yeah, so whenever black panther boosts with houdinis cards the extra effects will also go off since theyre tied to the boost value. it makes it a really rough matchup for houdini.
The key difference between Panther’s ability and effects like Ambush which use your boost value (which is what that line clarifies) is that Panther actually boosts with the card and those other cards don’t, which is why Panther gets the boost trick and Ambush doesn’t.
Official ruling is that whoever boosts with the card gets the boost trick exactly as written, which is why Panther can use their effects, including All Part of the Show which would heal Houdini. There is some confusion about other effects not triggering the boost (like Ambush) but those cards don’t actually boost, they just use the boost value which is an important difference.
This is a weird one and we rule it as a no at my table. Houdini’s rules say the boost bonuses only happen when the Houdini player uses the card for a boost, whether maneuver boost or card boost. Nothing in the Black Panther rules says that he gets to use boost bonuses of other players, just the boost values.
I think I remember hearing that at one point it was ruled on discord or something that Black Panther does get to use the boost bonuses, but it is mostly an interpretation and varies based on who you ask. Since the Houdini rules say that the boost bonuses do not trigger “when an opponent’s effect uses your boost value” and technically the Black Panther thing is an ability and not an effect (weird semantics thing) then he should get to use it. However, the same argument can be made that only the Houdini player gets the benefits since the rules say “whenever YOU use one of these cards to boost” which is referring to the Houdini player, and then it later specifies opponents cannot activate the bonuses.
IMHO, Black Panther does not activate the Houdini boost bonuses. Just doesn’t make sense and really sucks to have one specific matchup be made very complicated and annoying because of a rule interpretation that could go either way. When in doubt, rule towards how every other character works (not using the boost bonus).
One of the game's designers has specifically said black panther boosting with houdini's cards will trigger their tricks on the discord if that's what you mean by it being ruled on the discord.
Yeah I think that’s what I saw someone refer to when I first noticed this interaction. I know my opinion isn’t the consensus, I just hate having a character that is essentially the hard counter to another when the rules as written are very confusing and could go either way. Thematically it makes no sense, and grammatically it is questionable.
The devs making a call on something is nice for official stuff, but unless you are paying super close attention to online platforms you’d never know the difference. Plus the devs have had to make errata changes before and have had odd rulings on things like all the Raptors taking damage from something that targets a hero. My opinion on this is just how we rule it with my group. We’d rather be “technically” wrong according to a devs ruling in a discord post and have more fun than be annoyed and wary of a single matchup because of a weird divergent character rule interpretation. I’ll probably get flack for it here but is what it is lol
This doesn't necessarily engage with the full point of your reply, but they've changed the raptors ruling so that the player controlling the raptors (or any other multi-hero) chooses which hero takes the damage and it's not all of them taking damage.
To address your actual point I don't think there's anything at all wrong with houseruling things if it's more fun for your group, I just think when ruling questions are asked it's better to know what the game designers' intent is even if you ultimately decide not to follow that intent with your group and never intend to play in the competitive scene (which is really the only place where following along with official rulings actually matters)
Yeah the Raptor thing was kinda my point. Originally the rule was one thing and then they backtracked later because it made certain interactions annoying. Wouldn’t be surprised if it happened again with other rules, maybe even this one with Houdini and BP. The difference between Raptors and this case actually is even more stark when you consider that the Raptors rules specifically said you do take the damage. At least in this case with the boost bonuses, you could make a case for either ruling. The only reason so many people say there’s an official rule is because a dev posted it once in discord (I’m assuming, I’ve never actually seen the post tbh). Thats why we house rule some things. I’d much rather break a few rules (especially confusing ones like this) and make the game more accessible when I’m teaching new players (which is often) and more fun for me and my group rather than having people get frustrated and less likely to enjoy the game because of strange rule interactions. Heck we completely ignore the second half of King Arthur’s character card that says he gets his power cancelled lol. My philosophy is rule for fun, not for official competitive tournament style
i think that the “opponents don’t get the effect” is mostly for cards that say “the opponent’s boost value gets added to this card”. Black Panther uses the actual card to boost, instead of just the value.
Also it would be funny to heal Houdini as Black Panther with “all part of the show” so I will be biased and follow that one Discord comment🙃
The key difference between Panther’s ability and effects like Ambush which use your boost value is that Panther actually boosts with the card and those other cards don’t, which is why Panther gets the boost trick and Ambush doesn’t. This was a rules clarification, not a weird edge scenario they decided to rule for fun.
Additionally the matchup is still plenty doable for Houdini. Panther has 14 health and crap for blocks, you can find that much damage even if he steals a couple of cards.
I’m very much well aware how the rule interaction works officially. My point is that the rules as written (not including posts on discord) could very well be interpreted differently. As I already said, Houdini’s rules use the term “you” which in every other case on that page refers to the Houdini player. Seems a bit odd to me to suddenly change the meaning of “you” to mean whoever is using the card. Houdini was designed by a fan who won the contest and made before BP. I’d venture to guess they didn’t bother to say that other players don’t use the boost bonus through specifically abilities because at the time there was no character that used others’ cards like BP does.
I really dislike having a character that gets stronger just because of something like that and vice versa for Houdini. It may not be a win or loss decider, but it certainly makes it feel cruddy when you take 2 damage from your own card for no other reason than you played Houdini and they played BP. To me it feels like if a new character was released and their ability said “After combat, deal 1 damage to the opposing fighter. Deal 1 additional damage for each fog token on the board”. 99% of the time the ability is just an extra damage, but then Invisible Man just gets completely fucked lol (maybe not the greatest example but it gets the job done). Houdini’s boost bonuses are (at least at the moment) a thing exclusive to him. Feels really bad to have that turned against him and work in a different way just because of a certain character. If every other character had boost bonuses, wouldn’t be so bad and would seem like an intended interaction of the ability, but with it only being Houdini (and that being like half his ability) having a hard counter character seems more like an edge case oversight.
Again, I’m fully aware of official online rulings. I don’t think it was just done for funsies lol. Some people like the interaction, some people don’t. I’m firmly in the latter camp and there’s quite a few people that feel the same way. I know it is the minority that don’t like BP getting the boost bonuses, and that’s ok. I just prefer ruling towards fun and approachability at my table rather than strict hardline official rules that make it unnecessarily annoying and complicated.
Seems logic for me also. BP ability says that captured card can only be used to boost. Boost meaning « adding boost value to a character move/attack » the specific effect should not apply. In that case boost is « +2 » and draw a card is boost bonus action. That’s the way i’ll play it
yeah, so whenever black panther boosts with houdinis cards the extra effects will also go off since theyre tied to the boost value. it makes it a really rough matchup for houdini.
So does the card “all part of the show” heal Houdini still?
funny enough, yeah it would since it specifically says that houdini heals.
The booklet literally says it doesn’t
The key difference between Panther’s ability and effects like Ambush which use your boost value (which is what that line clarifies) is that Panther actually boosts with the card and those other cards don’t, which is why Panther gets the boost trick and Ambush doesn’t.
Official ruling is that whoever boosts with the card gets the boost trick exactly as written, which is why Panther can use their effects, including All Part of the Show which would heal Houdini. There is some confusion about other effects not triggering the boost (like Ambush) but those cards don’t actually boost, they just use the boost value which is an important difference.
This is a weird one and we rule it as a no at my table. Houdini’s rules say the boost bonuses only happen when the Houdini player uses the card for a boost, whether maneuver boost or card boost. Nothing in the Black Panther rules says that he gets to use boost bonuses of other players, just the boost values. I think I remember hearing that at one point it was ruled on discord or something that Black Panther does get to use the boost bonuses, but it is mostly an interpretation and varies based on who you ask. Since the Houdini rules say that the boost bonuses do not trigger “when an opponent’s effect uses your boost value” and technically the Black Panther thing is an ability and not an effect (weird semantics thing) then he should get to use it. However, the same argument can be made that only the Houdini player gets the benefits since the rules say “whenever YOU use one of these cards to boost” which is referring to the Houdini player, and then it later specifies opponents cannot activate the bonuses. IMHO, Black Panther does not activate the Houdini boost bonuses. Just doesn’t make sense and really sucks to have one specific matchup be made very complicated and annoying because of a rule interpretation that could go either way. When in doubt, rule towards how every other character works (not using the boost bonus).
One of the game's designers has specifically said black panther boosting with houdini's cards will trigger their tricks on the discord if that's what you mean by it being ruled on the discord.
Yeah I think that’s what I saw someone refer to when I first noticed this interaction. I know my opinion isn’t the consensus, I just hate having a character that is essentially the hard counter to another when the rules as written are very confusing and could go either way. Thematically it makes no sense, and grammatically it is questionable. The devs making a call on something is nice for official stuff, but unless you are paying super close attention to online platforms you’d never know the difference. Plus the devs have had to make errata changes before and have had odd rulings on things like all the Raptors taking damage from something that targets a hero. My opinion on this is just how we rule it with my group. We’d rather be “technically” wrong according to a devs ruling in a discord post and have more fun than be annoyed and wary of a single matchup because of a weird divergent character rule interpretation. I’ll probably get flack for it here but is what it is lol
This doesn't necessarily engage with the full point of your reply, but they've changed the raptors ruling so that the player controlling the raptors (or any other multi-hero) chooses which hero takes the damage and it's not all of them taking damage. To address your actual point I don't think there's anything at all wrong with houseruling things if it's more fun for your group, I just think when ruling questions are asked it's better to know what the game designers' intent is even if you ultimately decide not to follow that intent with your group and never intend to play in the competitive scene (which is really the only place where following along with official rulings actually matters)
Yeah the Raptor thing was kinda my point. Originally the rule was one thing and then they backtracked later because it made certain interactions annoying. Wouldn’t be surprised if it happened again with other rules, maybe even this one with Houdini and BP. The difference between Raptors and this case actually is even more stark when you consider that the Raptors rules specifically said you do take the damage. At least in this case with the boost bonuses, you could make a case for either ruling. The only reason so many people say there’s an official rule is because a dev posted it once in discord (I’m assuming, I’ve never actually seen the post tbh). Thats why we house rule some things. I’d much rather break a few rules (especially confusing ones like this) and make the game more accessible when I’m teaching new players (which is often) and more fun for me and my group rather than having people get frustrated and less likely to enjoy the game because of strange rule interactions. Heck we completely ignore the second half of King Arthur’s character card that says he gets his power cancelled lol. My philosophy is rule for fun, not for official competitive tournament style
i think that the “opponents don’t get the effect” is mostly for cards that say “the opponent’s boost value gets added to this card”. Black Panther uses the actual card to boost, instead of just the value. Also it would be funny to heal Houdini as Black Panther with “all part of the show” so I will be biased and follow that one Discord comment🙃
The key difference between Panther’s ability and effects like Ambush which use your boost value is that Panther actually boosts with the card and those other cards don’t, which is why Panther gets the boost trick and Ambush doesn’t. This was a rules clarification, not a weird edge scenario they decided to rule for fun. Additionally the matchup is still plenty doable for Houdini. Panther has 14 health and crap for blocks, you can find that much damage even if he steals a couple of cards.
I’m very much well aware how the rule interaction works officially. My point is that the rules as written (not including posts on discord) could very well be interpreted differently. As I already said, Houdini’s rules use the term “you” which in every other case on that page refers to the Houdini player. Seems a bit odd to me to suddenly change the meaning of “you” to mean whoever is using the card. Houdini was designed by a fan who won the contest and made before BP. I’d venture to guess they didn’t bother to say that other players don’t use the boost bonus through specifically abilities because at the time there was no character that used others’ cards like BP does. I really dislike having a character that gets stronger just because of something like that and vice versa for Houdini. It may not be a win or loss decider, but it certainly makes it feel cruddy when you take 2 damage from your own card for no other reason than you played Houdini and they played BP. To me it feels like if a new character was released and their ability said “After combat, deal 1 damage to the opposing fighter. Deal 1 additional damage for each fog token on the board”. 99% of the time the ability is just an extra damage, but then Invisible Man just gets completely fucked lol (maybe not the greatest example but it gets the job done). Houdini’s boost bonuses are (at least at the moment) a thing exclusive to him. Feels really bad to have that turned against him and work in a different way just because of a certain character. If every other character had boost bonuses, wouldn’t be so bad and would seem like an intended interaction of the ability, but with it only being Houdini (and that being like half his ability) having a hard counter character seems more like an edge case oversight. Again, I’m fully aware of official online rulings. I don’t think it was just done for funsies lol. Some people like the interaction, some people don’t. I’m firmly in the latter camp and there’s quite a few people that feel the same way. I know it is the minority that don’t like BP getting the boost bonuses, and that’s ok. I just prefer ruling towards fun and approachability at my table rather than strict hardline official rules that make it unnecessarily annoying and complicated.
Not sure how to add a picture. But the rule book from Genie vs. Houdini says no.
Yes, but the rule books from For King and Country specificaly says to resolve any boost effects.
I am not sure where to find it, but I believe the official ruling is the boost tricks on Houdini's cards only trigger when he boosts with them.
Seems logic for me also. BP ability says that captured card can only be used to boost. Boost meaning « adding boost value to a character move/attack » the specific effect should not apply. In that case boost is « +2 » and draw a card is boost bonus action. That’s the way i’ll play it