Call adult protective services. They can even investigate a death if she does pass away. Not refilling a medication resulting in a major/serious medical event and then possibly death is caretaker neglect.
Also if she knew she would be without meds for several days, she could have taken the daughter to the hospital that day, and would have filled it via the hospital pharmacy and sent you a bill.
I have a question ❓
How does she know she had a seizure if she wasn't in the bathroom with her?
Did she see it and walk away?
A seizure can be proven after death so I'm wondering.
Tbh, I'm questioning the mechanics of a 22 year old managing to slip under the water of the tub. Even assuming she's shorter than average, say 4'10, she should theoretically be tall enough that she would have to curl up in the bath, making it unlikely (though not impossible, admittedly) for her head to "just happen" to go under the surface of the water in a normal tub.
I realize I'm making several assumptions here like the size of the tub, the height and overall body shape of the niece, and the position she was in while in the bath, but I believe it's something that should be investigated regardless.
I saw a dateline about this once and it’s basically impossible for an adult to drown in a bathtub. While seizing, however, may throw a wrinkle into it.
There was an old murder case, where some guy kept having his new brides die in the bath. Apparently he'd go out for his walk/alibi, mention the missus staying in and not to disturb to the desk, then sneak in and while she was in the tub grab her ankle and pull. Bang she'd go under and from the sudden surprise and shock they'd inhale enough water they'd actually die.
I read it in an book about profiling by some old FBI guy. If I remember correctly the investigators figured it out by dicking around with the tubs and a swimmer. Problem with this today is so many people are ripping out tubs for showers and they are usually positioned such it seems that way of drowning would be tough to pull off now.
Old giant clawfoot bathtubs used to be only for royalty.
Then, for a while, they became *somewhat* standard.
But for some stupid reason we then decided bathtubs should only ever be sized for children. So now most bathtubs are those tiny bath/shower combos that grown adults can never stretch out in.
We went full circle and made baths for adults into a royalty thing again, and we're fools for letting this happen.
Had a friend actually die in college by having a seizure in the shower. He fell on top of the drain, and the 4” curb of the shower was enough water to drown him. Crazy, but unfortunately probably not as rare as you’d think.
This actually sounds plausible though.
Having a seizure in the shower is my greatest fear (aside from while driving). It's a bad way to go, and uncomfortably common in the grand scheme of things. If you don't drown like your poor friend, you run the risk of bleeding out from potential head wounds, broken vertebrae, etc.
I have actually HAD a seizure while in the tub. It's a two person double oval, and was relatively filled all the way. I got plenty of injuries from hitting all of the tub in my way, but it would have been surprisingly difficult to actually drown because of the slope and width. I think they anticipate people doing some ill-advised napping because even curled all the way onto my side with no physical control, my face was smashing into the tub, and nowhere near water. I think it would have been ever harder to slip under in a standard tub, and yes, the thought crossed my mind when it happened that I was going to drown, but it became obvious pretty fast I wouldn't.
That’s my thinking also. Big Tub wouldn’t wanna get a rep for people falling asleep and dying. They’re angled in a way that you can’t submerge yourself without trying to do so.
I’m so sorry, but I think OP is right…
Unfortunately I agree. I would never want to believe the worst in someone like that, but combined with stopping the Keppra... it's incredibly, *incredibly* hard not to.
Hoping you never have a seizure in the shower but something to note if you ever renovate your bathroom. The reason I think it was so easy for him to plug up the drain was that it was likely center of the shower pan. The chances of a pretty big guy, covering that completely and stopping the water is high. But if you have the drain set to the side or do a trench drain, it would be far more difficult to block. Even a shower tub would have probably not been an issue. You would think the high walls would make it more likely, but the drain is offset to one side out of the way.
Ooh, actually I just realized a cheaper solution. I actually redid my bathroom recently and I got a custom teak wood slotted mat insert for my shower. If you were to fall in the shower with that it would be literally impossible to block the drain, because it’s now 3” below your walking surface. And it looks awesome! I feel like I’m showering at a spa everyday. Look into it, might be a great way to eliminate at least one danger.
Hey, it's what I did when I quit drinking. I didn't have a bad case of delerium tremens, but for several days I had sudden, intense dizzy spells. I sat while I showered and crawled going up or down the stairs.
I have insulinomas which cause me to have gran mal seizures. Unfortunately, I do not get an aura that some get. 1/10 I get tunnel vision then a seizure and 9/10 seizures with no warning. I noticed the tunnel vision and got almost out of the tub, but made enough noise my boyfriend found me and got me safe as I was having a full gran mal/clonic tonic seizure. It would have been much worse if he was not there. I am currently waiting to see my endocrinologists/oncologist to discuss another surgery. I had subtotal pancreatotomy to remove the insulinomas and over active part of my pancreas. Unfortunately, the seizures are back and low low blood sugars, so probably another surgery for me.
I do not take a shower or bath if I am home alone. So even though I am an adult my seizure risks are high. I am blessed with loving family that don't mind watching TV in the master bedroom while I take a shower in the master bathroom.
Man, I am so sorry. This actually made me cry to read, but so happy when I got to the end. I'm glad you have that, that is so important. I hope that if you do have to have surgery it is your last, or at least a long long break between. That's stressful.
I do get warning 50/50 of the time give or take. I don't have a high risk, but I've had too many result in asinine injuries because I tried to get somewhere "better" in the moment. I'm not sure staying was... Smarter... But... It is what it is.
Thank you so much for your kind words! I am truly blessed with my family's support. I cannot imagine trying to do all of this without them. I had my surgery 15 years ago and it was intense. I will gladly do it again, because seizures suck! I hate the sense of confusion and memory loss. You know the feeling of not being in control of your own body is terrifying!
I am so sorry that you have to try and choose in a moment how to protect yourself, especially since our brains are fighting us in the moment. I hope that your injuries are not severe. I totally understand the *"better"* idea. I call it my *lizard brain thinking*, since fight or flight originates in our amygdala. You are doing your absolute best in the moment and that is all anyone can ask of themselves!
Sending you positive thoughts and virtual hugs if you want them friend 🧡
I mentioned this to another commenter, but if you have a shower you should look into teak shower mats. I got one custom fit for my shower and it elevates the surface to about 3” above the drain. If she would ever go unfortunately have an episode in the shower, it would at least keep her body off the drain. It’s not much, but may eliminate one worry in your life.
I had a pal in uni who was epileptic. He had a seizure in a bath tub as a teenager and he broke his back and was in recovery for months. Since then he only took cold showers, which he said were fine. It was apparently the relaxation from the hot water which triggered the seizure.
He also almost only ever had seizures at night when sleeping and he'd wake up with a swollen tongue and a terrible headache. He said everybody's different in that regard.
if it's the same case I recall, they proved in court that it was possible to easily drown a person without bruising them- as you'd do by holding them down- by having a WPC (woman police constable, an actual title back then) go into a bathtub in court and had someone else pull her up by the ankles and it went about as well as you'd expect. Which is to say, she nearly drowned and that guy was convicted.
I think you're referring to Drew Peterson. He had 4 wives die in suspicious circumstances. Lifetime made a movie about it but I can't remember what it is called.
Edit: He was also a police officer which is probably why he was able to get away with it for so long.
They are talking about George Joseph Smith, an English killer known as the Bride in the Bath Murderer. He married women and killed them on the honeymoon to get their money. It is a significant case in forensic pathology investigated by the famous pathologists Bernard Spilsbury and detective inspector Aurthur Neil of the Metropolitan Police. Smith was caught and convicted in 1915 and hanged.
Also I think bathtubs back then were sizes differently…some hotel rooms now I swear I walk in and the so shallow that they are not even up half way to my knee and I am extremely short…
If OP’s niece is handicapped I am wondering if mom had any improvements/aides … or if this was a standard bath tub, if niece is around 2 or 3 mentally… why did mom leave her… would any person leave a 2 or 3 year old in a bathtub….
The mom should be in jail right now…
There was a Forensic Files episode like this too. Guy held his wife under to drown, then left for a bit so he'd have an alibi then "discovered" her when he returned and tried to say it was an accident
Not trying to be an ass but you are wrong. My mother died this way when I was 10. I spent the night with my grandparents and had to stop by on the way to school the next morning. I couldn’t get my mother to answer behind the locked bathroom door. Told my grandfather and followed him in while he busted down the door. I saw my mother completely submerged just before he pulled her out to do CPR. She was 32 and in perfect health. She never breathed for herself again and they finally made the decision to turn off life support. 40 years ago and I still remember every minute like it happened yesterday. Sometimes it just happens.
I read about a woman who drowned in her bathtub once, but she was also heavily under the influence of drugs. And then you have Drew Peterson, whose third wife "drowned" in a dry bathtub (when he had a neighbor find her, there was no water in the tub anymore). He was eventually convicted of her murder.
I had a friend who drowned in the bath. She was very petite, and she had also been drinking and passed out. So yeah, complicating factors, but it definitely is possible.
A friend's dad died in a similar way when I was about 11. He'd been beat up by some people outside a pub once and started suffering from seizures, a year or less maybe later after drinking, he had a seizure in the bath and drowned. He was maybe about 5'7.
Whitney Houston died drowning in her hotel bathtub after passing out from taking drugs.. If the daughter had a seizure it’s very possible she could’ve slipped into the water and not been able to help herself.
can confirm an adult can pass away in a bath if they’re seizing - that is exactly how my father died at 38 years old. he didn’t take his epilepsy medication, had a bath, seized during it, and died.
if a 38 year old can die this way, it would be entirely possible for a 22 year old with the mental capacity of a 2-3 year old to die the same way.
When you’re “very physically weak and spastic” it is quite easy to drown in a tub unattended.
ETA: on top of her mental capacity, cognitive abilities and “cumulative brain damage”.
Really depends on a lot of things. Disabilities hit differently, my sister had a chromosomal disorder, and relied on a feeding tube for nourishment. She may have been 4', and was only like 60 lbs at 26 when she passed. Size wise she was around the size of an 8 year old. She would have been short enough. But.. not every disability affects growth, with it affecting her nutrients it's possible. I do hope op sees this comment though just in case. Because it is very true if she is of somewhat average height. It honestly sounds like the mom would have been willing to hold her under, of at the very least leave the room until things happen. An investigation definitely needs to happen.
Tbh the medical advice for people who have seizures is to not have baths on their own bc of drowning risk, no matter the size of the individual.
Why she was having a bath unsupervised when she had just been diagnosed with new onset seizures is another matter entirely, SIL should not have left her alone if she knew she was bathing/advised a shower instead.
I'm 5'1" and could definitely slip under the water in my tub if I bend my knees just a bit when laying down. It's a standard size tub, would be even easier in a nice clawfoot tub...
SUDEP is actually for those cases that *don't* involve drowning (or other "generally accepted" epilepsy fatalities, like smacking one's head). Hence, the term "unexpected."
I preface this by saying I read too many true crime books, but there is a way to kill a person in a tub full of water and I’m not writing how for obvious reasons. It changes things to first degree murder.
You can't just say you know something creepy and interesting, then walk away without sharing it!
Just type it out in spoiler text, if that'll help ease your conscience
Oh for god's sake! The lead detective nearly killed a random woman in the bath by trying to figure out how to kill someone in the bath! And that's how he solved the case! Even Holmes never stooped *that* low
If she ran out during the week shouldn’t the brother have been the one to refill it? Not dismissing the mom as she sounds like a super shitty human but the niece is with her father (the brother) during the week
Op commented this a bit further down :
You’re not - I had it backwards, it was that way when she was still in school but once she wasn’t going anymore, they swapped so he has her on weekends and she’s with her mom M-F and my brother has her on weekends. Good catch and sorry for the confusion!
If the drug isn't a narcotic, I don't think most pharmacies care, at least in this country.
Give the name and birthday and you're golden. I couldn't pick up my kids insulin because we were home with covid, a coworker of mine picked it up for me. (Thank you Fred! Literal lifesaver.) They didn't even ask for his name or ID.
Bingo. I live in the U.S. and I pick up meds for family members all the time. I've even picked up narcotics without having to show an ID. All you need is the name and birth date of the person in most instances.
For real. I'm on Keppra for seizures myself, and I have a back up dose at work, in my purse, at my parents, just in case I stay late somewhere. Epilepsy for 20 years, and the rare missed doses of medication have led to hospital trips. I refill a week before I run out.
Right?! The wording of that whole email, as though she bears no responsibility and the only thing she did was find her and try to save her. As though K let herself run out of the meds and decided to take a bath anyway. That woman is a sociopath.
Safeguarding lead? Thank you!! I didn’t even know there is such a thing so that’s really helpful.
Keppra - like most epilepsy meds - lowers the threshold for a seizure when it is stopped without lowering the dose slowly. It is extremely important not to miss it, and you're not even meant to get different brands of the same drug because the absorption rate might be different enough to trigger a seizure.
When an acquaintance missed a dose, they would be guaranteed to have a seizure within 24 hours, even though they didn't have seizures more than once every few weeks to months, before the meds.
This is risk is heavily emphasized by doctors and pharmacists when starting such meds. The guardian knew full well that they could guarantee a seizure by stopping the meds cold turkey.
I literally died from stopping Keppra suddenly. I had multiple seizures back to back and went into hypoxia. Heart stopped, got hit with the electric paddles and my heart restarted and I started breathing again.
It's one medication you should NOT fuck around with.
Not to mention if K truly has the mental and physical limitations that make her roughly a 2-3 year old, you don’t leave a 2-3 year old alone in the bath either!!!
Though, I’m curious on who is in charge of her meds; if she ran out last week was it your brothers responsibility to have refilled it? Or is the SIL responsible for all her meds? I think that piece is important. Regardless, whichever parent notices a med out should have it filled.
My brother said the problem was her insurance wouldn’t fill the prescription until Monday, and then it takes the compounding pharmacy a day or two to fill it in liquid form (since it’s given through her g-tube). So I’ll give SIL some leeway for not having it - but *never* for leaving her in the bathtub alone, especially knowing she didn’t have it.
You’re not - I had it backwards, it was that way when she was still in school but once she wasn’t going anymore, they swapped so he has her on weekends and she’s with her mom M-F and my brother has her on weekends. Good catch and sorry for the confusion!
Ah that makes so much more sense now. And also goes to motive. She suddenly went from having 5 days a week to 2, and that’s hard… and she deals with hard things in what seem like really wrong ways.
So sorry for your loss. Even if K pulls through, nothing will ever be the same after this. My love to you and yours.
Not to mention if K truly has the mental and physical limitations that make her roughly a 2-3 year old, you don’t leave a 2-3 year old alone in the bath either!!!
Though, I’m curious on who is in charge of her meds; if she ran out last week was it your brothers responsibility to have refilled it? Or is the SIL responsible for all her meds? I think that piece is important. Regardless, whichever parent notices a med out should have it filled.
I'd honestly say something to the doctors (if she is still at ICU) or police. The mother shouldn't be left alone with her in the hospital room. Tell them your suspicions and what she did to the dog. If she passes on (you say murdered? Did she die or is she in ICU?), then they should do an autopsy then too.
I'm so sorry for her dad and you all. Heartbreaking.
She’s in the ICU sedated on a ventilator, but it sounds like they don’t think there’re much hope. I know I used “murdered” as though she’s already passed and probably shouldn’t have worded it that way, but she’s only alive because of the life support. Sorry for the confusion!
My brother said they’re mostly keeping his ex out of the ICU already, so I wonder if that’s protocol or if they’re also side-eyeing her.
You said she’s the guardian and bc it happened on her watch, I’m betting adult protective services was called. Either way, please say something to the doctors there and the police. Be the advocate for your niece.
ETA you should also give a call to adult protective services.
Definitely say something to the doctors/nurses. Show the email she sent out too if you want. They might need to know to keep her safe in there and keep your SIL away from her if she really did try to murder her... Idk if you should go straight to the police too, but I'd at least talk to someone at the hospital about it possibly being attempted murder...
TBH, if you know where she's at I would call and report this both to the local police and the hospital social worker. At least somebody with some authority and possibly responsibility for looking into things further will know that there are suspicions.
At the very least it's criminally negligent. At the worst, murder. I also suspect murder. She likely deliberately withheld meds to cause something like this or get an opportunity to make it look like an accident.
Not sure if they’ll be able to prosecute this for murder unless they can prove intent somehow. Seems like a case where a good defense attorney could convince a jury that there’s reasonable doubt. Hopefully she’ll slip up and they’ll nail her.
Most likely what will happen is she'll go down for negligent homicide or reckless manslaughter, medical neglect, and other charges, and still spend many years in prison. Ultimately, we don't KNOW she murdered her, but at least she won't fully escape justice. Her life's a bout to be over; she's about to be a felon and she won't be getting out for quite a while.
This is terrifying. If your brother isn’t in the mental state to talk with people, please bring this up to the hospital and the local police department.
These kinds of deaths are often written off as accidental unless someone starts making some noise.
If it's the genetic disorder I'm thinking of, PKU, it should have been caught before the severe brain damage set in. Babies are usually screened for it in the US. If it was PKU, did SIL fail to follow the dietary guidelines?
It’s not - it’s methylmalonic acidemia mut0 and she wasn’t diagnosed until she was 4 months old. It’s pretty rare and when she was born the oldest a kid had lived to with it was 15, so she’s beaten some odds!
She gets a special formula, but who knows what my SIL was doing!
I have a form of methylmalonic acidemia—reading this hurts my heart so much. It's a tough disease and I wouldn't have known her, but she was part of my community. The face that your niece persevered for so long only to die because of her own mother is absolutely horrifying. Sending my best wishes to your family, and I'll keep her in my thoughts. I hope her mother gets what she deserves. I have no words.
I'm so sorry for your family. Poor K, I hope she's not in pain at least.
I want to say I hear you and I feel for you. Hubby and I have always suspected that my dad (now dead himself) killed his partner through deliberate neglect (she had dementia). I couldn't ever prove it, but we knew. SO MANY INSTANCES.... even now it makes me so angry.
It ate at me for years how he treated her, and her funeral was the day I went no contact with him for good. The last time I saw him was on his death bed in hospital, but he was pretty much already gone by then and only the machines were keeping him breathing. Maybe this sounds awful, but it felt good to be asked by the doctor if I wanted them to switch the ventilator off. I said yes without even thinking. It felt like justice of sorts for what he did to his partner.
You'll likely never get full closure on this for K, so I hope at least you all get grief therapy when the time comes.
Call social services yourself as well. Don’t just rely on the hospital. I used to work in adult protective services and the more reports, the better.
ETA..you can make it an anonymous report but the law should protect your identity. They won’t tell her you called.
This def sounds sus ... But as a pain chronic it happens way too often for me that my meds are out of stock. There's a chance that's what happened. But it's not up to you or me to do police work. What IS up to us as civilians is telling the authorities when something looks kinda wrong - and this is definitely an accident that needs to be looked further into!!!
Tell the staff at the hospital about these things and ask them if they report it or if you have to. Let them have your info to pass on to the authorities. If this WAS just a horrible accident, your ex-SIL too have an interest in having this looked at instead of it hanging over her as an unspoken accusation for decades to come. And if she's guilty and pissed about you speaking up, who cares?
I used to work at a pharmacy up until recently. A few months ago we had some issues getting a specific strength of Keppra in stock, not because it wasn't available, but because it was just too expensive for the company. We'd hit the allowed allotment for that month, and no one had informed us. That... really sucked.
If those meds are very expensive, maybe to "have run put of them" means they could not afford to buy new ones. In those shitty countries that leave sick people all alone or on the mercy of relatives, do get your meds can be a problem.
If they are in the US, I’m sure OP’s niece gets state insurance and they will fill and cannot even enforce a copay if she doesn’t have it to pay. They still have to give them the meds.
OP said K had the mentality of a 2-3y old and her mother left to the story to get more meds, because K "ran out of Keppra", like wtf, this was the mothers responsibility, not K's? So she left her in the bathtub, while she went to the store. Would you also leave your 2-3y old in a bathtub while leaving the house? And it's also weird, as another commenter said, how big the bathtub or K was to be able to drown.
I didn't say anything about fault. I simply asked for clarification about the relationships because OP kept calling her the "SIL" and "guardian" instead of calling her K's mother.
It never says her mother went to the store? She was probably just in another room. And given the history with the dog and the additional details OP shared about their circumstances, she might've heard the seizure and stood there and watched until it was too late.
If it’s “too soon to fill” based on ins, that means the patient should have some left. Ins puts those blocks in so patients don’t fill too early, they don’t care if you fill late. So unless they changed her dose, she was giving the medication wrong, she lost some, etc. she should have had enough to get through the 29th at the very least. And compounding the drug doesn’t take days, it takes an hour at most to actually do it, but it depends on the actual pharmacies schedule (I make sure to give myself 4 days for everything incase I have a ton of stuff to do. Also some meds only are good for 35 days once compounded, so we have to factor that in to when we compound them, based on when patient last picked them up.
-sincerely a compounding pharmacy technician
Wow. It seems like a lot of people are quick to jump to conclusions and convict the SIL.
Everything that I’ve read so far is circumstantial.
From an investigative standpoint, there’s not enough to determine that this was intentional.
OP I would suggest that you contact the police who can investigate this. Let them handle it.
Should the niece have been left alone in the bath?
I don’t know, that may be questionable depending on circumstances and ability.
Does her mother typically remain in the bathroom when she bathes?
Does the mother bathe her?
Is your niece capable of bathing herself?
Does the father bathe her, or remain in the bathroom when she is in his care?
Was there a specific reason why she did not get her medication?
Was it pharmacy issues, insurance holds, or was a parent unable or unwilling to pick it up?
Who was responsible for that?
How long has your niece had seizures, and how often did they occur?
The email about your niece may seem disturbing, but it could also be taken out of context.
People who are dealing with stress, anxiety, grief, or fear don’t always express themselves the way other people think they should.
The email reads very matter-of-fact to me.
Was the SIL in shock when she wrote it?
Imagine finding your child unconscious and not responsive.
How would you react?
OP what does your brother say about all of this?
Does he suspect foul play?
How’s his relationship with the SIL?
How’s your relationship with the SIL?
I would highly suggest that until you have absolute proof that your SIL intended to intentionally inflict injury or death on your niece, don’t allow your suspicions to influence your judgment or actions towards others.
I think I read above that the mom was being kept away from her daughter.
Is that because the police or hospital thought she was involved?
Is that because the doctor is allowing consideration to your suspicions?
Imagine if that was your child and others wrongly assumed that you were guilty.
How would you feel?
How would you feel being deprived of possibly spending the last moments with your child?
>
What is that called?
My wife has OTCD or Gelsinger's disease. Just diagnosed 18 months ago at 38. Has avoided meat all of her life. Her ammonia levels will build and build until first she's intoxicated and crazy, then comatose. Has never suffered permanent damage (that we know of) but if she starts acting child like and silly I know her ammonia is really high.
She's in a gene therapy clinical trial for it.
My late ex husband died of liver failure. Due to his illness he suffered from hepatic encephalopathy. He was already a terrible person but man when his ammonia levels spiked he was insane. Shit is no joke.
Methylmalonic acidemia mut0! She was diagnosed at 4 months old because she had no muscle tone and wasn’t holding her head up yet. It sounds like the same kind of thing, just to different degrees! I know my brother has mentioned her ammonia levels in the past. Best wishes that the therapy works!!
How involved were you with her care? Who was her guardian and who was her AFC caregiver? She has a service coordinator. Do you know their name? Do you have their contact information? If you do call them.
I think your accusation is a stretch. You said the pharmacy refused to refill the meds, that's not your SIL's fault. You said K only started the meds 1 month ago after her first seizure. Your SIL may have been giving her baths for 22 years with no issue and did not foresee it becoming a problem. Your SIL also called 911 immediately. If her intentions were to kill her, why not wait to make sure she was dead?
I think you are reaching and it is entirely possible you're accusing an innocent distraught mother of attempted murder.
My daughter has been on keppra for years for seizures. Her last seizure was 7 years ago, so the keppra is working. And the child has not taken a bath without me nearby her entire life. Now that she's more modest, I sit in my chair right outside the bathroom, bit I can hear her in there.
Just sayin.
I wasn’t up to date - when she “graduated” from school they swapped so my brother has her on the weekends and my ex-SIL has her during the week. My ex-SIL has legal guardianship, so she’s the one with the authority to handle K’s medical care.
It is very likely this was an accident. Classic case of Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Don't jump into doing something dramatic like calling police/protective services that could result in a grieving mother going to jail.
Once you call the police it is out of your control. We have a horrible criminal justice system that gives insane punishments all the time. Think of it this way: how sure are you this was not just an accident? Subtract that from 100% and ask yourself if you are ok with her going to jail.
Fair enough if the answer is yes, because if it was an accident she clearly should have refilled the meds. But don't jump into this without giving serious thought to "Is there a chance I am wrong about her wanting her daughter dead?"
Even if an autopsy can't prove murder/foul play, your SIL's email is enough to prove admitted negligence.
Objectively it is a CARE TAKER's responsibility to make sure a disabled person's meds are filled.
Objectively a care taker SHOULD NOT leave a disabled person of her degree to take a bath on her own.
She admitted to both! In writing!
Subjectively it can be suspected this was done on purpose given her prior behavior and her desire to move.
I know you already told her nurse, but please talk to the police/sheriff/adult protective services as well. Make sure they know as well. The nurse is not law enforcement and last thing you want is for your concerns to be considered hearsay.
How involved were you with her care? Who was her guardian and who was her AFC caregiver? She has a service coordinator. Do you know their name? Do you have their contact information? If you do call them.
Is your SIL A Good person or does she have issues. Could this have been a misguided attempt of kindness? Or is she just an ass, or seriously at her white end? Trying to offload a problem, or so very sad at seeing someone suffer?
So so sorry to ask, but it's on reddit..
I feel so very sad you and your family are freaking with this. Just want to make sure the wasn't trying to do something good, but ended up bad.
Seriously, my prayers are with you all.
I'm really sorry for your and your family's loss :((
This hit differently coz I was on keppra for a long time. One of the side effect is forgetfulness, so I'd forget to take my med regularly and id forget if I'd taken it or not. I've got to swallow the medecine in front of someone or clearly tell someone at home I've taken it so my brain will take it in (I also put a little dot on the family calendar). ANYWAY, Im a legal adult with full mental capacity and my parent worry so much already. I also just don't take baths. I've not locked the bathroom door since I had a seizure in the bathroom in 2012 or so (except when we have guests coz we dnt need those kinds of incidents lol). This might all be on the more cautious side of things but I've a friend who does similar stuff. It makes me so sad that this happened to your niece :((
Take the time to be sad, dnt worry too much a t the ex-sil. She'll get what she deserves, I 100% believe that.
One thing in just picking up rereading this, is the metabolic condition PKU? One of my family members has this and the only way your niece could have gotten this severely ill is if it wasn't picked up through the tests they do at the time of birth (which it should have done at her age), and her mom subsequently didn't adjust her diet accordingly...
No, it’s methylmalonic acidemia mut0. She was diagnosed when she was 4 months old because she was already developmentally delayed and had no muscle tone. I don’t know if they screen for it now, but they didn’t back then (she was born in 2001).
Insurance is usually good in these cases about refilling on time; seizure meds for these conditions are critical for life (can you tell I get to do this too? My sis has a rare brain deformity). Most pharmacies will even give you a partial fill if you’re short - mine would spot two-three days and rush the compounding. Heck, I even see keppra being offered in the seizure specific groups online frequently once someone outgrows a dose or changes meds, although I have concerns about that. I hate this for your family. Being a caretaker is a hard job, but it sounds like she had breaks and compassionate relief available. My heart is with your family. As my mother would say about the death, it’s a blessing and a sadness. It relives the concern about who will be coordinating and providing care when the parents pass or are unable. Neither she nor I condone murder, though. 🖤
Have you ever taken care of your niece for a long period of time?
You have no idea what it's like to take care of a disabled person 24/7. It's truly awful and whether it was an accident or not, your family will now live in peace.
Have YOU ever taken care of a disabled family member? Do you even understand how exhausting and horrible it is to have to waste all your resources on someone who won't ever say "i love you" or hug you or anything?
Epileptic here! I am very fortunate my seizures are controlled with meds (including keppra). I stockpile my meds any chance I get. It's unfathomable to me to run out and not refill
I’m so sorry your brother and your entire family are going through this. As an epileptic myself I know that taking a bath is the #1 thing I’m told NOT TO DO alone and my seizures are considered under control. Her mother would have been told that considering just how severe her case is and with the fact that hers aren’t. The fact that she willingly let her run out of her meds AND left her in a tub alone enrages me.
I hope your brother and you get some answers soon.
I'd bring it up with the doctor and request for someone to call (or call myself) whichever social services should be called for suspected abuse. Adult protective services?
Sounds fishy. Not a lot of ways to prove it, probably gets away. You could sweep it under the rug, find a way to accept it. Look through this sub, you can find many posts where people are taking care of a severely handicapped person and it consumes their life, or they felt like they've been robbed of decades after they pass.
You could cause a rift in the fam with unending drama, investigations, lawyers, and a lot of money. Would the motive be to take back their own life and not be relegated to a bedside nurse at any and all off time they have?
Apparently these people live in CA. In CA, there is a law that a person who was disabled before age 18 (or most likely younger) is entitled for services, including residential placement. This is free and there is by law no waiting list, although the state has 6 months to find a placement. So why is the poor niece not in a residential placement, instead of the two parents looking after her at home?
I worked with someone who was abusive to his now ex wife. He had them over the weekend and the 9 month old baby was left in the bath, while running unattended and drowned. I am 100% sure that it was premeditated. OP sounds like this was premeditated. Aswell. Sending prayers to your brother and family.
she fking drowned, what an awful way to go. “mercy killing” wtf are you talking about??
also calling a living, breathing persons a burden is such an evil mindset. i’m baffled this comment has positive upvotes jfc
My brother would have taken his daughter full time. Her mother wasn’t the only parent involved and it wasn’t her decision to make even if it were merited, which it wasn’t!
What a horrible comment. Mother made the choice to take her and still didn’t have her full time. With individuals such as this there is respite care that is offered. She doesn’t determine the quality of life someone else has because it’s not the same as yours. It was not her place to decide and I hope she goes to prison if they learn she did it
What have you given up to care for your disabled niece? I’m sure her mother was spent on energy caring for her and working to fund her care. nobody is perfect blaming her for the accidental death of her child is fucked up.
Its easy to place blame when you aren’t doing shit to help. People forget things especially when they’re stretched thin. How many people have you cared for full Time that weren’t able to care for themselves?
I agree with most people here this is very suspicious that fact she didn't refill the medication is a big red flag to me and leaving a server disability person alone in a bath is a huge red flag you should never leave that person alone for no reason
I am sorry your going through this but know we are here for you
This is so sad. I am so sorry this has happened to your family. I hope that if this was done on purpose, your sil gets what's coming to her. I am so sorry. 🫂
UpdateMe.
Call adult protective services. They can even investigate a death if she does pass away. Not refilling a medication resulting in a major/serious medical event and then possibly death is caretaker neglect.
Neglect at minimum. How awful. Sad for you.
Also if she knew she would be without meds for several days, she could have taken the daughter to the hospital that day, and would have filled it via the hospital pharmacy and sent you a bill.
I have a question ❓ How does she know she had a seizure if she wasn't in the bathroom with her? Did she see it and walk away? A seizure can be proven after death so I'm wondering.
Yes! This was my thoughts! How does she know if she came back and the daughter was under the water.
I’m assuming she sent the email after the daughter was brought back from the hospital. Maybe I read that wrong?
I would call this negligent homicide for sure…
As would most juries, I'd imagine.
Tbh, I'm questioning the mechanics of a 22 year old managing to slip under the water of the tub. Even assuming she's shorter than average, say 4'10, she should theoretically be tall enough that she would have to curl up in the bath, making it unlikely (though not impossible, admittedly) for her head to "just happen" to go under the surface of the water in a normal tub. I realize I'm making several assumptions here like the size of the tub, the height and overall body shape of the niece, and the position she was in while in the bath, but I believe it's something that should be investigated regardless.
I saw a dateline about this once and it’s basically impossible for an adult to drown in a bathtub. While seizing, however, may throw a wrinkle into it.
There was an old murder case, where some guy kept having his new brides die in the bath. Apparently he'd go out for his walk/alibi, mention the missus staying in and not to disturb to the desk, then sneak in and while she was in the tub grab her ankle and pull. Bang she'd go under and from the sudden surprise and shock they'd inhale enough water they'd actually die. I read it in an book about profiling by some old FBI guy. If I remember correctly the investigators figured it out by dicking around with the tubs and a swimmer. Problem with this today is so many people are ripping out tubs for showers and they are usually positioned such it seems that way of drowning would be tough to pull off now.
What is the problem exactly? Reads like you're lamenting that it's now harder to murder people 😅
"Those were the days"
BOY DAH WAY GLENN MILLUH PLAYED! SONGS THAT MADE THE HIT PARADE! GUUUYS LIKE US, WE HAD IT MADE...
Those were the days!
AND YOU KNEW WHO YOU WEEERE DEN, GIRLS WERE GIRLS AN' MEN WERE MEN... Mistuh, we could use a man like Herbert Hoovah *agaaaain*.
PEOPLE SEEMED TO BE CONTENT, FIFTY DOLLARS PAID DA RENT! FREAKS WERE IN A CIRCUS TENT, THOSE WERE THE DAYS!!!
Sounds like you yearn for those days, Frank? No, no I'm just saying, those were the days!
Yaay IASIP reference! First thing i thought of as well haha
Same, then I remembered the post thread and felt bad 😣
Baths are nice :(
Old giant clawfoot bathtubs used to be only for royalty. Then, for a while, they became *somewhat* standard. But for some stupid reason we then decided bathtubs should only ever be sized for children. So now most bathtubs are those tiny bath/shower combos that grown adults can never stretch out in. We went full circle and made baths for adults into a royalty thing again, and we're fools for letting this happen.
Honestly I fully agree with you. Whenever I’m apartment hunting, one of my dealbreakers is that I don’t want an apartment without a bathtub.
do people put their young ones in a shower right away? Bathtubs are not just for adults. I don't get those who don't want one.
I mean.... 😁
Had a friend actually die in college by having a seizure in the shower. He fell on top of the drain, and the 4” curb of the shower was enough water to drown him. Crazy, but unfortunately probably not as rare as you’d think.
This actually sounds plausible though. Having a seizure in the shower is my greatest fear (aside from while driving). It's a bad way to go, and uncomfortably common in the grand scheme of things. If you don't drown like your poor friend, you run the risk of bleeding out from potential head wounds, broken vertebrae, etc. I have actually HAD a seizure while in the tub. It's a two person double oval, and was relatively filled all the way. I got plenty of injuries from hitting all of the tub in my way, but it would have been surprisingly difficult to actually drown because of the slope and width. I think they anticipate people doing some ill-advised napping because even curled all the way onto my side with no physical control, my face was smashing into the tub, and nowhere near water. I think it would have been ever harder to slip under in a standard tub, and yes, the thought crossed my mind when it happened that I was going to drown, but it became obvious pretty fast I wouldn't.
That’s my thinking also. Big Tub wouldn’t wanna get a rep for people falling asleep and dying. They’re angled in a way that you can’t submerge yourself without trying to do so. I’m so sorry, but I think OP is right…
Unfortunately I agree. I would never want to believe the worst in someone like that, but combined with stopping the Keppra... it's incredibly, *incredibly* hard not to.
Stopping the keppra was key so that it would make sense to everyone else.
Hoping you never have a seizure in the shower but something to note if you ever renovate your bathroom. The reason I think it was so easy for him to plug up the drain was that it was likely center of the shower pan. The chances of a pretty big guy, covering that completely and stopping the water is high. But if you have the drain set to the side or do a trench drain, it would be far more difficult to block. Even a shower tub would have probably not been an issue. You would think the high walls would make it more likely, but the drain is offset to one side out of the way.
Yeah, that's exactly what I have too, a center drain pan. I usually sit, honestly. Not that I'd admit that IRL.
Ooh, actually I just realized a cheaper solution. I actually redid my bathroom recently and I got a custom teak wood slotted mat insert for my shower. If you were to fall in the shower with that it would be literally impossible to block the drain, because it’s now 3” below your walking surface. And it looks awesome! I feel like I’m showering at a spa everyday. Look into it, might be a great way to eliminate at least one danger.
I’ve recently learned about those teak wood mats! Where did you order yours?
Hey, it's what I did when I quit drinking. I didn't have a bad case of delerium tremens, but for several days I had sudden, intense dizzy spells. I sat while I showered and crawled going up or down the stairs.
I have insulinomas which cause me to have gran mal seizures. Unfortunately, I do not get an aura that some get. 1/10 I get tunnel vision then a seizure and 9/10 seizures with no warning. I noticed the tunnel vision and got almost out of the tub, but made enough noise my boyfriend found me and got me safe as I was having a full gran mal/clonic tonic seizure. It would have been much worse if he was not there. I am currently waiting to see my endocrinologists/oncologist to discuss another surgery. I had subtotal pancreatotomy to remove the insulinomas and over active part of my pancreas. Unfortunately, the seizures are back and low low blood sugars, so probably another surgery for me. I do not take a shower or bath if I am home alone. So even though I am an adult my seizure risks are high. I am blessed with loving family that don't mind watching TV in the master bedroom while I take a shower in the master bathroom.
Man, I am so sorry. This actually made me cry to read, but so happy when I got to the end. I'm glad you have that, that is so important. I hope that if you do have to have surgery it is your last, or at least a long long break between. That's stressful. I do get warning 50/50 of the time give or take. I don't have a high risk, but I've had too many result in asinine injuries because I tried to get somewhere "better" in the moment. I'm not sure staying was... Smarter... But... It is what it is.
Thank you so much for your kind words! I am truly blessed with my family's support. I cannot imagine trying to do all of this without them. I had my surgery 15 years ago and it was intense. I will gladly do it again, because seizures suck! I hate the sense of confusion and memory loss. You know the feeling of not being in control of your own body is terrifying! I am so sorry that you have to try and choose in a moment how to protect yourself, especially since our brains are fighting us in the moment. I hope that your injuries are not severe. I totally understand the *"better"* idea. I call it my *lizard brain thinking*, since fight or flight originates in our amygdala. You are doing your absolute best in the moment and that is all anyone can ask of themselves! Sending you positive thoughts and virtual hugs if you want them friend 🧡
My daughter is epileptic and her neurologist said rule number one for epileptics never showed bathe or swim alone! Ever!!
I mentioned this to another commenter, but if you have a shower you should look into teak shower mats. I got one custom fit for my shower and it elevates the surface to about 3” above the drain. If she would ever go unfortunately have an episode in the shower, it would at least keep her body off the drain. It’s not much, but may eliminate one worry in your life.
That is an excellent suggestion thank you!!
I had a pal in uni who was epileptic. He had a seizure in a bath tub as a teenager and he broke his back and was in recovery for months. Since then he only took cold showers, which he said were fine. It was apparently the relaxation from the hot water which triggered the seizure. He also almost only ever had seizures at night when sleeping and he'd wake up with a swollen tongue and a terrible headache. He said everybody's different in that regard.
My daughters almost always happen at night as well it’s very strange
Mine are almost always during sleep.
My father (29) had a seizure early one morning behind a store, fell over a short railing, face first in dirt suffocated and died.
I'm so sorry 😥
There is a play about this story called The Drowning Girls. The murderer George Joseph Smith
if it's the same case I recall, they proved in court that it was possible to easily drown a person without bruising them- as you'd do by holding them down- by having a WPC (woman police constable, an actual title back then) go into a bathtub in court and had someone else pull her up by the ankles and it went about as well as you'd expect. Which is to say, she nearly drowned and that guy was convicted.
I think you're referring to Drew Peterson. He had 4 wives die in suspicious circumstances. Lifetime made a movie about it but I can't remember what it is called. Edit: He was also a police officer which is probably why he was able to get away with it for so long.
They are talking about George Joseph Smith, an English killer known as the Bride in the Bath Murderer. He married women and killed them on the honeymoon to get their money. It is a significant case in forensic pathology investigated by the famous pathologists Bernard Spilsbury and detective inspector Aurthur Neil of the Metropolitan Police. Smith was caught and convicted in 1915 and hanged.
Also I think bathtubs back then were sizes differently…some hotel rooms now I swear I walk in and the so shallow that they are not even up half way to my knee and I am extremely short… If OP’s niece is handicapped I am wondering if mom had any improvements/aides … or if this was a standard bath tub, if niece is around 2 or 3 mentally… why did mom leave her… would any person leave a 2 or 3 year old in a bathtub…. The mom should be in jail right now…
There was a Forensic Files episode like this too. Guy held his wife under to drown, then left for a bit so he'd have an alibi then "discovered" her when he returned and tried to say it was an accident
Not trying to be an ass but you are wrong. My mother died this way when I was 10. I spent the night with my grandparents and had to stop by on the way to school the next morning. I couldn’t get my mother to answer behind the locked bathroom door. Told my grandfather and followed him in while he busted down the door. I saw my mother completely submerged just before he pulled her out to do CPR. She was 32 and in perfect health. She never breathed for herself again and they finally made the decision to turn off life support. 40 years ago and I still remember every minute like it happened yesterday. Sometimes it just happens.
I’m so sorry you had to see that 💔
I read about a woman who drowned in her bathtub once, but she was also heavily under the influence of drugs. And then you have Drew Peterson, whose third wife "drowned" in a dry bathtub (when he had a neighbor find her, there was no water in the tub anymore). He was eventually convicted of her murder.
I had a friend who drowned in the bath. She was very petite, and she had also been drinking and passed out. So yeah, complicating factors, but it definitely is possible.
A friend's dad died in a similar way when I was about 11. He'd been beat up by some people outside a pub once and started suffering from seizures, a year or less maybe later after drinking, he had a seizure in the bath and drowned. He was maybe about 5'7.
Whitney Houston died drowning in her hotel bathtub after passing out from taking drugs.. If the daughter had a seizure it’s very possible she could’ve slipped into the water and not been able to help herself.
It's very easy to drown a weak disabled adult. Just hold their ankles up high. They won't have the core strength to lift their head out of the water.
I meant without being murdered.
Oh yeah, then you're correct.
I do know a lady that died by drowning in a tub, but she had fallen in head first from outside the tub because she was very intoxicated
Didn’t Whitney Houston drown in the bath?
can confirm an adult can pass away in a bath if they’re seizing - that is exactly how my father died at 38 years old. he didn’t take his epilepsy medication, had a bath, seized during it, and died. if a 38 year old can die this way, it would be entirely possible for a 22 year old with the mental capacity of a 2-3 year old to die the same way.
When you’re “very physically weak and spastic” it is quite easy to drown in a tub unattended. ETA: on top of her mental capacity, cognitive abilities and “cumulative brain damage”.
Maybe. But I am 5’1” and I can easily slide so my face is underwater
Same, I'm 5'0" and can very easily fully lay down in a tub, a full tub I'd probably be able to drown in if i were to have a seizure.
Really depends on a lot of things. Disabilities hit differently, my sister had a chromosomal disorder, and relied on a feeding tube for nourishment. She may have been 4', and was only like 60 lbs at 26 when she passed. Size wise she was around the size of an 8 year old. She would have been short enough. But.. not every disability affects growth, with it affecting her nutrients it's possible. I do hope op sees this comment though just in case. Because it is very true if she is of somewhat average height. It honestly sounds like the mom would have been willing to hold her under, of at the very least leave the room until things happen. An investigation definitely needs to happen.
Tbh the medical advice for people who have seizures is to not have baths on their own bc of drowning risk, no matter the size of the individual. Why she was having a bath unsupervised when she had just been diagnosed with new onset seizures is another matter entirely, SIL should not have left her alone if she knew she was bathing/advised a shower instead.
If she was having a seizure, she can’t control her movement.
If she had a seizure she could easily end up under the water
I'm 5'1" and could definitely slip under the water in my tub if I bend my knees just a bit when laying down. It's a standard size tub, would be even easier in a nice clawfoot tub...
There’s something called SUDEP - sudden unexpected death in epilepsy - which often involves drowning, including in the bath. So totally possible
SUDEP is actually for those cases that *don't* involve drowning (or other "generally accepted" epilepsy fatalities, like smacking one's head). Hence, the term "unexpected."
I preface this by saying I read too many true crime books, but there is a way to kill a person in a tub full of water and I’m not writing how for obvious reasons. It changes things to first degree murder.
You can't just say you know something creepy and interesting, then walk away without sharing it! Just type it out in spoiler text, if that'll help ease your conscience
Look up George Joseph Smith bathtub murderer on Wikipedia.
Oh for god's sake! The lead detective nearly killed a random woman in the bath by trying to figure out how to kill someone in the bath! And that's how he solved the case! Even Holmes never stooped *that* low
To be sure, the detective and the test subject never expected how easily doing that would cause a shock response.
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"*She* ran out" like she was the one who didn't refill her script and go pick it up!
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If she ran out during the week shouldn’t the brother have been the one to refill it? Not dismissing the mom as she sounds like a super shitty human but the niece is with her father (the brother) during the week
…I was wondering the same thing.
Op commented this a bit further down : You’re not - I had it backwards, it was that way when she was still in school but once she wasn’t going anymore, they swapped so he has her on weekends and she’s with her mom M-F and my brother has her on weekends. Good catch and sorry for the confusion!
It does say the mother has/had legal guardianship, so I'm wondering if she's the only one who would be able to pick it up?
If the drug isn't a narcotic, I don't think most pharmacies care, at least in this country. Give the name and birthday and you're golden. I couldn't pick up my kids insulin because we were home with covid, a coworker of mine picked it up for me. (Thank you Fred! Literal lifesaver.) They didn't even ask for his name or ID.
You can even pick up a narcotic for someone else. You just give your ID and relation to the patient, in the US.
Bingo. I live in the U.S. and I pick up meds for family members all the time. I've even picked up narcotics without having to show an ID. All you need is the name and birth date of the person in most instances.
For real. I'm on Keppra for seizures myself, and I have a back up dose at work, in my purse, at my parents, just in case I stay late somewhere. Epilepsy for 20 years, and the rare missed doses of medication have led to hospital trips. I refill a week before I run out.
Right?! The wording of that whole email, as though she bears no responsibility and the only thing she did was find her and try to save her. As though K let herself run out of the meds and decided to take a bath anyway. That woman is a sociopath. Safeguarding lead? Thank you!! I didn’t even know there is such a thing so that’s really helpful.
Keppra - like most epilepsy meds - lowers the threshold for a seizure when it is stopped without lowering the dose slowly. It is extremely important not to miss it, and you're not even meant to get different brands of the same drug because the absorption rate might be different enough to trigger a seizure. When an acquaintance missed a dose, they would be guaranteed to have a seizure within 24 hours, even though they didn't have seizures more than once every few weeks to months, before the meds. This is risk is heavily emphasized by doctors and pharmacists when starting such meds. The guardian knew full well that they could guarantee a seizure by stopping the meds cold turkey.
I literally died from stopping Keppra suddenly. I had multiple seizures back to back and went into hypoxia. Heart stopped, got hit with the electric paddles and my heart restarted and I started breathing again. It's one medication you should NOT fuck around with.
Not to mention if K truly has the mental and physical limitations that make her roughly a 2-3 year old, you don’t leave a 2-3 year old alone in the bath either!!! Though, I’m curious on who is in charge of her meds; if she ran out last week was it your brothers responsibility to have refilled it? Or is the SIL responsible for all her meds? I think that piece is important. Regardless, whichever parent notices a med out should have it filled.
My brother said the problem was her insurance wouldn’t fill the prescription until Monday, and then it takes the compounding pharmacy a day or two to fill it in liquid form (since it’s given through her g-tube). So I’ll give SIL some leeway for not having it - but *never* for leaving her in the bathtub alone, especially knowing she didn’t have it.
Do you think she legit left her alone and didn't just drown her herself?
Exactly. The BIL- didn’t have it altogether either.
I must be missing something. Isn’t K with her dad on weekdays and her mom only on weekends?
You’re not - I had it backwards, it was that way when she was still in school but once she wasn’t going anymore, they swapped so he has her on weekends and she’s with her mom M-F and my brother has her on weekends. Good catch and sorry for the confusion!
Ah that makes so much more sense now. And also goes to motive. She suddenly went from having 5 days a week to 2, and that’s hard… and she deals with hard things in what seem like really wrong ways. So sorry for your loss. Even if K pulls through, nothing will ever be the same after this. My love to you and yours.
Not to mention if K truly has the mental and physical limitations that make her roughly a 2-3 year old, you don’t leave a 2-3 year old alone in the bath either!!! Though, I’m curious on who is in charge of her meds; if she ran out last week was it your brothers responsibility to have refilled it? Or is the SIL responsible for all her meds? I think that piece is important. Regardless, whichever parent notices a med out should have it filled.
I’d call a police detective. This sounds actionable
it sounds like your SIL purposely didn't refill the meds because there'd be "no point", she probably had already decided to do this when she ran out.
I'd honestly say something to the doctors (if she is still at ICU) or police. The mother shouldn't be left alone with her in the hospital room. Tell them your suspicions and what she did to the dog. If she passes on (you say murdered? Did she die or is she in ICU?), then they should do an autopsy then too. I'm so sorry for her dad and you all. Heartbreaking.
She’s in the ICU sedated on a ventilator, but it sounds like they don’t think there’re much hope. I know I used “murdered” as though she’s already passed and probably shouldn’t have worded it that way, but she’s only alive because of the life support. Sorry for the confusion! My brother said they’re mostly keeping his ex out of the ICU already, so I wonder if that’s protocol or if they’re also side-eyeing her.
I would definitely say something to the doctors when neither your brother nor SIL are close to hear. Include the bit about the dog.
It is better to say something. So that they do the protocols regardless and an autopsy/ police are called.
You said she’s the guardian and bc it happened on her watch, I’m betting adult protective services was called. Either way, please say something to the doctors there and the police. Be the advocate for your niece. ETA you should also give a call to adult protective services.
Definitely say something to the doctors/nurses. Show the email she sent out too if you want. They might need to know to keep her safe in there and keep your SIL away from her if she really did try to murder her... Idk if you should go straight to the police too, but I'd at least talk to someone at the hospital about it possibly being attempted murder...
The trend of suffocating the dog… and now the daughter drowning. Both died from being deprived of air… that’s a pattern in the making right there.
And now she's off to live with her other daughter and granddaughter. Yikes!
TBH, if you know where she's at I would call and report this both to the local police and the hospital social worker. At least somebody with some authority and possibly responsibility for looking into things further will know that there are suspicions.
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At the very least it's criminally negligent. At the worst, murder. I also suspect murder. She likely deliberately withheld meds to cause something like this or get an opportunity to make it look like an accident.
Not sure if they’ll be able to prosecute this for murder unless they can prove intent somehow. Seems like a case where a good defense attorney could convince a jury that there’s reasonable doubt. Hopefully she’ll slip up and they’ll nail her.
Most likely what will happen is she'll go down for negligent homicide or reckless manslaughter, medical neglect, and other charges, and still spend many years in prison. Ultimately, we don't KNOW she murdered her, but at least she won't fully escape justice. Her life's a bout to be over; she's about to be a felon and she won't be getting out for quite a while.
This is terrifying. If your brother isn’t in the mental state to talk with people, please bring this up to the hospital and the local police department. These kinds of deaths are often written off as accidental unless someone starts making some noise.
If it's the genetic disorder I'm thinking of, PKU, it should have been caught before the severe brain damage set in. Babies are usually screened for it in the US. If it was PKU, did SIL fail to follow the dietary guidelines?
It’s not - it’s methylmalonic acidemia mut0 and she wasn’t diagnosed until she was 4 months old. It’s pretty rare and when she was born the oldest a kid had lived to with it was 15, so she’s beaten some odds! She gets a special formula, but who knows what my SIL was doing!
I'm so sorry for your loss. Wow, sounds like she did beat the odds.
I have a form of methylmalonic acidemia—reading this hurts my heart so much. It's a tough disease and I wouldn't have known her, but she was part of my community. The face that your niece persevered for so long only to die because of her own mother is absolutely horrifying. Sending my best wishes to your family, and I'll keep her in my thoughts. I hope her mother gets what she deserves. I have no words.
Thanks for this comment. I thought the same but didn't know how to phrase it.
I doubt you’re the only one thinking this.
I'm so sorry for your family. Poor K, I hope she's not in pain at least. I want to say I hear you and I feel for you. Hubby and I have always suspected that my dad (now dead himself) killed his partner through deliberate neglect (she had dementia). I couldn't ever prove it, but we knew. SO MANY INSTANCES.... even now it makes me so angry. It ate at me for years how he treated her, and her funeral was the day I went no contact with him for good. The last time I saw him was on his death bed in hospital, but he was pretty much already gone by then and only the machines were keeping him breathing. Maybe this sounds awful, but it felt good to be asked by the doctor if I wanted them to switch the ventilator off. I said yes without even thinking. It felt like justice of sorts for what he did to his partner. You'll likely never get full closure on this for K, so I hope at least you all get grief therapy when the time comes.
Call social services yourself as well. Don’t just rely on the hospital. I used to work in adult protective services and the more reports, the better. ETA..you can make it an anonymous report but the law should protect your identity. They won’t tell her you called.
This def sounds sus ... But as a pain chronic it happens way too often for me that my meds are out of stock. There's a chance that's what happened. But it's not up to you or me to do police work. What IS up to us as civilians is telling the authorities when something looks kinda wrong - and this is definitely an accident that needs to be looked further into!!! Tell the staff at the hospital about these things and ask them if they report it or if you have to. Let them have your info to pass on to the authorities. If this WAS just a horrible accident, your ex-SIL too have an interest in having this looked at instead of it hanging over her as an unspoken accusation for decades to come. And if she's guilty and pissed about you speaking up, who cares?
I used to work at a pharmacy up until recently. A few months ago we had some issues getting a specific strength of Keppra in stock, not because it wasn't available, but because it was just too expensive for the company. We'd hit the allowed allotment for that month, and no one had informed us. That... really sucked.
If those meds are very expensive, maybe to "have run put of them" means they could not afford to buy new ones. In those shitty countries that leave sick people all alone or on the mercy of relatives, do get your meds can be a problem.
If they are in the US, I’m sure OP’s niece gets state insurance and they will fill and cannot even enforce a copay if she doesn’t have it to pay. They still have to give them the meds.
I heard from too many people going bancrupt because of their daily insulin to believe that getting meds is no problem, for noone.
Unpopular opinion but murder aside if she did kill her she deserves hell but fuck I’d hate to be like that all my life
To clarify. K is your brother & ex-SILs *daughter*, correct? So you think she attempted to kill her own daughter? Is that right?
Yes
OP said K had the mentality of a 2-3y old and her mother left to the story to get more meds, because K "ran out of Keppra", like wtf, this was the mothers responsibility, not K's? So she left her in the bathtub, while she went to the store. Would you also leave your 2-3y old in a bathtub while leaving the house? And it's also weird, as another commenter said, how big the bathtub or K was to be able to drown.
I didn't say anything about fault. I simply asked for clarification about the relationships because OP kept calling her the "SIL" and "guardian" instead of calling her K's mother.
It never says her mother went to the store? She was probably just in another room. And given the history with the dog and the additional details OP shared about their circumstances, she might've heard the seizure and stood there and watched until it was too late.
You better hope youre right cause youre gonna put your Brother through a lot.
If it’s “too soon to fill” based on ins, that means the patient should have some left. Ins puts those blocks in so patients don’t fill too early, they don’t care if you fill late. So unless they changed her dose, she was giving the medication wrong, she lost some, etc. she should have had enough to get through the 29th at the very least. And compounding the drug doesn’t take days, it takes an hour at most to actually do it, but it depends on the actual pharmacies schedule (I make sure to give myself 4 days for everything incase I have a ton of stuff to do. Also some meds only are good for 35 days once compounded, so we have to factor that in to when we compound them, based on when patient last picked them up. -sincerely a compounding pharmacy technician
Wow. It seems like a lot of people are quick to jump to conclusions and convict the SIL. Everything that I’ve read so far is circumstantial. From an investigative standpoint, there’s not enough to determine that this was intentional. OP I would suggest that you contact the police who can investigate this. Let them handle it. Should the niece have been left alone in the bath? I don’t know, that may be questionable depending on circumstances and ability. Does her mother typically remain in the bathroom when she bathes? Does the mother bathe her? Is your niece capable of bathing herself? Does the father bathe her, or remain in the bathroom when she is in his care? Was there a specific reason why she did not get her medication? Was it pharmacy issues, insurance holds, or was a parent unable or unwilling to pick it up? Who was responsible for that? How long has your niece had seizures, and how often did they occur? The email about your niece may seem disturbing, but it could also be taken out of context. People who are dealing with stress, anxiety, grief, or fear don’t always express themselves the way other people think they should. The email reads very matter-of-fact to me. Was the SIL in shock when she wrote it? Imagine finding your child unconscious and not responsive. How would you react? OP what does your brother say about all of this? Does he suspect foul play? How’s his relationship with the SIL? How’s your relationship with the SIL? I would highly suggest that until you have absolute proof that your SIL intended to intentionally inflict injury or death on your niece, don’t allow your suspicions to influence your judgment or actions towards others. I think I read above that the mom was being kept away from her daughter. Is that because the police or hospital thought she was involved? Is that because the doctor is allowing consideration to your suspicions? Imagine if that was your child and others wrongly assumed that you were guilty. How would you feel? How would you feel being deprived of possibly spending the last moments with your child?
I would find it hard to set suspicions aside knowing that she intentionally suffocated a dog with a plastic bag.
> What is that called? My wife has OTCD or Gelsinger's disease. Just diagnosed 18 months ago at 38. Has avoided meat all of her life. Her ammonia levels will build and build until first she's intoxicated and crazy, then comatose. Has never suffered permanent damage (that we know of) but if she starts acting child like and silly I know her ammonia is really high. She's in a gene therapy clinical trial for it.
My late ex husband died of liver failure. Due to his illness he suffered from hepatic encephalopathy. He was already a terrible person but man when his ammonia levels spiked he was insane. Shit is no joke.
Methylmalonic acidemia mut0! She was diagnosed at 4 months old because she had no muscle tone and wasn’t holding her head up yet. It sounds like the same kind of thing, just to different degrees! I know my brother has mentioned her ammonia levels in the past. Best wishes that the therapy works!!
This case aside, I'm always curious about how caretakers deal with darker thoughts about their special needs dependents.
I would absolutely tell him. Him, and the police.
How involved were you with her care? Who was her guardian and who was her AFC caregiver? She has a service coordinator. Do you know their name? Do you have their contact information? If you do call them.
I think your accusation is a stretch. You said the pharmacy refused to refill the meds, that's not your SIL's fault. You said K only started the meds 1 month ago after her first seizure. Your SIL may have been giving her baths for 22 years with no issue and did not foresee it becoming a problem. Your SIL also called 911 immediately. If her intentions were to kill her, why not wait to make sure she was dead? I think you are reaching and it is entirely possible you're accusing an innocent distraught mother of attempted murder.
My daughter has been on keppra for years for seizures. Her last seizure was 7 years ago, so the keppra is working. And the child has not taken a bath without me nearby her entire life. Now that she's more modest, I sit in my chair right outside the bathroom, bit I can hear her in there. Just sayin.
If your brother was K main career why did she not have her meds?...
I wasn’t up to date - when she “graduated” from school they swapped so my brother has her on the weekends and my ex-SIL has her during the week. My ex-SIL has legal guardianship, so she’s the one with the authority to handle K’s medical care.
Why couldn’t your brother get the meds
Should he not have noticed that her meds where running low, pretty sure it not a week by week prescription
It is very likely this was an accident. Classic case of Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Don't jump into doing something dramatic like calling police/protective services that could result in a grieving mother going to jail. Once you call the police it is out of your control. We have a horrible criminal justice system that gives insane punishments all the time. Think of it this way: how sure are you this was not just an accident? Subtract that from 100% and ask yourself if you are ok with her going to jail. Fair enough if the answer is yes, because if it was an accident she clearly should have refilled the meds. But don't jump into this without giving serious thought to "Is there a chance I am wrong about her wanting her daughter dead?"
Even if an autopsy can't prove murder/foul play, your SIL's email is enough to prove admitted negligence. Objectively it is a CARE TAKER's responsibility to make sure a disabled person's meds are filled. Objectively a care taker SHOULD NOT leave a disabled person of her degree to take a bath on her own. She admitted to both! In writing! Subjectively it can be suspected this was done on purpose given her prior behavior and her desire to move.
As much as she definitely is at fault, I think the loss of her daughter and calling her a murderer at this time is a little wild.
Please keep us updated on how you and your brother are doing
I know you already told her nurse, but please talk to the police/sheriff/adult protective services as well. Make sure they know as well. The nurse is not law enforcement and last thing you want is for your concerns to be considered hearsay.
To clarify. K is your brother & ex-SILs *daughter*, correct? So you think she attempted to kill her own daughter? Is that right?
I'm sorry, where is the info about the dog? What dog? What did SIL do to it?
Second half of second paragraph in original post (after the edit, I mean)
Oh wow. Thank you for pinpointing it for me!
How involved were you with her care? Who was her guardian and who was her AFC caregiver? She has a service coordinator. Do you know their name? Do you have their contact information? If you do call them.
Usually these situations get investigated. That’s fucking cruel of what your sil did to that dog. I’d be highly suspicious.
Is your SIL A Good person or does she have issues. Could this have been a misguided attempt of kindness? Or is she just an ass, or seriously at her white end? Trying to offload a problem, or so very sad at seeing someone suffer? So so sorry to ask, but it's on reddit.. I feel so very sad you and your family are freaking with this. Just want to make sure the wasn't trying to do something good, but ended up bad. Seriously, my prayers are with you all.
I think suffocating a dog with a plastic bag answers that question.
I'm really sorry for your and your family's loss :(( This hit differently coz I was on keppra for a long time. One of the side effect is forgetfulness, so I'd forget to take my med regularly and id forget if I'd taken it or not. I've got to swallow the medecine in front of someone or clearly tell someone at home I've taken it so my brain will take it in (I also put a little dot on the family calendar). ANYWAY, Im a legal adult with full mental capacity and my parent worry so much already. I also just don't take baths. I've not locked the bathroom door since I had a seizure in the bathroom in 2012 or so (except when we have guests coz we dnt need those kinds of incidents lol). This might all be on the more cautious side of things but I've a friend who does similar stuff. It makes me so sad that this happened to your niece :(( Take the time to be sad, dnt worry too much a t the ex-sil. She'll get what she deserves, I 100% believe that.
One thing in just picking up rereading this, is the metabolic condition PKU? One of my family members has this and the only way your niece could have gotten this severely ill is if it wasn't picked up through the tests they do at the time of birth (which it should have done at her age), and her mom subsequently didn't adjust her diet accordingly...
No, it’s methylmalonic acidemia mut0. She was diagnosed when she was 4 months old because she was already developmentally delayed and had no muscle tone. I don’t know if they screen for it now, but they didn’t back then (she was born in 2001).
Insurance is usually good in these cases about refilling on time; seizure meds for these conditions are critical for life (can you tell I get to do this too? My sis has a rare brain deformity). Most pharmacies will even give you a partial fill if you’re short - mine would spot two-three days and rush the compounding. Heck, I even see keppra being offered in the seizure specific groups online frequently once someone outgrows a dose or changes meds, although I have concerns about that. I hate this for your family. Being a caretaker is a hard job, but it sounds like she had breaks and compassionate relief available. My heart is with your family. As my mother would say about the death, it’s a blessing and a sadness. It relives the concern about who will be coordinating and providing care when the parents pass or are unable. Neither she nor I condone murder, though. 🖤
Have you ever taken care of your niece for a long period of time? You have no idea what it's like to take care of a disabled person 24/7. It's truly awful and whether it was an accident or not, your family will now live in peace.
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Have YOU ever taken care of a disabled family member? Do you even understand how exhausting and horrible it is to have to waste all your resources on someone who won't ever say "i love you" or hug you or anything?
Epileptic here! I am very fortunate my seizures are controlled with meds (including keppra). I stockpile my meds any chance I get. It's unfathomable to me to run out and not refill
I’m so sorry your brother and your entire family are going through this. As an epileptic myself I know that taking a bath is the #1 thing I’m told NOT TO DO alone and my seizures are considered under control. Her mother would have been told that considering just how severe her case is and with the fact that hers aren’t. The fact that she willingly let her run out of her meds AND left her in a tub alone enrages me. I hope your brother and you get some answers soon.
I'd bring it up with the doctor and request for someone to call (or call myself) whichever social services should be called for suspected abuse. Adult protective services?
My 6 month old has a genetic metabolic disorder too he’s not able to break down protein, this makes me so sad.
Sounds fishy. Not a lot of ways to prove it, probably gets away. You could sweep it under the rug, find a way to accept it. Look through this sub, you can find many posts where people are taking care of a severely handicapped person and it consumes their life, or they felt like they've been robbed of decades after they pass. You could cause a rift in the fam with unending drama, investigations, lawyers, and a lot of money. Would the motive be to take back their own life and not be relegated to a bedside nurse at any and all off time they have?
I’m so sorry for you and your family. Does your niece have PKU? I have a daughter that has it, so I was just curious.
Hers is methylmalonic acidemia mut0. A bunch of people asked about PKU too, I guess it’s more common than I thought!
Apparently these people live in CA. In CA, there is a law that a person who was disabled before age 18 (or most likely younger) is entitled for services, including residential placement. This is free and there is by law no waiting list, although the state has 6 months to find a placement. So why is the poor niece not in a residential placement, instead of the two parents looking after her at home?
Oh I’m so heartbroken for your brother and your family.
How do you know that the dog was suffocated with a plastic bag? Were you present when it happened or did you hear the information from someone else?
I worked with someone who was abusive to his now ex wife. He had them over the weekend and the 9 month old baby was left in the bath, while running unattended and drowned. I am 100% sure that it was premeditated. OP sounds like this was premeditated. Aswell. Sending prayers to your brother and family.
You know what, what a massive burden to your SIL, sounds like a mercy killing. Why tell anyone? What a horrible life for mother and child
she fking drowned, what an awful way to go. “mercy killing” wtf are you talking about?? also calling a living, breathing persons a burden is such an evil mindset. i’m baffled this comment has positive upvotes jfc
My brother would have taken his daughter full time. Her mother wasn’t the only parent involved and it wasn’t her decision to make even if it were merited, which it wasn’t!
What a horrible comment. Mother made the choice to take her and still didn’t have her full time. With individuals such as this there is respite care that is offered. She doesn’t determine the quality of life someone else has because it’s not the same as yours. It was not her place to decide and I hope she goes to prison if they learn she did it
What have you given up to care for your disabled niece? I’m sure her mother was spent on energy caring for her and working to fund her care. nobody is perfect blaming her for the accidental death of her child is fucked up.
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Its easy to place blame when you aren’t doing shit to help. People forget things especially when they’re stretched thin. How many people have you cared for full Time that weren’t able to care for themselves?
That is so heartbreaking. I'm so sorry y'all are going thru this
So sorry your family is going through this. Definitely fishy though.
I agree with most people here this is very suspicious that fact she didn't refill the medication is a big red flag to me and leaving a server disability person alone in a bath is a huge red flag you should never leave that person alone for no reason I am sorry your going through this but know we are here for you
That email reeks of an attempt to create an alibi.
Make sure to contact APS
My heart is breaking for yall. At the very least it sounds like negligent homicide. I hope they do a full investigation
This is so sad. I am so sorry this has happened to your family. I hope that if this was done on purpose, your sil gets what's coming to her. I am so sorry. 🫂 UpdateMe.
I'd definitely say something to your brother, at least.