Tyrants too. Expensive, but fun as hell. Just grab your Havoc launchers and stick them on.
https://preview.redd.it/4sqk5qtnluuc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f5aa40edb101792c4ad170f2fb41ed6d4b82b5c
Actually, Death Guard also can't complain, Grave Wardens and Deathshrouds (plus you can make regular terminators more fun with scythes and chem flamers) are cool too.
*Lowkey* best may be *generic* IF Tartaros Terminators **WITH** Legion upgrades (so, technically they are Legion specific), since they can have 3++ shields, S10 AP1 fist upgrade, option to deep strike, and assault cannon instead of flamer. You basically can build Hammer/Board Terminators, *but better* (awesome melee, 3++, 7" movement, sweep).
How that works out in point efficiency, I don't know, but seem quite cool.
>Lowkey* best may be *generic* IF Tartaros Terminators **WITH** Legion upgrades (so, technically they are Legion specific), since they can have 3++ shields, S10 AP1 fist upgrade, option to deep strike, and assault cannon instead of flamer. You basically can build Hammer/Board Terminators, *but better* (awesome melee, 3++, 7" movement, sweep).
This build is too expensive IMHO and suffers from WS 4. Also the Solarite Gauntlets are kinda wasted on them, because they do not get extra attacks from them because of the shield. Standard Powerfists or Hammers work well enough and are cheaper.
Although I am absolutely pro scaratchbuilding stuff I am against going this low effort way of building Tyrants. At least Iron Warriors specific shoulder pats should be used. Just my two cents.
I agree that they could use some extra pizazz (not mine models), for example those segmented armour "loincloths" Tyrants have should be easy to make.
I really like Havoc Launchers tho, made not-Whirlwind with it.
https://preview.redd.it/dahihrfusuuc1.jpeg?width=1719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dcbb999a26e65bb3fa6988007ad4d16e968d2be9
>. At least Iron Warriors specific shoulder pats should be used.
I'm not that familiar with the 30k range, but are the shoulder pads in that comment pic actually different than the one in the [kit](https://www.warhammer.com/shop/Iron-Warriors-Legion-Tyrant-Siege-Terminators)?
As far as I can tell it looks like the helmet and those tabard-armour things are the main differences.
I disagree.
Can you use the FW models? Sure.
SHOULD you use them? If you want.
should you use FW shoulder pads? With the quality of the transfer sheets we have now, fuck no.
I am actually a bit sad that the "special" terminators are just regular ones with added shit. I would have loved to see a modern interpretation of the cobra terminator armor or the saturnine one for the special legion terminators 🤷
Yeah not only are they cheaper than regular Cataphractii with thunder hammers! they also get to be WS5!?
I've always just assumed there to be a typo somewhere on their datasheet and paid 50 points for them.
Rout Varagyr. Utterly scary af and get +1 ws on the charge, coupled with all kinds of strength boosting shenanigans from various sources. Run them hammer & claw, great frost blades in as many places as you can, and watch them blender anything in their way.
I do think Varagyr are one of the killiest melee options. And I love them. But I will say in point cost, I think it kills them. You likely want some Character support, mainly a Speaker of the Dead for tne FnP and Hatred, I would say. And being a primarly melee threat they need a Spartan... and with all that said tbey end up stupid expensive to use. They end up at 950 for 10, thr character and the transport, before further upgrades. Excelent melee blenders, but too expensive for me to be considered the best.
Under appreciated set up autocannons and a rune priest sat in with them, getting that shrouded save on top of cattii is pretty hideous. Just a big old brick of hard to move and no one really wants to get with in charge range.
I know they are a pale shadow of their 1.0 insanity, but I will always love Sekhmet. Psychic terminators are just amazing.
As far as how I use them, I like 5 with Achaean Force Axes and combi-Volkite. Pavoni for the extra movement if it’s needed, Biomancy on the Inceptor to buff the unit and punch tanks to death. Deep strike if I’m running Guard of the Crimson King, land raider or Spartan if I’m not.
My best use for Sekhmet was running 3 units of them, deploying with Heralds and a Praetor, all running Pyromancy. 18, 5" blasts that only scatter D6", can be targeted at different units to the ones you charge, it's not technically a shooting attack so it doesn't proc reactions, doing S6 hits to everyone under them and the same again when those units move for any reason. It's an amount of anti-infantry firepower that very few things can stand against in my experience
Is the risk of perils really worth it though for something any marine is going to get a save against? Sending Sekhmet against Av3 is a waste and even if you get a wound on a terminator it’s not doubling them out
Sekhmet are overcosted (before discipline) in v2, Fire Drakes are cheaper and have S8, 3++ and re-roll 1’s in melee! #CurseYouAndyHoare
I’d argue (as a Thousand Sons player) that Combustion does trigger reactions if it lands on a unit, it satisfies all the criteria of a shooting attack, the wording is just to prevent the use of powers in addition to conventional ranged weapons
Each to their own, but in my experience it absolutely is worth it. Yeah it's not doubling them out, but it's like firing Volkite culverins at a unit; you don't do it for the quality of the individual shot, you do it for the quantity. 5" blast covers quite a few models, and since you don't have to place it on a model's head, the usual spacing trick is no where near as effective. But also, because blasts tend to be smaller from most guns in 2.0, I've found people rarely bother. So you end up hitting 5-12 models (anecdotally, based on my averages) with each template, wounding on 2s (S6). So 15-36 wounds per psyker casting the power, and then you take 3-6 psykers all doing that, and it's the attrition that gets you. Plus, after you've hit them with a million wounds, if they want to move that unit at all, they take them all again because the template persists and does the same wounds whenever you move through it. I've reduced a 10 man Cataphractii unit down to 2 men and the Praetor with them doing that, which made them easy prey for the Sekhmet to mop up. It's gross, and I would encourage you to try it some time!
As for reaction, it definitely doesn't trigger. The wording for reactions is:
> Once the Active player has resolved all To Hit and To Wound rolls, and Armour Saves are made, but before any Damage Mitigation rolls are made or casualties removed, the Reactive player may choose to expend one of their Reactions for that Phase to have *the unit targeted by the Shooting Attack* either Return Fire or Evade.
And the wording for Pyromantic Combustion is:
> Instead of making a Shooting Attack, a Psyker with this Psychic Power can place a Large Blast (5") marker anywhere on the battlefield that is entirely within 18" and within line of sight of the Psyker. Once placed, scatter the marker D6" to determine its final position and then leave it in place until the beginning of the controlling player’s next Shooting phase.
You're just placing dangerous terrain on the battlefield. It specifically doesn't target a unit, it targets the battlefield itself, and therefore no units are eligible to make a reaction against it. Similarly, although it uses a blast marker to measure the radii of impact, it's not a Blast weapon. It's not a weapon at all, it's terrain. Therefore things like Cataphractii getting re-rolls against blast weapons from Heavy-sub-type doesn't work either. It probably should both trigger reactions and proc Heavy re-rolls, but Rule as Written it does neither.
Agreed! Deliverers are one of the most underrated Terminator units in the game. Battle-Hardened (1), Deep-Strike, WS5 and access to the RG unique Lightning Claws makes them insanely strong especially if you consider how cheap they are.
They have an easy time crippeling other terminator units with their Lightning Claws as they have 5 attacks per guy (if charging), hit before all AP2 weapons, have Shred and Rending (5+) and cant be one-shotted by any S8 weapons due to their Battle-Hardened.
I don't think I've ever met anyone who's thinks Deliverers are underrated since they got their HH2 rules.
Hell, when Fulmentarus got nerfed I think pretty much every other alpha legion player confessed that they always had thought Deliverers were really cool.
Might be because Raven Guard is overall one of the less popular Legions due to a lack of unique character models and their rather boring colourscheme, but I barely see them played in my region.
In fact I see more AL Deliverers than RG....
As a Raven Guard player here, yeah not many people play Raven guard, and quite a few who do play RG don’t want terminators in their army.
Personally I never fight without at least 5 Deliverers chilling in deepstrike with my Praetor. In decapitation strike they even get 5+ shrouded upon deepstrike and thus your opponent suffers.
I run my deliverers almost evey game. They have done work for me consistently and are absolutely great. Also the color scheme on the official ones are red which give a little more variety for painting.
Inner circle knights are pretty great, as per all the DA uniques. A free custom buff (usually reaper of hosts), a WS6 sgt, meaningful shooting power, free terranic greatswords and the deathwing +1 to hit buff makes them very dangerous to near anything. They can reliably stack saves on primarchs, if they live that long.
But they are let down hard by the inability to sweep, so not S tier.
The PDF broken claw knights swap their swords for +3 str, Brutal 2 versions. Those I think are actually overpowered.
It's such a contradictory unit, they have a buff they lose if a character joins them so they can't deathball, only WS4, expensive, conversion beamer is fantastic but has great antisynergy with their volkite chargers...
I guess their job really is just to tank and sit on an objective. If they could split fire they would be a lot nicer.
>It's such a contradictory unit, they have a buff they lose if a character joins them so they can't deathball
Lots of people seem to think this, but it's not true! Hydran Exemplars is decided *before* deployment, and Independent Characters aren't assigned to units until you deploy them. This means that by the time you attach the character to them, they have already picked thier target astartes, and all models in the unit with the rule get the +1 to hit for the rest of the game. Buddy them up with ICs to your heart's content! I like a primus medicae for FNP and a re-roll on your IWND. Use them as a backfield anchor with. C-beam cannon, bully objective sitters with Volkite followed up by a bunch of power-axes hitting on 3s, even occasionally punk a character with the champion having 3W and 5 attacks on the charge with a chainfist and dagger.
The conversion beamer is mostly for blinding over watch or returning fire. power daggers give the harrower 5 chain fist attacks on a charge. They are a Swiss army knife.
The 72" blind is nice, but what's come in clutch more than once (for my opponent unfortunately) is that it gives them blind on overwatch so you can find your WS5 unit suddenly unable to hit the WS4 guys they thought they were going to chew up.
Maybe not the strongest, but I still love them: Gorgon Terminators. The blind on making saves does not always work out but when it does?
They rip through dreadnoughts. I always run them with fists of both flavours and man, when they survive and get the blind off, it’s open season.
Chuck a Librarian with biomancy in there to buff their survivability and a similarly equipped chaplain and suddenly that deathball gets even more spicy.
Expensive as all hell, but man I love them. Tarpitting units in blobs of them with T5 and a FNP built into the armour is just so great.
Same, my Firedrakes have beat the everliving shit out of a lot of things. I've only ever lost three since I started running them, two to a Contemptor blowing up, and one into an Iron Warriors warlord. They've become an auto-include for me.
I feel like deliverers are gross, but they do cost a ton of points. Battle hardened cataphractii that fight at ws5 initiative with better lightning claws AND have deep strike? My god
Deliverers have almost won me games by themselves. Deep striking, WS5, attack at initiative, battle hardened (if loyal), 25 attacks with Ravens Talons... They're also in cataphractii so 4++ and 2+. Tough bar stewards but pricey. Think 5 with ravens talons is around 275pts
My first thought was Varagyr. However, they have been well spoken for (as they are very good).
And while they are not broken I will say I am quite happy with Justaerin. I run them in Black Reaving with A3 base (A5 and S+1 on charge) and not being doubled out by S8, they are a decent anti-terminator unit that allows my reavers to focus on squishier targets.
out of curiosity, any recommendations on how to run reavers? I’m new to the game and don’t want something sweaty, but effective enough to give me a decent chance of winning.
I play in a very casual/friendly and non-meta enviornment so what I experience might not relate.
But I usually run a 10 man with apothecary in a land raider (3 fist, 3 tabar and 4 chain axe). Push a flank and charge out of LR with a speeder/jetbikes to proc rage (black reaving). They can pretty reliably beat other non legion specific terminator infantry.
I'm fairly happy with Varagyr having used them a fair bit, the WS increase on the charge helps them absolutely demolish other terminators and the reaping blow on the frost weapons and hammer of wrath are decent for clearing smaller chaff units, though a big blob of chaff will still moor them up. They also get access to some good weapons for a decent price and can combine Frost weapons and Thunder Hammers or similar to produce a good versatile unit. Their worst option is probably the stock one the models come with but you can do some awful stuff with a unit built from the ground up.
My Justaerin always seem to win melee against any other terminator unit. That -1 strength makes a huge difference against instant death. Chuck a primus medicae in there for a 2+ 4++ 5+++ against power fists and thunder hammers and you're laughing
DW termies look absurd.
I personally think with the FAQ and Tabars (and bias from playing them) that Justaerin are definitely up there...way up there... in terms of lethality and winning the death star race. Every single one has the near stat line of a centurion
What I really like about Justaerin is the BS5 combi-meltas for only 5 extra points per model. You will always take more points from the opponent than what you paid for those. I don’t think they are the best out there due to how expensive they are overall, but certainly one of the most versatile.
On another note, put a moritat in that squad and the Justaerin are suddenly instant deathing toughness 4 opponents on the charge with those tabars. Pretty expensive centurion to take though, so hammers are still probably better.
I usually take a chaplain with them and/or Delegatus for line for one reason- the only thing that will be a challenge for them in HtH is something with WS6 (or something that modifiers their chance to hit)
The thing is, they are expensive sure... But with black reaving enabled they have 5 ws 5 thunder hammer attacks on the charge which is cheap comparatively for that amount of damage. I can't argue that IW dominators aren't amazing value, but 4 Justaerin would mop the floor with them on a good charge.
Yes, although you wont have as many wounds to tank with. It’s a bit of a trade off, but not a bad one tho. I usually run them with a delegatus too, sometimes a praetor, and use them as a deep strike hit squad, not a death star due to how expensive they are. Even 5 combi meltas usually wipe out 2-3 cataphracti before combat or open up a land raider if necessary. I’ve yet to make any reavers so haven’t run Black Reaving yet.
I like your idea with 5 melta- a drop in the bucket for how much they cost. I will definitely put that on the list of things to obtain. I'd say "go big or go home" with them due to intercept, and I have first hand experience seeing how even a few surviving Justaerin can mop up a board.
Also, I'm very underwhelmed by Reavers for their points cost even though I think they are deadly, and that's with Panoptica power weapon points adjustments too: on foot I think they are too slow and I'm not big into transports personally, and with jump packs they are absurdly expensive: for that points investment I'd rather have a jump command squad although HQ slots and the delegatus tax is high the ppm difference is silly for a 2+ save. I will say that counter attack is a great ability but reavers are hit or miss vs terminator armor (power fists ain't cheap) which is why I think they are in a weird spot with SoH as a whole but especially black reaving: you need power units flanked by initial chargers.
Not saying I won't take reavers from time to time just that the added points cost for precision shots and precision strikes isn't worth it
Last edit: a decked out reaver squad points wise...I'd rather take more terminators and risk a disordered deep strike (sadly another Panoptica add on to buy deep strike) or even a decked out jump pack squad for that matter
I do like your idea of a moritat though!
Yeah I usually try to place them out LoS from lascannon squads and intercept the opponents heavy melee hitters. Those meltas have come very handy in that.
Tbh, I don’t think the reavers are any good either. Too squishy and actually not a very good investment considering that point-for-point they are probably worse than despoilers or assault squads in melee output, except for the precision strikes. I’ve entertained the idea of taking 20 of them in a squad with 10 powerfists, and make a sort of death star out of them to see if it’s too strong or too weak. Just 10 of them feel like downgraded vets.
That is true, and they also lose the bonuses after the first round, and might cause your unit to crumble as a result, which can be funny. They are still a solid secondary option if you don’t want to spend too much on hammers. A mid-tier legion power weapon I’d say.
The idea is that you don't ever lose the first round though so it's still not a bad idea. That and gambling on shooting a bunch of pistols into something. It'd definitely be fun to try
Bitter Duty does not prevent a Character with that rule from joining a unit, it prevents a unit with that rule from being joined by a Character that *does not* have it.
A Moritat can join an Assault Squad, because he has Bitter Duty but the unit does not. A Champion cannot join Destroyers because the unit has Bitter Duty and the Champion does not.
It's not that they can't join due to lack of terminator armor but rather they have the special rule *Bitter Duty*. Models with bitter duty can only join units that share the same rule. You can check pages 113 & 117 for details.
I just honestly with legion generic terminators had veteran WS and/or BS, or the option to upgrade. Legion elite termies are generally too good in comparison.
Inner Circle Knights Cenobium are my vote, which may be biased due to me being a I legion fanboy but they're also really good.
That 5+ rending (not breaching, so they can also smash up vehicles by going to S12-15) combined with a 5+ instakill meaning both proc at the same time lets them utterly mulch pretty much anything elite, especially against thunder hammers since they strike at initiative. On top of that they get a nice extra benefit to boot - whether it's rerolling hits against other elite terminators to push those AP5 instakills, or +1 attack and a base S6 AP3 to stop weaker enemies trying to tarpit them, or even if your opponents like corrupting their troops then why not just reroll all failed hits and wounds? Oh and adamantium will 3+ on top of *that* because why not at this point.
Combine that with a breaching flamer on every model and they can put down some serious hurt on overwatch, and that AP4 template clears out entire squads of anything less than a marine.
Possibly the only thing against them is that they're one of the more expensive legion terminators, at 55/50 points each, but their rules more than make up for it in my experience.
Finally, and most importantly, they look really good.
Son of the Nighthaunter here. From the moment I understood the weakness of my [legion terminators], it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of [Iron Warriors Dominators]
Contekar are a good bully unit. But the moment they have to fight other legion terminators they kinda get wrecked badly.
Atramentar are utter pile of burning garbage.
Which is so disappointing because the Atramentar were supposed to be some of the only nightlords that were up there with any legions elite in a straight up fight.
You can't beat the reliability of Crimson Paladins for Blood Angels.
WS5 Cataphractii with -1 to wound shields and a 5+ Feel no Pain that can go to a 4+ when outnumbered 2-1 in combat.
Plus, they're Leadership 10 Stubborn and can be Line
They only gain the 5+ FnP if outnumbered, and being Bulky (2) makes them count as 2 models each, so a minimum squad of 3 Paladins would need to fight a 7-man squad to get it. If they removed that caveat it would be better. Maybe start with a flat 6+ FnP too?
Either that, or if their shields also had a rule that reduced incoming S by 1 for the purposes of calculating Instant Death would go some way to making them more worthwhile.
Nah it's worth it to make Power Fists, Dreadnoughts, and Thunderhammers wound on a 3+. It's saved me soo many games that that -1 to wound roll is really powerful and better than -1 strength
That Thunder Hammer/ Power Fist May wound on a 3+ instead of a 2+, but at Str 8 it causes instant death ignoring your FNP & 2 wounds per model. I would much prefer to be wounded on a 2+ and get my FNP and get to use both of my wounds (makes them much more durable).
Dominators for the smash value and Iron Hand Morlocks, being able to not be doubled out, become line when as a retinue and be a HQ. Is incredible. It’s a blob that can’t just be moved easily
Basically copying my sentiment from the other thread, because I’m biased:
Sehkmet are expensive, but you get a cataphractii librarian with a WS5 terminator retinue and a bonus mini psychic power. That’s kind of amazing.
I'm biased admittedly. I run Inner Circle Knights Cenobium. You also have the broken claws version with different weapons which can be nuts. I just run the wrist flamers and all terranic greatswords and Deathwing with slayer of kings. Basically you get +1 to hit at WS 5 with a ws 6 sergeant. Rerolls 1s to hit vs WS 5+ with slayer of kings. You are ap3 rending and murderous strike 5+ at initiative and +2 strength. Breaching template S4 plasma flamers are ok. Cool looks. Cataphractii levels of protection. All can challenge. I think they are all character for wound allocation also. I think they are really neat.
Deathshroud are amazing. WS5, Tartaros armour isn't ideal but does help keep up Mortarion if he's in there. Battle Hardened 1 with 3 wounds. So s10 weapons instant kill meaning each guy can tank 3 lascannon shots.
Add in the scythes and alchem flamers. They're not great vs duelists but can still chosen warrior and cut down squads for your commanders or as a solo unit. Just they're expensive but still great bodyguards in my opinion and as a unit.
Grave Wardens also work great. They get so many shots to fire from toxin grenades and get a special flamer to fire. Along with making any unit that charges them disordered. They work really well for Dreadnought hunting with poison 3+ weapons and tonnes of shots.
I don't even run them well but I'm frequently impressed at how well they do given that.
I rate the plague warden terminators as probably the coolest looking version of cataphractii. Just a shame they are nowhere near as good in HHv2. Still very fun to play regardless though
Yeah... there's a reason you don't see them mentioned here. They can do alright at being defensive bodyguards with their stance, but tartaros 5++ really holds them back. They're not very good against other terminators offensively so it's basically not a great picture.
For EC, catas with fists and shriekers are better than phoenix or, if you're constantly fighting against legion-specific termies seen in this post, indomitus with hammers and shields.
I dunno
My mate always runs a block of ten and they consistently do terrible things to my dominator termies
I win out in the end but I fully accept that my blob of 10 is janky and too good for its points
I mean I'm not saying they suck or are bottom tier. They just don't belong in a conversation about "the best per point per use". Do you think the catas or indoms would perform worse against your dominators?
Would still be running the shriekers on the generic termies, so it's like trading 1WS (only offensively) for much, much better weapons that really maximize our +1 initiative trait.
1 group of Phoenix are decent for bodyguard, but that's about it.
I love how everyone gets to talk about how awesome their termies are while mine are garbage. WS5 termies are basically unbeatable in my games unless I'm running lascannon HSS's or a leviathan. I either have to kite them, tarpit them, or just lose.
Iron Warriors Dominators, hands down.
IW really won on terminators. Dominators are melee monsters armed with free thunder hammers, and Tyrants are Tyrants.
Tyrants too. Expensive, but fun as hell. Just grab your Havoc launchers and stick them on. https://preview.redd.it/4sqk5qtnluuc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f5aa40edb101792c4ad170f2fb41ed6d4b82b5c Actually, Death Guard also can't complain, Grave Wardens and Deathshrouds (plus you can make regular terminators more fun with scythes and chem flamers) are cool too. *Lowkey* best may be *generic* IF Tartaros Terminators **WITH** Legion upgrades (so, technically they are Legion specific), since they can have 3++ shields, S10 AP1 fist upgrade, option to deep strike, and assault cannon instead of flamer. You basically can build Hammer/Board Terminators, *but better* (awesome melee, 3++, 7" movement, sweep). How that works out in point efficiency, I don't know, but seem quite cool.
>Lowkey* best may be *generic* IF Tartaros Terminators **WITH** Legion upgrades (so, technically they are Legion specific), since they can have 3++ shields, S10 AP1 fist upgrade, option to deep strike, and assault cannon instead of flamer. You basically can build Hammer/Board Terminators, *but better* (awesome melee, 3++, 7" movement, sweep). This build is too expensive IMHO and suffers from WS 4. Also the Solarite Gauntlets are kinda wasted on them, because they do not get extra attacks from them because of the shield. Standard Powerfists or Hammers work well enough and are cheaper.
Although I am absolutely pro scaratchbuilding stuff I am against going this low effort way of building Tyrants. At least Iron Warriors specific shoulder pats should be used. Just my two cents.
I agree that they could use some extra pizazz (not mine models), for example those segmented armour "loincloths" Tyrants have should be easy to make. I really like Havoc Launchers tho, made not-Whirlwind with it. https://preview.redd.it/dahihrfusuuc1.jpeg?width=1719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dcbb999a26e65bb3fa6988007ad4d16e968d2be9
Now I want to make a unit of tyrants that are just tiny tanks.
>. At least Iron Warriors specific shoulder pats should be used. I'm not that familiar with the 30k range, but are the shoulder pads in that comment pic actually different than the one in the [kit](https://www.warhammer.com/shop/Iron-Warriors-Legion-Tyrant-Siege-Terminators)? As far as I can tell it looks like the helmet and those tabard-armour things are the main differences.
I disagree. Can you use the FW models? Sure. SHOULD you use them? If you want. should you use FW shoulder pads? With the quality of the transfer sheets we have now, fuck no. I am actually a bit sad that the "special" terminators are just regular ones with added shit. I would have loved to see a modern interpretation of the cobra terminator armor or the saturnine one for the special legion terminators 🤷
Aren’t the genuine shoulder pads basically just regular ones with hazard strips inprinted?
Yeah just buy the Tortuga Bay kit at that point
Agreed
This. They have ws5, stubborn and free thunder hammers. No fancy tricks, just an excellent beatstick at a good points cost.
Honestly even the Cyclone terminators are good. Expensive as hell, but I think the Iron Fourth is in a really good place this edition
Yeah not only are they cheaper than regular Cataphractii with thunder hammers! they also get to be WS5!? I've always just assumed there to be a typo somewhere on their datasheet and paid 50 points for them.
And then Exemplary Battles Volume one came along and you saw the light
Rout Varagyr. Utterly scary af and get +1 ws on the charge, coupled with all kinds of strength boosting shenanigans from various sources. Run them hammer & claw, great frost blades in as many places as you can, and watch them blender anything in their way.
I do think Varagyr are one of the killiest melee options. And I love them. But I will say in point cost, I think it kills them. You likely want some Character support, mainly a Speaker of the Dead for tne FnP and Hatred, I would say. And being a primarly melee threat they need a Spartan... and with all that said tbey end up stupid expensive to use. They end up at 950 for 10, thr character and the transport, before further upgrades. Excelent melee blenders, but too expensive for me to be considered the best.
No argument there. But your opponent will be so friggin scared of them, you can bait them into a ton of other mistakes just worrying about them lol
Under appreciated set up autocannons and a rune priest sat in with them, getting that shrouded save on top of cattii is pretty hideous. Just a big old brick of hard to move and no one really wants to get with in charge range.
I know they are a pale shadow of their 1.0 insanity, but I will always love Sekhmet. Psychic terminators are just amazing. As far as how I use them, I like 5 with Achaean Force Axes and combi-Volkite. Pavoni for the extra movement if it’s needed, Biomancy on the Inceptor to buff the unit and punch tanks to death. Deep strike if I’m running Guard of the Crimson King, land raider or Spartan if I’m not.
My best use for Sekhmet was running 3 units of them, deploying with Heralds and a Praetor, all running Pyromancy. 18, 5" blasts that only scatter D6", can be targeted at different units to the ones you charge, it's not technically a shooting attack so it doesn't proc reactions, doing S6 hits to everyone under them and the same again when those units move for any reason. It's an amount of anti-infantry firepower that very few things can stand against in my experience
Is the risk of perils really worth it though for something any marine is going to get a save against? Sending Sekhmet against Av3 is a waste and even if you get a wound on a terminator it’s not doubling them out Sekhmet are overcosted (before discipline) in v2, Fire Drakes are cheaper and have S8, 3++ and re-roll 1’s in melee! #CurseYouAndyHoare I’d argue (as a Thousand Sons player) that Combustion does trigger reactions if it lands on a unit, it satisfies all the criteria of a shooting attack, the wording is just to prevent the use of powers in addition to conventional ranged weapons
Each to their own, but in my experience it absolutely is worth it. Yeah it's not doubling them out, but it's like firing Volkite culverins at a unit; you don't do it for the quality of the individual shot, you do it for the quantity. 5" blast covers quite a few models, and since you don't have to place it on a model's head, the usual spacing trick is no where near as effective. But also, because blasts tend to be smaller from most guns in 2.0, I've found people rarely bother. So you end up hitting 5-12 models (anecdotally, based on my averages) with each template, wounding on 2s (S6). So 15-36 wounds per psyker casting the power, and then you take 3-6 psykers all doing that, and it's the attrition that gets you. Plus, after you've hit them with a million wounds, if they want to move that unit at all, they take them all again because the template persists and does the same wounds whenever you move through it. I've reduced a 10 man Cataphractii unit down to 2 men and the Praetor with them doing that, which made them easy prey for the Sekhmet to mop up. It's gross, and I would encourage you to try it some time! As for reaction, it definitely doesn't trigger. The wording for reactions is: > Once the Active player has resolved all To Hit and To Wound rolls, and Armour Saves are made, but before any Damage Mitigation rolls are made or casualties removed, the Reactive player may choose to expend one of their Reactions for that Phase to have *the unit targeted by the Shooting Attack* either Return Fire or Evade. And the wording for Pyromantic Combustion is: > Instead of making a Shooting Attack, a Psyker with this Psychic Power can place a Large Blast (5") marker anywhere on the battlefield that is entirely within 18" and within line of sight of the Psyker. Once placed, scatter the marker D6" to determine its final position and then leave it in place until the beginning of the controlling player’s next Shooting phase. You're just placing dangerous terrain on the battlefield. It specifically doesn't target a unit, it targets the battlefield itself, and therefore no units are eligible to make a reaction against it. Similarly, although it uses a blast marker to measure the radii of impact, it's not a Blast weapon. It's not a weapon at all, it's terrain. Therefore things like Cataphractii getting re-rolls against blast weapons from Heavy-sub-type doesn't work either. It probably should both trigger reactions and proc Heavy re-rolls, but Rule as Written it does neither.
I think the Deliverers are pretty great and no I am not biased in any way.
Agreed! Deliverers are one of the most underrated Terminator units in the game. Battle-Hardened (1), Deep-Strike, WS5 and access to the RG unique Lightning Claws makes them insanely strong especially if you consider how cheap they are. They have an easy time crippeling other terminator units with their Lightning Claws as they have 5 attacks per guy (if charging), hit before all AP2 weapons, have Shred and Rending (5+) and cant be one-shotted by any S8 weapons due to their Battle-Hardened.
I don't think I've ever met anyone who's thinks Deliverers are underrated since they got their HH2 rules. Hell, when Fulmentarus got nerfed I think pretty much every other alpha legion player confessed that they always had thought Deliverers were really cool.
Might be because Raven Guard is overall one of the less popular Legions due to a lack of unique character models and their rather boring colourscheme, but I barely see them played in my region. In fact I see more AL Deliverers than RG....
As a Raven Guard player here, yeah not many people play Raven guard, and quite a few who do play RG don’t want terminators in their army. Personally I never fight without at least 5 Deliverers chilling in deepstrike with my Praetor. In decapitation strike they even get 5+ shrouded upon deepstrike and thus your opponent suffers.
I run my deliverers almost evey game. They have done work for me consistently and are absolutely great. Also the color scheme on the official ones are red which give a little more variety for painting.
Nobody thinks Deliverers are underrated, people just don't play RG as much.
Inner circle knights are pretty great, as per all the DA uniques. A free custom buff (usually reaper of hosts), a WS6 sgt, meaningful shooting power, free terranic greatswords and the deathwing +1 to hit buff makes them very dangerous to near anything. They can reliably stack saves on primarchs, if they live that long. But they are let down hard by the inability to sweep, so not S tier. The PDF broken claw knights swap their swords for +3 str, Brutal 2 versions. Those I think are actually overpowered.
They may not be exciting, but Learnean Terminators getting line has won me games.
It's such a contradictory unit, they have a buff they lose if a character joins them so they can't deathball, only WS4, expensive, conversion beamer is fantastic but has great antisynergy with their volkite chargers... I guess their job really is just to tank and sit on an objective. If they could split fire they would be a lot nicer.
>It's such a contradictory unit, they have a buff they lose if a character joins them so they can't deathball Lots of people seem to think this, but it's not true! Hydran Exemplars is decided *before* deployment, and Independent Characters aren't assigned to units until you deploy them. This means that by the time you attach the character to them, they have already picked thier target astartes, and all models in the unit with the rule get the +1 to hit for the rest of the game. Buddy them up with ICs to your heart's content! I like a primus medicae for FNP and a re-roll on your IWND. Use them as a backfield anchor with. C-beam cannon, bully objective sitters with Volkite followed up by a bunch of power-axes hitting on 3s, even occasionally punk a character with the champion having 3W and 5 attacks on the charge with a chainfist and dagger.
The conversion beamer is mostly for blinding over watch or returning fire. power daggers give the harrower 5 chain fist attacks on a charge. They are a Swiss army knife.
With 72inch blinding shots right? One of the best backline objective holders
The 72" blind is nice, but what's come in clutch more than once (for my opponent unfortunately) is that it gives them blind on overwatch so you can find your WS5 unit suddenly unable to hit the WS4 guys they thought they were going to chew up.
Maybe not the strongest, but I still love them: Gorgon Terminators. The blind on making saves does not always work out but when it does? They rip through dreadnoughts. I always run them with fists of both flavours and man, when they survive and get the blind off, it’s open season. Chuck a Librarian with biomancy in there to buff their survivability and a similarly equipped chaplain and suddenly that deathball gets even more spicy. Expensive as all hell, but man I love them. Tarpitting units in blobs of them with T5 and a FNP built into the armour is just so great.
Firedrakes by far, 3+ invuln and thunder hammers, and reroll 1's to hit. They have never failed me
Same, my Firedrakes have beat the everliving shit out of a lot of things. I've only ever lost three since I started running them, two to a Contemptor blowing up, and one into an Iron Warriors warlord. They've become an auto-include for me.
I feel like deliverers are gross, but they do cost a ton of points. Battle hardened cataphractii that fight at ws5 initiative with better lightning claws AND have deep strike? My god
You also can only take a single unit of them thankfully.
Single unit is all you need, honestly.
Yeah, hence the thankfully. Definitely should exist for some other units I can think of * cough invictus suzerans cough *
Deliverers have almost won me games by themselves. Deep striking, WS5, attack at initiative, battle hardened (if loyal), 25 attacks with Ravens Talons... They're also in cataphractii so 4++ and 2+. Tough bar stewards but pricey. Think 5 with ravens talons is around 275pts
My first thought was Varagyr. However, they have been well spoken for (as they are very good). And while they are not broken I will say I am quite happy with Justaerin. I run them in Black Reaving with A3 base (A5 and S+1 on charge) and not being doubled out by S8, they are a decent anti-terminator unit that allows my reavers to focus on squishier targets.
out of curiosity, any recommendations on how to run reavers? I’m new to the game and don’t want something sweaty, but effective enough to give me a decent chance of winning.
I play in a very casual/friendly and non-meta enviornment so what I experience might not relate. But I usually run a 10 man with apothecary in a land raider (3 fist, 3 tabar and 4 chain axe). Push a flank and charge out of LR with a speeder/jetbikes to proc rage (black reaving). They can pretty reliably beat other non legion specific terminator infantry.
I'm fairly happy with Varagyr having used them a fair bit, the WS increase on the charge helps them absolutely demolish other terminators and the reaping blow on the frost weapons and hammer of wrath are decent for clearing smaller chaff units, though a big blob of chaff will still moor them up. They also get access to some good weapons for a decent price and can combine Frost weapons and Thunder Hammers or similar to produce a good versatile unit. Their worst option is probably the stock one the models come with but you can do some awful stuff with a unit built from the ground up.
~~invictarus suzerains~~
My Justaerin always seem to win melee against any other terminator unit. That -1 strength makes a huge difference against instant death. Chuck a primus medicae in there for a 2+ 4++ 5+++ against power fists and thunder hammers and you're laughing
DW termies look absurd. I personally think with the FAQ and Tabars (and bias from playing them) that Justaerin are definitely up there...way up there... in terms of lethality and winning the death star race. Every single one has the near stat line of a centurion
Is there a new FAQ or are you talking about the one that says that the SoH Legion rule also works on disordered charges?
Yes. Incredibly important
What I really like about Justaerin is the BS5 combi-meltas for only 5 extra points per model. You will always take more points from the opponent than what you paid for those. I don’t think they are the best out there due to how expensive they are overall, but certainly one of the most versatile. On another note, put a moritat in that squad and the Justaerin are suddenly instant deathing toughness 4 opponents on the charge with those tabars. Pretty expensive centurion to take though, so hammers are still probably better.
I usually take a chaplain with them and/or Delegatus for line for one reason- the only thing that will be a challenge for them in HtH is something with WS6 (or something that modifiers their chance to hit) The thing is, they are expensive sure... But with black reaving enabled they have 5 ws 5 thunder hammer attacks on the charge which is cheap comparatively for that amount of damage. I can't argue that IW dominators aren't amazing value, but 4 Justaerin would mop the floor with them on a good charge.
Yes, although you wont have as many wounds to tank with. It’s a bit of a trade off, but not a bad one tho. I usually run them with a delegatus too, sometimes a praetor, and use them as a deep strike hit squad, not a death star due to how expensive they are. Even 5 combi meltas usually wipe out 2-3 cataphracti before combat or open up a land raider if necessary. I’ve yet to make any reavers so haven’t run Black Reaving yet.
I like your idea with 5 melta- a drop in the bucket for how much they cost. I will definitely put that on the list of things to obtain. I'd say "go big or go home" with them due to intercept, and I have first hand experience seeing how even a few surviving Justaerin can mop up a board. Also, I'm very underwhelmed by Reavers for their points cost even though I think they are deadly, and that's with Panoptica power weapon points adjustments too: on foot I think they are too slow and I'm not big into transports personally, and with jump packs they are absurdly expensive: for that points investment I'd rather have a jump command squad although HQ slots and the delegatus tax is high the ppm difference is silly for a 2+ save. I will say that counter attack is a great ability but reavers are hit or miss vs terminator armor (power fists ain't cheap) which is why I think they are in a weird spot with SoH as a whole but especially black reaving: you need power units flanked by initial chargers. Not saying I won't take reavers from time to time just that the added points cost for precision shots and precision strikes isn't worth it Last edit: a decked out reaver squad points wise...I'd rather take more terminators and risk a disordered deep strike (sadly another Panoptica add on to buy deep strike) or even a decked out jump pack squad for that matter I do like your idea of a moritat though!
Yeah I usually try to place them out LoS from lascannon squads and intercept the opponents heavy melee hitters. Those meltas have come very handy in that. Tbh, I don’t think the reavers are any good either. Too squishy and actually not a very good investment considering that point-for-point they are probably worse than despoilers or assault squads in melee output, except for the precision strikes. I’ve entertained the idea of taking 20 of them in a squad with 10 powerfists, and make a sort of death star out of them to see if it’s too strong or too weak. Just 10 of them feel like downgraded vets.
My only concern with the moritat is you need your furious charge bonus to make tabars lethal to most troops
That is true, and they also lose the bonuses after the first round, and might cause your unit to crumble as a result, which can be funny. They are still a solid secondary option if you don’t want to spend too much on hammers. A mid-tier legion power weapon I’d say.
The idea is that you don't ever lose the first round though so it's still not a bad idea. That and gambling on shooting a bunch of pistols into something. It'd definitely be fun to try
Oh damn you can't charge after a chain fire so that's a big problem as you can't leave the unit during DSA either
Moritats cannot have Terminator armour, ergo cannot join Justaerin.
I can’t find that rule for some reason, could you point me to the page where it is?
You know what, I can't find it either, ignore me!
Moritat is only an option on the artificer armored centurion. Neither Terminator entry has the option.
Yes, but there is nothing I can see stopping a Moritat from joining the Justaerin.
The special rule Bitter Duty prevents this. The moritat has it so he cannot join the Justaerin as they don't have the rule.
Bitter Duty does not prevent a Character with that rule from joining a unit, it prevents a unit with that rule from being joined by a Character that *does not* have it. A Moritat can join an Assault Squad, because he has Bitter Duty but the unit does not. A Champion cannot join Destroyers because the unit has Bitter Duty and the Champion does not.
You are correct. I even checked and not only does the FAQ explicitly say yes to joining other units but you can take retinues as well. Cool
It's not that they can't join due to lack of terminator armor but rather they have the special rule *Bitter Duty*. Models with bitter duty can only join units that share the same rule. You can check pages 113 & 117 for details.
I just honestly with legion generic terminators had veteran WS and/or BS, or the option to upgrade. Legion elite termies are generally too good in comparison.
Inner Circle Knights Cenobium are my vote, which may be biased due to me being a I legion fanboy but they're also really good. That 5+ rending (not breaching, so they can also smash up vehicles by going to S12-15) combined with a 5+ instakill meaning both proc at the same time lets them utterly mulch pretty much anything elite, especially against thunder hammers since they strike at initiative. On top of that they get a nice extra benefit to boot - whether it's rerolling hits against other elite terminators to push those AP5 instakills, or +1 attack and a base S6 AP3 to stop weaker enemies trying to tarpit them, or even if your opponents like corrupting their troops then why not just reroll all failed hits and wounds? Oh and adamantium will 3+ on top of *that* because why not at this point. Combine that with a breaching flamer on every model and they can put down some serious hurt on overwatch, and that AP4 template clears out entire squads of anything less than a marine. Possibly the only thing against them is that they're one of the more expensive legion terminators, at 55/50 points each, but their rules more than make up for it in my experience. Finally, and most importantly, they look really good.
DA Knights Cenobium are preposterously good and also beautiful
Deliverers are insane value if you want tankiness Also suzerain are basically better terminators.
Son of the Nighthaunter here. From the moment I understood the weakness of my [legion terminators], it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of [Iron Warriors Dominators]
There has gotta be a use for either of the 2 NL term units…
Contekar are a good bully unit. But the moment they have to fight other legion terminators they kinda get wrecked badly. Atramentar are utter pile of burning garbage.
Which is so disappointing because the Atramentar were supposed to be some of the only nightlords that were up there with any legions elite in a straight up fight.
Well Contekar get bonus points for being the best looking terminator models
You can't beat the reliability of Crimson Paladins for Blood Angels. WS5 Cataphractii with -1 to wound shields and a 5+ Feel no Pain that can go to a 4+ when outnumbered 2-1 in combat. Plus, they're Leadership 10 Stubborn and can be Line
They only gain the 5+ FnP if outnumbered, and being Bulky (2) makes them count as 2 models each, so a minimum squad of 3 Paladins would need to fight a 7-man squad to get it. If they removed that caveat it would be better. Maybe start with a flat 6+ FnP too? Either that, or if their shields also had a rule that reduced incoming S by 1 for the purposes of calculating Instant Death would go some way to making them more worthwhile.
Nah it's worth it to make Power Fists, Dreadnoughts, and Thunderhammers wound on a 3+. It's saved me soo many games that that -1 to wound roll is really powerful and better than -1 strength
That Thunder Hammer/ Power Fist May wound on a 3+ instead of a 2+, but at Str 8 it causes instant death ignoring your FNP & 2 wounds per model. I would much prefer to be wounded on a 2+ and get my FNP and get to use both of my wounds (makes them much more durable).
Still got the 4+ Invul from the Cataphractii. Durability isn't an issue
Dominators for the smash value and Iron Hand Morlocks, being able to not be doubled out, become line when as a retinue and be a HQ. Is incredible. It’s a blob that can’t just be moved easily
Basically copying my sentiment from the other thread, because I’m biased: Sehkmet are expensive, but you get a cataphractii librarian with a WS5 terminator retinue and a bonus mini psychic power. That’s kind of amazing.
IW Dominators by a long way.
I'm biased admittedly. I run Inner Circle Knights Cenobium. You also have the broken claws version with different weapons which can be nuts. I just run the wrist flamers and all terranic greatswords and Deathwing with slayer of kings. Basically you get +1 to hit at WS 5 with a ws 6 sergeant. Rerolls 1s to hit vs WS 5+ with slayer of kings. You are ap3 rending and murderous strike 5+ at initiative and +2 strength. Breaching template S4 plasma flamers are ok. Cool looks. Cataphractii levels of protection. All can challenge. I think they are all character for wound allocation also. I think they are really neat.
Deathshroud are amazing. WS5, Tartaros armour isn't ideal but does help keep up Mortarion if he's in there. Battle Hardened 1 with 3 wounds. So s10 weapons instant kill meaning each guy can tank 3 lascannon shots. Add in the scythes and alchem flamers. They're not great vs duelists but can still chosen warrior and cut down squads for your commanders or as a solo unit. Just they're expensive but still great bodyguards in my opinion and as a unit. Grave Wardens also work great. They get so many shots to fire from toxin grenades and get a special flamer to fire. Along with making any unit that charges them disordered. They work really well for Dreadnought hunting with poison 3+ weapons and tonnes of shots. I don't even run them well but I'm frequently impressed at how well they do given that.
Imagine getting legion terminators instead of atrocious marine/demons
Gal Vorbak aren't good? (I've never played against them).
T5 3w 3+ AP3 - not comparable at all, but they cost 55pts...
Ah, OK. On the bright side, they are pretty much the best looking models in the game. Or any game.
You're not wrong, but they are at the same time impossible to paint :D
I think they are very good. They suffer immensly against incoming fire tho
I would 1000 times prefer Gal Vorbak over red butchers lmfao
Knights Cenobium are fucking NASTY
I rate the plague warden terminators as probably the coolest looking version of cataphractii. Just a shame they are nowhere near as good in HHv2. Still very fun to play regardless though
Just starting out with emperors children.. how do Phoenix terminators do?
Yeah... there's a reason you don't see them mentioned here. They can do alright at being defensive bodyguards with their stance, but tartaros 5++ really holds them back. They're not very good against other terminators offensively so it's basically not a great picture. For EC, catas with fists and shriekers are better than phoenix or, if you're constantly fighting against legion-specific termies seen in this post, indomitus with hammers and shields.
I dunno My mate always runs a block of ten and they consistently do terrible things to my dominator termies I win out in the end but I fully accept that my blob of 10 is janky and too good for its points
I mean I'm not saying they suck or are bottom tier. They just don't belong in a conversation about "the best per point per use". Do you think the catas or indoms would perform worse against your dominators?
Yeah non Legion terminators bounce off them, sonic shriekers and spears do way more than people seem to realise
Would still be running the shriekers on the generic termies, so it's like trading 1WS (only offensively) for much, much better weapons that really maximize our +1 initiative trait. 1 group of Phoenix are decent for bodyguard, but that's about it.
I love how everyone gets to talk about how awesome their termies are while mine are garbage. WS5 termies are basically unbeatable in my games unless I'm running lascannon HSS's or a leviathan. I either have to kite them, tarpit them, or just lose.
Which legion?
Contekar?