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##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS.
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She knew that's where Lan wanted to be and how much it meant to him to be there to fight for Malkier. She knew he would stay with her, but she also didn't want to deny him the chance to fight for his homeland again. She also knew that he was not the only one who still loved Malkier and would want a chance to fight for it. So she set things up to put him at the head of an army to be with him. She could've held him back, but that's not the kind of person she wanted to be in terms of holding Lan back from what he believed he was right and what he should be doing.
I think there's also a part of Nynaeve that doesn't accept that things can't be healed. Lan and the other Malkieri have long been forced to accept that Malkier is dead and can't be brought back. Nynaeve is not so easily convinced.
He's also going to Tarwin's gap which is a really good place to hold back the trollocs. Everyone else has pulled their armies back or Rand has forces doing other things. So it's a pretty good idea to get a new force covering the gap.
Exactly! Though thinking back on it I wish Nynaeve had seen Rand trying to heal that girl, would've been a cool moment for them to bond over trying to heal the unhealable and struggling to let go.
Sometimes you just want to release emotional energy with a good cry. And I have things I read or watch that can help with that, and this is one of them.
Nynaeve's transformation throughout the books is awesome. Sure she's stubborn but so are each of the other Emonds Fielders. Do you hate Rand for being stubborn also? I bet you hate Egwene, Faile, and Morgase too.
Funnily enough, I do hate Egwene, Faile, and Morgase, but Nynaeve's my favorite character. There's a huge difference: Rand and Nynaeve undergo sweeping character growth. Those others 100% do not learn a damn thing ever, and remain just as insufferable on the last page of the series as they were on the first.
Nynaeve, though, is a completely different person by AMOL and every inch of it feels earned.
>Nynaeve, though, is a completely different person by AMOL and every inch of it feels earned.
I don't feel like this excuses her earlier characterisation though.
In the beginning she had to keep herself in a constant state of fury or she couldn’t do magic you’d be a bitch too if it allowed you to throw fireballs at a moments notice and thousands of 9 foot tall monsters were hunting you with the intention of eating you
Maybe stubborn is the wrong word, she likes to bully everyone and is only not able to to Mat because of his magic necklace.
I used to like Egwene but after she became Amrylin I don't like her as much. Maybe stubborn is the wrong word, she likes to bully everyone and is only not able to to Mat because of his magic necklace. I found Faile most enjoyable when she wasn't with Perrin but that might have been because of Berelain no taking no for an answer. I actually quite like Moragase, though I think it's a really bad decision for her not to go back to Camelyn where she knows one of her children is, I'm sure Gawyn and Galad would like to know she's alive but she might not know where they are. Rand is... I'm not sure how I feel about him.
Its amazing how the scene wraps up the reader in the very same near-hysteria that takes hold of the Malkieri merchants she is talking to. Literally god-tier writing.
If only the shadow was so blatant and had easily defined borders in real life what man could live with himself staying out of the fight instead almost everything has a moral grey area with well meaning people so mixed with evil that you could never separate them
Nyneave is accepting that other people have agency and the ability to make their own decisions. It’s the lesson Rand needs to learn.
The Wisdom from Book 1 wouldn’t have allowed her husband to do that.
Exactly I definitely believe her breaking her block didn't just enable her to channel at will, it represented a core change in her personality from "must hold on, must fight against, must control" to being able to let go. And in doing so she is able to let other people have agency and instead of trying to force them do things "her way" instead, she can instead support them to do what they want to do. Which is major growth.
As someone who used to be "over controlled" like Nynaeve I can really relate to this arc.
I mean except in Rands case because she knows how important he is.
The issue is that she can't really articulate WHY or HOW he's supposed to do it, she just KNOWS that he's not doing it right. When Rand drops the "climbing Dragonmount takes everything" speech to her she's a hair away from buying it.
>he would stay with her if she just asked him to.
The Sea Folk vows encompass everyday behaviour, but not things as large as this. And Nynaeve is wise enough not to attempt to make Lan choose between his life purpose and his love.
It’s love for Lan and respecting who he is, at his very core. It’s also the culmination of her character arc and growth — to relinquish control and accept his agency, in contrast to Moiraine (who undoubtedly did what she did for the most noble reasons) and the other Aes Sedai. He is not a tool to be used, but an autonomous person. Probably the hardest single thing she ever had to do in her entire life.
Yup. She knows, loves, and respects the man — the actual human man — that she married. If he says he has to do a thing, she supports him _despite_ knowing that it could (and probably will) be his death.
Nynaeve, for all her early faults, has a better grasp of the underlying humanity of the world than literally anyone else.
It's the end of the world and Lan is the epitome of duty. She knew that if tried to hold him back she would lose him even if he stayed alive. So her plan was to let him leave as he intended, just not in the manner that he wanted. Lan had sworn to never lead others in his fight against the Shadow, but he would never give up the fight. So she did the best thing that she could do, which was to leave him in no position to refuse help and fly the Golden Crane.
And in other news... Someone Questions the motives of the woman behind the greatest love story ever told. Next up, an opinion piece "why tugging a braid in frustration can be better than smacking someone with a weave of air."
I never got the idea that Lan *really* cared about their Sea Folk wedding vows. He just thought it was a neat idea (and Nynaeve was clearly a little kinky about it) so it seemed to work for their dynamic.
Lan's rigid moral code is something much deeper. If he really thought he had to do something, then those sea folk wedding rituals they stumbled into mean nothing next to his true DUTY.
You think a guy who's whole personality is honour and duty is going to decide to ignore vows he willingly made to his wife? THAT would be completely against his rigid moral code.
No, As far as I can tell, Tarmon Gai'don is pretty soon and it will happen in the Blight, at Shayol Ghul, which is where he is going now, why can't he wait just a bit longer?
He's going to the Blight. My subordinate clause
>, at Shayol Ghul,
was about where the Last Battle will occur.
Why wouldn't he go to the Shaitan's prison though? It's probably the most dangerous place in the Blight and he wants to die.
Here's how I understand it:
The spread of the Blight led to Malkier being lost. the Blight is caused by the Dark One. The Dark One is at Shayol Ghul. So if he goes to Shayol ghul and kills the Dark One, he avenges Maklier. Now I also don't remember him ever saying he wants to avenge Malkier. Dying in the Blight does not automatically make him avenger Malkier otherwise every male Aeil channler would be avenging Malkier.
I think she knows Lan always wanted and intended to do this, and while she could order him to stay, she knows he would resent her forever for doing so. And that it would be disrespectful to him to deprive him of the agency to do this, especially since Nynaeve has put her own life in danger for what she believes in multiple times. It would be unfair to expect her warrior husband to tame himself for her.
Yes Nynaeve is known for hypocrisy but I think the fact she lets Lan go to the Blight and instead helps raise an army to give him the best chance to survive is a testament to how genuinely she loves and believes in him and also how she has grown over time.
After all, Nynaeve's greatest flaw in the first half of the series was a fear of losing control. This manifested as her trying to control others like the Emonds Field four "for their own good" as well as an inability to let go and surrender to saidar.
She married Lan once she was able to "let go". In doing so she was able to "let go" of having to control everything and everyone. So she was able to let Lan go, despite wanting him to stay and being able to command him to stay.
To me, that's growth.
>I think she knows Lan always wanted and intended to do this, and while she could order him to stay, she knows he would resent her forever for doing so. And that it would be disrespectful to him to deprive him of the agency to do this, especially since Nynaeve has put her own life in danger for what she believes in multiple times. It would be unfair to expect her warrior husband to tame himself for her.
Can he not just wait a little bit longer until Tarmon Gai'don?
Nynaeve is stupid as love makes people stupid! Lan chose her because he knew she would be incapable of actually commanding him in public . Nynaeve is not Moirain! He could do whatever he wants, including one day going back to Mo , because duty is heavier than a mountain and he gave Mo an oath long time ago, that's still there for him to uphold of he is an honorable man and not a coward .
Nynaeve/Lan marriage is gonna be a one of her following him around since he intends to be a
actual King. He'll need to make grand decisions and serve his kingdom first and his wife second , Moiraine second . 😆
He does, but in the same way, even if there's just one Malkieri fighting against the dark, it means that Malkier is not death , hence, he could fulfill his birthright after all.
Mangragoran is full of controversial thoughts and feelings about this certain topic 😆
#[NO SPOILERS BEYOND *Knife of Dreams*.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_the_eye_of_the_world_.2F_et_al.) ##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS. If this is a re-read, please change the flair to **All Print**. * * * *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
She knew that's where Lan wanted to be and how much it meant to him to be there to fight for Malkier. She knew he would stay with her, but she also didn't want to deny him the chance to fight for his homeland again. She also knew that he was not the only one who still loved Malkier and would want a chance to fight for it. So she set things up to put him at the head of an army to be with him. She could've held him back, but that's not the kind of person she wanted to be in terms of holding Lan back from what he believed he was right and what he should be doing. I think there's also a part of Nynaeve that doesn't accept that things can't be healed. Lan and the other Malkieri have long been forced to accept that Malkier is dead and can't be brought back. Nynaeve is not so easily convinced. He's also going to Tarwin's gap which is a really good place to hold back the trollocs. Everyone else has pulled their armies back or Rand has forces doing other things. So it's a pretty good idea to get a new force covering the gap.
Everybody: Anything short of death can be healed Nynaeve and Rand: Why not death too?
Exactly! Though thinking back on it I wish Nynaeve had seen Rand trying to heal that girl, would've been a cool moment for them to bond over trying to heal the unhealable and struggling to let go.
So we can get another top-3 fantasy scene of all time (Nyn recruiting the Malkieri) and she understands the weight of duty.
I just read this part last week!! I was sobbing after that chapter. I adore Nynaeve
It gets me everytime even after multidinous rereads.
Sometimes you just want to release emotional energy with a good cry. And I have things I read or watch that can help with that, and this is one of them.
I hate that stubborn bitch.
Nynaeve's transformation throughout the books is awesome. Sure she's stubborn but so are each of the other Emonds Fielders. Do you hate Rand for being stubborn also? I bet you hate Egwene, Faile, and Morgase too.
Funnily enough, I do hate Egwene, Faile, and Morgase, but Nynaeve's my favorite character. There's a huge difference: Rand and Nynaeve undergo sweeping character growth. Those others 100% do not learn a damn thing ever, and remain just as insufferable on the last page of the series as they were on the first. Nynaeve, though, is a completely different person by AMOL and every inch of it feels earned.
>Nynaeve, though, is a completely different person by AMOL and every inch of it feels earned. I don't feel like this excuses her earlier characterisation though.
In the beginning she had to keep herself in a constant state of fury or she couldn’t do magic you’d be a bitch too if it allowed you to throw fireballs at a moments notice and thousands of 9 foot tall monsters were hunting you with the intention of eating you
Maybe stubborn is the wrong word, she likes to bully everyone and is only not able to to Mat because of his magic necklace. I used to like Egwene but after she became Amrylin I don't like her as much. Maybe stubborn is the wrong word, she likes to bully everyone and is only not able to to Mat because of his magic necklace. I found Faile most enjoyable when she wasn't with Perrin but that might have been because of Berelain no taking no for an answer. I actually quite like Moragase, though I think it's a really bad decision for her not to go back to Camelyn where she knows one of her children is, I'm sure Gawyn and Galad would like to know she's alive but she might not know where they are. Rand is... I'm not sure how I feel about him.
This is gross and disappointing post.
“Does my husband ride for Tarmon Gai’don alone?” I’m in the back of an Uber and just thought of the line. The hairs on my arms are standing up.
Its amazing how the scene wraps up the reader in the very same near-hysteria that takes hold of the Malkieri merchants she is talking to. Literally god-tier writing.
If only the shadow was so blatant and had easily defined borders in real life what man could live with himself staying out of the fight instead almost everything has a moral grey area with well meaning people so mixed with evil that you could never separate them
This was a pants shittingly exciting moment. (I just finished the series first time on Sunday). Glad to see it properly respected
Easily top 5 moment of the entire series
Heavier than a mountain, whatever that means.
Nyneave is accepting that other people have agency and the ability to make their own decisions. It’s the lesson Rand needs to learn. The Wisdom from Book 1 wouldn’t have allowed her husband to do that.
Exactly I definitely believe her breaking her block didn't just enable her to channel at will, it represented a core change in her personality from "must hold on, must fight against, must control" to being able to let go. And in doing so she is able to let other people have agency and instead of trying to force them do things "her way" instead, she can instead support them to do what they want to do. Which is major growth. As someone who used to be "over controlled" like Nynaeve I can really relate to this arc.
I mean except in Rands case because she knows how important he is. The issue is that she can't really articulate WHY or HOW he's supposed to do it, she just KNOWS that he's not doing it right. When Rand drops the "climbing Dragonmount takes everything" speech to her she's a hair away from buying it.
>he would stay with her if she just asked him to. The Sea Folk vows encompass everyday behaviour, but not things as large as this. And Nynaeve is wise enough not to attempt to make Lan choose between his life purpose and his love.
It’s love for Lan and respecting who he is, at his very core. It’s also the culmination of her character arc and growth — to relinquish control and accept his agency, in contrast to Moiraine (who undoubtedly did what she did for the most noble reasons) and the other Aes Sedai. He is not a tool to be used, but an autonomous person. Probably the hardest single thing she ever had to do in her entire life.
Yup. She knows, loves, and respects the man — the actual human man — that she married. If he says he has to do a thing, she supports him _despite_ knowing that it could (and probably will) be his death. Nynaeve, for all her early faults, has a better grasp of the underlying humanity of the world than literally anyone else.
Moiraine - saving the world. Nynaeve - saving the people in it.
Very well said!
It's the end of the world and Lan is the epitome of duty. She knew that if tried to hold him back she would lose him even if he stayed alive. So her plan was to let him leave as he intended, just not in the manner that he wanted. Lan had sworn to never lead others in his fight against the Shadow, but he would never give up the fight. So she did the best thing that she could do, which was to leave him in no position to refuse help and fly the Golden Crane.
And in other news... Someone Questions the motives of the woman behind the greatest love story ever told. Next up, an opinion piece "why tugging a braid in frustration can be better than smacking someone with a weave of air."
She does both.
I never got the idea that Lan *really* cared about their Sea Folk wedding vows. He just thought it was a neat idea (and Nynaeve was clearly a little kinky about it) so it seemed to work for their dynamic. Lan's rigid moral code is something much deeper. If he really thought he had to do something, then those sea folk wedding rituals they stumbled into mean nothing next to his true DUTY.
Are you kidding? The very first time in his life that he was granted the upper hand over a woman? The kink was certainly mutual.
You think a guy who's whole personality is honour and duty is going to decide to ignore vows he willingly made to his wife? THAT would be completely against his rigid moral code.
Do you think her forbidding that might be a big thing between them for, you know, the rest of their lives?
No, As far as I can tell, Tarmon Gai'don is pretty soon and it will happen in the Blight, at Shayol Ghul, which is where he is going now, why can't he wait just a bit longer?
If you think Lan is going to Shayol Ghul you gotta re-read all his parts.
He's going to the Blight. My subordinate clause >, at Shayol Ghul, was about where the Last Battle will occur. Why wouldn't he go to the Shaitan's prison though? It's probably the most dangerous place in the Blight and he wants to die.
Where is he from? Every place he goes and every time he appears in the books what place is a constant?
Moraine I would have said was the constant before she "died" but he's the uncrowned king of Malkier so maybe, he'd go there?
His entire mission was to avenge his fallen home. His endless war with the Shadow to avenge Malkier. He held no interest in Shayol Ghul
Here's how I understand it: The spread of the Blight led to Malkier being lost. the Blight is caused by the Dark One. The Dark One is at Shayol Ghul. So if he goes to Shayol ghul and kills the Dark One, he avenges Maklier. Now I also don't remember him ever saying he wants to avenge Malkier. Dying in the Blight does not automatically make him avenger Malkier otherwise every male Aeil channler would be avenging Malkier.
You’re missing the forest through the trees.
I think she knows Lan always wanted and intended to do this, and while she could order him to stay, she knows he would resent her forever for doing so. And that it would be disrespectful to him to deprive him of the agency to do this, especially since Nynaeve has put her own life in danger for what she believes in multiple times. It would be unfair to expect her warrior husband to tame himself for her. Yes Nynaeve is known for hypocrisy but I think the fact she lets Lan go to the Blight and instead helps raise an army to give him the best chance to survive is a testament to how genuinely she loves and believes in him and also how she has grown over time. After all, Nynaeve's greatest flaw in the first half of the series was a fear of losing control. This manifested as her trying to control others like the Emonds Field four "for their own good" as well as an inability to let go and surrender to saidar. She married Lan once she was able to "let go". In doing so she was able to "let go" of having to control everything and everyone. So she was able to let Lan go, despite wanting him to stay and being able to command him to stay. To me, that's growth.
>I think she knows Lan always wanted and intended to do this, and while she could order him to stay, she knows he would resent her forever for doing so. And that it would be disrespectful to him to deprive him of the agency to do this, especially since Nynaeve has put her own life in danger for what she believes in multiple times. It would be unfair to expect her warrior husband to tame himself for her. Can he not just wait a little bit longer until Tarmon Gai'don?
You know nothing, Jon Snow…
RAFO is all I can say :D
Nynaeve is stupid as love makes people stupid! Lan chose her because he knew she would be incapable of actually commanding him in public . Nynaeve is not Moirain! He could do whatever he wants, including one day going back to Mo , because duty is heavier than a mountain and he gave Mo an oath long time ago, that's still there for him to uphold of he is an honorable man and not a coward . Nynaeve/Lan marriage is gonna be a one of her following him around since he intends to be a actual King. He'll need to make grand decisions and serve his kingdom first and his wife second , Moiraine second . 😆
Doesn't he keep denying the fact that he is a king because his kingdom is dead?
He does, but in the same way, even if there's just one Malkieri fighting against the dark, it means that Malkier is not death , hence, he could fulfill his birthright after all. Mangragoran is full of controversial thoughts and feelings about this certain topic 😆
I think you mean contradictory, not controversial.
Yes , contradictory.