Best hypothesis I've come across so far lies in the work of Jacques Vallee, who, as I understand it, proposes that the phenomenon might act as a kind of control system; influencing and even manipulating human development.
"*Intermittent reinforcement plays a key role in Vallee's framework. He argues that the UFO phenomenon appears and disappears in an unpredictable manner, creating a pattern of episodic contact with humanity. This sporadic nature, according to Vallee, mirrors the principles of intermittent reinforcement observed in psychology, where rewards or stimuli are delivered inconsistently, yet still maintain strong control over behavior*."
Moreover, I think one could posit that this "s*poradic nature*" isn't necessarily restricted to the seeming irregularity in intervals of contact, but can likely be extended to the irregular or inconsistent patterns of displayed behavior.
Most importantly, I think one has to consider that what might read as sporadic, irregular, or inconsistent to our limited perception and capabilities could conceivably be trivially sequential—*or even part of a deterministic system*—to a vastly superior intellect.
**If** something like that were taking place, the question then becomes: Why?
As a thought experiment, I think it plausible for a hypothetical ancient enough civilization (*especially one composed of a plurality of intelligent species*) to have developed a methodology that precipitates, or at least facilitates the homogenization and integration of new intelligent species into their existing socio-techno-cultural organization.
Such process could, conceivably, be enacted across vast gulfs of time (*from an individual's standpoint*) and in a way that subtly shapes their collective biome's cultures and development into something compatible to this ancient civilization's preexisting systems. Maybe as a way to reduce friction/resistance and maximize the possibilities of a successful and productive integration.
As to your original question: would something like that be good or bad? I'd say it'd definitively lean toward the former rather than the latter. Especially if a level of independence and self-determinism is safeguarded or guaranteed for the younger intelligent species. Doubly so if we also consider that forceful conquest would provide a far more direct but equally foregone conclusion.
That is extremely insightful. I knew that there were people who had said we were basically Pavlovs dogs, but again, why? So I really enjoyed your take on why.
Edit: Someone upvote this redditor. I don't know why, but it won't let me.
Hi! To be perfectly frank, I've barely started going through Valle's bibliography myself, and the brief and extremely rough overview I presented above about some of his theories was more the result of my preliminary research into his work (*from whatever resources I could find and read online, including people referencing his work, interviews/podcasts with the man himself, and AI-powered explorative dialogues*)
***Side note:*** *as I understand it, Valle seems notoriously reticent about outright stating his perspectives or summarizing his views/theories in a single place, but maybe other people more familiar with his bibliography can provide a more accurate response to your query.*
If you want to look more into this specific angle of his work, I could suggest you start by googling about his "control system" theory. As for bibliography recommendations, I can only personally recommend **Passport to Magonia**, as it's the only one I've (*almost*) finished myself so far, and which I think presents an eye-opening perspective to look into the phenomenon (*especially for someone new and grossly ignorant about the topic, like me*).
However, if I'm allowed to recommend stuff from my preliminary research (*with the caveat that I'm still to read these for myself*), it seems Valle goes into more detail about this angle of his work in his book **The Invisible College**—*What a Group of Scientists Has Discovered About UFO Influences on the Human Race*.
If you don't feel like starting at the beginning, that would be the one I'd read to hopefully get more details into this. I hope that helps :)
Your reply is most appreciated. I made a start on The Invisible College a couple of months ago but got distracted down a Donald Hoffman/Bernardo Kastrup rabbit hole so returning to that sounds like exactly what I am looking for.
I see it as a plausible scenario. Especially because the theoretical notion of first-contact between two intelligent species strikes me to fit the definition I just googled of Special Circumstances mission XD
Then again, that just might be *a part* of it.
Without getting too into the weeds of things, some of the reported behavior (*from sightings and landing reports*) mirrors practices that I would ascribe to scientific endeavors (*sample collection, short, unobtrusive interactions, etc.*). And I hardly thing that such an endeavor as the one we are talking about, would be entirely just one thing.
Especially if we are willing to entertain the possibility of a plurality of NHIs engaging with us, instead of a single, entirely homogeneous, monolithic culture. The former, I would say, sounds more plausible.
What the truth of it all actually is, well, that's anyone's guess. At least until we know more.
I don’t know it seems all over the place, from just sighting, to studying, to warning , to recklessly playing with airplanes, etc and that’s why human or not we need to figure out what these things are.
The more I think about it the more I wonder if it is the US army wooshing around in a discovered or crashed alien space ship.
Other than that, they may just look at us like an endangered species like we do with Badgers and things.
Yeah. If you believe Lazar, they were playing around with it while he was there. So that's a definite possibility.
But yeah, it seems like "it" is indifferent unless you try and mess with/ approach it.
For any fans of the Halo series, I find the Covenant’s relationship to Forerunner technology an interesting comparison. Every seemingly advanced piece of tech (seen as so by humans), from plasma weapons and A.I. to FTL travel was reverse-engineered from archaeologically discovered Forerunner relics. And moreover, the Covenant leaders can only understand a fraction of these technologies’ capabilities, even as they are seen as advanced my lower races
It could be a civilization that is obsessed with evolving itself, and what better way to fasttrack evolution by sending out their children as scouts to alien worlds.
Throw them into the deep end early on, and only those who survive and gather improvements/information for their hive are worth keeping.
As brutal and arrogant as Sparta once was, yet only for their own benefit and not as a tool for military force.
I read about a nurse who supposedly was stationed at area 51 and was there when the biologics were recovered. At the time, she was called to the crash, and no one was expecting ETs but pilots. Because who would be expecting anything other than a crashed plane? Anyway, long story short, this "being" explained to her, one day, that they were expanding their reach but wasn't close enough to us yet to pay us much mind; other than making sure we didn't destroy resources.
Like, "Oh shit, who put Frogglbop on patrol again!? He's been demoted to communications. You know he likes to nuke the livestock and abduct humans when he gets bored!"
>What is your opinion of the general intention of this unexplained?
However one chooses to look at these things - irrespective of whatever story told - the one, indisputable fact remains: we're all apparently still here to talk about it afterwards....
How dire can their true intentions be - to bore us to death...?
Other than to quietly wait for us to all die of natural causes - there doesn't appear to be much by way of either impetuous or escalation afoot: UFO sightings reports trickle in at much the same rates they always have done...
Of course I'm familiar with the school of thought concerning frogs in water and gradually turning up the heat so imperceptibly they're not supposed to notice they're cooking until cooked - but the fact of the matter is, we *are* aware temperatures are rising, climates are changing and the cause is us, not UFO's - not their pilots.
Us....
Perhaps, whatever time scale may be involved here - whatever motivation lies behind it - it simply isn't undertaken on human terms or, from their point of view, of our concerns.
We don't own this world, we're just the - current - tenants, one species amongst billions the exact number of which we don't actually know the first thing about...
Doesn't it strike you as insane? Here we are, in the place we call home and all we know is - every time we bother to look, all we do is become aware of yet some other *thousands* of species of creature we never new existed before and - when we look again, there are more, right under our noses.
We live *on* this world, we don't live in it - our concept of nature doesn't really extent much beyond the belief that Nature is wherever man isn't - we still persist under the myth of creationalism that somehow, we're separate from everything else - special.
Point to a line of trees planted in-front of a multistory car park and ask the first passer by - *which, to your mind, best represents "nature" - the tree's or the car park...?*
Most are going to plumb for the trees as if some self apparent truth, oblivious to the fact - this is a world on which humans emerged and evolved: the motor car and the smog riddles streets it drives through is as much part and parcel of the natural world as the pretty creatures wildlife photographers capture in those uplifting "nature" shows David Attenborough presents.
We are as much a product of the natural world as every other living thing and non living thing - our time is what it is and it will pass: yes, we could use it more productively and perhaps we will or - like yeast in the brewing process - we choke to death in our own waste but leave behind a welcome byproduct something else can take the benefit of...
Perhaps our unpredictable visitors have been here on and off for millions of millennia - patiently cataloguing, minding their own business....
Whatever our visitors actually are, they're a blank space onto which we project our fears, our beliefs, our expectations - the *ludicrous* scare stories - whatever we think, they're not like any of what we simply imagine - they're their own thing, with as much right to be here as we have.
And we're were all here to tell the story. That's the bit that hasn't changed: despite them, despite us - despite the sum of all our fears which, strangely, only ever seem to effect Americans no matter what the narrative - we're all still here to talk about it.
And that tells you everything you need to know.
The world turns.
Here's a recent multiple-witness case with an iron-clad prosaic explanation that the UFO blogs conceal from their target audiences. What can we learn from it?
http://www.astronautix.com/data/hawaii-mothership-release.pdf
That not every multiple witness case is unexplainable and can be attributed to misinterpreting spent rockets or satellite reentry? I'm just asking about your opinion on whether you think the intentions of the truly unexplainable phenomena are for good, bad, or basically indifferent towards us.
>That not every multiple witness case is unexplainable and can be attributed to misinterpreting spent rockets or satellite reentry
Step back and consider the big picture, it doesn't require a satellite reentry fireball swarm. ANY source of multiple bright lights crossing the night sky can -- and HAS -- produce the same classic witness misinterpretations.
>the truly unexplainable phenomena
That's the proper focus for the search, among the garble and garbage of MOST reports. But to zero in on the gold, you've got to learn how to filter out the fool's-gold, and I've seen NO indication that the 'UFO community' knows how to do that, or even wants to. And I sense indications there are human agencies involved who LIKE the current confusion to continue.
I understand your point. My point is say, for instance, the 3 children that saw an "angel from heaven" as they themselves said the entity told them so(or the Virgin Mary as the Catholic Church adopted it.) Thousands witnessed a bright object descend from the sky. Humming was heard by all while the entity was supposedly responding to the children. (Good or neutral depending on your view)
Or the 1886 event, which was bad. Just bad
found the entire text as a free download, here;
[https://archive.org/stream/jacques-f.-vallee-the-invisible-college-what-a-group-of-scientists-has-discovere/Jacques%20F.%20Vall%C3%A9e%20-%20The%20Invisible%20College\_%20What%20a%20Group%20of%20Scientists%20Has%20Discovered%20About%20UFO%20Influence%20on%20the%20Human%20Race%20%282014%2C%20Anomalist%20Books%29%20-%20libgen.lc\_djvu.txt](https://archive.org/stream/jacques-f.-vallee-the-invisible-college-what-a-group-of-scientists-has-discovere/Jacques%20F.%20Vall%C3%A9e%20-%20The%20Invisible%20College_%20What%20a%20Group%20of%20Scientists%20Has%20Discovered%20About%20UFO%20Influence%20on%20the%20Human%20Race%20%282014%2C%20Anomalist%20Books%29%20-%20libgen.lc_djvu.txt)
Best hypothesis I've come across so far lies in the work of Jacques Vallee, who, as I understand it, proposes that the phenomenon might act as a kind of control system; influencing and even manipulating human development. "*Intermittent reinforcement plays a key role in Vallee's framework. He argues that the UFO phenomenon appears and disappears in an unpredictable manner, creating a pattern of episodic contact with humanity. This sporadic nature, according to Vallee, mirrors the principles of intermittent reinforcement observed in psychology, where rewards or stimuli are delivered inconsistently, yet still maintain strong control over behavior*." Moreover, I think one could posit that this "s*poradic nature*" isn't necessarily restricted to the seeming irregularity in intervals of contact, but can likely be extended to the irregular or inconsistent patterns of displayed behavior. Most importantly, I think one has to consider that what might read as sporadic, irregular, or inconsistent to our limited perception and capabilities could conceivably be trivially sequential—*or even part of a deterministic system*—to a vastly superior intellect. **If** something like that were taking place, the question then becomes: Why? As a thought experiment, I think it plausible for a hypothetical ancient enough civilization (*especially one composed of a plurality of intelligent species*) to have developed a methodology that precipitates, or at least facilitates the homogenization and integration of new intelligent species into their existing socio-techno-cultural organization. Such process could, conceivably, be enacted across vast gulfs of time (*from an individual's standpoint*) and in a way that subtly shapes their collective biome's cultures and development into something compatible to this ancient civilization's preexisting systems. Maybe as a way to reduce friction/resistance and maximize the possibilities of a successful and productive integration. As to your original question: would something like that be good or bad? I'd say it'd definitively lean toward the former rather than the latter. Especially if a level of independence and self-determinism is safeguarded or guaranteed for the younger intelligent species. Doubly so if we also consider that forceful conquest would provide a far more direct but equally foregone conclusion.
That is extremely insightful. I knew that there were people who had said we were basically Pavlovs dogs, but again, why? So I really enjoyed your take on why. Edit: Someone upvote this redditor. I don't know why, but it won't let me.
3 months later and upvoting papabaloo and you too
Which of Vallee’s works most deeply covers these intermittent reinforcement concepts? I am intrigued and would like to read more.
Hi! To be perfectly frank, I've barely started going through Valle's bibliography myself, and the brief and extremely rough overview I presented above about some of his theories was more the result of my preliminary research into his work (*from whatever resources I could find and read online, including people referencing his work, interviews/podcasts with the man himself, and AI-powered explorative dialogues*) ***Side note:*** *as I understand it, Valle seems notoriously reticent about outright stating his perspectives or summarizing his views/theories in a single place, but maybe other people more familiar with his bibliography can provide a more accurate response to your query.* If you want to look more into this specific angle of his work, I could suggest you start by googling about his "control system" theory. As for bibliography recommendations, I can only personally recommend **Passport to Magonia**, as it's the only one I've (*almost*) finished myself so far, and which I think presents an eye-opening perspective to look into the phenomenon (*especially for someone new and grossly ignorant about the topic, like me*). However, if I'm allowed to recommend stuff from my preliminary research (*with the caveat that I'm still to read these for myself*), it seems Valle goes into more detail about this angle of his work in his book **The Invisible College**—*What a Group of Scientists Has Discovered About UFO Influences on the Human Race*. If you don't feel like starting at the beginning, that would be the one I'd read to hopefully get more details into this. I hope that helps :)
Your reply is most appreciated. I made a start on The Invisible College a couple of months ago but got distracted down a Donald Hoffman/Bernardo Kastrup rabbit hole so returning to that sounds like exactly what I am looking for.
So. We are dealing with a long term Special Circumstances mission?
I see it as a plausible scenario. Especially because the theoretical notion of first-contact between two intelligent species strikes me to fit the definition I just googled of Special Circumstances mission XD Then again, that just might be *a part* of it. Without getting too into the weeds of things, some of the reported behavior (*from sightings and landing reports*) mirrors practices that I would ascribe to scientific endeavors (*sample collection, short, unobtrusive interactions, etc.*). And I hardly thing that such an endeavor as the one we are talking about, would be entirely just one thing. Especially if we are willing to entertain the possibility of a plurality of NHIs engaging with us, instead of a single, entirely homogeneous, monolithic culture. The former, I would say, sounds more plausible. What the truth of it all actually is, well, that's anyone's guess. At least until we know more.
I don’t know it seems all over the place, from just sighting, to studying, to warning , to recklessly playing with airplanes, etc and that’s why human or not we need to figure out what these things are.
That's where I'm at right now. It's like there is no decernable pattern on purpose.
The more I think about it the more I wonder if it is the US army wooshing around in a discovered or crashed alien space ship. Other than that, they may just look at us like an endangered species like we do with Badgers and things.
Yeah. If you believe Lazar, they were playing around with it while he was there. So that's a definite possibility. But yeah, it seems like "it" is indifferent unless you try and mess with/ approach it.
I absolutely do believe Bob Lazar.
I didnt at first...but the number of attacks against him....it's just beyond what you expect for someone who frankly sounds crazy to begin with.
For any fans of the Halo series, I find the Covenant’s relationship to Forerunner technology an interesting comparison. Every seemingly advanced piece of tech (seen as so by humans), from plasma weapons and A.I. to FTL travel was reverse-engineered from archaeologically discovered Forerunner relics. And moreover, the Covenant leaders can only understand a fraction of these technologies’ capabilities, even as they are seen as advanced my lower races
Haha. That's a pretty good observation. It's funny how even in fictional media, some things are eerily similar to things supposedly going on.
Totally. If you haven’t seen SG-1, the narrative is… extremely on the nose to say the least.
It could be a civilization that is obsessed with evolving itself, and what better way to fasttrack evolution by sending out their children as scouts to alien worlds. Throw them into the deep end early on, and only those who survive and gather improvements/information for their hive are worth keeping. As brutal and arrogant as Sparta once was, yet only for their own benefit and not as a tool for military force.
I read about a nurse who supposedly was stationed at area 51 and was there when the biologics were recovered. At the time, she was called to the crash, and no one was expecting ETs but pilots. Because who would be expecting anything other than a crashed plane? Anyway, long story short, this "being" explained to her, one day, that they were expanding their reach but wasn't close enough to us yet to pay us much mind; other than making sure we didn't destroy resources.
More than one party 🤷🏻♂️
I really think I'm leaning this way. Or the same party, but just like humans, some are good and some not so much.
Like, "Oh shit, who put Frogglbop on patrol again!? He's been demoted to communications. You know he likes to nuke the livestock and abduct humans when he gets bored!"
>What is your opinion of the general intention of this unexplained? However one chooses to look at these things - irrespective of whatever story told - the one, indisputable fact remains: we're all apparently still here to talk about it afterwards.... How dire can their true intentions be - to bore us to death...? Other than to quietly wait for us to all die of natural causes - there doesn't appear to be much by way of either impetuous or escalation afoot: UFO sightings reports trickle in at much the same rates they always have done... Of course I'm familiar with the school of thought concerning frogs in water and gradually turning up the heat so imperceptibly they're not supposed to notice they're cooking until cooked - but the fact of the matter is, we *are* aware temperatures are rising, climates are changing and the cause is us, not UFO's - not their pilots. Us.... Perhaps, whatever time scale may be involved here - whatever motivation lies behind it - it simply isn't undertaken on human terms or, from their point of view, of our concerns. We don't own this world, we're just the - current - tenants, one species amongst billions the exact number of which we don't actually know the first thing about... Doesn't it strike you as insane? Here we are, in the place we call home and all we know is - every time we bother to look, all we do is become aware of yet some other *thousands* of species of creature we never new existed before and - when we look again, there are more, right under our noses. We live *on* this world, we don't live in it - our concept of nature doesn't really extent much beyond the belief that Nature is wherever man isn't - we still persist under the myth of creationalism that somehow, we're separate from everything else - special. Point to a line of trees planted in-front of a multistory car park and ask the first passer by - *which, to your mind, best represents "nature" - the tree's or the car park...?* Most are going to plumb for the trees as if some self apparent truth, oblivious to the fact - this is a world on which humans emerged and evolved: the motor car and the smog riddles streets it drives through is as much part and parcel of the natural world as the pretty creatures wildlife photographers capture in those uplifting "nature" shows David Attenborough presents. We are as much a product of the natural world as every other living thing and non living thing - our time is what it is and it will pass: yes, we could use it more productively and perhaps we will or - like yeast in the brewing process - we choke to death in our own waste but leave behind a welcome byproduct something else can take the benefit of... Perhaps our unpredictable visitors have been here on and off for millions of millennia - patiently cataloguing, minding their own business.... Whatever our visitors actually are, they're a blank space onto which we project our fears, our beliefs, our expectations - the *ludicrous* scare stories - whatever we think, they're not like any of what we simply imagine - they're their own thing, with as much right to be here as we have. And we're were all here to tell the story. That's the bit that hasn't changed: despite them, despite us - despite the sum of all our fears which, strangely, only ever seem to effect Americans no matter what the narrative - we're all still here to talk about it. And that tells you everything you need to know. The world turns.
Wow. I loved this. That is what I'm looking for. Upvote this redditor!
Thank you - sorry they downvoted you there. Have one on me. **D**
No worries. Thanks!
Here's a recent multiple-witness case with an iron-clad prosaic explanation that the UFO blogs conceal from their target audiences. What can we learn from it? http://www.astronautix.com/data/hawaii-mothership-release.pdf
That not every multiple witness case is unexplainable and can be attributed to misinterpreting spent rockets or satellite reentry? I'm just asking about your opinion on whether you think the intentions of the truly unexplainable phenomena are for good, bad, or basically indifferent towards us.
>That not every multiple witness case is unexplainable and can be attributed to misinterpreting spent rockets or satellite reentry Step back and consider the big picture, it doesn't require a satellite reentry fireball swarm. ANY source of multiple bright lights crossing the night sky can -- and HAS -- produce the same classic witness misinterpretations.
>the truly unexplainable phenomena That's the proper focus for the search, among the garble and garbage of MOST reports. But to zero in on the gold, you've got to learn how to filter out the fool's-gold, and I've seen NO indication that the 'UFO community' knows how to do that, or even wants to. And I sense indications there are human agencies involved who LIKE the current confusion to continue.
I understand your point. My point is say, for instance, the 3 children that saw an "angel from heaven" as they themselves said the entity told them so(or the Virgin Mary as the Catholic Church adopted it.) Thousands witnessed a bright object descend from the sky. Humming was heard by all while the entity was supposedly responding to the children. (Good or neutral depending on your view) Or the 1886 event, which was bad. Just bad
No argument. Watch the skies!
found the entire text as a free download, here; [https://archive.org/stream/jacques-f.-vallee-the-invisible-college-what-a-group-of-scientists-has-discovere/Jacques%20F.%20Vall%C3%A9e%20-%20The%20Invisible%20College\_%20What%20a%20Group%20of%20Scientists%20Has%20Discovered%20About%20UFO%20Influence%20on%20the%20Human%20Race%20%282014%2C%20Anomalist%20Books%29%20-%20libgen.lc\_djvu.txt](https://archive.org/stream/jacques-f.-vallee-the-invisible-college-what-a-group-of-scientists-has-discovere/Jacques%20F.%20Vall%C3%A9e%20-%20The%20Invisible%20College_%20What%20a%20Group%20of%20Scientists%20Has%20Discovered%20About%20UFO%20Influence%20on%20the%20Human%20Race%20%282014%2C%20Anomalist%20Books%29%20-%20libgen.lc_djvu.txt)