This is why we need way better leave policies. My husband's job has specified in the contract that he can't use his sick leave to care for a sick relative, including a child. I also think that both parents need paid parental leave after a birth or adoption. If the assumption that women are the only ones taking time off when kids are born is removed because both parents get equal time off, I think things would eventually start to look really different.
It’s built on the backs of working and non working women. Working doesn’t exempt women from caretaking, at least where I am. My country has made women into the social safety net, and trust me when I say it damages your career over time.
On the unpaid labor of (mostly female) household managers. They absolutely work. They just aren't given any benefits- like a salary, leave, set hours, health insurance, or retirement plans.
Hey- there's an idea: pay caretakers and homemakers for their labor as a sort of ease in to UBI and universal health coverage. Frame it as a matter of labor rights to recognize that this is, indeed, work- which deserves compensation.
I read a murder mystery set in the future, and at-home spouses and parents were required by the government to be paid by their working spouse or the child’s other parent.
Huh. Do you remember the title?
I was thinking more government-funded payments- because the work they do (childrearing and care, eldercare, sanitation, organization, etc.) is absolutely to the benefit of society at large.
Requiring the employed spouse to pay an at-home spouse doesn't recognize that the at-home labor has benefits beyond the home- though it would, I suppose, make it easier for at-home spouses to maintain employment histories, etc. Did the book mention whether they had to pay taxes on this spouse-to-spouse income (on top of whatever income tax the employed spouse paid)? Because I'm cynical enough to see it as an effort to double-dip on household income!
Capitalism is built on the backs of slavery. It cannot be sustained without it. There has to be groups of people that either don't get paid at all or get paid meager amounts within capitalism. There has to a be ruling class of wealthy elites.
wtf?! This is honestly disrespectful to men and women both. Assuming that it’s the woman’s job, but also assuming that men are incapable of being caretakers. That is so messed up.
the us sucks, and i’m an american 🫤 we are not a democracy, we’re a capitalism; this country was established upon the premise of freedom, but the ‘…for me, not for thee’ was established at our inception, as the only people who counted as people were rich, business/property/people-owning *men*, and our current ‘constitutionalists’ desire nothing more than to return us to that state; we rank somewhere like 37th in education; we are the *only* wealthy, supposedly advanced country without universal healthcare; we don’t have paid family leave, paid childcare, college, or anything in between; any assistance granted requires a gauntlet of humiliation to prove poverty; there are virtually zero roads out of poverty, because no savings are allowed when receiving aid or social security, so there is no path to saving for education or a vehicle or home; our richie riches and elected officials are bemoaning our falling birth rate, while legislating the bejeesus out of our uterii, without implementing any policies to encourage birth rates.
they can bite my whole entire ass!
America is a scam. I say that as a 72 year old who has lived here all my life. America is a country designed to extract money from its people, it has no other purpose or function other than to start wars because that’s a real boost to the economy.
We recommend puppies and kittens stay with their moms & siblings until 12 weeks old to develop properly. American women are lucky to get 6-8 weeks with a newborn human!
I’m in Canada, other than 3 months worth (which both parents can take concurrently), the other 9-15 months (depending which you take) can be broken up however between the parents. Only caveat is can’t take broken time, so like the dad can’t take the first 3 months, back to work for 6, then another 3 months off or whatever, needs to be in one chunk
I'm also in Canada and currently on maternity leave. I'm well aware of how it works. Either parent being able to take the time is vastly different from both parents getting time that doesn't cut into the other parent's time. I'm breastfeeding; do you really think I'm going to want to go back to work and leave my husband to take care of our kid when that's a biological process he's just not capable of? If we both got equal time off without the other person getting less time as a result, I'd be thrilled. But, as it stands, I'm the one taking the bulk of the time off while he keeps working. Doing anything different is the exception. People still assume that childcare responsibilities will fall to women.
It’d be so nice if leave laws allowed both parents to do a more flexible arrangement, like part time.
Being stuck at home full time can be really isolating. Being full time away from the baby’s not the best for getting bonding time or sleeping time in.
For knowledge workers, it’s not ideal for employer or employee to have the hard cutoff.
While I like doing enough cross training that people can manage without me temporarily, I also like having a specialized skill or two. It keeps the layoffs away.
I am guessing that you've seen what I've seen, that you can still knowledge-share your specialized skill, without reducing your retentionness. I'm a SME, and have shared a ton of knowledge, while still being the point of contact for that thing I do.
Yeah, I definitely like to knowledge share enough that anyone on the team can take off a week or two without an issue.
I do still like to be contacted before people get deep into my most breakable tools. So, I’d really appreciate the option to taper back into working even before I am ready to be back full time.
I went on multi month leave at one point, and unfortunately the rules were extremely specific. They couldn’t call me at all. As soon as they started admitting on paper that I was working, that leave would be over. That meant I had to document every skill and ensure every favorite client was handed off.
My country legally allows 1 year of leave for the birth of a child. This can be split between the parents.
My company also allows for Sick/family responsibility leave, which is 5 days a year. We also get 10 personal days. and 4 weeks vacation. this is on-top of the stat holidays.
Some do get it, but America is FUBAR
I'm saying *each* parent should get a year and that the time can't be split/given to the other parent. When leave can be taken by one parent or the other, women will be the ones taking it 99.9 percent of the time. I'm in Canada and we get up to 18 months split between parents. I'm off on leave and my husband is working, just like every other set of parents I know.
I'm also in Canada and it's gone up to 18! That's awesome.
When we had our kid, it was only a year. I took off as much time as I could at the time. The company I worked for at the time wasn't super happy with leaving for multiple months. I recommend for any parent to take the time! Be with your family that's more important than any work. And it will always be there when you get back.
We have to shift the collective culture. Families are important for all members. Not just the Mother.
It's the same pay either way (55 percent of your income for 12 months and 33 percent of your income for 18 months), so a lot of people still opt for 12 months since 18 months basically means 6 are unpaid, but at least your job is still protected.
Edit: this was Trudeau's doing. Between that and $10/day daycare, which has been fully implemented in my province (plus down to $5/day for the final year before kindergarten), it was doable for my husband and I to plan our family the way we wanted.
Is that the only restriction on Paid Time Off? If so, yes, they are screwing over single parents (I was one of a team of three, a team member was a single parent so I learned from him) and partners of parents.
If they wrote in other restrictions, it was to make leave hard to use so as to limit their liability, or to create cause for dismissing unwanted employees.
I actually don't know. As far as I know it's the only restriction on sick leave specifically, other than not being able to use sick leave for vacations and stuff (duh). He gets some family leave, and vacation time so it's not like he has no time that he can use to take off for our sick kids, but family leave has run out incredibly quickly with kids in daycare and such and he uses the vast majority of his vacation time to stay home with our sick kids so we never actually have any vacation time. I'm on maternity leave right now but when I'm working, it's very difficult for me to take time off on short notice because I teach and I still have to work even when I take the day off (finding my own sub, switching around my plans for the day, being available to the sub to answer questions or help, etc). Also I get hardly any sick or vacation time and my husband gets a fair bit more than me. We're fortunate to have the privileges we have, but he shouldn't be restricted from staying home with our kids with fevers because he ran out of vacation time.
I hear you about privilege. I'm both trying to learn to see mine and to learn how to use it to pay it forward. On the other hand, it's not like I'm the 1% and all my problems are how to protect my privilege and wealth.
I'm aghast that you have to find your own sub. I've sometimes been the parent who used sick time to be home, or because I was at urgent care with a child until something AM and wasn't going in to the office fighting sleep. So I know what home with a sick child is like and don't know how you are expected to juggle fine china and bowling balls.
My partner also gets too little vacation time for our grown up family. She is happy where she is at, so change for growth isn't what she wants. It's what I'd wish for, but...
Even with equal leave for both Men and Women, if the corporate culture doesn't encourage their male employees to use it for those reason, then it'll still be a problem. My company has done a good job of encouraging fathers to take their parental leave and it helps but father still get asked how much of their parental leave they are taking.
What does having a sexist boss have to do with the man you have children with? I'm married to the amazing father of my children who puts in as much work as I do, if not more, but I have been on parental leave for both our children. I'm not going to go through the impossible hassle of breastfeeding and going back to work (or opting for formula when I don't need or want to do that) so my husband can stay home. He would love to stay home but between biological facts and the financial situation of losing too much income, the only thing that made sense was me staying home by myself. We weren't going to split the time in half to both stay home because our priority is keeping our kids home as long as possible before they have to go to daycare. You tell me if you have a better solution for me within the current framework.
when my (now former) mil asked me where my son was, and i replied ‘with his dad’ she asked ‘oh, he’s babysitting?!’ i replied ‘no, you don’t babysit *your own child* - this is the mentality we’re up against, that a male parenting his child is ‘babysitting’ - please, never miss an opportunity to remind/educate someone that parenting is *not* babysitting
My Oma would say similar, my Mom worked retail so lots of evenings, my dad was 9-5 so he did the majority of the after school stuff….dinner, homework, sports, bedtime routine….she would always ask “but who is gonna feed the kids?!?!” My mom dead pan “their father?” lol
It’s funny, I wound up in such a similar marriage. No kids, but my MIL hates that I work, she thinks I should be home looking after him. Doing what? Not a clue lol He’s quick to put her in her place though when she starts up lol
seriously, does he need a nanny? a chef? housekeeper? all of those are hirable positions that women have been expected to do for free for virtually *ever*, but it doesn’t have to be that way anymore 😁🎉
Yes, OP should tell her boyfriend in that case if they have children she’ll be expecting him to take time off for their childcare so she can protect her career
Exactly. THANK YOU.
This is why I’m not having kids.
I’m not going to be the only one doing all the work ever. At any point.
I want to enjoy life & make life better.
most states do not give men paternity leave. if they do it is some crappy 2 weeks. only very few states like MA give men equal paternity leave. I (man) took 3 months off when my wifes maternity leave just about ended (small overlap to get used to the system/process). If it was made federal that men got just as much time off for a child, then this would not be an issue.
Yes, in a perfect world childcare should be split evenly between parents. But there is a biological reality that women do things that men cannot do (i.e. pregnancy and breastfeeding). This is the reason for discrimination against women, and the reason why women need special legal protection against workplace discrimination.
I also wonder if there's a way to expose those companies for their sexism as well, although it would probably be difficult to do but it would be worth it.
Here just the first 3 months, after that the next 9-15 months can be split however the parents like (one friend takes the 3 months, her husband takes the other 15 cause she makes way more & he’s the better SAHP)
Fun fact, being oblivious and being sexist are not mutually exclusive. Sexism out of ignorance is still sexism.
The question now is if he’s going to be cognizant enough to recognize that and change.
It's like taxes: you don't get excused from filing them incorrectly just because you don't know what you're doing.
We can give you a bit of leeway to amend errors, but we'll have a problem if you keep doing it.
But how could this man possibly know?! The closure of public libraries makes learning about topics like diversity, equal parenting and illegal discrimination and very difficult nowadays.
It's definitely sexist, but putting the blame on him or his previous employer isn't quite right. The people to blame are the politicians leaving sexist legislation in place.
Obviously, both parents will wind up taking time off from work due to issues with childcare, their kid being sick, or other child related issues. That isn't a gendered thing, it's a parent thing, and I've seen plenty of fathers take time off for the same reason (one wound up eventually just quitting as his wife made more than him and the childcare costs meant he was working for practically no extra household income).
Maternity leave is different. Men & women are both equally likely to just not have kids, so there's no advantage on either side there. But if they do choose to have kids, in almost all instances, she takes a lot longer off work to bond with her kid than he does. Even in countries where you can opt to split it, the mother will always take the majority because she's the one recovering, and men can't breastfeed. It legally adds an objective, artificial advantage to hiring men over women in order to avoid things like the additional cost of maternity cover. When the dad is off for two weeks and mum is off for a year, it's a big difference in cost for the company. It's a bit like how if the government provided tax breaks for having women work there, you'd expect companies to prioritise hiring women because they only care about the bottom line.
The pretty simple and fairly obvious solution would be to increase paternity leave while leaving maternity leave untouched. It'd be better for men, as they'd get a chance to bond with their child. It'd be better for women, as they'd have more support rather than being stuck at home with a kid, while recovering from a medical procedure, with the dad at work most of the time he's awake. And, it'd completely remove any advantages when it comes to hiring based on gender, removing the incentive for companies to implement sexist policy.
That's before you get into the potential long-term societal benefits, with it being a step in the right direction away from the notion that children are a women's issue.
“He’s not sexist just really oblivious”
Girl. He’s not oblivious, he lacks empathy, and ignorance is not an excuse for misogyny. You shouldn’t have to explain to a grown man why it’s not okay to discriminate against women. If you find yourself having to do this it means that man doesn’t give a shit about women’s issues and the struggles we face. If he cared he would educate himself and you wouldn’t have to explain it. He chooses not to. Do with that what you will. I wouldn’t choose to be in a relationship with someone like this. If my boyfriend said things like this I would leave him because it’s not my job to educate ignorant men on how to be decent people.
Yeah I mean this was 2+2=4, not differential equations. If he lacks the critical thinking skills to see how this is systemic discrimination and WHY IT IS BAD - just god almighty do not procreate with this person.
He is sexist 🫢 being “oblivious” isn’t an excuse. He’s a grown man. Do you think he’d pass over hiring a woman if he was in a position of authority? For that woman, would it matter if he acknowledged he was prejudiced against women? Does that change the truth?
This has me seeeeeeeeeeeeeething. It’s right in front of their fuxking faces and they still choose to intentionally participate in misogyny and sexism.
>My boyfriend, was also super casual about it too, didn't see it as an issue (he's not sexist just really oblivious).
These days, I'm not sure there's a difference, sorry. There's more than enough awareness about these issues by now, and at a certain point obliviousness ceases to be an excuse.
Yeah, if you already feel pressured to add in an added “but he isn’t sexist” “but they aren’t racist” “but they aren’t homophobic” you already know the action you described prior was exactly that.
I really believe the people who do stuff like this have a disconnect where they believe only bad people are racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. Their loved one isn’t bad, so of course they can’t be racist or sexist or homophobic. They just say things that sound an awful lot like what a racist or a sexist or a homophobe might say. In reality, Avenue Q had it right with the song “Everyone’s a little bit racist”. The good people are the ones who actively fight against that and try to learn and grow.
I find that claiming to not have any biases is a great predictor that someone is about to be one of the most biased of all, heh. As you said, "everyone's a little bit racist," and everything else - bias is a fundamental part of how human brains work. The trick is to be aware of your biases and monitor your actions.
I think it's safe to assume they're all sexist... I mean I am sexist toward men after forty years of their nonsense. My new husband who is the most feminist man I have ever met, still has some of the misogyny that came from his culture. Like all prejudices they can only exist when you don't really think about it, it's emotional. Any time he stops to think of things logically he's his normal woman-respecting self.
I'm pretty sure the men who want "big families" are the type that generally assume they will have the excuse not to have to do as much because that was generally how society is set up.
They complain about having to work to "support the family", but they seem to like the excuse not to have to spend time with their family. They also are the type to see a wife and kids as property.
Newsflash - he is sexist, he just doesn't realise it. He had unconscious biases against women being in positions of power. And has the privilege of it not affecting him so he doesn't care.
I am a welder, and the amount of horrible interviews was almost all of them. Having a bunch of random men grilling me with illegal questions is awful. Normally the interviews went something like this. Are you pregnant? Are you planning on getting pregnant.? Are you married? Do you have a boyfriend? I even was asked if I was lesbian once.
I've answered "I hate children" to one of those. Not that I literally do (kids can be annoying and I don't want them in my home, that's all) but wanted to see if they like that answer. They seemed to be shocked and put off, ironically. But isn't this what their perfect childfree employee would say lol.
And it's mostly middle aged ppl with families of their own who ask those questions, so I think hearing someone doesn't like or want kids at all is like a punch to the gut for them.
It's quite widespread in Germany unfortunately, where you can't record anyone without their consent so you're basically alone in trying to prove they asked you an illegal question. It's so common that every single piece of job interview advice I've come across tells you that you're allowed to lie about family questions because they're illegal anyway. It's been illegal for 20+ years and ppl still ask, bc nobody ever gets sued since you can't prove it in court. Literally the only way to deal with this seems to be lying.
It's crazy, the same men who say and do shit like this also refuse to admit the wage gap is real. They're literally saying they prefer men over women because of how gendered non-work related obligations are. Like, they fully acknowledge how women are held back in the workforce. Too bad they still think the answer is to simply blame women instead of looking inward.
Well your bf hung his whole ass out there for you to see. If you haven’t already had a child with him, you’ve just had a preview of exactly how he’ll treat you as his private incubator - everything will be entirely your responsibility and he’s never taking a damn second off work to “help”.
Please reconsider having children with this giant misogynist.
Remember these little stories when people handwring over low birth rates and high divorce rates. You want them to improve? Fix *this* shit (instead of just yelling at women for not dating you).
It's men not doing their share at home when both have careers that leads to this pattern and recognition of it by decision-makers. Then it affects all women of childbearing age, whether they are mothers or not. No matter what equality women gain access to, men don't step up in typical "women's" spheres so just just has twice as much to do, sucks all around.
Story time:
My dad hired a female ceo because he believes the future is female.
He would say he is a feminist.
When he hires any female employee, he asks about their future pregnancy plans.
I explained that if he is in fact a feminist he can't ask that question.
He said how when he hired his female
CEO he asked her, and she understands why. It's so that he doesn't have someone join, train them, and then they need time off for mat leave.
I explained that I understood why he asked, and that her pretending to be ok with the question, doesn't make it right. He said that I don't get to define what being a feminist is. He's a feminist because he believes in women. Asking that question has nothing to do with them being women. Even though he doesn't ask it to his males.
He said he hates when I say he's not a feminist because he's better than 9/10 men.
I told him that's nothing to brag about. The bar for men is a tripping hazard in hell.
He thought that was hysterical.
The patriarchy is real and exhausting.
Holy shit.
No offense to you, but your dad needs to get educated by an employment lawyer wielding a five pound legal treatise.
Asking about a female candidate’s pregnancy plans has been illegal for at least 3+ decades (the one time it was asked of me) and likely far longer. I hope every woman he asks that reports that.
It's the same energy as "he's not unhelpful, just really oblivious how to push the start button on a washing machine. Ofc he poured bleach in my clothing on accident. Men are so clueless haha, amirite"
Exactly!! It’s 2024 ignorance is not an excuse. I’m also just over women endlessly defending their husbands sexist thoughts and behaviors. The reality is that pretty all men are sexist to some degree. Just because we date them doesn’t mean they aren’t sexist. So let’s stop defending our boyfriends and husbands and start confidently letting them know it’s not ok. It doesn’t automatically mean they’re bad people or that they can’t be educated. But we have to call them out.
you have no idea! men get the ‘marriage bonus’ - increase in pay, benefits; promotions for ‘the provider’ - while women get docked for the exact same thing. men get raises/increase in pay/benefits/opportunities while women (walking fucking incubators that we are 😑) get docked. of course, because the majority of the child rearing falls on women - how many men are the primary contact for their children’s schools/activities/etc al?
yeah, fuck the patriarchy, and their double standards!
Okay why does he act like men don’t have paternity leave? And he just slammed all the childcare on the working woman (in a two parent/working household).
Why are you making excuses for him? Unless he’s a complete imbecile he knows he’s being sexist. He just doesn’t care.
If he’s in the US does he realize that they were breaking the law?
>So like how many jobs are women losing out to men just because of asshole managers like that.
Better question is how many billions are companies leaving on the table by expecting their employees to be organic machines and not actual human beings?
This is one of several reasons why I advocate for mandatory, paid, gender neutral parental leave - at least for a month, whether adopting or giving birth.
There’s no logicing people about this. They will always generalize as long as women take off more time on average when bringing a new child into the home. And with all the other benefits to the child and parent with mandatory *paid* leave, it’s a no brainer to me.
On paper, yes. But I was canned after disclosing my pregnancy to my boss and because it was a small business with fewer than 50 employees (can’t remember the exact number but there’s a minimum number needed for certain labor protections to apply), it was totally legal. This was 10 years ago so not even close to 1960.
Many years ago I had just had my 4th kid in a span of 5 years. My industry was primarily men, I was one of two women in 800 employees. One day, a particularly beastly man demanded to know why the women were given so much time off. I say beastly because he refused to marry his babies (8 kids) mamas because they would lose government assistance. I replied with I have kids who need doctor visits, school appointments, etc and my husband was often away due to his job. He had the audacity to say, that’s a moms JOB. I replied, then pay me for being a mom instead of doing this!
It's sexist and shitty and unironically why a lot of higher level positions have so few women under a certain age working in them, despite having men below said age in abundance.
Well that would dry my vaginal secretions for any man... But more importantly the number to the national Labor hotline for gender discrimination is 202-693-0106.
https://www.dol.gov/general/contact/contact-phone-topics
even the military give maternity leave with no issues, lol. I was on bedrest med leave in my last trimester and than 8 weeks off(normally 6 weeks but I had 2 weeks saved up)
This is a weirdly popular take in military and military-adjacent areas. My sister is retired Army and she said that not only did she hear it anytime someone got *near* the subject of women in combat positions, but that according to the numbers, male soldiers rack up more absentee time in the brig/drunk tank for drunken belligerent antics than women do on maternity leave. So in addition to being backwards and sexist, it’s not even facts!
Are you sure he's not sexist? I know you said boyfriend and not husband, but think if that's his mentality now, how would he respect your career aspirations if you became a mother?
Remind him to be careful who he admits that around as that would be grounds for a crazy expensive lawsuit if it isn't already.
Or, you could be really malicious and continue the conversation over email >:-)
If this is the US, that is literally illegal.
How is that not an immediate deal breaker for you?
> (he’s not sexist just really oblivious)
Internalized misogyny is still misogyny
In Spain we have compulsory paid maternity AND paternity leave just to avoid discrimination. This helps because:
- no gender gap in pregnancy
- helps with parenting equality
I have a business . Our leave for parents is equal time- parents need to be parents 50/50. And no one is penalized for their gender if they have to take time off either . It can be done by employers, they just don’t want to.
whenever I get into it with someone the retort is always very generic, "why should someone be allowed to leave a job and just waltz back into it no questions asked?"
oh I don't know, because it's their job and they haven't quit? Should people not be allowed regular vacation time anymore because they go away for some days, weeks, what have you, and then return no questions asked? clowns, all of 'em
Even though we know it's true, it's just infuriating. I'm infuriated for my friends who have and want kids, and infuriated for myself who also has to deal with this but is child free by choice.
Over the years I've found myself being more picky about the companies I work for. My current company has a generous PARENTAL leave policy, and my male coworkers time time off just as often as the women do. I've had women managers and directors and VPs, all of whom have kids. The men I work with are just as quick to WFH due to childcare reasons as the women.
And all at the same time I do not feel punished for not having kids, which has happened at some companies. Kids aren't treated as something that hurts or helps your career, they're just part of life for people.
I worked at a software company. They liked to boast about how well they treated the female employees. When I got pregnant, my lead let me go. A friend was a manager at the same company, and when he found out, he asked me to work in his group. I worked right up until the day I gave birth. Your boyfriend *does* need to tread lightly. So, I dealt with my asshole ex-lead by taking the slot in my friend’s group and dropping by the lab when I started to show, just to annoy the putz.
It just makes me so mad because it’s patriarchal socialization that places the onus of childcare on women but COINCIDENCE COINCIDENCE it negatively impacts women at work. Women brunting childcare is 100% manipulation to keep us out of leadership and the workforce. I can’t believe simpleton men can realize this. It’s so GRATING. 👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺
My ex husband had the same reasoning as to why there's a wage gap... the fucking lack of gratitude for our bringing life into their world is horrifying.
Sadly, despite it being illegal to discriminate against pregnant women/mothers/women in general, it happens all of the time. Employers won’t say it outright, but will “find a better candidate.” It happened to me when I was pregnant and it sucked. I’d reconsider if your BF is someone that you want to continue a relationship with. This kind of indifference misogyny is a HUGE red flag.
Damn, I'd be tempted to report that to the EEOC or call them out on social media or something, that's very much not good. That's systemic sexism in the workplace and fully illegal.
So just consider how much work you have to do to make a man like your boyfriend into not a misogynistic ass.
Then consider if you will still love a man after having to put that much emotional labor into him.
Then consider that he may leave you anyway after all that unpaid labor.
Not saying you need to dump him, just saying that you can't get any of the unpaid labor back.
I used to own a business - my (male) business (50/50) partner refused to agree to a hire I wanted because she was a woman, for this exact reason.
When I started the business, my dad told me the same thing - don't hire women because they need time off to have babies.
It's incredibly common I'm afraid.
Why are you making excuses for him? Unless he’s a complete imbecile he knows he’s being sexist. He just doesn’t care.
If he’s in the US does he realize that they were breaking the law?
This is why we need men to take parental leave as well. We will split the leave with my spouse this time so both are away 8months. He is head of a business unit in a very male dominant industry. Should teach a lesson there / set an example.
There was an Australian news article on the subject (because men can access parental leave if they're the primary caregiver in Australia), and I remember one instance of a boss saying to his male staff member, "Yeah, sure mate, you can take the leave, but can you tell everyone else here that you broke your back and were in hospital for six months or something?" because that was a more "manly" and normal thing for men to take time off work for.
Your boyfriend is ignorant AND sexist.
Our society is not designed for women to have children and a career. These are facts. The childcare falls to women 99% of the time.
It is true that other employees are expected to pick up the slack, often without additional compensation when the female employee is out for maternity leave or childcare reasons. This is not fair to them either. As a childfree woman I was often that person. My personal life and free time was deemed less important that that of parents.
I don't blame the mothers, I blame how society is structured. This is one of the main issues radical feminism addressed back in toe 1970s. Women are discriminated against not because we are "feminine" but because of our perceived or actual reproductive capacity.
I’m a manager. When people complain to me about how annoying it is that women leave jobs to have babies I say at least I get 9 months notice and they come back already trained.
It’s actually a much lesser cost to the business than people who quit, giving 2 weeks notice.
sorry op your boyfriend is sexist 🤷🏼♀️ refusing to think critically about stuff like this is a form of sexism, at a certain point ignorance is just proof of how he doesn't think of women as people with livelihoods in the same way that he thinks of men
And yet these children the women are going to bear are also the children of MEN. Men should be supportive of every aspect of pregnancy and childcare. They should be advocates of maternity/ paternity leave, family planning, birth control, of good daycare, of good salaries for childcare workers, of education and recreation programs for kids … etc etc etc. These are their children too! The responsibility and accountability of men are always left out of the reproduction discussion. I wonder why? 🤔
Assuming you are in the US that is completely illegal. It sucks that your boyfriend is not enough of an ally to have reported those managers for saying that. TBH, I am at a point in my life where I honestly wouldn't even bother with a man who wasn't incredulous at something like that much less didn't do anything about it.
>he's not sexist just really oblivious
Yes, he is sexist and the fact that you needed to specify this is very telling. The sooner you understand that men KNOW, they just DON'T CARE, the better.
I heard this from a manger back in the 90s when I was a nurse. This was a woman who was managing an ICU staffed almost exclusively by women in probably the most woman-dominated industry that exists, and she firmly believed that men were more qualified to do her own job than she was because a woman could potentially need to take time off for something related to parenthood or pregnancy.
EDIT: Thinking back on it, I should probably thank her. Her horrible bigotry was one of the last straws that broke my conservative back and turned me into the hyper-librul hippie that I am today.
I got job interview through a friendly acquaintance. Went to the interview, did great, they walked me around the office and I met the big boss and that seemed to go really well. Anyways I didn't get the job. My acquaintance told me the last 3 people in the spot had quit to be SAHM so they hired a guy this time. Was super frustrating. (And I never had any more kids but that's besides the point). Not something I could argue or complain about because outside of that comment from him, what proof would there be and it's not like I wanted to work for someone like that anyways.
If you have the time and/or gumption, please contact the EEOC (Equal Opportunity Employment Commission) to report this kind of thing. Even if it’s just hearsay/an anonymous tip, they can (and will) investigate claims of discrimination based on gender, marital status, pregnancy, etc.
This isn’t just morally abhorrent, it’s highly illegal. Even without naming specific names of employees, you can report a company or unit within a large corporation for EO violations or prejudiced hiring/advancement practices.
Source: hi it’s me, I’m Todd from HR
Growing up, my mom would tell me why she didn't want my dad to hire younger women because they want a family and they'd take leave (I truly believe that's the reason, not because she thinks he'd cheat)
Stressed me tf out once I finally got out of grad school and I was in that position and realized how fucked up it all is.
This is so enraging!
A couple of years ago my brother got a new manager, who decided my brother had to work until 7pm on Sundays, not 3pm. My brother was like, “can’t, I’m a single dad and I need to be home”. The manager just couldn’t get their head around a bloke doing childcare, especially a dad who has more custody than mum (god, the amount of every-other-weekend-dads is irritating and not at all helping women). And this manager was a woman. I was double annoyed about that.
Anyway, all that to say if my brother figured it out (and I know his situation was slightly more unusual) than other men can.
I was stunned about a year ago when one of my instructors starting complaining about their department's most recent hire getting pregnant and then complaining another instructor they hired a few years ago got pregnant right off the bat (even though that wasn't really true). I was very uncomfortable, and looking back, I wish I had said something.
that sounds illegal…. and quite frankly, proves how men feel comfortable saying sexist thingss in front of other men, who won’t call them out on it and won’t encourage any change in behaviour so long as they aren’t affected
ur bf IS sexist. a lot of sexism is born out of ignorance and men getting to be oblivious to sexism. same way white ppl say some generalizations about black ppl, not see any issue with it and then say they’re not racist. they think you need to be screaming the n word to be racist (and even then some ‘not racist white ppl’ will do that still). nobody likes to admit they’re privileged and prejudiced
it’s the same with men. they think sexism is only overt and that’s how they get away with treating us worse. feminism has fought for women’s rights in the workplace for this exact reason. it’s not legal in a lot of places to ask a woman if she’s pregnant because it leads to this issue (which clearly hasn’t stopped because of the work culture that your bf has actively participated in)
Make it personal. Ask him if that means he would suggest you not be hired somewhere or not be promoted because you’re a woman who might get pregnant. Let him think that through.
Your boyfriend sucks and is stupid to be this oblivious. I wouldn't have the patience for that kind of sexist bullshit and you shouldn't stand for it either
People forget that raising children is... well... A JOB ! YES ! IT IS A JOB ! Just like being a CEO, a cashier or whatever else, going throught pregnancy, giving birth and raising kids is a JOB that your country depends on but nobody wants to admit it. No matter what, you're making a future worker, and sadly humans are pretty much stupid and defensless for majority of their life, even after 18 yrs old they are still mostly kids. No matter if the kid is a future surgeon who saves lives or a janitor at school, it's a needed person. Women have to leave to give birth and care for a baby ? Yeah so basically they have to pause their one job to begin a different job. Men should also have paid leave, children need both parents at home. I'm not even going to begin that naturally for us raising our little monkey children was pretty much a whole community thing and not mom & dad thing, but the world has changed, and jobs need to understand that it's their duty to help. Especially what you said, it's a million dollar company, it can afford to invest into a future adult.
This thought is very common. But if you don’t have kids you get the burden of doing all the work for people with kids and you don’t get promoted because the moms and dads need it more than you. The world is garbage
Ethically and morally it's wrong with no justification whatsoever.
If it's corporate managers pulling this BS with a big parent company that's double terrible.
I dont agree with 'not hiring women'. Thats an unfair blanket assumption.
But I mean... honestly I kind of get not hiring women who want kids because yeah. They're going to want to leave early, or come in late, or give excuses as to why work isnt done. Or take 6 months to a year off in maternity leave, then come back distracted, then have to leave every few months for extended periods to deal with childcare. Then come back and wonder why suddenly they lack respect in the department.
It falls on the woman 9/10 times. Get better split leave.
capitalisme is not sexist per se. if the law were inversed ppl would frown upon hiring men all the same.
my wife work for allianz (insurance company) with mainly women and it was all fun and game for our first kid. but then she returned to work with more work to do than when she left because they took someone in during her leave but it took time to form her and for her to know all the in and out of her files.
then when she told them she was pregnat with our second (and last) there were some side eyes…
it seems its not that easy to replace someone for a limited time period with someone equally capable and ready to go.
would i be for equal legal parency leave? yes
but thats only the « legal » part like my wife got on leave 2 months prior to giving birth for medical reason (we would not be able to halve this between us obviously) and took 2 month more at then end (at 50% salary rate) for medical reason too. so all in all in my country even if we had 50/50 i would have took 3 months and my wife 3 + 2 + 2 so not 50/50.
when you think money wise it will always be more risk to hire a woman in her 20 to 35 without kids than a man in the same age grp.
will boss put money before any humans? mainly yes
I’d ask him why he thinks it’s always the woman’s responsibility to take the time off. Should be split between both parents
This is why we need way better leave policies. My husband's job has specified in the contract that he can't use his sick leave to care for a sick relative, including a child. I also think that both parents need paid parental leave after a birth or adoption. If the assumption that women are the only ones taking time off when kids are born is removed because both parents get equal time off, I think things would eventually start to look really different.
Sooo … why does the business bother hiring married men? Or men with siblings? Or parents? Androids are what they want.
or women who stay home. Capitalism is built on the backs of nonworking women.
Who are then told theyre lazy and don't do real work.
Until a man is asked to one iota of what a woman does daily. Then it's "work".
Weeeeellll actually it's a "favor" to the woman.
It’s built on the backs of working and non working women. Working doesn’t exempt women from caretaking, at least where I am. My country has made women into the social safety net, and trust me when I say it damages your career over time.
On the unpaid labor of (mostly female) household managers. They absolutely work. They just aren't given any benefits- like a salary, leave, set hours, health insurance, or retirement plans. Hey- there's an idea: pay caretakers and homemakers for their labor as a sort of ease in to UBI and universal health coverage. Frame it as a matter of labor rights to recognize that this is, indeed, work- which deserves compensation.
I read a murder mystery set in the future, and at-home spouses and parents were required by the government to be paid by their working spouse or the child’s other parent.
Huh. Do you remember the title? I was thinking more government-funded payments- because the work they do (childrearing and care, eldercare, sanitation, organization, etc.) is absolutely to the benefit of society at large. Requiring the employed spouse to pay an at-home spouse doesn't recognize that the at-home labor has benefits beyond the home- though it would, I suppose, make it easier for at-home spouses to maintain employment histories, etc. Did the book mention whether they had to pay taxes on this spouse-to-spouse income (on top of whatever income tax the employed spouse paid)? Because I'm cynical enough to see it as an effort to double-dip on household income!
I don’t remember, sorry.
Capitalism is built on the backs of slavery. It cannot be sustained without it. There has to be groups of people that either don't get paid at all or get paid meager amounts within capitalism. There has to a be ruling class of wealthy elites.
Because historically men are likely to leave family responsibility to women.
Oh don't worry, it's the women in his life's responsibility to care for sick family members! More reason not hire women! /s
And….they’re going to get them…eventually🫣
wtf?! This is honestly disrespectful to men and women both. Assuming that it’s the woman’s job, but also assuming that men are incapable of being caretakers. That is so messed up.
the us sucks, and i’m an american 🫤 we are not a democracy, we’re a capitalism; this country was established upon the premise of freedom, but the ‘…for me, not for thee’ was established at our inception, as the only people who counted as people were rich, business/property/people-owning *men*, and our current ‘constitutionalists’ desire nothing more than to return us to that state; we rank somewhere like 37th in education; we are the *only* wealthy, supposedly advanced country without universal healthcare; we don’t have paid family leave, paid childcare, college, or anything in between; any assistance granted requires a gauntlet of humiliation to prove poverty; there are virtually zero roads out of poverty, because no savings are allowed when receiving aid or social security, so there is no path to saving for education or a vehicle or home; our richie riches and elected officials are bemoaning our falling birth rate, while legislating the bejeesus out of our uterii, without implementing any policies to encourage birth rates. they can bite my whole entire ass!
America is a scam. I say that as a 72 year old who has lived here all my life. America is a country designed to extract money from its people, it has no other purpose or function other than to start wars because that’s a real boost to the economy.
We recommend puppies and kittens stay with their moms & siblings until 12 weeks old to develop properly. American women are lucky to get 6-8 weeks with a newborn human!
I’m in Canada, other than 3 months worth (which both parents can take concurrently), the other 9-15 months (depending which you take) can be broken up however between the parents. Only caveat is can’t take broken time, so like the dad can’t take the first 3 months, back to work for 6, then another 3 months off or whatever, needs to be in one chunk
I'm also in Canada and currently on maternity leave. I'm well aware of how it works. Either parent being able to take the time is vastly different from both parents getting time that doesn't cut into the other parent's time. I'm breastfeeding; do you really think I'm going to want to go back to work and leave my husband to take care of our kid when that's a biological process he's just not capable of? If we both got equal time off without the other person getting less time as a result, I'd be thrilled. But, as it stands, I'm the one taking the bulk of the time off while he keeps working. Doing anything different is the exception. People still assume that childcare responsibilities will fall to women.
It’d be so nice if leave laws allowed both parents to do a more flexible arrangement, like part time. Being stuck at home full time can be really isolating. Being full time away from the baby’s not the best for getting bonding time or sleeping time in. For knowledge workers, it’s not ideal for employer or employee to have the hard cutoff. While I like doing enough cross training that people can manage without me temporarily, I also like having a specialized skill or two. It keeps the layoffs away.
I am guessing that you've seen what I've seen, that you can still knowledge-share your specialized skill, without reducing your retentionness. I'm a SME, and have shared a ton of knowledge, while still being the point of contact for that thing I do.
Yeah, I definitely like to knowledge share enough that anyone on the team can take off a week or two without an issue. I do still like to be contacted before people get deep into my most breakable tools. So, I’d really appreciate the option to taper back into working even before I am ready to be back full time. I went on multi month leave at one point, and unfortunately the rules were extremely specific. They couldn’t call me at all. As soon as they started admitting on paper that I was working, that leave would be over. That meant I had to document every skill and ensure every favorite client was handed off.
Jesus that's fucked up. I hope for your husband's sake he finds a better job.
My country legally allows 1 year of leave for the birth of a child. This can be split between the parents. My company also allows for Sick/family responsibility leave, which is 5 days a year. We also get 10 personal days. and 4 weeks vacation. this is on-top of the stat holidays. Some do get it, but America is FUBAR
I'm saying *each* parent should get a year and that the time can't be split/given to the other parent. When leave can be taken by one parent or the other, women will be the ones taking it 99.9 percent of the time. I'm in Canada and we get up to 18 months split between parents. I'm off on leave and my husband is working, just like every other set of parents I know.
I'm also in Canada and it's gone up to 18! That's awesome. When we had our kid, it was only a year. I took off as much time as I could at the time. The company I worked for at the time wasn't super happy with leaving for multiple months. I recommend for any parent to take the time! Be with your family that's more important than any work. And it will always be there when you get back. We have to shift the collective culture. Families are important for all members. Not just the Mother.
It's the same pay either way (55 percent of your income for 12 months and 33 percent of your income for 18 months), so a lot of people still opt for 12 months since 18 months basically means 6 are unpaid, but at least your job is still protected. Edit: this was Trudeau's doing. Between that and $10/day daycare, which has been fully implemented in my province (plus down to $5/day for the final year before kindergarten), it was doable for my husband and I to plan our family the way we wanted.
Where is this? If the USA, is it a business with less than 50 employees?
Nope, this is a job for the Canadian federal government.
Is that the only restriction on Paid Time Off? If so, yes, they are screwing over single parents (I was one of a team of three, a team member was a single parent so I learned from him) and partners of parents. If they wrote in other restrictions, it was to make leave hard to use so as to limit their liability, or to create cause for dismissing unwanted employees.
I actually don't know. As far as I know it's the only restriction on sick leave specifically, other than not being able to use sick leave for vacations and stuff (duh). He gets some family leave, and vacation time so it's not like he has no time that he can use to take off for our sick kids, but family leave has run out incredibly quickly with kids in daycare and such and he uses the vast majority of his vacation time to stay home with our sick kids so we never actually have any vacation time. I'm on maternity leave right now but when I'm working, it's very difficult for me to take time off on short notice because I teach and I still have to work even when I take the day off (finding my own sub, switching around my plans for the day, being available to the sub to answer questions or help, etc). Also I get hardly any sick or vacation time and my husband gets a fair bit more than me. We're fortunate to have the privileges we have, but he shouldn't be restricted from staying home with our kids with fevers because he ran out of vacation time.
I hear you about privilege. I'm both trying to learn to see mine and to learn how to use it to pay it forward. On the other hand, it's not like I'm the 1% and all my problems are how to protect my privilege and wealth. I'm aghast that you have to find your own sub. I've sometimes been the parent who used sick time to be home, or because I was at urgent care with a child until something AM and wasn't going in to the office fighting sleep. So I know what home with a sick child is like and don't know how you are expected to juggle fine china and bowling balls. My partner also gets too little vacation time for our grown up family. She is happy where she is at, so change for growth isn't what she wants. It's what I'd wish for, but...
Even with equal leave for both Men and Women, if the corporate culture doesn't encourage their male employees to use it for those reason, then it'll still be a problem. My company has done a good job of encouraging fathers to take their parental leave and it helps but father still get asked how much of their parental leave they are taking.
Having it available is a start. Eventually the culture will shift to men using it more.
Your right. There are stages even if we want the end goal today.
This is why we need to stop indulging sexist men by staying in relationships with them.
What does having a sexist boss have to do with the man you have children with? I'm married to the amazing father of my children who puts in as much work as I do, if not more, but I have been on parental leave for both our children. I'm not going to go through the impossible hassle of breastfeeding and going back to work (or opting for formula when I don't need or want to do that) so my husband can stay home. He would love to stay home but between biological facts and the financial situation of losing too much income, the only thing that made sense was me staying home by myself. We weren't going to split the time in half to both stay home because our priority is keeping our kids home as long as possible before they have to go to daycare. You tell me if you have a better solution for me within the current framework.
when my (now former) mil asked me where my son was, and i replied ‘with his dad’ she asked ‘oh, he’s babysitting?!’ i replied ‘no, you don’t babysit *your own child* - this is the mentality we’re up against, that a male parenting his child is ‘babysitting’ - please, never miss an opportunity to remind/educate someone that parenting is *not* babysitting
My Oma would say similar, my Mom worked retail so lots of evenings, my dad was 9-5 so he did the majority of the after school stuff….dinner, homework, sports, bedtime routine….she would always ask “but who is gonna feed the kids?!?!” My mom dead pan “their father?” lol It’s funny, I wound up in such a similar marriage. No kids, but my MIL hates that I work, she thinks I should be home looking after him. Doing what? Not a clue lol He’s quick to put her in her place though when she starts up lol
seriously, does he need a nanny? a chef? housekeeper? all of those are hirable positions that women have been expected to do for free for virtually *ever*, but it doesn’t have to be that way anymore 😁🎉
Yes, OP should tell her boyfriend in that case if they have children she’ll be expecting him to take time off for their childcare so she can protect her career
I mean sure, but I'd ask him if he agrees that men shouldn't get paternal leave.
Why else do you think so many put more effort into being someone you wouldn't leave a kid with than being someone you could leave a kid with?
Exactly. THANK YOU. This is why I’m not having kids. I’m not going to be the only one doing all the work ever. At any point. I want to enjoy life & make life better.
most states do not give men paternity leave. if they do it is some crappy 2 weeks. only very few states like MA give men equal paternity leave. I (man) took 3 months off when my wifes maternity leave just about ended (small overlap to get used to the system/process). If it was made federal that men got just as much time off for a child, then this would not be an issue.
One of my senior coworkers is parceling out his new parent leave a week or two at a time, which is really cool.
Nordic countries use the model that the child has the right to bond with both parents.
Yes, in a perfect world childcare should be split evenly between parents. But there is a biological reality that women do things that men cannot do (i.e. pregnancy and breastfeeding). This is the reason for discrimination against women, and the reason why women need special legal protection against workplace discrimination.
I also wonder if there's a way to expose those companies for their sexism as well, although it would probably be difficult to do but it would be worth it.
I thought it was for recovery from giving birth and breastfeeding, right?
Here just the first 3 months, after that the next 9-15 months can be split however the parents like (one friend takes the 3 months, her husband takes the other 15 cause she makes way more & he’s the better SAHP)
"Not sexist", 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.
That part genuinely made me cackle! We'll never be free 😭
He's not sexist, he just agrees with sexists.
OMG you made my day already, I laughed so hard at this.
Fun fact, being oblivious and being sexist are not mutually exclusive. Sexism out of ignorance is still sexism. The question now is if he’s going to be cognizant enough to recognize that and change.
It's like taxes: you don't get excused from filing them incorrectly just because you don't know what you're doing. We can give you a bit of leeway to amend errors, but we'll have a problem if you keep doing it.
But how could this man possibly know?! The closure of public libraries makes learning about topics like diversity, equal parenting and illegal discrimination and very difficult nowadays.
It's definitely sexist, but putting the blame on him or his previous employer isn't quite right. The people to blame are the politicians leaving sexist legislation in place. Obviously, both parents will wind up taking time off from work due to issues with childcare, their kid being sick, or other child related issues. That isn't a gendered thing, it's a parent thing, and I've seen plenty of fathers take time off for the same reason (one wound up eventually just quitting as his wife made more than him and the childcare costs meant he was working for practically no extra household income). Maternity leave is different. Men & women are both equally likely to just not have kids, so there's no advantage on either side there. But if they do choose to have kids, in almost all instances, she takes a lot longer off work to bond with her kid than he does. Even in countries where you can opt to split it, the mother will always take the majority because she's the one recovering, and men can't breastfeed. It legally adds an objective, artificial advantage to hiring men over women in order to avoid things like the additional cost of maternity cover. When the dad is off for two weeks and mum is off for a year, it's a big difference in cost for the company. It's a bit like how if the government provided tax breaks for having women work there, you'd expect companies to prioritise hiring women because they only care about the bottom line. The pretty simple and fairly obvious solution would be to increase paternity leave while leaving maternity leave untouched. It'd be better for men, as they'd get a chance to bond with their child. It'd be better for women, as they'd have more support rather than being stuck at home with a kid, while recovering from a medical procedure, with the dad at work most of the time he's awake. And, it'd completely remove any advantages when it comes to hiring based on gender, removing the incentive for companies to implement sexist policy. That's before you get into the potential long-term societal benefits, with it being a step in the right direction away from the notion that children are a women's issue.
Next time someone says something like that, respond with "I'd never have to hire men, always gotta fire them for harassment and replace them"
“It’s just too risky to hire a man, who might harass one of his coworkers tbh” has me cracking up
I’d respond with ‘I don’t hire men, they get women pregnant’
“He’s not sexist just really oblivious” Girl. He’s not oblivious, he lacks empathy, and ignorance is not an excuse for misogyny. You shouldn’t have to explain to a grown man why it’s not okay to discriminate against women. If you find yourself having to do this it means that man doesn’t give a shit about women’s issues and the struggles we face. If he cared he would educate himself and you wouldn’t have to explain it. He chooses not to. Do with that what you will. I wouldn’t choose to be in a relationship with someone like this. If my boyfriend said things like this I would leave him because it’s not my job to educate ignorant men on how to be decent people.
Yeah I mean this was 2+2=4, not differential equations. If he lacks the critical thinking skills to see how this is systemic discrimination and WHY IT IS BAD - just god almighty do not procreate with this person.
He is sexist 🫢 being “oblivious” isn’t an excuse. He’s a grown man. Do you think he’d pass over hiring a woman if he was in a position of authority? For that woman, would it matter if he acknowledged he was prejudiced against women? Does that change the truth?
Why were the men in these situations not using some of their time off to cover day care issues?
This has me seeeeeeeeeeeeeething. It’s right in front of their fuxking faces and they still choose to intentionally participate in misogyny and sexism.
Because it benefits them.
>My boyfriend, was also super casual about it too, didn't see it as an issue (he's not sexist just really oblivious). These days, I'm not sure there's a difference, sorry. There's more than enough awareness about these issues by now, and at a certain point obliviousness ceases to be an excuse.
It doesn't impact him so he doesn't have to care. This isn't some new phenomenon, he chose to ignore it.
Exactly. It’s a privilege for him to be oblivious in the first place. Women don’t have this privilege.
Yeah, if you already feel pressured to add in an added “but he isn’t sexist” “but they aren’t racist” “but they aren’t homophobic” you already know the action you described prior was exactly that.
I really believe the people who do stuff like this have a disconnect where they believe only bad people are racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. Their loved one isn’t bad, so of course they can’t be racist or sexist or homophobic. They just say things that sound an awful lot like what a racist or a sexist or a homophobe might say. In reality, Avenue Q had it right with the song “Everyone’s a little bit racist”. The good people are the ones who actively fight against that and try to learn and grow.
I find that claiming to not have any biases is a great predictor that someone is about to be one of the most biased of all, heh. As you said, "everyone's a little bit racist," and everything else - bias is a fundamental part of how human brains work. The trick is to be aware of your biases and monitor your actions.
I think it's safe to assume they're all sexist... I mean I am sexist toward men after forty years of their nonsense. My new husband who is the most feminist man I have ever met, still has some of the misogyny that came from his culture. Like all prejudices they can only exist when you don't really think about it, it's emotional. Any time he stops to think of things logically he's his normal woman-respecting self.
This is why we need paternal leave. It should be the same "risk" whether you hire a man or a woman.
Obligatory* paternal leave. Otherwise women will still be disadvantaged
amen to that. I doubt the US will do it, though. They did it in Spain and there was a marked decrease in the number of children men wanted.
I'm pretty sure the men who want "big families" are the type that generally assume they will have the excuse not to have to do as much because that was generally how society is set up. They complain about having to work to "support the family", but they seem to like the excuse not to have to spend time with their family. They also are the type to see a wife and kids as property.
Where I work we have parental leave and it is available to either parent, regardless of the family make up, even foster carers.
Tad petty but assuming there's decent maternal leave doubling paternal leave to really encourage it/terrify employers would be interesting
Newsflash - he is sexist, he just doesn't realise it. He had unconscious biases against women being in positions of power. And has the privilege of it not affecting him so he doesn't care.
I am a welder, and the amount of horrible interviews was almost all of them. Having a bunch of random men grilling me with illegal questions is awful. Normally the interviews went something like this. Are you pregnant? Are you planning on getting pregnant.? Are you married? Do you have a boyfriend? I even was asked if I was lesbian once.
I've answered "I hate children" to one of those. Not that I literally do (kids can be annoying and I don't want them in my home, that's all) but wanted to see if they like that answer. They seemed to be shocked and put off, ironically. But isn't this what their perfect childfree employee would say lol.
It is crazy they want someone who doesn't want kids, but they can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact not every woman wants kids.
And it's mostly middle aged ppl with families of their own who ask those questions, so I think hearing someone doesn't like or want kids at all is like a punch to the gut for them. It's quite widespread in Germany unfortunately, where you can't record anyone without their consent so you're basically alone in trying to prove they asked you an illegal question. It's so common that every single piece of job interview advice I've come across tells you that you're allowed to lie about family questions because they're illegal anyway. It's been illegal for 20+ years and ppl still ask, bc nobody ever gets sued since you can't prove it in court. Literally the only way to deal with this seems to be lying.
That's extremely illegal and it's disappointing that your bf more or less agrees with it.
In 2024, being oblivious is sexist.
And yet one more reason why women “don’t succeed” as much as men do.
He’s not sexist but you had to explain why employment discrimination against women is an issue?
😭😭
If he views a woman having children as a burden is that someone you’d want to have children with if that’s something you’re even interested in?
Obliviousness is its own form of sexism.
It's crazy, the same men who say and do shit like this also refuse to admit the wage gap is real. They're literally saying they prefer men over women because of how gendered non-work related obligations are. Like, they fully acknowledge how women are held back in the workforce. Too bad they still think the answer is to simply blame women instead of looking inward.
Well your bf hung his whole ass out there for you to see. If you haven’t already had a child with him, you’ve just had a preview of exactly how he’ll treat you as his private incubator - everything will be entirely your responsibility and he’s never taking a damn second off work to “help”. Please reconsider having children with this giant misogynist.
Remember these little stories when people handwring over low birth rates and high divorce rates. You want them to improve? Fix *this* shit (instead of just yelling at women for not dating you).
It's men not doing their share at home when both have careers that leads to this pattern and recognition of it by decision-makers. Then it affects all women of childbearing age, whether they are mothers or not. No matter what equality women gain access to, men don't step up in typical "women's" spheres so just just has twice as much to do, sucks all around.
Story time: My dad hired a female ceo because he believes the future is female. He would say he is a feminist. When he hires any female employee, he asks about their future pregnancy plans. I explained that if he is in fact a feminist he can't ask that question. He said how when he hired his female CEO he asked her, and she understands why. It's so that he doesn't have someone join, train them, and then they need time off for mat leave. I explained that I understood why he asked, and that her pretending to be ok with the question, doesn't make it right. He said that I don't get to define what being a feminist is. He's a feminist because he believes in women. Asking that question has nothing to do with them being women. Even though he doesn't ask it to his males. He said he hates when I say he's not a feminist because he's better than 9/10 men. I told him that's nothing to brag about. The bar for men is a tripping hazard in hell. He thought that was hysterical. The patriarchy is real and exhausting.
Holy shit. No offense to you, but your dad needs to get educated by an employment lawyer wielding a five pound legal treatise. Asking about a female candidate’s pregnancy plans has been illegal for at least 3+ decades (the one time it was asked of me) and likely far longer. I hope every woman he asks that reports that.
Me too.
That shit is straight out illegal in Canada (and I assume, most of the developed world)
Warned him "I hope one day a woman you interviewed files against you, because it seems that's what you need to learn"
It's definitely illegal in Australia, and I've read people saying in this comment section it's even illegal in the US.
“He’s not sexist just really oblivious.” Denial is a river in Egypt my friend.
It's the same energy as "he's not unhelpful, just really oblivious how to push the start button on a washing machine. Ofc he poured bleach in my clothing on accident. Men are so clueless haha, amirite"
Exactly!! It’s 2024 ignorance is not an excuse. I’m also just over women endlessly defending their husbands sexist thoughts and behaviors. The reality is that pretty all men are sexist to some degree. Just because we date them doesn’t mean they aren’t sexist. So let’s stop defending our boyfriends and husbands and start confidently letting them know it’s not ok. It doesn’t automatically mean they’re bad people or that they can’t be educated. But we have to call them out.
Does your boyfriend want a kid?
Yeah so he is a sexist lol
>(he's not sexist just really oblivious) Unfortunately, those 2 things are not mutually exclusive.
And they wonder why many young people today are opting out of having families.
you have no idea! men get the ‘marriage bonus’ - increase in pay, benefits; promotions for ‘the provider’ - while women get docked for the exact same thing. men get raises/increase in pay/benefits/opportunities while women (walking fucking incubators that we are 😑) get docked. of course, because the majority of the child rearing falls on women - how many men are the primary contact for their children’s schools/activities/etc al? yeah, fuck the patriarchy, and their double standards!
Okay why does he act like men don’t have paternity leave? And he just slammed all the childcare on the working woman (in a two parent/working household).
Why are you making excuses for him? Unless he’s a complete imbecile he knows he’s being sexist. He just doesn’t care. If he’s in the US does he realize that they were breaking the law?
>So like how many jobs are women losing out to men just because of asshole managers like that. Better question is how many billions are companies leaving on the table by expecting their employees to be organic machines and not actual human beings?
This is one of several reasons why I advocate for mandatory, paid, gender neutral parental leave - at least for a month, whether adopting or giving birth. There’s no logicing people about this. They will always generalize as long as women take off more time on average when bringing a new child into the home. And with all the other benefits to the child and parent with mandatory *paid* leave, it’s a no brainer to me.
How charmingly 1960s if him. Did he know we have workers rights and equality now. We can even vote!
On paper, yes. But I was canned after disclosing my pregnancy to my boss and because it was a small business with fewer than 50 employees (can’t remember the exact number but there’s a minimum number needed for certain labor protections to apply), it was totally legal. This was 10 years ago so not even close to 1960.
😂😂
And can even get your own credit card in your own name, too! (1970s, so a bit too modern for him)
Bf is a dumb ass. A lot of men take paternity leave now, and also take random days off because of child care issues.
Many years ago I had just had my 4th kid in a span of 5 years. My industry was primarily men, I was one of two women in 800 employees. One day, a particularly beastly man demanded to know why the women were given so much time off. I say beastly because he refused to marry his babies (8 kids) mamas because they would lose government assistance. I replied with I have kids who need doctor visits, school appointments, etc and my husband was often away due to his job. He had the audacity to say, that’s a moms JOB. I replied, then pay me for being a mom instead of doing this!
One of the things I really value about my current employer is 12 weeks paid leave for both parents and a culture that both parents take all of it.
It's sexist and shitty and unironically why a lot of higher level positions have so few women under a certain age working in them, despite having men below said age in abundance.
Well that would dry my vaginal secretions for any man... But more importantly the number to the national Labor hotline for gender discrimination is 202-693-0106. https://www.dol.gov/general/contact/contact-phone-topics
even the military give maternity leave with no issues, lol. I was on bedrest med leave in my last trimester and than 8 weeks off(normally 6 weeks but I had 2 weeks saved up)
This is a weirdly popular take in military and military-adjacent areas. My sister is retired Army and she said that not only did she hear it anytime someone got *near* the subject of women in combat positions, but that according to the numbers, male soldiers rack up more absentee time in the brig/drunk tank for drunken belligerent antics than women do on maternity leave. So in addition to being backwards and sexist, it’s not even facts!
"not even facsts!" Like the "women can't drive" stereotype, when insurance companies know very well that women are less dangerous drivers than men.
Exactly. Actuarial tables *definitely* do not lie 😜
Are you sure he's not sexist? I know you said boyfriend and not husband, but think if that's his mentality now, how would he respect your career aspirations if you became a mother?
Remind him to be careful who he admits that around as that would be grounds for a crazy expensive lawsuit if it isn't already. Or, you could be really malicious and continue the conversation over email >:-)
If this is the US, that is literally illegal. How is that not an immediate deal breaker for you? > (he’s not sexist just really oblivious) Internalized misogyny is still misogyny
In Spain we have compulsory paid maternity AND paternity leave just to avoid discrimination. This helps because: - no gender gap in pregnancy - helps with parenting equality
I have a business . Our leave for parents is equal time- parents need to be parents 50/50. And no one is penalized for their gender if they have to take time off either . It can be done by employers, they just don’t want to.
whenever I get into it with someone the retort is always very generic, "why should someone be allowed to leave a job and just waltz back into it no questions asked?" oh I don't know, because it's their job and they haven't quit? Should people not be allowed regular vacation time anymore because they go away for some days, weeks, what have you, and then return no questions asked? clowns, all of 'em
If you and your boyfriend plan on having kids someday, there should probably be some serious conversations first.
Even though we know it's true, it's just infuriating. I'm infuriated for my friends who have and want kids, and infuriated for myself who also has to deal with this but is child free by choice. Over the years I've found myself being more picky about the companies I work for. My current company has a generous PARENTAL leave policy, and my male coworkers time time off just as often as the women do. I've had women managers and directors and VPs, all of whom have kids. The men I work with are just as quick to WFH due to childcare reasons as the women. And all at the same time I do not feel punished for not having kids, which has happened at some companies. Kids aren't treated as something that hurts or helps your career, they're just part of life for people.
I worked at a software company. They liked to boast about how well they treated the female employees. When I got pregnant, my lead let me go. A friend was a manager at the same company, and when he found out, he asked me to work in his group. I worked right up until the day I gave birth. Your boyfriend *does* need to tread lightly. So, I dealt with my asshole ex-lead by taking the slot in my friend’s group and dropping by the lab when I started to show, just to annoy the putz.
your boyfriend is sexist. sorry to say.
It just makes me so mad because it’s patriarchal socialization that places the onus of childcare on women but COINCIDENCE COINCIDENCE it negatively impacts women at work. Women brunting childcare is 100% manipulation to keep us out of leadership and the workforce. I can’t believe simpleton men can realize this. It’s so GRATING. 👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺👺
My ex husband had the same reasoning as to why there's a wage gap... the fucking lack of gratitude for our bringing life into their world is horrifying.
Sadly, despite it being illegal to discriminate against pregnant women/mothers/women in general, it happens all of the time. Employers won’t say it outright, but will “find a better candidate.” It happened to me when I was pregnant and it sucked. I’d reconsider if your BF is someone that you want to continue a relationship with. This kind of indifference misogyny is a HUGE red flag.
Damn, I'd be tempted to report that to the EEOC or call them out on social media or something, that's very much not good. That's systemic sexism in the workplace and fully illegal.
That is grade A discrimination. Ask him if he likes being a party to that.
"He's not sexist, just oblivious" I'm gonna hold your hand when I tell you this...
So just consider how much work you have to do to make a man like your boyfriend into not a misogynistic ass. Then consider if you will still love a man after having to put that much emotional labor into him. Then consider that he may leave you anyway after all that unpaid labor. Not saying you need to dump him, just saying that you can't get any of the unpaid labor back.
Side note, this is also why I am a huge proponent of paternity leave. Make men a ticking time bomb just as much as women.
I used to own a business - my (male) business (50/50) partner refused to agree to a hire I wanted because she was a woman, for this exact reason. When I started the business, my dad told me the same thing - don't hire women because they need time off to have babies. It's incredibly common I'm afraid.
I'm sorry but he is very sexist. He just doesn't think he is.
Why are you making excuses for him? Unless he’s a complete imbecile he knows he’s being sexist. He just doesn’t care. If he’s in the US does he realize that they were breaking the law?
This is why we need men to take parental leave as well. We will split the leave with my spouse this time so both are away 8months. He is head of a business unit in a very male dominant industry. Should teach a lesson there / set an example.
There was an Australian news article on the subject (because men can access parental leave if they're the primary caregiver in Australia), and I remember one instance of a boss saying to his male staff member, "Yeah, sure mate, you can take the leave, but can you tell everyone else here that you broke your back and were in hospital for six months or something?" because that was a more "manly" and normal thing for men to take time off work for.
Argh that is so frustrating
Argh that is so frustrating
Your boyfriend is ignorant AND sexist. Our society is not designed for women to have children and a career. These are facts. The childcare falls to women 99% of the time. It is true that other employees are expected to pick up the slack, often without additional compensation when the female employee is out for maternity leave or childcare reasons. This is not fair to them either. As a childfree woman I was often that person. My personal life and free time was deemed less important that that of parents. I don't blame the mothers, I blame how society is structured. This is one of the main issues radical feminism addressed back in toe 1970s. Women are discriminated against not because we are "feminine" but because of our perceived or actual reproductive capacity.
I’m a manager. When people complain to me about how annoying it is that women leave jobs to have babies I say at least I get 9 months notice and they come back already trained. It’s actually a much lesser cost to the business than people who quit, giving 2 weeks notice.
I would honestly find out who HR is in that company and let them know what a liability they have working for them.
The fact he saw nothing wrong with them not hiring women is sexist. Don't excuse crappy behavior.
sorry op your boyfriend is sexist 🤷🏼♀️ refusing to think critically about stuff like this is a form of sexism, at a certain point ignorance is just proof of how he doesn't think of women as people with livelihoods in the same way that he thinks of men
And yet these children the women are going to bear are also the children of MEN. Men should be supportive of every aspect of pregnancy and childcare. They should be advocates of maternity/ paternity leave, family planning, birth control, of good daycare, of good salaries for childcare workers, of education and recreation programs for kids … etc etc etc. These are their children too! The responsibility and accountability of men are always left out of the reproduction discussion. I wonder why? 🤔
Assuming you are in the US that is completely illegal. It sucks that your boyfriend is not enough of an ally to have reported those managers for saying that. TBH, I am at a point in my life where I honestly wouldn't even bother with a man who wasn't incredulous at something like that much less didn't do anything about it.
>he's not sexist just really oblivious Yes, he is sexist and the fact that you needed to specify this is very telling. The sooner you understand that men KNOW, they just DON'T CARE, the better.
YES. Omg when I was younger I thought my ex lacked understanding turned out he knew and understood perfectly, he just didn’t care.
Men will abandon both terminally ill wives and children. Women are then punished for being the ones who stay and caregive. Ain’t that a b;tch.
I heard this from a manger back in the 90s when I was a nurse. This was a woman who was managing an ICU staffed almost exclusively by women in probably the most woman-dominated industry that exists, and she firmly believed that men were more qualified to do her own job than she was because a woman could potentially need to take time off for something related to parenthood or pregnancy. EDIT: Thinking back on it, I should probably thank her. Her horrible bigotry was one of the last straws that broke my conservative back and turned me into the hyper-librul hippie that I am today.
I got job interview through a friendly acquaintance. Went to the interview, did great, they walked me around the office and I met the big boss and that seemed to go really well. Anyways I didn't get the job. My acquaintance told me the last 3 people in the spot had quit to be SAHM so they hired a guy this time. Was super frustrating. (And I never had any more kids but that's besides the point). Not something I could argue or complain about because outside of that comment from him, what proof would there be and it's not like I wanted to work for someone like that anyways.
I regret to inform you he IS sexist and you’re oblivious of it.
If you have the time and/or gumption, please contact the EEOC (Equal Opportunity Employment Commission) to report this kind of thing. Even if it’s just hearsay/an anonymous tip, they can (and will) investigate claims of discrimination based on gender, marital status, pregnancy, etc. This isn’t just morally abhorrent, it’s highly illegal. Even without naming specific names of employees, you can report a company or unit within a large corporation for EO violations or prejudiced hiring/advancement practices. Source: hi it’s me, I’m Todd from HR
Growing up, my mom would tell me why she didn't want my dad to hire younger women because they want a family and they'd take leave (I truly believe that's the reason, not because she thinks he'd cheat) Stressed me tf out once I finally got out of grad school and I was in that position and realized how fucked up it all is.
This is so enraging! A couple of years ago my brother got a new manager, who decided my brother had to work until 7pm on Sundays, not 3pm. My brother was like, “can’t, I’m a single dad and I need to be home”. The manager just couldn’t get their head around a bloke doing childcare, especially a dad who has more custody than mum (god, the amount of every-other-weekend-dads is irritating and not at all helping women). And this manager was a woman. I was double annoyed about that. Anyway, all that to say if my brother figured it out (and I know his situation was slightly more unusual) than other men can.
I was stunned about a year ago when one of my instructors starting complaining about their department's most recent hire getting pregnant and then complaining another instructor they hired a few years ago got pregnant right off the bat (even though that wasn't really true). I was very uncomfortable, and looking back, I wish I had said something.
not just sexist.....ILLEGAL. If I knew the company, I'd report them.
that sounds illegal…. and quite frankly, proves how men feel comfortable saying sexist thingss in front of other men, who won’t call them out on it and won’t encourage any change in behaviour so long as they aren’t affected ur bf IS sexist. a lot of sexism is born out of ignorance and men getting to be oblivious to sexism. same way white ppl say some generalizations about black ppl, not see any issue with it and then say they’re not racist. they think you need to be screaming the n word to be racist (and even then some ‘not racist white ppl’ will do that still). nobody likes to admit they’re privileged and prejudiced it’s the same with men. they think sexism is only overt and that’s how they get away with treating us worse. feminism has fought for women’s rights in the workplace for this exact reason. it’s not legal in a lot of places to ask a woman if she’s pregnant because it leads to this issue (which clearly hasn’t stopped because of the work culture that your bf has actively participated in)
This just proves fathers aren't pulling their weight
Your boyfriend isn't very bright. That conduct is discriminatory and illegal.
He's oblivious AND sexist.
Make it personal. Ask him if that means he would suggest you not be hired somewhere or not be promoted because you’re a woman who might get pregnant. Let him think that through.
Your boyfriend sucks and is stupid to be this oblivious. I wouldn't have the patience for that kind of sexist bullshit and you shouldn't stand for it either
So these men not get paternity leave?
Please name and shame the company/ies. You owe them nothing.
> he's not sexist just really oblivious lol
People forget that raising children is... well... A JOB ! YES ! IT IS A JOB ! Just like being a CEO, a cashier or whatever else, going throught pregnancy, giving birth and raising kids is a JOB that your country depends on but nobody wants to admit it. No matter what, you're making a future worker, and sadly humans are pretty much stupid and defensless for majority of their life, even after 18 yrs old they are still mostly kids. No matter if the kid is a future surgeon who saves lives or a janitor at school, it's a needed person. Women have to leave to give birth and care for a baby ? Yeah so basically they have to pause their one job to begin a different job. Men should also have paid leave, children need both parents at home. I'm not even going to begin that naturally for us raising our little monkey children was pretty much a whole community thing and not mom & dad thing, but the world has changed, and jobs need to understand that it's their duty to help. Especially what you said, it's a million dollar company, it can afford to invest into a future adult.
This is a HUGE reason for paid parental leave. Levels the playing field if men of child bearing age can also be out for several months.
Fucking rage inducing
Uh, he’s sexist.
This thought is very common. But if you don’t have kids you get the burden of doing all the work for people with kids and you don’t get promoted because the moms and dads need it more than you. The world is garbage
Sad to say 'oblivious' and 'sexist' wear the same thinking caps.
Ethically and morally it's wrong with no justification whatsoever. If it's corporate managers pulling this BS with a big parent company that's double terrible.
Your boyfriend's comment is really outdated and unfair. Women deserve equal opportunities.
I dont agree with 'not hiring women'. Thats an unfair blanket assumption. But I mean... honestly I kind of get not hiring women who want kids because yeah. They're going to want to leave early, or come in late, or give excuses as to why work isnt done. Or take 6 months to a year off in maternity leave, then come back distracted, then have to leave every few months for extended periods to deal with childcare. Then come back and wonder why suddenly they lack respect in the department. It falls on the woman 9/10 times. Get better split leave.
capitalisme is not sexist per se. if the law were inversed ppl would frown upon hiring men all the same. my wife work for allianz (insurance company) with mainly women and it was all fun and game for our first kid. but then she returned to work with more work to do than when she left because they took someone in during her leave but it took time to form her and for her to know all the in and out of her files. then when she told them she was pregnat with our second (and last) there were some side eyes… it seems its not that easy to replace someone for a limited time period with someone equally capable and ready to go. would i be for equal legal parency leave? yes but thats only the « legal » part like my wife got on leave 2 months prior to giving birth for medical reason (we would not be able to halve this between us obviously) and took 2 month more at then end (at 50% salary rate) for medical reason too. so all in all in my country even if we had 50/50 i would have took 3 months and my wife 3 + 2 + 2 so not 50/50. when you think money wise it will always be more risk to hire a woman in her 20 to 35 without kids than a man in the same age grp. will boss put money before any humans? mainly yes