Relic buff entered the chat: 45/60 range isn't even noticeable. For real it's a cost 9 mod like all the other sharts. It's not as strong as you think it is.
The strength of range is relative to the base range and behavior of the ability augmented by it.
Is 45/60 range not noticeable? Sure, **for some** abilities.
But if you throw in Strangledome, Avalanche, Vortex, Magnetize, etc., that argument becomes invalid pretty fast.
Counterpoint, Gauss’ Thermal Sunder would become absolutely unhinged. The damage is already at cap, the only limiting factor is range, and only barely.
Do you realise that it's only 33.6 vs 36.6 so 3m difference? That's the length of a Greener Gunner corpse in every direction. It's not a big deal. It's not unhinged at all. You can maybe hit 1 more enemy maybe two if they stand right.
Yeah, but that’s just one 7.5% increase, with a full set, that boosts the 33m range up to 45m. And people don’t really need others for Gauss if they’re going for a nuke build.
That's an 19% increase in area.
That's why DE is afraid to add range. Range frequently affects area, not linear distance. Each point of range is worth proportionately more, not less.
The number of guns Xaku has hovering around him is based off your ability range. When you get the frame buff from relics on him, you can go from a max of 16 guns to 32 instead. That doesn't take very much math to figure out that it's a massive damage buff.
You do know what the damage buff on Mesa and Kulervo Atlas was with the new sharts? Double damage. It's really not as bad as you think it is. The relic buffs doubles the range not adding 60. So you go from 280 to 560 not 325/340 when the buff procs like with the sharts. That's a 16% increase in total. It's really not that bad as you think.
range increases scale quadratic with affected AoE.
an increase from 280% to 305% 'sounds' like an increase of size of \~8.9%.
but considering area of effect: you have actually \~19% more area of effect.
And considering the actual volume you have 29% more affected volume.
I like that you talk about Volume when most tile sets are flat and on tiles with a second layer the second layer is so high that it's basically another tile. The armour shart increases the amount of armour by most frames over 100% and gives sweet 30% damage reduction. The 185% crit damage for melee is not only worth 9 but 16 mod points. And you say it's range would be OP. Maybe comparing to no shart at all but compared to the other sharts it's really not a good deal.
You can go above 280% range with certain warframes. For example a Mag with Arcane Coil + Crush/Magnetize augment can reach up to 350% range on those abilities, with 305% on 1st and 3rd abilities.
This would not be a good change in my opinion.
Having a bunch of one off exceptions just makes the game unnecessarily convoluted. IMO, if you wanted to seriously discuss adding caps to other ability modifiers the better option is to set the current max as the new cap. Or just set it to like 300 and call it good.
Oh I know that. Was just wondering what they were talking about. It's nice to do Trinity builds as you don't really need any range as long as you don't go below 100%
Yea like during the Railjack era there was a test server that a good chunk of Warframe content creators got to try out and made videos about em. Don't know why they stopped tho.
Yeah, I've been thinking about that too.
I loved old DE's (overly) ambitions mindset, it lead to many interesting things, albeit sometimes broken and/or falling short.
But new DE's mindset is exactly what the game needs right now. It's been around for so long and is so big that fixing, improving and polishing is needed.
Rebecca even said this devstream how much she enjoys "checking off the backlog".
This era perfectly complements the previous.
Yeah, we all owe Steve a debt of gratitude for being so stubborn and willing this game into existence. But there comes a point when fresh eyes are what it needs and they literally could not have picked a better creative director.
Bro, i just remember the pushback on things like vacuum and pets in general until finally the idea was 'just use vulps and stop asking about fixing old pets'.
Like dang, I can bring my cheeseball Kubrow into SP now! Jesus, I have a MOA and HOUND that I like bringing to SP too! And on top of just "not permanently dying" my various pets can be *super useful* outside their 'dedicated' mods. Mind blown.
Now I hear they're fixing silly stuff like Venus standing and all kinds of stuff I didn't even realize were issues, plus fixing/updating all kinds of shit that I personally felt were problems (Eclipse infusion, Inaros needing a rework, etc) and like dang, it's like I'm becoming more and more interested in getting all my nerdfriends to pick the game back up.
So stoked to have Reb calling shots, even if it's mostly her trying to clean up old tech debt.
Oh yeah, Pet Rework. I forgot about that being in there with all the QoL stuff. There's probably never been a better time to get back into Warframe. They also got rid of "Flawed" mods for newbies and just give them the real versions of things like Intensify and Flow while also reducing some of their capacity cost. There has been so much QoL work done in the last year it's hard to remember it all.
I think they just had to release big ideas and move on, I recently rewatched the NoClip documentary about Warframe and Rebecca explicitly talks about trying to just fix bugs and smaller updates. She straight up says if updates didn’t come out often enough or weren’t big enough the studio would see that player counts would drop. It seems like they couldn’t afford for those numbers to drop.
Yes, that certainly played a part in it.
Short term and long term benefits is a tricky balance, and I'm glad they can these days afford to take a step back plan for the future.
The Fortuna grind reduction is going to be huge. That was the point several of my friends noped out. Every update since Reb took over has been fire. I hope she can continue her streak.
Yeah and I even actually like Veilbreaker and Railjack. I don't do Kahl missions every week so I guess I haven't gotten burnt out. But when I feel like it, they are a nice change of pace. Railjack is still the best endo farm in the game and quite enjoyable with good AI crew.
Even Veilbreaker, as awful as the "new content" that update brought was and remains to be, brought Steel Path Void Fissures, which are so integral to base gameplay for many nowadays
They stopped cause it meant they essentially had to manage 2 different versions of the game (excluding dev build since we don't know how many of those there are)
They could just cap it the same way as efficiency and then let us have more range options. They could keep it at our current hard cap of 280 or put it to like 300 so it's a more round number
The problem isn't that. The problem is hitting high range without sacrificing strength and duration. That's why DE is more or less fine with the current range but so hesitant to put in new range mods.
True, but a lot of nukes already got enough range. You don't see all nukes running 280% range, but on some frames with lower range abilities it would be cool if they were more viable as nukes.
Most frames are limited by LoS so giving them range wouldn't do much.
Then there are the real nuke frames like gauss and to a lesser extent gara that will happily wipe out every red dot that gets close enough to show up on the minimap.
Yes, but Gauss for example Has much less range on his thermal sunder than for example Saryn or Volt, he needs to build more range than them to wipe out enemies on same radius
Because in order to run 280% range you have to run overextended which is a hefty hit to strength in return, on top of a bunch of other middling boosts that take up space. I think there's a reason why they haven't just given us a Prime Stretch
And that's why I think it would be cool to have more alternatives so you can run more range without affecting your str so much. Maybe instead duration or efficency or straight up archon shard or arcane that would give you range (after all we got arcane that gives you up to 60% str after you get 250 kills in a mission)
tbf, Efficiency already has banded limits, not exactly sure why Range can't have them.
280% range plus a boost (Helminth, Void relic crack boost, etc) already exist. So, just figure out 'how far is too far' and put an upper limit like 350-400.
Likely one of those spaghetti code things where they can't add banding without needing to rework every ability power in the game, but I can dream.
There's kind of a difference there, Efficiency needs bands because it could otherwise scale to infinity. Meanwhile Range scales linearly, it's not like you can get to infinite range like you could with a hypothetical uncapped efficiency stat.
really the less capped values in the game the better imo, it makes buildcrafting a lot more fun when you have fewer direct limits placed on builds.
They're both linear though?
I mean, I get what you're saying though, because we could technically hit 105% bonus to efficiency which would mean stuff costs -5% to cast. But even before boreal, we could technically hit 10% cost (90%) but it was capped to 25. Maybe if we had a lot more options to decrease/increase cast costs I'd agree with you.
Still, in your defense, I'm pretty sure "no big range" is just trying to prevent one or more AFK type farms more than anything. Game balance trumps limits I guess.
My point is that Efficiency doesn't increase linearly. It increases exponentially, up to infinity. Skip to the last paragraph if you're willing to take my word on that.
In the mod system, we increase all stats additively, but Efficiency works differently from the other stats. What we would normally think of as "efficiency" is NOT the same as what the stat itself represents. When I say something is "twice as efficient", I normally mean it "costs half as much" as something else. So efficiency is normally defined as efficiency = 1 / cost.
Here's some examples:
100%: x1.00 base efficiency ;
101%: x1.01 base efficiency ;
efficiency increase of 0.01
150%: x2.00 base efficiency ;
151%: x2.04 base efficiency ;
efficiency increase of 0.04
174%: x3.85 base efficiency ;
175%: x4.00 base efficiency ;
efficiency increase of 0.15
We can already see that you get way more value out of the same 1% increase as your efficiency increases. If we were allowed to go past 175%, it would get out of hand pretty quick.
198%: x50.00 base efficiency ;
199%: x100.00 base efficiency ;
200%: x(infinity) base efficiency
--Math over--
So a cutoff to efficiency was inevitable, unless DE was okay with frames having infinite energy, which they were clearly leery of.
But if we compare this to range, a 1% increase just increases the range of abilities by 1%, no matter how much you already had. The range stat scales ability range linearly. So unless DE introduces completely ridiculous range mods, there's little need to put a hard cap on the range stat, because there's no risk that buildcrafting will allow for ranges that cover the entire map.
For that much investment, I say let them have it. If someone wants to put 15 Tau shards into their Saryn nuke to wipe all 3 open worlds simultaneously then that's fine with me. I'll save mine for more interesting builds. That's so much investment it's impossible for it to become the meta.
Fair, now that i think about it in terms of cost/return, that would be 3 tau shards per tau range... thats a massive cost even with the new 4 normal to 1 tau system they're about to add
Yeah, that investment is INSANE. There's no conceivable reason to go that hard into range other than the memes. Especially since you can't reverse the coalescent process and get your shards back. I'd just wait and watch a youtuber do it for the lulz and then go about my day. You're never gonna see that in the wild.
As a limbo main with max range silence... challenge accepted if they ever do decide to make it a thing (they wont but i can still dream of 400% range limbo in normal missions)
Not a lot of options but those options are already pretty sufficient. Augur reach, Stretch, Overextended and Drift. Plus technically every stat has a similar amount of mods, with efficiency and energy max being even less a.k.a. just two
I got curious and counted all the stat mods:
Strength - Intensify (Archon+Umbral+Precision, they don’t stack so I count them as one), Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude, Energy Conversion, Power Drift, Amar’s Hatred, Augur Secrets. I’m not sure whether to count Power Donation since it’s a negative for yourself. So total of 7-8
Duration - Continuity (Primed+Archon), Narrow Minded, Constitution, Nira’s Hatred, Augur Message. Total 5
Efficiency - Streamline, Fleeting Expertise, Boreal’s Hatred. Total 3
Energy max - Flow (Primed+Archon), Endurance Drift (laughably low though, only +10%). Total 2
Range - Stretch (Archon), Augur Reach, Cunning Drift, Overextended. Total 4
Armor - Steel Fiber (Umbral), Gladiator Aegis, Armored Agility, Health Conversion, Stand United, Amar’s Hatred, Mecha Pulse, Carapace (Saxum+Carnis+Jugulus). Total 8
Health - Vigor (Primed), Vitality (Umbra+Archon), Gladiator Resolve, Nira’s Hatred, Physique, Carapace (Saxum+Carnis+Jugulus). Total 6
Shield max - Redirection (Primed), Vigor (Primed), Boreal’s Hatred, Augur Accord. Total 4
Shield recharge - Fortitude, Fast Deflection, Vigilante Vigor. Total 3
Sprint speed - Armored Agility, Speed Drift, Rush, Amar’s Anguish, Sprint Boost. Total 4
I might have missed some since I’m basing this on the mods that I have though
Pretty sure efficiency caps around like 175% (think it's uncapped for drain abilities) but to see more energy mods would be pretty cool like
+Energy
-Health
Or
-Energy
+Efficiency
It’s not uncapped for drain abilities, it just substitutes negative energy consumption impact from duration below 100% with itself, if I’m not mistaken. So it’s basically never uncapped, just gets its cap increased for channeled abilities conditionally, for example, if the duration is at 99%, the efficiency cap becomes 176% for channeled abilities.
Also -energy +efficiency would be either ridiculously useless or easily outclass the other efficiency mods depending on the numbers. I think it wasn’t done yet and will never be done because even equal negative to energy max and positive to efficiency would let a caster warframe effortlessly spam abilities while sustained by just Zenurik or allow them to channel indefinitely without a hit to the duration.
Oh I didn't know that about the efficiency thing thanks. Also yea I see what you mean was kinda just spit balling ideas that would look interesting lol
Probably because more range = more damage when we’re talking about a horde shooter.
But yeah, they should add a white archon shard, let us buff ability range a bit
IIRC, every 40%~ ability range effectively doubles the range of circular abilities. Adding more Range is something DE is being super careful about.
I do wish we could hit 300% though. It’d look nice in the UI lol.
Doubles the area you mean. But that's not always that useful, sometimes you just want to be able to reach enemies further away, like for example with Xaku.
The real reason they don't add too many range options is probably due to performance issues for large abilities that could overload the game.
No? If you have a radius of 10, the diameter is 20. If you increase the radius by 50%, it becomes 15 which makes a radius of 30. 30 is 50% larger than 20.
Basically, if you increase the radius by x times, the diameter is also multiplied by x. The area is multiplied byx-squared and the volume by x-cubed.
Black shards:
* \-7.5% Ability Range
* \-5% Ability Efficiency
* \-3s Combo Duration
* \-20% Chance to Resist Knockdown (chance to randomly slip when you move)
Corrupted shard like the corrupted mods would be awesome.
The ordinary ones like -hp +shield would be nice but I'd really like interesting ones like -primary crit chance +secondary crit chance, -weapon damage +ability damage(multiplicative because I'm a mad man), -efficency + chance to cast abilities twice(5 tau would guarantee the double cast), -shield +HP on kill, -status chance +status damage(yeah I stole it from duviri),
With the way Radius range is calculated, even +33% range nearly doubles the effective area you are affecting. Thats why we have so few range options.
To put it in terms: 33% extra range on a 30m ability (read: going from 30 radius -> 40) means going from area of 2827 m^2 -> 5026 m^2
Basically just remember that unlike linear formulas like power strength or duration that Range is quadratic, and works in a circle/sphere (not all abilities are 3 dimensional) not a straight line. Thats why we have so few range options, with Max range our actualized range increase is around 800% (30m ability ×2.8 for 84m radius, or 22,167m^2 , if you happen to include Invigorations its 1444%, 40828m^2 )
We might get Efficency eventually. Maybe. But we're never getting range. Max range hasn't increased since like....augur reach? Was that 2017?
Best we can hope for is new, novel variants on existing range mods.
Even if max range doesn't increase more sources of strength makes overextended easier to run so average ranges in builds keep rising.
I love my power fantasy, but range should never be added. It'd turn shards from nice optional buffs, into mandatory range slots on most frames.
EDIT: What I mean by "optional" [https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1ae0xbs/comment/kk6pblg/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1ae0xbs/comment/kk6pblg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I don't think a lot of people currently see shards as a nice optional buff but yeah... Range deffinitely is a stat that has a potential to be gamebreaking. I don't know, perhaps 5 instead of 7.5% would prevent that from happening?
If not, +Ability Range could be replace with something else, ig. Initially I was thinking about: Holster Speed / Melee Range / Reload Speed / Double Jump Height / Tiny Chance for extra loot on kill / Chance to destroy nullifier bubble.
>I don't think a lot of people currently see shards as a nice optional buff
I think that's how nearly everyone sees them. Basically just a way to save a mod slot or two or as a way to hit break points easier or more efficiently
Idk. Slapping some emeralds on many frames is game changing. Best example being Saryn. 2 greens and spores kill on steel path in a reasonable amount of time on their own while completely stripping armor from everything around. Yes, it’s still optional but it’s also a night and day difference.
Yeah like in what world is extra strength or duration, even, *not* basically a mandatory upgrade? If it's optional, there would be a reason *not* to use them, and currently there is no reason not to.
The reason not to use them is resource management. We don't have an infinite number of shards, nor do we have an infinite number of helminth resources. You can't have all the shards you want (at least for years to come) and especially can't have all the tauforged versions you want.
Optional in the sense that I'm willing to cough up 30% ability strength in exchange for 75% casting speed, if my frame really wants it. As going from i.e. 225% strength to 255% doesn't make much of a difference for most frames.
But range is not a stat like that, range is a stat that gets exponentially better the more of it you have. In no world would I give up something like that in exchange for casting slightly faster.
Besides a healthy energy economy, no other stat gets even remotely close to how impactful range is.
And then Green + Orange +
Purple can maybe fuse into a black gem. It’d be tedious since you’d need 2 of the base colors but the perks would probably be worth it
A + 75% range from shards alone would be crazy OP on a bunch of frames. Also it would be annoying as fuck for frames running gloom as you’d basically pause all the enemies on the map.
5 tauforged shards with base +7.5% would give about +56% extra range in total, which yeah... still sounds pretty strong.
Maybe +5% is a better value. That way 5 tauforged shards would give about 37%, which sounds more reasonable(?)
Alternatively +Ability Range could be replace with different stat. I personally would love Double Jump Height or Chance to destroy nullifier bubble, lul.
I like this even if you didnt put a cap on how high the range could go since technically if you were to make a single tauforged version of this it would be 12 regular archon shards. That insane cost would balance it out imo.
On the one hand, cool idea.. On the other hand, with the new Tau fusion system coming shortly, that could require 12 shards to make a Tau argent from scratch in the worst case scenario. That's enough to put me off the idea haha.
Combo duration should be + combo step-down delay instead.
Such basic functionality shouldn't be exclusive to Naramon, like how energy regen didn't need to stay Zenurik only.
Xaku with all white shard range increase would be so absurdly broken. My container popper xaku is already insane. Now imagine with a range invigoration and arbitration bonus for range
I would much prefer if we somehow had more different combinations of two shards that would offer unique elemental effects, like the new shards have. Cause just adding pure stats is boring.
As much as I would love ability range on shards, they would be too OP in almost every frame in the game and would be pretty much mandatory everywhere. I would suggest Sprint Speed as an alternative instead.
Why mot make it so it hits the cap for range if you combine them into a tau forged version of the shard? Like you can go ahead and make 5 of these and tau forge all of them and only then can you hit the max range for abilities make it a longer grind but a reward at the end of it is infinate range practically
\>range tauforged ahaha, no, that ain't ever gonna happen, not under DE's wing
What if they put a hard cap on Range (cannot exceed 280%) but still added these shards?
Smart alternative
It's still too strong, though.
Relic buff entered the chat: 45/60 range isn't even noticeable. For real it's a cost 9 mod like all the other sharts. It's not as strong as you think it is.
The strength of range is relative to the base range and behavior of the ability augmented by it. Is 45/60 range not noticeable? Sure, **for some** abilities. But if you throw in Strangledome, Avalanche, Vortex, Magnetize, etc., that argument becomes invalid pretty fast.
That hits the whole tile set anyway.
Counterpoint, Gauss’ Thermal Sunder would become absolutely unhinged. The damage is already at cap, the only limiting factor is range, and only barely.
Do you realise that it's only 33.6 vs 36.6 so 3m difference? That's the length of a Greener Gunner corpse in every direction. It's not a big deal. It's not unhinged at all. You can maybe hit 1 more enemy maybe two if they stand right.
Yeah, but that’s just one 7.5% increase, with a full set, that boosts the 33m range up to 45m. And people don’t really need others for Gauss if they’re going for a nuke build.
That's an 19% increase in area. That's why DE is afraid to add range. Range frequently affects area, not linear distance. Each point of range is worth proportionately more, not less.
The number of guns Xaku has hovering around him is based off your ability range. When you get the frame buff from relics on him, you can go from a max of 16 guns to 32 instead. That doesn't take very much math to figure out that it's a massive damage buff.
Gyre say hello while striking you with lightning 3 rooms away.
You do know what the damage buff on Mesa and Kulervo Atlas was with the new sharts? Double damage. It's really not as bad as you think it is. The relic buffs doubles the range not adding 60. So you go from 280 to 560 not 325/340 when the buff procs like with the sharts. That's a 16% increase in total. It's really not that bad as you think.
Shards*
You just lost all respect in general.
Sure...and who are you, that your opinion of me matters whatsoever?
range increases scale quadratic with affected AoE. an increase from 280% to 305% 'sounds' like an increase of size of \~8.9%. but considering area of effect: you have actually \~19% more area of effect. And considering the actual volume you have 29% more affected volume.
I like that you talk about Volume when most tile sets are flat and on tiles with a second layer the second layer is so high that it's basically another tile. The armour shart increases the amount of armour by most frames over 100% and gives sweet 30% damage reduction. The 185% crit damage for melee is not only worth 9 but 16 mod points. And you say it's range would be OP. Maybe comparing to no shart at all but compared to the other sharts it's really not a good deal.
You can go above 280% range with certain warframes. For example a Mag with Arcane Coil + Crush/Magnetize augment can reach up to 350% range on those abilities, with 305% on 1st and 3rd abilities. This would not be a good change in my opinion.
They can make those exceptions since they're for specific abilities. The Arcane Helmets should also be excluded from the cap since they're very rare.
Having a bunch of one off exceptions just makes the game unnecessarily convoluted. IMO, if you wanted to seriously discuss adding caps to other ability modifiers the better option is to set the current max as the new cap. Or just set it to like 300 and call it good.
Sometimes I forget about those helmets. I have a couple! haha
Xaku would get a least a bit of range, could drop augment slot for energy maximum
How would this work on trinity? vazarin for affinity range already exceeds iirc?
Not sure what you're referring to, Affinity range is not the same as ability range.
Trinity's 4 works off of affinity range
Yeah, they're saying it wouldn't be affected by a 280% range cap since it works off of affinity range and doesn't scale with the range stat at all
Oh I know that. Was just wondering what they were talking about. It's nice to do Trinity builds as you don't really need any range as long as you don't go below 100%
All the more better for the assholes using a max range limbo
You can already get +100 range from that helmith system thing once a week
Only for specific warframes most of the time, unfortunately
Seeing this made me realize how little +ability range options we have compared to everything else.
That is 100% an intentional decision.
Yea but it would be interesting to see what more options would look like,maybe dust off the old PTR server we used to have but idk if thats possible
Wat, there was a PTR server?
Yea like during the Railjack era there was a test server that a good chunk of Warframe content creators got to try out and made videos about em. Don't know why they stopped tho.
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Yeah, I've been thinking about that too. I loved old DE's (overly) ambitions mindset, it lead to many interesting things, albeit sometimes broken and/or falling short. But new DE's mindset is exactly what the game needs right now. It's been around for so long and is so big that fixing, improving and polishing is needed. Rebecca even said this devstream how much she enjoys "checking off the backlog". This era perfectly complements the previous.
Yeah, we all owe Steve a debt of gratitude for being so stubborn and willing this game into existence. But there comes a point when fresh eyes are what it needs and they literally could not have picked a better creative director.
Bro, i just remember the pushback on things like vacuum and pets in general until finally the idea was 'just use vulps and stop asking about fixing old pets'. Like dang, I can bring my cheeseball Kubrow into SP now! Jesus, I have a MOA and HOUND that I like bringing to SP too! And on top of just "not permanently dying" my various pets can be *super useful* outside their 'dedicated' mods. Mind blown. Now I hear they're fixing silly stuff like Venus standing and all kinds of stuff I didn't even realize were issues, plus fixing/updating all kinds of shit that I personally felt were problems (Eclipse infusion, Inaros needing a rework, etc) and like dang, it's like I'm becoming more and more interested in getting all my nerdfriends to pick the game back up. So stoked to have Reb calling shots, even if it's mostly her trying to clean up old tech debt.
Oh yeah, Pet Rework. I forgot about that being in there with all the QoL stuff. There's probably never been a better time to get back into Warframe. They also got rid of "Flawed" mods for newbies and just give them the real versions of things like Intensify and Flow while also reducing some of their capacity cost. There has been so much QoL work done in the last year it's hard to remember it all.
The visual clarity settings are what brought me back. Enemy highlighting is such an incredible game changer, I dont know how I ever lived without it.
I think they just had to release big ideas and move on, I recently rewatched the NoClip documentary about Warframe and Rebecca explicitly talks about trying to just fix bugs and smaller updates. She straight up says if updates didn’t come out often enough or weren’t big enough the studio would see that player counts would drop. It seems like they couldn’t afford for those numbers to drop.
Yes, that certainly played a part in it. Short term and long term benefits is a tricky balance, and I'm glad they can these days afford to take a step back plan for the future.
The Fortuna grind reduction is going to be huge. That was the point several of my friends noped out. Every update since Reb took over has been fire. I hope she can continue her streak.
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Yeah and I even actually like Veilbreaker and Railjack. I don't do Kahl missions every week so I guess I haven't gotten burnt out. But when I feel like it, they are a nice change of pace. Railjack is still the best endo farm in the game and quite enjoyable with good AI crew.
Even Veilbreaker, as awful as the "new content" that update brought was and remains to be, brought Steel Path Void Fissures, which are so integral to base gameplay for many nowadays
It stopped due to cross-platform tech making the PTR incompatible with their pipeline.
The server was super empty. Couldn't even group with others because everyone you knew weren't part of the test program.
They stopped cause it meant they essentially had to manage 2 different versions of the game (excluding dev build since we don't know how many of those there are)
aparently they stopped for legal reasons. dont know the exact details
Ye https://preview.redd.it/rbaccwb9fhfc1.png?width=1259&format=png&auto=webp&s=bdb30f640e9a478d5c98bb50dea0407fa91038d9
>PTR server >Player Test Realm Server >ATM Machine
Can I get your Estimated ETA of Arrival?
Please don't make me relive work emails on the Warframe subreddit
Right? My favorite from Indian technical teams is "Please do the needful and revert"
Lol
Yeah range is hella powerful
They could just cap it the same way as efficiency and then let us have more range options. They could keep it at our current hard cap of 280 or put it to like 300 so it's a more round number
The problem isn't that. The problem is hitting high range without sacrificing strength and duration. That's why DE is more or less fine with the current range but so hesitant to put in new range mods.
Cuz nuke frames
True, but a lot of nukes already got enough range. You don't see all nukes running 280% range, but on some frames with lower range abilities it would be cool if they were more viable as nukes.
Most frames are limited by LoS so giving them range wouldn't do much. Then there are the real nuke frames like gauss and to a lesser extent gara that will happily wipe out every red dot that gets close enough to show up on the minimap.
Yes, but Gauss for example Has much less range on his thermal sunder than for example Saryn or Volt, he needs to build more range than them to wipe out enemies on same radius
Because in order to run 280% range you have to run overextended which is a hefty hit to strength in return, on top of a bunch of other middling boosts that take up space. I think there's a reason why they haven't just given us a Prime Stretch
And that's why I think it would be cool to have more alternatives so you can run more range without affecting your str so much. Maybe instead duration or efficency or straight up archon shard or arcane that would give you range (after all we got arcane that gives you up to 60% str after you get 250 kills in a mission)
tbf, Efficiency already has banded limits, not exactly sure why Range can't have them. 280% range plus a boost (Helminth, Void relic crack boost, etc) already exist. So, just figure out 'how far is too far' and put an upper limit like 350-400. Likely one of those spaghetti code things where they can't add banding without needing to rework every ability power in the game, but I can dream.
There's kind of a difference there, Efficiency needs bands because it could otherwise scale to infinity. Meanwhile Range scales linearly, it's not like you can get to infinite range like you could with a hypothetical uncapped efficiency stat. really the less capped values in the game the better imo, it makes buildcrafting a lot more fun when you have fewer direct limits placed on builds.
They're both linear though? I mean, I get what you're saying though, because we could technically hit 105% bonus to efficiency which would mean stuff costs -5% to cast. But even before boreal, we could technically hit 10% cost (90%) but it was capped to 25. Maybe if we had a lot more options to decrease/increase cast costs I'd agree with you. Still, in your defense, I'm pretty sure "no big range" is just trying to prevent one or more AFK type farms more than anything. Game balance trumps limits I guess.
My point is that Efficiency doesn't increase linearly. It increases exponentially, up to infinity. Skip to the last paragraph if you're willing to take my word on that. In the mod system, we increase all stats additively, but Efficiency works differently from the other stats. What we would normally think of as "efficiency" is NOT the same as what the stat itself represents. When I say something is "twice as efficient", I normally mean it "costs half as much" as something else. So efficiency is normally defined as efficiency = 1 / cost. Here's some examples: 100%: x1.00 base efficiency ; 101%: x1.01 base efficiency ; efficiency increase of 0.01 150%: x2.00 base efficiency ; 151%: x2.04 base efficiency ; efficiency increase of 0.04 174%: x3.85 base efficiency ; 175%: x4.00 base efficiency ; efficiency increase of 0.15 We can already see that you get way more value out of the same 1% increase as your efficiency increases. If we were allowed to go past 175%, it would get out of hand pretty quick. 198%: x50.00 base efficiency ; 199%: x100.00 base efficiency ; 200%: x(infinity) base efficiency --Math over-- So a cutoff to efficiency was inevitable, unless DE was okay with frames having infinite energy, which they were clearly leery of. But if we compare this to range, a 1% increase just increases the range of abilities by 1%, no matter how much you already had. The range stat scales ability range linearly. So unless DE introduces completely ridiculous range mods, there's little need to put a hard cap on the range stat, because there's no risk that buildcrafting will allow for ranges that cover the entire map.
For that much investment, I say let them have it. If someone wants to put 15 Tau shards into their Saryn nuke to wipe all 3 open worlds simultaneously then that's fine with me. I'll save mine for more interesting builds. That's so much investment it's impossible for it to become the meta.
Fair, now that i think about it in terms of cost/return, that would be 3 tau shards per tau range... thats a massive cost even with the new 4 normal to 1 tau system they're about to add
Yeah, that investment is INSANE. There's no conceivable reason to go that hard into range other than the memes. Especially since you can't reverse the coalescent process and get your shards back. I'd just wait and watch a youtuber do it for the lulz and then go about my day. You're never gonna see that in the wild.
As a limbo main with max range silence... challenge accepted if they ever do decide to make it a thing (they wont but i can still dream of 400% range limbo in normal missions)
Not a lot of options but those options are already pretty sufficient. Augur reach, Stretch, Overextended and Drift. Plus technically every stat has a similar amount of mods, with efficiency and energy max being even less a.k.a. just two I got curious and counted all the stat mods: Strength - Intensify (Archon+Umbral+Precision, they don’t stack so I count them as one), Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude, Energy Conversion, Power Drift, Amar’s Hatred, Augur Secrets. I’m not sure whether to count Power Donation since it’s a negative for yourself. So total of 7-8 Duration - Continuity (Primed+Archon), Narrow Minded, Constitution, Nira’s Hatred, Augur Message. Total 5 Efficiency - Streamline, Fleeting Expertise, Boreal’s Hatred. Total 3 Energy max - Flow (Primed+Archon), Endurance Drift (laughably low though, only +10%). Total 2 Range - Stretch (Archon), Augur Reach, Cunning Drift, Overextended. Total 4 Armor - Steel Fiber (Umbral), Gladiator Aegis, Armored Agility, Health Conversion, Stand United, Amar’s Hatred, Mecha Pulse, Carapace (Saxum+Carnis+Jugulus). Total 8 Health - Vigor (Primed), Vitality (Umbra+Archon), Gladiator Resolve, Nira’s Hatred, Physique, Carapace (Saxum+Carnis+Jugulus). Total 6 Shield max - Redirection (Primed), Vigor (Primed), Boreal’s Hatred, Augur Accord. Total 4 Shield recharge - Fortitude, Fast Deflection, Vigilante Vigor. Total 3 Sprint speed - Armored Agility, Speed Drift, Rush, Amar’s Anguish, Sprint Boost. Total 4 I might have missed some since I’m basing this on the mods that I have though
Pretty sure efficiency caps around like 175% (think it's uncapped for drain abilities) but to see more energy mods would be pretty cool like +Energy -Health Or -Energy +Efficiency
It’s not uncapped for drain abilities, it just substitutes negative energy consumption impact from duration below 100% with itself, if I’m not mistaken. So it’s basically never uncapped, just gets its cap increased for channeled abilities conditionally, for example, if the duration is at 99%, the efficiency cap becomes 176% for channeled abilities. Also -energy +efficiency would be either ridiculously useless or easily outclass the other efficiency mods depending on the numbers. I think it wasn’t done yet and will never be done because even equal negative to energy max and positive to efficiency would let a caster warframe effortlessly spam abilities while sustained by just Zenurik or allow them to channel indefinitely without a hit to the duration.
Oh I didn't know that about the efficiency thing thanks. Also yea I see what you mean was kinda just spit balling ideas that would look interesting lol
Efficiency by itself isn't capped, but abilities' cost can't go lower than 25%
does growing power count?
I’d say yes since I included proc effects like Coversion and Mecha Pulse, I just don’t have it so I forgot to include it
IIRC they regretted even adding augur reach. They REALLY don't want us getting more range.
Probably because more range = more damage when we’re talking about a horde shooter. But yeah, they should add a white archon shard, let us buff ability range a bit
Sad xaku main noises :(
Cries in Archon Stretch.
That would be very nice, but im 100% sure they never gonna release more sources of ability range.
IIRC, every 40%~ ability range effectively doubles the range of circular abilities. Adding more Range is something DE is being super careful about. I do wish we could hit 300% though. It’d look nice in the UI lol.
Doubles the area you mean. But that's not always that useful, sometimes you just want to be able to reach enemies further away, like for example with Xaku. The real reason they don't add too many range options is probably due to performance issues for large abilities that could overload the game.
You know I never thought of performance issue and Warframe in the same sentence lol. That may actually cause some issues yeah.
[удалено]
No? If you have a radius of 10, the diameter is 20. If you increase the radius by 50%, it becomes 15 which makes a radius of 30. 30 is 50% larger than 20. Basically, if you increase the radius by x times, the diameter is also multiplied by x. The area is multiplied byx-squared and the volume by x-cubed.
Somebody didn't pay attention in primary school math class...
We can hit 300%. Range invigoration
Black shards: * \-7.5% Ability Range * \-5% Ability Efficiency * \-3s Combo Duration * \-20% Chance to Resist Knockdown (chance to randomly slip when you move)
chance to randomly slip? sounds like smash bros brawl
Corrupted shard like the corrupted mods would be awesome. The ordinary ones like -hp +shield would be nice but I'd really like interesting ones like -primary crit chance +secondary crit chance, -weapon damage +ability damage(multiplicative because I'm a mad man), -efficency + chance to cast abilities twice(5 tau would guarantee the double cast), -shield +HP on kill, -status chance +status damage(yeah I stole it from duviri),
-primary crit would be fucking amazing for the zariman incarnons.
I’d like a +strength -range or +strength shard that induces some kind of cooldown. Or +strength -HP
We are NEVER going to get -crit chance for either primaries or secondaries as long as Laetum and Phenmor are the way they are lol
100% Chance to slip will make nezha the fastest Warframe
Hmm, made me think about "corrupted" shard or overdrive mode, where you double the selected bonus, but all other options turn into debuffs
So the Blacks are portrayed as have no redeeming qualities as usual… 100+ upvotes
Why it gotta be black? Chuck Nice wants to know.
With the way Radius range is calculated, even +33% range nearly doubles the effective area you are affecting. Thats why we have so few range options. To put it in terms: 33% extra range on a 30m ability (read: going from 30 radius -> 40) means going from area of 2827 m^2 -> 5026 m^2
Yeah, I think I got carried away with that +Ability Range. A man can dream tho. xd
Basically just remember that unlike linear formulas like power strength or duration that Range is quadratic, and works in a circle/sphere (not all abilities are 3 dimensional) not a straight line. Thats why we have so few range options, with Max range our actualized range increase is around 800% (30m ability ×2.8 for 84m radius, or 22,167m^2 , if you happen to include Invigorations its 1444%, 40828m^2 )
This Tenno maths.
We might get Efficency eventually. Maybe. But we're never getting range. Max range hasn't increased since like....augur reach? Was that 2017? Best we can hope for is new, novel variants on existing range mods. Even if max range doesn't increase more sources of strength makes overextended easier to run so average ranges in builds keep rising.
I love my power fantasy, but range should never be added. It'd turn shards from nice optional buffs, into mandatory range slots on most frames. EDIT: What I mean by "optional" [https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1ae0xbs/comment/kk6pblg/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1ae0xbs/comment/kk6pblg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I don't think a lot of people currently see shards as a nice optional buff but yeah... Range deffinitely is a stat that has a potential to be gamebreaking. I don't know, perhaps 5 instead of 7.5% would prevent that from happening? If not, +Ability Range could be replace with something else, ig. Initially I was thinking about: Holster Speed / Melee Range / Reload Speed / Double Jump Height / Tiny Chance for extra loot on kill / Chance to destroy nullifier bubble.
>I don't think a lot of people currently see shards as a nice optional buff I think that's how nearly everyone sees them. Basically just a way to save a mod slot or two or as a way to hit break points easier or more efficiently
Idk. Slapping some emeralds on many frames is game changing. Best example being Saryn. 2 greens and spores kill on steel path in a reasonable amount of time on their own while completely stripping armor from everything around. Yes, it’s still optional but it’s also a night and day difference.
Yeah like in what world is extra strength or duration, even, *not* basically a mandatory upgrade? If it's optional, there would be a reason *not* to use them, and currently there is no reason not to.
The reason not to use them is resource management. We don't have an infinite number of shards, nor do we have an infinite number of helminth resources. You can't have all the shards you want (at least for years to come) and especially can't have all the tauforged versions you want.
It's optional because they aren't mandatory and there aren't enough shards to reasonably fill all frames
Optional in the sense that I'm willing to cough up 30% ability strength in exchange for 75% casting speed, if my frame really wants it. As going from i.e. 225% strength to 255% doesn't make much of a difference for most frames. But range is not a stat like that, range is a stat that gets exponentially better the more of it you have. In no world would I give up something like that in exchange for casting slightly faster. Besides a healthy energy economy, no other stat gets even remotely close to how impactful range is.
Last option "primed sure sharded"
Let's negotiate. 10% range and not a % less.
If it had 10% by default, Tauforged variants could end up being too op, I am afraid. Maybe?
I think 10 is fine. 75% range for 5 Tauforged shouldn't be too op.
> extra 75% range *Happy Xaku noises*
We gonna reach you on the other side of the screen with this one
Saryn does in fact exist.
Freaking volt nukes go brrr
_Limbo walks in_ Did somebody say range Cataclysm?
That’s 15 tauforged shards. It would be fine
For the low low price of 15 Tau shards you can wipe all 3 open worlds simultaneously. Operators (heh) are standing by to take your order. Act Fast!
Nah, being op is the reason people play. Even those "I need chalenge" dudes enjoy being op in their cores :) .
And then Green + Orange + Purple can maybe fuse into a black gem. It’d be tedious since you’d need 2 of the base colors but the perks would probably be worth it
Powered by raw Argent Energy https://preview.redd.it/sde2fjykwffc1.png?width=1000&format=png&auto=webp&s=92b4f6389e500ee3e7169f7d0cfb5514a1616eaa
Knockdown resist should be much higher, shard slots are worth more than exilus slot by a large margin and these shards are expensive to create
A + 75% range from shards alone would be crazy OP on a bunch of frames. Also it would be annoying as fuck for frames running gloom as you’d basically pause all the enemies on the map.
5 tauforged shards with base +7.5% would give about +56% extra range in total, which yeah... still sounds pretty strong. Maybe +5% is a better value. That way 5 tauforged shards would give about 37%, which sounds more reasonable(?) Alternatively +Ability Range could be replace with different stat. I personally would love Double Jump Height or Chance to destroy nullifier bubble, lul.
+ 37.5% range would seem much more reasonable better than augur reach but worse than stretch.
Stop
My ember would definitely love the extra range
Tau Cumforged
Did someone say ARGENT?? https://preview.redd.it/jntr3oh2ggfc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b15fff9d87ee64b475a149cf5e304f9b82a81c95
Fellow Doom Slayer Rhino Enjoyer
Infinity frame
Let him cook
I call primed sure footed will be selled on warframe market XD
As if people wouldn’t immediately pick the range option over literally anything those other effects could say.
I’m a combo duration slut so I would definitely get some of these shoved in my frames
this is an amazing idea
Argent Archon Shard: +10% DOOM
Im all for ability efficiency.
The white shards would look excellent on skelly xaku. Man I hope Xaku Prime isn't a tacky gold one.
1. No way they give us range 2. I really want a shard that has the ability to give frames Unbra's sentience passive.
if you put more than 2 of these in a warframe the soundtrack changes and you start being able to glory kill all enemies for health
Give me a sprint speed option and I'm in
Yeah we need a black and white shard for sure. Range is probably going to be minor considering how powerful it is
That's a very nice Idea.
100 percent chance they allow all 3 to merge in a future update
Well, since we are getting the tauforged fusion in Dante Unbound, I am sure we will get more fusions of sorts in the future
Range won't happen, but +blast radius and glaive explosion radius could.
An archon shard with argent energy from Doom
Oh no, not a archeon sure footed. Knightmareframe will list this as sss+ Jokes aside, I agree, we shall have all 7 of the chaos shards
YESSSS
That is one overpowered crystal.
10% Range/efficiency on base shard or ain't gonna fuse that waste
15 shards to slot in the equivalent of PSF?
Nono, let him cook
Argent energy
I like this even if you didnt put a cap on how high the range could go since technically if you were to make a single tauforged version of this it would be 12 regular archon shards. That insane cost would balance it out imo.
Steven universe
I don't want a Diablo Immortal level of gems within gems within gems. It's already crazy enough to farm 5x of the new combined one as TF.
I think you need an Emerald instead of an Amber for that to work. RGB and all that. :)
An extra 56.25% range for my Limbo to play with? Thanks bro 👀
I'm still mad the three new ones didn't have a range or efficiency option.
Ability range increase is a must
On the one hand, cool idea.. On the other hand, with the new Tau fusion system coming shortly, that could require 12 shards to make a Tau argent from scratch in the worst case scenario. That's enough to put me off the idea haha.
I have not heard of this, please explain?
In the next update you will be able to combine 4 regular shards into one tauforged shard.
Yes please I need more range on my shock mote wisp
I feel like range should be hard capped at 275 if they ever introduce more stuff.
Combo duration should be + combo step-down delay instead. Such basic functionality shouldn't be exclusive to Naramon, like how energy regen didn't need to stay Zenurik only.
3 out of 4 stats are shit for the cost
Yeah the range and efficiency section will not happen. 5 white shards makes fleeting expertise just laughably bad hell I think it’s barely fine as is.
But this would make brown wouldn't it?
Good
Yeah ability range is already very high, while nuke frames are fun and stuff having ability range beyond 280% is absurd and honestly not needed.
just 7.5% range? cmon, we both know more would be great.
Of these, range would be by far the most important stat boost.
Xaku with all white shard range increase would be so absurdly broken. My container popper xaku is already insane. Now imagine with a range invigoration and arbitration bonus for range
Wth is that game even Warframe? I can't recognise it anymore
I'm sorry mate but no matter what direction this game takes, they will never give us more range.
I would much prefer if we somehow had more different combinations of two shards that would offer unique elemental effects, like the new shards have. Cause just adding pure stats is boring.
As much as I would love ability range on shards, they would be too OP in almost every frame in the game and would be pretty much mandatory everywhere. I would suggest Sprint Speed as an alternative instead.
Come live with us in the palace there's a room waiting for you
They could do all of this and you’d still ask for more a few months later. 🙄
Too spicy with range.
Why mot make it so it hits the cap for range if you combine them into a tau forged version of the shard? Like you can go ahead and make 5 of these and tau forge all of them and only then can you hit the max range for abilities make it a longer grind but a reward at the end of it is infinate range practically
The range stat would be the ONLY one used.