There’s literally no difference between this guy and the “chad” guy - he presents himself as a “nicer” guy but underlies the same level of dehumanisation of women. Not to mention, if he did get the same girl and she’d raise a concern about the relationship, he would be the first one to point out how grateful she should be since he “doesn’t hit her”.
He has set the bar for men as low by comparing horrible men to himself and not realising he’s one of them as well.
Ive had my own siblings try to downplay my exps of abuse growin up bcuz i was the only one who nvr got hit (nvr needed to, the threat was enuf for me); i just got abused with words endlessly and told my feelings and emotions and anythin else dont matter, esp moreso when theyre not in line with how others were experiencin things... And treated as if i shud be perfect bcuz i was the "good kid" by virtue of tryin so hard to not get hit my ownself
This is a good point how absolutely awful this is and why there needs to be more awareness of other flavors of abuse that are extremely damaging. Living in a pressure cooker absolutely sucks and it can cause both mental and physical damage to your health.
I think he should have read your reply. I think you essentially summed up the entire issue.
If we reversed the argument and said he had to "accept" a girl he didn't find particularly physically attractive or even worse if he found her unattractive but she did not physically or verbally abuse him, he would have to accept and be with her, I wonder if his perspective would change on what the bar is.
That's when they fall back on evopsych pseudoscience about how men are evolved to be attracted to youth and beauty but women are only allowed to be attracted to nice guy providers 🙄
It is socially acceptable for men to be attracted to youth and beauty, but if a woman is attracted to wealth or a man for his ability to provide, shes a "gold-digger".
And if a woman is attracted to a man with no money she's judged for that too: either "emasculating" him if she's the breadwinner or "choosing the wrong guy" if she's equally broke. There's no way for women to act that's good enough for men like that, and that's by design.
Lesbians/wlw aren't even considered in their worldview of course.
It's not acceptable for women to be attracted to anything, because the moment women have preferences and a choice, she is resented.
The cheerleader in this example may be attracted to her husband's looks. If I go by Chad - how her husband is described - her husband is probably tall and non obese. The girl might be attracted to that, like that niceguy is attracted to the blonde and blue eyed cheerleader.
It's always funny to me because incel-minded guys are always after young physically attractive women and will justify to death that they have a preference. This alone is fine - but the women in turn might have a preference too. And if the young attractive woman has a preference for young attractive men - that's her preference, she is allowed to have one.
"Gold digging" is a concept that incels are totally fine with- it's a transaction beauty + youth vs money. When they are complaining about gold digging they never do because of the concept, they do because they are broke ass losers who have no money so they can't buy themselves a young and conventionally good looking trophy wife.
They think women are their personal prostitutes/sex slaves, and thus the women are not allowed to have a preferance because then it wouldn't be 'professional', because if those women have a preferance for better and the freedom to enact it, then the women would never go for these incel losers. And these incels know what they are, they know they'd never be picked, not willingly at least. Thus they want sex slaves instead, who have no say, no rights, no nothing.
Yes, that's it right there. Good old evopsych. It almost sounds, sometimes, as though it was written specifically to uphold mens desires and make give their sick fantasies a 'sciencetific' flavour.
I'm pretty sure the only difference between a "nice guy" and a Chad is that the nice guy happens to be ugly. According to incel lore, both character archetypes seem to share the same views about women and have the same level of entitlement.
Great perspective, now that I think about it, you are 100% correct, this is the first time I heard this view. The nice guy is not actually nice, he presents himself as one to try to obligate women to return their affections or give them sex because they feel "indebted" to them by their behaviors and actions. They prob would be Chads if they can, but they understand their looks limitation and resort to being the nice guy. Super eye opening.
On the Incel and Dating subs (which often seem to be one in the same) they constantly post about how they are entitled to a woman simply because shes their “looksmatch”. Men on that sub are always crying about how they don’t understand how a woman at their “level” rejects them. The entitlement is astonishing.
Wait until they find out women they deem less physically attractive than them will also reject them for their behaviors, looks only matter so much. Most women are not willing to put up with disrespect or abuse no matter how attractive the man is.
These are the same guys that think seeing a woman they find attractive in public is all you need to meet someone and get married. They get so upset at the notion that it is statistically unlikely to work that you try to date someone based on looks and nothing else and approach them as a complete stranger and actually get them to go out with you. That is before they even get to their behavior.
There is LITERALLY one of these guys right now on the body language subreddit, self proclaimed 7.5 on a 10 scale over reading what it means when a women who are 9 and 10s don't give him eye contact. The delusion is insane, he thinks he is automatically entitled to all womens attention and that they are interested in him because hes a "7.5" thank god hes humble because who know what his expectations would be if he declared himself a "10". ROFL
I was just telling my soon to be ex, who was emotionally abusive, “do you know how easy it’s going to be for me to find someone after this? My only requirements are that he is kind and never shouts at me. Who cares about looks.”
And I mean it. I can’t wait until I’m with someone who treats me with care.
'Looksmatch' but the personality of a mouldy lump of septicemia.
Introspection is impossible for these people, and they will never understand accordingly.
This is depressingly accurate. They basically see women as appliances to serve their desires and they can just buy it with good looks or money. But when they don't have that they get pissy because "nice" should be an acceptable form of currency. How dare these women not accept their sub par payment?
It's kinda scary how transactional some people are. They literally cannot see a relationship as two human beings who enjoy each other's presence and want to share a life together. They go through Olympic level mental gymnastics when it comes to relationships but they can't seem to grasp the most basic concept of all: women.are.people. Just normal people living their lives. That's it.
I always think - there are probably enough women who are also transactional. There is no shortage of women willing to gry together with rich men. And this is ok. But these women willing to get into a transactional relationship with rich men won't waste a second with incels because they have no money to buy their trophy wife or trophy girlfriend.
Then why don’t they go court those men’s wives and girlfriends and leave those of us not with “worse” men than them alone?
I mean, since they’re such an upgrade surely they’d jump at the chance to show off how amazingly not total shit they are to those women and save them from their husbands and boyfriends?
Except, they don’t do that. They point to women with low standards and lower self esteem and say, “Why aren’t you beaten down enough to settle for less than you deserve like she is? I want to abuse and degrade a woman and you should let me because I’m such a special boy and if other men get to do it so should I!”
Fuck. No.
I think the women in abusive relationships still would not pick those guys, and they know it too. If an attractive woman who is a 9-10 is unhappy with their relationship, it doesn't mean she will jump to a 5 or under guy who has no job, etc, just because he promises he won't abuse her 🤦♀️.
Yes! Dudes tried so hard to pry ME off from my abusive Ex. Oh.. half the time I hated him. But. Being with my Ex was more attractive then dating any of my guy friends. Why you say?
🚩 Deep anger issues with women
🚩Fully unquestioning of the Patriarchy / Keeps the statis quo
Which women do they feel entitled to? They feel entitled to beautiful submissive women who behave exactly as they expect them to at all times, so, in other words, fictional women. They don't understand that real women are people, and they don't understand that they are not entitled to any woman, and should try being a realistic person who finds a woman he has things in common with.
I have to admit that I sometimes spend my weekend helping or trolling these men depending on how the conversation goes. If they sincerely seem desperate and clueless on how to move forward with ‘how to date’. I give reasonable advice from the point of view of a guy (me) who is generally physically unattractive but has had a lifetime (I am 55) of moderate success of dating and coexistence with women without being too much of a cad. Other than my marriage (a train wreck from all angles), I’ve don’t fine.
If they are defensive jerks, I troll them for sport and shamelessly vex them until their account invariably gets deleted within the hour, as it always does.
Godspeed my friend!
My favorite troll comment about looks and dating I hope to reuse one day is, "Franz Joseph Gall called. He wants his craniometer back."
When people draw out-sized conclusions based on 'bone structure," it sounds like a dog whistle.
I can't tell if I am seeing useful dupes, radicalized individuals or something else.
These are the same men who put no effort into their appearance or hygiene, have no manners and their dating profiles seem like they are looking for other men to hunt, fish, fix cars and talk about sports and they are just flabbergasted, absolutely confused as to why women aren't flooding their inboxes with a burning desire to spend time with them. I tell them to be someone that others are excited to be around and everything in their lives will improve.
100% this. One of the individual's argument was he went to the gym for 6 months and lost weight, why he not getting hot women's now as he "put in effort". Effort alone does not entitle anyone to another person. Makes it worse his post history called overweight women "land whales" and he specifically felt entitled to " a cute girl with a wolf haircut". 🤦♀️
Crazy they think self improvement should automatically get them women. Like basic hygiene, self care and maintenance should be the minimum a guy should be doing as a human being.
I had a guy stalk me because he felt I was the perfect girlfriend, liked my looks, and it made sense because I was already a part of the same social group. We actually had nothing much in common plus he was very religious and very conservative. He couldn't decide whether he wanted to evangelize me or just fuck me half the time and was supremely frustrated that I wanted nothing to do with him romantically speaking and wouldn't change religions to suit him either.
He was the first INCEL/self proclaimed nice guy I ever had the displeasure of meeting and I really ended up regretting ever even being polite to him. I was trying not to be roped into dating him but also not to offend our mutual friends and the longer I refrained from just telling him to fuck off the worse the situation got. I finally gave up and ran and that's when he totally went cookoo and started stalking me for real.
Guys like this there is no reasoning with them. They're just mentally ill and beyond help most of them. They can be downright scary...
"I'm a nice guy, I'd never hit a woman."
See, here's the thing. She's not getting hit while she's single. She's also not cleaning up after an ungrateful manchild, listening to a guy's incessant whining about sex, or being anyone's emotional punching bag/therapist.
You need to offer someone things they actually want. You can't just be a burden.
I can't wait until we can find a space where we can stop feeling the need to say Not All Men.
This isn't a dig at you OP, I know why you wrote it, I'm just fucking sick of it.
Anyone who uses the term "chad" is someone I'd never associate with, so no, I don't hear that same level of entitlement from the men I call my family and friends. Those kind of men are degenerates. They don't think they are entitled to women, just women out of their league. They are the same guys that wouldn't give your average gal the time of day except to sit in mens group and talk badly about them. Guys like that are mental.
When I see that term, I automatically assume his entire personality is online. It's really weird. I heard one person talking about it in person once. He sucked and I walked away from him.
The first time I ever heard that term used was on reddit in forums about men complaining about not getting women. That was also the first time I heard the terms "becky" and "stacy" used and was shocked to learn what they are. I heard my brother use those terms a few time and just believed he was referring to actual women with those names.
These men, like most men, vastly overestimate how attractive they really are. What they consider their “looks match” is actually way out of their league. The entitlement and lack of self awareness is astounding
Sadly my brother is one of those men, refusing to work on himself. Does his 9-5 and comes home and games nonstop and repeat. His room is a mess and he refuses to go to the gym with me, saying he is in "peak physical performance" and the gym is a waste of time. That he won't see results (without even trying) unless he go on roids on something.
I like how because other "worse" men married and procreated with women who aren't you, they're entitled to YOUR time and attention.
They really do see women as interchangeable objects, don't they?
100000% agree with this, but they think its okay, because they aren't physically abusing you. A lot of those men are poor partner prospects, and see women only as inhuman objects.
>This logic has me appalled and flabbergasted, because that is NOT the bar 🤦♀️. Does any other women have experience with this or am I just unfortunate?
That literally has been the bar for thousands of years. Gen Z women are changing the rules and I love them for it.
It was not the bar, there was LITERALLY no bar because women were not allowed to work, hold property, vote, choose marriage partners etc. Even now women in some countries are still sold off like cattle, child brides, etc. Hard to say theres any bar when you are getting forcefully married to a man who can treat you as his property and in some countries legally beat you, use physical means to discipline you and even legally honor kill/slaughter you if your "behavior" falls under what the laws allow.
Naw, I'm talking about the bar for being considered a good husband. Heard it countless times from older women. "He's a good man. Never hurts me and he pays the bills".
I read "that is not the bar" as "that is not the bear" and I was like damn straight a bear wouldn't engage in this bs. stg so many dudes out there going OH BUT HE'S AN ACTUAL SEX OFFENDER BUT HE'S MARRIED WHY SHOULDN'T I ALSO HAVE ACCESS TO FREE MAID SERVICES AND SEX.
Lol are they going to flip when they learn there are convicted felons in JAIL who are married or who got married while they are serving their time.
Hm... sir, the lady picked a jailed man over you, are you going to try to improve yourself and work harder? No? Just shame her for her choices if things go wrong and say she should have "picked" better? I see...
Men like this are *thinking backwards* starting with why some couples don't work "after" initial steps
A woman needs to first feel attracted to a man, being them funny and relaxed or something
Then to remain as couple both partners need to attract each other on daily basis
Those dudes think because some couples don't work "after" and because they wouldn't make those exact misbehaviours therefore they should be looked upon
There's some true to women having overall more choices than men when it comes to dating. The sad part is that most of those options are terrible.
This imbalance is perceived by internet men as "playing life in easy mode" which is far from true. Anything else is just the internet doing its magic and resentment instead of self reflection.
Best answer to that is avoiding their rage click baits.
The thing that freaks me out the most is just how unfazed these young men are by the things they’re saying. I swear if I have to hear the words “high value” one more goddamn time I’m gna headbutt a fucking cactus. Christ, these are the same dudes parroting progressive ideals in one moment, then finish championing whatever cause they’re feigning for only to resume their Shapiro/Tate/Peterson podcast in the next.
Lol, most of those men are not high value even as Tate or the other male directed podcasts call it. Most men simply do not make enough. As per the US Census the average male only makes 45,902 in 2022. And if you look at [https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/average-salary-by-age/#average\_salary\_by\_age\_and\_gender\_section](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/average-salary-by-age/#average_salary_by_age_and_gender_section) most men regardless of age will never make enough. The podcasts themselves define high value as a man of wealth, generally understood by at least 6 figures or more annual income. Funny how they can overlook the requirements they do not meet and then impose what requirements the podcasters say women need to have.
Oh my god wait high value literally just means money? All this time I thought it was just a shitty name for all of a person’s better qualities. It’s literally just income?
That’s like announcing to the world “all I have to offer is money” and then being surprised when the only people they attract want money. But then they don’t even have that lol.
It's not only about money, but money is a large part of it. A lot of the podcasts are basically telling young men to work put, get money, don't chase girls and to build themselves aka wealth, status and looks (gym bod) and that girls will seek them out once they obtained those things.
Doesn't exist because their audience doesn't want to hear it. What they want to hear is if they do x,y,z they will get the girl they want or the girl they choose.
This explains so much. So many of the youngsters that I see entering the trades are the most insufferably entitled punks I’ve ever met. It makes sense now, and I’m so incredibly sorry that we (speaking generally as men) have failed you in this regard. If I was a woman I’d probably decenter men from my life, too, after hearing all the constant dehumanizing comments.
It's like a child seeing their sibling get a toy, and the child goes "but I did better than them, why don't I get the toy!" It's objectification and dehumanization. Edit: and yes entitlement
Obligatory I’m a guy
And let me be the first to say that this question comes from what I am assuming to be a place of privilege.
Why do you need a “not all men” disclaimer? This is yinz space, yeah?
I can infer it’s because the thread gets comment bombed, but is it so frequent it needs a disclaimer? It’s like wearing hospital booties on your own shoes in your own house, lol
To minimize men from spamming this thread with "not all men" or " I am a man and I don't ..." comments which shifts the focus from the actual points and arguments of the post.
I’m sorry that happens. I had a feeling that was the reason but didn’t know if it was part of some sort of subreddit rules or something and wanted to avoid assuming.
Thanks for taking the time to respond
There is literally a man commenting on this topic saying "Isn't it women who are picking these men who are setting the bar?"
Then he yammers om about "lonely" men despite me never using that word in any of the arguments on this thread...🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
What they fail to understand is that this line of thinking is why women don’t want to date them. Entitlement is a turn off. It doesn’t even sound like they long for a special connection and have a beautiful family. When people long for these things they normally don’t say thing a like this. They simply feel entitled to OWN a woman and have little mini mes to control and abuse. Even their language sounds violent.
They simply want to have women and kids as their property. Men like that are abusers. Of course women run the other way.
I wonder if that dude would be ok with the cheerleader just being with a totally different guy instead of the supposed abusive chad, or if the situation would only be ok if she landed in HIS bed specifically.
Pretty obv from his comments he doesn't actually care about her welfare, just upset he wanted her and she picked someone else. If things go south in the relationship they validate themselves and get joy from her misery to soothe their egos from the rejection they faced. According to other commenter's on that subreddit the scenario the guy is set on is a typical "incel fantasy".
They don't talk about the girls who rejected them and ended up in happy relationship with other men, of which I am sure there are many.
I am afab, married to another woman
The amount of men who take personal insult from the fact that I am a lesbian both amuses and horrifies me. Like, how dare a woman exist if not for man! Lots of "are you sure?" comments, as well as "have you tried it with a man?" Yes, and it was not with my consent, so.....
My wife, who presents very butch, who wears men's dress shirts and bow ties, confuses the shit out of men. How dare she wear clothing that she is comfortable in, instead of sexy wimin clothes for men to ogle at! She has had men stare at her completely covered bust and hesitantly address her as "Sir". Would be funnier if she was non binary instead of me.
Oooomg there was a dude who was hunting around for girls in his area disguising it as looking for friends and not wanting to date. He guilt tripped people using stats and his own neurodivergence and spammed shit like crazy. He never took accountability. Thank god he deleted his account and his previous one that was much worse.
I have a handful of male friends I met in my high school years and have stayed friends. Only reason it works is because we are not physically attracted to each other in anyway and it was great. Since i glowed up, hitting gym etc. every guy old or younger I have tried to be friends with just seems to have a romantic interest and it is so off putting. Truth is if a woman wants to be friends with guys she has to not be physically attractive.
Yeah I’m lucky to have male friends in the same manner too. Also I got some requests when I glowed up too but I felt icky and rejected them. Not even glowing down helps in this matter.
Issue is that this dude in his previous account specified a 18-27 neurodivergent cis girl with no tattoos and in his current account befriending a cute girl was progress. He also had harassment accusations when he was younger.
I go thru life with the perspective that noone ows you or anyone anything. They can pull shit and be giga disrespecting etc.
Like that does a man/woman dont owe anything the opposite gender. No entilement and shi. Everything can happen.
We can never be entitled to another human being. This is the very simple flaw in their logic. When you feel entitled to another person, you are automatically wrong, and you can only sustain that belief by dehumanizing them and seeing them as property.
I mean, apparently the bar is even lower, right? There are plenty of horrible men in committed relationships who beat, cheat on, and berate their partners. Those guys are getting over the bar, aren’t they?
The bar is different for different men. We all know men with money and power not only get away with more in every circumstance, but women are willing to put up with more for access to the man's resources, clout, connections, etc. Just look at Huberman who got caught lying and simultaneous dating 6 women, one of the top comments on his ig post was a pretty young blonde woman asking if she could be #7 🤦♀️🤷♀️
Then you have the men with no looks, no wealth, no money, no resources who also want to treat women poorly but feel entitled to it because they still treat them better than the other men out there who would have treated them worse.
Why is the bar different for different people? I think that’s the crux of the issue, and the reason that so many people feel not good enough. The answer is pretty much that people are shallow, which isn’t a very satisfactory answer for anybody.
I think what you’re misrepresenting is that lonely men want to treat women poorly. Sure, those men do exist, but pretending that there aren’t lonely men who want to treat all people well is odd.
I think what you are misundertanding is there are men who set the bar low, but get away with it due to privilege. There are men without that privileged who see the bar set low and think by raising the bar slightly above where the other men set it they are entitled to the women the other men have or the women of their choosing.
Asking why Huberman can cheat on 6 women and women still throw themselves at him as opposed to regular 40k income a year Joe down the block seems to denote a lack of understanding of how real life works.
Nowhere did I mention lonely or use that term at all, what projection is this? Are you a guy because your comment history seems to suggest so?
Wouldn’t it be the women choosing those men who are setting the bar? I don’t see why it’s objectionable to call out the abuse of privilege and the common acceptance of it. Like, I understand your points, but you seem to be upset with the people who call out shitty actions instead of the people acting shitty and the people accepting it.
How else would you describe these men other than lonely?
1st of all Thank You for going to the women should "pick better" argument. Good because women are exiting the market place and not picking at all see Korea's 4B movement and men ARE STILL UPSET.
Instead of asking shitty men to be better blame the women picking them. GOOD, now many are choosing not to pick at all. The men are lonely because they choose to be. These men cannot hangout with other men? Cannot just be friends with women? PLEASE spare us these falsehoods, most of those "lonely" men are just crying about their lack of access to sex. Plenty of non sexual, non romantic companionship if they wanted it
Go volunteer at nursing home and build relationships with lonely old folks, nope they only want it with hot young women 🙄
I think each person sets the bar for what they will accept in a relationship, right? It’s not their potential suitors setting the bar, the suitors are the ones who have to clear the bar or fail to, right?
I do think shitty men should be better, I’m not sure what indicated otherwise. Unfortunately, shitty men are enabled by society and incentivized to continue acting shitty. One of these incentives is attracting women who will accept shittiness for whatever reason, maybe out of desperation, or their own mutual shittiness. I think it’s fair to criticize these shitty men, and also to criticize those around them who accept them and enable them.
I don’t see any issue with women choosing to be single or staying away from men, again not sure if I indicated that or not.
Fair point about the difference between abject loneliness and the desire for intimacy. Is there a better word to describe them? I don’t think incel is quite right, even ignoring the baggage of the term, because many people can get casual sex, but are unable to find love or intimacy.
Still, is it wrong of those people to desire to love and to be loved? There are emotional needs that can’t be fulfilled through community or platonic friendship.
Women seem to be getting those emotional needs fulfilled through community or platonic friendship, how interesting that "men" can't. Do you hear posts about an epidemic of women loneliness?
Good, if the men don't want to be lonely and women should pick better then women won't pick the loser men until they better themselves.
Also many women can get casual sex easily, nowhere near as easy for the average man.
Are they? I don’t think it’s about men and women inherently having different emotional needs, I think it’s more that an intimate partner is able to fulfill them to a different degree than a close friend or family. Would you argue that a single person is capable of the same emotional sharing and connection that a married couple of many years is? I just don’t think that’s possible.
And yes, I do hear about an epidemic of lonely young people. Men and women. I think the numbers do skew towards men being ‘lonelier’, but it’s overwhelmingly a young person thing.
Bro can you get off this sub if you are not going to emphasize it's crazy you talk about emotional sharing of a married couple, when another women just posted on this sub her husband of many years left her and the two year old for another women.
For the majority of women, it is better to be alone than to be with bad or abusive men. It is a lot less the case for men, most of them still get sex, chores etc out of it and the odds of dying by the hands of your partner are nowhere near as high for women as it is for men. Literally another post on here put today about news article whee a dancer who was strangled to death by her bf during sex. She was prob better off alone than being with him. The fact you are here and tone deaf to women's complaints are crazy.
The ratio of men being unalived by their partners are nowhere near the numbers of women being unalived by their male partners. All this and you go off emotional need when there are women with small children constantly being cheated on and men leaving mistresses for.
Not sure about you but I would rather be alive and healthy and mentally well than put up with subpar and or abusive men who may potentially end the life I love living.
Women seem to prefer a man who will hit them to one who'll take off.
"I can get under your skin and you'll hit me for it," seems to beat, "I can't get under your skin because you just don't care," and, "If I get under your skin you'll walk out."
The commitment to the relationship seems to make a difference.
There’s literally no difference between this guy and the “chad” guy - he presents himself as a “nicer” guy but underlies the same level of dehumanisation of women. Not to mention, if he did get the same girl and she’d raise a concern about the relationship, he would be the first one to point out how grateful she should be since he “doesn’t hit her”. He has set the bar for men as low by comparing horrible men to himself and not realising he’s one of them as well.
doesn't hit her = they will abuse in every other way possible and keep excusing their behavior because they didn't hit her.
I see you've met my ex-husband
Glad hes an ex.
Mine too, they must be twins!
Ive had my own siblings try to downplay my exps of abuse growin up bcuz i was the only one who nvr got hit (nvr needed to, the threat was enuf for me); i just got abused with words endlessly and told my feelings and emotions and anythin else dont matter, esp moreso when theyre not in line with how others were experiencin things... And treated as if i shud be perfect bcuz i was the "good kid" by virtue of tryin so hard to not get hit my ownself
This is a good point how absolutely awful this is and why there needs to be more awareness of other flavors of abuse that are extremely damaging. Living in a pressure cooker absolutely sucks and it can cause both mental and physical damage to your health.
I think he should have read your reply. I think you essentially summed up the entire issue. If we reversed the argument and said he had to "accept" a girl he didn't find particularly physically attractive or even worse if he found her unattractive but she did not physically or verbally abuse him, he would have to accept and be with her, I wonder if his perspective would change on what the bar is.
That's when they fall back on evopsych pseudoscience about how men are evolved to be attracted to youth and beauty but women are only allowed to be attracted to nice guy providers 🙄
It is socially acceptable for men to be attracted to youth and beauty, but if a woman is attracted to wealth or a man for his ability to provide, shes a "gold-digger".
And if a woman is attracted to a man with no money she's judged for that too: either "emasculating" him if she's the breadwinner or "choosing the wrong guy" if she's equally broke. There's no way for women to act that's good enough for men like that, and that's by design. Lesbians/wlw aren't even considered in their worldview of course.
Lol if she picks a man with no money and complains, then they tell her she should have "picked better", can't win.
It's not acceptable for women to be attracted to anything, because the moment women have preferences and a choice, she is resented. The cheerleader in this example may be attracted to her husband's looks. If I go by Chad - how her husband is described - her husband is probably tall and non obese. The girl might be attracted to that, like that niceguy is attracted to the blonde and blue eyed cheerleader. It's always funny to me because incel-minded guys are always after young physically attractive women and will justify to death that they have a preference. This alone is fine - but the women in turn might have a preference too. And if the young attractive woman has a preference for young attractive men - that's her preference, she is allowed to have one. "Gold digging" is a concept that incels are totally fine with- it's a transaction beauty + youth vs money. When they are complaining about gold digging they never do because of the concept, they do because they are broke ass losers who have no money so they can't buy themselves a young and conventionally good looking trophy wife.
They think women are their personal prostitutes/sex slaves, and thus the women are not allowed to have a preferance because then it wouldn't be 'professional', because if those women have a preferance for better and the freedom to enact it, then the women would never go for these incel losers. And these incels know what they are, they know they'd never be picked, not willingly at least. Thus they want sex slaves instead, who have no say, no rights, no nothing.
Yes, that's it right there. Good old evopsych. It almost sounds, sometimes, as though it was written specifically to uphold mens desires and make give their sick fantasies a 'sciencetific' flavour.
Great way to put it!!
I'm pretty sure the only difference between a "nice guy" and a Chad is that the nice guy happens to be ugly. According to incel lore, both character archetypes seem to share the same views about women and have the same level of entitlement.
Great perspective, now that I think about it, you are 100% correct, this is the first time I heard this view. The nice guy is not actually nice, he presents himself as one to try to obligate women to return their affections or give them sex because they feel "indebted" to them by their behaviors and actions. They prob would be Chads if they can, but they understand their looks limitation and resort to being the nice guy. Super eye opening.
On the Incel and Dating subs (which often seem to be one in the same) they constantly post about how they are entitled to a woman simply because shes their “looksmatch”. Men on that sub are always crying about how they don’t understand how a woman at their “level” rejects them. The entitlement is astonishing.
Wait until they find out women they deem less physically attractive than them will also reject them for their behaviors, looks only matter so much. Most women are not willing to put up with disrespect or abuse no matter how attractive the man is.
These are the same guys that think seeing a woman they find attractive in public is all you need to meet someone and get married. They get so upset at the notion that it is statistically unlikely to work that you try to date someone based on looks and nothing else and approach them as a complete stranger and actually get them to go out with you. That is before they even get to their behavior.
There is LITERALLY one of these guys right now on the body language subreddit, self proclaimed 7.5 on a 10 scale over reading what it means when a women who are 9 and 10s don't give him eye contact. The delusion is insane, he thinks he is automatically entitled to all womens attention and that they are interested in him because hes a "7.5" thank god hes humble because who know what his expectations would be if he declared himself a "10". ROFL
The whole scoring people on their looks like a big indicator they imbibe in way too much incel content.
I was just telling my soon to be ex, who was emotionally abusive, “do you know how easy it’s going to be for me to find someone after this? My only requirements are that he is kind and never shouts at me. Who cares about looks.” And I mean it. I can’t wait until I’m with someone who treats me with care.
'Looksmatch' but the personality of a mouldy lump of septicemia. Introspection is impossible for these people, and they will never understand accordingly.
Incel is the key word!
That’s disgusting
A lot of males feel entitled to women because they see us as objects who exist for their convenience and pleasure.
This is depressingly accurate. They basically see women as appliances to serve their desires and they can just buy it with good looks or money. But when they don't have that they get pissy because "nice" should be an acceptable form of currency. How dare these women not accept their sub par payment? It's kinda scary how transactional some people are. They literally cannot see a relationship as two human beings who enjoy each other's presence and want to share a life together. They go through Olympic level mental gymnastics when it comes to relationships but they can't seem to grasp the most basic concept of all: women.are.people. Just normal people living their lives. That's it.
I always think - there are probably enough women who are also transactional. There is no shortage of women willing to gry together with rich men. And this is ok. But these women willing to get into a transactional relationship with rich men won't waste a second with incels because they have no money to buy their trophy wife or trophy girlfriend.
Then why don’t they go court those men’s wives and girlfriends and leave those of us not with “worse” men than them alone? I mean, since they’re such an upgrade surely they’d jump at the chance to show off how amazingly not total shit they are to those women and save them from their husbands and boyfriends? Except, they don’t do that. They point to women with low standards and lower self esteem and say, “Why aren’t you beaten down enough to settle for less than you deserve like she is? I want to abuse and degrade a woman and you should let me because I’m such a special boy and if other men get to do it so should I!” Fuck. No.
I think the women in abusive relationships still would not pick those guys, and they know it too. If an attractive woman who is a 9-10 is unhappy with their relationship, it doesn't mean she will jump to a 5 or under guy who has no job, etc, just because he promises he won't abuse her 🤦♀️.
Yes! Dudes tried so hard to pry ME off from my abusive Ex. Oh.. half the time I hated him. But. Being with my Ex was more attractive then dating any of my guy friends. Why you say? 🚩 Deep anger issues with women 🚩Fully unquestioning of the Patriarchy / Keeps the statis quo
Which women do they feel entitled to? They feel entitled to beautiful submissive women who behave exactly as they expect them to at all times, so, in other words, fictional women. They don't understand that real women are people, and they don't understand that they are not entitled to any woman, and should try being a realistic person who finds a woman he has things in common with.
I have to admit that I sometimes spend my weekend helping or trolling these men depending on how the conversation goes. If they sincerely seem desperate and clueless on how to move forward with ‘how to date’. I give reasonable advice from the point of view of a guy (me) who is generally physically unattractive but has had a lifetime (I am 55) of moderate success of dating and coexistence with women without being too much of a cad. Other than my marriage (a train wreck from all angles), I’ve don’t fine. If they are defensive jerks, I troll them for sport and shamelessly vex them until their account invariably gets deleted within the hour, as it always does.
Godspeed my friend! My favorite troll comment about looks and dating I hope to reuse one day is, "Franz Joseph Gall called. He wants his craniometer back." When people draw out-sized conclusions based on 'bone structure," it sounds like a dog whistle. I can't tell if I am seeing useful dupes, radicalized individuals or something else.
I confess that the purplepilldebate sub was a real outlet for my frustrations for a while
\*\*\* runs to lurk in that subreddit
Wow you wouldn’t hit a woman? *you’redoingamazingsweetie.gif*
These are the same men who put no effort into their appearance or hygiene, have no manners and their dating profiles seem like they are looking for other men to hunt, fish, fix cars and talk about sports and they are just flabbergasted, absolutely confused as to why women aren't flooding their inboxes with a burning desire to spend time with them. I tell them to be someone that others are excited to be around and everything in their lives will improve.
100% this. One of the individual's argument was he went to the gym for 6 months and lost weight, why he not getting hot women's now as he "put in effort". Effort alone does not entitle anyone to another person. Makes it worse his post history called overweight women "land whales" and he specifically felt entitled to " a cute girl with a wolf haircut". 🤦♀️
They act like there is some gym punch card where you get a free wife after 20 punches
Crazy they think self improvement should automatically get them women. Like basic hygiene, self care and maintenance should be the minimum a guy should be doing as a human being.
What the hell is a wolf haircut???
It’s like a shag and a mullet had a little lesbian child.
🤣 thank you for that imagery
🤣 And it is GLORIOUS!!!
Google Suzy Quattro
💯this!
I had a guy stalk me because he felt I was the perfect girlfriend, liked my looks, and it made sense because I was already a part of the same social group. We actually had nothing much in common plus he was very religious and very conservative. He couldn't decide whether he wanted to evangelize me or just fuck me half the time and was supremely frustrated that I wanted nothing to do with him romantically speaking and wouldn't change religions to suit him either. He was the first INCEL/self proclaimed nice guy I ever had the displeasure of meeting and I really ended up regretting ever even being polite to him. I was trying not to be roped into dating him but also not to offend our mutual friends and the longer I refrained from just telling him to fuck off the worse the situation got. I finally gave up and ran and that's when he totally went cookoo and started stalking me for real. Guys like this there is no reasoning with them. They're just mentally ill and beyond help most of them. They can be downright scary...
"I'm a nice guy, I'd never hit a woman." See, here's the thing. She's not getting hit while she's single. She's also not cleaning up after an ungrateful manchild, listening to a guy's incessant whining about sex, or being anyone's emotional punching bag/therapist. You need to offer someone things they actually want. You can't just be a burden.
I can't wait until we can find a space where we can stop feeling the need to say Not All Men. This isn't a dig at you OP, I know why you wrote it, I'm just fucking sick of it.
Anyone who uses the term "chad" is someone I'd never associate with, so no, I don't hear that same level of entitlement from the men I call my family and friends. Those kind of men are degenerates. They don't think they are entitled to women, just women out of their league. They are the same guys that wouldn't give your average gal the time of day except to sit in mens group and talk badly about them. Guys like that are mental.
When I see that term, I automatically assume his entire personality is online. It's really weird. I heard one person talking about it in person once. He sucked and I walked away from him.
The first time I ever heard that term used was on reddit in forums about men complaining about not getting women. That was also the first time I heard the terms "becky" and "stacy" used and was shocked to learn what they are. I heard my brother use those terms a few time and just believed he was referring to actual women with those names.
They only want a certain type a women for social currency. To uplift his status with other men.
What's missing from this mindset is the radical idea that women are people with their own agency and their own motives.
These men, like most men, vastly overestimate how attractive they really are. What they consider their “looks match” is actually way out of their league. The entitlement and lack of self awareness is astounding
Sadly my brother is one of those men, refusing to work on himself. Does his 9-5 and comes home and games nonstop and repeat. His room is a mess and he refuses to go to the gym with me, saying he is in "peak physical performance" and the gym is a waste of time. That he won't see results (without even trying) unless he go on roids on something.
I like how because other "worse" men married and procreated with women who aren't you, they're entitled to YOUR time and attention. They really do see women as interchangeable objects, don't they?
Those kinds of "nice guys" tend to abuse you in other ways. They don't need to do it with a fist
100000% agree with this, but they think its okay, because they aren't physically abusing you. A lot of those men are poor partner prospects, and see women only as inhuman objects.
Some of them even sexually assault you. You don't need to be an AH chad to do that.
>This logic has me appalled and flabbergasted, because that is NOT the bar 🤦♀️. Does any other women have experience with this or am I just unfortunate? That literally has been the bar for thousands of years. Gen Z women are changing the rules and I love them for it.
It was not the bar, there was LITERALLY no bar because women were not allowed to work, hold property, vote, choose marriage partners etc. Even now women in some countries are still sold off like cattle, child brides, etc. Hard to say theres any bar when you are getting forcefully married to a man who can treat you as his property and in some countries legally beat you, use physical means to discipline you and even legally honor kill/slaughter you if your "behavior" falls under what the laws allow.
Naw, I'm talking about the bar for being considered a good husband. Heard it countless times from older women. "He's a good man. Never hurts me and he pays the bills".
I mean that is probably what women still say in countries where it is legal for men to physically discipline their wives.
Yep
Nope, I’ve encountered it plenty irl. My husband’s BFF was one of these guys and (surprise) he was a total misogynist hypocrite POS.
Besides my moron brother, I am lucky I have never encountered this IRL, just mostly on reddit.
I’m honestly surprised at my self-control, that I haven’t gone to jail for punching any of these dudes. 😂
I read "that is not the bar" as "that is not the bear" and I was like damn straight a bear wouldn't engage in this bs. stg so many dudes out there going OH BUT HE'S AN ACTUAL SEX OFFENDER BUT HE'S MARRIED WHY SHOULDN'T I ALSO HAVE ACCESS TO FREE MAID SERVICES AND SEX.
Lol are they going to flip when they learn there are convicted felons in JAIL who are married or who got married while they are serving their time. Hm... sir, the lady picked a jailed man over you, are you going to try to improve yourself and work harder? No? Just shame her for her choices if things go wrong and say she should have "picked" better? I see...
Men like this are *thinking backwards* starting with why some couples don't work "after" initial steps A woman needs to first feel attracted to a man, being them funny and relaxed or something Then to remain as couple both partners need to attract each other on daily basis Those dudes think because some couples don't work "after" and because they wouldn't make those exact misbehaviours therefore they should be looked upon
There's some true to women having overall more choices than men when it comes to dating. The sad part is that most of those options are terrible. This imbalance is perceived by internet men as "playing life in easy mode" which is far from true. Anything else is just the internet doing its magic and resentment instead of self reflection. Best answer to that is avoiding their rage click baits.
The thing that freaks me out the most is just how unfazed these young men are by the things they’re saying. I swear if I have to hear the words “high value” one more goddamn time I’m gna headbutt a fucking cactus. Christ, these are the same dudes parroting progressive ideals in one moment, then finish championing whatever cause they’re feigning for only to resume their Shapiro/Tate/Peterson podcast in the next.
They all deserve to be lonely
Lol, most of those men are not high value even as Tate or the other male directed podcasts call it. Most men simply do not make enough. As per the US Census the average male only makes 45,902 in 2022. And if you look at [https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/average-salary-by-age/#average\_salary\_by\_age\_and\_gender\_section](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/average-salary-by-age/#average_salary_by_age_and_gender_section) most men regardless of age will never make enough. The podcasts themselves define high value as a man of wealth, generally understood by at least 6 figures or more annual income. Funny how they can overlook the requirements they do not meet and then impose what requirements the podcasters say women need to have.
Oh my god wait high value literally just means money? All this time I thought it was just a shitty name for all of a person’s better qualities. It’s literally just income? That’s like announcing to the world “all I have to offer is money” and then being surprised when the only people they attract want money. But then they don’t even have that lol.
It's not only about money, but money is a large part of it. A lot of the podcasts are basically telling young men to work put, get money, don't chase girls and to build themselves aka wealth, status and looks (gym bod) and that girls will seek them out once they obtained those things.
Where’s the podcast that tells them to just stop being assholes? /s
Doesn't exist because their audience doesn't want to hear it. What they want to hear is if they do x,y,z they will get the girl they want or the girl they choose.
This explains so much. So many of the youngsters that I see entering the trades are the most insufferably entitled punks I’ve ever met. It makes sense now, and I’m so incredibly sorry that we (speaking generally as men) have failed you in this regard. If I was a woman I’d probably decenter men from my life, too, after hearing all the constant dehumanizing comments.
Honestly, I wouldn’t engage with losers, you’re wasting your time arguing with stupid and your return on time investment will be negative.
It's like a child seeing their sibling get a toy, and the child goes "but I did better than them, why don't I get the toy!" It's objectification and dehumanization. Edit: and yes entitlement
seriously insightful summary of the psychology a++
"The bar for men is so low even Hermes Conrad couldn't limbo under it" is a favourite saying of mine.
Obligatory I’m a guy And let me be the first to say that this question comes from what I am assuming to be a place of privilege. Why do you need a “not all men” disclaimer? This is yinz space, yeah? I can infer it’s because the thread gets comment bombed, but is it so frequent it needs a disclaimer? It’s like wearing hospital booties on your own shoes in your own house, lol
To minimize men from spamming this thread with "not all men" or " I am a man and I don't ..." comments which shifts the focus from the actual points and arguments of the post.
I’m sorry that happens. I had a feeling that was the reason but didn’t know if it was part of some sort of subreddit rules or something and wanted to avoid assuming. Thanks for taking the time to respond
There is literally a man commenting on this topic saying "Isn't it women who are picking these men who are setting the bar?" Then he yammers om about "lonely" men despite me never using that word in any of the arguments on this thread...🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
What they fail to understand is that this line of thinking is why women don’t want to date them. Entitlement is a turn off. It doesn’t even sound like they long for a special connection and have a beautiful family. When people long for these things they normally don’t say thing a like this. They simply feel entitled to OWN a woman and have little mini mes to control and abuse. Even their language sounds violent. They simply want to have women and kids as their property. Men like that are abusers. Of course women run the other way.
I wonder if that dude would be ok with the cheerleader just being with a totally different guy instead of the supposed abusive chad, or if the situation would only be ok if she landed in HIS bed specifically.
Pretty obv from his comments he doesn't actually care about her welfare, just upset he wanted her and she picked someone else. If things go south in the relationship they validate themselves and get joy from her misery to soothe their egos from the rejection they faced. According to other commenter's on that subreddit the scenario the guy is set on is a typical "incel fantasy". They don't talk about the girls who rejected them and ended up in happy relationship with other men, of which I am sure there are many.
I am afab, married to another woman The amount of men who take personal insult from the fact that I am a lesbian both amuses and horrifies me. Like, how dare a woman exist if not for man! Lots of "are you sure?" comments, as well as "have you tried it with a man?" Yes, and it was not with my consent, so..... My wife, who presents very butch, who wears men's dress shirts and bow ties, confuses the shit out of men. How dare she wear clothing that she is comfortable in, instead of sexy wimin clothes for men to ogle at! She has had men stare at her completely covered bust and hesitantly address her as "Sir". Would be funnier if she was non binary instead of me.
Oooomg there was a dude who was hunting around for girls in his area disguising it as looking for friends and not wanting to date. He guilt tripped people using stats and his own neurodivergence and spammed shit like crazy. He never took accountability. Thank god he deleted his account and his previous one that was much worse.
I have a handful of male friends I met in my high school years and have stayed friends. Only reason it works is because we are not physically attracted to each other in anyway and it was great. Since i glowed up, hitting gym etc. every guy old or younger I have tried to be friends with just seems to have a romantic interest and it is so off putting. Truth is if a woman wants to be friends with guys she has to not be physically attractive.
Yeah I’m lucky to have male friends in the same manner too. Also I got some requests when I glowed up too but I felt icky and rejected them. Not even glowing down helps in this matter. Issue is that this dude in his previous account specified a 18-27 neurodivergent cis girl with no tattoos and in his current account befriending a cute girl was progress. He also had harassment accusations when he was younger.
That age range 18-27 is a HUGE red flag, esp depending on his age.
Dude was 21. So I guess it made sense but still. He was down a pretty bad road, trying to use research studies on loneliness to justify his behavior.
I go thru life with the perspective that noone ows you or anyone anything. They can pull shit and be giga disrespecting etc. Like that does a man/woman dont owe anything the opposite gender. No entilement and shi. Everything can happen.
We can never be entitled to another human being. This is the very simple flaw in their logic. When you feel entitled to another person, you are automatically wrong, and you can only sustain that belief by dehumanizing them and seeing them as property.
I mean, apparently the bar is even lower, right? There are plenty of horrible men in committed relationships who beat, cheat on, and berate their partners. Those guys are getting over the bar, aren’t they?
The bar is different for different men. We all know men with money and power not only get away with more in every circumstance, but women are willing to put up with more for access to the man's resources, clout, connections, etc. Just look at Huberman who got caught lying and simultaneous dating 6 women, one of the top comments on his ig post was a pretty young blonde woman asking if she could be #7 🤦♀️🤷♀️ Then you have the men with no looks, no wealth, no money, no resources who also want to treat women poorly but feel entitled to it because they still treat them better than the other men out there who would have treated them worse.
Why is the bar different for different people? I think that’s the crux of the issue, and the reason that so many people feel not good enough. The answer is pretty much that people are shallow, which isn’t a very satisfactory answer for anybody. I think what you’re misrepresenting is that lonely men want to treat women poorly. Sure, those men do exist, but pretending that there aren’t lonely men who want to treat all people well is odd.
I think what you are misundertanding is there are men who set the bar low, but get away with it due to privilege. There are men without that privileged who see the bar set low and think by raising the bar slightly above where the other men set it they are entitled to the women the other men have or the women of their choosing. Asking why Huberman can cheat on 6 women and women still throw themselves at him as opposed to regular 40k income a year Joe down the block seems to denote a lack of understanding of how real life works. Nowhere did I mention lonely or use that term at all, what projection is this? Are you a guy because your comment history seems to suggest so?
Wouldn’t it be the women choosing those men who are setting the bar? I don’t see why it’s objectionable to call out the abuse of privilege and the common acceptance of it. Like, I understand your points, but you seem to be upset with the people who call out shitty actions instead of the people acting shitty and the people accepting it. How else would you describe these men other than lonely?
1st of all Thank You for going to the women should "pick better" argument. Good because women are exiting the market place and not picking at all see Korea's 4B movement and men ARE STILL UPSET. Instead of asking shitty men to be better blame the women picking them. GOOD, now many are choosing not to pick at all. The men are lonely because they choose to be. These men cannot hangout with other men? Cannot just be friends with women? PLEASE spare us these falsehoods, most of those "lonely" men are just crying about their lack of access to sex. Plenty of non sexual, non romantic companionship if they wanted it Go volunteer at nursing home and build relationships with lonely old folks, nope they only want it with hot young women 🙄
I think each person sets the bar for what they will accept in a relationship, right? It’s not their potential suitors setting the bar, the suitors are the ones who have to clear the bar or fail to, right? I do think shitty men should be better, I’m not sure what indicated otherwise. Unfortunately, shitty men are enabled by society and incentivized to continue acting shitty. One of these incentives is attracting women who will accept shittiness for whatever reason, maybe out of desperation, or their own mutual shittiness. I think it’s fair to criticize these shitty men, and also to criticize those around them who accept them and enable them. I don’t see any issue with women choosing to be single or staying away from men, again not sure if I indicated that or not. Fair point about the difference between abject loneliness and the desire for intimacy. Is there a better word to describe them? I don’t think incel is quite right, even ignoring the baggage of the term, because many people can get casual sex, but are unable to find love or intimacy. Still, is it wrong of those people to desire to love and to be loved? There are emotional needs that can’t be fulfilled through community or platonic friendship.
Women seem to be getting those emotional needs fulfilled through community or platonic friendship, how interesting that "men" can't. Do you hear posts about an epidemic of women loneliness? Good, if the men don't want to be lonely and women should pick better then women won't pick the loser men until they better themselves. Also many women can get casual sex easily, nowhere near as easy for the average man.
Are they? I don’t think it’s about men and women inherently having different emotional needs, I think it’s more that an intimate partner is able to fulfill them to a different degree than a close friend or family. Would you argue that a single person is capable of the same emotional sharing and connection that a married couple of many years is? I just don’t think that’s possible. And yes, I do hear about an epidemic of lonely young people. Men and women. I think the numbers do skew towards men being ‘lonelier’, but it’s overwhelmingly a young person thing.
Bro can you get off this sub if you are not going to emphasize it's crazy you talk about emotional sharing of a married couple, when another women just posted on this sub her husband of many years left her and the two year old for another women. For the majority of women, it is better to be alone than to be with bad or abusive men. It is a lot less the case for men, most of them still get sex, chores etc out of it and the odds of dying by the hands of your partner are nowhere near as high for women as it is for men. Literally another post on here put today about news article whee a dancer who was strangled to death by her bf during sex. She was prob better off alone than being with him. The fact you are here and tone deaf to women's complaints are crazy. The ratio of men being unalived by their partners are nowhere near the numbers of women being unalived by their male partners. All this and you go off emotional need when there are women with small children constantly being cheated on and men leaving mistresses for. Not sure about you but I would rather be alive and healthy and mentally well than put up with subpar and or abusive men who may potentially end the life I love living.
this subreddit is about women, isn't it?
Yes, but it is also open to participation by men.
Women seem to prefer a man who will hit them to one who'll take off. "I can get under your skin and you'll hit me for it," seems to beat, "I can't get under your skin because you just don't care," and, "If I get under your skin you'll walk out." The commitment to the relationship seems to make a difference.