As I man I don't really understand this generation of men. When I was younger--a pretty long time ago, before cell phones--I appreciated this kind of roundabout rejection. If a girl said she had a boyfriend, even if she didn't, then she wasn't rejecting you, circumstances were. If she gave you a fake number, you didn't even know until you got home and tried it. At which point you could make it a story for your friends, or you could never speak of it again.
Back then at least, the worst thing we expected to happen was for a girl to obviously reject us in front of our friends, and whatever a woman's motivation for disguising the rejection, we were spared this minor humiliation.
So I really don't understand all the tricks and tactics guys use to try to get around this. What are the possible outcomes? You force the woman to explicitly and publicly reject you, instead of letting everyone walk away with minimal embarrassment? You get her information, and then she blocks you as soon as she's safely away from you? Or she ignores your messages and missed calls, while you keep wasting your time until you get the hint?
What's the best case scenario, that she gives you minimal engagement to keep from upsetting you, and in the course of that conversation she slowly realizes what a great guy you are? If she tried to dodge you in the first place, and you resort to such aggressive tactics not to let her, I'm guessing that it's far more likely that'd she'll keep giving you just enough to avoid making you feel rejected, but she'll never change her mind about you. Meanwhile, you're wasting all this time and effort on somebody you'll never win over.
a woman who will give into pressure while trying to get her number will be more likely to give into pressure when getting her to go on a date or go to your house and will be more likely to give into pressure to have sex. its more of a weeding out women who have proper boundaries which actually does save these types of men time because theyre not interested in an equal relationship/respectful hookup.
these types of strategies to target women with weak/no boundaries as well as women who are insecure are shared among "pick up artists" and redpillers to use consciously but some people also use them unconsciously because they arrived at it through trial and error or they saw others do it.
I dont love it when these women give out the wrong number that happens to be mine though.
I've definitely received calls that weren't for me. Lmao
"Sorry wrong number."
Him: so, this isn't Stacy from Friday night?
Me: Nope. I've had this number for almost 2 decades. Sorry she gave you the wrong number. Lol
It's only happened a couple of times so I guess if she's doing it for her own safety, fine, I'll continue to let the men down for you.
The best answer to "can I have your number" is "give me yours". Then it's on him to prove he's worth calling. It's not perfect, but it quickly sorts the wheat from the chaff.
This is actually genius. It’s enough of an acceptance that the dude might not go berserk but also final enough that they’ll probably leave you alone and you can choose to ghost them.
But just a warning for anyone else reading this: *never* give a guy your phone and let him put his own number in. He will text or call himself with it; it only takes two seconds for him to text himself a simple “hi” before you even realize what he’s doing. It’s happened to me, and it’s not a mistake I ever want to make again.
As someone who has worked in cyber security, it is almost never a good idea to hand anyone your unlocked phone. Once it’s in their hands, there is too much they can do before you get it back. There are much more common ways that people break into phones, but for women dealing with difficult men? This guy can:
- Refuse to hand it back
- Install spyware
- Change settings so that he can easily find your location
- look at your contacts & send himself details of those contacts
- Read personal and professional messages between you and others
- Look through your photos
- Read geotagging information from your photos and find out where you live or places you frequent
And, frustratingly, I’ve also found that saying “Oh, sorry, I just don’t feel comfortable doing that” often gets a shitty response. So now I use, “My boyfriend / father / brother / miscellaneous male works in cybersecurity and told me never to do that…”
Yah, my friend told me the same thing about how you have to use a male figure telling you they don't want you to do that for guys to respect it. That's so strange.
It’s because as some dude’s property, I am only asserting his rights, not my own if I tell a guy I’m not gonna do a thing because [dude I’m shifting the blame to] said so.
This right here. I’m extremely protective of my phone. People need to safeguard their data more. I would go further and add that you should just straight up tell anyone who asks to handle your phone that you have personally worked in cybersecurity (and not just a male you know) — no need to diminish your own expertise for their comfort.
I hide behind “a man told me to” because when I have said it is my own expertise, the interaction nearly always has escalated in ways I just don’t need, especially not in an interaction with a man who is bigger than me, often with his buddies who he needs to save face around, and who has had a few drinks.
I get your point and… there’s nothing wrong with judging the situation and deciding what answer you’re going to give.
Can all of this seriously happen in the 10 seconds it takes to input a phone number? I usually keep an eye on people when they do it, it's my phone after all they shouldn't mind if I look over their shoulder. If someone fucked with my settings I think I would notice?
This is exactly why I used to give them my phone to put their number in, after saying no to giving them mine. Its a real quick way to see if they're inclined to ignore boundaries. If they do I block their number immediately and that's that.
I’m a guy and I just do that anyways. Feels easier all around plus you don’t have to awkwardly stand there typing in a number but rather just hand over a card after you think you hit it off with someone, assuming you carry a business card.
Of course, asking someone out on a date with a business card can be a little cringe but it’s the best way for either strangers or relatively unfamiliar acquaintances imo.
I'd find it hilarious (in a good way) if someone offered me their business card in this context. It would be even funnier if you didn't get them for your job but got custom made ones to hand out.
I had one for a volunteer position but it made it easier in a lot of ways cause it had my name, number, and an email on it. I felt it was a no pressure way to give someone the ability to contact me if they like.
I wish it were socially acceptable to do this. I never ask people I like (platonically) for their number because I don't want them to feel pressure. This would alleviate that hurdle.
And I'm pretty extroverted.
I see the downsides, of course, but this would be a near ideal solution for my particular social hang up.
Gen Z are right that texting is so much better than calling.
I could be happy to get a text, but when you’re incredibly busy and someone calls you it’s annoying and inconvenient.
Plus if they don’t respond you can accept the quiet rejection without losing face with anyone.
That person would instantly get a call from me as long as they approached me respectfully. Lol
It’s always the weirdest people who are the best as long as they’re not weird in a creepy way.
My only worry with custom non work cards is that I could see it making it look like I do that a lot and am looking for hookups rather than dating. That’s false and not the first impression I’d want to give off. I don’t think business cards would give that impression.
I could also be overthinking the whole thing which is more likely than not. Plus I wouldn’t just have to use the custom ones for asking people out, but just giving my number to nice people I’d want to be friends with.
You're slightly overthinking based on how you perceive others may perceive you. You can circumvent this with a ficticious or low effort side hustle "business card".
I had one for a volunteer position but it made it easier in a lot of ways cause it had my name, number, and an email on it. I felt it was a no pressure way to give someone the ability to contact me if they like
Wow, I'd almost forgotten that time my parents made business cards for me before I went to college (I was bullied as a kid and they were really worried about me not having friends/being isolated when I went away from home) and tried to get me to hand them out to people I met. I did not.
I was told in a different sub that my response of "What's your number?" to his request of "Can we move to phone calls or text?" was rude. Like, in what world?
Spoilers: despite messaging over a couple weeks, no response to that one.
Exactly and the slight hint of not respecting your boundaries (ie insisting to miss call him so he gets your number too), you know you don’t want him having your number.
I really feel like in the past, we had this whole system of polite implications made to protect the feelings of both parties, and women were tasked with keeping up that polite implication to save the feelings of the pursuer. But then some pushy men decided to start trying to ditch those polite implications so they don't have to take no for an answer, and then other men are like "well gee they must just be oblivious."
Like the fake number one is an obvious one. If somebody asks you out and you don't want to, you give them a fake number or you say "I'm so sorry I have to wash my hair that night." And if everybody just understands that "have to wash my hair" means "I don't wanna I'm just being polite about it", then she can say the polite thing that saves his feelings, he can accept her rejection while maintaining that comforting doubt that maybe she just really wanted to wash her hair, and it doesn't sting so bad.
Or another one that I do not know how to handle, the implication that going up to a man's apartment after a date means having sex. Everybody knows that that's what that means. So after every date, a man will be like "You've gotta come up to my place after this, there's this hilarious YouTube video I'd like to show you." And I don't want to have sex with him tonight, but still like him. I know that going up to his apartment means sex to him, so I want to say no. But I don't want to say no in a way that hurts his feelings, or makes him think I don't want to have sex with him in the future. In the past, I could just say "Oh thank you so much, but I've got to get home to walk my dog, but I'll text you and we can set up another date next week, I really had a great time." And I could get out of having sex with him tonight, but I never had to aggressively reject him, so he can go on thinking "Maybe this chick doesn't want to have sex with me, but maybe she just cares about her dog so much." It allows both people to walk away not having to do anything they want to do and not being hurt. But so many times, instead of saying "Oh say hi to you dog for me," they'll go "Well surely you can stop in for just 5 minutes! It's a YouTube video!" They are unwilling to accept a polite rejection. And I think for some of them it's because they know that a lot of women when you don't accept their polite rejection, they won't firmly reject you. They'll just go along with it. But I think a lot of men just don't think about why we have these social rules in the first place. It's to save their feelings. And they think things like "Well I don't want anybody to save my feelings just be logical." But they don't actually want that either! I've never had a man respond well to "Hey, just to be clear with you, I'm really enjoying hanging out with you, but I don't want to go to your apartment because I don't want to have sex with you tonight." That's not a thing they'd like to hear!
100 percent; if you straight up said "Hey, just to be clear with you, I'm really enjoying hanging out with you, but I don't want to go to your apartment because I don't want to have sex with you tonight." They would get SO FUCKING BUTTHURT. "What??! That wasn't what I meant at ALL! You're taking this WAY out of context! I just wanted to show you a \*youtube video\*! I wasn't trying to lure you somewhere where I have the upper hand/it's harder for you to say 'no'! I'm a great guy-- I'd never do that!! How DARE you imply I'd do that, even though I LITERALLY JUST TRIED TO DO THAT?'
I’ve met so many of this type of guy and it’s exhausting. The only men who get upset when you have a boundary are the ones who fully intend to violate that boundary if/when given the chance.
It is a good way to weed these guys out though. Tell them you don’t want to hang out at their place or yours because you don’t want to have sex with them yet. Watch them implode, then cut it off there.
> the implication that going up to a man's apartment after a date means having sex. Everybody knows that that's what that means. So after every date, a man will be like "You've gotta come up to my place after this, there's this hilarious YouTube video I'd like to show you."
I'm really glad I read your post bc I'm dumb and I did not know that's what it meant. And now I know I can never hang out in anyone's place after a date.
Great observation, and I wonder how much people being raised online has an effect. Online communication strips nuance and will berate anything that isn't entirely direct. I've found younger generations have a hard time picking up on nuance/indirect communication.
This is one reason why I have a Google Voice number that will ring my cell (and also handles text messages). When I'm safely away, I can block them. I have the Google Voice app on my phone also, in case I am pushed to call or text, but mostly it's them asking for the number.
It's funny because it's not like we do those things to purposefully fuck with them or something, we do roundabout rejections because we've all had at least one man unreasonably blow up at us for more direct rejections
Seriously. A couple years ago I was at a bar with my girlfriends and a guy asked me if he could buy me a drink. I politely said no, but thanks for the offer. Then I turned away from him to keep chatting with my friend. The guy said "excuse me? you don't want a drink?" and I said again "No thank you, I already have one." So he dumped his full beer on my head and threw the empty glass at me, hitting me in the mouth and cutting my lip. Cool.
*WHAT?*
That is assault. Honestly, I hear so many stories of girls being harrassed bc there are these crazy guys who take sm offense when a girl doesn't continue the interaction the way they would like and then there are guys accusing girls of leading them on when they are just being polite. It's so confusing to have to speedread a person and then make a quick assessment of what you can say or do to least offend them.
I'm sorry this happened to you. I hope he got hit with a police report and record. Not that it would make what he did remotely ok. But these kinds of events are traumatizing.
Not sure if he got in trouble - the bouncers were on him almost immediately. I just wanted to get home. I told them they could call the police if they want but I don't want to be involved. I was assaulted by a man in a bar about 10 years prior and chose to file a report and spent 3 years in and out of court, missing work, just for him to get off so I wasn't interested in doing that again 🥴
Yah the justice system is so flawed and ridiculous but I'm glad the bouncer did his job. I don't blame you for not wanting to drag things out one bit. I'm still really sorry that happened to you tho. I hope the establishment gave him a taste of his own medicine after he left. The audacity for him to do that 😡
I wish that responding violently to rejection would lead to a 100% guaranteed 15 year prison sentence with no way of getting out of it.
It gives all men a bad name.
What’s even the point of asking if you’re not allowed to say no?
Probably for the sake of appearances, to make it look like they're giving the woman a choice, when really they have no intention of taking no for an answer.
Agreed, they choose to ignore the fact that we’re doing it because we feel unsafe. They don’t care and they don’t care so much that they provide each other tips to get around it! They’ve already proven they can’t take rejection by trying to skirt around it with these gross tips.
>It's funny because it's not like we do those things to purposefully fuck with them or something...
I'm sure that's true 95% of the time, but it is kind of funny seeing the dichotomy between this and other comments right around it: unfortunate necessity vs enthusiastic retribution.
How is that enthusiastic retribution?
No one is happy about this. We (women, primarily) are beyond frustrated that men are experiencing this.
We don't want that? We just want men to be accountable for their actions. The male loneliness epidemic is male caused and male perpetuated.
Making fun of people that are basically just crying that they can't continue to abuse women and get away with it is NOT enthusiastic retribution.
I wish the "male loneliness epidemic" would go away! But that would require a large societal shift so I am not hopeful that will happen, and considering we're slowly shifting towards fascism as a planet (*again* somehow), not in my lifetime
>Making fun of people that are basically just crying that they can't continue to abuse women and get away with it is NOT enthusiastic retribution.
I think the toxic womanizers, abusers, and just terrible partners are generally a pretty different demographic from the young, depressed, guys who have largely never had any relationships at all.
So I guess it just seemed a little vindictive to even bring it up in this context. But really not that serious, I just thought the contrast was a little funny when it was one comment above this thread.
Wah wah wah just let men shoot their shots who cares if it compromises your physical or mental safety??? You're just a walking vagina anyway, stop withholding sex from me!!!!
ThE MaLe LonEliNeSs EpIdEmIc 😢😢😢dont you care about mens mental health? Selfish bitches!!!! Its your fault incels exist you'll get whats coming to you!!
(felt gross typing that because its exactly what they say)
These kind of guys deserve to be played the world’s smallest violin. They act like sex is some kind of life necessity that every good guy is entitled to, and treat every relationship they perceive to be “hypergamous” as if it’s theft of something they were destined to be gifted.
Thank you! I came up with that at eleven, when grown ass men started hitting on me. Can't even have a peaceful childhood because the motherfuckers refuse us the luxury of simply being left alone. No respect for our time, space or humanity.
> “I always call immediately so they save my number.”
I've somehow seen this "advice" multiple times on reddit.
So many CHUDs and "red pillers" think this is some sort of a "boss move" to "call the woman out"
We're really in a bad spot. GenZ men are leaning hard into the right wing misogyny and autocratic support and anti-women's rights, anti-LBGTQ, anti-workers rights.
GenZ was supposed to be a generation that began to turn society around after decades of right wing Boomer domination.
Instead, GenZ men are more right wing than Boomers and it's really fucked up
People always say the conservatives are dying out but the right wing has figured out that they can get young men on their side by using misogyny. You got a group of young men entering a workforce with stagnated wages, unattainable houses, astronomical rent, and when they can't find a date because they are still living with their parents the right wing redirects their anger towards women instead of the current massive inequality that is actually causing their problems. Like how the fuck else has trad wives became a resurgence when hardly anyone can afford to raise a family on just one income? It's because the right wing has decided to use misogyny as a tool to get votes because their actual policies are garbage for anyone but the .1%.
Not every man handles a direct rejection safely. If they did, maybe women wouldn’t feel the need to resort to these tactics.
Too many men think a “no” translates to “work harder for a yes,” or worse, an excuse to berate and insult a woman for daring to say no in the first place. Not all men. But enough men.
This from the gender that start acting like assholes when they are fed up of a relationship in the hopes that _you_ dump _him_. Is that straightforward?
This is a sorta funny anecdote but on topic, also prefacing with "I was 19 and in a very safe environment with friends at a house party":
Once I gave a guy I didn't want to give my number to my dad's number. The dude immediately texted him something obscene and my dad called him with me standing right there. Watching the look on the guy's face change from "haha I just sent you a dick pic" to "holy shit I'm now talking to this girl's dad who I sent my dick to" was a glorious moment for me.
Obviously not an everytime situation. But that time... Priceless.
It's intentional. I'm going to say it again. IT'S INTENTIONAL. Toxic Masculinity can be defined as an interlocking series of myths that are used to prioritize men's feelings (especially their pantsfeelings) over women's safety. This is one of those instances.
First, you have violence against women who refuse. We all know that. It's endemic and dangerous and women *die* because of it. But if you complain about it, then it's "just a few bad apples" and "#notallmen" and that crap.
Second, you accept that terrible reality. Then you start taking steps to protect yourself. So out comes this story -- "Why don't women just say no!? It's the women's fault for beings o damned roundabout. I don't understand!"
That's a *lie*. They understand. If they *don't* understand, they they are willfully ignorant to the point of being evil (or maybe they are 10?).
There's are a third and fourth myths that pair with with these two, btw (there are so many but let's stick to these four):
Three: "It's so sad women choose to in live in so much fear"/"Are women *really* afraid of that afraid of men." (see the responses to man v bear for that). That's straight up gaslighting -- your actions to prevent your own death/rape/assault are unreasonable and mockable.
Four: "Women need to make better decisions." I mean, that's just blaming women for men's actions. We're forced into compromises at every step and then blamed for it not turning out well.
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
● If you tell a guy you're not interested, he will reply with "Why?" and keep questioning you, pushing for responses and a conversation you have zero interest in having, all while crossing your boundaries instead of accepting.... NO.
● If you tell a guy you're not interested, suddenly he is shouting all kinds of obscenities he would likely never even utter to his mother. Those words are only reserved for you because he feels so wounded and *rejected.* The same guy who was telling you how beautiful you were 2 minutes ago, is now spewing venom at you and *about* you. You see how easy it is for men to drop their mask?? You can always tell who someone is once they don't get what they want.
● If you tell a guy you're not interested, he takes NO as a challenge. He thinks he needs to work even harder to "get" you.
● If you tell a guy you're not interested, he will threaten violence, assault and other horrific acts of aggression against you. All because you're not interested in dating him. How dare you have preferences.
● If you tell a guy you're Queer or part of the LGBTQIA community, somehow that becomes perverse, and he thinks he can "change" you. Well, now he will never leave you alone.
We as women give fake AF phone numbers and whatever else we feel like we need to do TO MAKE IT HOME EACH DAY. We are walking on gotdamn eggshells knowing that *any* guy could snap and try to murder us, assault us in many ways, verbally abuse us, and other horrendous predatory acts.
So we smile and clench our teeth having to talk to a guy we said NO to at least 5 different times. So, we give them a phone number to satisfy their thirst and ego, and so we can make it home.... *unscathed.*
There are ways to get a free number as a second number on your phone. A Google number is one way. Use this number instead of a fake number, and only use it for this. Give this number it's own ring. The don't ever answer it, except to 'prove' to a guy that it's a 'real' number.
You're absolutely right to be frustrated by this. The double standard and lack of empathy on display in those comments is really concerning.
It's clear that many of these men don't understand (or don't want to understand) the very real safety concerns women face when rejecting someone. They're prioritizing their own hurt feelings over women's physical safety, which is both selfish and potentially dangerous.
The "tips" for trapping women into giving real numbers are especially alarming. That's straight-up predatory behavior. It shows a complete disregard for consent and personal boundaries. The fact that calling out this creepy behavior gets downvoted just highlights how normalized this toxic attitude is.
Your experiences with rejection gone wrong are unfortunately all too common. The guy who verbally berated you until you agreed to date him? That's coercion and emotional abuse. And the one who stalked you after getting your number? That's exactly why women sometimes feel the need to give fake numbers or roundabout rejections.
It's frustrating that these men can't seem to empathize with women's experiences. They're so focused on their own hurt feelings that they can't see the bigger picture of why women might feel unsafe giving direct rejections.
You're spot on about the hypocrisy of expecting women to cater to men's feelings while not extending the same courtesy. It's a classic example of male entitlement - the belief that women owe them something just for expressing interest.
It's important to keep calling this out and pushing back against these toxic attitudes. Women's safety should always take precedence over men's bruised egos. Maybe someday more men will understand that rejection, even if it stings, isn't nearly as bad as the very real threats women face.
Stay strong and keep advocating for yourself and other women. Your safety and comfort matter more than some random guy's feelings.
I just don’t understand why you’d want to pressure someone to give you their real number when they already gave you a fake number.
“Oh, you don’t like me and you find me scary? Well you don’t get a choice. I’m going to attach myself to you now and force you to spend time with me. If you don’t, I’ll stalk and harass and threaten to kill myself until you’re so desperate and miserable that I can rape you all I like!”
What is the fucking point?
If I ask someone out and they say “no” (and I rarely asked anyone because I would get to know people first and they’d just ask me if we had a connection) it’s in both of our best interest to just move on and put it behind us.
Am I supposed to become some sort of parasite, raping my way into her life? I don’t understand how anyone would be *happy* to do that!
If there is a mutual attraction, it will be both obvious and not awkward to swap contact details.
I also feel like it's super strange to be expected to give my personal information to a stranger just because they think I'm hot. Like.... I don't know you! Do you realize you're a complete stranger to me?
Everytime a guy asks me for my number or socials after 5 painfully awkward minutes of setup, I always say, "Sorry I don't give my info out to people I don't know."
In general, 'Shooting your shot' when it comes to cold-approaching is very unusual and weird to me. I don't know why we've made it socially acceptable. It's equivalent to an annoying salesperson who accosts you on the street, except they might actually harm you if you're not tactful with your rejection.
I always just give dudes my dads phone #. I know it by heart and I KNOW he’s going to answer the call or the text 100%. He embarrasses them every time.
What bothers me is the entitlement. A man finds a woman attractive and feels entitled to a date or more. Why is it okay for men to have preferences and not be attracted but a woman has no right to have the same preferences. It's not even personal as they don't know you at all. It's called chemistry and one side won't ever work.
Just yesterday a friend said a guy asked for her to dial his number because he "lost his phone" and was hoping he'd hear it ring. It didn't, and then that very same day he was suddenly all up in her texts going "heyyyy". I told her to just block his number, because that behaviour is NOTHING BUT red flags. It's like there's no actual person under that kind of sleazy deception - so, nobody to hurt. Who cares what, if anything, he feels about his little PUA con not working out? He probably does that a hundred times a day, just playing the numbers. So to speak. We shouldn't overestimate how invested these guys are in any particular target - they do this all day long, to everybody they'd like to fuck.
Im a man and also did that shit at aroun 20-22 (29 now) no idea why. I was figuring dating out. I simply didn't yet learned the basic principle of human realtions : its two sided, and only two sided. There is no way to trick someone to daing you. They need to want to meet with you. Such behaviour is childish.
When anyone gives me their number my whole life i automatically called, and inform the person "yo i just called you so you know mine" and continued convo. They will know its you in two days, if they care. For dating it's a good communicative handle as the girl can confirm she's into you by taking out her phone and adding you or just confirming that it pinged. But If she dosen't dont drag it on, wtf. If its real it adds excitement, if is fake perhaps not act like a creep. What is the expected outcome of standing there checking their phone? "OH YOU SO CLEVER OK HES MY REAL ONE I LOVE YOUR LACK OF MATURITY SO CUTE".
I once called when a girl had a phone in her hand (i got the fake number) and she said " you made it awkward dude, not me" We finished a ciggarete and i was the fuck out. I stopped then for good.
I’ve been on the other side. A man gave me a fake number before because I guess he didn’t like the date or me. I gave him my real number. He didn’t appear uncomfortable I just think we weren’t compatible. I texted him to thank him for the meal he bought me and someone else answered. It was embarrassing and I cried.
I did not harass him for doing that to me, but I did message him on Tinder saying that if he didn’t like me he could’ve told me to my face. But I guess he wanted to avoid confrontation. It’s hurtful to get a fake number but there’s always a reason for why the person gave one.
I think "can I get your number" needs to be retired, and replaced with "can I give you my number?"
The former phrase will make a lot of people uneasy, and even if they agree, you may not be able to tell if they are doing it out of genuine interest or obligation or politeness. The latter phrase says, I am interested in getting to know you so much, I will put myself out there first without asking anything of you.
Back in the day, giving out your number just meant they could CALL your HOME and plan a date, maybe leave a message for you if you weren't home. now, a phone number means you can send unsolicited pictures, look you up on socials (many accounts allow or require you to connect a phone #), and more depending on how loose one is with their privacy.
I've seen so many complaints along the lines of "why can't women just be straightforward instead of playing games like fake numbers." As several have rightly pointed out, being straightforward can be dangerous. But also, using soft rejection language is something everyone does in other social contexts. And in those contexts, men understand perfectly well without accusing the other of playing games. From Celia Kitzinger and Hannah Frith, *Just Say No? The Use of Conversation Analysis In Developing A Feminist Perspective On Sexual Refusal:*
"Drawing on the conversation analytic literature, and on our own data, we claim that both men and women have a sophisticated ability to convey and to comprehend refusals, including refusals which do not include the word ‘no’, and **we suggest that male claims not to have ‘understood’ refusals which conform to culturally normative patterns can only be heard as self-interested justifications for coercive behaviour**."
Sure it sucks to not get a straight answer, but I don't blame anyone who doesn't. She's doing hopefully what makes her feel most comfortable or what she knows. She may have had, or knows someone who has had, a bad experience.
This is why I feel it's important to give my number at the end of interacting instead of asking. A "passing of the ball" to do with as she sees fit. Take it or leave it, and hopefully no pressure. Plus leaving shortly after so there's space to make a decision.
Would rather date someone who is interested, not a hostage.
Speaking as an older guy who was last single before cell phones were common, I've never been bothered too much by the lack of a straight answer. Rejection hurts. Getting a few hours, or a day or two, of patting myself on the back for pulling that cute girl actually feels good. You might argue that the high makes the crash worse when I actually call the number and get a pizza place, but in my experience it wasn't. Or at least, it was never worse enough that I would have preferred the public rejection.
"Someone in the comments was even giving *tips* for other men to avoid that, saying (word for word) “I always call immediately so they save my number.” Umm… ew??? What in the stalker tips stash is that?? It seemed like the dude had a full awareness of the possibility of a false acceptance too and was also fully aware that method was pressuring someone into giving him the right number and was 100% ok with it. And the replies calling him out for being creepy were ignored and downvoted."
Maybe...just maybe...ok I am being a tad bit extreme...but maybe it's a good thing boys don't feel safe approaching girls anymore...so girls get to feel safe...sorry for the ladies who want to get pursued being thrown under the bus but there should be a few less girls suffering from these things
You are absolutely right. I had a *much* older woman (in her 70s) take my phone and text herself and then later send me nudes. It was disconcerting and violating. Probably one of my worst experiences out and about in public, and I can only imagine how much worse it would be as a woman.
My challenge has always been that I don't really understand ambiguity. I need to be very directly told what is going on because I don't pick up on more subtle signals. But I also realize the more subtle signals are an extremely important defense mechanism... so it's kind of a lose-lose situation for everyone.
I have literally no way of knowing if that specific man meant no harm and was just shooting his shot. I’ve given men the benefit of the doubt on this and I’ve gotten burned. When I’ve told these stories, I’ve been blamed for not picking better men. But then if I don’t pick these men, I’m a bitch for rejecting them. And if I reject them too kindly, I’m leading them on to think they have a chance. And if I reject a man in a mean way, I’m a cunt who deserves to die alone. And if I reject by lying, I’m a cruel bitch. But if I go out and he rapes me, this is also my fault. And if I don’t go out and I reject him in the perfect unobjectionable way where no man can get mad, he will still ultimately blame my lack of interest on him for the male loneliness epidemic.
There’s literally no winning.
/r/whenwomenrefuse
i'm a whole ass lesbian, and it's all the same. I can reject, even on the basis of my sexuality and its still not enough. Lead to me being threatened with rape
If you're a woman you can't win. A man's interest in you can be a legit danger to your life
I can definitely see where you’re coming from with this, but I don’t think prioritizing your safety over someone else’s wants is cruel. I think the idea that rejecting someone in such a way is cruel came from the very people who were rejected as a way to denounce and prevent it. More so the point I was getting at is that nobody should owe it to anyone else to cater to their feelings over one’s own, and that should be the accepted standard as long as nobody takes things too far.
Gotta say i appreciate you not misrepresenting my stance and I completely get where you are coming from. I think the whole social situation is really unfortunate that people feel the need to do this. Obviously your personal safety and comfort should be your priority and if you feel this is necessary then it's necessary.
It's just regrettable for any decent guy that's trying to get to know someone and is given this sort of false hope. But as always no one should sacrifice their own personal sense of safety to spare a strangers feelings.
It's just regrettable for any decent guy that's trying to get to know someone and is given this sort of false hope.
JUST STOP! I dont care if it gives you "false hope" it is NOT our jobs to placate you to make your tiny feelings not hurt.
Oddly enough, this is making me think of what it would be like to feed rats/mice to a snake since I recently applied to work at a reptile store. I’d been thinking about it a lot; my older sibling used to have pet rats, and they were the sweetest little things. If I were to feed a rat to a snake, I’d think about how I’ll never know if it would’ve made a good pet. I’ll never know its temperament or personality, and I’ll never know if it could’ve spent its life with someone as a beloved companion.
Though I suppose this anecdote isn’t the best comparison since I don’t think women should be considered as potential partners to a man (if that makes any sense; like the idea that a random woman isn’t automatically a “choice” to pick from), especially if she’s shown no signs of directly reciprocating.
You can do one thing. Idk how dating works, but what if the guy gives his number? Like written on paper or something? Then if the girl is interested she will certainly call, and if not then you know she wasn't interested. No false hope here.
I don't think I see any other problem so far idk, this idea came from a gentleman who commented in this very post. He gives his business card or phone number instead of waiting around typing someone else's number.
I gotta be real, the phrase "shoot their shot" kinda pisses me off at this point. Like, men are stealing women's phone numbers and addresses from their work systems and using it to "shoot their shot" and other men defend this.
Frankly, most of the time you shoot a basketball you miss. If men could shoot their shot AND accept rejection, no one would need to be afraid to give out their number to begin with.
it's not an act of cruelty...
What's cruel is that women live in a world where we have to be cautious and afraid of things like this, but that's reality and what women have to deal with
The cost of being mildly embarrassed when you text and get a reply saying ‘wrong number’
Like I have been given a wrong number. What’s the harm? What’s the cost? It felt like essentially nothing to me.
I'll say it unkindly; he can take his shot and go shove it up his ass where it belongs. As if women aren't routinely attacked, stalked, raped, or MURDERED for saying 'Sorry, no!'
Well I could make a joke about men and inserting themselves into places women don't want or need them, but I feel like it would hit too close to reality and make us both sad.
Giving out a fake number is not rejection, it's misleading someone into a fake belief... usually happens when girl meets boys she has no intention of dating and proceeds to bask in his attention and generosity creating a sense of mutual attraction because well... she can.
Rejection is simply not giving out your number to men you have zero interest in. This starts with not entertaining their advances, (no matter how flattering or money saving they are) and often ends, rather quickly, with no number requests due to insufficient time/ufavorable conditions... Even when they do, it's easier to decline due to no false interest created just to get one's 'attention tank' filled, or drinks paid, etc...
'Roundabout Rejections' and 'fake acceptence' I'm not familiar with, but Google tells me they just prove my point.
Women give out fake numbers bc they don't want to be threatened or assaulted or stalked for saying "no" outright to men. That's the difference.
As I man I don't really understand this generation of men. When I was younger--a pretty long time ago, before cell phones--I appreciated this kind of roundabout rejection. If a girl said she had a boyfriend, even if she didn't, then she wasn't rejecting you, circumstances were. If she gave you a fake number, you didn't even know until you got home and tried it. At which point you could make it a story for your friends, or you could never speak of it again. Back then at least, the worst thing we expected to happen was for a girl to obviously reject us in front of our friends, and whatever a woman's motivation for disguising the rejection, we were spared this minor humiliation. So I really don't understand all the tricks and tactics guys use to try to get around this. What are the possible outcomes? You force the woman to explicitly and publicly reject you, instead of letting everyone walk away with minimal embarrassment? You get her information, and then she blocks you as soon as she's safely away from you? Or she ignores your messages and missed calls, while you keep wasting your time until you get the hint? What's the best case scenario, that she gives you minimal engagement to keep from upsetting you, and in the course of that conversation she slowly realizes what a great guy you are? If she tried to dodge you in the first place, and you resort to such aggressive tactics not to let her, I'm guessing that it's far more likely that'd she'll keep giving you just enough to avoid making you feel rejected, but she'll never change her mind about you. Meanwhile, you're wasting all this time and effort on somebody you'll never win over.
a woman who will give into pressure while trying to get her number will be more likely to give into pressure when getting her to go on a date or go to your house and will be more likely to give into pressure to have sex. its more of a weeding out women who have proper boundaries which actually does save these types of men time because theyre not interested in an equal relationship/respectful hookup. these types of strategies to target women with weak/no boundaries as well as women who are insecure are shared among "pick up artists" and redpillers to use consciously but some people also use them unconsciously because they arrived at it through trial and error or they saw others do it.
Wow, that's profoundly sad.
Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill then.
I dont love it when these women give out the wrong number that happens to be mine though. I've definitely received calls that weren't for me. Lmao "Sorry wrong number." Him: so, this isn't Stacy from Friday night? Me: Nope. I've had this number for almost 2 decades. Sorry she gave you the wrong number. Lol It's only happened a couple of times so I guess if she's doing it for her own safety, fine, I'll continue to let the men down for you.
The best answer to "can I have your number" is "give me yours". Then it's on him to prove he's worth calling. It's not perfect, but it quickly sorts the wheat from the chaff.
This is actually genius. It’s enough of an acceptance that the dude might not go berserk but also final enough that they’ll probably leave you alone and you can choose to ghost them. But just a warning for anyone else reading this: *never* give a guy your phone and let him put his own number in. He will text or call himself with it; it only takes two seconds for him to text himself a simple “hi” before you even realize what he’s doing. It’s happened to me, and it’s not a mistake I ever want to make again.
As someone who has worked in cyber security, it is almost never a good idea to hand anyone your unlocked phone. Once it’s in their hands, there is too much they can do before you get it back. There are much more common ways that people break into phones, but for women dealing with difficult men? This guy can: - Refuse to hand it back - Install spyware - Change settings so that he can easily find your location - look at your contacts & send himself details of those contacts - Read personal and professional messages between you and others - Look through your photos - Read geotagging information from your photos and find out where you live or places you frequent And, frustratingly, I’ve also found that saying “Oh, sorry, I just don’t feel comfortable doing that” often gets a shitty response. So now I use, “My boyfriend / father / brother / miscellaneous male works in cybersecurity and told me never to do that…”
Yah, my friend told me the same thing about how you have to use a male figure telling you they don't want you to do that for guys to respect it. That's so strange.
It’s because as some dude’s property, I am only asserting his rights, not my own if I tell a guy I’m not gonna do a thing because [dude I’m shifting the blame to] said so.
This right here. I’m extremely protective of my phone. People need to safeguard their data more. I would go further and add that you should just straight up tell anyone who asks to handle your phone that you have personally worked in cybersecurity (and not just a male you know) — no need to diminish your own expertise for their comfort.
I hide behind “a man told me to” because when I have said it is my own expertise, the interaction nearly always has escalated in ways I just don’t need, especially not in an interaction with a man who is bigger than me, often with his buddies who he needs to save face around, and who has had a few drinks. I get your point and… there’s nothing wrong with judging the situation and deciding what answer you’re going to give.
Can all of this seriously happen in the 10 seconds it takes to input a phone number? I usually keep an eye on people when they do it, it's my phone after all they shouldn't mind if I look over their shoulder. If someone fucked with my settings I think I would notice?
A quick text, or just hitting send and hanging up. Ugh.
This is exactly why I used to give them my phone to put their number in, after saying no to giving them mine. Its a real quick way to see if they're inclined to ignore boundaries. If they do I block their number immediately and that's that.
I’m a guy and I just do that anyways. Feels easier all around plus you don’t have to awkwardly stand there typing in a number but rather just hand over a card after you think you hit it off with someone, assuming you carry a business card. Of course, asking someone out on a date with a business card can be a little cringe but it’s the best way for either strangers or relatively unfamiliar acquaintances imo.
I'd find it hilarious (in a good way) if someone offered me their business card in this context. It would be even funnier if you didn't get them for your job but got custom made ones to hand out.
I had one for a volunteer position but it made it easier in a lot of ways cause it had my name, number, and an email on it. I felt it was a no pressure way to give someone the ability to contact me if they like.
I wish it were socially acceptable to do this. I never ask people I like (platonically) for their number because I don't want them to feel pressure. This would alleviate that hurdle. And I'm pretty extroverted. I see the downsides, of course, but this would be a near ideal solution for my particular social hang up.
Calling cards used to be a thing. I can totally see conversation adverse Gen Z embracing them again. Name, number, picture, etc..
Gen Z are right that texting is so much better than calling. I could be happy to get a text, but when you’re incredibly busy and someone calls you it’s annoying and inconvenient. Plus if they don’t respond you can accept the quiet rejection without losing face with anyone.
Plus there's the reminder that someone's waiting for a response! Lol
Could totally see it with all the horror stories from online dating millennials. Might make a return to face to face interactions
its weird enough to be cute, in a way.
That person would instantly get a call from me as long as they approached me respectfully. Lol It’s always the weirdest people who are the best as long as they’re not weird in a creepy way.
My only worry with custom non work cards is that I could see it making it look like I do that a lot and am looking for hookups rather than dating. That’s false and not the first impression I’d want to give off. I don’t think business cards would give that impression. I could also be overthinking the whole thing which is more likely than not. Plus I wouldn’t just have to use the custom ones for asking people out, but just giving my number to nice people I’d want to be friends with.
You're slightly overthinking based on how you perceive others may perceive you. You can circumvent this with a ficticious or low effort side hustle "business card".
I had one for a volunteer position but it made it easier in a lot of ways cause it had my name, number, and an email on it. I felt it was a no pressure way to give someone the ability to contact me if they like
People used to use calling cards.
Wow, I'd almost forgotten that time my parents made business cards for me before I went to college (I was bullied as a kid and they were really worried about me not having friends/being isolated when I went away from home) and tried to get me to hand them out to people I met. I did not.
I was told in a different sub that my response of "What's your number?" to his request of "Can we move to phone calls or text?" was rude. Like, in what world? Spoilers: despite messaging over a couple weeks, no response to that one.
It's rude in his world, where you aren't supposed to be smarter than him.
Exactly and the slight hint of not respecting your boundaries (ie insisting to miss call him so he gets your number too), you know you don’t want him having your number.
I really feel like in the past, we had this whole system of polite implications made to protect the feelings of both parties, and women were tasked with keeping up that polite implication to save the feelings of the pursuer. But then some pushy men decided to start trying to ditch those polite implications so they don't have to take no for an answer, and then other men are like "well gee they must just be oblivious." Like the fake number one is an obvious one. If somebody asks you out and you don't want to, you give them a fake number or you say "I'm so sorry I have to wash my hair that night." And if everybody just understands that "have to wash my hair" means "I don't wanna I'm just being polite about it", then she can say the polite thing that saves his feelings, he can accept her rejection while maintaining that comforting doubt that maybe she just really wanted to wash her hair, and it doesn't sting so bad. Or another one that I do not know how to handle, the implication that going up to a man's apartment after a date means having sex. Everybody knows that that's what that means. So after every date, a man will be like "You've gotta come up to my place after this, there's this hilarious YouTube video I'd like to show you." And I don't want to have sex with him tonight, but still like him. I know that going up to his apartment means sex to him, so I want to say no. But I don't want to say no in a way that hurts his feelings, or makes him think I don't want to have sex with him in the future. In the past, I could just say "Oh thank you so much, but I've got to get home to walk my dog, but I'll text you and we can set up another date next week, I really had a great time." And I could get out of having sex with him tonight, but I never had to aggressively reject him, so he can go on thinking "Maybe this chick doesn't want to have sex with me, but maybe she just cares about her dog so much." It allows both people to walk away not having to do anything they want to do and not being hurt. But so many times, instead of saying "Oh say hi to you dog for me," they'll go "Well surely you can stop in for just 5 minutes! It's a YouTube video!" They are unwilling to accept a polite rejection. And I think for some of them it's because they know that a lot of women when you don't accept their polite rejection, they won't firmly reject you. They'll just go along with it. But I think a lot of men just don't think about why we have these social rules in the first place. It's to save their feelings. And they think things like "Well I don't want anybody to save my feelings just be logical." But they don't actually want that either! I've never had a man respond well to "Hey, just to be clear with you, I'm really enjoying hanging out with you, but I don't want to go to your apartment because I don't want to have sex with you tonight." That's not a thing they'd like to hear!
100 percent; if you straight up said "Hey, just to be clear with you, I'm really enjoying hanging out with you, but I don't want to go to your apartment because I don't want to have sex with you tonight." They would get SO FUCKING BUTTHURT. "What??! That wasn't what I meant at ALL! You're taking this WAY out of context! I just wanted to show you a \*youtube video\*! I wasn't trying to lure you somewhere where I have the upper hand/it's harder for you to say 'no'! I'm a great guy-- I'd never do that!! How DARE you imply I'd do that, even though I LITERALLY JUST TRIED TO DO THAT?'
I’ve met so many of this type of guy and it’s exhausting. The only men who get upset when you have a boundary are the ones who fully intend to violate that boundary if/when given the chance. It is a good way to weed these guys out though. Tell them you don’t want to hang out at their place or yours because you don’t want to have sex with them yet. Watch them implode, then cut it off there.
you’re forgetting- WOW YOU MUST THINK YOURE SPECIAL THAT ID EVEN WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU FATTY
"excellent, neither of us is interested. have a good one" A good one can vary from a good day to a good trip down some stairs, karma gets to choose
Aah a classic.
Yeah, but I can watch a YouTube video on one of our phones. I don't need to go to their place.
Shit, yeah, sorry I'm old. What do the younguns say to trick ladies into their apartments nowadays?
I've been in a steady relationship for two decades now. I have no idea.
Let's get uber eats maybe?
> the implication that going up to a man's apartment after a date means having sex. Everybody knows that that's what that means. So after every date, a man will be like "You've gotta come up to my place after this, there's this hilarious YouTube video I'd like to show you." I'm really glad I read your post bc I'm dumb and I did not know that's what it meant. And now I know I can never hang out in anyone's place after a date.
Great observation, and I wonder how much people being raised online has an effect. Online communication strips nuance and will berate anything that isn't entirely direct. I've found younger generations have a hard time picking up on nuance/indirect communication.
This is one reason why I have a Google Voice number that will ring my cell (and also handles text messages). When I'm safely away, I can block them. I have the Google Voice app on my phone also, in case I am pushed to call or text, but mostly it's them asking for the number.
It's funny because it's not like we do those things to purposefully fuck with them or something, we do roundabout rejections because we've all had at least one man unreasonably blow up at us for more direct rejections
Seriously. A couple years ago I was at a bar with my girlfriends and a guy asked me if he could buy me a drink. I politely said no, but thanks for the offer. Then I turned away from him to keep chatting with my friend. The guy said "excuse me? you don't want a drink?" and I said again "No thank you, I already have one." So he dumped his full beer on my head and threw the empty glass at me, hitting me in the mouth and cutting my lip. Cool.
*WHAT?* That is assault. Honestly, I hear so many stories of girls being harrassed bc there are these crazy guys who take sm offense when a girl doesn't continue the interaction the way they would like and then there are guys accusing girls of leading them on when they are just being polite. It's so confusing to have to speedread a person and then make a quick assessment of what you can say or do to least offend them. I'm sorry this happened to you. I hope he got hit with a police report and record. Not that it would make what he did remotely ok. But these kinds of events are traumatizing.
Not sure if he got in trouble - the bouncers were on him almost immediately. I just wanted to get home. I told them they could call the police if they want but I don't want to be involved. I was assaulted by a man in a bar about 10 years prior and chose to file a report and spent 3 years in and out of court, missing work, just for him to get off so I wasn't interested in doing that again 🥴
Yah the justice system is so flawed and ridiculous but I'm glad the bouncer did his job. I don't blame you for not wanting to drag things out one bit. I'm still really sorry that happened to you tho. I hope the establishment gave him a taste of his own medicine after he left. The audacity for him to do that 😡
That is so fucked up :( I'm so sorry you didn't get justice.
I wish that responding violently to rejection would lead to a 100% guaranteed 15 year prison sentence with no way of getting out of it. It gives all men a bad name. What’s even the point of asking if you’re not allowed to say no?
Probably for the sake of appearances, to make it look like they're giving the woman a choice, when really they have no intention of taking no for an answer.
Agreed, they choose to ignore the fact that we’re doing it because we feel unsafe. They don’t care and they don’t care so much that they provide each other tips to get around it! They’ve already proven they can’t take rejection by trying to skirt around it with these gross tips.
And insist that we must be lying about why we do it. Like the guy who insisted we did it to hide we were rejecting someone for their height.
I think it's perfectly fine to give a tactful roundabout rejection if you're worried about a guy being short with you.
I do it simply because I don't want to be fucking bothered. It pisses me off that men think we should always be smiley and accommodating.
Just look at r/shesaidno for examples of what happens.
That subreddit is already banned.
r/whenwomenrefuse
Just look at r/shesaidno for examples of what happens.
It was banned, maybe you’re thinking of r/WhenWomenRefuse ?
Probably.
>It's funny because it's not like we do those things to purposefully fuck with them or something... I'm sure that's true 95% of the time, but it is kind of funny seeing the dichotomy between this and other comments right around it: unfortunate necessity vs enthusiastic retribution.
I'm not seeing any enthusiastic retribution comments at all?
lol, you know, stuff like this: >ThE MaLe LonEliNeSs EpIdEmIc 😢😢😢
Enthusiastic retribution? Literally where? The only other thing in the thread is women giving other tips for not giving info to men...
lol well this happen to be right above that comment before: >ThE MaLe LonEliNeSs EpIdEmIc 😢😢😢
How is that enthusiastic retribution? No one is happy about this. We (women, primarily) are beyond frustrated that men are experiencing this. We don't want that? We just want men to be accountable for their actions. The male loneliness epidemic is male caused and male perpetuated. Making fun of people that are basically just crying that they can't continue to abuse women and get away with it is NOT enthusiastic retribution. I wish the "male loneliness epidemic" would go away! But that would require a large societal shift so I am not hopeful that will happen, and considering we're slowly shifting towards fascism as a planet (*again* somehow), not in my lifetime
>Making fun of people that are basically just crying that they can't continue to abuse women and get away with it is NOT enthusiastic retribution. I think the toxic womanizers, abusers, and just terrible partners are generally a pretty different demographic from the young, depressed, guys who have largely never had any relationships at all. So I guess it just seemed a little vindictive to even bring it up in this context. But really not that serious, I just thought the contrast was a little funny when it was one comment above this thread.
"be careful, she could give you a fake number" "why don't you just give him a chance?" "he wouldn't have done that if you hadn't of rejected him" 🙄
Wah wah wah just let men shoot their shots who cares if it compromises your physical or mental safety??? You're just a walking vagina anyway, stop withholding sex from me!!!!
ThE MaLe LonEliNeSs EpIdEmIc 😢😢😢dont you care about mens mental health? Selfish bitches!!!! Its your fault incels exist you'll get whats coming to you!! (felt gross typing that because its exactly what they say)
These kind of guys deserve to be played the world’s smallest violin. They act like sex is some kind of life necessity that every good guy is entitled to, and treat every relationship they perceive to be “hypergamous” as if it’s theft of something they were destined to be gifted.
Also the fact that they think they are good guys in the first place with a mentality like that.
Whenever someone posts about how hard it is for men to do online dating, they get the worlds smallest violin 🎻
They deserve to be incels 😂
Men on Reddit: *Constantly berating and spewing misogynistic shit about women* The same men: "I'm so lonely, why doesn't any woman want to date me? 🥺"
Literally this
Exactly. Boo fucking hoo. I didn't acquiesce to some random interrupting my day, taking up my time because he deemed me an acceptable dick receptacle.
“Acceptable Dick Receptacle” is an awesome phrase.
Thank you! I came up with that at eleven, when grown ass men started hitting on me. Can't even have a peaceful childhood because the motherfuckers refuse us the luxury of simply being left alone. No respect for our time, space or humanity.
They really think God placed us here on earth just to sleep with them, like get tf away from me sir 💀
> “I always call immediately so they save my number.” I've somehow seen this "advice" multiple times on reddit. So many CHUDs and "red pillers" think this is some sort of a "boss move" to "call the woman out" We're really in a bad spot. GenZ men are leaning hard into the right wing misogyny and autocratic support and anti-women's rights, anti-LBGTQ, anti-workers rights. GenZ was supposed to be a generation that began to turn society around after decades of right wing Boomer domination. Instead, GenZ men are more right wing than Boomers and it's really fucked up
People always say the conservatives are dying out but the right wing has figured out that they can get young men on their side by using misogyny. You got a group of young men entering a workforce with stagnated wages, unattainable houses, astronomical rent, and when they can't find a date because they are still living with their parents the right wing redirects their anger towards women instead of the current massive inequality that is actually causing their problems. Like how the fuck else has trad wives became a resurgence when hardly anyone can afford to raise a family on just one income? It's because the right wing has decided to use misogyny as a tool to get votes because their actual policies are garbage for anyone but the .1%.
What happens when the number is actually fake? lol then what
What happens when the number is actually fake? lol then what
Not every man handles a direct rejection safely. If they did, maybe women wouldn’t feel the need to resort to these tactics. Too many men think a “no” translates to “work harder for a yes,” or worse, an excuse to berate and insult a woman for daring to say no in the first place. Not all men. But enough men.
r/whenwomenrefuse
This from the gender that start acting like assholes when they are fed up of a relationship in the hopes that _you_ dump _him_. Is that straightforward?
That's just rape culture, honestly. Tricking and manipulating women and trying to get something for nothing, it's all part of rape culture.
This is a sorta funny anecdote but on topic, also prefacing with "I was 19 and in a very safe environment with friends at a house party": Once I gave a guy I didn't want to give my number to my dad's number. The dude immediately texted him something obscene and my dad called him with me standing right there. Watching the look on the guy's face change from "haha I just sent you a dick pic" to "holy shit I'm now talking to this girl's dad who I sent my dick to" was a glorious moment for me. Obviously not an everytime situation. But that time... Priceless.
wow Amazing! You're hella smart!
It's intentional. I'm going to say it again. IT'S INTENTIONAL. Toxic Masculinity can be defined as an interlocking series of myths that are used to prioritize men's feelings (especially their pantsfeelings) over women's safety. This is one of those instances. First, you have violence against women who refuse. We all know that. It's endemic and dangerous and women *die* because of it. But if you complain about it, then it's "just a few bad apples" and "#notallmen" and that crap. Second, you accept that terrible reality. Then you start taking steps to protect yourself. So out comes this story -- "Why don't women just say no!? It's the women's fault for beings o damned roundabout. I don't understand!" That's a *lie*. They understand. If they *don't* understand, they they are willfully ignorant to the point of being evil (or maybe they are 10?). There's are a third and fourth myths that pair with with these two, btw (there are so many but let's stick to these four): Three: "It's so sad women choose to in live in so much fear"/"Are women *really* afraid of that afraid of men." (see the responses to man v bear for that). That's straight up gaslighting -- your actions to prevent your own death/rape/assault are unreasonable and mockable. Four: "Women need to make better decisions." I mean, that's just blaming women for men's actions. We're forced into compromises at every step and then blamed for it not turning out well.
It's group narcissism.
r/whenwomenrefuse
Men firmly believe their feelings are far more important than our lives. They don’t care about our safety. They only care about themselves.
A woman's well-being and safety is more important than any man's feelings.
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. ● If you tell a guy you're not interested, he will reply with "Why?" and keep questioning you, pushing for responses and a conversation you have zero interest in having, all while crossing your boundaries instead of accepting.... NO. ● If you tell a guy you're not interested, suddenly he is shouting all kinds of obscenities he would likely never even utter to his mother. Those words are only reserved for you because he feels so wounded and *rejected.* The same guy who was telling you how beautiful you were 2 minutes ago, is now spewing venom at you and *about* you. You see how easy it is for men to drop their mask?? You can always tell who someone is once they don't get what they want. ● If you tell a guy you're not interested, he takes NO as a challenge. He thinks he needs to work even harder to "get" you. ● If you tell a guy you're not interested, he will threaten violence, assault and other horrific acts of aggression against you. All because you're not interested in dating him. How dare you have preferences. ● If you tell a guy you're Queer or part of the LGBTQIA community, somehow that becomes perverse, and he thinks he can "change" you. Well, now he will never leave you alone. We as women give fake AF phone numbers and whatever else we feel like we need to do TO MAKE IT HOME EACH DAY. We are walking on gotdamn eggshells knowing that *any* guy could snap and try to murder us, assault us in many ways, verbally abuse us, and other horrendous predatory acts. So we smile and clench our teeth having to talk to a guy we said NO to at least 5 different times. So, we give them a phone number to satisfy their thirst and ego, and so we can make it home.... *unscathed.*
There are ways to get a free number as a second number on your phone. A Google number is one way. Use this number instead of a fake number, and only use it for this. Give this number it's own ring. The don't ever answer it, except to 'prove' to a guy that it's a 'real' number.
I’ll say it again, my safety comes before your feelings
My now husband gave me his number instead of requesting mine. It was my first indication that he wasn't a creep.
I think we need to just say: I’m afraid to say yes or no because of how violence is escalated against women.
You're absolutely right to be frustrated by this. The double standard and lack of empathy on display in those comments is really concerning. It's clear that many of these men don't understand (or don't want to understand) the very real safety concerns women face when rejecting someone. They're prioritizing their own hurt feelings over women's physical safety, which is both selfish and potentially dangerous. The "tips" for trapping women into giving real numbers are especially alarming. That's straight-up predatory behavior. It shows a complete disregard for consent and personal boundaries. The fact that calling out this creepy behavior gets downvoted just highlights how normalized this toxic attitude is. Your experiences with rejection gone wrong are unfortunately all too common. The guy who verbally berated you until you agreed to date him? That's coercion and emotional abuse. And the one who stalked you after getting your number? That's exactly why women sometimes feel the need to give fake numbers or roundabout rejections. It's frustrating that these men can't seem to empathize with women's experiences. They're so focused on their own hurt feelings that they can't see the bigger picture of why women might feel unsafe giving direct rejections. You're spot on about the hypocrisy of expecting women to cater to men's feelings while not extending the same courtesy. It's a classic example of male entitlement - the belief that women owe them something just for expressing interest. It's important to keep calling this out and pushing back against these toxic attitudes. Women's safety should always take precedence over men's bruised egos. Maybe someday more men will understand that rejection, even if it stings, isn't nearly as bad as the very real threats women face. Stay strong and keep advocating for yourself and other women. Your safety and comfort matter more than some random guy's feelings.
[Schrodinger's Rapist](https://designmom.com/schrodingers-rapist/), anyone?
You would think if you were to ask someone out, you would want their "yes" to be an enthusiastic one, not a bullied one. These men are so pathetic.
I just don’t understand why you’d want to pressure someone to give you their real number when they already gave you a fake number. “Oh, you don’t like me and you find me scary? Well you don’t get a choice. I’m going to attach myself to you now and force you to spend time with me. If you don’t, I’ll stalk and harass and threaten to kill myself until you’re so desperate and miserable that I can rape you all I like!” What is the fucking point? If I ask someone out and they say “no” (and I rarely asked anyone because I would get to know people first and they’d just ask me if we had a connection) it’s in both of our best interest to just move on and put it behind us. Am I supposed to become some sort of parasite, raping my way into her life? I don’t understand how anyone would be *happy* to do that! If there is a mutual attraction, it will be both obvious and not awkward to swap contact details.
I also feel like it's super strange to be expected to give my personal information to a stranger just because they think I'm hot. Like.... I don't know you! Do you realize you're a complete stranger to me? Everytime a guy asks me for my number or socials after 5 painfully awkward minutes of setup, I always say, "Sorry I don't give my info out to people I don't know." In general, 'Shooting your shot' when it comes to cold-approaching is very unusual and weird to me. I don't know why we've made it socially acceptable. It's equivalent to an annoying salesperson who accosts you on the street, except they might actually harm you if you're not tactful with your rejection.
I always just give dudes my dads phone #. I know it by heart and I KNOW he’s going to answer the call or the text 100%. He embarrasses them every time.
What bothers me is the entitlement. A man finds a woman attractive and feels entitled to a date or more. Why is it okay for men to have preferences and not be attracted but a woman has no right to have the same preferences. It's not even personal as they don't know you at all. It's called chemistry and one side won't ever work.
Women don’t owe men a kind or nice rejection, women’s safety is more important than men’s feelings.
Just yesterday a friend said a guy asked for her to dial his number because he "lost his phone" and was hoping he'd hear it ring. It didn't, and then that very same day he was suddenly all up in her texts going "heyyyy". I told her to just block his number, because that behaviour is NOTHING BUT red flags. It's like there's no actual person under that kind of sleazy deception - so, nobody to hurt. Who cares what, if anything, he feels about his little PUA con not working out? He probably does that a hundred times a day, just playing the numbers. So to speak. We shouldn't overestimate how invested these guys are in any particular target - they do this all day long, to everybody they'd like to fuck.
Im a man and also did that shit at aroun 20-22 (29 now) no idea why. I was figuring dating out. I simply didn't yet learned the basic principle of human realtions : its two sided, and only two sided. There is no way to trick someone to daing you. They need to want to meet with you. Such behaviour is childish. When anyone gives me their number my whole life i automatically called, and inform the person "yo i just called you so you know mine" and continued convo. They will know its you in two days, if they care. For dating it's a good communicative handle as the girl can confirm she's into you by taking out her phone and adding you or just confirming that it pinged. But If she dosen't dont drag it on, wtf. If its real it adds excitement, if is fake perhaps not act like a creep. What is the expected outcome of standing there checking their phone? "OH YOU SO CLEVER OK HES MY REAL ONE I LOVE YOUR LACK OF MATURITY SO CUTE". I once called when a girl had a phone in her hand (i got the fake number) and she said " you made it awkward dude, not me" We finished a ciggarete and i was the fuck out. I stopped then for good.
I’ve been on the other side. A man gave me a fake number before because I guess he didn’t like the date or me. I gave him my real number. He didn’t appear uncomfortable I just think we weren’t compatible. I texted him to thank him for the meal he bought me and someone else answered. It was embarrassing and I cried. I did not harass him for doing that to me, but I did message him on Tinder saying that if he didn’t like me he could’ve told me to my face. But I guess he wanted to avoid confrontation. It’s hurtful to get a fake number but there’s always a reason for why the person gave one.
I think "can I get your number" needs to be retired, and replaced with "can I give you my number?" The former phrase will make a lot of people uneasy, and even if they agree, you may not be able to tell if they are doing it out of genuine interest or obligation or politeness. The latter phrase says, I am interested in getting to know you so much, I will put myself out there first without asking anything of you. Back in the day, giving out your number just meant they could CALL your HOME and plan a date, maybe leave a message for you if you weren't home. now, a phone number means you can send unsolicited pictures, look you up on socials (many accounts allow or require you to connect a phone #), and more depending on how loose one is with their privacy.
I've seen so many complaints along the lines of "why can't women just be straightforward instead of playing games like fake numbers." As several have rightly pointed out, being straightforward can be dangerous. But also, using soft rejection language is something everyone does in other social contexts. And in those contexts, men understand perfectly well without accusing the other of playing games. From Celia Kitzinger and Hannah Frith, *Just Say No? The Use of Conversation Analysis In Developing A Feminist Perspective On Sexual Refusal:* "Drawing on the conversation analytic literature, and on our own data, we claim that both men and women have a sophisticated ability to convey and to comprehend refusals, including refusals which do not include the word ‘no’, and **we suggest that male claims not to have ‘understood’ refusals which conform to culturally normative patterns can only be heard as self-interested justifications for coercive behaviour**."
Sure it sucks to not get a straight answer, but I don't blame anyone who doesn't. She's doing hopefully what makes her feel most comfortable or what she knows. She may have had, or knows someone who has had, a bad experience. This is why I feel it's important to give my number at the end of interacting instead of asking. A "passing of the ball" to do with as she sees fit. Take it or leave it, and hopefully no pressure. Plus leaving shortly after so there's space to make a decision. Would rather date someone who is interested, not a hostage.
Speaking as an older guy who was last single before cell phones were common, I've never been bothered too much by the lack of a straight answer. Rejection hurts. Getting a few hours, or a day or two, of patting myself on the back for pulling that cute girl actually feels good. You might argue that the high makes the crash worse when I actually call the number and get a pizza place, but in my experience it wasn't. Or at least, it was never worse enough that I would have preferred the public rejection.
Women die or more accurately are freaking Murdered! from rejecting men everyday. We just don't hear about every story on the news.
"Someone in the comments was even giving *tips* for other men to avoid that, saying (word for word) “I always call immediately so they save my number.” Umm… ew??? What in the stalker tips stash is that?? It seemed like the dude had a full awareness of the possibility of a false acceptance too and was also fully aware that method was pressuring someone into giving him the right number and was 100% ok with it. And the replies calling him out for being creepy were ignored and downvoted." Maybe...just maybe...ok I am being a tad bit extreme...but maybe it's a good thing boys don't feel safe approaching girls anymore...so girls get to feel safe...sorry for the ladies who want to get pursued being thrown under the bus but there should be a few less girls suffering from these things
You are absolutely right. I had a *much* older woman (in her 70s) take my phone and text herself and then later send me nudes. It was disconcerting and violating. Probably one of my worst experiences out and about in public, and I can only imagine how much worse it would be as a woman. My challenge has always been that I don't really understand ambiguity. I need to be very directly told what is going on because I don't pick up on more subtle signals. But I also realize the more subtle signals are an extremely important defense mechanism... so it's kind of a lose-lose situation for everyone.
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I have literally no way of knowing if that specific man meant no harm and was just shooting his shot. I’ve given men the benefit of the doubt on this and I’ve gotten burned. When I’ve told these stories, I’ve been blamed for not picking better men. But then if I don’t pick these men, I’m a bitch for rejecting them. And if I reject them too kindly, I’m leading them on to think they have a chance. And if I reject a man in a mean way, I’m a cunt who deserves to die alone. And if I reject by lying, I’m a cruel bitch. But if I go out and he rapes me, this is also my fault. And if I don’t go out and I reject him in the perfect unobjectionable way where no man can get mad, he will still ultimately blame my lack of interest on him for the male loneliness epidemic. There’s literally no winning. /r/whenwomenrefuse
i'm a whole ass lesbian, and it's all the same. I can reject, even on the basis of my sexuality and its still not enough. Lead to me being threatened with rape If you're a woman you can't win. A man's interest in you can be a legit danger to your life
I can definitely see where you’re coming from with this, but I don’t think prioritizing your safety over someone else’s wants is cruel. I think the idea that rejecting someone in such a way is cruel came from the very people who were rejected as a way to denounce and prevent it. More so the point I was getting at is that nobody should owe it to anyone else to cater to their feelings over one’s own, and that should be the accepted standard as long as nobody takes things too far.
Gotta say i appreciate you not misrepresenting my stance and I completely get where you are coming from. I think the whole social situation is really unfortunate that people feel the need to do this. Obviously your personal safety and comfort should be your priority and if you feel this is necessary then it's necessary. It's just regrettable for any decent guy that's trying to get to know someone and is given this sort of false hope. But as always no one should sacrifice their own personal sense of safety to spare a strangers feelings.
It's just regrettable for any decent guy that's trying to get to know someone and is given this sort of false hope. JUST STOP! I dont care if it gives you "false hope" it is NOT our jobs to placate you to make your tiny feelings not hurt.
Oddly enough, this is making me think of what it would be like to feed rats/mice to a snake since I recently applied to work at a reptile store. I’d been thinking about it a lot; my older sibling used to have pet rats, and they were the sweetest little things. If I were to feed a rat to a snake, I’d think about how I’ll never know if it would’ve made a good pet. I’ll never know its temperament or personality, and I’ll never know if it could’ve spent its life with someone as a beloved companion. Though I suppose this anecdote isn’t the best comparison since I don’t think women should be considered as potential partners to a man (if that makes any sense; like the idea that a random woman isn’t automatically a “choice” to pick from), especially if she’s shown no signs of directly reciprocating.
You can do one thing. Idk how dating works, but what if the guy gives his number? Like written on paper or something? Then if the girl is interested she will certainly call, and if not then you know she wasn't interested. No false hope here. I don't think I see any other problem so far idk, this idea came from a gentleman who commented in this very post. He gives his business card or phone number instead of waiting around typing someone else's number.
I gotta be real, the phrase "shoot their shot" kinda pisses me off at this point. Like, men are stealing women's phone numbers and addresses from their work systems and using it to "shoot their shot" and other men defend this. Frankly, most of the time you shoot a basketball you miss. If men could shoot their shot AND accept rejection, no one would need to be afraid to give out their number to begin with.
its not cruel. Its a way to stay safe. How are women supposed to know if the guy won't become an obsessive stalker? There is no way.
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Denying a stranger the chance to date me is not cruelty, you entitled swine.
it's not an act of cruelty... What's cruel is that women live in a world where we have to be cautious and afraid of things like this, but that's reality and what women have to deal with
The cost of being mildly embarrassed when you text and get a reply saying ‘wrong number’ Like I have been given a wrong number. What’s the harm? What’s the cost? It felt like essentially nothing to me.
Hey I mean this very kindly: fuck your shot.
I'll say it unkindly; he can take his shot and go shove it up his ass where it belongs. As if women aren't routinely attacked, stalked, raped, or MURDERED for saying 'Sorry, no!'
Oh... look... a wild 'But not ALL men!' You're in the wrong subreddit for that, buddy.
What did they say? Their comment got removed asap
Some absolute drivel about how AKSHUALLY most men aren't like that, and that it's CRUEL to treat a guy who's 'just shooting his shot' like that -\_-
Why do they come here to do that? Seriously!
Well I could make a joke about men and inserting themselves into places women don't want or need them, but I feel like it would hit too close to reality and make us both sad.
Giving out a fake number is not rejection, it's misleading someone into a fake belief... usually happens when girl meets boys she has no intention of dating and proceeds to bask in his attention and generosity creating a sense of mutual attraction because well... she can. Rejection is simply not giving out your number to men you have zero interest in. This starts with not entertaining their advances, (no matter how flattering or money saving they are) and often ends, rather quickly, with no number requests due to insufficient time/ufavorable conditions... Even when they do, it's easier to decline due to no false interest created just to get one's 'attention tank' filled, or drinks paid, etc... 'Roundabout Rejections' and 'fake acceptence' I'm not familiar with, but Google tells me they just prove my point.