If it’s in a city it’s usually so they can keep homeless people out of the park and trespass them. I live in the suburbs and our parks don’t close. We hang out all the time overnight and even drink some beers sometimes and the cops don’t care
Homeless people chilling in a park having a beer, trying to sleep somewhere comfy? Jail.
Suburbia kids getting drunk, wanting to lay down somewhere comfy? All fine.
The US hate poor people.
I agree with you, it’s really stupid most times, BUT.
I live downtown in a major urban city across the street from a city park, and 3 blocks from an over night shelter. I would say in general that if someone stops for the night and crashes on a bench or sleeps in the gazebo one night, no one really cares too much. As long as they are being respectful of other people using the park and not causing trouble. It’s not uncommon to see someone in the morning while I’m walking my dog in the park.
It’s when Methy McGee shows up cracked out of their mind screaming at not existent entities and tipping over trash cans and trying to destroy shit that it gets old. Also, when those same nutters try to find opportunities to let themselves in to the houses/garages/sheds around the park that cops have to intervene. Also, If anyone tries to set up a long term camp and start shitting in the park, then they usually get rousted. My wife has gotten followed down the street while some goofball is shouting obscenities at her, and all she was doing was walking the dog in the afternoon.
Edit: Sorry, to your point: Chilling and having a beer. Super cool, totally get it!
The answer to the criminal activity you described is not closing the parks and thereby punishing the entire citizenry. The answer is to arrest the criminal. And if we want to really get nutso maybe we could actually try to HELP the criminal improve his/her situation. Would that have a price tag? Sure. But so does hiring security to chase people out of parks all night.
Oh dude, yeah, I 1000% agree. They really only use that “law” for a catch all to have the authority to stop people from acting the fool. Honestly, the only time I’ve seen them really intervene, the person was having a full on mental episode and they had EMS and everything. Most times it’s kinda “hey, you okay? All right, how about you go be crazy somewhere else”.
I actually have spoken to our representatives at city council meetings and spoke to them that I thought it was a bad idea that the only option at night was the police department, which sucks for everyone involved. The police are not equipped at times to deal with it, and someone experiencing being unhoused doesn’t need any more trouble in life.
It is really interesting, isn’t it?
I was reading about the pilot program in Denver where they chose a number of unhoused people for a program where they gave them cash instead of benefits. I don’t remember the numbers but at the end of the program it was some high percentage that were no longer homeless and even more interesting it saved the tax payers a bunch of money.
Exactly. Read the same thing again yesterday.
It's as if poor people know what they need. But - just as with all the studies showing that a 4 day work week (with actual reduction in hours) is more productive - it feels wrong, despite evidence to the contrary, thus people oppose it...
Your parks most likely “close” in the suburbs. They’re probably not monitored or enforced, but I bet if you look at the park on Google maps there will be hours.
I actually did look on google maps and the hours say midnight to midnight. I have also asked cops that stopped by from time to time and they said they don’t close unless an event or something
It’s less about the sleeping than about the crime.
Homeless people are homeless for a reason, and that reason is usually addiction, untreated mental health issues, rampant anti-social behavioral disorders, or more usually a combination of the above, plus the grinding poverty those produce. That translates into a lot of fights, drug use, defecation/urination, public masturbation, and littering. It wrecks the parks in a hurry, makes them expensive to clean up, and makes them unusable for everyone else.
That is not to say we should just kick homeless people out of parks. It’s to say, the solution to homelessness is to give them housing and resources, not to let them sleep in parks. Letting them sleep in parks is punting - get them a bed to sleep in, with running water and a toilet, not a bench and some bushes.
If you’re going to close parks, you *have* to have shelters and clinics and all the other resources they need, in ample quantities, immediately available. If you do, then fair enough, parks are public spaces to be preserved. If not…then it’s the worst kind of fuck you, because you’re denying them the most basic of accesses AND you’re not trying to solve the problem.
Don't forget the fact that many people are living paycheck to paycheck. Rents are through the roof and one financial crisis and most of us could become homeless. Professional landlords are creating homelessness.
While true…those aren’t the people who are sleeping in parks. At least not for more than a night or two.
Those are the people who are going to shelters, and getting on the lists for public housing, and getting welfare, and getting OUT of that hole. Because it’s horrible and it sucks.
The chronically homeless are a very different population. And unfortunately a very dangerous population.
No. I work in criminal law and I see and deal with it professionally on a daily basis.
Do you realize what percent of bail courts and charges for petty drug crime, petty assaults, and petty robberies come from the homeless community?
We have an absolutely disgraceful lack of resources in place for homelessness. So the same dudes will be arrested over, and over, and over, for doing the same stupid shit because news flash: the guy with no family, no money, is severely bipolar, and has a raging crack addiction isn’t going to just straighten up and fly right because you stick him in jail for a month. He’s going to get out, and go right back and do it again. He needs housing and a doctor and a support network and he *still* might never get fully fixed, but a jail is never actually going to solve the problem.
That’s the guy that’s camping in parks for more than a night. Because he doesn’t have anywhere else to go. And when he can do it, word gets out, and pretty soon you have an encampment. So municipalities close parks.
Is it the right call? I don’t think anyone can say. It fixes one problem, and exacerbates another - right and wrong don't really enter into it. Is it a call that has cruel effects? Absolutely. Is it a situation a city alone can fix? No way in hell. Are we as a society choosing to just ignore the problem? You bet.
But don't kid yourself: making parks open all night so the homeless can sleep there isn't humane. Far
from it.
LOL. No. Definitely not a cop. I’ve been defense counsel and a prosecutor. Right now I’m on defense. It’s literally my job to help the homeless make bail and to try to help them find resources.
Did I say drug use makes you homeless? No I did not. I said there is a strong correlation between a mix of many factors. Drug use is usually the *result,* not the *cause*. Undiagnosed and/or untreated mental health issues are usually the precipitating cause, along with growing up poor. So a kid grows up in the projects, develops schizophrenia in his late teens, it’s undiagnosed so people just know he acts weird, he can’t hold a job and loses housing, then he starts doing criminal stuff to get by. And eventually someone hooks him on drugs too.
Be less confrontational. You seem very angry and simplistic. I’m sorry the world is a complex and non-linear place and the answers aren’t all easy, but…it is, and they aren’t.
You have a nice day now.
You said only addicts stay homeless not people who lost their jobs. You said most people that are homeless are addicts. So something about addiction mustake it impossible to function in society
Reading comprehension is your friend.
I said it’s a combination of factors. Can addiction alone cause homelessness? Sure, but it’s less common. Usually if someone is an addict they get help, or friends/family stage an intervention or what have you. There’s nothing wrong with being an addict - it’s just a medical condition.
I also didn’t say most people that are homeless are addicts. I said addiction is a common part of the mix. Because it is. But it’s not a fixed thing - even homeless people get clean, or relapse. So guy breaks into a Starbuck’s one time to steal stuff to sell to buy drugs, then the next time he’s just hungry. Same guy, not clean once, clean a second time, still poor and homeless and not getting the help he needs.
The issue here isn’t addiction. It isn’t homelessness. It isn’t untreated mental health disorders. It isn’t a lack of resources. It’s all of them combined, and amplifying each other, at a statistical level, and how do we best respond to that.
Man you’re trying so hard to make him sound bad and I have no idea why. All he said was that addiction is one of many factors in a person becoming homeless.
No need to take it so personally.
Nope.just think that people who say all homeless people are addicts brushes over a lot of serious issues. Like how hard it is to become unhomless. Addiction usually has nothing to do with it
You talk about cost of clean up but are ok spending millions in pushing them through the system? Gross and definitely cheaper to clean some public restrooms
First: *I* don’t talk about anything. I’m explaining the factors that the municipalities that close parks are thinking about. Not approving or disapproving.
Second: yes, I do in fact think that the richest nation in human history should spend what’s necessary to help some of society’s most vulnerable people to not live in conditions that wouldn’t be considered acceptable for an animal shelter. And if you think that’s an issue…I invite you to reflect on what your role might be in perpetuating this problem.
A jail is not better conditions. Chasing them from society nis not better conditions. But cool false high road, really sells the " we're helping them by prosecuting them" bit
Jail is not better conditions, except in very cold places where the alternative is freezing to death. In fact, jail is often worse conditions.
Chasing them from society isn’t better conditions.
I didn’t say either is. In fact, I said the opposite - I said they need more resources, and jail doesn’t help.
You’re reading to be outraged and making up straw men, not reading what I actually said. I want to HELP the homeless and/or addicted, not PUNISH them. Punishing poverty and medical issues costs a fortune and accomplishes nothing. They’re human beings. They deserve help. We
Should be implementing the Finnish model, not falling back to the 19th century.
Where exactly is the profit in arresting homeless people for sleeping in a park? If you are talking about for-profit prisons, it would never get that far. It would just cost the local municipality a bunch of money (to patrol, arrest, jail, arraign and then release them anyway).
But the person charged with being in the park after closing is never going to end up in the actual prison. MAYBE a night in the local jail, which is not going to get extra money for that.
Most local police only have a few holding cells. They would go to a county jail for 24-48 hours. Then they can pick them up numerous times. Also arrest them when they don't pay the fines. Yes they get money for everyday a person.is there. Even if it's one day
Yes. But not *all* homeless. A very problematic subset.
If you’re “my landlord is a greedy asshole” homeless, you go to a shelter. It’s hard and scary and it sucks, but there are resources. Underfunded and inadequate resources, but still enough to get you a bed and a shower. And then to get you stable enough to eventually get back on your feet. The overwhelming majority of homelessness lasts 1-2 days, and over 50% of persons who engage with the system are out within 30 days.
That’s the homeless you’re really describing, and that’s not the homeless closing parks is aimed at. They’re aimed at a problematic subset of the chronically homeless, who are too violent/problematic for normal assistance, and who gravitate to parks as a default.
If you’re violent/erratic enough/refuse to follow rules, you can get kicked out of a homeless shelter, and if you do it often enough they’ll trespass you. And let the other shelters know. So it is in fact possible to get trespassed from all the shelters in town, not because those places don’t care, but because they’re sick of staff getting assaulted, rooms getting set on fire from careless smoking, you refusing to take your schizophrenia meds and smearing all your walls with poop, etc. It’s a very different world.
And the people that wind up camping in parks are very often the people who have been kicked out of all the shelters - the most *dangerous* subset, not the most *harmless*.
Again, I’m not saying it’s ok to just ignore the homeless or that the levels of homelessness we have is acceptable - even 1 homeless person is unacceptable. I’m just saying that kicking people out of parks is a more complex issue than Reddit commonly thinks.
ah, yes, the classic "but what about the comically insane homeless people" argument. the kind who are homeless entirely of their own fault. how could I have forgotten
Ah yes, the classic "everything I know about the homeless I learned on the internet" response, plus a straw man. How expected.
Let us discuss the topic in detail, shall we?
First: let's define some terms:
- "Homeless" is a big bucket, that includes [invisible homelessness](https://www.chicagohomeless.org/hidden-homelessness-in-the-united-states/) (for example those couch-surfing, living in cars, and staying with friends), [episodic homelessness](https://artfromthestreets.org/blogs/news/the-types-of-homelessness) (for example those who lose housing whenever they breakup with a partner, and immediately move in with the next partner), [transitional homelessness](https://invisiblepeople.tv/understanding-transitional-homelessness/) (ie those who are homeless for a few days before getting hooked up with some form of housing and resources, , usually as a result of a major life crisis, for example a woman fleeing domestic abuse) and [chronic homelessness](https://endhomelessness.org/homelessness-in-america/who-experiences-homelessness/chronically-homeless/) (ie those who are literally living on the streets and in shelters long-term). In the absence of intervention each tends to feed into the next, in a downward spiral.
- in addition to those conceptual categories, there are also [HUD's legal critera](https://www.hudexchange.info/homelessness-assistance/coc-esg-virtual-binders/coc-esg-homeless-eligibility/four-categories/), which pertain more to how funding is allotted
- in a conversation like this, people are often talking about different things - when someone says "closing parks for the homeless is bad" they're usually primarily thinking of transitional homelessness, and when I say "municipalities close parks to prevent crime associated with homelessness" I'm talking primarily about chronic homelessness
Second: let's examine some facts:
- [2/3 - 3/4 of homeless persons are struggling with either active or recurrent mental health disorders](https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2024-04-17/most-homeless-americans-are-battling-mental-illness)
- [25-50% of the homeless population struggle with addiction](https://www.addictioncenter.com/addiction/homelessness/). This risk increases for some groups, for example it's more like [75% of veterans](https://www.addictionhelp.com/addiction/homelessness/)
- [Loss of housing is directly related to increased involvement in the criminal justice system](https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2023/09/11/housing-first/)
This isn't surprising. People with no money and no resources still have needs. They need to eat, they need medication, and if they can't get it legally they're not going to just up and die. Add in addiction, and you have another imperative driving potentially criminal behavior. Add in mental health issues, and you get both another imperative and you lose a barrier to social inhibition.
The result when all of that is mixed together? A [small percent of homeless individuals account for a disproportionately high percentage of crime](https://www.urban.org/features/five-charts-explain-homelessness-jail-cycle-and-how-break-it), and that crime [tends to be disproportionately violent](https://ps.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ps.201200515).
So the cities closing parks at night aren't wrong in their evaluation of the *problem*. It's real. That's not the question. The question is, what is the *solution*.
And here is where your reading to respond in outrage instead of reading to comprehend comes back to bite you in the ass. Also your reliance on a strawman.
First: I didn't blame the homeless for being homeless. Quite the opposite. I said they have behaviors that increase their vulnerability to the condition, which they do. The *fault* if there is one is society's - we don't provide nearly enough supports for mental health issues and addiction, and we're far too willing to turn a blind eye to homelessness.
Second: I didn't say we should close parks, and I didn't say we should jail the homeless. Quite the opposite. **Jailing the homeless doesn't work, and it exacerbates the underlying problems**. All I did was point out *that* cities close parks for those reasons. Which they do.
I will leave you with a pro tip: it's easier to understand what people are writing if you take your head out of your ass first.
yknow, maybe if you opened up with good points about the criminal justice system and mental health issues instead of, and I fucking quote,
> getting assaulted, rooms getting set on fire from careless smoking, you refusing to take your schizophrenia meds and smearing all your walls with poop, etc.
the vast majority of the homeless aren't smearing their walls with poop. interjecting that highly-stereotyped argument makes you sound like a fox news commentator.
I work with disabled people for my job. The disabled and homeless would generally vastly prefer that you talk about them respectfully first rather than bludgeoning your arguments over the head with poop smearing as if that's a common issue.
edit: also equating all the mental illness that homeless people suffer from to schizoprenia, like, come on dude, you're not fooling anyone. that is right out of my conservative parents' facebook posts
> the vast majority of homeless
Did I say the vast majority of homeless do that? No I did not. I in fact said, it’s a small but active percentage.
So nice straw man. Again.
So the state can add a trespassing charge if a homeless person is looking for a quiet place to sleep. Also to add a way for indigenous people to be persecuted for being on their own land.
I don’t understand how closing open air parks at night would stop that…. But FYI, not all homeless are drug addicts and not all drug addicts are homeless.
It's not about closing it, it's about having that law in place so that if people do go in late night to sleep, do drugs, fuck, etc. you don't need to catch them in the act to kick them out.
I totally agree! How didn’t I see it before???
Writing me a ticket for trespassing because I cut through a park at 3am is really going to clean up that drug problem!
Nah, the Chicago kind.
Justin Fields used to get to the park before dawn so he could get on the teeter totter and wait for the first person to show up so they could play together.
He'd wait hours some days.
It's eerily quiet at 2am as well.
I'm a night owl and will frequently go for walks at all hours of the night. It's hard to explain to people just how quiet if they've never experienced it. It's even better after a fresh snowfall of like 1". Like a whole world muffler.
being on a swing at 2am while the only lights are the ones on the street is actually very relaxing
add a fresh snow fall to that it becomes even better.
Historically? Pretending work took longer than it really did. If I'm just gonna just be on my phone or something, I don't need a marital dispute for a personal soundtrack. Plus, nature is dope at night.
You probably will just be told to leave by a ranger with a flashlight if you are there after hours. As long as you are not drinking or doing other illegal shit.
Yeah, I've had it happen to me when I'd drive into a park for Pokémon Go reasons, sometimes cops are there and go "oh uh the park is closed" and I'd be like "ok thanks for letting me know" and leave, acting like I wasn't already planning on doing that
if you go to an inner city park at night, you will meet the local gang members, and they will help you understand why the curfew is a good idea. If you go to a park in the farm areas at night, you will see lonely farmers hooking up for gay encounters in their pickup trucks, and believe me, no one wants to see that
It’s so stupid and naive.
Why are government office buildings locked after business hours? I should be able to roam around in them all night long and sleep in the lobby. It’s a public building!
Exactly the same! Lots of sensitive paperwork and information stored at my local park. If you check under the monkeybars, sometimes you'll find someone's sealed legal records, or uncensored social security numbers on paperwork (associated name included). Idk why tho, I guess beaurocracy is weird like that sometimes.
In my experience, it’s just the facilities that close at night. I’ve been able to drive in/out of state/national parks at night, sometimes even avoiding paying the entrance fee due to the kiosk being closed (I’ve always seen the gate open at night despite close - they can’t lock people in there; emergencies happen).
I guess if they were vigilant enough, they could surveil the entrance and send cops to follow night time visitors. But as others have pointed out, it seems they selectively do so for homeless people and criminals doing drugs, graffitiing, or destroying nature.
See two people literally trying to push someone off a platform and into oncoming traffic?
I gotta argue with 911 that this is an actual emergency that requires a cop.
But God forbid I’m still in the park one minute before closing. The cops are acting as if they are being assaulted and might need backup.
I might just be walking to my car, but somehow that constitutes a dangerous situation.
I‘m told by others they just act this way because I look young, and they don’t want teens hanging out.
As if this is a good rationale. As if I should be okay with kids being treated this way.
I've had numerous "violations" that I needed to handle in a court of law all related to being in or near a park that had no fence or walls of any kind. Just not allowed to use the bench. Not allowed to be there. This post is a bit triggering actually because of all the hassle I've had in my life due to so-called "park after dark" violations 🫣
I haven’t been ticketed and am actually out of the park by the time every time, but I’ve been harassed as I’m leaving because the closing time was approaching.
Actually, they all try to act as if the curfew has already passed until I inform them I’m capable of reading a watch.
10pm is fine and you should be allowed to be there, but after midnight everyone knows who’s using a park and it’s not children and families.
It’s people going there to drink, do drugs, sell drugs, fuck, or sleep. So unless you like used condoms, needles, roaches, homeless people sleeping on benches, and a whole bunch of trash then you don’t want late night park goers.
Probably because some uptight politician thought that The Gays would infiltrate the park and spread their gayness to the community. Also the homelesss.
YEA! I wanna run in the park between dusk and dawn and be murdered EXACTLY like the 70’s!
YEA! Leave it open 24/7! Super safe! Its ONLY about sticking it to the homeless - not about the classic damsel jogging at 1AM who doesnt understand why she could have possibly been targeted!
/s
What is there to enjoy in the park after dark? If its only to keep homeless people from sleeping there…any animals? Want a rabid person wandering around? Rampant drug use and trafficking
Signed - someones whose uncle was a former park ranger and advocated to close it for safety against bears, racoons, and people to be in shelters instead of out in the streets
They have closing times so that cops can come by and “gently” escort you out or arrest you for trespassing because the park closed at 7:00 and it’s now 7:01
More important observation; This post actually got 3.2 Million views.
How many were human?
If it’s in a city it’s usually so they can keep homeless people out of the park and trespass them. I live in the suburbs and our parks don’t close. We hang out all the time overnight and even drink some beers sometimes and the cops don’t care
Homeless people chilling in a park having a beer, trying to sleep somewhere comfy? Jail. Suburbia kids getting drunk, wanting to lay down somewhere comfy? All fine. The US hate poor people.
Basically yeah
I agree with you, it’s really stupid most times, BUT. I live downtown in a major urban city across the street from a city park, and 3 blocks from an over night shelter. I would say in general that if someone stops for the night and crashes on a bench or sleeps in the gazebo one night, no one really cares too much. As long as they are being respectful of other people using the park and not causing trouble. It’s not uncommon to see someone in the morning while I’m walking my dog in the park. It’s when Methy McGee shows up cracked out of their mind screaming at not existent entities and tipping over trash cans and trying to destroy shit that it gets old. Also, when those same nutters try to find opportunities to let themselves in to the houses/garages/sheds around the park that cops have to intervene. Also, If anyone tries to set up a long term camp and start shitting in the park, then they usually get rousted. My wife has gotten followed down the street while some goofball is shouting obscenities at her, and all she was doing was walking the dog in the afternoon. Edit: Sorry, to your point: Chilling and having a beer. Super cool, totally get it!
The answer to the criminal activity you described is not closing the parks and thereby punishing the entire citizenry. The answer is to arrest the criminal. And if we want to really get nutso maybe we could actually try to HELP the criminal improve his/her situation. Would that have a price tag? Sure. But so does hiring security to chase people out of parks all night.
Oh dude, yeah, I 1000% agree. They really only use that “law” for a catch all to have the authority to stop people from acting the fool. Honestly, the only time I’ve seen them really intervene, the person was having a full on mental episode and they had EMS and everything. Most times it’s kinda “hey, you okay? All right, how about you go be crazy somewhere else”. I actually have spoken to our representatives at city council meetings and spoke to them that I thought it was a bad idea that the only option at night was the police department, which sucks for everyone involved. The police are not equipped at times to deal with it, and someone experiencing being unhoused doesn’t need any more trouble in life.
An issue where some governmental housing, cash payments and a slightly different approach to homelessness would solve it all.
It is really interesting, isn’t it? I was reading about the pilot program in Denver where they chose a number of unhoused people for a program where they gave them cash instead of benefits. I don’t remember the numbers but at the end of the program it was some high percentage that were no longer homeless and even more interesting it saved the tax payers a bunch of money.
Exactly. Read the same thing again yesterday. It's as if poor people know what they need. But - just as with all the studies showing that a 4 day work week (with actual reduction in hours) is more productive - it feels wrong, despite evidence to the contrary, thus people oppose it...
Being caught wasted in a park, underage, after it closes will definitely get you a consumption charge and a night in juvie.
Yeah wtf type of childhood did they have? I got the shit tackled out of me by a cop when I was 15 over this.
In my city it’s mostly to keep teenagers from fucking on the swingset
Your parks most likely “close” in the suburbs. They’re probably not monitored or enforced, but I bet if you look at the park on Google maps there will be hours.
I actually did look on google maps and the hours say midnight to midnight. I have also asked cops that stopped by from time to time and they said they don’t close unless an event or something
It's to arrest homeless people that sleep there. The for profit system isn't gonna fund itself. Thought everyone knew this, or is it just poor people
It’s less about the sleeping than about the crime. Homeless people are homeless for a reason, and that reason is usually addiction, untreated mental health issues, rampant anti-social behavioral disorders, or more usually a combination of the above, plus the grinding poverty those produce. That translates into a lot of fights, drug use, defecation/urination, public masturbation, and littering. It wrecks the parks in a hurry, makes them expensive to clean up, and makes them unusable for everyone else. That is not to say we should just kick homeless people out of parks. It’s to say, the solution to homelessness is to give them housing and resources, not to let them sleep in parks. Letting them sleep in parks is punting - get them a bed to sleep in, with running water and a toilet, not a bench and some bushes. If you’re going to close parks, you *have* to have shelters and clinics and all the other resources they need, in ample quantities, immediately available. If you do, then fair enough, parks are public spaces to be preserved. If not…then it’s the worst kind of fuck you, because you’re denying them the most basic of accesses AND you’re not trying to solve the problem.
Don't forget the fact that many people are living paycheck to paycheck. Rents are through the roof and one financial crisis and most of us could become homeless. Professional landlords are creating homelessness.
While true…those aren’t the people who are sleeping in parks. At least not for more than a night or two. Those are the people who are going to shelters, and getting on the lists for public housing, and getting welfare, and getting OUT of that hole. Because it’s horrible and it sucks. The chronically homeless are a very different population. And unfortunately a very dangerous population.
Really? And you just walk around believing this shit?
No. I work in criminal law and I see and deal with it professionally on a daily basis. Do you realize what percent of bail courts and charges for petty drug crime, petty assaults, and petty robberies come from the homeless community? We have an absolutely disgraceful lack of resources in place for homelessness. So the same dudes will be arrested over, and over, and over, for doing the same stupid shit because news flash: the guy with no family, no money, is severely bipolar, and has a raging crack addiction isn’t going to just straighten up and fly right because you stick him in jail for a month. He’s going to get out, and go right back and do it again. He needs housing and a doctor and a support network and he *still* might never get fully fixed, but a jail is never actually going to solve the problem. That’s the guy that’s camping in parks for more than a night. Because he doesn’t have anywhere else to go. And when he can do it, word gets out, and pretty soon you have an encampment. So municipalities close parks. Is it the right call? I don’t think anyone can say. It fixes one problem, and exacerbates another - right and wrong don't really enter into it. Is it a call that has cruel effects? Absolutely. Is it a situation a city alone can fix? No way in hell. Are we as a society choosing to just ignore the problem? You bet. But don't kid yourself: making parks open all night so the homeless can sleep there isn't humane. Far from it.
So a cop. I know a few cops all addicted to coke. The cool kind of addict that punishes those who do the same shit. Bet your a cool cop like that
LOL. No. Definitely not a cop. I’ve been defense counsel and a prosecutor. Right now I’m on defense. It’s literally my job to help the homeless make bail and to try to help them find resources.
So a lawyer, thank God there is no lawyers addicted to drugs. They would be all homeless. Right, cuz that's how it works.
Did I say drug use makes you homeless? No I did not. I said there is a strong correlation between a mix of many factors. Drug use is usually the *result,* not the *cause*. Undiagnosed and/or untreated mental health issues are usually the precipitating cause, along with growing up poor. So a kid grows up in the projects, develops schizophrenia in his late teens, it’s undiagnosed so people just know he acts weird, he can’t hold a job and loses housing, then he starts doing criminal stuff to get by. And eventually someone hooks him on drugs too. Be less confrontational. You seem very angry and simplistic. I’m sorry the world is a complex and non-linear place and the answers aren’t all easy, but…it is, and they aren’t. You have a nice day now.
You said only addicts stay homeless not people who lost their jobs. You said most people that are homeless are addicts. So something about addiction mustake it impossible to function in society
Reading comprehension is your friend. I said it’s a combination of factors. Can addiction alone cause homelessness? Sure, but it’s less common. Usually if someone is an addict they get help, or friends/family stage an intervention or what have you. There’s nothing wrong with being an addict - it’s just a medical condition. I also didn’t say most people that are homeless are addicts. I said addiction is a common part of the mix. Because it is. But it’s not a fixed thing - even homeless people get clean, or relapse. So guy breaks into a Starbuck’s one time to steal stuff to sell to buy drugs, then the next time he’s just hungry. Same guy, not clean once, clean a second time, still poor and homeless and not getting the help he needs. The issue here isn’t addiction. It isn’t homelessness. It isn’t untreated mental health disorders. It isn’t a lack of resources. It’s all of them combined, and amplifying each other, at a statistical level, and how do we best respond to that.
Man you’re trying so hard to make him sound bad and I have no idea why. All he said was that addiction is one of many factors in a person becoming homeless. No need to take it so personally.
You're a argumentative arrogant punk lmao
Nope.just think that people who say all homeless people are addicts brushes over a lot of serious issues. Like how hard it is to become unhomless. Addiction usually has nothing to do with it
You talk about cost of clean up but are ok spending millions in pushing them through the system? Gross and definitely cheaper to clean some public restrooms
First: *I* don’t talk about anything. I’m explaining the factors that the municipalities that close parks are thinking about. Not approving or disapproving. Second: yes, I do in fact think that the richest nation in human history should spend what’s necessary to help some of society’s most vulnerable people to not live in conditions that wouldn’t be considered acceptable for an animal shelter. And if you think that’s an issue…I invite you to reflect on what your role might be in perpetuating this problem.
A jail is not better conditions. Chasing them from society nis not better conditions. But cool false high road, really sells the " we're helping them by prosecuting them" bit
Jail is not better conditions, except in very cold places where the alternative is freezing to death. In fact, jail is often worse conditions. Chasing them from society isn’t better conditions. I didn’t say either is. In fact, I said the opposite - I said they need more resources, and jail doesn’t help. You’re reading to be outraged and making up straw men, not reading what I actually said. I want to HELP the homeless and/or addicted, not PUNISH them. Punishing poverty and medical issues costs a fortune and accomplishes nothing. They’re human beings. They deserve help. We Should be implementing the Finnish model, not falling back to the 19th century.
Are you just willfully ignoring what this person is trying to tell you? This is not at all what they’re saying.
Where exactly is the profit in arresting homeless people for sleeping in a park? If you are talking about for-profit prisons, it would never get that far. It would just cost the local municipality a bunch of money (to patrol, arrest, jail, arraign and then release them anyway).
Jails get money from the state per inmate per day. That's where 90% of their money comes from
But the person charged with being in the park after closing is never going to end up in the actual prison. MAYBE a night in the local jail, which is not going to get extra money for that.
Most local police only have a few holding cells. They would go to a county jail for 24-48 hours. Then they can pick them up numerous times. Also arrest them when they don't pay the fines. Yes they get money for everyday a person.is there. Even if it's one day
Probably to also stop homeless encampments from popping up
so, to arrest homeless people for sleeping.
Yes. But not *all* homeless. A very problematic subset. If you’re “my landlord is a greedy asshole” homeless, you go to a shelter. It’s hard and scary and it sucks, but there are resources. Underfunded and inadequate resources, but still enough to get you a bed and a shower. And then to get you stable enough to eventually get back on your feet. The overwhelming majority of homelessness lasts 1-2 days, and over 50% of persons who engage with the system are out within 30 days. That’s the homeless you’re really describing, and that’s not the homeless closing parks is aimed at. They’re aimed at a problematic subset of the chronically homeless, who are too violent/problematic for normal assistance, and who gravitate to parks as a default. If you’re violent/erratic enough/refuse to follow rules, you can get kicked out of a homeless shelter, and if you do it often enough they’ll trespass you. And let the other shelters know. So it is in fact possible to get trespassed from all the shelters in town, not because those places don’t care, but because they’re sick of staff getting assaulted, rooms getting set on fire from careless smoking, you refusing to take your schizophrenia meds and smearing all your walls with poop, etc. It’s a very different world. And the people that wind up camping in parks are very often the people who have been kicked out of all the shelters - the most *dangerous* subset, not the most *harmless*. Again, I’m not saying it’s ok to just ignore the homeless or that the levels of homelessness we have is acceptable - even 1 homeless person is unacceptable. I’m just saying that kicking people out of parks is a more complex issue than Reddit commonly thinks.
ah, yes, the classic "but what about the comically insane homeless people" argument. the kind who are homeless entirely of their own fault. how could I have forgotten
Ah yes, the classic "everything I know about the homeless I learned on the internet" response, plus a straw man. How expected. Let us discuss the topic in detail, shall we? First: let's define some terms: - "Homeless" is a big bucket, that includes [invisible homelessness](https://www.chicagohomeless.org/hidden-homelessness-in-the-united-states/) (for example those couch-surfing, living in cars, and staying with friends), [episodic homelessness](https://artfromthestreets.org/blogs/news/the-types-of-homelessness) (for example those who lose housing whenever they breakup with a partner, and immediately move in with the next partner), [transitional homelessness](https://invisiblepeople.tv/understanding-transitional-homelessness/) (ie those who are homeless for a few days before getting hooked up with some form of housing and resources, , usually as a result of a major life crisis, for example a woman fleeing domestic abuse) and [chronic homelessness](https://endhomelessness.org/homelessness-in-america/who-experiences-homelessness/chronically-homeless/) (ie those who are literally living on the streets and in shelters long-term). In the absence of intervention each tends to feed into the next, in a downward spiral. - in addition to those conceptual categories, there are also [HUD's legal critera](https://www.hudexchange.info/homelessness-assistance/coc-esg-virtual-binders/coc-esg-homeless-eligibility/four-categories/), which pertain more to how funding is allotted - in a conversation like this, people are often talking about different things - when someone says "closing parks for the homeless is bad" they're usually primarily thinking of transitional homelessness, and when I say "municipalities close parks to prevent crime associated with homelessness" I'm talking primarily about chronic homelessness Second: let's examine some facts: - [2/3 - 3/4 of homeless persons are struggling with either active or recurrent mental health disorders](https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2024-04-17/most-homeless-americans-are-battling-mental-illness) - [25-50% of the homeless population struggle with addiction](https://www.addictioncenter.com/addiction/homelessness/). This risk increases for some groups, for example it's more like [75% of veterans](https://www.addictionhelp.com/addiction/homelessness/) - [Loss of housing is directly related to increased involvement in the criminal justice system](https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2023/09/11/housing-first/) This isn't surprising. People with no money and no resources still have needs. They need to eat, they need medication, and if they can't get it legally they're not going to just up and die. Add in addiction, and you have another imperative driving potentially criminal behavior. Add in mental health issues, and you get both another imperative and you lose a barrier to social inhibition. The result when all of that is mixed together? A [small percent of homeless individuals account for a disproportionately high percentage of crime](https://www.urban.org/features/five-charts-explain-homelessness-jail-cycle-and-how-break-it), and that crime [tends to be disproportionately violent](https://ps.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ps.201200515). So the cities closing parks at night aren't wrong in their evaluation of the *problem*. It's real. That's not the question. The question is, what is the *solution*. And here is where your reading to respond in outrage instead of reading to comprehend comes back to bite you in the ass. Also your reliance on a strawman. First: I didn't blame the homeless for being homeless. Quite the opposite. I said they have behaviors that increase their vulnerability to the condition, which they do. The *fault* if there is one is society's - we don't provide nearly enough supports for mental health issues and addiction, and we're far too willing to turn a blind eye to homelessness. Second: I didn't say we should close parks, and I didn't say we should jail the homeless. Quite the opposite. **Jailing the homeless doesn't work, and it exacerbates the underlying problems**. All I did was point out *that* cities close parks for those reasons. Which they do. I will leave you with a pro tip: it's easier to understand what people are writing if you take your head out of your ass first.
yknow, maybe if you opened up with good points about the criminal justice system and mental health issues instead of, and I fucking quote, > getting assaulted, rooms getting set on fire from careless smoking, you refusing to take your schizophrenia meds and smearing all your walls with poop, etc. the vast majority of the homeless aren't smearing their walls with poop. interjecting that highly-stereotyped argument makes you sound like a fox news commentator. I work with disabled people for my job. The disabled and homeless would generally vastly prefer that you talk about them respectfully first rather than bludgeoning your arguments over the head with poop smearing as if that's a common issue. edit: also equating all the mental illness that homeless people suffer from to schizoprenia, like, come on dude, you're not fooling anyone. that is right out of my conservative parents' facebook posts
> the vast majority of homeless Did I say the vast majority of homeless do that? No I did not. I in fact said, it’s a small but active percentage. So nice straw man. Again.
okay buddy. see ya later.
Fascism just sort of losing all meaning here
So the state can add a trespassing charge if a homeless person is looking for a quiet place to sleep. Also to add a way for indigenous people to be persecuted for being on their own land.
Spoken like a person who never lived close to a park that homeless people sleep in.
I grew up in Portland Oregon, so…..
And you loved taking your kids to parks that homeless people were sleeping in?
Yeah. If a situation started to be unsafe, we’d leave. Like a responsible parent. Not sure what point you’re trying to make, but you’re not.
lol ok, well the rest of us don't love parks filled with crackheads and used needles. But you do you.
I don’t understand how closing open air parks at night would stop that…. But FYI, not all homeless are drug addicts and not all drug addicts are homeless.
But the crossover in the venn diagram is making up a large portion
But closing the park to YOU is really not the most correct answer.
It's not about closing it, it's about having that law in place so that if people do go in late night to sleep, do drugs, fuck, etc. you don't need to catch them in the act to kick them out.
There are more drug addicts in corporate three there are on the streets.
I totally agree! How didn’t I see it before??? Writing me a ticket for trespassing because I cut through a park at 3am is really going to clean up that drug problem!
You can shelter your child from reality all you want but homeless people exist and deserve to exist peacefully
Yes, how dare those filthy urchins disrupt your evening
Again, speaking like someone who never lived in a bad neighbour hood.
Again, I agree, but did you have to be a Debbie downer and ruin the yes, buts?
No because there would be no one there to keep order. Very simple.
Like the cops who already kick people out of parks after hours? Would they just stop showing up if the park stayed open?
Bears.
Like the animal or...
Nah, the Chicago kind. Justin Fields used to get to the park before dawn so he could get on the teeter totter and wait for the first person to show up so they could play together. He'd wait hours some days.
I mean...I agree, but what are you doing in the park at 2AM?
Drugs…lots of drugs
Cool.
Where?? Trying to avoid because I’ve tried drugs several times and never liked them!
Sounds like you’re not doing the right ones
I have insomnia. I like to walk my dog
I’d be more likely to use a park at 2AM than 6AM
Exercise, star gaze, chill, contemplate why your up at 2 AM at a park when you got work at 6. Being out at 2AM is a liberating experience
It's eerily quiet at 2am as well. I'm a night owl and will frequently go for walks at all hours of the night. It's hard to explain to people just how quiet if they've never experienced it. It's even better after a fresh snowfall of like 1". Like a whole world muffler.
Yep. I hate how people act like you need an explanation for being out late at night. It's peaceful and I like it. Sometimes it's that simple
Can confirm, breaking into parks at night were one of the better dates I've been on (not the US but some of them had gates)
Walking my dogs. Night photography/light painting.
Whatever the fuck I feel like.
being on a swing at 2am while the only lights are the ones on the street is actually very relaxing add a fresh snow fall to that it becomes even better.
Body disposal. The parking lot would be full of long-distance truckers all night long.
Long distance truckers run shit and you need to plan your murders better.
"These damned blue collar tweakers, they have always run this town. Heyy-UH!" ~Primus
I hate the sun and so I don't have to apply sunscreen
I work overnight, so on my days off it'd be nice to go with my cat when there's not so many dogs around.
Down-low gay sex. duh
Historically? Pretending work took longer than it really did. If I'm just gonna just be on my phone or something, I don't need a marital dispute for a personal soundtrack. Plus, nature is dope at night.
Smooching
Red/ultraviolet fishing, I sadly don't own any Riverfront property.
So they can roust homeless people
Vandals
Visigoths
Yeah, who would vandalize something after it was closed? I do my best vandalisms at peak hours
Yep. less dark places to have to patrol and police. Parks also have cliffs, mountains, bodies of water, wildlife, that are a huge liability.
You probably will just be told to leave by a ranger with a flashlight if you are there after hours. As long as you are not drinking or doing other illegal shit.
Yeah, I've had it happen to me when I'd drive into a park for Pokémon Go reasons, sometimes cops are there and go "oh uh the park is closed" and I'd be like "ok thanks for letting me know" and leave, acting like I wasn't already planning on doing that
Is this Leslie Knope?
if you go to an inner city park at night, you will meet the local gang members, and they will help you understand why the curfew is a good idea. If you go to a park in the farm areas at night, you will see lonely farmers hooking up for gay encounters in their pickup trucks, and believe me, no one wants to see that
Is this person being ironic or do they actually think this is an example of fascism?
I think Monkey D luffy is being a tad ironic, maybe even hyperbolic for comedic effect
Apparently any slight inconvenience is now fascism. I prefer to keep with the traditional meaning, found in the dictionary.
Ah yes, the terf method
It’s so stupid and naive. Why are government office buildings locked after business hours? I should be able to roam around in them all night long and sleep in the lobby. It’s a public building!
Exactly the same! Lots of sensitive paperwork and information stored at my local park. If you check under the monkeybars, sometimes you'll find someone's sealed legal records, or uncensored social security numbers on paperwork (associated name included). Idk why tho, I guess beaurocracy is weird like that sometimes.
So I just be able to put up a tent and camp all night in any public park?
What’s wrong with that lol
Yes.
Oh and just live there permanently as well?
Parks close at sunset but nature preserves are open 24 hours… At least that’s how it works where I live.
I mean most parks are pretty dangerous at night wtf you doin there anyway
In my experience, it’s just the facilities that close at night. I’ve been able to drive in/out of state/national parks at night, sometimes even avoiding paying the entrance fee due to the kiosk being closed (I’ve always seen the gate open at night despite close - they can’t lock people in there; emergencies happen). I guess if they were vigilant enough, they could surveil the entrance and send cops to follow night time visitors. But as others have pointed out, it seems they selectively do so for homeless people and criminals doing drugs, graffitiing, or destroying nature.
Most (all?) of the State parks in my area actually do have gates that are closed at night.
JFC. Do people even understand what fascism means? 🤣
It’s just to stop the squares from seeing what everyone else is into
See two people literally trying to push someone off a platform and into oncoming traffic? I gotta argue with 911 that this is an actual emergency that requires a cop. But God forbid I’m still in the park one minute before closing. The cops are acting as if they are being assaulted and might need backup. I might just be walking to my car, but somehow that constitutes a dangerous situation. I‘m told by others they just act this way because I look young, and they don’t want teens hanging out. As if this is a good rationale. As if I should be okay with kids being treated this way.
I've had numerous "violations" that I needed to handle in a court of law all related to being in or near a park that had no fence or walls of any kind. Just not allowed to use the bench. Not allowed to be there. This post is a bit triggering actually because of all the hassle I've had in my life due to so-called "park after dark" violations 🫣
I haven’t been ticketed and am actually out of the park by the time every time, but I’ve been harassed as I’m leaving because the closing time was approaching. Actually, they all try to act as if the curfew has already passed until I inform them I’m capable of reading a watch.
The type of person who is in a park at 3AM is the type of person that ruins a park for the people who want to be there at Noon.
The nooners ruin it for me
I’m just very nocturnal. But the only time I’ve actually been removed from a park at night was in Ireland. And it was only 10 p.m.!
10pm is fine and you should be allowed to be there, but after midnight everyone knows who’s using a park and it’s not children and families. It’s people going there to drink, do drugs, sell drugs, fuck, or sleep. So unless you like used condoms, needles, roaches, homeless people sleeping on benches, and a whole bunch of trash then you don’t want late night park goers.
It’s to deter shady activities.
Probably because some uptight politician thought that The Gays would infiltrate the park and spread their gayness to the community. Also the homelesss.
Because the rest of us are tired of our tax dollars going to clean up after late night vandalism.
Right? Lock it up… no one will ever vandalize it again
YEA! I wanna run in the park between dusk and dawn and be murdered EXACTLY like the 70’s! YEA! Leave it open 24/7! Super safe! Its ONLY about sticking it to the homeless - not about the classic damsel jogging at 1AM who doesnt understand why she could have possibly been targeted! /s What is there to enjoy in the park after dark? If its only to keep homeless people from sleeping there…any animals? Want a rabid person wandering around? Rampant drug use and trafficking Signed - someones whose uncle was a former park ranger and advocated to close it for safety against bears, racoons, and people to be in shelters instead of out in the streets
They have closing times so that cops can come by and “gently” escort you out or arrest you for trespassing because the park closed at 7:00 and it’s now 7:01