Isn't the entire history of Isreal a Jewish group wanting their land back?Ā Given there is a history of them being in the region that predates Islam? I'm not saying they are correct, but your direct comparison to indigenous people wanting their land back and Palestinians is ironic considering that is the argument made by Zionist groups.
You are now trying to frame this as a religious issue when it is predominantly a political one, considering that the people in the land are Muslims and Christians as well. It's also important to recognize that there are groups of Jews who oppose what is currently happening. The issue is with Zionists, not Jews.
I'm not trying to frame anything. My understanding of history from material I have read is that post WW2 there was a Jewish group that wanted to form a homeland after having gone through the holocaust, have I misunderstood? Maybe saying the entire history is an overstatement. Yes the history in the region is very nuanced, which is why I am in no position to parade around chanting free Palestinian, or to support the Israeli state for that matter.
You're correct about the post-World War II aspect, but historically, Jews were expelled from many parts of Europe and other regions throughout history. They certainly have every right to a homeland, just like anyone else. However, consider if they were given a portion of Germany, Italy, France, or UK (places from which they were expelled) and then attempted to take over the entire country. Do you think the world or even the Germans, French, Italians, and British would allow that to happen and be content to be displaced by them? I honestly don't think so.
Most of the Jews living in Israel are Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews from the Middle East. They are the ones that were expelled, around 800 000 of them from ME countries. Jews always had a presence in Israel even after colonization from different empires.
The TLDR is the British tried to draw borders and failed spectacularly. Palestinians thought it was unfair as half of the country/state had been given to Israel even though they were a fraction of the population. They argued it violated the UN charter to the right of self determination. Ben Gurion (Israeli PM) stated that "this partition plan was the start of Israelās eventual conquest of the entire region and that the agreement and borders are never permanent". Palestinians with the support of other Arab countries tried to take their land back by force which resulted in the 1948 war in which over 700,000 Palestinian civilians were dispossessed of their land and homes (Look up Canadian Japanese internment camps and turn that up by 50 times) which is known as the Nakba. Horrible massacres and atrocities against both Israeli and Palestinian civilians were committed by either side. Since then Palestinians have been under brutal Israeli oppression and occupation.
As a commenter mentioned, this is a very short TLDR that does not grasp every aspect of the conflict. There is much more nuance to this. Do your own research from credible sources, know what your values are, and know what you're actually protesting for instead of blindly following a group.
[Manna, Adel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adel_Manna)Ā (2022).Ā [Nakba and Survival: The Story of Palestinians Who Remained in Haifa and the Galilee, 1948-1956](https://luminosoa.org/site/books/m/10.1525/luminos.129/).Ā [University of California Press](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California_Press).Ā [doi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doi_(identifier)):[10.1525/luminos.129](https://doi.org/10.1525%2Fluminos.129).Ā [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier))Ā [978-0-520-38936-6](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-520-38936-6).
David McDowall (1990).Ā *Palestine and Israel: The Uprising and Beyond*. I.B. Tauris. p.Ā 193.Ā [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier))Ā [9780755612581](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780755612581).
[https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/](https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/)
[https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/japanese-internment-banished-and-beyond-tears-feature](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/japanese-internment-banished-and-beyond-tears-feature)
Your 'TLDR' is full of omissions, mistakes, and awful analogies. I'd encourage people who want an actually balanced perspective to read one of the posts at r/askHistorians, [like this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/195odb9/why_did_the_un_sign_off_on_the_annexation_of/) or ask your own questions there.
>The TLDR is the British tried to draw borders and failed spectacularly.
I think you're conflating the British Peel report of '37 with the UN Partition plan of 1947.
Both of these were attempts to resolve the problem of [intercommunal violence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal_conflict_in_Mandatory_Palestine) that started with anti-Jewish Riots in the 20s and escalated from there.
> Palestinians thought it was unfair as half of the country/state had been given to Israel even though they were a fraction of the population
[The Peel report allotted 20% of the land to the Jewish inhabitants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission), not half. Which is roughly in tune with the proportion of the population they represented ([17% in 1931](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)\). But that's not giving 'all' of it to them- you omitted [the fact that Jews already owned land they had settled on with purchase from the various land-owners](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Palestine_Land_ownership_by_sub-district_%281945%29.jpg).
[The UN Partition plan of '47](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine), on the other hand, allotted a more split distribution of land, but by that point both the Jewish population and the conflict had grown tremendously.
> Ben Gurion (Israeli PM) stated that "this partition plan was the start of Israelās eventual conquest of the entire region..."
While Ben Gurion did express in private views that a partition could be the starting point for expansion, rather than the final stage, for the territory of a Jewish state- I couldn't find any source for the exact quote you're attributing to him. It seems extremely inflammatory, and many false quotes have been attributed to DBG over the years. Either way, quotes about the partition were not in his eventual capacity as Israeli PM because, of course, Israel and it's government did not exist at the time.
But importantly, NEITHER of these partition plans were implemented as they were rejected by the Arab parties, with the Jewish settlers eventually rejecting the Peel partition as well. Both the UN and the British withdrew their forces, which led to...
>Palestinians with the support of other Arab countries tried to take their land back by force
Let's call it what it is- they attempted an ethnic cleansing where they would '[drive the Jews into the sea](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiEXG_JuVTLRIYzKajTM0E3U53fz0Tw7f-SP2l3EdQK1GubZisnR5IsACTh6-GymHyCBDutWdLJurD2M13bkXm0acChRm-ISVFmpdMhOsxehDBP46DfOhMdVQaVa_P-hNCGl45MrQ/w537-h876/april48.jpg)'. Arab League General Secretary Abd al-Rahman Azzam [promised](https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2018/03/31/the-two-state-solution-vs-the-peace-process-and-why-the-distinction-is-critical/) "This will be a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Tartar massacre or the Crusader wars."
The Jewish population by necessity responded in kind, simply more effectively.
>Look up Canadian Japanese internment camps
A displaced-persons refugee camp is not at all the same thing as an internment camp. It is self governing or governed by an NGO, not a hostile force, and occupants have a great deal more freedom. In the case of Gaza and the West Bank, they were occupied and administered by Egypt and Jordan following 1948, not Israel. There were Israeli internment camp for Enemy POWs, but they numbered 6,000 occupants at max.
>Since then Palestinians have been under brutal Israeli oppression and occupation.
The occupation of Gaza and the West Bank only began in the Six-day war 1967 with Jordan and Egypt, 20 years later- so your 'since then' is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Furthermore, the occupation of Gaza ended in 2005, two decades ago.
This is a very single faceted view of what happened. I would encourage others to do their own due diligence to fill in the many gaps being (perhaps purposefully) left out of this TLDR
It's a damn TLDR, if I included every single POV and opinion, my comment would be 3 pages long. I've included pretty much every major event that happened during that time period backed up by sources. You're welcome to build upon and add more nuance to it as long you provide relevant citations!
Well no, after 1948 Israel unlawfully "annexed" most of the Palestinian land and continued to occupy regions like West Bank and Gaza (they pulled out in 2005 but still have control over it) and built illegal settlements as well as detention camps for Palestinian civilians who they arbitrarily deem a threat. You also have Israeli settler violence against Palestinians, all in the name of Zionism. You can look at maps from different periods to see just how much land owned by Palestinians was stolen over time.
Are you lying or just ignorant?
The truth is Jordan annexed the west bank and Egypt annexed Gaza. Jordan murdered all the Jews living in their territory in Jerusalem at the time. For more information you can read a real history book, Righteous Victims by Benny Morris and learn real facts instead of the misinformation you are peddling.
One democratic state for Jews, Muslims and Christians, with the right of return to all those who fled during 1948/67.
A 2 state solution is untenable because of security/geography/Jerusalem, and it does nothing to address the non-jews who fled what is now Israel.
You're right that Palestinians won't accept it. But play that out.
Palestinians don't accept it. Groups like Hamas continue to operate, because they don't accept it. Israel views Palestine as an imposition upon its own security, because groups like Hamas still exist. Israel moves to take more control over Palestine to try to stop those groups. Palestine doesn't cooperate fully, and Israel can no longer accept the two-state solution. Israeli actions are then used as the reasoning for why a two-state solution can't work among Palestinians.
Palestine not accepting a two-state solution directly leads to security concerns which leads to Israel not accepting one as well. This is the reason why we never actually solve anything. The solution is not to blame Palestinians. That's just saying that "it's their fault" for the conflict. It might make you feel better, but it's never going to stop the bombs.
Fundamentally, you have to find a deal that both sides can tolerate. If Palestinians won't accept it, it's not fine.
Yea, One State is the only way that those living in refugee camps from 48/67 can get justice. These people fled from what is now Israel, and so it makes no sense for them to go to Gaza or WB.
Did you mean "decree"?
They fled bullets and bombs.
If Israel would just let these civilians come back to where they were living before hostilities, it would do a lot. Sure they may not be Jewish, but Israel already has Muslims and Christians, and is democratic, right? So just let these people back in.
They were not there before, they have been moved recently too. I saw a police car in an area that had been made by moving them. Basically I think they have been put there by the police to protect the protestors from insane stuff that can happen at these things. People with strong counter-views can have access to motor vehicles.
And Hamas is a legit government? Check out how other countries have become independent, eg Lithuania. There are ways to do it without using oneās own people as pawns.
Is Hamas even capable of being a legitimate government the way you think it is? People keep talking like it is, but any Palestinian government elected under the PNA is technically limited to contribute to things like ācultureā, education, and the setup of land under the Oslo accords. As I understand it, besides the Egypt crossing near Rafah, Israel is in complete control of movement in Palestine and controls the water, the power and the flow of people. How can you have a government in these conditions?
Hamas? You mean the children who grew under Israelās oppression and watched their loved ones die? So they decided to join a militia since they donāt have a military to protect their loved ones. Brave children as young as 15 years old join Hamas. Theyāre not a terrorist group, especially Israel has held thousands of hostages and killed thousands before October 7.
Woooow. Thank you so much for being so ākindā because of my autism. āIām sure your kind can feel empathyā is the nicest thing anyoneās ever said to me.
(See, we can even understand sarcasm if we try hard enough! And for the record, I have studied history. I hope your incredibly ableist comment sits well with you.)
I swear to god, there's this really cool and interesting word called **N U A N C E** that both pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian protestors fail to understand.
**JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE IS PRO-ISRAELI DOES NOT MAKE THEM PRO-GENOCIDE.**
**JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE IS PRO-PALESTINIAN DOES NOT MAKE THEM A TERRORIST SYMPATHIZER.**
Hamas is actively taking Israeli civilians hostage. How does being pro-Palestine not make you support terrorism?
**See what happens when you get rid of nuance?**
You are oversimplifying it, being a centrist on every ācomplexā scenario is unintelligent. Israel are on the wrong side, there is no ānuanceā there, itās on the specifics of how to end the attack, etcā¦
It's practically mandatory for one to be a centrist on a complex scenario to have any hope of solving a conflict. You can condemn Hamas' actions against Israeli civilians on Oct. 7th and at the same time, condemn indiscriminate Israeli bombings against Palestinian civilians.
In fact, you are also simplifying it by equating all Israelis perspective with their government. If you want there to be peace, it needs to equally apply to both Israelis and Palestinians. That means removing both Hamas and the current extremist government of Israel.
This is not true. When one side is clearly overpowered and is completely dominating another side through war crimes and genocide, it requires external forces to come in and stop them. It does not require centrists to come in and advocate for the side committing the war crimes and genocide.
Hamas offered to return the hostages on Oct 9th and 10th in exchange for Israel not attacking Gaza. Israel refused. Hamas offered the same deal again multiple times after this, to which Israel said no every time.
Nobody here is getting rid of nuance. But in this specific case, Israel is committing genocide.
āWe left the meeting very disappointed because Netanyahu talked about dismantling Hamas as the goal of the war. He didnāt promise anything regarding the demand to return the hostages. He merely said a military operation in Gaza was needed to serve as leverage for the hostagesā release."
āWe later found out that Hamas had offered on October 9 or 10 to release all the civilian hostages in exchange for the IDF not entering the Strip, but the government rejected the offer.ā
-Haim Rubinstein, Spokesperson for the Families Forum, on his meeting with Netanyahu and the representatives of the hostages' families 3 weeks after Oct 7.
Source:
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/)
[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5069857-hamas-had-offered-on-october-9-or-10-to-release-all-the-civilian-hostages-in-exchange-for-the-idf-not-entering-the-strip-but-the-government-rejected-the-offer](https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5069857-hamas-had-offered-on-october-9-or-10-to-release-all-the-civilian-hostages-in-exchange-for-the-idf-not-entering-the-strip-but-the-government-rejected-the-offer)
Thanks, was completely unaware of this. It still doesn't change the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization, however, it's pretty certain that they are not the major obstacle preventing peace in the region. Israel even killed three of their own hostages so I severely doubt their primary goal is to save them
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QziM751Jfy0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QziM751Jfy0)
This guy explains it really well and what we all need to do moving forwards.
Thereās Israel the authoritarian regime, & Israel the nation - you could support the nation (want a country for you & your people) without supporting the bad peopleās war crimes against civilians
I would argue that if you truly loved your country you would criticize it - which plenty of Israeli Jews are doing (who either advocate for 2 states or 1 state with freedom of religion & democracy for both groups)
You're absolutely right - but the Israeli jews who are pro-"Israel the nation" are NOT calling themselves "pro-Israeli" when engaging in discussions about Palestine. From my experience, ONLY those who are pro-"Israel the authoritarian regime" label themselves as such.
How can you possibly say that. That is so sad. Let me guess, youāve never been there? Israel is the most liberal, democratic, and progressive country in the Middle East. Which is why the US is keeping them so close. All the other countries canāt even get along with their own citizens.
By the way, 21.1% of the Israeli population are Arabs. The Israeli Knesset (Israelās parliament) has 10 Arab members. That is not a country that hates Arab people. I have news for you, when you support these ineffective boycott lists, you also punishing the many Arabs who live in Israel happily. As if thatās not enough, all the street and informational signs in Israel have Hebrew, Arabic and English.
I want to be clear, most Israeli and Jewish people donāt support Netanyahu. He has not been a progressive leader for Israel at all. But, the very fact that Israelis have been trying to get him out of power for YEARS, tells you that Israeliās are open to a different way of doing things. But if Hamas is gonna attack Israel, no matter left of right, it is in the Jewish and Zionist nature to defend ourselves. Despite being there for thousands of years (Sephardic Jews), and there being archeological evidence of that, Ashkenazi Jews living in parts of Europe were slaughtered by Nazi soldiers solely for being Jewish. Donāt you think the Jewish people have some reason to be untrustworthy of most people? I mean, all of Germany turned on them, itās reasonable to have trust issues. ESPECIALLY, because Israel is surrounded by countries run by terrorists organizations and jihadist extremist who HATE Jewish people.
First paragraph: liberal governments can still be authoritarian - but again semantics, if you wanna argue its not authoritarian then go off but my point stands in that ethnically cleansing a population of Palestinians is still something terrible. Regardless of what the country does to itself, it commits war crimes by intentionally targeting civilians
Second paragraph: yes Iām more then familiar, one of the first points of research I did on this topic was speaking to members of the Israeli working class who made it to Canada or Saudi Arabia (the countries I lived in at the time) - but again relevance? There were Ukrainians in the Bolshevik party of the USSR back in the day but that didnāt stop them from committing a genocide there ā so the only metric Iām willingly measure is the end result, which is an authoritarian regime targeting civilians
Third paragraph: āif Hamas is going to attack Israelā ā thats precisely the issue, if Israel attacked Hamas back in an attempt to get rid of them then nobody would care, but thats not whatās happening. You can defend your country without killing civilians. Israel bombed a total of 36 hospitals (some repeatedly) (source: https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/09/israel-gaza-health-care-hospitals-genocide-icj/#:~:text=24%2C%2030%20of%20Gaza's%2036,aid%20convoys%2C%20and%20access%20roads.) ā bombing hospitals & killing civilians is not an attack on Hamas, its an attack on the innocent people who should be given a chance to participate in Israeli society or should get a portion of the land to self govern.
& on your final point: ok sure, Jews have intergenerational trauma - & as someone who has had to renounce her Saudi Arabian citizenship due to political reasons by no means do I have any sympathy for Israel/Palestines neighbours. & of course the world should do their best to fix these issues (give the Jews enough land to live & the right to self govern) - but just because those basic needs werenāt met until recently doesnāt give the Israeli state an excuse to take out their anger on civilians. We can put international pressure to get the arabic dictatorships out of Israeli & Palestinian affairs, we can aid the issues happening in Israel, & help heal the wounds of the Jewish people ā all without committing genocide on Palestine
Tl;DR: we agree that Israel has a right to exist & defend itself, we agree Jews need somewhere to get set up & have a country, & I agree that the Arab nations are terrible (as someone who was born in Saudi) ā but none of that gives a government the right to intentionally target civilians & kill 34000 people (most of whom were kids)
Btw. My comment that was pasted from another thread is not implying you personally support or encourage Hamasā actions. This is just my argument for people using the term genocide in the context of Israel.
Iāve replied in another thread. Iāll paste this previous thread regarding Israel committing āgenocideā in Gaza. I believe my comment was in reference to another Reddit regarding the encampments.
On most occasions, I tend to avoid comparing two conflicts with each other. However, if strong words/phrases like āgenocideā and āethnic cleansingā are being wrongfully used, I think itās rather fair to statistically compare whatās going on in Gaza to the Rwandan Genocide from April 7th, 1994 to July 15th, 1994.
For some background, the Rwandan Genocide lasted 100 days and was a civil unrest between the Hutu and the Tutsi ethnic group. In this case, the Tutsi population was targeted and slaughtered just for being Tutsi. Similar to the Holocaust, neighbours who once supported each other, turned against each other and slaughtered one another. Itās important to note that the uprising was mainly advertised through radio broadcasts and ground communication. Most of the fatal attacks were done with sticks and stones found on the ground. The Hutus murdered (approx) 800,000 Tutsi civilians SOLEY because of their ethnic group.
If you are on the same page as me, I hope we can both come to the conclusion that very little military equipment was provided and used during this Genocide. Infact, the idea that roughly one million civilians were murdered in such a short period, without loads of military equipment shocks most historians today.
Ok, letās keep this in mind while I quickly switch subjects.
āļøI feel it is crucial to separate Hamas from Gaza Civilians, unfortunately, Hamas is the government of Gaza and is also active in parts of the West Bank āļø
Firstly, Pro-Palestinians (and Pro-Hamas supporters) often express their concerns regarding how strong the Israeli Army is, claiming Gaza is no military match against Israel. Most Gaza civilians lack access to clean water, let alone military equipment. But those who state this, fail to mention two things. First, Israel withdrew from Gaza on September 22nd, 2005. Meaning, from that point on (I would agree before too) Israel had no responsibility to provide any sort of support to Gaza Civilians. Hamas finally gained control over Gaza, but took absolutely no responsibility for their civilians. You canāt just take over a country just to say you wanted it, and not take along the responsibility that comes with a country.
Responsibility includes safety, security and education of civilians. Hamas has done neither of those three. Instead, Hamas has built underground tunnels (equivalent to half of New Yorkās subway system) for themselves, and themselves only. Hamas officials donāt deny this either, why are you?!
Second, contrary to what most people think today, October 7th, 2023 DID in fact happen. If you donāt believe me, you can watch Hamas recorded video proof of them slaughtering, raping, beheading, burning and abducting innocent Israeli civilians. Hamas isnāt even denying October 7th happened, why are you?! October 7th required an immense amount of preparation, Hamas members and most importantly, artillery. It doesnāt take a business degree to realize, it takes MONEY to obtain such large amounts of artillery. Hamas does have the money, and the military capabilities, they just donāt allocate them in a way that would protect Gaza civilians.
The truth is, if Hamas put down their weapons, Israel would stop and there would be no need for Gaza civilians to have weapons. If you donāt believe this, you donāt have basic human logic. Most animals in the wild avoid conflict as long as theyāre being left alone.
Israel is NO different from any other country. If Canada was provoked and invaded, Iām sure Canada would defend themselves in a heart beat, and you wouldnāt have any objections. People only seem to empathize when something tragic happens in their own country. No one gives Israel the same chance, invading a country, and murdering 1,160 INNOCENT civilians, is a fair warrant for a country to defend themselves. Keep in mind, there are still hostages in Gaza right now, yet I donāt see Pro-Palestinians advocating for their rights. Iām truly sorry that Gaza is run by Hamas, and that the money going to a terrorist group is not being properly allocated. Israel wants Hamas gone. If Israel doesnāt defeat them, North America is most likely their next target. Nothing stops jihadist forces from taking over the world.
Time to connect back to the Genocide in Rwanda.
If in 100 days, approximately 1 million Rwandan civilians could be murdered with literal sticks and stones, how is it that the supposed Gaza death toll is at 34,700 after 212 days of war (including October 7th because, yes, it did happen)? Not to forget, Israelās military is quite powerful. IF Israel was going into Gaza with INTENTION of GENOCIDE, the previous population of Gaza (2.2 million, estimated) would be practically wiped out. This is how statisticianās do their job, by comparing events, they are able to spot any discrepancies. Of course, the accuracy of a statisticianās estimations rely heavily on whether the original reports are accurate. Considering The Gaza Health Ministry is run by Hamas (worldwide recognized terrorist organization), I gather the reported information that is assessed by the statisticians isnāt all that accurate. Hamas canāt even use their tiny little brains to hide obvious discrepancies in their death toll reports. Hamas and the Palestine Liberation Organization have documented history of inflating numbers to gain empathy from the West. I hope that Hamas is defeated and Gaza civilians are given the same opportunity to live a peaceful and prosperous life as any other country.
āāā-I want to be CRYSTAL CLEAR, I am NOT discounting human life, even 1 civilian death in my eyes is a tragedy. No matter your religion, ethnicity, and sexual orientation (except Hamas). āāāāā
So, to those of you protesting at this encampment, and making one of the requirements to enter this encampment (on public property) solidarity for the people of Palestine, not excluding Hamas (when explicitly asked) you are the problem.
This is not getting the world anywhere closer to peace. I hope others with a heart and brain can agree that Hamas is the number one enemy. Not Israel, not Zionists and for sure not the Jewish people.
Also, using Zionist as a derogatory term just shows how ignorant supposedly āsmartā UBC students are.
Also downvoting my comment doesnāt make what I said any less true.
If you look more into this issue you'll find that it's practically impossible to resolve the conflict peacefully. You just can't expect people to forget about the hatred and opposition that had been in their bloods for generations and live happily ever after. And innocent people are dying in every second. So in this case, you can either support your side and condemn the other in the hopes of saving some of your own people, or trying to be smart and logical and achieve nothing.
Actually, you can expect this - have you read any history, of any areas of land going back for 3000 years? You do realize that many generations of groups have hated each other, nursed those hates and kept them alive for generations, fought each other, often many times over generations and then, eventually, those human groups finally got to a more mature place where they stopped nursing their hatreds and moved on and moved forward, working together peacefully - most of humankind and nations fit into this model.
We ALL come from a background, possibly hundreds versus decades ago, where some group was dominant and had power over our forebears - all of us, so to say that itās impossible to move forward just speaks to your complete lack of education.
People also tend to mistake self-contradiction for nuance, because being "nuanced" makes you sound sophisticated, whereas in truth, you've actually just assembled a collection of facts into an incoherent "position" like your first plate at Uncle Willy's.
Then why arenāt they doing that? They have bombed more hospitals & civilians then Hamas bases & insurgents ā this isnāt about terrorists, its about ethnic clensing
You mean to tell me all 24 hospitals had Hamas bases inside of them? Firstly: source, & secondly: If that were the case why didnāt Israel do an infantry invasion into wherever the bases were - that way hardly any civilians would have died
Israel intentionally targeted civilians & pretending otherwise is a fools errand
Iām familiar with how tunnels work - why didnāt Israel survey the area & find passage into the tunnels? & after that why didnāt they use their infantry & all the tech NATO taxpayer money has payed for to flush Hamas out from the tunnel without deleting the entire hospital
Iām familiar - but its still no excuse for israel to bomb civilians - plenty of militaries have managed to handle such targets without killing civilians so I expect one funded by the west & a nation born of war to do similar
Again: source? I still see no evidence of that
But even if that was the case: the Israeli military could have occupied the hospitals, or moved all the civilians inside elsewhere, or opened hospitals the Palestinians could use outside of space Hamas could smuggle guns to ā there are plenty of solutions here that donāt involve killing kids in cold blood
I like how you responded with that while completely ignoring the fact israel could have done this without killing tens of thousands of innocents & bombing hospitals
So you just assumed there were 25,000 terrorists? We have as much evidence there were 25 terrorists
& as for the Palestinians: the UN has declared over 34,262 civilan deaths
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-157
I didnāt say there were definitely 25 terrorists, I just said that because we have no idea how many terrorists there actually are
But none the less, Israel has what? 170,000 active solders? Thatās more then enough to run a military occupation, gather intel on Hamas, & destroy their bases, & respond to threats without killing over 34,000 people
Iām a Jewish student and the encampment makes me not want to go to campus. Iām glad the term is over so this is not a problem. At the same time, I wish these pro-Israel protestors werenāt there either. It just enflames the situation and it gives the encampment more attention, and probably boldens their resolve. It also feels like it feeds into the soccer game mentality of Israeli vs Palestine, that one necessarily erases the other.
I am so sorry that 15 people downvoted you SIMPLY for stating youāre Jewish. Being on campus right now is volatile, and if anyone denies that, they are privileged.
How? I think this because the student body is friendly to Jews but extremely distrustful of governments who kill civilians & kids - how on earth does that make me privileged? Ad hom right there
How do you figure itās an authoritarian government? I would love to hear your opinions, and maybe your personal experiences? It seems you know a decent amount.
Itās authoritarian because they are forcing their will on the Palestinian people - forcing them to be unable to build a society or have a future for their kids or establish a government that isnāt a bunch of terrorists
& on top of that: any state that commits war crimes (like killing 34,000 civilians, many of whom were kids) in the name of an ideology (Zionism) is authoritarian
& if you wanna argue for a different definition of authoritarian go off, IDC - my point still stands in that you can get mad at this BS without being anti Semitic - in fact a lot of the Jews I know are anti Zionist & criticize the government of Israel (for some of them they criticize the government in parallel to wanting a less violent nation to call Israel & home)
Clearly you havenāt been keeping up. Firstly, those at the encampment are being encouraged by Samidoun, an āorganizationā who CELEBRATES October 7th. Killing is NOT Palestinian resistance, if you do believe October 7th is rightful Palestinian resistance, then by that logic, Israel going into Gaza is Israeli resistance. You could argue that Israel going into Gaza is causing civilian casualties, but October 7th resulted in that too, infact thatās the only intention Hamas had. Secondly, it is absolutely reasonable that a Jewish student would fear the encampments. The pro Palestinians and pro Hamas supporters took a Kanye West song, and subbed it with antifada (call for a violent uprising). In case you arenāt aware, Kanye West is OUTWARDLY antisemitic. Recently expressing he agreed with what Hitler wanted. So I think itās rather FAIR to be Jewish and fear those at these encampments. They could have picked any song by ANY artist, and they picked Kanye? 100% not a coincidence.
I donāt see how you can bring up Samidoun in good faith - neither me nor the encampment leaders nor do the pro Palestine organizations I reside with support October 7th - October 7th was bad but that doesnāt justify what Israel did
Therefore: I ask you make this point again without pretending any of us support oct 7
ā
As for the Kanye West thing: I donāt mean to sound obnoxious, but source? & even if they did thatās just mainstream music & I really donāt see the leap from that to anti semitism (the art & artist are separate remember?)
Stop pretending the encampment is anti Semitic, its not, the movement is about civilian lives & an indigenous group of people keeping their land & giving everyone the rights to life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness ā not anti semitism
All I can see is you have run out of reasons to defend an authoritarian regime which kills innocents & are now going to attempt to bash the movement
It is absolutely necessary to bring up Samidoun. Also, not you saying october 7th doesnāt justify Israelās actions taken against Hamas. Not my fault or yours that Hamas has ZERO respect and value for their civilian lives. You just canāt be wrong. I wound love you to condemn Hamas in your next reply. Tell me every reason why what Hamas did was wrong. If you canāt do that, there is no point in even having a discussion with you. And I mean it, I truly want to have dialogue, but I will not continue if the person I am conversing with canāt condemn Hamas. Everybody there, is actively encouraged by Samidoun to continue their encampment. If you are still at the encampment after Samidoun has encouraged it, and your moral compass canāt take over and say āwait, if October 7th was bad, how come the encampment Iām supporting and going to is being advertised and encouraged by an organization that thinks October 7th was good?ā By association, any Jewish or intellectual individual assumes if youāre at these encampments, you in relation believe October 7th was a victorious day. Samidoun HEAVILY advertised the encampment. THE LEADER, CHARLOTTE KATES was ARRESTED THERE! Thats like blaming an officer for questioning you when being friends with a murder and present at the crime scene.
But fine, if you claim I should pretend that most of these supporters are there in good faith and condemn October 7th, I STILL have reasons why they are not doing ANY side any good. Firstly, I agree Pro-Israel protesters should not have come. It only aggravates and inflames the tension. But letās face it, should Pro-Palestinians be CAMPING out in a field on public property denying Pro-Israel and Zionist students entry? No. It goes against UBC bylaws and shocker, itās making the media hate the pro-Palestinian movement more and as far as Iām concerned, Israel is still in Gaza (rightfully).
Now, those at these stupid encampments have never picked up a history book - or even a MAP before Israelās establishment. We all seem to call Israel, Palestine. Now this is just comical. I could go into how stupid and pathetic this is for years. But I have some self control, and will spare you of the painful truth. Iāll just point out two things. It was never Palestine. More accurately it was the British Mandate of Palestine. Which means, the invention of āPalestineā was a colonial invention. Yelling Palestine will be free then following it with āPalestinians are indigenous to the landā is so ironic. Itās genuinely hilarious and sad how pro Palestinians have no ability to make simple connections. The issue is, history has been rewritten. And no, this is not victim complex, you can even see history being rewritten with Donald Trump and Joe Biden. Itās not only happening in regard to āPalestinianā history. So if we want to get technical, they shouldnāt be saying āfree Palestineā they should be saying āfree the British mandate of Palestineā.
Secondly, the name Palestine ironically comes from the Hebrew word āPeleshā, meaning to invade. In the first Century, after the Romans invaded the area and defeated the Hasmonean Dynasty, the autonomy the Jewish people had enjoyed was abruptly taken away. To add insult to injury, the Romans called it Philistine; an attempt to insult the Jewish people, rubbing it in their faces that they had been invaded and their autonomy had been stripped. Moreover, Philistine was considered a region in the area. Much like the āKootenaysā or the āOkanaganā are regions in British Columbia.
Definitely not done. Thereās been a video circulating on YouTube that shows what the encampment is like on the inside to those who have been EXCLUDED from entering (donāt forget, itās public property š„°). In this video a person attending and possibly in charge of this encampment demanded that the woman filming this video prior to entering, state she is in solidarity of the people of Gaza (hey, at least theyāre acknowledging itās Gaza and NOT Palestineā¦ some improvement). When asked if it excludes Hamas members, he said something along the lines of solidarity for everyone in Gaza. Never outwardly confirming Hamas is excluded from the solidarity of Gaza civilians. What a joke. We literally have students who support Hamas on our campus and youāre still denying this encampment is doing any good! People in the encampment either deny and/ or celebrate October 7th, claiming its Palestinian resistance. Then Israel going into Gaza is Israeli resistance. Logic must go both ways. Also it makes no sense as to why some deny October 7th and some still celebrate it. Donāt you have to acknowledge October 7th happened to celebrate it? If they canāt decide, surely I canāt reason.
Source for Kanye West: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6cqOGpxDv1/?igsh=MTdsYTNpeTQxa3ZpYg==
Have at it, be my guest. Itās easy to provide sources when Palestinian instagram accounts incriminate themselves. I still canāt fathom that you believe picking a Kanye West song for a pro Palestinian rally is a coincidence! They could have picked ANY other artist.
So no, I have NOT run out of reasons to defend Israel. What I will say is, pro Palestinians canāt escape the perpetual cycle of self victimization and destruction. Israel left Gaza, giving Gaza to the PLO, and Hamas was later voted in. After 2005, everything in Gaza is no longer Israelās responsibility. Surely you can argue that Israel being in Gaza previously has tainted or hindered the Gaza civilians potential of being more successful, but you could also argue that about the Jewish people. 6 million Jews being murdered, and not even given a chance to be āethnically cleansedā before being gassed, yet the Jewish community is successful and thriving. Look at the trauma and colonization theyāve suffered. There is one Jewish State, and 22 Arab countries. Ever heard of the Muslim Conquest. They literally colonized parts of Africa and Southwest Asia and now theyāre claiming theyāre being colonized? What a joke. Open a history book.
First paragraph:
I reiterate: Samidoun is just you trying to strawman: the people at the encampment & everyone I associate with all agree oct 7 was bad - nobody relevant is defending it.
Sure oct 7 justifies what Israel did to Hamas ā but that doesnāt justify intentionally targeting civilians
āHamas has zero respect for civilans livesā - ok sure go off, but that still doesnāt give Israel an excuse to kill 34000 innocents
& Iāve condemned all sides, Iāve told you repeatedly nobody here is defending Hamas - stop pretending Iām defending him:
killing civilians is wrong ā Hamas is bad
killing civilians is wrong ā Israel is bad
Itās not hard to grasp
Second paragraph:
How are the protestors blocking any other students? Itās an encampment taking place after exams meant to target the school
Third paragraph:
I do wanna clarify: Palestinians being indigenous to the land doesnāt say Israeliās arenāt indigenous to the land - a lot of the activists frequently go off on how they both should have the land (& realistically speaking 15 million people should be more then capable of living in a land as big as that area) - the pro Palestine side just wants an authoritarian government to stop killing civilians (refer back to when I said an Israeli military occupation of the Gaza hospitals would have been cool since that would have hurt Hamas without killing anyone)
Second last paragraph:
Listening to that: Iām still baffled how you can jump from that to anti semitism, like its a song, its not that deep ā if you were to apply this logic to others then anyone listing to mainstream music supports prostitution & drugs cause all pop artists use those
Last paragraph:
Who said I want Israel to pull out? There is nothing wrong with killing terrorists, if Israel only killed members of Hamas nobody would be mad ā its the fact that they targeted civilians that everyoneās mad at. I reiterate: a military occupation of the hospitals to flush Hamas out wouldnāt piss anyone off, but bombing the entire hospital with civilians (again: many were kids) is unacceptable - a military with western support && tech & training as advanced as Israel should be able to clear a tunnel instead of taking innocent lives
Jewish inter generational trauma: once again: Jews can reclaim their identities & culture & build their own nation, but they should be able to do that without them killing civilians - I know Jews have issues & I know how important solving them is, but this doesnāt give anyone the right to kill people
& finally: Arab conquest & Arab nations: yes, Iām familiar with what that is, Iāll have you know that I renounced my Saudi Arabian citizenship due to political reasons. But that said: what does that have to do with civilians being killed? The ruling class of the Arab world did a lot of horrible things, I donāt dispute that ā but that does not give the Israeli ruling class the chance to kill 34000 people unnecessarily
Iām confused, how do you accuse Israel of killing children when Hamas has admitted to inflating civilian casualties, using children as messengers in terrorist negotiations and Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of one of the founders of Hamas has seen the PLO and Hamas kill innocent children. How do you even have the nerve to accuse Israel of killing children when you continently fail to mention what Hamas had admitted themselves? I suggest you read āThe Son of Hamasā by Yousef. He shows both sides faults. But genuine question, how do you expect Israel to fight fairly against a terrorist organization?
Protesting in front of the Nest at UBC will definitely show em! These protesters are making me desensitized to the whole situation, especially when they all these tents and bs that make student lives more difficult. Take all those flags, tents and whatever other shiny toys you have and go downtown.
Theyrw trying to raise awareness to those in positions of power. I get that you dont like it, but there is protest work being done.
Also obligatory, if a situation that is mildly annoying causes you to "switch sides", you were never that for in the first place
The only way that my life as a student has been made more difficult by the encampment is the chore of listening to people complain about it incessantly
Civil disobedience and protest (imo, others may have diff opinion) is about showing solidarity, advocating for demands, and raising awareness of the issue - and none of that includes catering to individuals who hold such view points ^. Itās not about moulding the issue to be acceptable to people who generally donāt give af anyways, but making it so it canāt be ignored & must be confronted, especially by those in power. No major social change has been made without bothering those attached to the status quo. It doesnāt even make rational sense to cater to those who put their everyday convenience & easy living over having empathy with those experiencing genocide our university profits from.
Look man, you are looking too deep for meaning where there isnāt any. Itās just a username.
And secondly, if your way of gathering support for your revolution is attack anyone who donāt resonates with you maybe you should consider a better way.
Ah yes, the terror of...some tents with some people in them...and a few flags and dismantled road signs
Look I support everyone's right to demonstrate, but you can't act like the pro-Israel side here is protesting terror, it's a glorified campsite not an armed militia
The Israeli government have killed more people then Hamas ever has ā you support the Israeli government, but the pro Palestine protests oppose both them & Hamas ā so if anyone is anti terror its the pro Palestinian activists & if anyone is standing for terror its you
"we don't want no two states, we want all of 48" is what they have been chanting today...
Why did I think that means they are about to invade the lower 48 lmao
Uh oh š
Ohhhh can't wait to hear how some members of this subreddit will justify that!
Itās just like youāre saying ā oh canāt wait to hear how some members of the indigenous people will justify wanting their land backā lmao
If the FN wanted to dismantle Canada as a country I'd imagine there would be some opposition to that as well lmao XD
šæš
Yeah but the other side is justifiable enough yk ? Normal people wanting their land back
please shut the fuck up with you justifying genocide
??? Iām justifying the Pro-Palestine protests
Isn't the entire history of Isreal a Jewish group wanting their land back?Ā Given there is a history of them being in the region that predates Islam? I'm not saying they are correct, but your direct comparison to indigenous people wanting their land back and Palestinians is ironic considering that is the argument made by Zionist groups.
You are now trying to frame this as a religious issue when it is predominantly a political one, considering that the people in the land are Muslims and Christians as well. It's also important to recognize that there are groups of Jews who oppose what is currently happening. The issue is with Zionists, not Jews.
I'm not trying to frame anything. My understanding of history from material I have read is that post WW2 there was a Jewish group that wanted to form a homeland after having gone through the holocaust, have I misunderstood? Maybe saying the entire history is an overstatement. Yes the history in the region is very nuanced, which is why I am in no position to parade around chanting free Palestinian, or to support the Israeli state for that matter.
Zionism started long before ww2. What material are you reading? It sounds highly flawed.
You're correct about the post-World War II aspect, but historically, Jews were expelled from many parts of Europe and other regions throughout history. They certainly have every right to a homeland, just like anyone else. However, consider if they were given a portion of Germany, Italy, France, or UK (places from which they were expelled) and then attempted to take over the entire country. Do you think the world or even the Germans, French, Italians, and British would allow that to happen and be content to be displaced by them? I honestly don't think so.
It sounds like you are the one with a particular frame
Most of the Jews living in Israel are Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews from the Middle East. They are the ones that were expelled, around 800 000 of them from ME countries. Jews always had a presence in Israel even after colonization from different empires.
Is that a quote?
From the encampment today? Yes I am pretty sure it is a chant that references a return to the pre 1948 borders (i.e. no Israel)
From the encampment? So from the Palestine supporters?..
Yes
Not the Israeli supporters?..Okay I think I need some education on this issue
The TLDR is the British tried to draw borders and failed spectacularly. Palestinians thought it was unfair as half of the country/state had been given to Israel even though they were a fraction of the population. They argued it violated the UN charter to the right of self determination. Ben Gurion (Israeli PM) stated that "this partition plan was the start of Israelās eventual conquest of the entire region and that the agreement and borders are never permanent". Palestinians with the support of other Arab countries tried to take their land back by force which resulted in the 1948 war in which over 700,000 Palestinian civilians were dispossessed of their land and homes (Look up Canadian Japanese internment camps and turn that up by 50 times) which is known as the Nakba. Horrible massacres and atrocities against both Israeli and Palestinian civilians were committed by either side. Since then Palestinians have been under brutal Israeli oppression and occupation. As a commenter mentioned, this is a very short TLDR that does not grasp every aspect of the conflict. There is much more nuance to this. Do your own research from credible sources, know what your values are, and know what you're actually protesting for instead of blindly following a group. [Manna, Adel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adel_Manna)Ā (2022).Ā [Nakba and Survival: The Story of Palestinians Who Remained in Haifa and the Galilee, 1948-1956](https://luminosoa.org/site/books/m/10.1525/luminos.129/).Ā [University of California Press](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California_Press).Ā [doi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doi_(identifier)):[10.1525/luminos.129](https://doi.org/10.1525%2Fluminos.129).Ā [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier))Ā [978-0-520-38936-6](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-520-38936-6). David McDowall (1990).Ā *Palestine and Israel: The Uprising and Beyond*. I.B. Tauris. p.Ā 193.Ā [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier))Ā [9780755612581](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780755612581). [https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/](https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/) [https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/japanese-internment-banished-and-beyond-tears-feature](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/japanese-internment-banished-and-beyond-tears-feature)
Your 'TLDR' is full of omissions, mistakes, and awful analogies. I'd encourage people who want an actually balanced perspective to read one of the posts at r/askHistorians, [like this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/195odb9/why_did_the_un_sign_off_on_the_annexation_of/) or ask your own questions there. >The TLDR is the British tried to draw borders and failed spectacularly. I think you're conflating the British Peel report of '37 with the UN Partition plan of 1947. Both of these were attempts to resolve the problem of [intercommunal violence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercommunal_conflict_in_Mandatory_Palestine) that started with anti-Jewish Riots in the 20s and escalated from there. > Palestinians thought it was unfair as half of the country/state had been given to Israel even though they were a fraction of the population [The Peel report allotted 20% of the land to the Jewish inhabitants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission), not half. Which is roughly in tune with the proportion of the population they represented ([17% in 1931](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)\). But that's not giving 'all' of it to them- you omitted [the fact that Jews already owned land they had settled on with purchase from the various land-owners](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Palestine_Land_ownership_by_sub-district_%281945%29.jpg). [The UN Partition plan of '47](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine), on the other hand, allotted a more split distribution of land, but by that point both the Jewish population and the conflict had grown tremendously. > Ben Gurion (Israeli PM) stated that "this partition plan was the start of Israelās eventual conquest of the entire region..." While Ben Gurion did express in private views that a partition could be the starting point for expansion, rather than the final stage, for the territory of a Jewish state- I couldn't find any source for the exact quote you're attributing to him. It seems extremely inflammatory, and many false quotes have been attributed to DBG over the years. Either way, quotes about the partition were not in his eventual capacity as Israeli PM because, of course, Israel and it's government did not exist at the time. But importantly, NEITHER of these partition plans were implemented as they were rejected by the Arab parties, with the Jewish settlers eventually rejecting the Peel partition as well. Both the UN and the British withdrew their forces, which led to... >Palestinians with the support of other Arab countries tried to take their land back by force Let's call it what it is- they attempted an ethnic cleansing where they would '[drive the Jews into the sea](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiEXG_JuVTLRIYzKajTM0E3U53fz0Tw7f-SP2l3EdQK1GubZisnR5IsACTh6-GymHyCBDutWdLJurD2M13bkXm0acChRm-ISVFmpdMhOsxehDBP46DfOhMdVQaVa_P-hNCGl45MrQ/w537-h876/april48.jpg)'. Arab League General Secretary Abd al-Rahman Azzam [promised](https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2018/03/31/the-two-state-solution-vs-the-peace-process-and-why-the-distinction-is-critical/) "This will be a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Tartar massacre or the Crusader wars." The Jewish population by necessity responded in kind, simply more effectively. >Look up Canadian Japanese internment camps A displaced-persons refugee camp is not at all the same thing as an internment camp. It is self governing or governed by an NGO, not a hostile force, and occupants have a great deal more freedom. In the case of Gaza and the West Bank, they were occupied and administered by Egypt and Jordan following 1948, not Israel. There were Israeli internment camp for Enemy POWs, but they numbered 6,000 occupants at max. >Since then Palestinians have been under brutal Israeli oppression and occupation. The occupation of Gaza and the West Bank only began in the Six-day war 1967 with Jordan and Egypt, 20 years later- so your 'since then' is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Furthermore, the occupation of Gaza ended in 2005, two decades ago.
Thank god, I was losing brain cells arguing with that guy. Great summary š
This is a very single faceted view of what happened. I would encourage others to do their own due diligence to fill in the many gaps being (perhaps purposefully) left out of this TLDR
It's a damn TLDR, if I included every single POV and opinion, my comment would be 3 pages long. I've included pretty much every major event that happened during that time period backed up by sources. You're welcome to build upon and add more nuance to it as long you provide relevant citations!
Chill. I am just encouraging others to do their own research. Of course no one should learn about issues such as this from a single Reddit post
Okay so the land that they are fighting over, who is their rightful owner by law..Israel right? And how does zionsim play into this?
Well no, after 1948 Israel unlawfully "annexed" most of the Palestinian land and continued to occupy regions like West Bank and Gaza (they pulled out in 2005 but still have control over it) and built illegal settlements as well as detention camps for Palestinian civilians who they arbitrarily deem a threat. You also have Israeli settler violence against Palestinians, all in the name of Zionism. You can look at maps from different periods to see just how much land owned by Palestinians was stolen over time.
Are you lying or just ignorant? The truth is Jordan annexed the west bank and Egypt annexed Gaza. Jordan murdered all the Jews living in their territory in Jerusalem at the time. For more information you can read a real history book, Righteous Victims by Benny Morris and learn real facts instead of the misinformation you are peddling.
Okay so my understating was right. And zionism is what makes them beleive this is okay because it is done all in the name of the bible?
One democratic state for Jews, Muslims and Christians, with the right of return to all those who fled during 1948/67. A 2 state solution is untenable because of security/geography/Jerusalem, and it does nothing to address the non-jews who fled what is now Israel.
2 state solution is fine, Palestinians just wonāt accept it
You're right that Palestinians won't accept it. But play that out. Palestinians don't accept it. Groups like Hamas continue to operate, because they don't accept it. Israel views Palestine as an imposition upon its own security, because groups like Hamas still exist. Israel moves to take more control over Palestine to try to stop those groups. Palestine doesn't cooperate fully, and Israel can no longer accept the two-state solution. Israeli actions are then used as the reasoning for why a two-state solution can't work among Palestinians. Palestine not accepting a two-state solution directly leads to security concerns which leads to Israel not accepting one as well. This is the reason why we never actually solve anything. The solution is not to blame Palestinians. That's just saying that "it's their fault" for the conflict. It might make you feel better, but it's never going to stop the bombs. Fundamentally, you have to find a deal that both sides can tolerate. If Palestinians won't accept it, it's not fine.
Yea, One State is the only way that those living in refugee camps from 48/67 can get justice. These people fled from what is now Israel, and so it makes no sense for them to go to Gaza or WB.
Or maybe, they shouldnāt have fled at the degree of foreign powers,.
Did you mean "decree"? They fled bullets and bombs. If Israel would just let these civilians come back to where they were living before hostilities, it would do a lot. Sure they may not be Jewish, but Israel already has Muslims and Christians, and is democratic, right? So just let these people back in.
There are 48 states there?
it's "bring us back to 48"
Does this make a difference? They are still insinuating that Israel shouldn't exist as a country
Captain UBC: Civil War
I hope they like rain.
Oh..
šæš This could get crazy
It wonāt itās Canada
Honestly true though. UBC is not Columbia in NYC. No one cares.
All I see is the vaunted free speech of the encampment being met with the free speech of people who disagree with it.
Thank god Iām gone at home for this garbage
Damn how did they get the cement blocks there
Those have been there prior
wow i need to go out on campus more
They were not there before, they have been moved recently too. I saw a police car in an area that had been made by moving them. Basically I think they have been put there by the police to protect the protestors from insane stuff that can happen at these things. People with strong counter-views can have access to motor vehicles.
Oh I see that's thoughtful
#FreePalestine
Free Palestine from Hamas!
Oh my bad, didnāt realize my comment wasnāt very clear. Free Palestine from Israel and its genocidal cronies š
And Hamas is a legit government? Check out how other countries have become independent, eg Lithuania. There are ways to do it without using oneās own people as pawns.
Is Hamas even capable of being a legitimate government the way you think it is? People keep talking like it is, but any Palestinian government elected under the PNA is technically limited to contribute to things like ācultureā, education, and the setup of land under the Oslo accords. As I understand it, besides the Egypt crossing near Rafah, Israel is in complete control of movement in Palestine and controls the water, the power and the flow of people. How can you have a government in these conditions?
ā¦AND Hamas, I hope?
Hamas? You mean the children who grew under Israelās oppression and watched their loved ones die? So they decided to join a militia since they donāt have a military to protect their loved ones. Brave children as young as 15 years old join Hamas. Theyāre not a terrorist group, especially Israel has held thousands of hostages and killed thousands before October 7.
Yikes
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Woooow. Thank you so much for being so ākindā because of my autism. āIām sure your kind can feel empathyā is the nicest thing anyoneās ever said to me. (See, we can even understand sarcasm if we try hard enough! And for the record, I have studied history. I hope your incredibly ableist comment sits well with you.)
Watermelon gives me the runs.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I swear to god, there's this really cool and interesting word called **N U A N C E** that both pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian protestors fail to understand. **JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE IS PRO-ISRAELI DOES NOT MAKE THEM PRO-GENOCIDE.** **JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE IS PRO-PALESTINIAN DOES NOT MAKE THEM A TERRORIST SYMPATHIZER.**
Downvoted for mentioning that there is nuance to a complex geopolitical situation is classic and priceless
Omg it's still going haha. I've basically spelled it out for them and they STILL don't understand. How did they even get admitted to UBC fr. š
It seems like you must take a side on Reddit or you will be downvoted to oblivion
True, I'm literally getting my point proven in real time!
This!!! You are rightfully, hoping that people are able to use their critical thinking skillsā¦
Ikr, the fact that I'm getting downvoted to hell basically proves my point haha!
Everyone takes the easy route and wants to virtue signal. Saying free palestine is low effort and makes them look like the good guy.
Israel is actively committing a genocide. How does being pro-Israel not make you a genocide supporter?
Hamas is actively taking Israeli civilians hostage. How does being pro-Palestine not make you support terrorism? **See what happens when you get rid of nuance?**
Itās not Israel v Hamas when Israel are indiscriminate in their attacks. Try tell anyone that the ~15,000 children dead were all Hamas
Great job, you understand what nuance means.
You are oversimplifying it, being a centrist on every ācomplexā scenario is unintelligent. Israel are on the wrong side, there is no ānuanceā there, itās on the specifics of how to end the attack, etcā¦
It's practically mandatory for one to be a centrist on a complex scenario to have any hope of solving a conflict. You can condemn Hamas' actions against Israeli civilians on Oct. 7th and at the same time, condemn indiscriminate Israeli bombings against Palestinian civilians. In fact, you are also simplifying it by equating all Israelis perspective with their government. If you want there to be peace, it needs to equally apply to both Israelis and Palestinians. That means removing both Hamas and the current extremist government of Israel.
This is not true. When one side is clearly overpowered and is completely dominating another side through war crimes and genocide, it requires external forces to come in and stop them. It does not require centrists to come in and advocate for the side committing the war crimes and genocide.
Hamas offered to return the hostages on Oct 9th and 10th in exchange for Israel not attacking Gaza. Israel refused. Hamas offered the same deal again multiple times after this, to which Israel said no every time. Nobody here is getting rid of nuance. But in this specific case, Israel is committing genocide.
"Hamas offered to return the hostages on Oct 9th and 10th in exchange for Israel not attacking Gaza. Israel refused." \[Citation needed\]
āWe left the meeting very disappointed because Netanyahu talked about dismantling Hamas as the goal of the war. He didnāt promise anything regarding the demand to return the hostages. He merely said a military operation in Gaza was needed to serve as leverage for the hostagesā release." āWe later found out that Hamas had offered on October 9 or 10 to release all the civilian hostages in exchange for the IDF not entering the Strip, but the government rejected the offer.ā -Haim Rubinstein, Spokesperson for the Families Forum, on his meeting with Netanyahu and the representatives of the hostages' families 3 weeks after Oct 7. Source: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/) [https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5069857-hamas-had-offered-on-october-9-or-10-to-release-all-the-civilian-hostages-in-exchange-for-the-idf-not-entering-the-strip-but-the-government-rejected-the-offer](https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5069857-hamas-had-offered-on-october-9-or-10-to-release-all-the-civilian-hostages-in-exchange-for-the-idf-not-entering-the-strip-but-the-government-rejected-the-offer)
Thanks, was completely unaware of this. It still doesn't change the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization, however, it's pretty certain that they are not the major obstacle preventing peace in the region. Israel even killed three of their own hostages so I severely doubt their primary goal is to save them
I agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization, and I'm glad you see that the main bad guy here is not Hamas. The death toll ratio is 1:40.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QziM751Jfy0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QziM751Jfy0) This guy explains it really well and what we all need to do moving forwards.
Thereās Israel the authoritarian regime, & Israel the nation - you could support the nation (want a country for you & your people) without supporting the bad peopleās war crimes against civilians I would argue that if you truly loved your country you would criticize it - which plenty of Israeli Jews are doing (who either advocate for 2 states or 1 state with freedom of religion & democracy for both groups)
You're absolutely right - but the Israeli jews who are pro-"Israel the nation" are NOT calling themselves "pro-Israeli" when engaging in discussions about Palestine. From my experience, ONLY those who are pro-"Israel the authoritarian regime" label themselves as such.
Semantic difference, we agree
How can you possibly say that. That is so sad. Let me guess, youāve never been there? Israel is the most liberal, democratic, and progressive country in the Middle East. Which is why the US is keeping them so close. All the other countries canāt even get along with their own citizens. By the way, 21.1% of the Israeli population are Arabs. The Israeli Knesset (Israelās parliament) has 10 Arab members. That is not a country that hates Arab people. I have news for you, when you support these ineffective boycott lists, you also punishing the many Arabs who live in Israel happily. As if thatās not enough, all the street and informational signs in Israel have Hebrew, Arabic and English. I want to be clear, most Israeli and Jewish people donāt support Netanyahu. He has not been a progressive leader for Israel at all. But, the very fact that Israelis have been trying to get him out of power for YEARS, tells you that Israeliās are open to a different way of doing things. But if Hamas is gonna attack Israel, no matter left of right, it is in the Jewish and Zionist nature to defend ourselves. Despite being there for thousands of years (Sephardic Jews), and there being archeological evidence of that, Ashkenazi Jews living in parts of Europe were slaughtered by Nazi soldiers solely for being Jewish. Donāt you think the Jewish people have some reason to be untrustworthy of most people? I mean, all of Germany turned on them, itās reasonable to have trust issues. ESPECIALLY, because Israel is surrounded by countries run by terrorists organizations and jihadist extremist who HATE Jewish people.
First paragraph: liberal governments can still be authoritarian - but again semantics, if you wanna argue its not authoritarian then go off but my point stands in that ethnically cleansing a population of Palestinians is still something terrible. Regardless of what the country does to itself, it commits war crimes by intentionally targeting civilians Second paragraph: yes Iām more then familiar, one of the first points of research I did on this topic was speaking to members of the Israeli working class who made it to Canada or Saudi Arabia (the countries I lived in at the time) - but again relevance? There were Ukrainians in the Bolshevik party of the USSR back in the day but that didnāt stop them from committing a genocide there ā so the only metric Iām willingly measure is the end result, which is an authoritarian regime targeting civilians Third paragraph: āif Hamas is going to attack Israelā ā thats precisely the issue, if Israel attacked Hamas back in an attempt to get rid of them then nobody would care, but thats not whatās happening. You can defend your country without killing civilians. Israel bombed a total of 36 hospitals (some repeatedly) (source: https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/09/israel-gaza-health-care-hospitals-genocide-icj/#:~:text=24%2C%2030%20of%20Gaza's%2036,aid%20convoys%2C%20and%20access%20roads.) ā bombing hospitals & killing civilians is not an attack on Hamas, its an attack on the innocent people who should be given a chance to participate in Israeli society or should get a portion of the land to self govern. & on your final point: ok sure, Jews have intergenerational trauma - & as someone who has had to renounce her Saudi Arabian citizenship due to political reasons by no means do I have any sympathy for Israel/Palestines neighbours. & of course the world should do their best to fix these issues (give the Jews enough land to live & the right to self govern) - but just because those basic needs werenāt met until recently doesnāt give the Israeli state an excuse to take out their anger on civilians. We can put international pressure to get the arabic dictatorships out of Israeli & Palestinian affairs, we can aid the issues happening in Israel, & help heal the wounds of the Jewish people ā all without committing genocide on Palestine Tl;DR: we agree that Israel has a right to exist & defend itself, we agree Jews need somewhere to get set up & have a country, & I agree that the Arab nations are terrible (as someone who was born in Saudi) ā but none of that gives a government the right to intentionally target civilians & kill 34000 people (most of whom were kids)
Btw. My comment that was pasted from another thread is not implying you personally support or encourage Hamasā actions. This is just my argument for people using the term genocide in the context of Israel.
Iāve replied in another thread. Iāll paste this previous thread regarding Israel committing āgenocideā in Gaza. I believe my comment was in reference to another Reddit regarding the encampments. On most occasions, I tend to avoid comparing two conflicts with each other. However, if strong words/phrases like āgenocideā and āethnic cleansingā are being wrongfully used, I think itās rather fair to statistically compare whatās going on in Gaza to the Rwandan Genocide from April 7th, 1994 to July 15th, 1994. For some background, the Rwandan Genocide lasted 100 days and was a civil unrest between the Hutu and the Tutsi ethnic group. In this case, the Tutsi population was targeted and slaughtered just for being Tutsi. Similar to the Holocaust, neighbours who once supported each other, turned against each other and slaughtered one another. Itās important to note that the uprising was mainly advertised through radio broadcasts and ground communication. Most of the fatal attacks were done with sticks and stones found on the ground. The Hutus murdered (approx) 800,000 Tutsi civilians SOLEY because of their ethnic group. If you are on the same page as me, I hope we can both come to the conclusion that very little military equipment was provided and used during this Genocide. Infact, the idea that roughly one million civilians were murdered in such a short period, without loads of military equipment shocks most historians today. Ok, letās keep this in mind while I quickly switch subjects. āļøI feel it is crucial to separate Hamas from Gaza Civilians, unfortunately, Hamas is the government of Gaza and is also active in parts of the West Bank āļø Firstly, Pro-Palestinians (and Pro-Hamas supporters) often express their concerns regarding how strong the Israeli Army is, claiming Gaza is no military match against Israel. Most Gaza civilians lack access to clean water, let alone military equipment. But those who state this, fail to mention two things. First, Israel withdrew from Gaza on September 22nd, 2005. Meaning, from that point on (I would agree before too) Israel had no responsibility to provide any sort of support to Gaza Civilians. Hamas finally gained control over Gaza, but took absolutely no responsibility for their civilians. You canāt just take over a country just to say you wanted it, and not take along the responsibility that comes with a country. Responsibility includes safety, security and education of civilians. Hamas has done neither of those three. Instead, Hamas has built underground tunnels (equivalent to half of New Yorkās subway system) for themselves, and themselves only. Hamas officials donāt deny this either, why are you?! Second, contrary to what most people think today, October 7th, 2023 DID in fact happen. If you donāt believe me, you can watch Hamas recorded video proof of them slaughtering, raping, beheading, burning and abducting innocent Israeli civilians. Hamas isnāt even denying October 7th happened, why are you?! October 7th required an immense amount of preparation, Hamas members and most importantly, artillery. It doesnāt take a business degree to realize, it takes MONEY to obtain such large amounts of artillery. Hamas does have the money, and the military capabilities, they just donāt allocate them in a way that would protect Gaza civilians. The truth is, if Hamas put down their weapons, Israel would stop and there would be no need for Gaza civilians to have weapons. If you donāt believe this, you donāt have basic human logic. Most animals in the wild avoid conflict as long as theyāre being left alone. Israel is NO different from any other country. If Canada was provoked and invaded, Iām sure Canada would defend themselves in a heart beat, and you wouldnāt have any objections. People only seem to empathize when something tragic happens in their own country. No one gives Israel the same chance, invading a country, and murdering 1,160 INNOCENT civilians, is a fair warrant for a country to defend themselves. Keep in mind, there are still hostages in Gaza right now, yet I donāt see Pro-Palestinians advocating for their rights. Iām truly sorry that Gaza is run by Hamas, and that the money going to a terrorist group is not being properly allocated. Israel wants Hamas gone. If Israel doesnāt defeat them, North America is most likely their next target. Nothing stops jihadist forces from taking over the world. Time to connect back to the Genocide in Rwanda. If in 100 days, approximately 1 million Rwandan civilians could be murdered with literal sticks and stones, how is it that the supposed Gaza death toll is at 34,700 after 212 days of war (including October 7th because, yes, it did happen)? Not to forget, Israelās military is quite powerful. IF Israel was going into Gaza with INTENTION of GENOCIDE, the previous population of Gaza (2.2 million, estimated) would be practically wiped out. This is how statisticianās do their job, by comparing events, they are able to spot any discrepancies. Of course, the accuracy of a statisticianās estimations rely heavily on whether the original reports are accurate. Considering The Gaza Health Ministry is run by Hamas (worldwide recognized terrorist organization), I gather the reported information that is assessed by the statisticians isnāt all that accurate. Hamas canāt even use their tiny little brains to hide obvious discrepancies in their death toll reports. Hamas and the Palestine Liberation Organization have documented history of inflating numbers to gain empathy from the West. I hope that Hamas is defeated and Gaza civilians are given the same opportunity to live a peaceful and prosperous life as any other country. āāā-I want to be CRYSTAL CLEAR, I am NOT discounting human life, even 1 civilian death in my eyes is a tragedy. No matter your religion, ethnicity, and sexual orientation (except Hamas). āāāāā So, to those of you protesting at this encampment, and making one of the requirements to enter this encampment (on public property) solidarity for the people of Palestine, not excluding Hamas (when explicitly asked) you are the problem. This is not getting the world anywhere closer to peace. I hope others with a heart and brain can agree that Hamas is the number one enemy. Not Israel, not Zionists and for sure not the Jewish people. Also, using Zionist as a derogatory term just shows how ignorant supposedly āsmartā UBC students are. Also downvoting my comment doesnāt make what I said any less true.
True. But Iād say itās not really the goal of either side to gain a nuanced understanding of the other - especially in this kind of setting.
Well said, the situation is far from black and white.
If you look more into this issue you'll find that it's practically impossible to resolve the conflict peacefully. You just can't expect people to forget about the hatred and opposition that had been in their bloods for generations and live happily ever after. And innocent people are dying in every second. So in this case, you can either support your side and condemn the other in the hopes of saving some of your own people, or trying to be smart and logical and achieve nothing.
Actually, you can expect this - have you read any history, of any areas of land going back for 3000 years? You do realize that many generations of groups have hated each other, nursed those hates and kept them alive for generations, fought each other, often many times over generations and then, eventually, those human groups finally got to a more mature place where they stopped nursing their hatreds and moved on and moved forward, working together peacefully - most of humankind and nations fit into this model. We ALL come from a background, possibly hundreds versus decades ago, where some group was dominant and had power over our forebears - all of us, so to say that itās impossible to move forward just speaks to your complete lack of education.
There actually is a way. It's called Decolonization.
Yeah maybe people should have elected you to be in charge because I know for sure nobody else had succeeded.
People also tend to mistake self-contradiction for nuance, because being "nuanced" makes you sound sophisticated, whereas in truth, you've actually just assembled a collection of facts into an incoherent "position" like your first plate at Uncle Willy's.
Someone should hand out some lightsabers to both sides and make them duel.
I donāt get itā¦ over 32000 people have been killed by Israelā¦ at what point are Israel and its supporters going to be satisfied
When they get the hostages back and get rid of the Hamas terrorist organizationā¦
Then why arenāt they doing that? They have bombed more hospitals & civilians then Hamas bases & insurgents ā this isnāt about terrorists, its about ethnic clensing
Hamas bases are under the hospitals my friend. Maybe you should do some more research
You mean to tell me all 24 hospitals had Hamas bases inside of them? Firstly: source, & secondly: If that were the case why didnāt Israel do an infantry invasion into wherever the bases were - that way hardly any civilians would have died Israel intentionally targeted civilians & pretending otherwise is a fools errand
Not in them, under them. Tunnels, if you havenāt heard of them, thereās no point of conversing with you.
Iām familiar with how tunnels work - why didnāt Israel survey the area & find passage into the tunnels? & after that why didnāt they use their infantry & all the tech NATO taxpayer money has payed for to flush Hamas out from the tunnel without deleting the entire hospital
Did you know Hamas uses their Palestinian civilians as human shields?
Iām familiar - but its still no excuse for israel to bomb civilians - plenty of militaries have managed to handle such targets without killing civilians so I expect one funded by the west & a nation born of war to do similar
Hence, the reason why they use hospitals as their military bases.
Again: source? I still see no evidence of that But even if that was the case: the Israeli military could have occupied the hospitals, or moved all the civilians inside elsewhere, or opened hospitals the Palestinians could use outside of space Hamas could smuggle guns to ā there are plenty of solutions here that donāt involve killing kids in cold blood
Show me your sources, would love to take a look.
Source for what? What claim did I make that needs a source?
I like how you responded with that while completely ignoring the fact israel could have done this without killing tens of thousands of innocents & bombing hospitals
If it was about ethnic cleansing all the Palestinians would be dead by now. But around 15,000 civilians are dead and probably around 25,000 terrorists
Source?
Assumtiptiom. Whatās your source? Hamas?
So you just assumed there were 25,000 terrorists? We have as much evidence there were 25 terrorists & as for the Palestinians: the UN has declared over 34,262 civilan deaths https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-157
Oh yeah youāre right, thereās only 25 terrorists and the rest are innocent civilians. My bad.
Iād love to talk to you about this on the phone or in personā¦ how can I reach you?
PM
At least 1500 terrorists went into Israel on October 7thā¦ so, yes. 1500>25
Source?
I didnāt say there were definitely 25 terrorists, I just said that because we have no idea how many terrorists there actually are But none the less, Israel has what? 170,000 active solders? Thatās more then enough to run a military occupation, gather intel on Hamas, & destroy their bases, & respond to threats without killing over 34,000 people
Showing up at the Palestinian encampment and trying to take it over actually perfectly summarizes Israel's position lmao
The Palestine campers didnāt own this grass fieldš
What? They walked around the field for 20 minutes waiving Israeli and Canadian flags peacefully and then left.
They tried to take it over? Cool story bro
ayo freedom rally people spotted in different attire
It really do be like that š i swear any "progessive" protest the freedom rally ppl just show up and counter protest that
Average canadian discovering the concept of a public protest :
It's cute that either side believes they are making a difference...
What a condescending thing to comment
Iām a Jewish student and the encampment makes me not want to go to campus. Iām glad the term is over so this is not a problem. At the same time, I wish these pro-Israel protestors werenāt there either. It just enflames the situation and it gives the encampment more attention, and probably boldens their resolve. It also feels like it feeds into the soccer game mentality of Israeli vs Palestine, that one necessarily erases the other.
I am so sorry that 15 people downvoted you SIMPLY for stating youāre Jewish. Being on campus right now is volatile, and if anyone denies that, they are privileged.
No - those 15 people downvoted because of completely different reasons Protesting an authoritarian regime ā anti semitism
And no, the fact that you think 15 people downvoted this user because of the āauthoritarianā government shows your privilege.
How? I think this because the student body is friendly to Jews but extremely distrustful of governments who kill civilians & kids - how on earth does that make me privileged? Ad hom right there
How do you figure itās an authoritarian government? I would love to hear your opinions, and maybe your personal experiences? It seems you know a decent amount.
Itās authoritarian because they are forcing their will on the Palestinian people - forcing them to be unable to build a society or have a future for their kids or establish a government that isnāt a bunch of terrorists & on top of that: any state that commits war crimes (like killing 34,000 civilians, many of whom were kids) in the name of an ideology (Zionism) is authoritarian & if you wanna argue for a different definition of authoritarian go off, IDC - my point still stands in that you can get mad at this BS without being anti Semitic - in fact a lot of the Jews I know are anti Zionist & criticize the government of Israel (for some of them they criticize the government in parallel to wanting a less violent nation to call Israel & home)
Why are you scared of the encampment? They are protesting an authoritarian government, not Jewish people
Clearly you havenāt been keeping up. Firstly, those at the encampment are being encouraged by Samidoun, an āorganizationā who CELEBRATES October 7th. Killing is NOT Palestinian resistance, if you do believe October 7th is rightful Palestinian resistance, then by that logic, Israel going into Gaza is Israeli resistance. You could argue that Israel going into Gaza is causing civilian casualties, but October 7th resulted in that too, infact thatās the only intention Hamas had. Secondly, it is absolutely reasonable that a Jewish student would fear the encampments. The pro Palestinians and pro Hamas supporters took a Kanye West song, and subbed it with antifada (call for a violent uprising). In case you arenāt aware, Kanye West is OUTWARDLY antisemitic. Recently expressing he agreed with what Hitler wanted. So I think itās rather FAIR to be Jewish and fear those at these encampments. They could have picked any song by ANY artist, and they picked Kanye? 100% not a coincidence.
I donāt see how you can bring up Samidoun in good faith - neither me nor the encampment leaders nor do the pro Palestine organizations I reside with support October 7th - October 7th was bad but that doesnāt justify what Israel did Therefore: I ask you make this point again without pretending any of us support oct 7 ā As for the Kanye West thing: I donāt mean to sound obnoxious, but source? & even if they did thatās just mainstream music & I really donāt see the leap from that to anti semitism (the art & artist are separate remember?) Stop pretending the encampment is anti Semitic, its not, the movement is about civilian lives & an indigenous group of people keeping their land & giving everyone the rights to life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness ā not anti semitism All I can see is you have run out of reasons to defend an authoritarian regime which kills innocents & are now going to attempt to bash the movement
It is absolutely necessary to bring up Samidoun. Also, not you saying october 7th doesnāt justify Israelās actions taken against Hamas. Not my fault or yours that Hamas has ZERO respect and value for their civilian lives. You just canāt be wrong. I wound love you to condemn Hamas in your next reply. Tell me every reason why what Hamas did was wrong. If you canāt do that, there is no point in even having a discussion with you. And I mean it, I truly want to have dialogue, but I will not continue if the person I am conversing with canāt condemn Hamas. Everybody there, is actively encouraged by Samidoun to continue their encampment. If you are still at the encampment after Samidoun has encouraged it, and your moral compass canāt take over and say āwait, if October 7th was bad, how come the encampment Iām supporting and going to is being advertised and encouraged by an organization that thinks October 7th was good?ā By association, any Jewish or intellectual individual assumes if youāre at these encampments, you in relation believe October 7th was a victorious day. Samidoun HEAVILY advertised the encampment. THE LEADER, CHARLOTTE KATES was ARRESTED THERE! Thats like blaming an officer for questioning you when being friends with a murder and present at the crime scene. But fine, if you claim I should pretend that most of these supporters are there in good faith and condemn October 7th, I STILL have reasons why they are not doing ANY side any good. Firstly, I agree Pro-Israel protesters should not have come. It only aggravates and inflames the tension. But letās face it, should Pro-Palestinians be CAMPING out in a field on public property denying Pro-Israel and Zionist students entry? No. It goes against UBC bylaws and shocker, itās making the media hate the pro-Palestinian movement more and as far as Iām concerned, Israel is still in Gaza (rightfully). Now, those at these stupid encampments have never picked up a history book - or even a MAP before Israelās establishment. We all seem to call Israel, Palestine. Now this is just comical. I could go into how stupid and pathetic this is for years. But I have some self control, and will spare you of the painful truth. Iāll just point out two things. It was never Palestine. More accurately it was the British Mandate of Palestine. Which means, the invention of āPalestineā was a colonial invention. Yelling Palestine will be free then following it with āPalestinians are indigenous to the landā is so ironic. Itās genuinely hilarious and sad how pro Palestinians have no ability to make simple connections. The issue is, history has been rewritten. And no, this is not victim complex, you can even see history being rewritten with Donald Trump and Joe Biden. Itās not only happening in regard to āPalestinianā history. So if we want to get technical, they shouldnāt be saying āfree Palestineā they should be saying āfree the British mandate of Palestineā. Secondly, the name Palestine ironically comes from the Hebrew word āPeleshā, meaning to invade. In the first Century, after the Romans invaded the area and defeated the Hasmonean Dynasty, the autonomy the Jewish people had enjoyed was abruptly taken away. To add insult to injury, the Romans called it Philistine; an attempt to insult the Jewish people, rubbing it in their faces that they had been invaded and their autonomy had been stripped. Moreover, Philistine was considered a region in the area. Much like the āKootenaysā or the āOkanaganā are regions in British Columbia. Definitely not done. Thereās been a video circulating on YouTube that shows what the encampment is like on the inside to those who have been EXCLUDED from entering (donāt forget, itās public property š„°). In this video a person attending and possibly in charge of this encampment demanded that the woman filming this video prior to entering, state she is in solidarity of the people of Gaza (hey, at least theyāre acknowledging itās Gaza and NOT Palestineā¦ some improvement). When asked if it excludes Hamas members, he said something along the lines of solidarity for everyone in Gaza. Never outwardly confirming Hamas is excluded from the solidarity of Gaza civilians. What a joke. We literally have students who support Hamas on our campus and youāre still denying this encampment is doing any good! People in the encampment either deny and/ or celebrate October 7th, claiming its Palestinian resistance. Then Israel going into Gaza is Israeli resistance. Logic must go both ways. Also it makes no sense as to why some deny October 7th and some still celebrate it. Donāt you have to acknowledge October 7th happened to celebrate it? If they canāt decide, surely I canāt reason. Source for Kanye West: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6cqOGpxDv1/?igsh=MTdsYTNpeTQxa3ZpYg== Have at it, be my guest. Itās easy to provide sources when Palestinian instagram accounts incriminate themselves. I still canāt fathom that you believe picking a Kanye West song for a pro Palestinian rally is a coincidence! They could have picked ANY other artist. So no, I have NOT run out of reasons to defend Israel. What I will say is, pro Palestinians canāt escape the perpetual cycle of self victimization and destruction. Israel left Gaza, giving Gaza to the PLO, and Hamas was later voted in. After 2005, everything in Gaza is no longer Israelās responsibility. Surely you can argue that Israel being in Gaza previously has tainted or hindered the Gaza civilians potential of being more successful, but you could also argue that about the Jewish people. 6 million Jews being murdered, and not even given a chance to be āethnically cleansedā before being gassed, yet the Jewish community is successful and thriving. Look at the trauma and colonization theyāve suffered. There is one Jewish State, and 22 Arab countries. Ever heard of the Muslim Conquest. They literally colonized parts of Africa and Southwest Asia and now theyāre claiming theyāre being colonized? What a joke. Open a history book.
First paragraph: I reiterate: Samidoun is just you trying to strawman: the people at the encampment & everyone I associate with all agree oct 7 was bad - nobody relevant is defending it. Sure oct 7 justifies what Israel did to Hamas ā but that doesnāt justify intentionally targeting civilians āHamas has zero respect for civilans livesā - ok sure go off, but that still doesnāt give Israel an excuse to kill 34000 innocents & Iāve condemned all sides, Iāve told you repeatedly nobody here is defending Hamas - stop pretending Iām defending him: killing civilians is wrong ā Hamas is bad killing civilians is wrong ā Israel is bad Itās not hard to grasp Second paragraph: How are the protestors blocking any other students? Itās an encampment taking place after exams meant to target the school Third paragraph: I do wanna clarify: Palestinians being indigenous to the land doesnāt say Israeliās arenāt indigenous to the land - a lot of the activists frequently go off on how they both should have the land (& realistically speaking 15 million people should be more then capable of living in a land as big as that area) - the pro Palestine side just wants an authoritarian government to stop killing civilians (refer back to when I said an Israeli military occupation of the Gaza hospitals would have been cool since that would have hurt Hamas without killing anyone) Second last paragraph: Listening to that: Iām still baffled how you can jump from that to anti semitism, like its a song, its not that deep ā if you were to apply this logic to others then anyone listing to mainstream music supports prostitution & drugs cause all pop artists use those Last paragraph: Who said I want Israel to pull out? There is nothing wrong with killing terrorists, if Israel only killed members of Hamas nobody would be mad ā its the fact that they targeted civilians that everyoneās mad at. I reiterate: a military occupation of the hospitals to flush Hamas out wouldnāt piss anyone off, but bombing the entire hospital with civilians (again: many were kids) is unacceptable - a military with western support && tech & training as advanced as Israel should be able to clear a tunnel instead of taking innocent lives Jewish inter generational trauma: once again: Jews can reclaim their identities & culture & build their own nation, but they should be able to do that without them killing civilians - I know Jews have issues & I know how important solving them is, but this doesnāt give anyone the right to kill people & finally: Arab conquest & Arab nations: yes, Iām familiar with what that is, Iāll have you know that I renounced my Saudi Arabian citizenship due to political reasons. But that said: what does that have to do with civilians being killed? The ruling class of the Arab world did a lot of horrible things, I donāt dispute that ā but that does not give the Israeli ruling class the chance to kill 34000 people unnecessarily
Look, I actually think Iām speaking to an intelligent person. The fact that you can condemn Hamas provides me with some sense of relief that there are still good people in this world. Off-the-bat, I donāt believe weāre going to agree on the fact that picking a Kanye West song wasnāt intentional. Mainly because it depends on if you separate the artist from the art and thatās a whole different subject. Regardless, if the song was made by Kayne West, Lana Del Ray, BeyoncĆ© or Fleetwood Mac, replacing the chorus with intifada, (a literal call for a violent uprising against Israelis), is objectively wrong. Using Kanye makes it sting 10x more. However, the original Reddit thread is in context of the UBC encampments. Therefore, I am speaking within that context. There are countless videos, reels and posts by those at the encampment where they openly celebrate October 7th, hate on Jews and Zionists and exclude anyone who doesnāt fit their narrative. All of my comments are in the context of the encampments as thatās what the original Reddit post is speaking about. I do not personally accuse you of celebrating October 7th, or denying it happened. Strictly talking about what these encampment goers are openly expressing. Truth is, most of these at such an extreme protest donāt have the intention of a two state solution. Itās Palestine or nothing. I know people at this encampment and know the mentality. Thatās why I take issue with these encampments. Theyāre not for a compromise. They are an all or nothing mentality and at any cost. As far as civilian casualties, I wonāt totally discount the deaths (although I do not take the death toll in Gaza at face value as itās run by Hamas, which I think you can agree is fair). Yes, ultimately in a war (one provoked by Hamas) civilian casualties are unfortunately inevitable. However, civilian casualties are more likely to happen when Hamas uses communal buildings like schools, mosques, hospitals and residential buildings as artillery bases. Again I believe youāre logical, does it make sense to hide artillery and plant bases in community buildings? I agree, Israel can carpet bomb - Israel has an amazing military. However, when a concentrated amount of terrorist are hiding (like cowards) in hospitals where innocent civilians are often forced to stay in (by Hamas), Israel has little room to play āfairā. We can agree that Hamas is the enemy. Terrorist organizations donāt work on values, they are only successful if they play ādirtyā and unlawfully. If terrorists had any morality, there wouldnāt be terrorists. Hamas knows and admits that using communal buildings, where children and innocent civilians live, as bases for weapons and explosives, increases Israelās chances of civilian casualties. Infact, you included that if Israel occupied the hospitals, it would make Israel less likely to kill innocent civilians. So this implies you know what Hamas is up to. Iād argue if Israel took occupation of Gaza hospitals, people would still complain. Israel cant seem to do anything right. Their tactic is to pull at Western mediaās heart strings, and to make Israel look bad. When in true reality, if it was up to Israel (a democratic country), they would want zero innocent civilian deaths. I honestly believe this. Anyone who gets joy out of innocent civilians being killed is wicked. Listen, Iām personally for a two state solution. I just want the people of Gaza to live a prosperous life they deserve just as much as me and you. Until Hamas is defeated, a two state solution is impossible. But Itās not unreasonable that a slim minority of Israelis arenāt really willing to accept a two state solution after October 7th. Iām not here to bash your personal views. Iām just speaking in the context of this Reddit thread. Iām genuinely glad and happy you and those in your circle can condemn Hamas. I am not here to say all pro- Palestinians are violent or against peace. But, those at the encampment arenāt reasonable. They donāt want a two state solution. Proof to that is countless videos of them not wanting any Zionists or Jews to enter the encampment. If they wanted a two state solution, shouldnāt they be open to sharing a field with their prospective āneighboursā? Just their lack of dialogue with Jews, Israelis, and Zionists shows they donāt want compromise.
Israel been killing kids dude and they cant even protest against that?
Iām confused, how do you accuse Israel of killing children when Hamas has admitted to inflating civilian casualties, using children as messengers in terrorist negotiations and Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of one of the founders of Hamas has seen the PLO and Hamas kill innocent children. How do you even have the nerve to accuse Israel of killing children when you continently fail to mention what Hamas had admitted themselves? I suggest you read āThe Son of Hamasā by Yousef. He shows both sides faults. But genuine question, how do you expect Israel to fight fairly against a terrorist organization?
Protesting in front of the Nest at UBC will definitely show em! These protesters are making me desensitized to the whole situation, especially when they all these tents and bs that make student lives more difficult. Take all those flags, tents and whatever other shiny toys you have and go downtown.
how do they make student lives more difficult? hasn't affected me.
no literally š āmakes student life difficultā huh???
Theyrw trying to raise awareness to those in positions of power. I get that you dont like it, but there is protest work being done. Also obligatory, if a situation that is mildly annoying causes you to "switch sides", you were never that for in the first place
The only way that my life as a student has been made more difficult by the encampment is the chore of listening to people complain about it incessantly
I can understand that reading can be difficult for some people, and that's totally fine.
I mean, there arenāt classes rn so this is a relatively non-disruptive place to do it.
itās actually not for you/your attention! Hope this helps x
I agree, it's for the ppl who are working at the coffee shops at the Nest.
Blue Chip cookies are Zionist propaganda
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Civil disobedience and protest (imo, others may have diff opinion) is about showing solidarity, advocating for demands, and raising awareness of the issue - and none of that includes catering to individuals who hold such view points ^. Itās not about moulding the issue to be acceptable to people who generally donāt give af anyways, but making it so it canāt be ignored & must be confronted, especially by those in power. No major social change has been made without bothering those attached to the status quo. It doesnāt even make rational sense to cater to those who put their everyday convenience & easy living over having empathy with those experiencing genocide our university profits from.
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Time to cook
just ignore them
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Look man, you are looking too deep for meaning where there isnāt any. Itās just a username. And secondly, if your way of gathering support for your revolution is attack anyone who donāt resonates with you maybe you should consider a better way.
Good for the pro-Israel side. Stand up against terror! š®š±
Ah yes, the terror of...some tents with some people in them...and a few flags and dismantled road signs Look I support everyone's right to demonstrate, but you can't act like the pro-Israel side here is protesting terror, it's a glorified campsite not an armed militia
The Israeli government have killed more people then Hamas ever has ā you support the Israeli government, but the pro Palestine protests oppose both them & Hamas ā so if anyone is anti terror its the pro Palestinian activists & if anyone is standing for terror its you