I’ve been a fan of the versatility of vMix. It’s computer based so you have to get a little creative if you want something similar to a multiple ME switcher with a T bar. We have a stream deck that works pretty well as a switcher.
I just read some stuff on vMix. From what I understand you need to buy a fairly powerful PC to run it. But how does it accept all the inputs? A typical PC doesn't have four HDMI in ports. Would we need to buy some piece of gear to plug all our cameras into?
Easiest way is to get a Desktop PC with a Blackmagic Decklink card, doesn't need to be very powerful, but that is depending on you needs (I run 2 camera setups 1080p25 on my 5yo laptop)
My company is transitioning away from Tricaster TC-1's which we have 6 of. 3/6 of them have gone back to NewTek in Texas in the past year for repairs. Because of covid, we didn't get them back for 2-3 months. Not to mention the repairs cost anywhere from $3000-$6000. One of the repairs was a motherboard replacement + hard drive and it cost over $3500. Like what the fuck?
We built a beefy vMix computer for \~$3600 with all the fixings (3070, ThreadRipper 3960x, 128GB RAM, 6 TBs of storage, BeQuiet! Dark Base Pro 900 case, BlackMagic DeckLink Duo2, etc) and it has worked flawlessly for all of our productions. Anything breaks? Go to the computer store and replace the part. No more NewTek, no more NewTek support, no more shitty firmware updates that break the machine.
vMix is SUPER flexible and you don't need as much outboard gear. Our Tricaster set-ups would use 3-5 laptops to get all of our inputs (Zoom, PPT, etc) and now I only need 1 extra laptop and a bunch of monitors for my current workflow.
Been using it with a Stream Deck XL which acts as my switcher controller. Shortcuts in vMix are super robust in what they can do and most of my shows are automated with shortcuts I've set when I press certain buttons on the Stream Deck.
Done with NewTek TBH (except NDI - NDI rules). OP, send me a DM if you want to chat vMix and production.
My vMix rigs each include a Blackmagic DeckLink Quad HDMI Recorder, and since that occupied my last PCIe slot, additional captures using Magewell HDMI-to-USB 3.0 dongles. Got one running as we speak with 8 capture inputs, 4 on the card, plus 4 dongles.
How many cameras? Basically you'll end up with some capture cards for inputs and some GFX cards for outputs. Unfortunately it's really difficult to get components at a reasonable price right now. I agree that replacing the TriCaster with a VMix box is totally reasonable. I haven't ever been a fan of TriCrappers, but the time to build was like 12 months ago, or 12 months from now (maybe, if supply issues resolve themselves).
>A typical PC doesn't have four HDMI in ports. Would we need to buy some piece of gear to plug al
Decklink Quad HDMI Recorder it is for you then. Good price too.
If you can buy the components I'd say get a super beefy MoBo with a lot of PCIE slots and get a 4x HDMI capture card and a 4x capture SDI card. Whatever you want for GPU (but stick with Nvidia, as much of an AMD fanboy as I am their cards are optimized for h.26x encoding) then a super beefy Ryzen CPU (like the 5950x) like 128 gigs of ram (4x32gb sticks) a few 2TB SDD's and uh yeah. You're probably at or around what a new tricaster with 8 in and 4 outs would cost, or possibly less, and the machine is more versatile. Depending on GPU it could also double as a media server.
On top of our Decklink Duo2, we use a bunch of USB 3.0 Magwell's to send/receive either SDI or HDMI. They're about $500 a pop and you can buy more as you need them + a good powered USB hub.
Vmix posts the specs of "reference systems" they recommend, based on how many cameras and various use cases.
https://www.vmix.com/products/vmix-reference-systems.aspx
* Cheap and good enough - blackmagic
* Medium and reliable - BYO Vmix PC
* Expensive and mission critical - Ross Carbonite
I have all the above. Most current pandemic work is in Vmix due to remotes participants. Blackmagic ATEM 4K for studio but make sure it’s one of the few that are resolution independent! Tricaster is great because you can throw multiple resolutions at it. Every system has its own quirks to figure out, so don’t devalue the knowledge your team has on Tricaster. Vmix has a big learning curve but you can build a custom machine with capture cards and there’s plugins to use Tricaster Control surfaces.
BlackMagic put scalers on every input of the ATEM Television Studio 4k, which makes it infinitely more versatile than its predecessor.
Then they went and did the same on the ATEM Minis which sell for next to nothing. And they haven't touched anything in the former lineup since the Mini launched. Such a shame, because their stuff can usually be made to punch above its weight class if you have spares and can get creative with it.
I always laugh a little bit when I see people who have entire setups of black magic. Right before the pandemic I went to streaming media East and was talking with one of the resellers there and they were really pushing black magic at me and I said well why do I want it? It breaks down so much and he says "that's why you by 2 they're cheap enough."
A lot of comments here for vMix.
Re: beefy PC, pay attention to their reference builds on the website. It depends what you need it to do.
If its encoding several streams the GPU w onboard encoding is a big deal. If you are using a separate encoder (a lot of us are using Elemental stuff) this isn't as important.
Same with graphics/playback. Yeah, if you want to chroma key while running CG, and encoding and recording ISOs and boxes/layers/DVE...yeah that requires some processing.
IMHO, download the 60 day trial on a reasonably normal PC and give it a whirl. I can run straight cut shows w video playback on my personal i5 tower and a 3gig GPU.
Vmix pc specs and under rated. I use a 3 year old Alienware 17 laptop $1,700, a thunderbolt 3 expansion case $500 with an BM 4k extreme $500, BM deck link Quad 2 (8 hd sdi in or outs) $900, misc cables $200 plus what ever Vmix level you need. The best part you can buy to 4k now and only pay the difference if you need to go bigger. I can run 6 hd sdi and one 4k, vmix remote callers, stream to three services record min. 2 feeds and have 4 output running and the most my system is taxed in 60.%. Extras, 2 steams decks and a Motu 4 USB audio interface. My system has never let me down and Vmix updates have been solid.
This. We use an ATEM 2 m/e 4K set up with newtek talkshows to bring in remote channels and our three studio cameras. We use four hyperdeck minis for playback of clips, animated lower thirds, etc. We use LiveU solos for encoding since we can also use those in the field. Super flexible and solid.
Maybe. But once you’re up and running it becomes intuitive. And if anything goes down it’s an easy swap or work around. Good luck with whatever new setup you go for!
Alternatively, consider what would happen if your TriCaster failed. It's a single piece of equipment and there is very little modularity in the way it's setup.
If you split out your record, mix, and encode responsibilities you can more easily upgrade pieces of the system as your needs change.
We've had our Tricaster for five years and it's only crashed one time during a live broadcast and that was because we had installed the new firmware incorrectly. It may have issues during a live broadcast like a Net input getting glitchy or the audio getting wonky, but it's never outright crashed.
Totally agree. More chance to upgrade. More chance to bypass a failed part and get creative when something happens. I like flexibility but understand the need for simplicity as well.
This would be my recommendation too, with the only caveat being that BMD has made huge leaps forward in what their ATEM architecture is capable of that they've failed to bring to anything but the ATEM Mini lineup.
I feel that we are likely to see a shakeup in what was previously the low-end of the ATEM specter, namely the ATEM TVS 4k and the like so I don't know that I'd be buying on right now if I could make my current setup last a bit longer.
On the recording front (and since that's where OPs current TriCaster gremlin is living) I really dig the HyperDeck Studio Minis. I paired mine with AngelBird SD cards for recording and they have been bulletproof.
I'd consider snagging those now and working them into OP's existing setup to take the recording out of the TriCaster's scope and then cool my jets on the switcher upgrade until supply chains settle down a bit.
I have a couple of Hyperdeck minis but don't really use them, haven't put them in the flypacks yet. I've heard of people having issues with them, however.
>ATEM
How do you handle motion graphics and B roll with that setup? It also says the ATEM can only handle 20 images at a time. Why spend so much money just to archive broadcasts? I can buy a capture card for less than $200 that will archive up to 4K/60.
I don't roll motion graphics often, but do so from a generic playback PC when needed. The ATEM does motion graphics but I don't remember how many frames it can playback per clip.
The hyperdecks aren't expensive, and are reliable and simple. If you're looking at saving every cent then a capture card will do the job, but you're adding a PC to capture too, and that all increases the complexity and decreases reliability. If you're looking at saving that much you could just have the cloud archive the stream and save even more.
The cubes are to stream redundantly. You could cut those out and just stream from the ATEM (edit: check my claim, not sure if the TVS 4k streams), but if I had ~$8k as the ceiling I'd want redundant encoders but I am risk adverse for this work.
Cloud archives look terrible. One of the issues we're having right now is that the Tricaster Mini 1080/30 archives are a crazy low bitrate and look terrible after YouTube compression.
That does depend on your cloud setup, but yes, not likely that an h.264 archive is gonna look as good as prores. It's a compromise.
Still, h.264@1080 should look pretty good as long as you're around 5-10mbps depending on the content.
YouTube should automatically archive at whatever res/quality you're sending at, so if you're streaming 1080p@10mbps it really should look good after archiving.
It's all about the bitrate. For instance the Tricaster Mini can only archive 1080/30 at 8mbps. We run a lot of video game gameplay B roll with lots of action/motion and it looks awful once it goes through YouTube's compression. IMO an archive file needs to be at least 25mbps and preferably 60FPS.
The cubes take the HD-SDI video out of the switcher and stream it via rtmp to a streaming server (YouTube, Wowza, Azure, etc.). We run them in pairs so that we have redundancy.
I use vMix / WireCast / Livestream Studio with a Blackmagic Decklink SDI Quad 2 and a RME HDSPe AIO in a Thunderbolt 3 chassis. This is connected to a 6 Core i7 Dell XPS laptop.
>Blackmagic Decklink SDI Quad 2
I need HDMI inputs. Otherwise I'm going to have to spend more money for an HDMI to SDI converter. Plus that Blackmagic card is $1000 all on its own!
Edit: Oh, I see now there is an HDMI version of the Decklink.
you can get prebuilts from certified vmix resellers if you dont want to deal with figuring it out.
https://www.vmix.com/Purchase/Resellers.aspx?Country=United+States&Product=Custom+Systems
Thanks to everyone who's replied! Not sure which direction we'll go yet, but you've all given us a lot to chew on. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
I think the M/E flexibility on the Tricasters is excellent. I know Vmix can do these as well, but you need your own hardware.
We have the TC2 and usually stream with Wirecast.
Atem stuff is great if you’re switching a room and web type show (or need two separate mixes). We pair that with PPT and PlayBack Pro machines. You can probably going with a 2 or 4M/E with some playback machines. We use Decimators to get everything into the switcher. Embedded audio and time code that the Atem’s spit out are great. Don’t need to delay audio like you need to on the Tricasters.
Hope this was somewhat helpful.
I do like the idea of the Supersource on the Atem mini extreme. But Vmix will now be the industry standard for all virtual and hybrid events going forward. It will at least always be at a point in the chain.
Most people would recommend Blackmagic, but reliability is truely not there. It's gotten even worse over the past year. I would recommend a Ross switcher. It's more than the tricaster, but not by much. There is also For-A. Panasonic makes a few switchers. Sony and Grass Valley are up on the high end of things.
If any of these proposed replacements for our old Tricaster are even close to the same price we'll just buy a new Tricaster Mini 4K. We know how to use it and the workflow already and it's 4K! We also won't have tons of gear and wires all over the place that can get knocked out, stop working, etc.
So just from my experience, which isn't a ton admittedly, it's not just the tricaster you have in your possession I worked at a TV station that used tricaster products and they upgraded to a newer model and still had the same issues.
The problem with the Mini 4K is it has no physical inputs. They want to force you into NDI and their converters and sometimes that’s just not the right solution. I’m in a very similar situation as you - I’m a longtime Tricaster user looking for my next one, but there seems to be a gap in their product lineup right now where the Mini 4K doesn’t have the features I want/need, and the TC1/2 are overkill.
It comes with two free HDMI to NDI adapters., but yeah, it's an added expense. I was pretty surprised just how expensive they are to buy separately. I also don't like that you need one just to monitor the program feed. Keep in mind that you can use your phone/tablet as a 4K camera as well, though. NDI is basically the industry standard now, so I get it, but for our workflow/existing gear it's prohibitive.
I use NDI for many things and am a fan, but at the end of the day... I have thousands of feet of SDI, and cameras to go with them. I don’t need PTZ control. I’m years away from going 4K. Why introduce added expense and failure points? If they would do an updated Mini SDI I would jump all over it.
Yeah, all our cameras and gear are HDMI. I feel your pain. At the same time, I feel like if I buy HDMI-based gear now it's going to be really old/inflexible in a couple years. Decisions, decisions.
We started using the ATEM Studio Pro HD which has 4 HDMI and 4 SDI inputs. All the cameras have to be set to the same res/frame rate and you need a separate SDI capture card to connect to a computer for streaming. It also only does 20 still graphics at a time but you can use a dedicated gfx computer as an input. The most annoying parts are that it doesn't include a power cable and connecting to a computer for the first time sucks because you need to find an open firewall port when you set the IP address.
Appreciate the input, but no thanks. We also use the M/Es on our Tricaster extensively and it sounds like a lot of these solutions don't support M/E or you have to jimmy them in some way to make them work.
Lots to chew on here. I have used all these alternatives and they all have their place. VMix is a really impressive piece of software and I've used the high end version including the instant replay option. However, as noted, the learning curve is substantial and one has to be ready to troubleshoot when updates arrive from Microsoft or other vendors who have a piece of the software puzzle. Blackmagic has been quite well covered as well. My suggestion would be to also take a good look at Ross. You will pay more but once you are using a Carbonite switcher, you'll not regret having spent the extra money. Of course, there are degrees here as well. The Carbonite solo is a great unit but does not have the internal recording/streaming/motion graphics capabilities which you would get from other sources. The full system with all the video, audio, and graphics features is the Graphite. Well worth the investment but with cost in the $30K range, its out of reach for many. I would suggest however, that for serious production for people who don't want to fight with the technology, it provides superior overall value. Good luck with your decision.
They're so expensive, though. I can get a PCIe HDMI card with four ports for like $150. The NDI encoders are over $400 for just two HDMI ports. So I would need to spend $800 to get the same functionality. I get that a lot of people on here hate Black Magic, but the price difference is insane.
Ah, yeah. Now I see they're $500. I guess I was remembering the one with a single HDMI input. Still $300 cheaper, though. At least with Vmix you don't have to buy an adapter just to monitor the program like you do with a new Tricaster Mini 4K.
There’s some major major perks though to the NDI encoder approach though that make it not really a fair comparison to a 4 channel PCI card.
1) Much longer, affordable Ethernet cables for your camera runs instead of HDMI.
2) Built in tally and Comms plus poe power for camera or accessories. All in one cable.
3) If one encoder malfunctions you still have the other three inputs where as when that blackmagic card fails, you have no inputs.
4) Any iPhones or computers on the network can monitor any camera or output from vmix.
5) You don’t need a desktop PC so laptops are an option and you can have a backup standing by without additional capture devices.
We already have tons of long HDMI cables. We've been using a Tricaster Mini for five years now so we're all geared up on that end. But we're ready to move away from Tricaster for our primary switcher. Even if we buy the Decklink Quad for our cameras/inputs with Vmix we would still be able to use the other features of NDI. I'm definitely leaning this direction. Building a new rig for the studio would also be kind of killing several birds with one stone. We could use it for faster rendering and a whole bunch of other stuff. The problem is finding a GPU right now. Bitcoin miners buy them all out as soon as they go on sale. Thank you very much for your input! Definitely something else to consider.
I’ve been a fan of the versatility of vMix. It’s computer based so you have to get a little creative if you want something similar to a multiple ME switcher with a T bar. We have a stream deck that works pretty well as a switcher.
I just read some stuff on vMix. From what I understand you need to buy a fairly powerful PC to run it. But how does it accept all the inputs? A typical PC doesn't have four HDMI in ports. Would we need to buy some piece of gear to plug all our cameras into?
Easiest way is to get a Desktop PC with a Blackmagic Decklink card, doesn't need to be very powerful, but that is depending on you needs (I run 2 camera setups 1080p25 on my 5yo laptop)
My company is transitioning away from Tricaster TC-1's which we have 6 of. 3/6 of them have gone back to NewTek in Texas in the past year for repairs. Because of covid, we didn't get them back for 2-3 months. Not to mention the repairs cost anywhere from $3000-$6000. One of the repairs was a motherboard replacement + hard drive and it cost over $3500. Like what the fuck? We built a beefy vMix computer for \~$3600 with all the fixings (3070, ThreadRipper 3960x, 128GB RAM, 6 TBs of storage, BeQuiet! Dark Base Pro 900 case, BlackMagic DeckLink Duo2, etc) and it has worked flawlessly for all of our productions. Anything breaks? Go to the computer store and replace the part. No more NewTek, no more NewTek support, no more shitty firmware updates that break the machine. vMix is SUPER flexible and you don't need as much outboard gear. Our Tricaster set-ups would use 3-5 laptops to get all of our inputs (Zoom, PPT, etc) and now I only need 1 extra laptop and a bunch of monitors for my current workflow. Been using it with a Stream Deck XL which acts as my switcher controller. Shortcuts in vMix are super robust in what they can do and most of my shows are automated with shortcuts I've set when I press certain buttons on the Stream Deck. Done with NewTek TBH (except NDI - NDI rules). OP, send me a DM if you want to chat vMix and production.
Really value that feedback - I've had a couple of Tricasters currently use a 410 and can't see me going Newtek again.
My vMix rigs each include a Blackmagic DeckLink Quad HDMI Recorder, and since that occupied my last PCIe slot, additional captures using Magewell HDMI-to-USB 3.0 dongles. Got one running as we speak with 8 capture inputs, 4 on the card, plus 4 dongles.
How many cameras? Basically you'll end up with some capture cards for inputs and some GFX cards for outputs. Unfortunately it's really difficult to get components at a reasonable price right now. I agree that replacing the TriCaster with a VMix box is totally reasonable. I haven't ever been a fan of TriCrappers, but the time to build was like 12 months ago, or 12 months from now (maybe, if supply issues resolve themselves).
We use three cameras at a time, plus a net input. Ideally, we would need to have at least four HDMI inputs.
>A typical PC doesn't have four HDMI in ports. Would we need to buy some piece of gear to plug al Decklink Quad HDMI Recorder it is for you then. Good price too.
If you can buy the components I'd say get a super beefy MoBo with a lot of PCIE slots and get a 4x HDMI capture card and a 4x capture SDI card. Whatever you want for GPU (but stick with Nvidia, as much of an AMD fanboy as I am their cards are optimized for h.26x encoding) then a super beefy Ryzen CPU (like the 5950x) like 128 gigs of ram (4x32gb sticks) a few 2TB SDD's and uh yeah. You're probably at or around what a new tricaster with 8 in and 4 outs would cost, or possibly less, and the machine is more versatile. Depending on GPU it could also double as a media server.
On top of our Decklink Duo2, we use a bunch of USB 3.0 Magwell's to send/receive either SDI or HDMI. They're about $500 a pop and you can buy more as you need them + a good powered USB hub.
Vmix posts the specs of "reference systems" they recommend, based on how many cameras and various use cases. https://www.vmix.com/products/vmix-reference-systems.aspx
* Cheap and good enough - blackmagic * Medium and reliable - BYO Vmix PC * Expensive and mission critical - Ross Carbonite I have all the above. Most current pandemic work is in Vmix due to remotes participants. Blackmagic ATEM 4K for studio but make sure it’s one of the few that are resolution independent! Tricaster is great because you can throw multiple resolutions at it. Every system has its own quirks to figure out, so don’t devalue the knowledge your team has on Tricaster. Vmix has a big learning curve but you can build a custom machine with capture cards and there’s plugins to use Tricaster Control surfaces.
BlackMagic put scalers on every input of the ATEM Television Studio 4k, which makes it infinitely more versatile than its predecessor. Then they went and did the same on the ATEM Minis which sell for next to nothing. And they haven't touched anything in the former lineup since the Mini launched. Such a shame, because their stuff can usually be made to punch above its weight class if you have spares and can get creative with it.
Yes but…Those scalers are not great, and I’m being generous here. Keep that in mind if you are dealing with graphics and small print.
Very true. You get what you pay for. Just amazing to see the low end getting so much cheaper.
I always laugh a little bit when I see people who have entire setups of black magic. Right before the pandemic I went to streaming media East and was talking with one of the resellers there and they were really pushing black magic at me and I said well why do I want it? It breaks down so much and he says "that's why you by 2 they're cheap enough."
[удалено]
Oh I know a Carbonite is on my dream list. I've been firmly in the v-mix camp for a long time and it really does a fantastic job.
A lot of comments here for vMix. Re: beefy PC, pay attention to their reference builds on the website. It depends what you need it to do. If its encoding several streams the GPU w onboard encoding is a big deal. If you are using a separate encoder (a lot of us are using Elemental stuff) this isn't as important. Same with graphics/playback. Yeah, if you want to chroma key while running CG, and encoding and recording ISOs and boxes/layers/DVE...yeah that requires some processing. IMHO, download the 60 day trial on a reasonably normal PC and give it a whirl. I can run straight cut shows w video playback on my personal i5 tower and a 3gig GPU.
Vmix pc specs and under rated. I use a 3 year old Alienware 17 laptop $1,700, a thunderbolt 3 expansion case $500 with an BM 4k extreme $500, BM deck link Quad 2 (8 hd sdi in or outs) $900, misc cables $200 plus what ever Vmix level you need. The best part you can buy to 4k now and only pay the difference if you need to go bigger. I can run 6 hd sdi and one 4k, vmix remote callers, stream to three services record min. 2 feeds and have 4 output running and the most my system is taxed in 60.%. Extras, 2 steams decks and a Motu 4 USB audio interface. My system has never let me down and Vmix updates have been solid.
ATEM TVS 4k, hyperdeck, and two teradek cubes, and you're gold and under $8k.
This. We use an ATEM 2 m/e 4K set up with newtek talkshows to bring in remote channels and our three studio cameras. We use four hyperdeck minis for playback of clips, animated lower thirds, etc. We use LiveU solos for encoding since we can also use those in the field. Super flexible and solid.
Maybe. But once you’re up and running it becomes intuitive. And if anything goes down it’s an easy swap or work around. Good luck with whatever new setup you go for!
My concern is that the more moving parts the more opportunity for problems mid-broadcast.
Alternatively, consider what would happen if your TriCaster failed. It's a single piece of equipment and there is very little modularity in the way it's setup. If you split out your record, mix, and encode responsibilities you can more easily upgrade pieces of the system as your needs change.
We've had our Tricaster for five years and it's only crashed one time during a live broadcast and that was because we had installed the new firmware incorrectly. It may have issues during a live broadcast like a Net input getting glitchy or the audio getting wonky, but it's never outright crashed.
I just don’t understand asking what the alternatives are and then being surprised when the features and price point don’t line up perfectly.
I don't understand this comment.
Totally agree. More chance to upgrade. More chance to bypass a failed part and get creative when something happens. I like flexibility but understand the need for simplicity as well.
This sounds so complicated with lots of moving parts and a lot of new things to learn.
This would be my recommendation too, with the only caveat being that BMD has made huge leaps forward in what their ATEM architecture is capable of that they've failed to bring to anything but the ATEM Mini lineup. I feel that we are likely to see a shakeup in what was previously the low-end of the ATEM specter, namely the ATEM TVS 4k and the like so I don't know that I'd be buying on right now if I could make my current setup last a bit longer. On the recording front (and since that's where OPs current TriCaster gremlin is living) I really dig the HyperDeck Studio Minis. I paired mine with AngelBird SD cards for recording and they have been bulletproof. I'd consider snagging those now and working them into OP's existing setup to take the recording out of the TriCaster's scope and then cool my jets on the switcher upgrade until supply chains settle down a bit.
Thanks!
I have a couple of Hyperdeck minis but don't really use them, haven't put them in the flypacks yet. I've heard of people having issues with them, however.
>ATEM How do you handle motion graphics and B roll with that setup? It also says the ATEM can only handle 20 images at a time. Why spend so much money just to archive broadcasts? I can buy a capture card for less than $200 that will archive up to 4K/60.
I don't roll motion graphics often, but do so from a generic playback PC when needed. The ATEM does motion graphics but I don't remember how many frames it can playback per clip. The hyperdecks aren't expensive, and are reliable and simple. If you're looking at saving every cent then a capture card will do the job, but you're adding a PC to capture too, and that all increases the complexity and decreases reliability. If you're looking at saving that much you could just have the cloud archive the stream and save even more. The cubes are to stream redundantly. You could cut those out and just stream from the ATEM (edit: check my claim, not sure if the TVS 4k streams), but if I had ~$8k as the ceiling I'd want redundant encoders but I am risk adverse for this work.
Cloud archives look terrible. One of the issues we're having right now is that the Tricaster Mini 1080/30 archives are a crazy low bitrate and look terrible after YouTube compression.
That does depend on your cloud setup, but yes, not likely that an h.264 archive is gonna look as good as prores. It's a compromise. Still, h.264@1080 should look pretty good as long as you're around 5-10mbps depending on the content. YouTube should automatically archive at whatever res/quality you're sending at, so if you're streaming 1080p@10mbps it really should look good after archiving.
It's all about the bitrate. For instance the Tricaster Mini can only archive 1080/30 at 8mbps. We run a lot of video game gameplay B roll with lots of action/motion and it looks awful once it goes through YouTube's compression. IMO an archive file needs to be at least 25mbps and preferably 60FPS.
What do you use the cubes for in this setup?
The cubes take the HD-SDI video out of the switcher and stream it via rtmp to a streaming server (YouTube, Wowza, Azure, etc.). We run them in pairs so that we have redundancy.
That’s what I thought. For some reason I missed that in OPs requirements but it’s right there in the second paragraph.
I use vMix / WireCast / Livestream Studio with a Blackmagic Decklink SDI Quad 2 and a RME HDSPe AIO in a Thunderbolt 3 chassis. This is connected to a 6 Core i7 Dell XPS laptop.
>Blackmagic Decklink SDI Quad 2 I need HDMI inputs. Otherwise I'm going to have to spend more money for an HDMI to SDI converter. Plus that Blackmagic card is $1000 all on its own! Edit: Oh, I see now there is an HDMI version of the Decklink.
you can get prebuilts from certified vmix resellers if you dont want to deal with figuring it out. https://www.vmix.com/Purchase/Resellers.aspx?Country=United+States&Product=Custom+Systems
Looks in to Ross Carbonite Black. Inputs: 6 x SDI, 3 x HDMI Outputs: 5 x SDI, 1 x HDMI 1 x Full ME with 5 Keys, 2 x MiniME
I can spend an extra $2000 and get a new Tricaster Mini 4K and all the extra features a Tricaster has.
But then you still have a TriCaster, and all the software gremlins that come along with it.
Thanks to everyone who's replied! Not sure which direction we'll go yet, but you've all given us a lot to chew on. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
vMix HP z840, 64GB Ram, Rtx4000, Blackmagic Quad 2, 10GbE, 1x ssd for OS, 1x NVme Pcie, RME Digiface Dante Xkeys 128 T, 3x Streamdeck XL (1x overlay, 2x for ME3/4) 3x Birddog Flex 4k decoder. 1x Netgear AV Line m4250, 1x Peplink HD Max 2 = just perrfect
I'd be interested to see/read more about your setup if you have it posted somewhere
Not much time to deal in the internet. We have to respond to many requests. So, tell me what you want to know and I will make time to answer you.
I think the M/E flexibility on the Tricasters is excellent. I know Vmix can do these as well, but you need your own hardware. We have the TC2 and usually stream with Wirecast. Atem stuff is great if you’re switching a room and web type show (or need two separate mixes). We pair that with PPT and PlayBack Pro machines. You can probably going with a 2 or 4M/E with some playback machines. We use Decimators to get everything into the switcher. Embedded audio and time code that the Atem’s spit out are great. Don’t need to delay audio like you need to on the Tricasters. Hope this was somewhat helpful.
I do like the idea of the Supersource on the Atem mini extreme. But Vmix will now be the industry standard for all virtual and hybrid events going forward. It will at least always be at a point in the chain.
If you need reliability, choose a hardware switcher.
Any suggestions?
Most people would recommend Blackmagic, but reliability is truely not there. It's gotten even worse over the past year. I would recommend a Ross switcher. It's more than the tricaster, but not by much. There is also For-A. Panasonic makes a few switchers. Sony and Grass Valley are up on the high end of things.
If any of these proposed replacements for our old Tricaster are even close to the same price we'll just buy a new Tricaster Mini 4K. We know how to use it and the workflow already and it's 4K! We also won't have tons of gear and wires all over the place that can get knocked out, stop working, etc.
So just from my experience, which isn't a ton admittedly, it's not just the tricaster you have in your possession I worked at a TV station that used tricaster products and they upgraded to a newer model and still had the same issues.
The problem with the Mini 4K is it has no physical inputs. They want to force you into NDI and their converters and sometimes that’s just not the right solution. I’m in a very similar situation as you - I’m a longtime Tricaster user looking for my next one, but there seems to be a gap in their product lineup right now where the Mini 4K doesn’t have the features I want/need, and the TC1/2 are overkill.
It comes with two free HDMI to NDI adapters., but yeah, it's an added expense. I was pretty surprised just how expensive they are to buy separately. I also don't like that you need one just to monitor the program feed. Keep in mind that you can use your phone/tablet as a 4K camera as well, though. NDI is basically the industry standard now, so I get it, but for our workflow/existing gear it's prohibitive.
I use NDI for many things and am a fan, but at the end of the day... I have thousands of feet of SDI, and cameras to go with them. I don’t need PTZ control. I’m years away from going 4K. Why introduce added expense and failure points? If they would do an updated Mini SDI I would jump all over it.
Yeah, all our cameras and gear are HDMI. I feel your pain. At the same time, I feel like if I buy HDMI-based gear now it's going to be really old/inflexible in a couple years. Decisions, decisions.
BNC connectors don't get 'knocked out', lol.
We started using the ATEM Studio Pro HD which has 4 HDMI and 4 SDI inputs. All the cameras have to be set to the same res/frame rate and you need a separate SDI capture card to connect to a computer for streaming. It also only does 20 still graphics at a time but you can use a dedicated gfx computer as an input. The most annoying parts are that it doesn't include a power cable and connecting to a computer for the first time sucks because you need to find an open firewall port when you set the IP address.
Appreciate the input, but no thanks. We also use the M/Es on our Tricaster extensively and it sounds like a lot of these solutions don't support M/E or you have to jimmy them in some way to make them work.
Lots to chew on here. I have used all these alternatives and they all have their place. VMix is a really impressive piece of software and I've used the high end version including the instant replay option. However, as noted, the learning curve is substantial and one has to be ready to troubleshoot when updates arrive from Microsoft or other vendors who have a piece of the software puzzle. Blackmagic has been quite well covered as well. My suggestion would be to also take a good look at Ross. You will pay more but once you are using a Carbonite switcher, you'll not regret having spent the extra money. Of course, there are degrees here as well. The Carbonite solo is a great unit but does not have the internal recording/streaming/motion graphics capabilities which you would get from other sources. The full system with all the video, audio, and graphics features is the Graphite. Well worth the investment but with cost in the $30K range, its out of reach for many. I would suggest however, that for serious production for people who don't want to fight with the technology, it provides superior overall value. Good luck with your decision.
Vmix but don’t use blackmagic cards, buy NDI encoders for each of your cameras and go the IP route.
They're so expensive, though. I can get a PCIe HDMI card with four ports for like $150. The NDI encoders are over $400 for just two HDMI ports. So I would need to spend $800 to get the same functionality. I get that a lot of people on here hate Black Magic, but the price difference is insane.
$150??
Ah, yeah. Now I see they're $500. I guess I was remembering the one with a single HDMI input. Still $300 cheaper, though. At least with Vmix you don't have to buy an adapter just to monitor the program like you do with a new Tricaster Mini 4K.
There’s some major major perks though to the NDI encoder approach though that make it not really a fair comparison to a 4 channel PCI card. 1) Much longer, affordable Ethernet cables for your camera runs instead of HDMI. 2) Built in tally and Comms plus poe power for camera or accessories. All in one cable. 3) If one encoder malfunctions you still have the other three inputs where as when that blackmagic card fails, you have no inputs. 4) Any iPhones or computers on the network can monitor any camera or output from vmix. 5) You don’t need a desktop PC so laptops are an option and you can have a backup standing by without additional capture devices.
We already have tons of long HDMI cables. We've been using a Tricaster Mini for five years now so we're all geared up on that end. But we're ready to move away from Tricaster for our primary switcher. Even if we buy the Decklink Quad for our cameras/inputs with Vmix we would still be able to use the other features of NDI. I'm definitely leaning this direction. Building a new rig for the studio would also be kind of killing several birds with one stone. We could use it for faster rendering and a whole bunch of other stuff. The problem is finding a GPU right now. Bitcoin miners buy them all out as soon as they go on sale. Thank you very much for your input! Definitely something else to consider.