of Johnny Gosch, it's commonly written that he was taken by a blue Ford Fairmont. Yet the only witness said he saw a silver Ford Fairmont speed away from the corner where Johnny was last seen. The blue car was a block away, never identified as a Ford Fairmont and may well be completely unrelated to the case. But Johnny's mother and her PIs developed more and more outlandish theories and in those the cars merged, and sadly a lot of the media reported on it uncritically. Sauvie Island in the Kyron Horman case. A week after his disappearance, the police began to search Sauvie Island, which was far from the earlier search areas. Info leaked that this was based on a phone ping from the stepmother, and that it didn't match where she said she was. In a leaked email, friends of the stepmother said she had told them she was driving on highway 30, but had never driven to Sauvie Island, and had no idea why the police insisted she had. Six months later the police began searching the mainland across from Sauvie Island, where highway 30 is, and much later it emerged that the initial investigators had misinterpreted the pings - they didn't have to be on the island, and in fact the cell tower was right by highway 30. Yet people still say the stepmother went to Sauvie Island and lied about it.
Yep, anyone who has followed this case for a long time saw the DNA coming from a factory worker morphing into fact in real time, it's remarkable. The response to the initial announcement that the Ramsey's were ruled out was beyond disturbing. People were pissed and immediately jumped to conspiracies, it showed for a huge amount of people this is about them being correct rather than the truth, and also that they've got so emotionally invested in the case that they intensely despise the Ramsey's and wouldn't change their mind even if it was conclusively proven it was an intruder. The funny thing about the PI you mention Sam Spade is Noreen eventually fell out with him because he said he doesn't believe Johnny was targeted which went against her QAnon horseshit theories. She then suddenly remembered that Sam predicted Eugene Martin's disappearance so he must be involved too! She did the same thing to Johnny's dad they got divorced then she suddenly remembered suspect phone calls he got in the middle of the night. Not a word Noreen says can be trusted, she is a liar who is very calculated and vengeful, and will sabotage you if you attempt to look into anything actually useful rather than her Satanic Panic nonsense.
> Yep, anyone who has followed this case for a long time saw the DNA coming from a factory worker morphing into fact in real time, it's remarkable. I follow a lot of true crime, and JonBenet is the *only* case where I’ve ever seen it suggested such a thing is even possible, much less a near-certainty. And then finding consistent samples through touch DNA years later… I don’t understand how people can discount that.
I've heard it come up as a suggestion in other cases since then because of the JBR case. Yet I don't think it's ever been proven to have happened lol
In ANY other case, if there was a murdered child who had been bludgeoned, strangled, raped and garrotted, and foreign male DNA was found in her underwear and longjohns… You would assume you have a sadistic pedophilic killer. You wouldn’t immediately think the parents staged such a brutal murder! I believe DNA will solve this case. Here is more info on the DNA if anyone is interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/s/Xco3BHkTXj
The people who think it was her brother really take the cake.
I really wish people understood the whole Johnny Gosh thing is just littered with qanon bullshit. There's so many people who just buy everything that woman says.
I do understand that people are careful because they feel sorry for her. However i think people who haven't behaved as appallingly as her get demonized way more, Diane Schuler's husband for instance. He's been awful too but nowhere near as malicious as Noreen is he's mostly just juvenile, a deadbeat dad and in denial she's actually hanging around with holocaust deniers and accusing people of the worst things possible because they dared cross or disagree with her, and he never gets the defence and benefit of the doubt that she does.
Jeffrey Dahmer didn't kill Adam Walsh. The case was considered solved and closed when Ottis Toole confessed a 3rd time. This one really bothers me, and I hear it all the time. Susan Smith's children were not found holding hands. And there's zero evidence that Michael tried to unbuckle Alex. They were both found buckled in their car seats. There is absolutely no way a 3yr old could have assessed the danger they were in, in the dark, underwater, and tried to unbuckle his brother. He couldn't even reach his brother. Didn't happen. There's never been any evidence that Ed Gein ate people. He was mostly a grave robber. He is only really proven to have killed 2 people, and was only convicted of 1 murder.
>Jeffrey Dahmer didn't kill Adam Walsh. The case was considered solved and closed when Ottis Toole confessed a 3rd time. TBF Toole, like his pal Henry Lee Lucas, had a habit of confessing to the crimes he never committed. I don't think Dahmer killed Adam, but there are doubts about Toole too.
One of the funniest "confessions" that Henry Lee Lucas gave was when he confessed to a Japanese detective that he had committed murders in Japan and when asked how he got to Japan, dude literally said he drove there lmao ☠️ Edit; and yeah, I don't believe Dahmer was involved at all, he admitted to everything he had done, he really wouldn't have had a reason to lie about that, if he had actually been involved with that murder.
That's also why I wrote "considered" closed. I'm not sold on the fact that Ottis Toole did it either. But, John Walsh, Adams father, believes that's who did it, so that's good enough for me.
Read Bringing Adam Home. It goes into more detail and you’ll understand why John Walsh believes it was Toole.
I met one of the folks involved in the recovery of the Smith children. Those myths about the boys are one of the things he gets livid about when he hears it. To be fair though, it took several minutes for that car to sink so the "underwater" bit doesn't really apply. Otherwise, I agree with you 100%.
It infuriates me every time I see it. Like the situation wasn't sad enough, people want to add to it. I think it makes.people feel better about it if they think the boys comforted one another in the end or something
Ed Gein was a Body Snatcher. A Grave Robber is someone who steals items from a grave like jewellery or whatever, a body snatcher takes the body.
Pardon me! You're right, technically he was indeed a body snatcher.
Knowing the difference is a little sus…
I hope you're joking, you are on a true crime sub.
Yes I was joking, *I’m on a true crime sub*.
You’re on a true crime sub? That’s a little sus…
Continuing education for my career as a serial killer.
I had no idea about the thing with the Smith boys holding hands. I wonder who made that up and where the hell that came from?
That was all new to me too.
I hear it all the time. I was just arguing with someone on Reddit about it a few weeks ago. She said she lived in the area, and she remembered it being reported on TV that way. If that's true, and the news people were reporting that, someone should have been fired. Anyone with half a brain would realize dead bodies, underwater, for days, aren't gonna be *holding anything*. Muscle relaxing during death and Water currents would have put a stop to that pretty quick. And evidence of Michael trying to free Alex. What evidence?! Why wouldn't he have freed himself? He was 3. There's no way he would have been able to free himself, or anyone else. Sorry if it seems graphic. It's just so infuriating.
That Jack the Ripper was a doctor. A lot of profession of the time would give a person some knowledge on human anatomy plus the cuts made by the the killer were noted to be sloppy and unskilled.
There is still some debate about whether the Columbine shooters were actually bullies or not. Dave Cullen claims they were not in his book about the shooting, but people who have researched and know about the shooting have low opinions about his book - I’ve seen it called Columbine fanfiction. I think what matters most when it comes to that question isn’t whether Eric and Dylan were actually bullied, but whether they *felt* they were bullied. When it comes to motives about a shooting, you have to look at the shooter’s perspective. Brooks Brown, who was one of Dylan’s friends, and his dad Randy still insist that bullying played a major role in the shooting, which tells me that Eric and Dylan most likely felt bullied. A couple more misconceptions about Columbine: - The shooting was not on April 20 because of Hitler’s birthday. It was planned to be on April 19, which is the anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing, but they had to delay a day because they needed extra materials. - Relatedly, the shooting wasn’t supposed to be primarily a shooting. They’d planned it as a bombing of the cafeteria, hoping to kill more people than OKC, and planned to shoot people as they tried to escape. The bombs ended up failing because the timers they used changed a mechanism from metal to plastic between the time they tested and the time they made the bombs for the attack. The shooting itself was just a backup plan.
Yeah, I recall a story of the Columbine shooters being pelted with ketchup packets or something, and a couple other anecdotes. I agree, people probably looked at something like that and thought “That’s not that bad,” while the shooters themselves perceived it far worse. I do believe they felt bullied and that was a big part of their motivation, but there were other factors including mental health and personality types. None of this excuses their crimes. Bullying is awful, but most victims of it don’t gun down their classmates.
Bullying was definitely not the only reason they committed the shooting. There was a lot of other anger and mental health issues involved as well.
It's almost like we can't package every tragedy into a neat little box. I completely agree with you, Columbine is way too complex to pin down to one cause.
Eric Harris was a psychopath. He was looking forward to college (at one point) because there would be so many girls to rape.
There's video evidence of them being bullied. They are walking down a hallway joking around until a number of kids come into view then they all go deadly silent and look down at the floor, then when they are walking past one of them elbows Dylan and calls him "queer" or whatever. Dylan mentioned bullying being a motivation in his journal too. I think it was more of a motivation for him than Eric who was more popular, it was probably one of the reasons for his depression and suicidal ideation, however he was also heavily invested in the violence and chaos like Eric. Bullying obviously wasn't the only factor and it's not an excuse, but Cullen's narrative is nonsense.
Why is it nonsense? Honest question, I haven't finished the book.
Kendrick Johnson - literally everything people ‘think’ they know about that case is wrong. There are perfectly logical explanations for everything that happened.
God his death sounds terrifying. I can’t even imagine what was going through his mind once he realized he was stuck in the mat. Poor guy.
Columbine shooters actually wanted their attacks to be modeled after the OKC bombings and shot the people trying to flee the bomb.
That Kathleen Peterson, from an evidentiary standpoint, was most likely killed by her husband. Dont get me wrong, there is lots of evidence and that theory makes sense. But it's deifnitely not the leading evidentiary theory. Which is tied into a general point I have that leads to many true crime misconceptions which is that: circumstantial evidence isn't any lesser than other forms of evidence in most legal contexts. You always hear people mention that some evidence is circumstantial as if that somehow impacts the validity or weight of the evidence compared to something like direct evidence. But that's not how it works in the court of law. Circumstantial evidence is every bit as relevant.
A lot of circumstantial evidence is more reliable than direct evidence. DNA evidence, if proper protocols have been followed, is way more reliable than eyewitness identification.
You just blew minds telling folks dna is circumstantial.
i often hear that the police couldn't go to court yet because they only had circumstantial evidence, but if it's worth as much as any other form of evidence, then why do i hear this sm? do people just have no idea what they're talking about? or is the evidence just shitty? Edit: i just recently found out abt a case where there was only circumstantial evidence used (case of April Dawn Millsap)
No idea what they are talking about. Many a case is pure circumstantial alone.
Circumstantial evidence is part of the totality of the evidence. It can’t make up a whole case in most circumstances, but it’s *still evidence*.
I think its interesting, and a little creepy, how many women are head over heels for Jeffrey Dahmer. He was a gay serial killer, he literally killed men after trying to turn them into his own toys. I have no idea what part of that is attractive to women
There are women literally fan-girling for Chris Watts and sending him fan mail. A man who cheated on his wife and then murdered her and his three children. Make it make sense.
And Scott Peterson. Ugh! What part of murdering your wife and child/children is sexy to you, ladies? Gross.
And this conversation wouldn't be complete without the dreamy Bryan Kohberger. *gag*
some women have hybristophilia, a sexual interest in those who commit crimes. Many people like to suggest it's to do with low self esteem, not in every case, it's a turn on, and discussing the crimes is a turn on, whether it's Dahmer, Ian Brady, Chris Watts, to name a few.
-That the Sodder children were kidnapped (among numerous other falsehoods about that case) -That there was anything mysterious or untoward behind the deaths in the Dyatlov Pass -That there is any evidence Natalie Wood was murdered -The whole "Smiley Face Murders" hypothesis (it's not a theory...a theory requires evidence) -That there is any credible evidence of the Isdal Woman being a spy
To be fair, Dyatlov Pass was mysterious! I agree, however, that nothing untoward was involved. A freak natural disaster and human reaction to a panicking event and then hypothermia.
did the sodder children just go missing?
No, they died in an accidental house fire that resulted from shoddy wiring most likely installed by the father. Their remains were seen on the site after the fire but Mr. Sodder insisted that he was going to "bury his children" when there was a delay in the fire marshal's investigation. Some of those bones were later excavated and sent to the Smithsonian where some of them were determined to have come from a juvenile male that matched in age one of the children. Most of the seemingly sinister stories of threats etc were fabricated after the fact or misrepresentations of other events. Basically the mother had a nervous breakdown and instead of getting her help, some of the family just played along with her fantasy that her children had been kidnapped.
I could even buy that this might have been arson, but there is no evidence that these kids were either previously removed or made it out alive and subsequently absconded with afterward by an non-existent army of unseen people.
The only plausible argument I have ever heard for arson was that it was a potential insurance scam, but that begs the question: why do that with everyone in the house? There's no evidence in the actual records that anyone threatened the Sodders. Even the supposed "Your house is going to burn down" threat was actually a warning to get a qualified electrician to fix the shoddy job someone (presumably Mr. Sodder) had done. The fellow most accuse of that "threat" actually repeated it to the children's uncle (brother of Mrs. Sodder; who was a member of the fire department) after Mr. Sodder told him to mind his own business.
It makes so much more sense that the guy was actually warning Sodder about his shoddy electrical work and not threatening to burn the family’s house down.
Yeah. It's amazing how this all got spun into this completely bizarre and nonsensical tale.
fascinating. this is sending me down a deep rabbit hole
There's a lot of junk out there and most folks just parrot the kidnapping line because it's too much work to actually investigate what actually transpired. Any questions, feel free to ask.
No, they died in the fire.
There was nothing supernatural or criminal about Elisa Lam, she was just mentally ill. Maura Murray wasn't kidnapped, she's somewhere in those woods after a drunken mishap. It was grape flavor-ade, not Kool-ade.
Jeffrey Dahmer didn’t murder with the intent to eat his victims. He was trying to create a “zombie” or sex slave with no brain function, so they couldn’t leave him and he didn’t have to interact verbally with them.
The Columbine lads were most definitely bullied. Dylan was knocked to the ground in the corridor by one of the "jocks".
One of their friends (the guy Eric told that morning to go away because he appreciated him) did an AMA years ago. He insisted bullying was up there in the list of motives, quite adamantly so, in fact.
Brooks Brown is his name for anyone wanting to look it up!
i see the post/his account was deleted so i can't see his replies... do you know if there is any way to see it?
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The Unsolved Mysteries depiction of Tammy Lynn Leppert going missing during broad daylight is supposedly inaccurate. So is her being barefoot.
Some reports allege that Rick and Greg Sharp, the two youngest sons of Sue Sharp, and their friend, Justin Smartt, who was in the same bedroom, all slept through the brutal mass murder of Sue and her older son John, daughter Tina (who may have been abducted. Her remains were found 3 years later at a campsite near Feather Falls, CA) and John's friend Dana Hall Wingate on the night of April 11-12 in Keddie, CA. Justin even initially claimed that he had incorporated details of the murders, in which Sue and the older kids were beaten and stabbed to death, into his dreams and recounted seeing Sue interact with two men in their late 20's/early 30's around the time of the murders. Justin's account of the two men was made while he was under hypnosis after the murders and the composite sketch, made by an amateur with no artistic or forensics experience, is very creepy. Authorities later determined that all three boys were awake during the murders and the reliability of the sketch of the two men has been called into question.
Major misconceptions have been reported in two well-known MP cases from Florida. 1. It has been erroneously claimed that beauty queen and aspiring actress Tammy Lynn Leppert was barefoot when she got out of her boyfriend's car in Cocoa Beach on July 6, 1983 and subsequently disappeared. She was actually wearing flip flops, a kind of loose fitting sandal that was popular in the 80's. 2. Some accounts made several years after 8 year old Zachary Bernhart, including at least one newspaper article and an episode of the true crime series Disappeared, allege that his mother, Leah Hackett, was only outside of their Clearwater apartment for 15 minutes on the night of Sept. 11, 2000 when she came back to find him missing. Earlier accounts give a longer time frame of at least a couple hours and their neighbors stated that Leah's car was missing from the complex's parking lot for most of the night. Another, more understandable inaccuracy in accounts of the case, is that Zachary went missing on September 11, 2001. These inaccurate accounts imply that the fact that the 9/11 accounts happened a couple hours later may have diverted attention from the case, when it in fact happened a year earlier. However, the attacks did thwart a press conference that Zachary's grandmother and aunt planned to hold on Sept. 11, 2001 in order to bring renewed attention to the fact that it had been a year since he vanished.
The Columbine killers were bullied it's just that they also were bullies or at least Dylan was and they also had friends and were popular in their "alternative," clique. Some people can't get the their head around all that, and there was a big propaganda push from the school to say they weren't bullied, but the kids that wore "alternative" clothes frequently had literal rubbish and glass bottles thrown at them by jocks and cheerleaders. E and D were frequently called f*g by jocks and cheerleaders, and Eric got beaten up and mocked in the lockeroom after gym class for having a sunken in chest, but Dylan was 6 foot 4 and not beaten up by anyone. Dylan bullied a boy born with a facial deformity until he was terrified to go to school according to that boy's sister. The most well know story is the day jocks and cheerleaders surrounded D and E in the lunch room calling them f*gs and squirting ketchup and mustard all over them.
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