Those are the same teams KC lost to though. The only difference is Loud lost to them in the playoffs because they got to face FPX and EDG while KC faces them in the swiss stage. You could argue that maybe KC looked better than loud but got hella unlucky in the draws and might actually be the better team.
I think his point is that loud had an easy bracket only having to beat edg and fpx to get into playoffs while KC and heretics had it a lot harder...also he is really biased
I can see argument for heretics being over loud not KC. Loud didn’t only look good vs Chinese. They only looked bad vs PRX. GENG and Sen were both close.
Without watching the video, maybe bc of the visa issues? If they won’t have any practice coming into the stage I can see that affecting their placement
You guys need to chill about the fnatic and NRG placement hate. Don't forget NRG almost beat Sen in kickoff and fnatic basically smurfed 2/3 of last year...one bad tournament doesn't mean the teams are not world-class.
Yeah NRG actually has nice strats on Sunset vs. SEN but just looked like they haven't played together much (which is true).
Fully expect NRG to look much better in the next split, can see NRG + SEN qualifying for the next international, and not LOUD.
In FNS’s position, it’s really hard not to believe in them. Demon1 is calm aim yay incarnate but he can also flex to controller and is a better Jett player, and Ethan is a known CS vet turned Val IGL with fragging power and a Champs under his belt with Demon1. The rest of the team is his Envy/Optic core which was tried and tested and Victor and Crashies can literally play any agent in the game
I mean Marved couldn't show his true skill level at Sentinels but we've seen so many new talents show up like Karon. There has been a huge explosion of talent, and Marved hasn't been on a top team in nearly two years.
So the only info we have on whether or not Marved is still good is his run on Optic two years ago, and his run on Sentinels which was an already sinking ship.
There's gonna be three slots, so Sen in first, NRG and Loud in 2-3 based on the day is my prediction, but 100T or Lev could easily come alive and steal a slot away
100T played very competitively against sen and lev and have had a lot more time to practice as of now, it's not bizarre in any way to think they could perform very well this season. A lot of their issues last season seemed to be confidence in themselves and each other, the addition of Boostio + Zikz can only help with that.
Considering that 100t had only started practicing with Boostio relatively recently before kickoff and their pool consisted of Sen, Lev, and Loud, it was always gonna be tough to make Madrid but they did solid in the matches they had and I’d like to have a little hope going into the season that they improve further.
Even Kaplan called their kickoff route the hardest path to Madrid and was complementing 100t after their match. I’d honestly consider 100t (and LEV) to be as good or better than loud if Boostio is as good of an igl as I think he is and can dissect Loud’s ascent and lotus comps which are largely fraudulent.
I dont think almost beating a team counts. Fut almost beat both heretics and karmine corp but I dont see them getting any placement over navi for example. Meanwhile navi got owned heretics fut was really close as an example
Then I feel like you're under rating Fut, if the results of a game don't matter then is TH equal to FPX at this tournament? I would say no because TH barely lost to the winners and FPX lost solidly to a 5-6 team
That's true but I guess the players on NRG are also proven somewhat compared to fut who haven't really achieved anything big also we need to take into consideration that there were only 2 teams from each region which were decided by a singular best of 3 which is not a good metric the whole tournament could have gone so much differently if only a few rounds turned out different. Not to take away from sen they definitely deserved the trophy.
Yes lmao. I'm already tired of this "almost beat SEN" cope. By this logic Crazy Racoon was 2nd in the world after Berlin for almost beating Gambit.
NRG is 4th because this is a prediction. If it was a power ranking they'd probably be like 8-10.
It's not cope it's ranking the teams the best way we can as the tournament was only two teams from each region and that doesn't say much about the power of teams that didn't make it. Maybe if NRG made it they could have beaten most of the teams there...how else do you propose we rank them?
I agree about NRG but timeline wise Fnatic has not looked hot since about 9 months ago now. They looked flat at Champs and showed zero evolution since then in the regional kick off despite retaining their original roster.
They got top 4 at Champs lol that’s hardly a bad performance.
And then they lost one Bo3 series in EMEA. I don’t think you can extrapolate a lot from just that.
Just the average hyper reactionary valorant redditor. They lost a close bo3 against LOUD (the scoreline doesn’t demonstrate this but haven was a coin flip that came down to a few key rounds) and suddenly people think they’re mid.
It’s super silly when even just recently they only lost on Bo3 in EMEA. Sentinels also lost their opening Bo3 in NA but managed to recover. Fnatic lost it in single elim play offs and so didn’t get a chance to recover. I wouldn’t be surprised if Fnatic even wins Stage 1 in EMEA and comes out guns blazing at the next international.
If anything, that loss to KC is just what they need to wake up from whatever complacency they might have developed after a year of incredible results. As a fnatic fan, I’m excited to see how they recover from missing Madrid.
Well 9 months is a little overkill no? In that time there were only two tournaments...in champs they got 4 which is really good still imo but ye the evolution stuff is on point, it's lazy and says a lot about their mindset = if it works just keep doing it and frankly that doesn't work in this game, in the video he says that he thinks they got slapped in the face and will wake up for the split
They went 4th at champs and only lost to LOUD, wtf you mean "flat"
You just have absurdly high standards for FNC to the point where anything but winning the whole tournament is a disappointment -- that alone proves even you think very highly of FNC
If i told you GEN or LOUD finished 4th at champs this year you would never say "damn what a terrible performance from them"
Yeah, but Loud beat sentinels once and played two other close games with them. Loud also beat Fnatic twice at champs. Im ok with them being lower so they dont get jinxed, but I feel like Loud is always underated somehow even though they are crazy consistent
hillarious to me that people write off fnc after a single bo3 loss, almost as funny as people writing off NRG when they were literally a single round away from 2-0ing SEN and going to madrid themselves
Tenz doesn't pull off that insane hero round at 12-11 when he got like a 3k on Sunset means NRG wins the map, and since NRG was far better on Ascent and stomped SEN on it they would've most likely just won 2-0
Navi has to be the most overrated team of all time. Watch them not make it to an international event this year and people will still be high on them next year, i don't get it. It's simply not sustainable to have as big of a hole as Ange1 in a team with this year's competition. It didn't work last year and there's no reason to assume that it will this year because Ardiis returned. Ardiis is not fixing anything
Yeah people are still riding that FPX/Navi core hype from copenhagen 2 years ago. IMO people in this game are obsessed with "cores" sticking together. If they haven't done anything super notable in a year, betting on them is risky at best. I get that ardiis came back, but will that really save a team that was getting knocked out of groups internationally, especially with competition ramping up?
Yeah I don't get why tf does anybody expect anything from NAVI. Their core were incredibly disappointing last year besides upsetting TL. And they add Ardiis back and we should be excited for some reason?
They only beat BBL and Team Liquid before ultimately getting spanked by Heretics, how can you say that when last year's NAVI went toe to toe with a hot EDG, a revitalized DRX and a Loud that smashed fnc TWICE to solidify their place in the 3rd spot ?
Nah, VS/DRX has a hard and permanent lock on being the most overrated team of all time.
They've been pundit favorites to win events over 0 map loss sentinels, prime Fnatic, prime Loud, and prime NRG.
They were literally favorites to win the first Masters event (before they failed to qualify) and LOCK//IN.
FPX/NaVi can't compete in the most overrated of all time contest purely due to the fact that they won an international LAN once
It's close, but right now I'd put them slightly above TH.
Though if woot is supposed to be the real deal like everyone says he is, that could change quickly.
I think it's literally that one pasta:
is it me or is kc a bit of a boring team
like u see it at the end of the game
"oh wow kc did well"
but u can never remember a round.
can u remember a single kc multifrag?
but try heretics...u can see the miniboo 3k
i remember a miniboo 3k
My impression is that heretics had more hero plays and crazy aim moments, but kc have generally better plans
We haven’t seen the real roster and currently KC is definitely better. That could change once we see the full roster. I hope they are even better but I know nothing about woot so he could be a massive upgrade or just equal to patitek.
Yes even as a Sen fan I think GenG played way worse in the finals than the rest of the tourney. Both those teams were way better than the field. Fnatic has top 2 players in every role (of EMEA players). NRG only lost 1 game and I expect them to get way better quickly with Demon1 and Ethan joining late
They had the double map ban advantage and still lost . So you think if Sen went from upper and banned breeeze and ascent but gen g played like they played the entire tourney in the finals they would have won ?
You would think this is the case but it’s definitely not true. I made a post a while back analyzing all grand finals and the actual winrate of upper bracket was far, far below the expected probability. Unfortunately nobody in the sub knows or cares how real double elimination is supposed to work so everyone just bootlicked John Riot in the comments
The games that do not do a bracket reset are also single elimination like LOL or CS. Rocket League does bracket reset, are they a fighting game? Even real sports do bracket resets, for instance, NCAA Baseball. The NCAA Baseball Tournament is MUCH more expensive and difficult to coordinate when it comes to logistics, broadcasting, etc. than VCT. Yet even they know how to make a REAL double elimination tournament.
And it’s funny that you and everyone else who supports this format keeping talking about this “massive advantage” when it’s clearly disproven from simple statistics. The amount of lower bracket winners is disproportionate by a statistically significant margin. Please think for yourself and stop just supporting the status quo. The math literally disproves your position.
your simple statistics have a sample size of 7. that is insignificant. from that same sample size i draw the conclusion that Pacific is incapable of winning a trophy and it is not a problem for any other region. They should lose their spots at Shanghai and Champs as well
someone literally made a whole post yesterday, and not one person agreed with you. How you think you are right is beyond me. If there was a problem with the format do you think the pros would have said nothing about it? Everyone agreed that the single elimination playoffs were terrible and everyone in the community was speaking about it. Not one person, even on PRX or GenG has said that it was unfair to them or that the advantage given to the winners isn’t enough. Far more likely than your reason is that Pacific simply is not yet used to FPS games and they need time to build the mentality and experience needed to win BO5s.
Lol, you know nothing about statistics. You can't use 7 data points/results to come to a conclusion that would be considered statistically significant. A literal middle schooler could tell you that.
Feel free to keep talking out your ass tho.
I think GenG crumbled no? Not to say SEN didn't play incredibly well but GenG started falling apart on Split. I think yes, GenG did play worse, but also this does mean SEN is the better team.
Probably some of the teams like EDG, EG, or LEV. EDG seemed not horrible at masters (besides Loud they played well against other teams), and teams like EG and LEV have good potential rosters on paper but were super new so could improve, whereas NAVI went all last year being pretty bad so they don't have as much excuse.
EDG? Guys who's on world stage only because of Chinese money? Guys who would never qualify if you put them where they are belong? (APAC league)?
EG - Team, that we have seen 2 games, that won one (against a challengers GUEST team lol), and got spanked (13-5, 13-7 on maps they lost) by a LOUD, by a this LOUD? LOUD who can win only Chinese teams on an International?
LEV - Kinda same, new team, big promises, 0 delivered yet. Shouldn't lost to a LOUD.
NaVi - old team, known team, masters winners, had a bad year. Got spanked by an MiniBoo for a slot on Masters, but again, known team. So why this team should be below rookies that's couldn't qualify either?
It's just, you complain about NaVi on #9, but ok with NRG #4, lol.
I find that NAVI's biggest problems last year were with their fundamentals which already seem to have been fixed from what we've seen on Kickoff. I really expect them to be in much better form going into 2024, and honestly even though they've played like 3 games each I think NAVI looked better than EG and LEV, and I do have faith that NAVI's individual players and overall macro would outshine EDG too
Its only the first tournament of the year. The teams that EMEA sent were pretty much consisted of rookies with no international experience/t2. Woot hasn't even played yet too. They will continue to get better.
Yeah but ppl doubts stem from both of them getting eliminated by a coughing PRX that not only just replaced their star player, but also weren't finding their identity, trying new comps and swapping roles around on a daily basis like it's ranked
I don't get how people argue so much in favor for what emea will archive in the future. They say, "they are gonna continue to get better", well same can be said for every other region.
If you think PRX was coughing in the games against these two teams then we must have watched different games. People had PRX winning the event after beating TH and KC because they looked like a different team.
They really were coughing bruv, suddenly turning up in Split against TH was almost magic and yet with a newfound confidence, their win over KC was a laboured one since 3rd map went to OT. Their only dominant win in the whole tournament where they showed their full non-coughing potential was agaisnt LOUD and that team was also coughing
If they were not coughing they will win the match againts th and kc 2-0 if we follow your way of thinking, and they wont lose againts gen g and sen in sentinel in the playoff
The player forms looked much better after the TH game. But that never solved their main issue, the lack of a stable comp aside from Sunset.
Having to change comps 1 day before match day is HUGE. You have so little prep to prepare for any situation anytime the opponent team does something outside of your strats. Not to mention, you will probably not have any layers to your playbook if things stop working out
i feel like people forgot that TH almost defeated Sen (had they been able to close out the maps) and even demolished them on sunset. For a young team in their 1st lan it’s pretty impressive
Tbh, this is pretty reasonable. FNC is still a very good team. One bad tournament does not mean a bad year. They only lost one game in a single elim. KC over LOUD isn't bad either, in my opinion. LOUD only beat the Chinese teams at Madrid. Regional match-ups are always gonna be close anyways so I don't usually buy the argument "But SEN vs LOUD is close and SEN won the entire thing". Playstyles also matter a lot.
Damn T1 making it in is interesting. They looked good but I can honestly see some other NA teams (EG 100T LEV) getting their shit together this off season. Also why tf is Lev not here, damn I need to watch the video
He said everyone is usually high on Americas so he'll do the opposite lmao. Funny considering i think Americas has looked the strongest they ever have. They have atleast 5 competitive teams while other regions have 2-3
He managed to sneak in (not so sneakily) 4 EMEA teams and decided to throw a bone to APAC. He was considering Lev for t1s spot actually but just felt like rocking some boats
He is talking about predictions of how good the teams are gonna be going further and not about who was best at the tourney... Last year loud were super good in lockin and fell off during Tokyo, it's totally possible for NRG or fanatic to get better
TMV is quite good with gameplay analysis but when it comes to ranking teams or predicting winners, he just spits out the obvious things, based off only recent results. I am sure 90 out of 100 people will have the same rankings, maybe NRG will be up or down.
I think predictions can be done at any stage of the year and is entirely based on opinions, but there still should always be a solid reasoning for picks. For me, I really liked Heretics so far as I always enjoyed their attacking set plays. I predict them to only get better with woot and be a top 6 team in the world later on this year. I also think FNATIC, NRG, LEVIATHAN will definitely come back stronger and be in contention for international events.
Now as for power rankings, this is what I think is incredibly difficult to do reasonably until just before the start of Champs, because that is when we get a fair idea of close-to-peak levels of all the teams and with little time to get even better, we can make some accurate guesses. At any point before that time, people hardly seem to get their rankings right because of so many reasons like meta changes, role issues, team decline, roster changes, stale ideas etc. For example, while Gen G were 2nd at this event, it did feel like to me, that they were no where close to lets say last year’s Champs top 4 teams. Now I know that it is expected of teams to have flaws at this stage of the year, but it remains to be seen if they can maintain this until the end of year, and if they can rise back up from the mental-shattering defeat against SEN.
TLDR: I think getting power rankings right is incredibly difficult until the start of Champs.
Ur saying he only bases it off of recent results but he has fnatic and nrg high on the list. Off course its mostly going to consist of teams that actually have proved their roster.
I meant to say, TMV as an analyst, does the same exact things as most people would do with both predictions and power rankings. And like most people, he will probably get it wrong. He doesn’t offer anything out of the ordinary.
While that is fine for power rankings( since most assumptions at this point of the year do turn out to be wrong ), I would like analysts to offer good reasons for their predictions and give insights on them. For example, MCE predicted EG last year to do well before start of Masters and gave solid reasons for that, same with Balla this year in Plat Chat recently where he genuinely believed in GenG and pushed for them to be in top 4 before Masters. While most others including TMV just decided to downplay important things and just rank teams based on regional strength and form book of Kickoffs.
it’s just absurd to me that KC is still rated below FNC. no one has suddenly forgot all of fnatics success with their current roster , it’s just that KC has undeniably proven themselves to be better **most recently**
genuinely what more could they have done (besides make it into madrid playoffs) to prove themselves as the #1 of EMEA?
They won a songle BO3 against Fnatic and then bombed out at Madrid.
Tbh I‘d say TH performance was actually more convincing at Madrid than KC. No doubt Karmine have good potential but they weren‘t using it very well
His reasoning behind fnatic is somewhat reasonable. It's the same team that won a lot last year. They were overconfident / under prepared but that doesnt necessarily means they r bad
Nrg was less legit as he just say they all have the talent
Why? It's very unlikely that the top teams from this year will exclusively be the teams from kickoff. The idea that it's more likely fnatic will not be a top team is kind of crazy given their record. If loud or PRX had failed to qualify they would still be decent picks for top 10.
I agree with your first point but like do they deserve to be as high as they are, just based on the record they had a year before. Had a headcoach change which is also a pretty big deal. Not saying that they can't get to the dominance they once had, it's just way too early for me to be rating them this high as of now. A fan of the team but right now I'd put them top 5 at best.
i hate fnatic as much as the next guy, but SURELY we’re not forgetting they were one of the 2 best teams in the entirety of last year, all because they lost a singular best of 3? they stuck w the same roster and everything.
the recency bias is unreal lol
I admit the game changes quickly in some aspects but I’ve never seen more recency bias in one community before. If NRG/FNC underperform in season then sure you can drop them down, but anyone trying to call them bad for losing one single BO3 is insane.
Nah it’s completely fair considering what the exact same roster showed last year and the fact this tier list is about expectations going forward.
Let’s also not forget that it was an awful single elim format which is much more likely to cause upsets, doesn’t mean FNC/NRG are suddenly terrible does it.
Heretics in my opinion is not as strong as nrg . I would personally rank prx higher than nrg tho .
I am just talking about the guys logic why nrg is rated higher
someone mentioned nrg almost beat sentinels, so thats why they are high up above fking prx lmfao .
So in that logic heretics were also close infact they didn’t get owned last map
"other regions" you mean china? Cuz thats the only plausible region. I know you ain't saying that EMEA and America's 3rd are beating Gen.g let alone PRX when their 1st and two 2nd teams couldn't even beat PRX
The fact that NOVA esports isn’t in the top 5 much less the top 10 just proves that this guy is a fraud
The YT comments were not having this Wolves slander
I love these comments. Shit straight from vlr.
?
wish he did top 10 for NA specifically then 100T might be on one of these 😔
He was actually considering 100T for the 9-10 spot tbf
I think he said he's going to do individual region top 10s next
it was more just a joke about 100T lol
kc above loud?
That is very questionable. Maybe he is thinking about the future but right now I think loud is easily over kc.
the only teams loud lost to this whole year are sen and prx
Those are the same teams KC lost to though. The only difference is Loud lost to them in the playoffs because they got to face FPX and EDG while KC faces them in the swiss stage. You could argue that maybe KC looked better than loud but got hella unlucky in the draws and might actually be the better team.
Loud looked much better vs Sen than KC.
LOUD showed much more in those matchups than KC
You forgot GenG
I think his point is that loud had an easy bracket only having to beat edg and fpx to get into playoffs while KC and heretics had it a lot harder...also he is really biased
Loud did not look good at all though except against the Chinese teams.
I can see argument for heretics being over loud not KC. Loud didn’t only look good vs Chinese. They only looked bad vs PRX. GENG and Sen were both close.
Geng was not close and sen were playing it up for views.
What do you mean? if Geng doesn’t comeback on icebox it is literally 2-0 loud. KC didn’t even take a map
They literally almost beat the champions
KC also lost to prx and sen which is funny but they also lost to heretics.
Heretics is incredible and loud never played heretics
absolutely
100%
they weren't playing like the usual loud and there comps were not it
Without watching the video, maybe bc of the visa issues? If they won’t have any practice coming into the stage I can see that affecting their placement
How is it that people are still underrating loud lmao when will they learn??
no one is underrating them they just didn't play that impressively u should listen to tmvs reason y
There's always people doing it. Maybe not TMV but just read the other responses to my comment and you'll see
You guys need to chill about the fnatic and NRG placement hate. Don't forget NRG almost beat Sen in kickoff and fnatic basically smurfed 2/3 of last year...one bad tournament doesn't mean the teams are not world-class.
Yeah NRG actually has nice strats on Sunset vs. SEN but just looked like they haven't played together much (which is true). Fully expect NRG to look much better in the next split, can see NRG + SEN qualifying for the next international, and not LOUD.
FNS really seems to believe in this NRG roster. It'll be interesting for sure
In FNS’s position, it’s really hard not to believe in them. Demon1 is calm aim yay incarnate but he can also flex to controller and is a better Jett player, and Ethan is a known CS vet turned Val IGL with fragging power and a Champs under his belt with Demon1. The rest of the team is his Envy/Optic core which was tried and tested and Victor and Crashies can literally play any agent in the game
Plus the fact that Marved was fighting for the best smoker in 2022 alongside Pancada and Mako.
Am I wrong to say that the game has gotten a lot more competitive since 2022?
it has, players have also gotten better. its not like marved is washed
I mean Marved couldn't show his true skill level at Sentinels but we've seen so many new talents show up like Karon. There has been a huge explosion of talent, and Marved hasn't been on a top team in nearly two years. So the only info we have on whether or not Marved is still good is his run on Optic two years ago, and his run on Sentinels which was an already sinking ship.
he made sen look 5x better than they looked before, and he has had his moments on nrg
There's gonna be three slots, so Sen in first, NRG and Loud in 2-3 based on the day is my prediction, but 100T or Lev could easily come alive and steal a slot away
100T... Lmao. I get that the addition of Boostio is great but 100T always overrated.
100T played very competitively against sen and lev and have had a lot more time to practice as of now, it's not bizarre in any way to think they could perform very well this season. A lot of their issues last season seemed to be confidence in themselves and each other, the addition of Boostio + Zikz can only help with that.
Wait until champ and Potter gonna pull up her shit and EG 2 time vct champ winer
Did you watch them play? They looked good.
Considering that 100t had only started practicing with Boostio relatively recently before kickoff and their pool consisted of Sen, Lev, and Loud, it was always gonna be tough to make Madrid but they did solid in the matches they had and I’d like to have a little hope going into the season that they improve further. Even Kaplan called their kickoff route the hardest path to Madrid and was complementing 100t after their match. I’d honestly consider 100t (and LEV) to be as good or better than loud if Boostio is as good of an igl as I think he is and can dissect Loud’s ascent and lotus comps which are largely fraudulent.
They look good despite losing, boostio and zikz are doing a great job saving the old 100t core from mediocrity
Next international, 3 teams from each region so... All of those 3 have chance to qualify
It’s gonna be 100t, sen, and NRG going to Shanghai
I dont think almost beating a team counts. Fut almost beat both heretics and karmine corp but I dont see them getting any placement over navi for example. Meanwhile navi got owned heretics fut was really close as an example
Then I feel like you're under rating Fut, if the results of a game don't matter then is TH equal to FPX at this tournament? I would say no because TH barely lost to the winners and FPX lost solidly to a 5-6 team
That's true but I guess the players on NRG are also proven somewhat compared to fut who haven't really achieved anything big also we need to take into consideration that there were only 2 teams from each region which were decided by a singular best of 3 which is not a good metric the whole tournament could have gone so much differently if only a few rounds turned out different. Not to take away from sen they definitely deserved the trophy.
I also agree sen deserved it. But in all regions attending teams could be fully different as well. Hyped for regular season
Sen has come a long way since they almost lost to NRG though no?
Yes lmao. I'm already tired of this "almost beat SEN" cope. By this logic Crazy Racoon was 2nd in the world after Berlin for almost beating Gambit. NRG is 4th because this is a prediction. If it was a power ranking they'd probably be like 8-10.
It's not cope it's ranking the teams the best way we can as the tournament was only two teams from each region and that doesn't say much about the power of teams that didn't make it. Maybe if NRG made it they could have beaten most of the teams there...how else do you propose we rank them?
And only SEN are allowed to improve over the last month? Other teams just have to sit on their ass and do nothing?
So has NRG. They had the least prep in the Americas than any other team besides EG. That being said I don't think they're above PRX rn.
100T also had barely any
I agree about NRG but timeline wise Fnatic has not looked hot since about 9 months ago now. They looked flat at Champs and showed zero evolution since then in the regional kick off despite retaining their original roster.
They got top 4 at Champs lol that’s hardly a bad performance. And then they lost one Bo3 series in EMEA. I don’t think you can extrapolate a lot from just that.
Just the average hyper reactionary valorant redditor. They lost a close bo3 against LOUD (the scoreline doesn’t demonstrate this but haven was a coin flip that came down to a few key rounds) and suddenly people think they’re mid.
It’s super silly when even just recently they only lost on Bo3 in EMEA. Sentinels also lost their opening Bo3 in NA but managed to recover. Fnatic lost it in single elim play offs and so didn’t get a chance to recover. I wouldn’t be surprised if Fnatic even wins Stage 1 in EMEA and comes out guns blazing at the next international.
If anything, that loss to KC is just what they need to wake up from whatever complacency they might have developed after a year of incredible results. As a fnatic fan, I’m excited to see how they recover from missing Madrid.
Why does this comment even have upvotes? Bro is spouting nothing over here.
Well 9 months is a little overkill no? In that time there were only two tournaments...in champs they got 4 which is really good still imo but ye the evolution stuff is on point, it's lazy and says a lot about their mindset = if it works just keep doing it and frankly that doesn't work in this game, in the video he says that he thinks they got slapped in the face and will wake up for the split
They went 4th at champs and only lost to LOUD, wtf you mean "flat" You just have absurdly high standards for FNC to the point where anything but winning the whole tournament is a disappointment -- that alone proves even you think very highly of FNC If i told you GEN or LOUD finished 4th at champs this year you would never say "damn what a terrible performance from them"
Not to mention that the decider on haven was close- it really came down to a few key rounds.
NRG also have one of the best defensive sides in the world, they kinda sucked at attacking but had an immaculate defense
Yeah, but Loud beat sentinels once and played two other close games with them. Loud also beat Fnatic twice at champs. Im ok with them being lower so they dont get jinxed, but I feel like Loud is always underated somehow even though they are crazy consistent
hillarious to me that people write off fnc after a single bo3 loss, almost as funny as people writing off NRG when they were literally a single round away from 2-0ing SEN and going to madrid themselves Tenz doesn't pull off that insane hero round at 12-11 when he got like a 3k on Sunset means NRG wins the map, and since NRG was far better on Ascent and stomped SEN on it they would've most likely just won 2-0
Then why does one tournament mean sentinels is the best?
Navi has to be the most overrated team of all time. Watch them not make it to an international event this year and people will still be high on them next year, i don't get it. It's simply not sustainable to have as big of a hole as Ange1 in a team with this year's competition. It didn't work last year and there's no reason to assume that it will this year because Ardiis returned. Ardiis is not fixing anything
Yeah people are still riding that FPX/Navi core hype from copenhagen 2 years ago. IMO people in this game are obsessed with "cores" sticking together. If they haven't done anything super notable in a year, betting on them is risky at best. I get that ardiis came back, but will that really save a team that was getting knocked out of groups internationally, especially with competition ramping up?
This will either turn into a prophecy or a funny copypasta in due time
Yeah I don't get why tf does anybody expect anything from NAVI. Their core were incredibly disappointing last year besides upsetting TL. And they add Ardiis back and we should be excited for some reason?
Pfft duh 🙄 It's a masters winning roster remember? Of course they're obviously insane.
Navi has been hella mid since they won masters. But they still look way better rn with ardiss then they did with cned last year.
They only beat BBL and Team Liquid before ultimately getting spanked by Heretics, how can you say that when last year's NAVI went toe to toe with a hot EDG, a revitalized DRX and a Loud that smashed fnc TWICE to solidify their place in the 3rd spot ?
Sounds like you're severely underrating Heretics
Eh they destroyed on Breeze with MiniBoo having an insane performance but they could have definitely taken Sunset if a few rounds had gone different
True for EDG and DRX, but LOUD was in a slump early in champs
Loud were only in a slump in their opening game
Nah, VS/DRX has a hard and permanent lock on being the most overrated team of all time. They've been pundit favorites to win events over 0 map loss sentinels, prime Fnatic, prime Loud, and prime NRG. They were literally favorites to win the first Masters event (before they failed to qualify) and LOCK//IN. FPX/NaVi can't compete in the most overrated of all time contest purely due to the fact that they won an international LAN once
TH is underrated, they are gonna be nasty now that they dont have to play with a sub
Miniboo has exams in pretty sure so they will still be playing with a sub just for a different player
it's only for the first match. they will be both playing with miniboo and woot after.
Surely they can win against giants surely 🫣
imagine if they win against fnc and losses vs gx, that would be funny  (they will win both games 🤞🏻)
imagine its a zellsis pancada situation and they play worse with the their main guy
NRG over prx is a crackhead take ngl
Even as an NRG fan I agree it’s not the best ranking if we are looking at current results. However I could see NRG having a higher ceiling this year.
Am I the only one who thinks TH feels stronger than KC?
I guess since they haven't fielded their full roster yet, there's still some question marks.
It's close, but right now I'd put them slightly above TH. Though if woot is supposed to be the real deal like everyone says he is, that could change quickly.
TH come out swinging on every map and they start losing once the enemy team adapts so if they can fix that i could almost see them winning shanghai
I completely agree
I think it's literally that one pasta: is it me or is kc a bit of a boring team like u see it at the end of the game "oh wow kc did well" but u can never remember a round. can u remember a single kc multifrag? but try heretics...u can see the miniboo 3k i remember a miniboo 3k My impression is that heretics had more hero plays and crazy aim moments, but kc have generally better plans
We haven’t seen the real roster and currently KC is definitely better. That could change once we see the full roster. I hope they are even better but I know nothing about woot so he could be a massive upgrade or just equal to patitek.
My top 5 are GenG Sen FNC Prx NRG, Then some arrangement of Loud TH KC Rare moment where I pretty much agree with TMV
in that order?
Yes even as a Sen fan I think GenG played way worse in the finals than the rest of the tourney. Both those teams were way better than the field. Fnatic has top 2 players in every role (of EMEA players). NRG only lost 1 game and I expect them to get way better quickly with Demon1 and Ethan joining late
They had the double map ban advantage and still lost . So you think if Sen went from upper and banned breeeze and ascent but gen g played like they played the entire tourney in the finals they would have won ?
I think whichever team got the double veto was pretty heavily favored to win the event
You would think this is the case but it’s definitely not true. I made a post a while back analyzing all grand finals and the actual winrate of upper bracket was far, far below the expected probability. Unfortunately nobody in the sub knows or cares how real double elimination is supposed to work so everyone just bootlicked John Riot in the comments
brother no game except fighting games does a bracket reset, it is not how it is supposed to work. GenG had a massive advantage, they just were worse
The games that do not do a bracket reset are also single elimination like LOL or CS. Rocket League does bracket reset, are they a fighting game? Even real sports do bracket resets, for instance, NCAA Baseball. The NCAA Baseball Tournament is MUCH more expensive and difficult to coordinate when it comes to logistics, broadcasting, etc. than VCT. Yet even they know how to make a REAL double elimination tournament. And it’s funny that you and everyone else who supports this format keeping talking about this “massive advantage” when it’s clearly disproven from simple statistics. The amount of lower bracket winners is disproportionate by a statistically significant margin. Please think for yourself and stop just supporting the status quo. The math literally disproves your position.
People bringing up statistics when they don't know how to draw anything meaningful from them will never stop being funny to me
your simple statistics have a sample size of 7. that is insignificant. from that same sample size i draw the conclusion that Pacific is incapable of winning a trophy and it is not a problem for any other region. They should lose their spots at Shanghai and Champs as well
someone literally made a whole post yesterday, and not one person agreed with you. How you think you are right is beyond me. If there was a problem with the format do you think the pros would have said nothing about it? Everyone agreed that the single elimination playoffs were terrible and everyone in the community was speaking about it. Not one person, even on PRX or GenG has said that it was unfair to them or that the advantage given to the winners isn’t enough. Far more likely than your reason is that Pacific simply is not yet used to FPS games and they need time to build the mentality and experience needed to win BO5s.
Lol, you know nothing about statistics. You can't use 7 data points/results to come to a conclusion that would be considered statistically significant. A literal middle schooler could tell you that. Feel free to keep talking out your ass tho.
I think GenG crumbled no? Not to say SEN didn't play incredibly well but GenG started falling apart on Split. I think yes, GenG did play worse, but also this does mean SEN is the better team.
I agree , somewhere in split they realized they might lose this which was visible in their gameplay.
they lost with a massive advantage, man. sen completely outplayed them.
… NAVI somehow making the list baffles like half of us it feels. I get the training + jokes about Clove but… really?
Who would you put above my boys
Probably some of the teams like EDG, EG, or LEV. EDG seemed not horrible at masters (besides Loud they played well against other teams), and teams like EG and LEV have good potential rosters on paper but were super new so could improve, whereas NAVI went all last year being pretty bad so they don't have as much excuse.
EDG? Guys who's on world stage only because of Chinese money? Guys who would never qualify if you put them where they are belong? (APAC league)? EG - Team, that we have seen 2 games, that won one (against a challengers GUEST team lol), and got spanked (13-5, 13-7 on maps they lost) by a LOUD, by a this LOUD? LOUD who can win only Chinese teams on an International? LEV - Kinda same, new team, big promises, 0 delivered yet. Shouldn't lost to a LOUD. NaVi - old team, known team, masters winners, had a bad year. Got spanked by an MiniBoo for a slot on Masters, but again, known team. So why this team should be below rookies that's couldn't qualify either? It's just, you complain about NaVi on #9, but ok with NRG #4, lol.
>Guys who would never qualify if you put them where they are belong? (APAC league)? I doubt navi would qualify if you put them in pacific too...
Come back to this comment at the end of the year and we will see how NAVI has done compared to those other teams
I find that NAVI's biggest problems last year were with their fundamentals which already seem to have been fixed from what we've seen on Kickoff. I really expect them to be in much better form going into 2024, and honestly even though they've played like 3 games each I think NAVI looked better than EG and LEV, and I do have faith that NAVI's individual players and overall macro would outshine EDG too
TMV has had some fraudulent takes for a while now, and I’m sick of it. Where is Thanos Mug Academy? It’s like he doesn’t really watch the games.
The Girl Kissers disrespect has gone way too far
If EMEA is this strong they should do better.
Its only the first tournament of the year. The teams that EMEA sent were pretty much consisted of rookies with no international experience/t2. Woot hasn't even played yet too. They will continue to get better.
Yeah but ppl doubts stem from both of them getting eliminated by a coughing PRX that not only just replaced their star player, but also weren't finding their identity, trying new comps and swapping roles around on a daily basis like it's ranked
I don't get how people argue so much in favor for what emea will archive in the future. They say, "they are gonna continue to get better", well same can be said for every other region.
Bro, PRX have more international experience than both of the team combine. We acting like KC have an identity, Magnum also just started igling.
If you think PRX was coughing in the games against these two teams then we must have watched different games. People had PRX winning the event after beating TH and KC because they looked like a different team.
They really were coughing bruv, suddenly turning up in Split against TH was almost magic and yet with a newfound confidence, their win over KC was a laboured one since 3rd map went to OT. Their only dominant win in the whole tournament where they showed their full non-coughing potential was agaisnt LOUD and that team was also coughing
If they were not coughing they will win the match againts th and kc 2-0 if we follow your way of thinking, and they wont lose againts gen g and sen in sentinel in the playoff
The player forms looked much better after the TH game. But that never solved their main issue, the lack of a stable comp aside from Sunset. Having to change comps 1 day before match day is HUGE. You have so little prep to prepare for any situation anytime the opponent team does something outside of your strats. Not to mention, you will probably not have any layers to your playbook if things stop working out
i feel like people forgot that TH almost defeated Sen (had they been able to close out the maps) and even demolished them on sunset. For a young team in their 1st lan it’s pretty impressive
NRG and 100T almost beat SEN too, almost doesn’t really mean anyting
Tbh, this is pretty reasonable. FNC is still a very good team. One bad tournament does not mean a bad year. They only lost one game in a single elim. KC over LOUD isn't bad either, in my opinion. LOUD only beat the Chinese teams at Madrid. Regional match-ups are always gonna be close anyways so I don't usually buy the argument "But SEN vs LOUD is close and SEN won the entire thing". Playstyles also matter a lot.
Sen only had +5 round difference After beating both emea teams so these games were Hella close
But as they said, this list is the top 10 after wolves
Damn T1 making it in is interesting. They looked good but I can honestly see some other NA teams (EG 100T LEV) getting their shit together this off season. Also why tf is Lev not here, damn I need to watch the video
He said everyone is usually high on Americas so he'll do the opposite lmao. Funny considering i think Americas has looked the strongest they ever have. They have atleast 5 competitive teams while other regions have 2-3
He managed to sneak in (not so sneakily) 4 EMEA teams and decided to throw a bone to APAC. He was considering Lev for t1s spot actually but just felt like rocking some boats
How is LOUD so low?
the only teams they beat at masters Madrid were the Chinese teams and TMV does not like their Phoenix + Breach comp
Clearly man's not thinking
I agree with mostly everything here other than that LOUD should be above KC and that Navi should be lower or not even on this list
Dude sneaked 4 EMEA teams here and thought we wound't notice.
TMV is a fraud of an analyst anyway, provides no non-obvious insight
certainly
Na'Vi lol
Geng sen should be like KC SEN in the play chat power ranking where they’re stretched out
Where my goats mibr??? This guy fraud for real
YEAAAHH PAPER REX MENTIONED HOO HOO HOO HOO
bro HOW is NRG over PRX and LOUD?
hot take but NaVi over TH and KC imo
why do people consistently disrespect Loud, even after they prove time and time again they are always a team to look out for lmao
NRG and Fnatic being above prx is laughable.
He is talking about predictions of how good the teams are gonna be going further and not about who was best at the tourney... Last year loud were super good in lockin and fell off during Tokyo, it's totally possible for NRG or fanatic to get better
Oh I see I didnt get to watch the video, I based my comment off the tile of "coming into".
I mean NRG were one round away from ending SEN’s run before Madrid.
[удалено]
I don't agree with NRG being above PRX but those two things are very different.
Almost doesn't matter for determining results. But it can absolutely be instructive when predicting future results.
No, EG won champs cause they were the best team at that tournament.
TMV is quite good with gameplay analysis but when it comes to ranking teams or predicting winners, he just spits out the obvious things, based off only recent results. I am sure 90 out of 100 people will have the same rankings, maybe NRG will be up or down. I think predictions can be done at any stage of the year and is entirely based on opinions, but there still should always be a solid reasoning for picks. For me, I really liked Heretics so far as I always enjoyed their attacking set plays. I predict them to only get better with woot and be a top 6 team in the world later on this year. I also think FNATIC, NRG, LEVIATHAN will definitely come back stronger and be in contention for international events. Now as for power rankings, this is what I think is incredibly difficult to do reasonably until just before the start of Champs, because that is when we get a fair idea of close-to-peak levels of all the teams and with little time to get even better, we can make some accurate guesses. At any point before that time, people hardly seem to get their rankings right because of so many reasons like meta changes, role issues, team decline, roster changes, stale ideas etc. For example, while Gen G were 2nd at this event, it did feel like to me, that they were no where close to lets say last year’s Champs top 4 teams. Now I know that it is expected of teams to have flaws at this stage of the year, but it remains to be seen if they can maintain this until the end of year, and if they can rise back up from the mental-shattering defeat against SEN. TLDR: I think getting power rankings right is incredibly difficult until the start of Champs.
Ur saying he only bases it off of recent results but he has fnatic and nrg high on the list. Off course its mostly going to consist of teams that actually have proved their roster.
I meant to say, TMV as an analyst, does the same exact things as most people would do with both predictions and power rankings. And like most people, he will probably get it wrong. He doesn’t offer anything out of the ordinary. While that is fine for power rankings( since most assumptions at this point of the year do turn out to be wrong ), I would like analysts to offer good reasons for their predictions and give insights on them. For example, MCE predicted EG last year to do well before start of Masters and gave solid reasons for that, same with Balla this year in Plat Chat recently where he genuinely believed in GenG and pushed for them to be in top 4 before Masters. While most others including TMV just decided to downplay important things and just rank teams based on regional strength and form book of Kickoffs.
it’s just absurd to me that KC is still rated below FNC. no one has suddenly forgot all of fnatics success with their current roster , it’s just that KC has undeniably proven themselves to be better **most recently** genuinely what more could they have done (besides make it into madrid playoffs) to prove themselves as the #1 of EMEA?
They won a songle BO3 against Fnatic and then bombed out at Madrid. Tbh I‘d say TH performance was actually more convincing at Madrid than KC. No doubt Karmine have good potential but they weren‘t using it very well
I don't see a point of all region team lists ngl Also finally he rates Sentinels after getting owned and owned again and again
Okay Fnatic and NRG in top 5 despite not even qualifying for Madrid is some wild shit lmao
His reasoning behind fnatic is somewhat reasonable. It's the same team that won a lot last year. They were overconfident / under prepared but that doesnt necessarily means they r bad Nrg was less legit as he just say they all have the talent
on nrg- if its a prediction then fair play. if its a power ranking then idk
Why? It's very unlikely that the top teams from this year will exclusively be the teams from kickoff. The idea that it's more likely fnatic will not be a top team is kind of crazy given their record. If loud or PRX had failed to qualify they would still be decent picks for top 10.
I agree with your first point but like do they deserve to be as high as they are, just based on the record they had a year before. Had a headcoach change which is also a pretty big deal. Not saying that they can't get to the dominance they once had, it's just way too early for me to be rating them this high as of now. A fan of the team but right now I'd put them top 5 at best.
i hate fnatic as much as the next guy, but SURELY we’re not forgetting they were one of the 2 best teams in the entirety of last year, all because they lost a singular best of 3? they stuck w the same roster and everything. the recency bias is unreal lol
I admit the game changes quickly in some aspects but I’ve never seen more recency bias in one community before. If NRG/FNC underperform in season then sure you can drop them down, but anyone trying to call them bad for losing one single BO3 is insane.
Just saying it's way too early to be rating them this high when they got a change in coach and with the performance they had in the kick offs.
They kind got found out late last season. If they don’t switch things up they prob don’t even deserve the spot they have now.
Nah it’s completely fair considering what the exact same roster showed last year and the fact this tier list is about expectations going forward. Let’s also not forget that it was an awful single elim format which is much more likely to cause upsets, doesn’t mean FNC/NRG are suddenly terrible does it.
Never said they were terrible just a wee bit high on the list for me
nrg was so close to eliminating the current best team in the world
So many teams were close, it doesn’t mean anything
It does?
Lmfao in that logic heretics were also close too, so why is heretics below nrg? Heretics even qualified to main event .
Heretics are also lower cause they have to play roster roulette, NRG may be a little high but their still top 10
Heretics in my opinion is not as strong as nrg . I would personally rank prx higher than nrg tho . I am just talking about the guys logic why nrg is rated higher
I don't disagree, I think NRG could be better but they didn't make it so they should probably below them, id probably put NRG 5 or 6
Heretics played w a sub though tbf to them
Yeah cause they were in an easier region lmao. Heretics never even had match point in that series, no idea what you’re saying.
someone mentioned nrg almost beat sentinels, so thats why they are high up above fking prx lmfao . So in that logic heretics were also close infact they didn’t get owned last map
And unlike nrg heretics didn’t get thrashed on third map
It's regional qualification so it's entirely plausible that 3rd place from EMEA and NA are better than other regions 1st and 2nd place teams.
Fnatic sure I'd give you the benefit of the doubt but like Loud at 7 while NRG is at 4? A bit much no?
Not really. We expect NRG to get much better and if LOUD keep their Phoenix comps we expect them to get hard anti-stratted.
"other regions" you mean china? Cuz thats the only plausible region. I know you ain't saying that EMEA and America's 3rd are beating Gen.g let alone PRX when their 1st and two 2nd teams couldn't even beat PRX
I wouldn’t even argue Sen is the best team. They were just the most clutch team. Overall GenG over Sen. PRX over Fnatic. loud over Kc
masters madrid literally just ended global power rankings were just decided on LAN content creators need to stop making this shit up for clicks
I understand having faith in Fnatic but way too high imo, should not be above NRG imo
emea still a deeper region than americas. impressive. LOL