It is not bad to want to love and raise a child. It IS bad if you consider that child a band-aid to pre-existing relationships or emotional issues. Children are to be loved and raised with care and as much wisdom as possible. They aren't pets. They do not exist to make you happy, or to eventually be your therapy human.
Most of all, because I've seen this too many damn times (even once is too many), children are not the glue that keeps a partner with you. Don't fucking have children if you think it'll make your partner stay with you.
The decision to have a child should be made with all of this information in mind.
And remember you’re raising a PERSON. Dont have a kid to have a KID - most of your life with them will be spent with them as an adult. Theyre a baby for an extremely short period of time.
Yep. If you want to hang out with kids, awesome. Go be a teacher or a daycare worker.
If you want to raise a human into adulthood, have a baby.
Interestingly, I was a child-free teacher for a long time before I met my step-son, and people kept telling me that because I was a good kindergarten teacher and obviously loved my job, I should have children.
Hoooo boy, teaching your kids to read for 6 hours and raising a human who *lives in my house* are not the same thing.
I worked with at risk teens for 5 years, spent a lot of time with them. I loved it! I also loved coming home to my quiet house and fuzzy 4 legged children.
It’s so funny you say that because I have two kids, love them dearly, love being a mom, but _omg do I respect the hell out of teachers_. I always knew I didn’t have the patience to teach, but now having kids I can’t imagine doing that, multiplied by 15, and you don’t even get to keep them!
A child won’t automatically love you. You have to earn it as a parent. The reasons to have a child are selfish reasons, by their nature, and selfish doesn’t automatically mean bad, either. Having a child is self enriching and difficult.
Edit: I know this because I have some empathy for my twin brother who’s raising two wonderful children. I have a vasectomy and will likely never have children
Sure, but most "selfish" things only affect you and your own life. Having a kid is "selfish" in the sense that it primarily affects the life of another human being.
I like your point that is is selfish but selfish isn’t inherently bad. There ARE bad reasons to have a kid. That doesn’t make having a kid an inherently bad decision.
I learned in therapy that no emotion is a bad emotion - they’re evolutionarily developed sensory tools. Afraid? It’s because getting to safety keeps you alive. Angry? It’s because anger motivates you to end disadvantageous situations.
This is how my little sister was born. She was an ultimatum baby. I don't fully understand why my dad let it happen, but he's definitely settled for someone who frustrates him and doesn't seem to make his life any easier. I love her, she's been around and like a second mom for me for almost a decade but their relationship feels so strained 90% of the time. My dad's given up on his romantic life and it's depressing as hell. My little sister only adds to both their stress. She was born out of selfishness and I'm worried for how her life is going to be like as Im around less often and her parents are in a near loveless relationship. Mine were divorced when I was about 3, so I didn't go through that. She's already 6 and I'm hoping she grows up to understand she shouldn't be like them and to develop healthy relationships
Yes, exactly!!! I'm so glad that this was said, took the words right out of my mouth.
I'll also reinforce this comment by saying that, before deciding to have a child, I think that you should work on yourself first before having a child so that they're coming into a stable environment. I've seen a lot of people have kids because they have some sort of trauma and basically desire children to have a re-do/trying to make up for what was missing....but what actually ends up happening is they replicate the same abuses that were done to them, further continuing a cycle of generational trauma. I think it's perfectly fine to have kids, but before doing so, we need to break our generational curses (it ends with us!)
So, have kids, but also make sure you're healthy and in a good place. Go to therapy, nurture your relationships, connect with your community, do the shadow work. A child is not a bandaid and/or punching bag, and having a child should not really be abojt you at all, it's about them. We live in an adultist society that treats children as property and it shouldn't be. Children are the most [abused group in our society.](https://youtu.be/6n60TRHQ6Wg)
The same applies to romantic partners as well; if you raise a child with someone, make sure the relationship you're in isn't you acting out a [parental rescue fantasy ](https://youtu.be/1XuhxNyhjmc) , and that you are modelling healthy relationships and healthy love to your children.
And most importantly, love them! And love them in a genuine, non-objectifying way. 💕💗 Children are a vulnerable population and deserve to be protected and cherished.
>I think that you should work on yourself first before having a child so that they're coming into a stable environment
Nothing has made me go "thank goodness I went to therapy" more then having a kid. All the skills I learned in therapy + the few sessions of couples counseling we did pop up constantly as she gets older.
God, this. My daughter is only 15 months but I struggled with PPA and I can't even imagine what things would have been like if I hadn't been in therapy for the last like 15 years. I felt sad that I had to wait til my early 30s to start a family but I now realize that mentally, emotionally, I couldn't have done it any sooner. I've learned so much about myself in the past year or so, not all of it good lol.
Exactly most of the time children especially young children are merciless sycopaths that don't care about your needs none the less wants. Then they will give you the tiniest sliver of affection and its like the sun comes out after weeks of rain.
The best quote I ever heard is when you have a baby it's not love you feel right off the bat it's Stockholm syndrome, your brain needs to protect itself from the very real litteral torture of sleep deprivation and noise. The real love comes later as they develop real personalities and begin expressing them in ways you both can communicate ( btw baby sign language rocks my 1 yr 4 mo. old knows 8 signs so much less struggle)
If you have any doubt that you don't want your whole entire life to be about the kid from what you watch on TV to never going out again finger sized foods and spending 13% of Your budget on childcare (supposing you can find any) don't have a child no matter who pressures you into. Not your parents and not your partner. Your entire life will change your entire house will multiple times as they develop.
Correct. I made two separate statements and did not compare children to pets for that exact reason. Thank you for stating that more strongly, because it is clear that some people do consider children as pets.
As someone with a fucked up situation and who is vehemently childfree, I will come right out and say that it is not inherently selfish to want to have a kid.
However, you have to be willing to allow your kid the best life, even if that life isn't what you pictured for them. Doing anything else is selfish.
If you kid says they're Trans, support it. If your kid ends up the bully in school, support them through therapy. If your kid wants to be a punk rocker but you hate punk rock, tough titties, you support the punk rocker despite your opinions.
Dictating what your child will be and guilting them or micromanaging them is what makes having a kid selfish. Most parents think their kid is their property, and they try to treat their kids as such, which is why their kids grow up going no contact and hating their parents. Many parents had kids because they were under the impression their kids would be forced into servitude for them until they died, which is selfish af.
When you have a kid, the way to be unselfish about that is to give your child the space and respect to become the best version of themselves. Even if it was not how you imagined them to be. You re there to teach them to handle the world, not to guilt them into worshipping and serving you.
And because this is a witchy sub, I wanna add one more thing. I know a woman who mentioned to me that she wants to have a child to invoke some old magic. Personally, I think that's selfish, but admittedly, I didn't ask what magic, so maybe not; i never got the details (mostly because if i had asked i dont think shed have offered them anyway as she never discusses her magic). But from my perspective, having a child for any reason other than to give another human being a chance to live on earth is selfish.
Your kid is not a tool or way to get anything for yourself; if there is any reason whatsoever that you want to have a kid that relates back to your benefitting, sit with it and make sure you work it out yourself FIRST. The only non selfish reason to have a kid is to give someone the chance and tools and knowledge to experience this world.
Well said. Wanting to give a new human a chance to live on this earth and helping them grow is a beautiful thing.
Wanting a child to make a mini me is selfish.
My favorite response. I just had a baby and I went through it with a family that wanted me to be crammed in to their mold. So I have stressed a lot about just wanting my child to be the best version of themselves possible and not interfering with that. I really appreciate how you worded this!
It’s fine to want child/children. It’s fine to not want a child/children. You don’t need to justify wanting to have a child, but you should have the resources to emotionally, physically, spiritually and financially provide for one. You have to be willing to shelve your own interests until they grow up. You have to be willing to always put them first and to accept that you may be supporting them far into their adulthood. If that all sounds like a worthy sacrifice with no hesitations then that’s fine.
Some people will be parents, some won’t.
Just add to that, some will be parents, when they shouldn't have been. It's horrific how many parents treat their children like slaves or try to force them to become a version of themselves. There are entire subreddits dedicated to horrible parents. It requires an amount of education, understanding and compassion that so many parents lack.
Edit: To add that also, if you wouldn't be able to love and support a child who is gay, trans, is or becomes disabled or has learning difficulties, additional needs or mental illness, do not have them.
I would have said all of these exact words. I’m always surprised at allllll the young women who are surprised at how HARD it is to raise kids. It’s exhausting. It’s sacrifice. It’s expensive. It can be isolating. But of course there are a lot of upsides. Only you can say if it is the right journey for you.
Even just carrying, then birthing the child can be exhausting, painful, humiliating, dangerous, sometimes scarring etc etc... like, people do not talk enough about the hardships of pregnancy + childbirth + motherhood.
> You have to be willing to shelve your own interests until they grow up
This really isn't a healthy mindset to have. Yes you need to understand that you'll have some less time and such but fully sacrificing everything about yourself for your kid isn't healthy for you or for the kid.
Thank you for saying this - it's no wonder women struggle with identify following motherhood. You don't need to sacrifice everything, you still matter as an individual.
People get really weird about it (I also think a huge part of it is a seriously large number of frankly useless partners once you have the baby). A lot of it obviously depends on your own kid's temperament once they are born but past the initial 4 month all hands on deck newborn phase where it's just a blur of eating, pooping and sleeping you do start getting some time back to just kinda be "you" again. Like I keep seeing posts from people about not having any time to shower/eat/use the bathroom during the newborn phase and I'm just thinking unless you are a single parent those should all be doable things (and even as a single parent your newborn won't explode if you put them in a baby bouncer for 5 min so you can shower, crying for 5 min won't kill them)
I don't ever want to put the pressure on my daughter of her being literally the only thing in my life. She needs to know that Mommy's wants and interests matter too in order to not be a horrible tyrant creature when she gets older.
Yup. I really do wish my mom spent more time doing fun things with me rather than scolding me to study 24/7 and giving up her own identity in order to supervise my studies all the time. She's in her 50s now and she's chilled out, I like spending time with her a lot more this way.
But you do sacrifice most things. You end up picking one or two things if you you are a single mother and that's it.
I kept practicing with my coven with how smart my toddler is and her need for constant supervision .
(In 3 day she figured out 4 ways to defeat the baby gate including moving rather heavey furniture) I cannot leave her alone for any amount of time. Then the lack of childcare or a village to help. My father had his parents brothers cousins and aunts. In 3 mo. Iv had yet to have an hour off despite asking brother and father and friends.
I'm sorry to hear about your situation, it certainly does take a village to raise a child and I can only imagine how hard it is to be a single parent. I hope it gets easier for you as your toddler grows, and you are able to have more free time to devote to your hobbies and interests. Keep asking your family for help and tell them that you're really struggling, I hope they pull through for you!
I was going to comment this too. Kids can enjoy interests with you. My 2 year old bakes with me multiple times a week. We paint together, hike together and play basketball. Of course it’s a little modified but I love sharing my interests with her. She will be ready for board games soon and I can’t wait.
>She will be ready for board games soon and I can’t wait.
Ha, this is what we are waiting for too! I think we've got at least another 2 years if I am being super optimistic. Heck my 1 year old loves hiking with me though, she just hangs out in the carrier looking at stuff. She actually even enjoys cooking with me (right now it's just standing in the toddler tower and banging measuring cups together while I narrate like Julia Child but she enjoys it).
Edit: Forgot we took my daughter to fiber festival a few weeks ago and she loved it. Got to look at all the colorful yarn, pet a bunny, squished fiber in her hands and everyone told her she was adorable.
You’re right and I probably didn’t word it very well - I suppose I meant that if you have quite intensive hobbies or interests that take up a lot of time, they might have to take a back seat for a while. I’ve seen that in close friends once they’ve had children and I’d say it was a loss of time rather than identity if that makes sense? But you make a fair point, so thanks.
I think Reddit has a lot of communities or users who are quick to make things “selfish.” I understand what OP is saying here, and I’ve considered posting similar questions along the lines of “what is an UNselfish reason to have a child” bc it seems like with those users there is no answer. I want to raise a family. I’ve wanted to raise kids since I WAS a kid. I saw myself as being a parent someday far longer than I imagined I’d ever fall in love or partner up. Sometimes it is in you. Sometimes it isn’t. That’s hard to explain on both sides when you’re speaking to someone who has already decided you’re in the wrong.
I agree with you that having kids is selfish. But if that's what you want (in this context) it's OK. Just make sure you do right by them. They are their own person with feelings, opinions, and rights.
So, I am not super up on the antinatalism community, but I do share some of their ideas that our population, globally, probably needs to go down, or at least stop going up. That's just basic math.
It is also true that the population IS going down in developed, richer countries that have more social security, better rights and opportunities for women, better health care and family planning options, and better quality of life over all, and that it is going up in countries that are not as developed, with not as much money, equality, or social security.
I think that means it's pretty clear what has to happen to have population go down, and it's not attacking individual people for wanting to have a baby - which is a perfectly natural thing for a person to want (it is also perfectly natural for a person to not want it).
If you, as an individual, want a baby, then you, as an individual, are not contributing to overpopulation globally ALL BY YOURSELF. We don't solve this problem by taking away individual rights or making individual people miserable (whether you want or don't want a baby, getting the opposite is going to be miserable).
It's like climate change - we need governments to make laws that stop 400 private jets flying away from the super bowl and corporations from spilling toxins into the sky, and instead we're shaming individuals for not composting on their balcony or buying the food they can afford for their family even though it's wrapped in plastic.
If antinatalists want the population to go down, they should be working towards a more egalitarian world where the people in countries that have population explosion have what they need to have the quality of life, healthcare, employment opportunities (in many places it is still in a woman's best interests to provide children for a family for economic security), and a declining birth rate.
But it's a fuck of a lot easier to make you, an individual, feel like garbage and consider sacrificing your happiness, and then pat themselves on the back for a job well done.
This is exactly the same as shaming individuals for not recycling well enough or taking showers when corporations are polluting or using water for large scale for profit farming.
I agree so much with this.
I also believe a much bigger impact on population growth can be attained by supporting people who don't want children than by shaming people who do. My personal goal for the world is for all children to be wanted and cherished. The only pressure to have a child should come from within one's soul. Not having that just means it's not the right choice for you.
This is a fantastic response. The antinatalist community truly does focus on the individual and tries to shame a person into not having children because reason. The reasons are usually around climate change and/or overpopulation, which was wisely addressed above; or the antinatalist contributor's own sense of suffering in the world (projection), which must necessarily be addressed by that person, not the individual who wants to have a child.
I think OP, have a child if you want one. My daughter recently became a parent, and that little one is being raised by adoring, mature, responsible parents and grandparents. I am bursting with love and pride for these parents, and the baby is my world. Does this sound like a mistake to you?!!!!🌹
I have never heard of the antenatalism sub before and a little of what you've said here about it makes me afraid that there's some eugenics ideology involved, since that typically goes with wanting to lower the global population
The sub is a horrible representation of only the most superficial and worst interpretation of the philosophy behind antinatalism. If you want to get a better understanding of it, and how it is rooted in empathy, I would recommend the writings of David Benatar or Théophile de Giraud.
I don't agree with antinatalism, for logical and for spiritual reasons, but I think the idea as such comes from a good place - most of the time - and is another valid try to grapple with our flawed existence. Not that sub here though, that's just a horrible place full of very hurt people. Don't go there.
There is ABSOLUTELY eugenics involved.
I believe governments should create an egalitarian society where people don't need to have children to be economically secure (either because they need the labour or because if they don't provide babies they won't have a home) and where family planning is part of an equal and well funded health care system. If you provide that, people will self select for having babies or not. We are seeing that with declining birth rates in the developed nations. Declining birth rates are not the only, or even driving, force for needing that egalitarian society. No eugenics there!
Some antinatalists believe that, rather than providing the conditions for healthy self-selection, somebody should be making the selection for people. Example: "Some people with disabilities suffer. Therefore, people with disabilities shouldn't reproduce." Or, "People who are poor have a difficult time providing a life free of suffering for their children. Therefore, people living in poverty shouldn't reproduce."
There are OBVIOUS ways to alleviate that suffering that do not involve telling whole groups of people not to reproduce, but I have seen both of those arguments made by antinatalists.
So yeah, your worry that antinatalists are in bed with eugenics is WELL FUCKING FOUNDED.
Yeah. Ultimately, who is going to decide who does and doesn’t have the children, exactly?
And although I share similar ethical concerns in the sense that *I personally* would not feel right having biological children and bringing more children into a broken world… I cannot stand that subreddit and its general outlook. Some of the posts drip with vitriol towards mothers. Just why?
I totally understand wanting our society to examine why we seem to think having children is “just what you do,” and I understand wanting us as humans to start fixing our issues before bringing tons more children in the world. But to shame individual mothers and their children for existing is way too far.
The whole thing gives me an icky feeling I can’t properly articulate.
There's a definite subset of eugenics.(the antinatalism sub is also going through a breakup ATM because of these and other bigoted sentiments)
A lot of us, myself included are very anti eugenics, but it's a well established thing that eugenics parrots our ideas but only to cover their asses.
As in "it's not right to bring a child into a world/ life of suffering" being an excuse to kill kids rather than inspiration to improve society. The key imo to suss out true antinatalism is in it's equality. Either it's amoral to have kids or it's not. It's not a matter of which kids deserve to live, but that no child deserves to be forced into a life they didn't consent to, only to suffer.
So very well put and so on point about it being easier for some to pick on one person for wanting a child than it is to try to solve the larger sources of the problem.
I have two kids, and the antinatalism sub always pops up for me. Maybe because I laugh at people’s jokes about how horrific little kids are??? IDK. Anyway, I had mine at 38 and 40, because I started to feel “maternal” very late in life (like early 30’s, I guess), and I knew I wanted to be with the right person. When I met my partner, it clicked. I knew it was right. It took a long time, and only happened when I seriously began looking into adoption via foster care. Then the second one happened with zero trying. I did a lot of intention, meditation, etc in preparation. I had a crappy childhood. I didn’t want to have kids for the wrong reasons. Within that process, I really did some internal work, and I do believe it really helped my perspective. My kids are wholly autonomous little humans. They are not mine to mold, but my responsibility to guide. So far, they’re turning out pretty well (3 year old is still up in the air, they’re a total terror, but I’m told they’re very normal).
I told my husband that I would look at being a mom as a 24/7 job I chose. I’m excited to have that job, I want to love my children, but those kids are their own people and my actual job is to guide and and support them to the best of my ability. The goal is independence from us. Success is them leaving and living their own lives. You have such short, precious time with them.
I also laugh at people's jokes about how horrific little kids are. Mine is 5.5 and she's so cool now.
I'm very happy to have my autonomous human to guide. 😊 I became a Mama at 34! But it was the right time for me too.
I really enjoy my kiddo and I always want people to know that having kids is hard, sure, but it's also freakin awesome sometimes! I had and have a SHITTY mom and I wasn't sure I wanted a kid. I wasn't maternal. But now I'm having a really actually good time!
Are you maybe experiencing shame from that subreddit not guilt? It took me a while to learn the difference. Guilt is when you do something bad and regret it. Shame is thinking that you are bad, unworthy, broken, etc.
People will spew their opinions about everything onto anyone who will listen. It’s up to you how much you will let it effect how you live your life.
Your question makes me thing if Lilith in Eden wanting to have her own children. She didn’t need a reason, she didn’t need to wait for “god” to give her permission, she wanted something she had the power of achieving so she did the most bad ass thing possible. She did what she wanted. Women are conditioned to think meeting our own desires or needs is selfish and it’s a bunch of crap to hold you back from your own potential.
Do what makes you happy. Fuck other people’s projected opinions. Make this life what you want it to be.
I think you are making a very good point here. It's probably shame coming from other women. There is often a twisted misogyny around motherhood and some women who don't want kids really lean into that and perpetuate it.
Doctors told my mom not to breastfeed. We all turned out great.
But holy shit do people have opinions on other peoples lives! The stories she’s told. So yeah, fuck what that subreddit thinks. Block that subreddit if you have to.
As a childfree person, I think it is great when a person wants to have a child to love and raise, and they really want to be a parent. I do not approve of people that bring a child to the world for other reasons, like “fixing” a marriage, against their will and to please the family/partner, out of pressure etc
Ultimately, it is your choice. This is what I fight for when it comes to human rights - the right to choose. Do your research on how to support a growing child and you will be already better than most parents out there. Whatever you do or don't someone will be upset, the choice is only yours.
This is my personal view, and I don't judge either way.
It's selfish in all the right ways. It's a biological function many people have, and it's one that many don't. I have had the chance to have biological kids before and always passed on the idea. My reason is because I feel like a lot of people only think of themselves as a single entity, but we aren't. There are over 7 billion humans on earth. Many who are kids that need a home.
I also feel like, as humans, we have a very short memory that focuses on our recent history. Humans first appeared roughly 2 million years ago. That means in those 2 million years, it took us to 1950 to hit 2.5 billion in population and only 70 years to grow past 7 billion.
That is obscenely out of balance with nature and isn't sustainable in any way, shape, or form. I have taken in 3 kids who were abandoned by their family because they are part of the LGBT+ community. They only stayed with me for a few years max, and they are now in college and thriving. I love my kids more than I could ever put into words.
Regardless of how you want to have kids, there are a few things I recommend.
1. Be financially stable. It takes a lot of money, not just to have a kid but to also provide an enriching life. School, books, sports, and all other forms of activity that enrich children are expensive af!
2. Have a safe environment. Stable home life isn't just loving your kid. It's making sure they have healthy food and plenty of it, teenagers devour a lot of food! Do you have a support system? Are you able to accept your kid if they are part of the LGBT+ community? There are a lot of factors that go into having a safe environment.
3. Resolve your trauma and go to therapy so you don't pass it on. We all have trauma and things to grow beyond. Can you handle the stress of raising human without traumatizing them?
4. Kids are not a solution to anything. They won't fix a relationship. They won't "complete" you. If you have a kid without seeing them as an individual human being and not a small you, then you've already defined and judged what this person is without ever meeting them.
5. Know yourself, how do you help a child grow and figure out who they want to be if you don't know yourself already?
All that being said... no one is perfect, and I don't expect any parent to be perfect. Humans are deeply emotional and flawed creatures. Being aware of what it takes, though, is a good start. Good luck with whatever way you want to have kids, and never forget you always have support here.
100% your choice. Own it and don’t worry about what anyone else thinks.
My experience & 2 cents is having a grown child with multiple severe mental health issues is had I known the suffering he was going to go through I wouldn’t have had him. Lots of parents regret having kids and society glamorizes it out of need for future workers. No one tells you the truth. You don’t find out until you have them. And once you choose to bring them into existence your obligation to them never ends, especially if they have disabilities. It’s up to you to make their life as free of suffering as possible because you are the reason they are here experiencing it.
As a person who has surgically reenforced being child free, I say this...
If you are having children or a child because you think your genes are special, you want someone to love you and take care of you when your old...
Then you reason for having children is likely selfish.
If you have no idea why you want children but feel driven towards it then you might want to reach deeper than that before you have them. Women's value in patriarchy is deeply programmed as your reproduction on top of just normal bio programming.
If you are willing to prepare that person you're making for a world on the track our planet is on.
If willing to love them and do the hard selfless work it takes to be a parent in the effort of raising one that might be able to cooperate in difficult times.
Then by all means, add a human.
Yeah reckoning with the state of the wild right now is a big one:
My friends all have kids and only one has really prepared their children for the reality of late-stage capitalism and environmental loss. Not in a survivalist/bunker way but in terms of the skills they need to know, teaching them about emergency evacuation preparation, understanding finances/debt, tech safety, data, language acquisition, and focusing on skills that will be needed (food prep from scratch, and sustainability). They still play on school basketball teams and have fun. But they also understand flooding can happen and know the family meet up point.
We are not bringing kids into a kind or stable world. And listen, it’s never been amazing here, but I think most of our children are vastly unprepared for the real dangers of debt and climate disaster that await them.
I genuinely feel like that’s why we are seeing so much anger and apathy from those in their teens and early 20s right now. They suddenly see clearly the future that lays before them and feel both cheated of the skills and ability to adapt to reality.
So make sure you’re making an honest assessment of what you can provide.
This! Fantastic advice.
As an adoptee, I have never understood the obsession with genes and genetics. It’s so deeply rooted in our society yet strikes me as so implicitly toxic. Yet somehow it seems to be a big reason why people have children to begin with.
And conflating value as a woman with motherhood is obviously a big discussion these days. It’s an insidious little voice in the back of so many of our heads.
I think people should have children because they *love children* and want to see child grow up to be happy and healthy. That’s not selfish.
Raising good kids, and to the best of your ability equipping them to be good adults, can absolutely help the world to be better.
100% if you're in it to give love and raise for the coming world, then yes.
And I am more for adoption and with recent changes there will be even more children who desperately need loving homes.
Should my partner and I decide to change our child free stance adoption out of the foster system will be our path.
My advice may not be for everyone. Having a child isn't a selfish decision in my opinion. But I also think that you can't be a selfish person and enjoy raising a child. They are time consuming, hard work, and likely will break your heart, also, they are expensive. Kids need so much of your time, constantly. They love to ask questions and demand answers. And my son threw up. A lot. Lol. I hope this helps? Blessings to you.
I’m on my last day of an extended family trip with the in-laws. They have two kids under 3 years old and another due at the end of the year. They are very sweet and well-behaved kids considering how young they are, but my god, it never stops. We rented a large cabin for our group of 12 and it’s been a valuable insight seeing what their day-to-day life is like.
Yesterday, they had to spend all day in a rural urgent care center because the 11 month old had an ear infection. Apparently, the baby cried every time my BIL sat down, so he had to stand…for the whole time. 6+ hours. He was bursting to pee and seriously considering going to the toilet while continuing to hold his son, but thankfully my SIL showed up and was able to take over for a bit.
Every morning they look like they haven’t slept a wink, with one or the other child crying periodically throughout the night. Mealtimes are a mess and they end up eating more cold, slobbery leftovers from the kids’ plates than they do their own. They’re a good couple and I know they love each other, and I don’t remember them acting this way before the kids, but they are short-tempered and snappy with each other now. I never see them kiss, hug, or speak to each other affectionately.
And this is all on vacation when things are supposed to be relaxing and they’re both 100% available. I can’t imagine how stressful it is to handle this load while also going to work.
My husband and I have been on the fence about kids for so long - I’ve always, always, always wanted children, but when it started to become a real possibility suddenly my brain threw up a roadblock and was like, “Whoa there, sure about that?” Obviously it’s much more difficult for them, having two kids so young and another already on the way. We wouldn’t have so many so quickly, so maybe it wouldn’t be as difficult for us. But the past four days have certainly served to make that mental roadblock even wider and even taller.
Tbh, holidays with small kids can be EXTREMELY stressful - we had three under three (all long grown now) and the thing is, your home is set up for your kids. They have their own spaces, their own routines, their own furniture and they are used to what happens and who’s around them. You know where the dangers are and have mitigated them, you have your home organised to take account of the kids and it’s set up to be as easy to run as possible. Take them (and you) away from all that and you’ve got a recipe for disaster with stressed and stroppy kids, exhausted parents and just a general level of anxiety in everyone.
Parents can’t relax because the house isn’t set up for small children and it’s unfamiliar (and someone else’s to boot)so they have to be on alert **all the time** to make sure the kids don’t get into things they’re not supposed to, get hurt on unfamiliar furniture and in unfamiliar spaces, or they accidentally break or damage something that the parents will then have to replace. The kids get over-tired and overstimulated with all the other people about who aren’t usually there, and they get cranky and bad tempered and honestly, it’s just a whole bag of NOPE. We didn’t have a relaxing holiday with our three until the oldest was about ten, and our three were good, well-behaved kids who didn’t fight and weren’t rowdy. Holidays are exhausting with small children.
Exactly right - my point is not that it’s supposed to be easier on vacation, my point is that the parents are constantly working and *even on vacation,* they don’t get to relax. It literally -n e v e r- stops for them.
Even though we have tried to make things as accommodating as possible - there are five other adults here (three with parenting experience and the other two with babysitting experience) to help pick up the slack a bit. And the kids have grown up with us, we’re not distant family members who only see each other occasionally. We’re not strangers to them. We’ve only been hanging out in the cabin and surrounding woods, this isn’t a sightseeing type of vacation, so the kids are still on their normal eating/sleeping routines, and not exposed to any unfamiliar people (except at the urgent care center.) Plus, the house was specifically chosen due to its family friendly aspects - totally kidproof with locking cabinets, nothing breakable, plasticware instead of glass, buckets and buckets of kid toys and books, tables with rounded edges, etc.
As far as vacations with small kids go, this should be the absolute easiest, and it’s *still* a slog for them.
I need to disagree. Give this experience the weight it deserves. Vacations with children are like this, and you’ll have to deal with it for however many years. And many other things with children will be difficult. If you are still willing and enthusiastic about procreating after considering this, go for it.
Antinatalism sometimes makes good points, but is not a perfect philosophy and its followers are not in possession of THE TRUTH.
If you truly want a child after knowing and considering the awful, exhausting, painful parts of the process, then do it.
But this is one of the few parts of child rearing you can really just kind of opt out of. We have zero intentions of taking my kids on a vacation anywhere except a family camp until the youngest is 3 maybe 4 cause we realize it's just a way to burn money to be really exhausted. We don't get anything out of it, the kids don't get anything out of it, it's just kind of an adventure in pointlessness.
I understand, but see, you KNOW what it’s like and you opt out. If you were wearing your rose colored glasses you might think it will be a 24/7 sunscreen commercial with the kids placidly building sandcastles. Knowledge is power, my witches.
Thanks, I’m almost certain we will have kids eventually, we just have never reached that point where we’re like “ok, fuck the insecurities, let’s do it.” Though we both desperately want them, we are afraid.
Part of me wishes I would fall pregnant unexpectedly and then the choice would be made for us.
That's not even the hardest part. I would take the "never sit down" toddler days with endless rounds of croup and painful potty training over the teenage years. My son is actually a delight - not disrespectful or defiant or pushing boundaries. But he's depressed about the world and his role in it. He's had suicidal ideations. He's stressed about the future and feels like he has nothing to contribute. Absolutely heartbreaking to see my sweet baby go through this.
That’s certainly the phase I’m most afraid of. None of my nieces or nephews are experiencing this at the moment, so I don’t have firsthand experience with it (edit: from an adult’s perspective) but I struggle with mental health myself and have done since I was probably around your son’s age. And society is so difficult for young people nowadays, it’s bound to be even worse for any child now than it has been for me.
>He was bursting to pee and seriously considering going to the toilet while continuing to hold his son,
I'm stunned he waited. I've pee'd holding my 12 month old so many times it's not even an event when it happens.
Also you likely saw them at their worst. Vacations with a little kid are NOT relaxing. Essentially you are just parenting in another place without child proofing. It's kind of a nightmare, your kids sleep like crap cause they are somewhere unfamiliar (mine sleeps 12 hours straight a night at home, traveling she's up at least twice a night) , they have less freedom since things aren't baby proofed so you can't just let them free to run around on the floor and such, you are missing a lot of your normal "stuff" that makes having a kid easier (high chairs, toys etc) and they are likely wildly over stimulated from new places, people and a disruption to their routine.
I look like I've been dragged backwards through a hedgerow when I take my daughter places overnight but at home it's really not that hard.
This brought back memories of my colicky son.
The good news for me is that those years were relatively short-lived. Yes, they were difficult and I was trying to establish a new career at the same time. Now he is a grown man and I’m planning to retire in another decade.
While one never stops being a parent, the work definitely subsides. Not a single regret for choosing to have my two. Again, it’s not for everyone, but in retrospect, it was hugely rewarding for me.
It's selfish to have kids because you want them, it's selfish to not have kids because you don't want them.
That's what selfish is - it's doing what you want. It's just that our culture respects one desire and denigrates the other.
This is the comment I was going to leave if I didn't see it. Of course having a child is selfish. So is choosing not to have a child. But there's nothing wrong with being selfish in this instance, as long as you love and care for your child.
i was going to answer that! And I'll add : why would it be bad to be selfish? As long as it's not to others detriment, one has to think of one's happiness.
As someone who is pregnant, I think the responses I have gotten about this pregnancy about selfishness is people have told me that it is unethical and selfish for me to have a kid- I’ve heard about the environment, overpopulation, dystopian futures that I’m subjecting another human being to (as if we are absolutely going to face a dystopian reality in the next ~40 years), etc. People have come up to me, strangers and friends alike, to tell me that having a child is to the detriment of the planet and humanity.
Yeah, the bigger problem - always - is that people think women's bodies and behavior and status is up for public commentary and judgement.
It's nunya bidness, jerks.
Thats awful. Where do u live? I’ve only seen the opposite. Online i see people respect others wishes to not have kids but in person people/society mostly seems to expect every single person to have children. 🤷♀️
I’m honestly getting uncomfortable with how preachy and judgemental a lot of the replies in this thread are being. Maybe they’re just trying to thoroughly answer OP’s question, but I get really sick of people on feminist subreddits voicing their opinions on who should and shouldn’t have children.
I get that a lot of people in this sub and probably online in general had parents that maybe would have been better off not having kids, and that even slightly neglective parenting can be traumatic. But it’s not anyone here’s business to decide who is fit to be a parent and who isn’t.
I bet very, *very* few men get comments like that. It's just that people feel like women, their choices and their bodies are up for public commentary in a way that just doesn't happen to men.
I agree. To me, people believing that they should get to have an opinion on who should or shouldn’t be allowed to have children is how we get to a dystopia really fast. It’s ironically similar to pro-life beliefs—it infers the right to choose for someone else what people do or don’t do with their body.
Yeah that’s exactly what I was trying to get at. I mean technically there are people whose job it is to decide who is fit and isn’t fit to parent (judges, CPS, etc) but even then, people still have the option to reproduce and are given the chance to be good parents before legal action is taken.
I know OP asked for opinions, but I don’t like that people are making blanket statements like “you shouldn’t have kids if ____”. Who gets to draw the line that decides someone is too poor/selfish/busy/mentally unstable/whatever to have children? Obviously it’s fine and great to draw that line for yourself, but it’s not okay to push your arbitrary standard on others. And - especially in terms of income inequality- are only rich people allowed to have children now? Because there are plenty of great poor parents and shitty rich parents.
I better stop before I get on my soapbox, but I am just frequently shocked on feminist subs how many people shit on mothers and people who want children, seemingly without even realizing it. Literally saying things like “I am childfree and of course I have no problem with/support mothers! I personally couldn’t be selfish enough to feel the need to continue my genetic legacy while the planet is burning, but you do you :)” and don’t understand why people with children/who want children might find that a little offensive. (Ok sorry I didn’t stop)
I agree. It's so strange especially to see money brought up so frequently. I remember reading an essay from a foster parent who was going on and on about how financially solvent she and her husband were when it came to trying to adopt a child. And the social worker sighed and told her, "being poor doesn't make you a bad parent!" And she felt like she was smacked in the face. But it's true. She learned something that day and other people need that wake up call apparently.
My husband grew up in extreme poverty in a developing country, but had a loving family. And while he has some lingering effects of that, it certainly never made him unworthy of being here, nor should it have precluded his precious mother from having her four wonderful children. She's only got the equivalent of a 6th grade education, has spent a significant portion of her life "poor" but her children are scholarly and driven and successful people. They've all come a very long way.
You can start poor and not have everything figured out and all your trauma healed and still be a wonderful and loving mother. Parenthood is not only for rich white people who can afford therapy and the perfect life. (which is what a lot of these preachy comments seem to be saying, even if they don't realize it)
It's odd.
The antinatilism sub is wildly misogynist. I'm child free and muted it because it's toxic and gross. Like most child-free spaces on Reddit, it loves to shit on mothers and women in general.
Having kids is fully and completely selfish, just as eating and breathing is. It's a function of being a human and comes from the innate desire to survive and procreate most creatures have. I don't know how far you're going to get trying to avoid any and all selfishness.
Have bio kids if that's what you want to do. Only you can judge what's right and wrong for you.
I don't regret not having biological children, but I don't feel a better or worse person for it. That's my own unique path.
I had never heard of it before today and just took a look in. Just a few minutes of scrolling shows how wildly unhinged it is. Just like any essentially extremist sub!
I’m a big fan of your last sentence here. I really dislike that we’re constantly pressured to rethink and re-evaluate life decisions. Sometimes things just ‘are.’ There could be a different version of you in a different life with kids wondering what it would be like to child-free. Neither choice is right or wrong, just a different path. Wise words.
Whether or not we believe it's selfish, it is the biological reality of our species. I've concluded that "baby fever" is an evolutionary protective mechanism that perpetuates the human species.
To me there's no point do debate whether or not it's selfish because it isn't going to stop. Humans will keep reproducing. But as a mother of two who regrets having children, I will tell you that not everyone finds great purpose or reward in motherhood. Unless you like constantly being selfless and putting the needs of others before your own, or even neglecting some of your needs entirely (which shouldn't be but unfortunately in our society where mothers have little to no support, it happens), don't have children.
The biggest reason i regret having kids is because now i have these two tiny humans who i never want to experience any kind of hardship or pain yet we live in a world full of it. I can't protect them from everything.
I pretty much was a self-aware depressed addict since I started having a period. I decided that it would be selfish for me to have kids so I vowed never to have them. I got sober and treated for my mental health at 32. Now I'm pushing 40 and I want to have a child for the first time. It may or may not happen at this point. And I'm okay with that. At least I trust myself to be a good parent should it happen.
Feminism means having all available choices open to you, and being empowered to choose what you want. As a parent myself, it’s an amazing experience. It is also not easy. I’d take the not easy any day to have all the amazing. Many of my friends have no intention of ever having kids and I 100% support them. My kid just has more adult figures in his life to show him you can do what you want.
I’d just like to put my appreciation here for everyone with a uterus having this safe space to express themselves and their opinions and experiences.
Imo I don’t think it’s selfish to want. Following through with it and not taking your environment into deep consideration can be. Having and raising a child is often glamorized and seems to highlight only the positives. Coming from someone who’s experienced heart wrenching child birth loss, knowing what could go wrong is a burden. I wish someone had brought to my attention the reality of pain with having a kid. I love being a parent, it’s a love that you can’t really explain. With every positive experience you may want with having a child, keep yourself grounded with considering the negative as well. I would suggest journaling for a while and allow yourself to imagine everything as a parent you can, even if it’s not one you want. Your life, your body emotionally and physically, mental health and relationships will change forever, for the good and bad. It’s not an overnight decision but you’ll know when you’ve come to one! Trust your body, put your body first and appreciate whatever the universe brings to you with your decision when it’s time.
It is amazing that this sub is full of people with so many viewpoints that are all kind and understanding, it's a really good place for minorities to feel safe in, it's lovely
I have had two abortions and am consistently on birth control, have an appointment to get my tubes tied in April.
Everyone’s life is different. Saying that a person is selfish for wanting a child or not wanting a child is not productive either way. It’s an incredibly personal choice that involves taking MANY things into account.
I’m not an antinatalist by any stretch of the imagination but I won’t have kids. It’s a part of my gender identity, and the fact that continuing with the lifestyle I have is not kid-friendly and I have no desire to change said lifestyle.
Consider all the possibilities that could happen like if your kid ended up having a big learning/mental disability. If you could still imagine wanting/loving them, and not seeing them as a burden then sure go ahead if you want to As long as you see it as a life long commitment, not just something to show off or just because that's what people do.
My views:
Having children is literally what we biologically exist for (not that reproducing should be expected of everyone, of course). Reproducing is a base desire and instinct. It's not wrong, and it's no more selfish than breathing or accepting a job opportunity. It's a part of life.
Yes, the world is shit, but that's literally always been the case since the dawn of time, and humans have always made babies regardless. Whether the threats we pit our future children against are apex predators, uncontrolled disease, harsh weather, war, shitty political climates, or global warming, I just don't think it makes sense to call having kids selfish. Life is a gift, and with the bad comes so much good. If the idea of having a kid (or more) makes you happy, then imagine your future kid(s) excitedly showing you a drawing they think you'll be proud of or giving you a hug, because you'll be giving them just as much love and happiness as they give you.
Besides, the fact that you're asking this sort of question already says to me that you'll be a conscientious, intelligent parent, which is a lot more than a lot of children get. Do what feels right, and for your mental health, consider staying away from antinatalist media.
Few people’s main reason for procreating is “to continue the species/genetic line” though.
That’s the base desire and instinct.
Instead we see:
I want to have a kid because Im lonely or bored and/or want someone to love me.
I want to have a kid to save this relationship.
I want to have a kid to keep the other parent stuck with me.
I want to have a kid because it is what my family expects of me.
I want to have a kid so that someone will be obligated to take care of me in old age.
I want to have a kid because it will look good for my career/image.
I want to have a kid because I want them to continue the family business.
I want to have a kid because I can dress them up in cute clothes and they will be a fantastic accessory for me.
I want to have a kid because I can put them in pageants and on TV and YouTube and they can make me money and fame.
I want to have a kid because my religion demands it.
I want to have a kid because it will make me eligible for more government assistance.
I want to have a kid because I want to mold them into the perfect human being.
I want, I want, I want.
It seems like a lot of people don’t consider that ‘having a kid’ really means ‘sprouting and nurturing a person with their own hopes, dreams, needs, and problems that might not align or may even be opposite to yours.’
A person that might be born with or develop very difficult challenges, might hate you or hurt you, or others, might die before you.
Someone who still wants to have a kid in full knowledge of all that, in the hopes of continuing the species in a positive way, is unselfish.
But I think a lot of people are not that.
God I just agree so much with this. If we as people have got to a point where we are judged as selfish for wanting to have a child, we have literally failed as a species. I want no part of that.
So first of all I have to say that one year in my Reddit Recap the three subs it recommended to me were r/antinatalism, r/TFABlineporn, and r/airpods and I'm still laughing at how completely unhinged that combination is
Anyway I'm pregnant, due next month and like any thinking person I'm worried about the state of the world, climate change, etc. so I've thought about this a fair bit. The best thing someone said to me about the dilemma of having kids in a messed up world is that the choice of whether to have children is not a consumer choice. It's much deeper than that and cuts much closer to the core of who we are. People who say it's selfish from a climate standpoint want to act like it's equivalent to choosing whether to install rooftop solar or drive an electric car. To me it's an act of hope. Depending on what specifically is making you feel guilty that may or may not address your concerns, but I do recommend hiding updates from that sub.
I wish I could find this video to link but since I can’t I will hopefully do a decent job summarizing it. The video interviews an indigenous woman on her feelings about having children despite climate change and all it can bring.
Her answer echoed a bit of what you said about it being both an act of hope as well as an act of resistance. Resistance because of how it countered the historical genocide against native people and hopeful because she believed if our earth is in that much danger it needs caretakers to continue stewardship of the land. Humans being a destructive force to earth is a very western, colonial idea - we can be stewards and we can create positive outcomes. We as humans caused these issues and with a concerted effort we can also help remedy those same issues - children can help to continue this work generationally.
Not saying anyone should have kids or shouldn’t, I believe it is an individual choice just thought it was a perspective I don’t often hear in this day and age of climate catastrophizing.
Yes!!! Thank you so much for saying this, it's the perfect addition to what I was trying to say and Braiding Sweetgrass changed my entire outlook on the environment and our relationship to nature. This does get into some sticky territory because as a non-indigenous person I am also a settler having babies on native land, and of course I'm caught up in all the same systems as everyone else that cause us to do harm, but I do not believe humans are inherently harmful to the earth.
I'm a childfree person, but I've had to leave all the childfree/antinatalist subreddits. Those spaces had become very hostile spaces, with people often praising themselves about how great they are for not wanting kids, how they're saving the planet by not having them, and how "the breeders" are absolutely awful because according to them they are destroying the planet/ narcissists who want a mini me doll/ selfish people looking to breed a retirement plan. It's a circlejerk, tbh, don't pay attention to those spaces. If you want to decide whether you want to have kids, look at the people you know who are raising them in you area. Try to see if you can get them to answer a few honest questions. Don't look at reddit.
If you've taken the time to look through the antinatalism sub, then you know the potential suffering and world you'd be bringing your child into or the effects you're supporting on our planet. There's no need to harp on about that, there's a lot of philosophy siding on either direction and if you don't agree don't feel guilty by that aspect.
The questions you need to ask yourself should instead be how good of a parent you can be and whether you're truly ready to *support an entirely new human for themself as an independent being*. Don't raise a kid "to learn about yourself" or whatever growth you think you'll get out of it. Don't raise a kid to "continue your legacy". Especially dont raise a kid to try and force a way to be supported in old age (they don't owe you).
- Can you support a kid who from inception to adulthood gives you no love and may even *hate* you? So many people go into this acting like they'll get a little love fountain, this is a small person with their own feelings.
- Can you support a kid who through mental or physical disabilities will be an dependent for their entire life? Can you handle the finances and energy this will require?
- Can you support a kid in the current political climate (assuming US) that may need you to completely uproot and move states due to laws?
- Have you done the work to get through your own traumas, both separate and generational? Do you have your mental health under control in a way that won't harm your kid?
- If you end up suffering from post partum depression or psychosis, is there a support system ready that will keep your kid cared for? If you're not the person giving birth, are you prepared to support both a baby and a partner?
- Are you prepared to raise your kid as a single parent if something happens to the other parent?
Those are a *very few* amount of the questions you need to consider about becoming a parent. It may be a selfish choice to be one (which isn't always bad), but you need to be ready to be *entirely* unselfish past that, for your life.
excellent answer; the comments saying, “do whatever you want, justify nothing!” sound well-meaning, but IMO, there needs to be at least some thought and awareness before plunging into parenthood.
it’s not wrong to think about the reality of it, and if the downsides are also what you want (because there will be hard times). it’s not bad to really think about why you want to become a parent, and whether or not that’s a good idea.
it’s a big, life-changing decision for multiple people, so yeah, it should involve planning, consideration, and thought. along with the other reasons mentioned in this thread, it might be a red flag if you want kids just to be the parent you never had; this is also an expectation that is wholly about you and your baggage, for example, and not really something that a new person should be produced and made to carry.
it’s not the exact same thing, but maybe at least trying babysitting would be useful when faced with a question like this. actually being around kids and being their caretaker, like a brief test run. or, being mindful of how you feel about kids in public.
what’s your instinct when a kid is having a meltdown in public, for example? how does it make you feel, or want to act? are you really ready for that degree of poop and bodily fluids? and so on.
I’m childfree for a lot of reasons. But one of them is how unsafe the world is for children right now.
The world is being devastated environmentally because politicians aren’t putting any barriers up against corporations. The environment is dying and “natural” disasters are becoming more prevalent…most preventable if we had proper protections in place environmentally.
Also, living in the US, kids are being killed every day in school shootings. They’re living in a state of constant fear and anxiety…I just personally think it’s cruel to bring children into a world where that’s their reality. I saw an article about how a freshman in college just lived through her 2nd school shooting in her life. As someone who has ptsd, I deeply personally understand the impact two traumatic events like that can have on the rest of your life…
I know people have always had kids through bad times, through wars. But for me, I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t bring a child into this world and watch them everyday as they fearfully get ready for school, watch them as they struggle with a lack of natural resources, watch them as they struggle to clean up the messes of older generations that everyone else has failed to resolve.
This is just my perspective on what you asked about. Only you know your decision. Realistically, there are very real consequences to having a child in our time today. And I’m not making a judgement on you either way. You have to decide if you can live with whatever consequences naturally result from the action.
Everything everyone has said is pretty good. I had to stop reading anti natalism. And my child bearing days are over. Some stuff is funny a tiny bit is thought provoking but i found a lot is just negative or mean and I don’t need that vibe
My husband and I are childfree, and a big part of that is I want to save resources for the kids who are really wanted. I love seeing parents who really wanted kids interact with them and care for them.
If you’re called to motherhood, please go for it without any guilt or shame!
IMHO, having a child *should* be a selfish decision. As in *wanting* a child is the only valid reason to intentionally have one.
You shouldn’t have a child because you think they’re going to make the world a better place, because your country’s population is dwindling, because you want someone to look after you in old age, because it’s important to your family, because your partner wants one, because it’s expected, etc. You should only have one because you want one and are prepared to give them the best life you can.
Of course, there are considerations, like can you afford a kid, can you give them what they need emotionally, etc. But ultimately, it starts with wanting one.
Once the kid is here, you have to switch to selfless mode, but that’s a whole other ball of wax.
The fact that you are asking this questions suggests you are not being selfish.
I think the issue is more that most people have children as a default - they assume it's just what adults do. Mindfully having children is a whole different thing.
I personally know too many people who did not want children, but had them for their partner, or their parents or whatever. And that's really problematic.
I have biological children because it’s all I’ve ever wanted in life, and I knew I would be a good parent to them. Their father is also a good parent. It was important to us to raise humans with our values… because these crazy Christian fundamentalists are having a crap ton of kids, and I don’t want their offspring to be the world majority in two generations.
If you feel called to have a child, I believe you should listen ❤️
Another way to look at it is to say that your intuition is guiding you to have a child.
There are many reasons not to have kids right now but just as many arguments for.
If you’re worried about this, I think you’ll make a solid parent.
-a 47f, childless but pseudo-co-parenting to scratch that mothering itch.
Most things you do will be inherently selfish.
You want a nice house, a reliable car, a pet, delicious dinner, new clothes, a haircut… most choices are self serving in some way. I mean, even if I choose to volunteer, I like how it feels to volunteer and support organizations that match my beliefs. I even get a kick out of buying $20 extra worth of groceries to put in the donation box on the way out!
The heart wants what the heart wants. If you want to have biological children, raise them in love, and be part of influencing the next generation of humans - do it.
There is no shame in choosing to have a child, and you shouldn’t be made to feel bad for that choice. My kid brings me joy and love. Even mundane things are made greater because he is there with me. 🤷♀️
Antinatalism subs are a place where people who never ever ever want children and can’t understand why we do gather to talk about their feelings. It’s hard to hear your own thoughts about it when you’re consuming media that says having children=bad. (Then again, some mom subs are like this too, and they have kids!)
If you want kids, great. Don’t feel bad about going with your gut feeling.
If you don’t want kids, great. Don’t feel bad about going with your gut feeling.
no but you have to want everything that could come with kids, disability or injury could mean you’re taking care of them forever and if you’re not prepared for that please don’t. also we never think about how some people are a net positive for the world, the child you have could solve a problem we’re facing and save us all, or could just be a regular person lol. I had children, i wanted them so badly, i feel bad sometimes because we’re overpopulated but when I look at them I know I made the right choice.
I do think having a child is selfish, but that’s about me not you. We do selfish things all the time. I think one of the most valuable results of feminism is the ability for women to chose the life they want. I don’t want children, you do, it’s all good.
The antinatalism sub should be renamed r / ableism for how frequently they use disability as some kind of horror story and view disabled people who have children with a lens that is just a hair’s breadth away from eugenics. Folks like that don’t deserve to have an opinion about what you do with your life.
I was just about to write a similar comment. The eugenics and ableism really turned me away from the sub. At first, I thought I agreed with their views, but then I read so many discriminating and stigmatising comments about mental health. Of course my adhd and anxiety are things that I would be very mindful of if I were to have children, but only because I’d want them to have the right treatment and accommodations from an early age.
Part of the reason mine is harder to manage is because I was a late diagnosis. I didn’t grow up with any support or guidance to help me manage the way my brain works so I just had to figure things out for myself. So sometimes that means I have some unfavourable habits or coping mechanisms. But who doesn’t ?
It can be debilitating, and of course there are people who cannot manage their symptoms or overcome them. But it solves nothing to just suggest that no one with ADHD should be born because that’s never going to happen. Instead, we should be more inclusive as a society so that something like ADHD doesn’t have to be so debilitating on a systemic level.
Most people who want children don’t think it through all the way before leaping in. The financial burden is real. If you don’t have someone willing to constantly babysit your child (like a grandparent) the cost of child care can take up most of your income. Look into the cost of child care, talk to parents who use child care about their experiences with it.
Also consider that once you have a child, the focus of your life is no longer you. It is the child. If you have hobbies you love, and recreational things you like to do, it’s very likely they those will be purged completely out of your life after you are a parent.
Furthermore, parenthood is totally exhausting. Especially the infant years. Consider living your life with no sleep. Even with help, there is no time off from the job of parenting.
It's a funny thing. I personally think it's one of the most selfish thing you can do. After all, what other reason is there to have children ? You create a whole life, an entire being, just because you yourself want to. At the same time, I think being a good parent requires an infinite amount of selflessness. Maybe that's why there are so few good parents. But if you're thinking about all this, hopefully you'd be one !
As someone who never ever wants children hates them being pushed onto me and does make that a part of my personality... Please just ignore antinatalism sub.
They are people so insecure about their decision that they can only be angry at everyone else.
I don’t like to label people as selfish. But I do think it’s important to consider what it actually means to have a child…
It means more pollution will be made to supply your child with energy, more animals must die to feed them meat, more land must be cleared to grow crops for them, more water must be extracted and filtered for them…
Not to mention, what kinda of world will your child experience? Do you plan to live somewhere less impacted by the climate crisis? By 2030 there will be a lot of migration away from coastal states in America.
So I think you have to debate if it’s actually worth it and if it’s fair to your future child.
I think the world could use more kids raised by thoughtful people like yourself who take the time to ask these questions and who clearly care about the ethical ramifications of their actions. It’s definitely true that you can’t control the type of person your kid will turn out to be, but these days we have so many resources available to help us raise children thoughtfully. I see many people now who listen to toddler psychology and who work hard to break the chains of harmful patterns that were inflicted on them in their own upbringing, and it gives me hope that the generations we raise will be more caring and kind and sympathetic than any beforehand.
But full disclosure, I’m giving birth soon, so I need to be optimistic right now.
The best thing about true intersectional feminism is that it means as women we get more choices instead of fewer. Not that children are bad, career good, or that only some women should get to have children. The problem in the US is that it’s more dangerous for BIPOC women (esp Black women) to have kids, and it’s harder for economically disadvantaged women to have kids and be supported. If you have a community that makes it possible for you to have and raise a child, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.
I mean most human desires are selfish in some way. You want a child, and they don't exist yet so if we're being pedantic then it's selfish. Doesn't mean it's bad, though, so long as you're committed to raising, loving, and accepting them and aren't using them as a means to an end.
If you’re going into it for the right reasons of wanting to nurture and raise a kind, productive member of society, I don’t think so.
If you’re doing it only because it’s what you think is expected of you, then I’d say yes.
The one thing that all of your direct ancestors had, through all of the extinction events, back to the beginning of live birth, they all had children.
It's natural, it's a core driver of life.
Given the arc of civilization and your own place in it, it may not be practical... Selfish though?
No, I don't think so, probably not anyways.
No. The antinatalism sub, afaik, is full of… well, they aren’t feminists. It attracts women who want to talk with other women who don’t want kids, and then they figure out who all is there and run away.
I don't think it's selfish, provided you love them and raise them right, which you're obviously planning to do, given the fact that you're even asking the question at all. Sounds to me like you would make a good and responsible parent
A lot of comments have already stated great things so I will just say this: that sub is full of incredibly pessimistic people. I’ve spent five minutes on it and have come out feeling so disgusted and disheartened by the opinions held by the people in that sub. Completely ignore it. Avoid it. The people in that sub have a negative ass mindset that is just total bullshit. That entire sub is completely irrelevant.
Do what is right for you. Your body is going to tell you it wants a child at some point. I'm 37 and have never had children. But a few years ago my brother and his wife had a baby girl. I spent a few days with them when she was just under a year and I couldn't believe how much I instantly loved her. I can't imagine how strong that feeling would be if it were my own. When I left and went back home my body wanted a baby so bad it started acting pregnant. My breasts swelled up and my period was late. The urge was strong. But it passed. Still though, I'll always wonder.
Just from a self care on social media perspective: How is the antinatalism sub popping up for you? Is it in reddit, or in emails?
If it's in reddit itself, I'm not sure what's going on unless you somehow accidentally subbed to it.
If it's in email, there should be a "hide r/antinatalism" button in the email.
Please take care of your mental health.
Start by muting the antinatalism sub.
Parents vary as much as any subset of people. Some people are selfish, some are not. If you don’t want to be a selfish parent, the power is within you to figure out what that means and how to avoid it.
There is nothing selfish about fulfilling such a simple and human need. I felt a calling to be a parent, other people do not. Both ways are fine.
Here are my two cents as an antinatalist:
I think what most antinatalists dislike about people who want to be parents is how many parents don’t really see their children as future adults, want children for selfish reasons (to take care of them when older or to continue the bloodline), not care about genetic disorders, don’t have the means to take care of the child (imagine not being able to buy the child basic essentials or get them a proper education), and most importantly, act like bringing the child into this world is something the child should be thankful for.
I believe that if a parent is prepared to give the child all they might financially need, loves the child no matter how they turn out (no matter if they stop being part of your religion or are part of the LGBTQ+), is prepared to support the child through their life and not just expect them to be ready by 18, and remember that they (the parent) owe everything to their child for bringing them into this horrible world, then I’d say you aren’t a bad person, and in my opinion you are a good parent it would be beneficial for you to have children, because your children could then be educated and help others in the future.
The reason I believe most antinatalist (like myself) exist is because we see how many bad parents exist and how they ruin not only the lives of their children, but of others because then their bad children are able to hurt good children and make the world worse.
The things antinatalists say are mostly directed to bad parents who lack at least one of the things I stated above. Unfortunately these types of parents are the majority, but that doesn’t mean there might be some good ones out their, and those that are, I believe should have children.
You do not need to justify your desire to procreate. (Anyone who insists that you do is toxic AF).
Remember, a huge component of PRO-CHOICE is the right to make your reproduction decisions for yourself.
You are not selfish.
I have a daughter 15, and son 13. They are wonderful human beings and I have never regretted becoming a mother. The whole world is new in their eyes, and I enjoy re-discovering the joys of life with them. We do art, music, cook, and play games.
They are old enough now to do a few things for themselves, I’m not cleaning up after them as much these days. They can only do 1 sport each, I will not run them around to endless activities. We have two pet rabbits, but I haven’t been keen on them having a lot of pets, since I still do most of the pet chores.
I would never throw shade on someone who doesn’t want kids. I have indeed shortchanged my career and hobbies to raise them, and I completely support those who want to live their life for themselves.
Career, kids, activities, pets, hobbies, household chores, Just don’t try to do it all.
I'm 32. I agree with antinatalists on a lot of their stances and have my own personal reasons for not wanting to procreate myself. You need to be ready to accept a child exactly as they are, accept that your child may be physically/intellectually/emotionally handicapped, have health problems, or even just have an opposing personality to yours. It's a roll of the dice and you can't guarantee a perfectly healthy baby with no complications. You also must consider the risks of pregnancy, not everyone has an easy time with it and there can be serious and lasting medical problems.
My idea is that there are already so many children in need, in foster care, in the streets, and that it would be irresponsible for ME PERSONALLY to create another life when I could open my home and foster an older kid or teenager when I'm secure enough in my housing and finances to do so. They're already here and already suffering, I'd prefer to try and ease that instead of "rolling the dice" on bringing another soul into this world.
This is also my point of view. It doesn't make sense to bring more children into this world when there are already children here who need parents. A lot of problems on the planet are caused by us wanting more and more.
I'm childfree too and would like to see a world where more people consider adoption upfront rather than as a plan b for when they can't have biological children.
It’s not selfish to want to raise a child. You should just do whatever you can to go into parenthood prepared. Start saving up, read advice books on childcare or take a class, discuss it with your SO.
No. When I was in my twenties I wanted kids but health was craptastic and then I learned realize and dreams are two very separate things. Don’t get me wrong, kids are cute and can be fun but I make a better babysitter than a mom. I get to spoil them rotten and then hand them back. To be honest, a dog and/or cat fulfill that maternal instinct just fine.
Honestly it is kind of selfish. Look at the environment, climate change. Look at the political climate. If you have a girl, she is being born with less rights than your grandmother had. Your kids would NEVER own a home. They would work every single day for the rest of their lives just to rent a 1 bed/1 bath forever. Why would anybody want to bring a kid into this world?
I should preface this by saying I don't want kids. I avoid antinatalism they are kinda extremist I see their points, I disagree. I cannot consider anyone suggesting genocide as reasonable.
Having and raising children is one of, if not the most selfless thing you can do. To have a child is to sacrifice your health, wealth and sometimes even your life for another. I cannot think of anything more selfless.
In my opinion, bringing a new soul to this world isn’t something I find responsible.
However, wanting to raise a child is different!
I’d advise to look into other options rather than only biological ones, because many souls already here need help and love
It is selfish, but that's not really the issue, is it? We all do selfish things all the time, we don't buy groceries or read our favorite books out of altruism.
I think the bigger question is whether it is kind and loving to bring a new human into this world right now?
If it was just bullies on social media that kids faced now I’d say good parenting might be enough, but the reality is it’s not unreasonable for kids be anxious about getting shot by the police or other kids at school. We can’t honestly even tell them that working hard and getting a good job will be enough to ensure they can afford the ballooning costs of healthcare, housing, and food. Predatory landlords, increasingly frequent global pandemics, climate disasters, racism/sexism/homophobia, student loans, chronic illness, christian fascism, and a system run fundamentally to ensure that greed from the top goes unchecked are just a few of the realities they’ll face.
For example, what if you have a daughter? How can you guarantee that she'll have bodily autonomy? Is living in a place where rights aren’t currently restricted enough? What if your child needs gender affirming care, will they have reliable access to that? You don’t have to be a constitutional scholar to understand that things will get worse before they get better.
The world has always been difficult and complex for sure, and there are amazing advances in science and technology, but a child who is born now isn't going to live in some advanced, far off, future utopia. They'll go through puberty in 10-15 years from now, if you're in the US that could be just 2-3 administrations away. Will things really be better then?
Some will say that it’s children brought up with love who will solve our problems. But isn’t that a lot to expect from them when they’ll have to fight so hard just to have the same standard of living their parents have? It’s not that we should give up on our world, far from that. We should all use whatever energy and anger we have to make this world a place worth being brought into. Of course it will never be perfect or ideal, but don’t you just feel that it should be so much better than...this? Don’t you think a child you decide to bring here deserve better than this?
I think it’s awesome that you have the extra love and energy to give to someone else. Truly. But why make a new person with needs to be met, when there are so many people here whose suffering would certainly be lessened with the love, effort and kindness you have to spare?
To succumb to the biological urge to procreate is a choice. A child cannot give consent to being born; therefore, choosing to reproduce is a selfish act to fulfill your own need/desires. I am an antinatslist because I believe reproduction is morally wrong, irresponsible, and incredibly selfish. I am not, however, anti-child, anti-woman, nor anti-family. I am anti-suffering, and I am a firm defender of consent in all capacities.
I would say no it isn’t, personally I am child free. Both my husband and myself are snipped. We wanted to ensure it wouldn’t happen under any circumstance, however our decision isn’t for everyone. If you want kids and have the mental and emotional band with to raise them healthy go for it.
You're evil for wanting children. You are evil if you don't. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Either way it's your choice. You don't have to justify what makes you happy to anyone. Live by these few quotes
Find what you love and let it kill you -Charles Bukowski
Sometimes we can only hope to die with the right regrets -arthur miller
Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind -Dr Suess
And make your life one to remember and most importantly one that makes you smile.
If you want a child that's fine
If you don't want a child that's fine too
Your body, your decision
The only thing that's not fine is forcing YOUR beliefs on others, if you want a child, great! But don't expect all your friends to get pregnant around the same time so your child can be friends with theirs.
Anyway hope this helps, remember your body, your choice, and even if you don't have a partner it's still possible for you to have a child
Don't worry, you're a woman, whatever you do will be judged by someone one day... Do not care about the other's opinion, follow your heart, that's the choice you'd regret the least at the end.
The antinatalism sub is awful because they'll treat you like shit for *wanting* to have kids and deign to bring one into the world in its current state, ignoring that everybody's circumstances and desires differ.
My partner and I are strictly child-free, but I don't think it's wrong to want children at all, so long as you can support them properly and aren't using them to *fix* a relationship.
I think there's a BIG difference between the "childfree by choice" crowd in general and antinatalism, which displays a consistently virulent nihilism and hatred for the human race, and likely has a lot of overlap with incel and ecofascist communities.
NO. It is NOT selfish to desire to have babies and raise children and enjoy having a family. At all.
Reproduction is one of the strongest drives for living things. We are animals. It is 100% normal and expected for humans to reproduce. The difference between humans and animals is that we can make a conscious decision to have a baby.
Antinatalism is an extreme nihilistic ideology pretending to be a philosophy that is essentially calling for the mass extinction of humans. Do not let this weirdo death cult (that seems to be mainly Reddit based) let you feel weird or guilty about wanting to experience the literal miracle of creating life.
My husband and I waited to have kids until we were financially and emotionally stable, got all our wild oats sewn, and now raising these three tiny people is one of the greatest joys I’ve ever experienced.
The very black and white mindset of the antinatalists has roots in an extremely problematic and not-well-reasoned book. A recent episode of [If Books Could Kill](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-population-bomb/id1651876897?i=1000590263802) gives a quick, funny, pretty brutal analysis. The book in question is The Population Bomb.
That sub is pretty toxic. I hardcore support anyone that wants to be child free, but that sub actively hates anyone with a kid. Who do they think is going to care for them when they’re too old to care for themselves? Who do they think is going to be writing policy when they’re too old to vote? It’s the kids that are being born right now. If you want to have a society, you have to have more people being born.
It’s not selfish at all to want kids.
I was vehement about not wanting a baby, until one day at age 26 I just did. It was in my bones. He is six now, and parenting has hard moments, but its amazing to watch him learn and develop and it feels like a special gift that I was allowed to bring his soul to earth, and there are many great moments of love and joy between us. Motherhood has changed me for the better. Im aware its something that is special and not for everyone. And there are phases that are scary and hard. You'll be forced to reckon with your demons and trauma if you want to do a good job. And things may not go the way you hoped. Reading some other great comments too here, some of us want a child and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. It is very very hard, but for me is worth it.
That sub is full of disturbed, death-centric individuals, quite literally preaching "life for me but not for thee". Really twisted stuff, no reason to compromise your brief and brilliant time on earth with their fucking bullshit.
Wanting to have a biological kid is selfish and egocentric. There’s a difference between wanting to be a parent and wanting to reproduce, it comes mostly from the motivation behind it .
It's not bad for you to want a child, but I think it's wise to get to the root of why you can't look straight at why you want a child before you decide. There's a major internal conflict there directly connected to children and that conduct is going to get worse if you have a child without figuring it out, which can escalate into neglect or other forms of abuse.
It is not selfish, I am a mother to three kind, wonderful & loving children and I adore my role. Make sure you have a good support system if you decide to have children, they say “it takes a village” and though it can be done alone it is certainly better with help. Wishing you the best, blessed be 🖤
I think an empowered, loving, witchy, real life requires a balanced amount of selfishness, balanced with lots of generosity and openness to the world. I think having my one kiddo increases my generosity and openness. My playful, unconditional love for him both helps me be gentler toward others, more connected to a cross-class community of local parents and kids, AND to set better boundaries. I didn’t have second kid for selfish reasons (though it might look unselfish from a climate perspective) — that I wanted to focus on my creative work and career and mental health.
I think we need to care both about the globe AND about ourselves in order to flourish.
It’s the most natural thing in the world to have a child… if you want a child and can support one - please don’t let anyone try to tell you otherwise.
I really think things like this, such personal decisions, should not be crowdsourced. It is not a crime to have a personal desire, no matter what anyone says. I just don’t like seeing these sorts of posts of people feeling guilty for things like this. It shouldn’t exist as everyone has the right to have a child if they want.
Will you strive to protect your child from the things that harmed you growing up?
Will you try to give them a better life?
Will you try to address any generational trauma, so you don’t pass it on?
Will you love them even if they make choices you don’t agree with, so long as they are not harming others?
Is the extinction of the human race really a morally superior stance then continuing to have kids? Raising kids and teaching the next generation can be very rewarding. Part of why I’m hoping to give birth rather than adopt is because I long to see my lost loved ones. If my baby has my mothers hair, or my cousins smile, it will be a beautiful thing I could never get from adoption. Knowing a child’s full medical and family history, knowing what things could have happened during pregnancy and their wee years, it can be helpful.
As an adoptee who absolutely takes after a maternal grandmother who died before I was born and have no actual blood ties to, that's not entirely how I believe it works. Family is family is family.
If you feel you couldn't see an adopted child as your family as much as a biological one, that's part of who you are as a person, not intrinsic to how you have a child.
I'm going to echo this and also mention the "seeing lost loved ones" in the next generation has some serious problems in the line of reasoning. For example, if you are white and your partner is not, and your mixed ethnicity child takes after the parent that is a person of color....would you be disappointed? I think more people should ask themselves questions like this and examine the narrative around genetics because I feel like in our society there's a lot of casual racism and ableism that shows up where you wouldn't expect it, if that makes sense.
I never said that I wouldn’t view an adopted child as part of my family, or less than a biological one. I didn’t imply it either. If we adopt that child will be just as much as loved and cherished - but the odds the children who need families will resemble my family are slim, and I won’t be picking a kid based on looks like some people do. The only criteria we’ll have is we can meet their support needs.
It’s completely your choice. I will say that it’s all I wanted for 10-15 years, it ruled my life. I waited too long, or just wasn’t meant to be, and lost all my pregnancies. I’m on the other side of it now and completely okay with being childfree. I don’t know if I would be at such peace with not being a mother had I not made the space and time I needed in order to at least try. Ultimately, I prefer my sleep and my mental health. The whole journey is what led me to the peace of being okay with it, and if someone had suggested a childfree life to me 8 years ago — I would have cut them off. I love my children, all of them, and there’s a sort of a mercy in knowing that they won’t have to endure this society, or drain the resources of mother earth.
I will not be fostering or adopting, proactively asking to be spared from those suggestions. I’m all for it, was a ward of the state myself, but it’s no longer aligned with my being.
I do think that bringing kids into this world is inherently selfish. That said, I have 3 kids. I think that, since I chose to bring them into this world, I owe them something. I do my best to make sure that they live a happy fulfilling life, and I try to give them the support they need (whatever that looks like). I thinks it's perfectly fine/normal to want a child, but it's important that you recognize that you're doing this for yourself.
So I’m one who very much wants children. It’s been a strong desire for a long time.
I’m personally really excited to see what I learn about myself with a child- what kind of person my partner and I can create and grow.
Our child will have two failing but loving parents- I’m okay with that. It’s more then most, and we’ll help them figure out where we went wrong and grow with them again too.
I think two is where we want to go- my partner doesn’t have a big family and most of my siblings are child free, by choice or otherwise.
Do I think that there’s a point where you can have to many children? Yes. But one? One to learn and to watch develop, to have hardships with and mourn with and watch joys and love?
Nah. That’s not selfish.
Things always seem bad- the sky is always falling. And that sub is trash.
It is not bad to want to love and raise a child. It IS bad if you consider that child a band-aid to pre-existing relationships or emotional issues. Children are to be loved and raised with care and as much wisdom as possible. They aren't pets. They do not exist to make you happy, or to eventually be your therapy human. Most of all, because I've seen this too many damn times (even once is too many), children are not the glue that keeps a partner with you. Don't fucking have children if you think it'll make your partner stay with you. The decision to have a child should be made with all of this information in mind.
And remember you’re raising a PERSON. Dont have a kid to have a KID - most of your life with them will be spent with them as an adult. Theyre a baby for an extremely short period of time.
Yep. If you want to hang out with kids, awesome. Go be a teacher or a daycare worker. If you want to raise a human into adulthood, have a baby. Interestingly, I was a child-free teacher for a long time before I met my step-son, and people kept telling me that because I was a good kindergarten teacher and obviously loved my job, I should have children. Hoooo boy, teaching your kids to read for 6 hours and raising a human who *lives in my house* are not the same thing.
I worked with at risk teens for 5 years, spent a lot of time with them. I loved it! I also loved coming home to my quiet house and fuzzy 4 legged children.
It’s so funny you say that because I have two kids, love them dearly, love being a mom, but _omg do I respect the hell out of teachers_. I always knew I didn’t have the patience to teach, but now having kids I can’t imagine doing that, multiplied by 15, and you don’t even get to keep them!
Not getting to keep them is the best part! You can be patient as hell at noon when you know 3:30 is coming.
A child won’t automatically love you. You have to earn it as a parent. The reasons to have a child are selfish reasons, by their nature, and selfish doesn’t automatically mean bad, either. Having a child is self enriching and difficult. Edit: I know this because I have some empathy for my twin brother who’s raising two wonderful children. I have a vasectomy and will likely never have children
the reasons for doing every single thing a person does are selfish, by human nature
Sure, but most "selfish" things only affect you and your own life. Having a kid is "selfish" in the sense that it primarily affects the life of another human being.
I like your point that is is selfish but selfish isn’t inherently bad. There ARE bad reasons to have a kid. That doesn’t make having a kid an inherently bad decision.
its not bad, its actually a motivation mechanism. even guilt, the baseline motivation for doing something with no tangible benefit to ourselves
I learned in therapy that no emotion is a bad emotion - they’re evolutionarily developed sensory tools. Afraid? It’s because getting to safety keeps you alive. Angry? It’s because anger motivates you to end disadvantageous situations.
This is how my little sister was born. She was an ultimatum baby. I don't fully understand why my dad let it happen, but he's definitely settled for someone who frustrates him and doesn't seem to make his life any easier. I love her, she's been around and like a second mom for me for almost a decade but their relationship feels so strained 90% of the time. My dad's given up on his romantic life and it's depressing as hell. My little sister only adds to both their stress. She was born out of selfishness and I'm worried for how her life is going to be like as Im around less often and her parents are in a near loveless relationship. Mine were divorced when I was about 3, so I didn't go through that. She's already 6 and I'm hoping she grows up to understand she shouldn't be like them and to develop healthy relationships
Agreed. Children are not therapists. They look up to their parents for love and support, not to fix the marriage or emotional problems.
Yes, exactly!!! I'm so glad that this was said, took the words right out of my mouth. I'll also reinforce this comment by saying that, before deciding to have a child, I think that you should work on yourself first before having a child so that they're coming into a stable environment. I've seen a lot of people have kids because they have some sort of trauma and basically desire children to have a re-do/trying to make up for what was missing....but what actually ends up happening is they replicate the same abuses that were done to them, further continuing a cycle of generational trauma. I think it's perfectly fine to have kids, but before doing so, we need to break our generational curses (it ends with us!) So, have kids, but also make sure you're healthy and in a good place. Go to therapy, nurture your relationships, connect with your community, do the shadow work. A child is not a bandaid and/or punching bag, and having a child should not really be abojt you at all, it's about them. We live in an adultist society that treats children as property and it shouldn't be. Children are the most [abused group in our society.](https://youtu.be/6n60TRHQ6Wg) The same applies to romantic partners as well; if you raise a child with someone, make sure the relationship you're in isn't you acting out a [parental rescue fantasy ](https://youtu.be/1XuhxNyhjmc) , and that you are modelling healthy relationships and healthy love to your children. And most importantly, love them! And love them in a genuine, non-objectifying way. 💕💗 Children are a vulnerable population and deserve to be protected and cherished.
>I think that you should work on yourself first before having a child so that they're coming into a stable environment Nothing has made me go "thank goodness I went to therapy" more then having a kid. All the skills I learned in therapy + the few sessions of couples counseling we did pop up constantly as she gets older.
God, this. My daughter is only 15 months but I struggled with PPA and I can't even imagine what things would have been like if I hadn't been in therapy for the last like 15 years. I felt sad that I had to wait til my early 30s to start a family but I now realize that mentally, emotionally, I couldn't have done it any sooner. I've learned so much about myself in the past year or so, not all of it good lol.
Off topic but your username is fantastic, especially as I just took a break from knitting a shoulder warmer and am listening to Dio. \m/
Thanks, I made my username myself! I'm trying to get a project to the blocking mats today. Wishing us both supple wrists and steady focus.
> They do not exist to make you happy, or to eventually be your therapy human. This! If you just want somebody to love you, for fuck's sake get a dog.
Exactly most of the time children especially young children are merciless sycopaths that don't care about your needs none the less wants. Then they will give you the tiniest sliver of affection and its like the sun comes out after weeks of rain. The best quote I ever heard is when you have a baby it's not love you feel right off the bat it's Stockholm syndrome, your brain needs to protect itself from the very real litteral torture of sleep deprivation and noise. The real love comes later as they develop real personalities and begin expressing them in ways you both can communicate ( btw baby sign language rocks my 1 yr 4 mo. old knows 8 signs so much less struggle) If you have any doubt that you don't want your whole entire life to be about the kid from what you watch on TV to never going out again finger sized foods and spending 13% of Your budget on childcare (supposing you can find any) don't have a child no matter who pressures you into. Not your parents and not your partner. Your entire life will change your entire house will multiple times as they develop.
Ummm, pets don't exist to make you happy either. No sentient being should be objectified and treated that way.
Correct. I made two separate statements and did not compare children to pets for that exact reason. Thank you for stating that more strongly, because it is clear that some people do consider children as pets.
As someone with a fucked up situation and who is vehemently childfree, I will come right out and say that it is not inherently selfish to want to have a kid. However, you have to be willing to allow your kid the best life, even if that life isn't what you pictured for them. Doing anything else is selfish. If you kid says they're Trans, support it. If your kid ends up the bully in school, support them through therapy. If your kid wants to be a punk rocker but you hate punk rock, tough titties, you support the punk rocker despite your opinions. Dictating what your child will be and guilting them or micromanaging them is what makes having a kid selfish. Most parents think their kid is their property, and they try to treat their kids as such, which is why their kids grow up going no contact and hating their parents. Many parents had kids because they were under the impression their kids would be forced into servitude for them until they died, which is selfish af. When you have a kid, the way to be unselfish about that is to give your child the space and respect to become the best version of themselves. Even if it was not how you imagined them to be. You re there to teach them to handle the world, not to guilt them into worshipping and serving you. And because this is a witchy sub, I wanna add one more thing. I know a woman who mentioned to me that she wants to have a child to invoke some old magic. Personally, I think that's selfish, but admittedly, I didn't ask what magic, so maybe not; i never got the details (mostly because if i had asked i dont think shed have offered them anyway as she never discusses her magic). But from my perspective, having a child for any reason other than to give another human being a chance to live on earth is selfish. Your kid is not a tool or way to get anything for yourself; if there is any reason whatsoever that you want to have a kid that relates back to your benefitting, sit with it and make sure you work it out yourself FIRST. The only non selfish reason to have a kid is to give someone the chance and tools and knowledge to experience this world.
Well said. Wanting to give a new human a chance to live on this earth and helping them grow is a beautiful thing. Wanting a child to make a mini me is selfish.
With the way thing are headed right now environmentally i cant help but feel giving them a chance on life ob earth is very selfish on its own.
not to mention being born into a system that uses you for the labor you can produce. not a good time to be human. giving it a 4/10
That's my personal opinion as well, but I left my personal opinions mostly out.
My favorite response. I just had a baby and I went through it with a family that wanted me to be crammed in to their mold. So I have stressed a lot about just wanting my child to be the best version of themselves possible and not interfering with that. I really appreciate how you worded this!
It’s fine to want child/children. It’s fine to not want a child/children. You don’t need to justify wanting to have a child, but you should have the resources to emotionally, physically, spiritually and financially provide for one. You have to be willing to shelve your own interests until they grow up. You have to be willing to always put them first and to accept that you may be supporting them far into their adulthood. If that all sounds like a worthy sacrifice with no hesitations then that’s fine. Some people will be parents, some won’t.
Just add to that, some will be parents, when they shouldn't have been. It's horrific how many parents treat their children like slaves or try to force them to become a version of themselves. There are entire subreddits dedicated to horrible parents. It requires an amount of education, understanding and compassion that so many parents lack. Edit: To add that also, if you wouldn't be able to love and support a child who is gay, trans, is or becomes disabled or has learning difficulties, additional needs or mental illness, do not have them.
I could not agree more
I would have said all of these exact words. I’m always surprised at allllll the young women who are surprised at how HARD it is to raise kids. It’s exhausting. It’s sacrifice. It’s expensive. It can be isolating. But of course there are a lot of upsides. Only you can say if it is the right journey for you.
Even just carrying, then birthing the child can be exhausting, painful, humiliating, dangerous, sometimes scarring etc etc... like, people do not talk enough about the hardships of pregnancy + childbirth + motherhood.
> You have to be willing to shelve your own interests until they grow up This really isn't a healthy mindset to have. Yes you need to understand that you'll have some less time and such but fully sacrificing everything about yourself for your kid isn't healthy for you or for the kid.
Thank you for saying this - it's no wonder women struggle with identify following motherhood. You don't need to sacrifice everything, you still matter as an individual.
People get really weird about it (I also think a huge part of it is a seriously large number of frankly useless partners once you have the baby). A lot of it obviously depends on your own kid's temperament once they are born but past the initial 4 month all hands on deck newborn phase where it's just a blur of eating, pooping and sleeping you do start getting some time back to just kinda be "you" again. Like I keep seeing posts from people about not having any time to shower/eat/use the bathroom during the newborn phase and I'm just thinking unless you are a single parent those should all be doable things (and even as a single parent your newborn won't explode if you put them in a baby bouncer for 5 min so you can shower, crying for 5 min won't kill them) I don't ever want to put the pressure on my daughter of her being literally the only thing in my life. She needs to know that Mommy's wants and interests matter too in order to not be a horrible tyrant creature when she gets older.
Yup. I really do wish my mom spent more time doing fun things with me rather than scolding me to study 24/7 and giving up her own identity in order to supervise my studies all the time. She's in her 50s now and she's chilled out, I like spending time with her a lot more this way.
But you do sacrifice most things. You end up picking one or two things if you you are a single mother and that's it. I kept practicing with my coven with how smart my toddler is and her need for constant supervision . (In 3 day she figured out 4 ways to defeat the baby gate including moving rather heavey furniture) I cannot leave her alone for any amount of time. Then the lack of childcare or a village to help. My father had his parents brothers cousins and aunts. In 3 mo. Iv had yet to have an hour off despite asking brother and father and friends.
I'm sorry to hear about your situation, it certainly does take a village to raise a child and I can only imagine how hard it is to be a single parent. I hope it gets easier for you as your toddler grows, and you are able to have more free time to devote to your hobbies and interests. Keep asking your family for help and tell them that you're really struggling, I hope they pull through for you!
I was going to comment this too. Kids can enjoy interests with you. My 2 year old bakes with me multiple times a week. We paint together, hike together and play basketball. Of course it’s a little modified but I love sharing my interests with her. She will be ready for board games soon and I can’t wait.
>She will be ready for board games soon and I can’t wait. Ha, this is what we are waiting for too! I think we've got at least another 2 years if I am being super optimistic. Heck my 1 year old loves hiking with me though, she just hangs out in the carrier looking at stuff. She actually even enjoys cooking with me (right now it's just standing in the toddler tower and banging measuring cups together while I narrate like Julia Child but she enjoys it). Edit: Forgot we took my daughter to fiber festival a few weeks ago and she loved it. Got to look at all the colorful yarn, pet a bunny, squished fiber in her hands and everyone told her she was adorable.
You’re right and I probably didn’t word it very well - I suppose I meant that if you have quite intensive hobbies or interests that take up a lot of time, they might have to take a back seat for a while. I’ve seen that in close friends once they’ve had children and I’d say it was a loss of time rather than identity if that makes sense? But you make a fair point, so thanks.
I think Reddit has a lot of communities or users who are quick to make things “selfish.” I understand what OP is saying here, and I’ve considered posting similar questions along the lines of “what is an UNselfish reason to have a child” bc it seems like with those users there is no answer. I want to raise a family. I’ve wanted to raise kids since I WAS a kid. I saw myself as being a parent someday far longer than I imagined I’d ever fall in love or partner up. Sometimes it is in you. Sometimes it isn’t. That’s hard to explain on both sides when you’re speaking to someone who has already decided you’re in the wrong.
I agree with you that having kids is selfish. But if that's what you want (in this context) it's OK. Just make sure you do right by them. They are their own person with feelings, opinions, and rights.
So, I am not super up on the antinatalism community, but I do share some of their ideas that our population, globally, probably needs to go down, or at least stop going up. That's just basic math. It is also true that the population IS going down in developed, richer countries that have more social security, better rights and opportunities for women, better health care and family planning options, and better quality of life over all, and that it is going up in countries that are not as developed, with not as much money, equality, or social security. I think that means it's pretty clear what has to happen to have population go down, and it's not attacking individual people for wanting to have a baby - which is a perfectly natural thing for a person to want (it is also perfectly natural for a person to not want it). If you, as an individual, want a baby, then you, as an individual, are not contributing to overpopulation globally ALL BY YOURSELF. We don't solve this problem by taking away individual rights or making individual people miserable (whether you want or don't want a baby, getting the opposite is going to be miserable). It's like climate change - we need governments to make laws that stop 400 private jets flying away from the super bowl and corporations from spilling toxins into the sky, and instead we're shaming individuals for not composting on their balcony or buying the food they can afford for their family even though it's wrapped in plastic. If antinatalists want the population to go down, they should be working towards a more egalitarian world where the people in countries that have population explosion have what they need to have the quality of life, healthcare, employment opportunities (in many places it is still in a woman's best interests to provide children for a family for economic security), and a declining birth rate. But it's a fuck of a lot easier to make you, an individual, feel like garbage and consider sacrificing your happiness, and then pat themselves on the back for a job well done.
This is so eloquently well put!
This is exactly the same as shaming individuals for not recycling well enough or taking showers when corporations are polluting or using water for large scale for profit farming.
I agree so much with this. I also believe a much bigger impact on population growth can be attained by supporting people who don't want children than by shaming people who do. My personal goal for the world is for all children to be wanted and cherished. The only pressure to have a child should come from within one's soul. Not having that just means it's not the right choice for you.
This is a fantastic response. The antinatalist community truly does focus on the individual and tries to shame a person into not having children because reason. The reasons are usually around climate change and/or overpopulation, which was wisely addressed above; or the antinatalist contributor's own sense of suffering in the world (projection), which must necessarily be addressed by that person, not the individual who wants to have a child. I think OP, have a child if you want one. My daughter recently became a parent, and that little one is being raised by adoring, mature, responsible parents and grandparents. I am bursting with love and pride for these parents, and the baby is my world. Does this sound like a mistake to you?!!!!🌹
I have never heard of the antenatalism sub before and a little of what you've said here about it makes me afraid that there's some eugenics ideology involved, since that typically goes with wanting to lower the global population
The sub is a horrible representation of only the most superficial and worst interpretation of the philosophy behind antinatalism. If you want to get a better understanding of it, and how it is rooted in empathy, I would recommend the writings of David Benatar or Théophile de Giraud. I don't agree with antinatalism, for logical and for spiritual reasons, but I think the idea as such comes from a good place - most of the time - and is another valid try to grapple with our flawed existence. Not that sub here though, that's just a horrible place full of very hurt people. Don't go there.
There is ABSOLUTELY eugenics involved. I believe governments should create an egalitarian society where people don't need to have children to be economically secure (either because they need the labour or because if they don't provide babies they won't have a home) and where family planning is part of an equal and well funded health care system. If you provide that, people will self select for having babies or not. We are seeing that with declining birth rates in the developed nations. Declining birth rates are not the only, or even driving, force for needing that egalitarian society. No eugenics there! Some antinatalists believe that, rather than providing the conditions for healthy self-selection, somebody should be making the selection for people. Example: "Some people with disabilities suffer. Therefore, people with disabilities shouldn't reproduce." Or, "People who are poor have a difficult time providing a life free of suffering for their children. Therefore, people living in poverty shouldn't reproduce." There are OBVIOUS ways to alleviate that suffering that do not involve telling whole groups of people not to reproduce, but I have seen both of those arguments made by antinatalists. So yeah, your worry that antinatalists are in bed with eugenics is WELL FUCKING FOUNDED.
Yeah. Ultimately, who is going to decide who does and doesn’t have the children, exactly? And although I share similar ethical concerns in the sense that *I personally* would not feel right having biological children and bringing more children into a broken world… I cannot stand that subreddit and its general outlook. Some of the posts drip with vitriol towards mothers. Just why? I totally understand wanting our society to examine why we seem to think having children is “just what you do,” and I understand wanting us as humans to start fixing our issues before bringing tons more children in the world. But to shame individual mothers and their children for existing is way too far. The whole thing gives me an icky feeling I can’t properly articulate.
Somehow, it's never vitriol towards fathers, is it?
There's a definite subset of eugenics.(the antinatalism sub is also going through a breakup ATM because of these and other bigoted sentiments) A lot of us, myself included are very anti eugenics, but it's a well established thing that eugenics parrots our ideas but only to cover their asses. As in "it's not right to bring a child into a world/ life of suffering" being an excuse to kill kids rather than inspiration to improve society. The key imo to suss out true antinatalism is in it's equality. Either it's amoral to have kids or it's not. It's not a matter of which kids deserve to live, but that no child deserves to be forced into a life they didn't consent to, only to suffer.
This right here is the perfect answer. Sage advice ⬆️⬆️⬆️
So very well put and so on point about it being easier for some to pick on one person for wanting a child than it is to try to solve the larger sources of the problem.
I have two kids, and the antinatalism sub always pops up for me. Maybe because I laugh at people’s jokes about how horrific little kids are??? IDK. Anyway, I had mine at 38 and 40, because I started to feel “maternal” very late in life (like early 30’s, I guess), and I knew I wanted to be with the right person. When I met my partner, it clicked. I knew it was right. It took a long time, and only happened when I seriously began looking into adoption via foster care. Then the second one happened with zero trying. I did a lot of intention, meditation, etc in preparation. I had a crappy childhood. I didn’t want to have kids for the wrong reasons. Within that process, I really did some internal work, and I do believe it really helped my perspective. My kids are wholly autonomous little humans. They are not mine to mold, but my responsibility to guide. So far, they’re turning out pretty well (3 year old is still up in the air, they’re a total terror, but I’m told they’re very normal).
I told my husband that I would look at being a mom as a 24/7 job I chose. I’m excited to have that job, I want to love my children, but those kids are their own people and my actual job is to guide and and support them to the best of my ability. The goal is independence from us. Success is them leaving and living their own lives. You have such short, precious time with them.
I also laugh at people's jokes about how horrific little kids are. Mine is 5.5 and she's so cool now. I'm very happy to have my autonomous human to guide. 😊 I became a Mama at 34! But it was the right time for me too. I really enjoy my kiddo and I always want people to know that having kids is hard, sure, but it's also freakin awesome sometimes! I had and have a SHITTY mom and I wasn't sure I wanted a kid. I wasn't maternal. But now I'm having a really actually good time!
Are you maybe experiencing shame from that subreddit not guilt? It took me a while to learn the difference. Guilt is when you do something bad and regret it. Shame is thinking that you are bad, unworthy, broken, etc. People will spew their opinions about everything onto anyone who will listen. It’s up to you how much you will let it effect how you live your life. Your question makes me thing if Lilith in Eden wanting to have her own children. She didn’t need a reason, she didn’t need to wait for “god” to give her permission, she wanted something she had the power of achieving so she did the most bad ass thing possible. She did what she wanted. Women are conditioned to think meeting our own desires or needs is selfish and it’s a bunch of crap to hold you back from your own potential. Do what makes you happy. Fuck other people’s projected opinions. Make this life what you want it to be.
I think you are making a very good point here. It's probably shame coming from other women. There is often a twisted misogyny around motherhood and some women who don't want kids really lean into that and perpetuate it.
Doctors told my mom not to breastfeed. We all turned out great. But holy shit do people have opinions on other peoples lives! The stories she’s told. So yeah, fuck what that subreddit thinks. Block that subreddit if you have to.
This all the way.
As a childfree person, I think it is great when a person wants to have a child to love and raise, and they really want to be a parent. I do not approve of people that bring a child to the world for other reasons, like “fixing” a marriage, against their will and to please the family/partner, out of pressure etc
Ultimately, it is your choice. This is what I fight for when it comes to human rights - the right to choose. Do your research on how to support a growing child and you will be already better than most parents out there. Whatever you do or don't someone will be upset, the choice is only yours.
This is my personal view, and I don't judge either way. It's selfish in all the right ways. It's a biological function many people have, and it's one that many don't. I have had the chance to have biological kids before and always passed on the idea. My reason is because I feel like a lot of people only think of themselves as a single entity, but we aren't. There are over 7 billion humans on earth. Many who are kids that need a home. I also feel like, as humans, we have a very short memory that focuses on our recent history. Humans first appeared roughly 2 million years ago. That means in those 2 million years, it took us to 1950 to hit 2.5 billion in population and only 70 years to grow past 7 billion. That is obscenely out of balance with nature and isn't sustainable in any way, shape, or form. I have taken in 3 kids who were abandoned by their family because they are part of the LGBT+ community. They only stayed with me for a few years max, and they are now in college and thriving. I love my kids more than I could ever put into words. Regardless of how you want to have kids, there are a few things I recommend. 1. Be financially stable. It takes a lot of money, not just to have a kid but to also provide an enriching life. School, books, sports, and all other forms of activity that enrich children are expensive af! 2. Have a safe environment. Stable home life isn't just loving your kid. It's making sure they have healthy food and plenty of it, teenagers devour a lot of food! Do you have a support system? Are you able to accept your kid if they are part of the LGBT+ community? There are a lot of factors that go into having a safe environment. 3. Resolve your trauma and go to therapy so you don't pass it on. We all have trauma and things to grow beyond. Can you handle the stress of raising human without traumatizing them? 4. Kids are not a solution to anything. They won't fix a relationship. They won't "complete" you. If you have a kid without seeing them as an individual human being and not a small you, then you've already defined and judged what this person is without ever meeting them. 5. Know yourself, how do you help a child grow and figure out who they want to be if you don't know yourself already? All that being said... no one is perfect, and I don't expect any parent to be perfect. Humans are deeply emotional and flawed creatures. Being aware of what it takes, though, is a good start. Good luck with whatever way you want to have kids, and never forget you always have support here.
100% your choice. Own it and don’t worry about what anyone else thinks. My experience & 2 cents is having a grown child with multiple severe mental health issues is had I known the suffering he was going to go through I wouldn’t have had him. Lots of parents regret having kids and society glamorizes it out of need for future workers. No one tells you the truth. You don’t find out until you have them. And once you choose to bring them into existence your obligation to them never ends, especially if they have disabilities. It’s up to you to make their life as free of suffering as possible because you are the reason they are here experiencing it.
As a person who has surgically reenforced being child free, I say this... If you are having children or a child because you think your genes are special, you want someone to love you and take care of you when your old... Then you reason for having children is likely selfish. If you have no idea why you want children but feel driven towards it then you might want to reach deeper than that before you have them. Women's value in patriarchy is deeply programmed as your reproduction on top of just normal bio programming. If you are willing to prepare that person you're making for a world on the track our planet is on. If willing to love them and do the hard selfless work it takes to be a parent in the effort of raising one that might be able to cooperate in difficult times. Then by all means, add a human.
Yeah reckoning with the state of the wild right now is a big one: My friends all have kids and only one has really prepared their children for the reality of late-stage capitalism and environmental loss. Not in a survivalist/bunker way but in terms of the skills they need to know, teaching them about emergency evacuation preparation, understanding finances/debt, tech safety, data, language acquisition, and focusing on skills that will be needed (food prep from scratch, and sustainability). They still play on school basketball teams and have fun. But they also understand flooding can happen and know the family meet up point. We are not bringing kids into a kind or stable world. And listen, it’s never been amazing here, but I think most of our children are vastly unprepared for the real dangers of debt and climate disaster that await them. I genuinely feel like that’s why we are seeing so much anger and apathy from those in their teens and early 20s right now. They suddenly see clearly the future that lays before them and feel both cheated of the skills and ability to adapt to reality. So make sure you’re making an honest assessment of what you can provide.
This! Fantastic advice. As an adoptee, I have never understood the obsession with genes and genetics. It’s so deeply rooted in our society yet strikes me as so implicitly toxic. Yet somehow it seems to be a big reason why people have children to begin with. And conflating value as a woman with motherhood is obviously a big discussion these days. It’s an insidious little voice in the back of so many of our heads. I think people should have children because they *love children* and want to see child grow up to be happy and healthy. That’s not selfish. Raising good kids, and to the best of your ability equipping them to be good adults, can absolutely help the world to be better.
100% if you're in it to give love and raise for the coming world, then yes. And I am more for adoption and with recent changes there will be even more children who desperately need loving homes. Should my partner and I decide to change our child free stance adoption out of the foster system will be our path.
My advice may not be for everyone. Having a child isn't a selfish decision in my opinion. But I also think that you can't be a selfish person and enjoy raising a child. They are time consuming, hard work, and likely will break your heart, also, they are expensive. Kids need so much of your time, constantly. They love to ask questions and demand answers. And my son threw up. A lot. Lol. I hope this helps? Blessings to you.
I’m on my last day of an extended family trip with the in-laws. They have two kids under 3 years old and another due at the end of the year. They are very sweet and well-behaved kids considering how young they are, but my god, it never stops. We rented a large cabin for our group of 12 and it’s been a valuable insight seeing what their day-to-day life is like. Yesterday, they had to spend all day in a rural urgent care center because the 11 month old had an ear infection. Apparently, the baby cried every time my BIL sat down, so he had to stand…for the whole time. 6+ hours. He was bursting to pee and seriously considering going to the toilet while continuing to hold his son, but thankfully my SIL showed up and was able to take over for a bit. Every morning they look like they haven’t slept a wink, with one or the other child crying periodically throughout the night. Mealtimes are a mess and they end up eating more cold, slobbery leftovers from the kids’ plates than they do their own. They’re a good couple and I know they love each other, and I don’t remember them acting this way before the kids, but they are short-tempered and snappy with each other now. I never see them kiss, hug, or speak to each other affectionately. And this is all on vacation when things are supposed to be relaxing and they’re both 100% available. I can’t imagine how stressful it is to handle this load while also going to work. My husband and I have been on the fence about kids for so long - I’ve always, always, always wanted children, but when it started to become a real possibility suddenly my brain threw up a roadblock and was like, “Whoa there, sure about that?” Obviously it’s much more difficult for them, having two kids so young and another already on the way. We wouldn’t have so many so quickly, so maybe it wouldn’t be as difficult for us. But the past four days have certainly served to make that mental roadblock even wider and even taller.
Tbh, holidays with small kids can be EXTREMELY stressful - we had three under three (all long grown now) and the thing is, your home is set up for your kids. They have their own spaces, their own routines, their own furniture and they are used to what happens and who’s around them. You know where the dangers are and have mitigated them, you have your home organised to take account of the kids and it’s set up to be as easy to run as possible. Take them (and you) away from all that and you’ve got a recipe for disaster with stressed and stroppy kids, exhausted parents and just a general level of anxiety in everyone. Parents can’t relax because the house isn’t set up for small children and it’s unfamiliar (and someone else’s to boot)so they have to be on alert **all the time** to make sure the kids don’t get into things they’re not supposed to, get hurt on unfamiliar furniture and in unfamiliar spaces, or they accidentally break or damage something that the parents will then have to replace. The kids get over-tired and overstimulated with all the other people about who aren’t usually there, and they get cranky and bad tempered and honestly, it’s just a whole bag of NOPE. We didn’t have a relaxing holiday with our three until the oldest was about ten, and our three were good, well-behaved kids who didn’t fight and weren’t rowdy. Holidays are exhausting with small children.
Exactly right - my point is not that it’s supposed to be easier on vacation, my point is that the parents are constantly working and *even on vacation,* they don’t get to relax. It literally -n e v e r- stops for them. Even though we have tried to make things as accommodating as possible - there are five other adults here (three with parenting experience and the other two with babysitting experience) to help pick up the slack a bit. And the kids have grown up with us, we’re not distant family members who only see each other occasionally. We’re not strangers to them. We’ve only been hanging out in the cabin and surrounding woods, this isn’t a sightseeing type of vacation, so the kids are still on their normal eating/sleeping routines, and not exposed to any unfamiliar people (except at the urgent care center.) Plus, the house was specifically chosen due to its family friendly aspects - totally kidproof with locking cabinets, nothing breakable, plasticware instead of glass, buckets and buckets of kid toys and books, tables with rounded edges, etc. As far as vacations with small kids go, this should be the absolute easiest, and it’s *still* a slog for them.
Mother of two here, vacations with children are awful. Don’t give this experience too much weight in your decision making process.
I need to disagree. Give this experience the weight it deserves. Vacations with children are like this, and you’ll have to deal with it for however many years. And many other things with children will be difficult. If you are still willing and enthusiastic about procreating after considering this, go for it. Antinatalism sometimes makes good points, but is not a perfect philosophy and its followers are not in possession of THE TRUTH. If you truly want a child after knowing and considering the awful, exhausting, painful parts of the process, then do it.
But this is one of the few parts of child rearing you can really just kind of opt out of. We have zero intentions of taking my kids on a vacation anywhere except a family camp until the youngest is 3 maybe 4 cause we realize it's just a way to burn money to be really exhausted. We don't get anything out of it, the kids don't get anything out of it, it's just kind of an adventure in pointlessness.
I understand, but see, you KNOW what it’s like and you opt out. If you were wearing your rose colored glasses you might think it will be a 24/7 sunscreen commercial with the kids placidly building sandcastles. Knowledge is power, my witches.
Thanks, I’m almost certain we will have kids eventually, we just have never reached that point where we’re like “ok, fuck the insecurities, let’s do it.” Though we both desperately want them, we are afraid. Part of me wishes I would fall pregnant unexpectedly and then the choice would be made for us.
That's not even the hardest part. I would take the "never sit down" toddler days with endless rounds of croup and painful potty training over the teenage years. My son is actually a delight - not disrespectful or defiant or pushing boundaries. But he's depressed about the world and his role in it. He's had suicidal ideations. He's stressed about the future and feels like he has nothing to contribute. Absolutely heartbreaking to see my sweet baby go through this.
That’s certainly the phase I’m most afraid of. None of my nieces or nephews are experiencing this at the moment, so I don’t have firsthand experience with it (edit: from an adult’s perspective) but I struggle with mental health myself and have done since I was probably around your son’s age. And society is so difficult for young people nowadays, it’s bound to be even worse for any child now than it has been for me.
>He was bursting to pee and seriously considering going to the toilet while continuing to hold his son, I'm stunned he waited. I've pee'd holding my 12 month old so many times it's not even an event when it happens. Also you likely saw them at their worst. Vacations with a little kid are NOT relaxing. Essentially you are just parenting in another place without child proofing. It's kind of a nightmare, your kids sleep like crap cause they are somewhere unfamiliar (mine sleeps 12 hours straight a night at home, traveling she's up at least twice a night) , they have less freedom since things aren't baby proofed so you can't just let them free to run around on the floor and such, you are missing a lot of your normal "stuff" that makes having a kid easier (high chairs, toys etc) and they are likely wildly over stimulated from new places, people and a disruption to their routine. I look like I've been dragged backwards through a hedgerow when I take my daughter places overnight but at home it's really not that hard.
This brought back memories of my colicky son. The good news for me is that those years were relatively short-lived. Yes, they were difficult and I was trying to establish a new career at the same time. Now he is a grown man and I’m planning to retire in another decade. While one never stops being a parent, the work definitely subsides. Not a single regret for choosing to have my two. Again, it’s not for everyone, but in retrospect, it was hugely rewarding for me.
It's selfish to have kids because you want them, it's selfish to not have kids because you don't want them. That's what selfish is - it's doing what you want. It's just that our culture respects one desire and denigrates the other.
This is the comment I was going to leave if I didn't see it. Of course having a child is selfish. So is choosing not to have a child. But there's nothing wrong with being selfish in this instance, as long as you love and care for your child.
i was going to answer that! And I'll add : why would it be bad to be selfish? As long as it's not to others detriment, one has to think of one's happiness.
As someone who is pregnant, I think the responses I have gotten about this pregnancy about selfishness is people have told me that it is unethical and selfish for me to have a kid- I’ve heard about the environment, overpopulation, dystopian futures that I’m subjecting another human being to (as if we are absolutely going to face a dystopian reality in the next ~40 years), etc. People have come up to me, strangers and friends alike, to tell me that having a child is to the detriment of the planet and humanity.
Yeah, the bigger problem - always - is that people think women's bodies and behavior and status is up for public commentary and judgement. It's nunya bidness, jerks.
Thats awful. Where do u live? I’ve only seen the opposite. Online i see people respect others wishes to not have kids but in person people/society mostly seems to expect every single person to have children. 🤷♀️
I’m honestly getting uncomfortable with how preachy and judgemental a lot of the replies in this thread are being. Maybe they’re just trying to thoroughly answer OP’s question, but I get really sick of people on feminist subreddits voicing their opinions on who should and shouldn’t have children. I get that a lot of people in this sub and probably online in general had parents that maybe would have been better off not having kids, and that even slightly neglective parenting can be traumatic. But it’s not anyone here’s business to decide who is fit to be a parent and who isn’t.
I bet very, *very* few men get comments like that. It's just that people feel like women, their choices and their bodies are up for public commentary in a way that just doesn't happen to men.
I agree. To me, people believing that they should get to have an opinion on who should or shouldn’t be allowed to have children is how we get to a dystopia really fast. It’s ironically similar to pro-life beliefs—it infers the right to choose for someone else what people do or don’t do with their body.
Yeah that’s exactly what I was trying to get at. I mean technically there are people whose job it is to decide who is fit and isn’t fit to parent (judges, CPS, etc) but even then, people still have the option to reproduce and are given the chance to be good parents before legal action is taken. I know OP asked for opinions, but I don’t like that people are making blanket statements like “you shouldn’t have kids if ____”. Who gets to draw the line that decides someone is too poor/selfish/busy/mentally unstable/whatever to have children? Obviously it’s fine and great to draw that line for yourself, but it’s not okay to push your arbitrary standard on others. And - especially in terms of income inequality- are only rich people allowed to have children now? Because there are plenty of great poor parents and shitty rich parents. I better stop before I get on my soapbox, but I am just frequently shocked on feminist subs how many people shit on mothers and people who want children, seemingly without even realizing it. Literally saying things like “I am childfree and of course I have no problem with/support mothers! I personally couldn’t be selfish enough to feel the need to continue my genetic legacy while the planet is burning, but you do you :)” and don’t understand why people with children/who want children might find that a little offensive. (Ok sorry I didn’t stop)
I agree. It's so strange especially to see money brought up so frequently. I remember reading an essay from a foster parent who was going on and on about how financially solvent she and her husband were when it came to trying to adopt a child. And the social worker sighed and told her, "being poor doesn't make you a bad parent!" And she felt like she was smacked in the face. But it's true. She learned something that day and other people need that wake up call apparently. My husband grew up in extreme poverty in a developing country, but had a loving family. And while he has some lingering effects of that, it certainly never made him unworthy of being here, nor should it have precluded his precious mother from having her four wonderful children. She's only got the equivalent of a 6th grade education, has spent a significant portion of her life "poor" but her children are scholarly and driven and successful people. They've all come a very long way. You can start poor and not have everything figured out and all your trauma healed and still be a wonderful and loving mother. Parenthood is not only for rich white people who can afford therapy and the perfect life. (which is what a lot of these preachy comments seem to be saying, even if they don't realize it) It's odd.
The antinatilism sub is wildly misogynist. I'm child free and muted it because it's toxic and gross. Like most child-free spaces on Reddit, it loves to shit on mothers and women in general. Having kids is fully and completely selfish, just as eating and breathing is. It's a function of being a human and comes from the innate desire to survive and procreate most creatures have. I don't know how far you're going to get trying to avoid any and all selfishness. Have bio kids if that's what you want to do. Only you can judge what's right and wrong for you. I don't regret not having biological children, but I don't feel a better or worse person for it. That's my own unique path.
Yeah I wouldn't look for an unbiased objective in sub that calls people "breeders".
I had never heard of it before today and just took a look in. Just a few minutes of scrolling shows how wildly unhinged it is. Just like any essentially extremist sub!
I’m a big fan of your last sentence here. I really dislike that we’re constantly pressured to rethink and re-evaluate life decisions. Sometimes things just ‘are.’ There could be a different version of you in a different life with kids wondering what it would be like to child-free. Neither choice is right or wrong, just a different path. Wise words.
Whether or not we believe it's selfish, it is the biological reality of our species. I've concluded that "baby fever" is an evolutionary protective mechanism that perpetuates the human species. To me there's no point do debate whether or not it's selfish because it isn't going to stop. Humans will keep reproducing. But as a mother of two who regrets having children, I will tell you that not everyone finds great purpose or reward in motherhood. Unless you like constantly being selfless and putting the needs of others before your own, or even neglecting some of your needs entirely (which shouldn't be but unfortunately in our society where mothers have little to no support, it happens), don't have children. The biggest reason i regret having kids is because now i have these two tiny humans who i never want to experience any kind of hardship or pain yet we live in a world full of it. I can't protect them from everything.
I pretty much was a self-aware depressed addict since I started having a period. I decided that it would be selfish for me to have kids so I vowed never to have them. I got sober and treated for my mental health at 32. Now I'm pushing 40 and I want to have a child for the first time. It may or may not happen at this point. And I'm okay with that. At least I trust myself to be a good parent should it happen.
Feminism means having all available choices open to you, and being empowered to choose what you want. As a parent myself, it’s an amazing experience. It is also not easy. I’d take the not easy any day to have all the amazing. Many of my friends have no intention of ever having kids and I 100% support them. My kid just has more adult figures in his life to show him you can do what you want.
I’d just like to put my appreciation here for everyone with a uterus having this safe space to express themselves and their opinions and experiences. Imo I don’t think it’s selfish to want. Following through with it and not taking your environment into deep consideration can be. Having and raising a child is often glamorized and seems to highlight only the positives. Coming from someone who’s experienced heart wrenching child birth loss, knowing what could go wrong is a burden. I wish someone had brought to my attention the reality of pain with having a kid. I love being a parent, it’s a love that you can’t really explain. With every positive experience you may want with having a child, keep yourself grounded with considering the negative as well. I would suggest journaling for a while and allow yourself to imagine everything as a parent you can, even if it’s not one you want. Your life, your body emotionally and physically, mental health and relationships will change forever, for the good and bad. It’s not an overnight decision but you’ll know when you’ve come to one! Trust your body, put your body first and appreciate whatever the universe brings to you with your decision when it’s time.
It is amazing that this sub is full of people with so many viewpoints that are all kind and understanding, it's a really good place for minorities to feel safe in, it's lovely
I have had two abortions and am consistently on birth control, have an appointment to get my tubes tied in April. Everyone’s life is different. Saying that a person is selfish for wanting a child or not wanting a child is not productive either way. It’s an incredibly personal choice that involves taking MANY things into account. I’m not an antinatalist by any stretch of the imagination but I won’t have kids. It’s a part of my gender identity, and the fact that continuing with the lifestyle I have is not kid-friendly and I have no desire to change said lifestyle.
Consider all the possibilities that could happen like if your kid ended up having a big learning/mental disability. If you could still imagine wanting/loving them, and not seeing them as a burden then sure go ahead if you want to As long as you see it as a life long commitment, not just something to show off or just because that's what people do.
No it isn't selfish. It is a prefectly normal desire. Not wanting children is valid, but so is wanting them.
My views: Having children is literally what we biologically exist for (not that reproducing should be expected of everyone, of course). Reproducing is a base desire and instinct. It's not wrong, and it's no more selfish than breathing or accepting a job opportunity. It's a part of life. Yes, the world is shit, but that's literally always been the case since the dawn of time, and humans have always made babies regardless. Whether the threats we pit our future children against are apex predators, uncontrolled disease, harsh weather, war, shitty political climates, or global warming, I just don't think it makes sense to call having kids selfish. Life is a gift, and with the bad comes so much good. If the idea of having a kid (or more) makes you happy, then imagine your future kid(s) excitedly showing you a drawing they think you'll be proud of or giving you a hug, because you'll be giving them just as much love and happiness as they give you. Besides, the fact that you're asking this sort of question already says to me that you'll be a conscientious, intelligent parent, which is a lot more than a lot of children get. Do what feels right, and for your mental health, consider staying away from antinatalist media.
Few people’s main reason for procreating is “to continue the species/genetic line” though. That’s the base desire and instinct. Instead we see: I want to have a kid because Im lonely or bored and/or want someone to love me. I want to have a kid to save this relationship. I want to have a kid to keep the other parent stuck with me. I want to have a kid because it is what my family expects of me. I want to have a kid so that someone will be obligated to take care of me in old age. I want to have a kid because it will look good for my career/image. I want to have a kid because I want them to continue the family business. I want to have a kid because I can dress them up in cute clothes and they will be a fantastic accessory for me. I want to have a kid because I can put them in pageants and on TV and YouTube and they can make me money and fame. I want to have a kid because my religion demands it. I want to have a kid because it will make me eligible for more government assistance. I want to have a kid because I want to mold them into the perfect human being. I want, I want, I want. It seems like a lot of people don’t consider that ‘having a kid’ really means ‘sprouting and nurturing a person with their own hopes, dreams, needs, and problems that might not align or may even be opposite to yours.’ A person that might be born with or develop very difficult challenges, might hate you or hurt you, or others, might die before you. Someone who still wants to have a kid in full knowledge of all that, in the hopes of continuing the species in a positive way, is unselfish. But I think a lot of people are not that.
God I just agree so much with this. If we as people have got to a point where we are judged as selfish for wanting to have a child, we have literally failed as a species. I want no part of that.
So first of all I have to say that one year in my Reddit Recap the three subs it recommended to me were r/antinatalism, r/TFABlineporn, and r/airpods and I'm still laughing at how completely unhinged that combination is Anyway I'm pregnant, due next month and like any thinking person I'm worried about the state of the world, climate change, etc. so I've thought about this a fair bit. The best thing someone said to me about the dilemma of having kids in a messed up world is that the choice of whether to have children is not a consumer choice. It's much deeper than that and cuts much closer to the core of who we are. People who say it's selfish from a climate standpoint want to act like it's equivalent to choosing whether to install rooftop solar or drive an electric car. To me it's an act of hope. Depending on what specifically is making you feel guilty that may or may not address your concerns, but I do recommend hiding updates from that sub.
I wish I could find this video to link but since I can’t I will hopefully do a decent job summarizing it. The video interviews an indigenous woman on her feelings about having children despite climate change and all it can bring. Her answer echoed a bit of what you said about it being both an act of hope as well as an act of resistance. Resistance because of how it countered the historical genocide against native people and hopeful because she believed if our earth is in that much danger it needs caretakers to continue stewardship of the land. Humans being a destructive force to earth is a very western, colonial idea - we can be stewards and we can create positive outcomes. We as humans caused these issues and with a concerted effort we can also help remedy those same issues - children can help to continue this work generationally. Not saying anyone should have kids or shouldn’t, I believe it is an individual choice just thought it was a perspective I don’t often hear in this day and age of climate catastrophizing.
Yes!!! Thank you so much for saying this, it's the perfect addition to what I was trying to say and Braiding Sweetgrass changed my entire outlook on the environment and our relationship to nature. This does get into some sticky territory because as a non-indigenous person I am also a settler having babies on native land, and of course I'm caught up in all the same systems as everyone else that cause us to do harm, but I do not believe humans are inherently harmful to the earth.
I'm a childfree person, but I've had to leave all the childfree/antinatalist subreddits. Those spaces had become very hostile spaces, with people often praising themselves about how great they are for not wanting kids, how they're saving the planet by not having them, and how "the breeders" are absolutely awful because according to them they are destroying the planet/ narcissists who want a mini me doll/ selfish people looking to breed a retirement plan. It's a circlejerk, tbh, don't pay attention to those spaces. If you want to decide whether you want to have kids, look at the people you know who are raising them in you area. Try to see if you can get them to answer a few honest questions. Don't look at reddit.
If you've taken the time to look through the antinatalism sub, then you know the potential suffering and world you'd be bringing your child into or the effects you're supporting on our planet. There's no need to harp on about that, there's a lot of philosophy siding on either direction and if you don't agree don't feel guilty by that aspect. The questions you need to ask yourself should instead be how good of a parent you can be and whether you're truly ready to *support an entirely new human for themself as an independent being*. Don't raise a kid "to learn about yourself" or whatever growth you think you'll get out of it. Don't raise a kid to "continue your legacy". Especially dont raise a kid to try and force a way to be supported in old age (they don't owe you). - Can you support a kid who from inception to adulthood gives you no love and may even *hate* you? So many people go into this acting like they'll get a little love fountain, this is a small person with their own feelings. - Can you support a kid who through mental or physical disabilities will be an dependent for their entire life? Can you handle the finances and energy this will require? - Can you support a kid in the current political climate (assuming US) that may need you to completely uproot and move states due to laws? - Have you done the work to get through your own traumas, both separate and generational? Do you have your mental health under control in a way that won't harm your kid? - If you end up suffering from post partum depression or psychosis, is there a support system ready that will keep your kid cared for? If you're not the person giving birth, are you prepared to support both a baby and a partner? - Are you prepared to raise your kid as a single parent if something happens to the other parent? Those are a *very few* amount of the questions you need to consider about becoming a parent. It may be a selfish choice to be one (which isn't always bad), but you need to be ready to be *entirely* unselfish past that, for your life.
excellent answer; the comments saying, “do whatever you want, justify nothing!” sound well-meaning, but IMO, there needs to be at least some thought and awareness before plunging into parenthood. it’s not wrong to think about the reality of it, and if the downsides are also what you want (because there will be hard times). it’s not bad to really think about why you want to become a parent, and whether or not that’s a good idea. it’s a big, life-changing decision for multiple people, so yeah, it should involve planning, consideration, and thought. along with the other reasons mentioned in this thread, it might be a red flag if you want kids just to be the parent you never had; this is also an expectation that is wholly about you and your baggage, for example, and not really something that a new person should be produced and made to carry. it’s not the exact same thing, but maybe at least trying babysitting would be useful when faced with a question like this. actually being around kids and being their caretaker, like a brief test run. or, being mindful of how you feel about kids in public. what’s your instinct when a kid is having a meltdown in public, for example? how does it make you feel, or want to act? are you really ready for that degree of poop and bodily fluids? and so on.
If you want to have a kid, have a kid. It's nobody's business either way.
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I’m childfree for a lot of reasons. But one of them is how unsafe the world is for children right now. The world is being devastated environmentally because politicians aren’t putting any barriers up against corporations. The environment is dying and “natural” disasters are becoming more prevalent…most preventable if we had proper protections in place environmentally. Also, living in the US, kids are being killed every day in school shootings. They’re living in a state of constant fear and anxiety…I just personally think it’s cruel to bring children into a world where that’s their reality. I saw an article about how a freshman in college just lived through her 2nd school shooting in her life. As someone who has ptsd, I deeply personally understand the impact two traumatic events like that can have on the rest of your life… I know people have always had kids through bad times, through wars. But for me, I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t bring a child into this world and watch them everyday as they fearfully get ready for school, watch them as they struggle with a lack of natural resources, watch them as they struggle to clean up the messes of older generations that everyone else has failed to resolve. This is just my perspective on what you asked about. Only you know your decision. Realistically, there are very real consequences to having a child in our time today. And I’m not making a judgement on you either way. You have to decide if you can live with whatever consequences naturally result from the action.
Everything everyone has said is pretty good. I had to stop reading anti natalism. And my child bearing days are over. Some stuff is funny a tiny bit is thought provoking but i found a lot is just negative or mean and I don’t need that vibe
My husband and I are childfree, and a big part of that is I want to save resources for the kids who are really wanted. I love seeing parents who really wanted kids interact with them and care for them. If you’re called to motherhood, please go for it without any guilt or shame!
IMHO, having a child *should* be a selfish decision. As in *wanting* a child is the only valid reason to intentionally have one. You shouldn’t have a child because you think they’re going to make the world a better place, because your country’s population is dwindling, because you want someone to look after you in old age, because it’s important to your family, because your partner wants one, because it’s expected, etc. You should only have one because you want one and are prepared to give them the best life you can. Of course, there are considerations, like can you afford a kid, can you give them what they need emotionally, etc. But ultimately, it starts with wanting one. Once the kid is here, you have to switch to selfless mode, but that’s a whole other ball of wax.
The fact that you are asking this questions suggests you are not being selfish. I think the issue is more that most people have children as a default - they assume it's just what adults do. Mindfully having children is a whole different thing. I personally know too many people who did not want children, but had them for their partner, or their parents or whatever. And that's really problematic.
My guy, as long as you treat the child right and not treat it as if it's going to fix pre-existing problems, it's all good.
I have biological children because it’s all I’ve ever wanted in life, and I knew I would be a good parent to them. Their father is also a good parent. It was important to us to raise humans with our values… because these crazy Christian fundamentalists are having a crap ton of kids, and I don’t want their offspring to be the world majority in two generations. If you feel called to have a child, I believe you should listen ❤️
Another way to look at it is to say that your intuition is guiding you to have a child. There are many reasons not to have kids right now but just as many arguments for. If you’re worried about this, I think you’ll make a solid parent. -a 47f, childless but pseudo-co-parenting to scratch that mothering itch.
Most things you do will be inherently selfish. You want a nice house, a reliable car, a pet, delicious dinner, new clothes, a haircut… most choices are self serving in some way. I mean, even if I choose to volunteer, I like how it feels to volunteer and support organizations that match my beliefs. I even get a kick out of buying $20 extra worth of groceries to put in the donation box on the way out! The heart wants what the heart wants. If you want to have biological children, raise them in love, and be part of influencing the next generation of humans - do it. There is no shame in choosing to have a child, and you shouldn’t be made to feel bad for that choice. My kid brings me joy and love. Even mundane things are made greater because he is there with me. 🤷♀️ Antinatalism subs are a place where people who never ever ever want children and can’t understand why we do gather to talk about their feelings. It’s hard to hear your own thoughts about it when you’re consuming media that says having children=bad. (Then again, some mom subs are like this too, and they have kids!) If you want kids, great. Don’t feel bad about going with your gut feeling. If you don’t want kids, great. Don’t feel bad about going with your gut feeling.
no but you have to want everything that could come with kids, disability or injury could mean you’re taking care of them forever and if you’re not prepared for that please don’t. also we never think about how some people are a net positive for the world, the child you have could solve a problem we’re facing and save us all, or could just be a regular person lol. I had children, i wanted them so badly, i feel bad sometimes because we’re overpopulated but when I look at them I know I made the right choice.
I do think having a child is selfish, but that’s about me not you. We do selfish things all the time. I think one of the most valuable results of feminism is the ability for women to chose the life they want. I don’t want children, you do, it’s all good.
The antinatalism sub should be renamed r / ableism for how frequently they use disability as some kind of horror story and view disabled people who have children with a lens that is just a hair’s breadth away from eugenics. Folks like that don’t deserve to have an opinion about what you do with your life.
I was just about to write a similar comment. The eugenics and ableism really turned me away from the sub. At first, I thought I agreed with their views, but then I read so many discriminating and stigmatising comments about mental health. Of course my adhd and anxiety are things that I would be very mindful of if I were to have children, but only because I’d want them to have the right treatment and accommodations from an early age. Part of the reason mine is harder to manage is because I was a late diagnosis. I didn’t grow up with any support or guidance to help me manage the way my brain works so I just had to figure things out for myself. So sometimes that means I have some unfavourable habits or coping mechanisms. But who doesn’t ? It can be debilitating, and of course there are people who cannot manage their symptoms or overcome them. But it solves nothing to just suggest that no one with ADHD should be born because that’s never going to happen. Instead, we should be more inclusive as a society so that something like ADHD doesn’t have to be so debilitating on a systemic level.
Most people who want children don’t think it through all the way before leaping in. The financial burden is real. If you don’t have someone willing to constantly babysit your child (like a grandparent) the cost of child care can take up most of your income. Look into the cost of child care, talk to parents who use child care about their experiences with it. Also consider that once you have a child, the focus of your life is no longer you. It is the child. If you have hobbies you love, and recreational things you like to do, it’s very likely they those will be purged completely out of your life after you are a parent. Furthermore, parenthood is totally exhausting. Especially the infant years. Consider living your life with no sleep. Even with help, there is no time off from the job of parenting.
It's a funny thing. I personally think it's one of the most selfish thing you can do. After all, what other reason is there to have children ? You create a whole life, an entire being, just because you yourself want to. At the same time, I think being a good parent requires an infinite amount of selflessness. Maybe that's why there are so few good parents. But if you're thinking about all this, hopefully you'd be one !
It's ok to want a child. And it's ok to be a single mom if you can care for and support your child. Better sperm donation than a so-so partner.
As someone who never ever wants children hates them being pushed onto me and does make that a part of my personality... Please just ignore antinatalism sub. They are people so insecure about their decision that they can only be angry at everyone else.
I don’t like to label people as selfish. But I do think it’s important to consider what it actually means to have a child… It means more pollution will be made to supply your child with energy, more animals must die to feed them meat, more land must be cleared to grow crops for them, more water must be extracted and filtered for them… Not to mention, what kinda of world will your child experience? Do you plan to live somewhere less impacted by the climate crisis? By 2030 there will be a lot of migration away from coastal states in America. So I think you have to debate if it’s actually worth it and if it’s fair to your future child.
I think the world could use more kids raised by thoughtful people like yourself who take the time to ask these questions and who clearly care about the ethical ramifications of their actions. It’s definitely true that you can’t control the type of person your kid will turn out to be, but these days we have so many resources available to help us raise children thoughtfully. I see many people now who listen to toddler psychology and who work hard to break the chains of harmful patterns that were inflicted on them in their own upbringing, and it gives me hope that the generations we raise will be more caring and kind and sympathetic than any beforehand. But full disclosure, I’m giving birth soon, so I need to be optimistic right now.
The best thing about true intersectional feminism is that it means as women we get more choices instead of fewer. Not that children are bad, career good, or that only some women should get to have children. The problem in the US is that it’s more dangerous for BIPOC women (esp Black women) to have kids, and it’s harder for economically disadvantaged women to have kids and be supported. If you have a community that makes it possible for you to have and raise a child, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.
I mean most human desires are selfish in some way. You want a child, and they don't exist yet so if we're being pedantic then it's selfish. Doesn't mean it's bad, though, so long as you're committed to raising, loving, and accepting them and aren't using them as a means to an end.
If you’re going into it for the right reasons of wanting to nurture and raise a kind, productive member of society, I don’t think so. If you’re doing it only because it’s what you think is expected of you, then I’d say yes.
Not selfish, raise a good human and you are just adding value to the rest of the world.
The one thing that all of your direct ancestors had, through all of the extinction events, back to the beginning of live birth, they all had children. It's natural, it's a core driver of life. Given the arc of civilization and your own place in it, it may not be practical... Selfish though? No, I don't think so, probably not anyways.
No. The antinatalism sub, afaik, is full of… well, they aren’t feminists. It attracts women who want to talk with other women who don’t want kids, and then they figure out who all is there and run away.
I don't think it's selfish, provided you love them and raise them right, which you're obviously planning to do, given the fact that you're even asking the question at all. Sounds to me like you would make a good and responsible parent
A lot of comments have already stated great things so I will just say this: that sub is full of incredibly pessimistic people. I’ve spent five minutes on it and have come out feeling so disgusted and disheartened by the opinions held by the people in that sub. Completely ignore it. Avoid it. The people in that sub have a negative ass mindset that is just total bullshit. That entire sub is completely irrelevant.
Do what is right for you. Your body is going to tell you it wants a child at some point. I'm 37 and have never had children. But a few years ago my brother and his wife had a baby girl. I spent a few days with them when she was just under a year and I couldn't believe how much I instantly loved her. I can't imagine how strong that feeling would be if it were my own. When I left and went back home my body wanted a baby so bad it started acting pregnant. My breasts swelled up and my period was late. The urge was strong. But it passed. Still though, I'll always wonder.
Just from a self care on social media perspective: How is the antinatalism sub popping up for you? Is it in reddit, or in emails? If it's in reddit itself, I'm not sure what's going on unless you somehow accidentally subbed to it. If it's in email, there should be a "hide r/antinatalism" button in the email. Please take care of your mental health.
Nope.It's a personal choice.
It’s a normal thing to want. Enjoy your life and don’t worry about what others think.
Start by muting the antinatalism sub. Parents vary as much as any subset of people. Some people are selfish, some are not. If you don’t want to be a selfish parent, the power is within you to figure out what that means and how to avoid it. There is nothing selfish about fulfilling such a simple and human need. I felt a calling to be a parent, other people do not. Both ways are fine.
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I mean just my personal opinion with the state of the world right now and uncertainty of the future, yes it’s selfish.
Here are my two cents as an antinatalist: I think what most antinatalists dislike about people who want to be parents is how many parents don’t really see their children as future adults, want children for selfish reasons (to take care of them when older or to continue the bloodline), not care about genetic disorders, don’t have the means to take care of the child (imagine not being able to buy the child basic essentials or get them a proper education), and most importantly, act like bringing the child into this world is something the child should be thankful for. I believe that if a parent is prepared to give the child all they might financially need, loves the child no matter how they turn out (no matter if they stop being part of your religion or are part of the LGBTQ+), is prepared to support the child through their life and not just expect them to be ready by 18, and remember that they (the parent) owe everything to their child for bringing them into this horrible world, then I’d say you aren’t a bad person, and in my opinion you are a good parent it would be beneficial for you to have children, because your children could then be educated and help others in the future. The reason I believe most antinatalist (like myself) exist is because we see how many bad parents exist and how they ruin not only the lives of their children, but of others because then their bad children are able to hurt good children and make the world worse. The things antinatalists say are mostly directed to bad parents who lack at least one of the things I stated above. Unfortunately these types of parents are the majority, but that doesn’t mean there might be some good ones out their, and those that are, I believe should have children.
[Decades of data suggest parenthood makes people unhappy](https://bigthink.com/the-present/should-you-have-kids/)
You do not need to justify your desire to procreate. (Anyone who insists that you do is toxic AF). Remember, a huge component of PRO-CHOICE is the right to make your reproduction decisions for yourself. You are not selfish.
I have a daughter 15, and son 13. They are wonderful human beings and I have never regretted becoming a mother. The whole world is new in their eyes, and I enjoy re-discovering the joys of life with them. We do art, music, cook, and play games. They are old enough now to do a few things for themselves, I’m not cleaning up after them as much these days. They can only do 1 sport each, I will not run them around to endless activities. We have two pet rabbits, but I haven’t been keen on them having a lot of pets, since I still do most of the pet chores. I would never throw shade on someone who doesn’t want kids. I have indeed shortchanged my career and hobbies to raise them, and I completely support those who want to live their life for themselves. Career, kids, activities, pets, hobbies, household chores, Just don’t try to do it all.
I'm 32. I agree with antinatalists on a lot of their stances and have my own personal reasons for not wanting to procreate myself. You need to be ready to accept a child exactly as they are, accept that your child may be physically/intellectually/emotionally handicapped, have health problems, or even just have an opposing personality to yours. It's a roll of the dice and you can't guarantee a perfectly healthy baby with no complications. You also must consider the risks of pregnancy, not everyone has an easy time with it and there can be serious and lasting medical problems. My idea is that there are already so many children in need, in foster care, in the streets, and that it would be irresponsible for ME PERSONALLY to create another life when I could open my home and foster an older kid or teenager when I'm secure enough in my housing and finances to do so. They're already here and already suffering, I'd prefer to try and ease that instead of "rolling the dice" on bringing another soul into this world.
This is also my point of view. It doesn't make sense to bring more children into this world when there are already children here who need parents. A lot of problems on the planet are caused by us wanting more and more. I'm childfree too and would like to see a world where more people consider adoption upfront rather than as a plan b for when they can't have biological children.
No. Malthusian theory is just incorrect. The issue is concentration and distribution of resources.
It’s not selfish to want to raise a child. You should just do whatever you can to go into parenthood prepared. Start saving up, read advice books on childcare or take a class, discuss it with your SO.
No. When I was in my twenties I wanted kids but health was craptastic and then I learned realize and dreams are two very separate things. Don’t get me wrong, kids are cute and can be fun but I make a better babysitter than a mom. I get to spoil them rotten and then hand them back. To be honest, a dog and/or cat fulfill that maternal instinct just fine.
Honestly it is kind of selfish. Look at the environment, climate change. Look at the political climate. If you have a girl, she is being born with less rights than your grandmother had. Your kids would NEVER own a home. They would work every single day for the rest of their lives just to rent a 1 bed/1 bath forever. Why would anybody want to bring a kid into this world?
I should preface this by saying I don't want kids. I avoid antinatalism they are kinda extremist I see their points, I disagree. I cannot consider anyone suggesting genocide as reasonable. Having and raising children is one of, if not the most selfless thing you can do. To have a child is to sacrifice your health, wealth and sometimes even your life for another. I cannot think of anything more selfless.
In my opinion, bringing a new soul to this world isn’t something I find responsible. However, wanting to raise a child is different! I’d advise to look into other options rather than only biological ones, because many souls already here need help and love
It is selfish, but that's not really the issue, is it? We all do selfish things all the time, we don't buy groceries or read our favorite books out of altruism. I think the bigger question is whether it is kind and loving to bring a new human into this world right now? If it was just bullies on social media that kids faced now I’d say good parenting might be enough, but the reality is it’s not unreasonable for kids be anxious about getting shot by the police or other kids at school. We can’t honestly even tell them that working hard and getting a good job will be enough to ensure they can afford the ballooning costs of healthcare, housing, and food. Predatory landlords, increasingly frequent global pandemics, climate disasters, racism/sexism/homophobia, student loans, chronic illness, christian fascism, and a system run fundamentally to ensure that greed from the top goes unchecked are just a few of the realities they’ll face. For example, what if you have a daughter? How can you guarantee that she'll have bodily autonomy? Is living in a place where rights aren’t currently restricted enough? What if your child needs gender affirming care, will they have reliable access to that? You don’t have to be a constitutional scholar to understand that things will get worse before they get better. The world has always been difficult and complex for sure, and there are amazing advances in science and technology, but a child who is born now isn't going to live in some advanced, far off, future utopia. They'll go through puberty in 10-15 years from now, if you're in the US that could be just 2-3 administrations away. Will things really be better then? Some will say that it’s children brought up with love who will solve our problems. But isn’t that a lot to expect from them when they’ll have to fight so hard just to have the same standard of living their parents have? It’s not that we should give up on our world, far from that. We should all use whatever energy and anger we have to make this world a place worth being brought into. Of course it will never be perfect or ideal, but don’t you just feel that it should be so much better than...this? Don’t you think a child you decide to bring here deserve better than this? I think it’s awesome that you have the extra love and energy to give to someone else. Truly. But why make a new person with needs to be met, when there are so many people here whose suffering would certainly be lessened with the love, effort and kindness you have to spare?
To succumb to the biological urge to procreate is a choice. A child cannot give consent to being born; therefore, choosing to reproduce is a selfish act to fulfill your own need/desires. I am an antinatslist because I believe reproduction is morally wrong, irresponsible, and incredibly selfish. I am not, however, anti-child, anti-woman, nor anti-family. I am anti-suffering, and I am a firm defender of consent in all capacities.
I mean, yeah, it's selfish but it's not wrong. Wanting a nice home is selfish too.
I would say no it isn’t, personally I am child free. Both my husband and myself are snipped. We wanted to ensure it wouldn’t happen under any circumstance, however our decision isn’t for everyone. If you want kids and have the mental and emotional band with to raise them healthy go for it.
You're evil for wanting children. You are evil if you don't. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Either way it's your choice. You don't have to justify what makes you happy to anyone. Live by these few quotes Find what you love and let it kill you -Charles Bukowski Sometimes we can only hope to die with the right regrets -arthur miller Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind -Dr Suess And make your life one to remember and most importantly one that makes you smile.
If you want a child that's fine If you don't want a child that's fine too Your body, your decision The only thing that's not fine is forcing YOUR beliefs on others, if you want a child, great! But don't expect all your friends to get pregnant around the same time so your child can be friends with theirs. Anyway hope this helps, remember your body, your choice, and even if you don't have a partner it's still possible for you to have a child
Don't worry, you're a woman, whatever you do will be judged by someone one day... Do not care about the other's opinion, follow your heart, that's the choice you'd regret the least at the end.
The antinatalism sub is awful because they'll treat you like shit for *wanting* to have kids and deign to bring one into the world in its current state, ignoring that everybody's circumstances and desires differ. My partner and I are strictly child-free, but I don't think it's wrong to want children at all, so long as you can support them properly and aren't using them to *fix* a relationship.
I think there's a BIG difference between the "childfree by choice" crowd in general and antinatalism, which displays a consistently virulent nihilism and hatred for the human race, and likely has a lot of overlap with incel and ecofascist communities.
NO. It is NOT selfish to desire to have babies and raise children and enjoy having a family. At all. Reproduction is one of the strongest drives for living things. We are animals. It is 100% normal and expected for humans to reproduce. The difference between humans and animals is that we can make a conscious decision to have a baby.
Antinatalism is an extreme nihilistic ideology pretending to be a philosophy that is essentially calling for the mass extinction of humans. Do not let this weirdo death cult (that seems to be mainly Reddit based) let you feel weird or guilty about wanting to experience the literal miracle of creating life. My husband and I waited to have kids until we were financially and emotionally stable, got all our wild oats sewn, and now raising these three tiny people is one of the greatest joys I’ve ever experienced.
The very black and white mindset of the antinatalists has roots in an extremely problematic and not-well-reasoned book. A recent episode of [If Books Could Kill](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-population-bomb/id1651876897?i=1000590263802) gives a quick, funny, pretty brutal analysis. The book in question is The Population Bomb.
That sub is pretty toxic. I hardcore support anyone that wants to be child free, but that sub actively hates anyone with a kid. Who do they think is going to care for them when they’re too old to care for themselves? Who do they think is going to be writing policy when they’re too old to vote? It’s the kids that are being born right now. If you want to have a society, you have to have more people being born. It’s not selfish at all to want kids.
I was vehement about not wanting a baby, until one day at age 26 I just did. It was in my bones. He is six now, and parenting has hard moments, but its amazing to watch him learn and develop and it feels like a special gift that I was allowed to bring his soul to earth, and there are many great moments of love and joy between us. Motherhood has changed me for the better. Im aware its something that is special and not for everyone. And there are phases that are scary and hard. You'll be forced to reckon with your demons and trauma if you want to do a good job. And things may not go the way you hoped. Reading some other great comments too here, some of us want a child and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. It is very very hard, but for me is worth it.
That sub is full of disturbed, death-centric individuals, quite literally preaching "life for me but not for thee". Really twisted stuff, no reason to compromise your brief and brilliant time on earth with their fucking bullshit.
Wanting to have a biological kid is selfish and egocentric. There’s a difference between wanting to be a parent and wanting to reproduce, it comes mostly from the motivation behind it .
Having children is an extremely intimate, personal decision, don't let others affect you one way or another - it's your life.
It's not bad for you to want a child, but I think it's wise to get to the root of why you can't look straight at why you want a child before you decide. There's a major internal conflict there directly connected to children and that conduct is going to get worse if you have a child without figuring it out, which can escalate into neglect or other forms of abuse.
It is not selfish, I am a mother to three kind, wonderful & loving children and I adore my role. Make sure you have a good support system if you decide to have children, they say “it takes a village” and though it can be done alone it is certainly better with help. Wishing you the best, blessed be 🖤
I think an empowered, loving, witchy, real life requires a balanced amount of selfishness, balanced with lots of generosity and openness to the world. I think having my one kiddo increases my generosity and openness. My playful, unconditional love for him both helps me be gentler toward others, more connected to a cross-class community of local parents and kids, AND to set better boundaries. I didn’t have second kid for selfish reasons (though it might look unselfish from a climate perspective) — that I wanted to focus on my creative work and career and mental health. I think we need to care both about the globe AND about ourselves in order to flourish.
It’s the most natural thing in the world to have a child… if you want a child and can support one - please don’t let anyone try to tell you otherwise. I really think things like this, such personal decisions, should not be crowdsourced. It is not a crime to have a personal desire, no matter what anyone says. I just don’t like seeing these sorts of posts of people feeling guilty for things like this. It shouldn’t exist as everyone has the right to have a child if they want.
Will you strive to protect your child from the things that harmed you growing up? Will you try to give them a better life? Will you try to address any generational trauma, so you don’t pass it on? Will you love them even if they make choices you don’t agree with, so long as they are not harming others? Is the extinction of the human race really a morally superior stance then continuing to have kids? Raising kids and teaching the next generation can be very rewarding. Part of why I’m hoping to give birth rather than adopt is because I long to see my lost loved ones. If my baby has my mothers hair, or my cousins smile, it will be a beautiful thing I could never get from adoption. Knowing a child’s full medical and family history, knowing what things could have happened during pregnancy and their wee years, it can be helpful.
As an adoptee who absolutely takes after a maternal grandmother who died before I was born and have no actual blood ties to, that's not entirely how I believe it works. Family is family is family. If you feel you couldn't see an adopted child as your family as much as a biological one, that's part of who you are as a person, not intrinsic to how you have a child.
I'm going to echo this and also mention the "seeing lost loved ones" in the next generation has some serious problems in the line of reasoning. For example, if you are white and your partner is not, and your mixed ethnicity child takes after the parent that is a person of color....would you be disappointed? I think more people should ask themselves questions like this and examine the narrative around genetics because I feel like in our society there's a lot of casual racism and ableism that shows up where you wouldn't expect it, if that makes sense.
I never said that I wouldn’t view an adopted child as part of my family, or less than a biological one. I didn’t imply it either. If we adopt that child will be just as much as loved and cherished - but the odds the children who need families will resemble my family are slim, and I won’t be picking a kid based on looks like some people do. The only criteria we’ll have is we can meet their support needs.
It’s completely your choice. I will say that it’s all I wanted for 10-15 years, it ruled my life. I waited too long, or just wasn’t meant to be, and lost all my pregnancies. I’m on the other side of it now and completely okay with being childfree. I don’t know if I would be at such peace with not being a mother had I not made the space and time I needed in order to at least try. Ultimately, I prefer my sleep and my mental health. The whole journey is what led me to the peace of being okay with it, and if someone had suggested a childfree life to me 8 years ago — I would have cut them off. I love my children, all of them, and there’s a sort of a mercy in knowing that they won’t have to endure this society, or drain the resources of mother earth. I will not be fostering or adopting, proactively asking to be spared from those suggestions. I’m all for it, was a ward of the state myself, but it’s no longer aligned with my being.
I do think that bringing kids into this world is inherently selfish. That said, I have 3 kids. I think that, since I chose to bring them into this world, I owe them something. I do my best to make sure that they live a happy fulfilling life, and I try to give them the support they need (whatever that looks like). I thinks it's perfectly fine/normal to want a child, but it's important that you recognize that you're doing this for yourself.
So I’m one who very much wants children. It’s been a strong desire for a long time. I’m personally really excited to see what I learn about myself with a child- what kind of person my partner and I can create and grow. Our child will have two failing but loving parents- I’m okay with that. It’s more then most, and we’ll help them figure out where we went wrong and grow with them again too. I think two is where we want to go- my partner doesn’t have a big family and most of my siblings are child free, by choice or otherwise. Do I think that there’s a point where you can have to many children? Yes. But one? One to learn and to watch develop, to have hardships with and mourn with and watch joys and love? Nah. That’s not selfish. Things always seem bad- the sky is always falling. And that sub is trash.
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