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Robert Jordan had plans for a standalone novel following Tuon and Mat in Seanchan. He didn't leave any notes *other* than that, and so it wasn't addressed in *The Wheel of Time* because there was nothing for Brandon Sanderson to develop.
Haha, there were three prequels planned, and three outrigger novels, but I don't think any of them were connected. (One prequel would deal with Tam, one with Moiraine and Lan and how they ended up in Two Rivers.)
Ooh, I looked into it and it looks like as far as September 2005 he was like "no sequels ever!" and then on October 17th, 2005 he started mentioning the possibility of two or three "outrigger" novels he called sideline stories.
EDIT: At the Wheel of Time Panel at WorldCon in Denver, August 9th, 2008, Tom Doherty mentioned that aside from loving Brandon Sanderson's novels, the planned Mat-Tuon trilogy had already been under contract with Robert Jordan.
[Original outline after he finished book 1 and realized it would have to be two trillogies!](https://i.imgur.com/9n6E4oH.png)
Also, he famously would [constantly predict](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/14q354/so_how_long_is_the_series_going_to_be_rjs_answers/) he could wrap the series up in 2-3 books for the entire publishing run of WoT
There were actually two notes. They now follow.
* [Interview] >!Perrin is going to Seanchan to kill an old friend.!<
* [Interview] >!Matt lying in a gutter wearing a tattered cloak.!<
Other than that, all we know is that they were planned to follow Tuon and Mat dealing with the Seanchan situation, and take place about 5-10 years after the end of *A Memory of Light*.
Same, Tuon was one of my favorite characters throughout the series and I was a little disappointed with the lack of elaboration or any continuation with her and Mat but that disappointment is absolutely nothing next to how amazing I think the series is overall and how well Jordan and Sanderson wrote.
Jordan never intended to flesh out every single plot line. I honestly don't remember if I read this in an article or if I heard him say it in person at a book signing, but he said (paraphrasing) that people were bound to be disappointed but not everything can or should be wrapped up in a tidy manner. In that way it's like real life, where your story crosses many many other people's stories, most of which you never learn the resolution.
After all, there are no endings. The story was over, but that doesn't mean that nothing else happened to those people after. The story was pretty much the last few years before the 4th age.
Yeah I think the book series that was supposed to follow is the obvious choice as you alluded too.
Iâm not sure about unresolvedâŠas when someone is resolved is probably different for everyone baring death of a character.
Iâm mostly left with a disgruntled âwhat nextâ for literally everything. What happens to the white and black towers. Does Rand go back to see his father. What happens to Rands kids. How long does the dragons peace last?
Things Iâve told myself on long car rides.
- the wheel of time is Loialâs book! Everyone knows the greatness of Rand and how everything went down.
- Rand sees his father relatively quickly
- Rand shapeshifts his body to look like his own pretty quickly. He can do whatever he wants after all including be invisible if necessary.
- Perrin begrudgingly rebuilds Manetheren, he doesnât want to but his people want it. But it remains part of Andor
- Eventually so many channelers leave Seanchan that the empire begins to crumble. They are forced to change their ways not out of seeing the light of their actions but out of necessity. How they treated channelers will in the centuries to come be a great shame that they will be dealing with the ramifications of. (Like past slave owning nations)
- Lans happily ever after. Real classic Disney tale this one. Nynaeve really does figure out how to heal everything but death.
- The Aiel will eventually go to war with Shara who rebuild and invade.
- Cadsuane dies pretty much immediately after refusing to undo the oaths. Fuck Cadsuane. The towers will eventually merge againâŠthis must happen if time is cyclical. When I donât know. lol.
Sorry you had to read my terrible fan fiction bullet points lol
Spot on! Though I also like to think that Arthur hawkwing having a conversation with tuon helped speed up the reforms, so a mix of necessary and explicit disapproval from Arthur hawkwing led tuon to be the empress who reforms the ways of empire.
And mat doesn't really need aes sedai to take back seanchan empire.
Thank you!
Ah yeah I totally forgot that conversation happened. Thatâs a good point. Although even if Tuon wants to change it, Iâm not sure she could. Iâd imagine they would try to assassinate her quickly. It would turn their society upside down. Thatâs gets mentioned quite a few times and I feel like that must have been foreshadowing for the next series.
I never mentioned Mat lol. Happy gambling of course resisting all expectations of his position and being slowly dragged towards fatherhood. Heâs going kicking and screaming. lol.
The Hawkwing-Fortuona conversation probably started a few reforms, but the way the Seanchan treat channelers wouldnât be one of them. Hawkwing actually thought that the whole aâdam/damane/sulâdam thing was amazing. He was less thrilled about the other types of slavery.
>The towers will eventually merge againâŠthis must happen if time is cyclical
I don't think the Towers necessarily will merge and that won't matter for the timeline since at some point between the Third and First Ages Channeling needs to be forgotten all together
Well they gotta merge at some point but you are right. It strikes me as odd that channeling dies out because where would it go in the timeline? Kind of forgot that was a thing.
It could be due to technology use but that actually doesnât make sense. Thereâs also a prehistoric age with dinosaurs and stuff right? How can that come again and also crazy technology use by age one?
Maybe there are two resets? The breaking and something else? Like a meteor?
- Age one -> portal stones and space travel (current level technology)
- Age two -> The Age of legends (technology unfathomable)
- Age three -> The Story (primitive technology but on the rise)
- Age four -> dragons peace (industrialization?)
- Age five -> Crazy machine war?
- Age Six -> Prehistoric? Channeling lost? ???
- Age seven -> ???
Like I donât get it. Unless the prehistoric age doesnât come again. How at the start of age 4 can we be going into industrialization and then by age 1 be doing space travel with a dinosaur age in between?
2 extinction events? One by man and one by the environment? How could channeling die out with technology getting so good it makes it irrelevant if by age 2 itâs back again and thriving? Channeling could be rediscovered during prehistoric age I guess.
There could be two technology erasâŠone using the power to boost technology (age of legends) and the other not (4th age). These could lead to different disaster scenarios.
I donât know my head hurts lol
>Eventually so many channelers leave Seanchan that the empire begins to crumble.
Tuon: all damane may become marath'damane
Shanan: would you like the a'dam removed
Moghedien: yes pls
I thought they had to go to the white tower? I think her identity will be discovered relatively quickly and she will be on the run. That would be a fun storyline.
You start to feel with her bone-weary impatience of having to go through the SAME DAMN DRAMA ever 50 years, and even when it is on a much bigger scale it clearly composed of the individual parts of the political situations she has been dealing with over and over again.
The White Tower organization that is supposed to be supporting her has been broken since before she got there, and despite her efforts has just been getting more and more broken over the past 100 years.
"Why do you always think you know better than us?"
"You're TWENTY! Everyone here is twenty! The oldest people in positions of power here are barely fifty! Except for these Wise Ones but they've spent two hundred years learning which lizards are poisonous instead of being able to help me balance this damn political plate-spin."
"You're mean."
"Oh for the love of god, I'll get you some lunchables and a gameboy if you just shut up and let me work for a moment."
After Lan dies in ~30 years, Nyaneave is going to come striding into the White Tower and just announce that she is a Sitter and Head of the Yellow Aja, then get ready to brow-beat anyone who tells her that is not how it works.
Given Cadsuane will probably die around then, I imagine it would go more like:
Nyneave grieves Lan, ensures her child is secure on the throne and in good hands and 'disappears' for a while. Legends come to tell of a mysterious Aes Sedai who appears whereever there is sickness and cures it, before leaving as abruptly as she comes. Nobody has any luck tracking her down but she always appears where she is needed.
A terrible epidemic hits Tar Valon, one that strains the still diminished ranks of full Yellow sisters present (any with even the least skill in healing are pressed into service and Accepted and Novices are brought into circles to provide power). The combined virulence of the disease, the Aes Sedai relying heavily on just the Power and not trying to prevent spread and quarantine, the rejection of using herbs and remedies to help reduce suffering and need for the Power, and a weak Amyrlin after Cadsuane's death causes utter chaos.
Though she is never directly seen by another Sister, rumors fly of the Borderlands Healer appearing in the city. The Amyrlin catches the illness, and it leaves her weak enough that the Yellow fears using Healing on her. In what is assumed to be her last hours, none other than el'Nynaeve ti al'Meara Mandragoran walks through the doors of the Amyrlin's quarters, staring down any that question her, and performs a miracle of Healing. The Amyrlin lives through the night, but steps down from the Seat and retires.
Nyneave takes charge of the city and the handling of the epidemic, calls in the Kin (who the Tower had forgotten about their extensive healing experience), organizes every wise woman and wisdom from the surrounding area and enacts strict quarantine and sanitation standards. It breaks the Epidemic swiftly.
She prepares to leave, her work done, when a Novice from what was the Two Rivers knocks on her door, and she answers it. It is a Summons to the Hall, and with her signature anger at being called before the Hall after she saved the whole city she goes, ready to strip their hides. The hall unanimously Raises her, over her own protests.
She serves for 100 years before stepping down and it is seen as an era of great stability and prosperity.
More her general point of view. She doesn't trust anyone to do things right except herself, which seems self centered and egotistical until you realize how many politicial undercurrents there are inside and outside the White Tower and how being an Aes Sedai is synonymous with lying without overtly lying.
Not a trait you want to emulate, but one that makes a lot of sense in Randland. Sure, she's annoying because of it, but 9 times out of 10 she's right to not rely on others. Remember the first time we meet her in New Spring, Moraine is outright misleading her about her purpose there and one of the other Sisters is Black Ajah.
Cadsuane is what Moraine would be with a century more experience.
I donât think Rand changes his body back. In Aviendhaâs vision of the future, she sees her children and describes them with dark hair, like Moridin.
Awesome post. Nice to cast a view into these plausible avenues! It has been a while for me but I had thought Rand in his new body wasnt powered-up anymore? I felt there was language about him not experiencing the one power and that it was a calming change.
Maybe I read it wrong, it has been years since MOL. I bring it up as you have some shapeshifting predictions for him.
Thanks man!!
No you are exactly right. He canât channel but he can manipulate the strings of the pattern. Theoretically right itâs not out right said. But itâs a pretty popular fan theory that he learned how to influence the pattern in this way from doing so against the dark one.
So if he can light his cigar he can do anything (at least in my mind).
The Aiel being pulled into the Shara conflict is interesting. Especially after they have kind of gotten a familiarity with conquering.
Hell, Tuon and the Seanchan could even encorage/provoke such a venture, as they don't care about Shara but anything that draws away the keepers of the Dragon's Peace from the Westlands is good for the Seanchan Empire.
It's unresolved because Jordan planned to write novels after the main series with Mat and Tuon.
There are a ton of hints in the ToM glossary that point to the resolution of that plot line though.
It's been a few years since I've read AMoL, but I would swear that there were pretty big hints that Tuon was at least starting to question her upbringing. Which... feels right. Remember, she has not just lived in but been part of the ruling family of this culture for her entire life. And she has been told that her culture is superior, and so far, fairly little has happened to disabuse her of that notion. So, she meets Mat. She meets Egwene. She watches how the AS act in the last battle. She has a chat with Hawkwing. And.... that should be the beginning of a process. Which is what I see in the books.
I finished AMoL yesterday. She literally jokes about killing Mat in their last conversation since she's pregnant now and no longer needs him for an heir. Pretty bleak outlook on her development if you ask me.
It is a frequently recurring theme in the books that humor does not work well across cultures. Seanchan noble humor and Our World humor might be as incompatible as Aeil and Two Rivers humor.
I know itâs technically resolved, but Padan Fain, honestly. I doubt what ended up happening with him was what was meant to happen. Wouldâve liked to see what Robert had intended and had that resolved more thoroughly.
The only thing RJ intended that he wrote down was "don't make him Gollum" and he didn't even use him in his later books except for that WH(?) appearance.
Honesty, is Rand and his wifes, I fell that RJ never thought it through and I hate how Rand just peaced out leaving two pregnant women and 6 kids. I really think that that whole affair deserved to be more flashed out.
Two of them can teleport anywhere in the world, and always know where he is. I doubt heâll be even trying to avoid them, and he couldnât if he tried.
This didnât irritate me but part of me was disappointed we didnât get to see Elayneâs experience of actually having âthe babesâ and getting to be a mom, Aes Sedai, queen, and first-sister. I know that it wasnât the point of the story but it felt abrupt emotionally lol
HOWEVER it makes sense to me that the story happened the way it did. The end of the world is both a slowly creeping and abrupt thing, Elayne fighting in the last battle at around 6 (?) months pregnant illustrates how desperate the battle was.
I really wanted Setalle Anan to be healed and channel again.
Iâd also like to know how Perrin and Faille manage their responsibilities in Saldea and the Two Rivers simultaneously.
> Iâd also like to know how Perrin and Faille manage their responsibilities in Saldea and the Two Rivers simultaneously.
Sanderson gave us a clue on that . . .
If you remember, right before the Last Battle Perrin made **Tam the Steward Of Two Rivers.**
That helps give the reader some nice head canon there.
I feel like she would be weary to return to the white tower with her family and new found disappointment of aes sedai. She definitely should have been healed forthe last battle though
The entire Fain/Mordeth plot feels like one that grew as a cancer within Jordon's own writing. Like he intentionally did not try to link Fain into the master plot structure to represent how his evil is an insidious stain on the pattern. Maybe Jordon was waiting excitedly himself to see how Fain fit into the Last Battle and knew that the answer would emerge as he was writing it.
Yeah, when Mat told Artur Hawkwing to talk with Tuon, I figured heâd tell her to free the damane and go back to Seanchan. Sometimes high fantasy is complicated though, and in a way itâs more satisfying than a Lord of the Rings happily-ever-after ending.
I wish when Rand was battling the Dark One he had a quick vision of all the loose ends - who released Padan Fain, who killed Asmodean, that Dashiva was really Aginor, etc.
There was one mystery about why young Aes Sedai were selected to be sitters that I never really felt was resolved, but last time I mentioned it the other redditors all felt was it was resolved to their satisfaction so maybe I just missed it.
I think it was important that the Seanchan were still the Seanchan during Randâs battle with the dark one. While Slavery is evil, it is also a very human evil. It was important that Rand chose to save humanity warts and all instead of giving into despair and oblivion like Ishy/Moridin.
Also, I think the young sitters were just orders from the heads of the Ajahâs, so when the tower was reunited, there would be no question who keeps their seat and who stepped down.
yes I loved how, while slavery was sick, it was not an evil of the dark one. It was a human evil that he momentarily would have to accept. Uncomfortable decision making that made Rand a better character.
The sitters actually was resolved iirc (on a re read but from last (3rd) time through:
all of this is purely from the mainline books, but iâll spoiler it to be safe cause idr exactly when it was discussed.
>!The Ajah heads tinkered when the tower split, and made sure that young sitters would be raised to fill gaps in the tower and out. sitters who in theory would be all but puppets for the ajah heads, to then use to reunite the tower. and obviously being young, easy to move aside when the tower was whole, and the hall was then overcrowded. so they could go back to the original sitters. In true WoT fashion, this plan went absolutely horribly and did not work as intended, especially since they didnât expect the rebels to actually march.!<
thats my memory/ understanding of it anyway
edit: fixed spoiler tag
I have been thinking about Hawkwing's thoughts on damane. The way I see it, Aurtur's opinions on Aes Sedai were quite negative - they had too much unchecked power. The resolution of his seige of Tar Valon included the Tower agreeing to the Three Oaths.
His sons, who went across the ocean, shared his opinions on channelers, but had an Aes Sedai who made an a'dam. So, the solution in Seanchan became to collar channelers.
I wonder what Aurtur would think of the results on both sides of the ocean. The Three Oaths are imperfect and Aes Sedai remain untrusted. But the a'dam is barbaric and has rested in a society built on slavery. What would he think? What would he advise to Fortuona? I would LOVE to read about that conversation and the aftermath.
Artur Hawkwingâs hardline hatred of Aes Sedai was fanned by Ishamael from his place in Hawkwingâs Court. When Hawkwing died that influence would be gone. Whatâs more, even at his most anti-Aes Sedai Hawkwing showed no particular dislike of Channelers, it was the organization and its members he had a problem with. And finally, Hawkwing rides at the command of the DRAGON. The most Channelingest Channeler to ever Channel. If he had a problem with Channelers or Channeling it probably would have come up at some point in the past eternity his soul has been bound to the Horn.
Yeah, I tried to differentiate by saying Aes Sedai vs channelers in regards to Aurtur (though not his sons). But even so, I'm not sure how much of his actions as a Hero are determined by his own personality and how much by the Horn.
I have only the foggiest of memories about Ishamael having influence pre-Eye of the World. And I just did a re-read, including A New Spring. Where is it written about Ishamael being in Hawkwing's court?
Ishmael brags to one of the boys early on that he was there when Hawkwing needed an Aes Sedai healer to live but Ishamael whispered in his ear and the advisors who brought it up were executed. Doesn't really say he was in Hawkwing's court. Just that he inflamed the hatred of Aes Sedai at the end.
Ah. I took that more as his influence in dreams, through his weak (but not weak enough to break) seal. Not as his full, walking and talking presence. But the result is the same.
Is it not? Iâll have to reread. Aragorn becomes a great king over peaceful times. The elves and other immortals go to the undying lands. Many of the hobbits lead successful lives as mayors and other leadership positions. Legolas and Gimli toured the world together. It struck me as âeverything is great nowâ ending.
Frodo can never heal and has to leave Middle-earth behind.
Reading the Appendices tells us that the Elves lead Middle-earth or fade into shadows, Dwarves and Hobbits are going to fade away as well, the line of NĂșmenorean kings that follow after Aragorn will eventually dwindle into present-day humans. Sam will outlive his wife and eventually travel the Straight Road to Aman like Frodo did.
I mean yes, life goes on and most of the heroes had decent lives after "The End," but it's clear that the glory of Gondor and the NĂșmenoreans will fade over the prevailing centuries and the grandness of Middle-earth will slowly drift into just Earth.
I'd say it's a happy ending for the characters, but a bit of a bittersweet ending for the world. The characters get to lead fairly happy lives and while the world is now at peace, it will never be as grand and epic as it once was, the magic of the world will go and never return.
I'd say that's pretty fair (minus Frodo, of course).
The novel hints at this. All the Elves know it for sure: their time is ending. The films make Elrond tell Arwen this explicitly for the sake of the audience, but I think the scene in *The Fellowship of the Ring: Extended Edition* where Sam and Frodo see the party of Elves passing through singing "*A! Elbereth Gilthoniel!*" probably sets it up the best. (I love that track.)
It's rather hard to say the characters didn't at least earn their happy endings, though.
But that's what makes *The Lord of the Rings* such a popular novel. And likewise, I think, with *The Wheel of Time*.
What about the song to make the chora trees grow? I'd always thought that this was the song they were searching for... Rand could have told them, he was singing it in AMOL.
The song is a mythical reference back to the Age of Legends, when things were better. The Aiel at that time sang, and the Tinkers believe it was the singing that made things better, and there was so mythical lost song that caused it. So if they find that song it will bring back this mythical time none of them can even begin to talk about because none of them have been to Rhuidean. The Song of Growing is not the Song. Even if Rand taught it to them it wouldnât be what theyâre looking for.
Ah I see. I didn't realise they were searching for something so specific. I thought they didn't know what exactly the song did and therefore it was obvious for me that it had to be the growing song...
Itâs not obvious, and is a very passing mention in Book 4, but them losing what they were looking for is shown in Randâs trip through Rhuidean. This line: â"We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again."
The first Tinker makes no mention of looking for a song. Just finding a place where they can be safe and sing again this has warped into looking for âthe Song.â
None of them irritated me, but the Seanchan plotline is the one that I am dying without a continuation for. I really WANT that continuation, because there's so much potential there that we'll never get.
>Her opinion on aes sedai did not change a fraction, despite Matt allegedly hating the adam
She was never given a reason to. Throughout the entire series, every channeler she personally met with is either collared or has pissed her off in some way. Nynaeve probably gave her the best impression, and she still yelled at Tuon about her husband (though she was complimenting him so I dunno what she would have thought about that). Elaida certainly wouldn't have helped her impression of the Aes Sedai, because that woman was their fucking leader. She doesn't know the context, so she sees this woman who is literally trying to bargain and offer up her people in exchange for her freedom and that certainly paints a very negative impression of her organization, an impression she already held a negative view of, and Egwene certainly did not help that impression by practically picking a fight with her.
I am irritated that Egwene died because I can't imagine the epic shadow-war between the White Tower and the Crystal Throne. You just know that Seanchan would have been Amerlyn Egwene's top priority.
However, Cadsuane will not be nearly as aggressive.
Look they did a marvelous job concluding the series in most ways, but I think we can admit Harriet/BS made a mistake not course correcting with the Mat/Seanchan stuff when it became clear the sequel series would never happen.
As is itâs bad, it just is
I wouldâve accepted even a half-assed conclusion, just like a line or two of dialogue where Tuon is like ââŠhuh okay maybe Iâm wrong about thisâ wouldâve been *way* better than nothing.
They wouldn't be able to fit the entire reclaiming Seanchan/freeing damane post-TG plot line into the pre-TG books, but yeah they could omit plot hooks.
Manatheren. I know Perrin and Tam talk about it and Tam agrees that Perrin should not rebuild Manatheren and that plot point ends there, but I'd have loved to see a conflict between Elayne and Perrin (after the Last Battle of course).
I always wanted to know what happened to the channelers that were forcibly turned to be darkfriends. Is there a way to fix those people? It seems like it did happen to a bunch of ashaman and if they're just evil now, forever, that is a real raw deal.
#[NO SPOILERS BEYOND *A Memory of Light*.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_the_eye_of_the_world_.2F_et_al.) ##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS. If this is a re-read, please change the flair to **All Print**. * * * *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Robert Jordan had plans for a standalone novel following Tuon and Mat in Seanchan. He didn't leave any notes *other* than that, and so it wasn't addressed in *The Wheel of Time* because there was nothing for Brandon Sanderson to develop.
I think it was plans for a tentative Trilogy* - referred to as Outrigger * He pitched Wheel of Time as a trilogy too - lol
Haha, there were three prequels planned, and three outrigger novels, but I don't think any of them were connected. (One prequel would deal with Tam, one with Moiraine and Lan and how they ended up in Two Rivers.)
Ooh, I looked into it and it looks like as far as September 2005 he was like "no sequels ever!" and then on October 17th, 2005 he started mentioning the possibility of two or three "outrigger" novels he called sideline stories. EDIT: At the Wheel of Time Panel at WorldCon in Denver, August 9th, 2008, Tom Doherty mentioned that aside from loving Brandon Sanderson's novels, the planned Mat-Tuon trilogy had already been under contract with Robert Jordan.
Pitching it as a trilogy is even more ironic given that Brandon Sanderson was supposed to finish it with one book and then wrote a trilogy instead.
My ADHD ass would absolutely read 3x the WoT corpus.
[Original outline after he finished book 1 and realized it would have to be two trillogies!](https://i.imgur.com/9n6E4oH.png) Also, he famously would [constantly predict](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/14q354/so_how_long_is_the_series_going_to_be_rjs_answers/) he could wrap the series up in 2-3 books for the entire publishing run of WoT
Man you should've never told me that now I'll always be sad about what could've been
There were actually two notes. They now follow. * [Interview] >!Perrin is going to Seanchan to kill an old friend.!< * [Interview] >!Matt lying in a gutter wearing a tattered cloak.!< Other than that, all we know is that they were planned to follow Tuon and Mat dealing with the Seanchan situation, and take place about 5-10 years after the end of *A Memory of Light*.
Oh what could have been :(
There were multiple spinoff series planned I believe. đ
Same, Tuon was one of my favorite characters throughout the series and I was a little disappointed with the lack of elaboration or any continuation with her and Mat but that disappointment is absolutely nothing next to how amazing I think the series is overall and how well Jordan and Sanderson wrote.
loved the series and loved the last book as well completely, just a bit underwhelmed with a few plot lines
Jordan never intended to flesh out every single plot line. I honestly don't remember if I read this in an article or if I heard him say it in person at a book signing, but he said (paraphrasing) that people were bound to be disappointed but not everything can or should be wrapped up in a tidy manner. In that way it's like real life, where your story crosses many many other people's stories, most of which you never learn the resolution.
After all, there are no endings. The story was over, but that doesn't mean that nothing else happened to those people after. The story was pretty much the last few years before the 4th age.
Yeah I think the book series that was supposed to follow is the obvious choice as you alluded too. Iâm not sure about unresolvedâŠas when someone is resolved is probably different for everyone baring death of a character. Iâm mostly left with a disgruntled âwhat nextâ for literally everything. What happens to the white and black towers. Does Rand go back to see his father. What happens to Rands kids. How long does the dragons peace last? Things Iâve told myself on long car rides. - the wheel of time is Loialâs book! Everyone knows the greatness of Rand and how everything went down. - Rand sees his father relatively quickly - Rand shapeshifts his body to look like his own pretty quickly. He can do whatever he wants after all including be invisible if necessary. - Perrin begrudgingly rebuilds Manetheren, he doesnât want to but his people want it. But it remains part of Andor - Eventually so many channelers leave Seanchan that the empire begins to crumble. They are forced to change their ways not out of seeing the light of their actions but out of necessity. How they treated channelers will in the centuries to come be a great shame that they will be dealing with the ramifications of. (Like past slave owning nations) - Lans happily ever after. Real classic Disney tale this one. Nynaeve really does figure out how to heal everything but death. - The Aiel will eventually go to war with Shara who rebuild and invade. - Cadsuane dies pretty much immediately after refusing to undo the oaths. Fuck Cadsuane. The towers will eventually merge againâŠthis must happen if time is cyclical. When I donât know. lol. Sorry you had to read my terrible fan fiction bullet points lol
Spot on! Though I also like to think that Arthur hawkwing having a conversation with tuon helped speed up the reforms, so a mix of necessary and explicit disapproval from Arthur hawkwing led tuon to be the empress who reforms the ways of empire. And mat doesn't really need aes sedai to take back seanchan empire.
Thank you! Ah yeah I totally forgot that conversation happened. Thatâs a good point. Although even if Tuon wants to change it, Iâm not sure she could. Iâd imagine they would try to assassinate her quickly. It would turn their society upside down. Thatâs gets mentioned quite a few times and I feel like that must have been foreshadowing for the next series. I never mentioned Mat lol. Happy gambling of course resisting all expectations of his position and being slowly dragged towards fatherhood. Heâs going kicking and screaming. lol.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Man that's news to me.. changes my perception a bit about hawkwing, I always thought all the aes sedai hate was just ishamael being grima to him.
The Hawkwing-Fortuona conversation probably started a few reforms, but the way the Seanchan treat channelers wouldnât be one of them. Hawkwing actually thought that the whole aâdam/damane/sulâdam thing was amazing. He was less thrilled about the other types of slavery.
whaaat? When did that conversation happen in AMoL?
Off-page after ch. 43
>The towers will eventually merge againâŠthis must happen if time is cyclical I don't think the Towers necessarily will merge and that won't matter for the timeline since at some point between the Third and First Ages Channeling needs to be forgotten all together
Well they gotta merge at some point but you are right. It strikes me as odd that channeling dies out because where would it go in the timeline? Kind of forgot that was a thing. It could be due to technology use but that actually doesnât make sense. Thereâs also a prehistoric age with dinosaurs and stuff right? How can that come again and also crazy technology use by age one? Maybe there are two resets? The breaking and something else? Like a meteor? - Age one -> portal stones and space travel (current level technology) - Age two -> The Age of legends (technology unfathomable) - Age three -> The Story (primitive technology but on the rise) - Age four -> dragons peace (industrialization?) - Age five -> Crazy machine war? - Age Six -> Prehistoric? Channeling lost? ??? - Age seven -> ??? Like I donât get it. Unless the prehistoric age doesnât come again. How at the start of age 4 can we be going into industrialization and then by age 1 be doing space travel with a dinosaur age in between? 2 extinction events? One by man and one by the environment? How could channeling die out with technology getting so good it makes it irrelevant if by age 2 itâs back again and thriving? Channeling could be rediscovered during prehistoric age I guess. There could be two technology erasâŠone using the power to boost technology (age of legends) and the other not (4th age). These could lead to different disaster scenarios. I donât know my head hurts lol
I think each Turning of the Wheel must end with a Big Crunch type event to do a hard reset for the new First Age
But they are using space travel in age 1 and making the portal stonesâŠyou canât have a reset into that
I mean the First Age is where we're at now and we've almost got space travel. Portal Stones and the Horn of Valere I don't know though
It'd suck if you kept getting born into that era over and over.
Yeah, I had the impression that the seventh age ends with the end of the universe and the first age starts with the creation of a new one.
my favourite part of the last book was when loial wrote the opening as well :)
>Eventually so many channelers leave Seanchan that the empire begins to crumble. Tuon: all damane may become marath'damane Shanan: would you like the a'dam removed Moghedien: yes pls
I thought they had to go to the white tower? I think her identity will be discovered relatively quickly and she will be on the run. That would be a fun storyline.
Moghedien becomes one of the fourth age Wonder Girls
The older I get the less I dislike Cadsuane.
You start to feel with her bone-weary impatience of having to go through the SAME DAMN DRAMA ever 50 years, and even when it is on a much bigger scale it clearly composed of the individual parts of the political situations she has been dealing with over and over again. The White Tower organization that is supposed to be supporting her has been broken since before she got there, and despite her efforts has just been getting more and more broken over the past 100 years. "Why do you always think you know better than us?" "You're TWENTY! Everyone here is twenty! The oldest people in positions of power here are barely fifty! Except for these Wise Ones but they've spent two hundred years learning which lizards are poisonous instead of being able to help me balance this damn political plate-spin." "You're mean." "Oh for the love of god, I'll get you some lunchables and a gameboy if you just shut up and let me work for a moment."
There's a reason the Wise Ones respect Cadsuane (eventually) and she respects them (eventually). And why she comes to respect Nyaneave.
With Nyaneave I think it's mostly that she clearly sees herself, just 150 years younger. Cadsuane probably gets deja vu every time Nyaneave speaks.
Thank the Creator she has Lan to distract her. Imagine what she could do if she wasn't distracted.
After Lan dies in ~30 years, Nyaneave is going to come striding into the White Tower and just announce that she is a Sitter and Head of the Yellow Aja, then get ready to brow-beat anyone who tells her that is not how it works.
Given Cadsuane will probably die around then, I imagine it would go more like: Nyneave grieves Lan, ensures her child is secure on the throne and in good hands and 'disappears' for a while. Legends come to tell of a mysterious Aes Sedai who appears whereever there is sickness and cures it, before leaving as abruptly as she comes. Nobody has any luck tracking her down but she always appears where she is needed. A terrible epidemic hits Tar Valon, one that strains the still diminished ranks of full Yellow sisters present (any with even the least skill in healing are pressed into service and Accepted and Novices are brought into circles to provide power). The combined virulence of the disease, the Aes Sedai relying heavily on just the Power and not trying to prevent spread and quarantine, the rejection of using herbs and remedies to help reduce suffering and need for the Power, and a weak Amyrlin after Cadsuane's death causes utter chaos. Though she is never directly seen by another Sister, rumors fly of the Borderlands Healer appearing in the city. The Amyrlin catches the illness, and it leaves her weak enough that the Yellow fears using Healing on her. In what is assumed to be her last hours, none other than el'Nynaeve ti al'Meara Mandragoran walks through the doors of the Amyrlin's quarters, staring down any that question her, and performs a miracle of Healing. The Amyrlin lives through the night, but steps down from the Seat and retires. Nyneave takes charge of the city and the handling of the epidemic, calls in the Kin (who the Tower had forgotten about their extensive healing experience), organizes every wise woman and wisdom from the surrounding area and enacts strict quarantine and sanitation standards. It breaks the Epidemic swiftly. She prepares to leave, her work done, when a Novice from what was the Two Rivers knocks on her door, and she answers it. It is a Summons to the Hall, and with her signature anger at being called before the Hall after she saved the whole city she goes, ready to strip their hides. The hall unanimously Raises her, over her own protests. She serves for 100 years before stepping down and it is seen as an era of great stability and prosperity.
Spot on.
Sounds like itâs time for some self-reflection if youâre starting to identify with Cadsuane.
Never said I was identifying with her, just that some of her points are ss egregious as they were.
Which points of hers do you no longer think are egregious?
More her general point of view. She doesn't trust anyone to do things right except herself, which seems self centered and egotistical until you realize how many politicial undercurrents there are inside and outside the White Tower and how being an Aes Sedai is synonymous with lying without overtly lying. Not a trait you want to emulate, but one that makes a lot of sense in Randland. Sure, she's annoying because of it, but 9 times out of 10 she's right to not rely on others. Remember the first time we meet her in New Spring, Moraine is outright misleading her about her purpose there and one of the other Sisters is Black Ajah. Cadsuane is what Moraine would be with a century more experience.
I was almost certain that gheldean, the two rivers and saldea would become one hug nation lol..
I donât think Rand changes his body back. In Aviendhaâs vision of the future, she sees her children and describes them with dark hair, like Moridin.
This is all canon for me now.
lol happy to help!
Awesome post. Nice to cast a view into these plausible avenues! It has been a while for me but I had thought Rand in his new body wasnt powered-up anymore? I felt there was language about him not experiencing the one power and that it was a calming change. Maybe I read it wrong, it has been years since MOL. I bring it up as you have some shapeshifting predictions for him.
Thanks man!! No you are exactly right. He canât channel but he can manipulate the strings of the pattern. Theoretically right itâs not out right said. But itâs a pretty popular fan theory that he learned how to influence the pattern in this way from doing so against the dark one. So if he can light his cigar he can do anything (at least in my mind).
Perfect! I like it!
The Aiel being pulled into the Shara conflict is interesting. Especially after they have kind of gotten a familiarity with conquering. Hell, Tuon and the Seanchan could even encorage/provoke such a venture, as they don't care about Shara but anything that draws away the keepers of the Dragon's Peace from the Westlands is good for the Seanchan Empire.
It's unresolved because Jordan planned to write novels after the main series with Mat and Tuon. There are a ton of hints in the ToM glossary that point to the resolution of that plot line though.
It's been a few years since I've read AMoL, but I would swear that there were pretty big hints that Tuon was at least starting to question her upbringing. Which... feels right. Remember, she has not just lived in but been part of the ruling family of this culture for her entire life. And she has been told that her culture is superior, and so far, fairly little has happened to disabuse her of that notion. So, she meets Mat. She meets Egwene. She watches how the AS act in the last battle. She has a chat with Hawkwing. And.... that should be the beginning of a process. Which is what I see in the books.
I finished AMoL yesterday. She literally jokes about killing Mat in their last conversation since she's pregnant now and no longer needs him for an heir. Pretty bleak outlook on her development if you ask me.
It is a frequently recurring theme in the books that humor does not work well across cultures. Seanchan noble humor and Our World humor might be as incompatible as Aeil and Two Rivers humor.
I don't remember that at all.. all I remember is her telling Egwene that she'll enjoy breaking her. Sounds as sadistic as ever tbh
Nicola, damn it. I expected great things and her character kind of just fizzles out.Â
She deserved better character development!
I know itâs technically resolved, but Padan Fain, honestly. I doubt what ended up happening with him was what was meant to happen. Wouldâve liked to see what Robert had intended and had that resolved more thoroughly.
The only thing RJ intended that he wrote down was "don't make him Gollum" and he didn't even use him in his later books except for that WH(?) appearance.
It does kind of give "I made something I'm not sure what do to with."
While my kneejerk response is ânot all plot points need to be resolved,â Iâd love to have more on Jain.
Farstrider? It's not an unresolved plot point.
Sure, his finale is well executed, but Iâd love to curl up with the entirety of âThe Travels of Jain Farstriderâ
Honesty, is Rand and his wifes, I fell that RJ never thought it through and I hate how Rand just peaced out leaving two pregnant women and 6 kids. I really think that that whole affair deserved to be more flashed out.
Two of them can teleport anywhere in the world, and always know where he is. I doubt heâll be even trying to avoid them, and he couldnât if he tried.
I know, but it still rubbed me the wrong way how it all was not address.
Didnât they lose the bond to him ?
6 kids with two women? Rand is potent lmao
Yeah twins to elayne and four to avi. I think all 6 can channel but the four âalwaysâ channel iirc
He left Min out? :(
This didnât irritate me but part of me was disappointed we didnât get to see Elayneâs experience of actually having âthe babesâ and getting to be a mom, Aes Sedai, queen, and first-sister. I know that it wasnât the point of the story but it felt abrupt emotionally lol HOWEVER it makes sense to me that the story happened the way it did. The end of the world is both a slowly creeping and abrupt thing, Elayne fighting in the last battle at around 6 (?) months pregnant illustrates how desperate the battle was.
I really wanted Setalle Anan to be healed and channel again. Iâd also like to know how Perrin and Faille manage their responsibilities in Saldea and the Two Rivers simultaneously.
> Iâd also like to know how Perrin and Faille manage their responsibilities in Saldea and the Two Rivers simultaneously. Sanderson gave us a clue on that . . . If you remember, right before the Last Battle Perrin made **Tam the Steward Of Two Rivers.** That helps give the reader some nice head canon there.
I feel like she would be weary to return to the white tower with her family and new found disappointment of aes sedai. She definitely should have been healed forthe last battle though
She was burnt out which canât be healed
I'll only believe that if Nynaeve confirms it.
She did per the Companion.
That's what she said.
For me the whole "a group of city people turned so evil that they created a monster somehow" was just never enough for me.
The entire Fain/Mordeth plot feels like one that grew as a cancer within Jordon's own writing. Like he intentionally did not try to link Fain into the master plot structure to represent how his evil is an insidious stain on the pattern. Maybe Jordon was waiting excitedly himself to see how Fain fit into the Last Battle and knew that the answer would emerge as he was writing it.
Yeah, when Mat told Artur Hawkwing to talk with Tuon, I figured heâd tell her to free the damane and go back to Seanchan. Sometimes high fantasy is complicated though, and in a way itâs more satisfying than a Lord of the Rings happily-ever-after ending. I wish when Rand was battling the Dark One he had a quick vision of all the loose ends - who released Padan Fain, who killed Asmodean, that Dashiva was really Aginor, etc. There was one mystery about why young Aes Sedai were selected to be sitters that I never really felt was resolved, but last time I mentioned it the other redditors all felt was it was resolved to their satisfaction so maybe I just missed it.
I think it was important that the Seanchan were still the Seanchan during Randâs battle with the dark one. While Slavery is evil, it is also a very human evil. It was important that Rand chose to save humanity warts and all instead of giving into despair and oblivion like Ishy/Moridin. Also, I think the young sitters were just orders from the heads of the Ajahâs, so when the tower was reunited, there would be no question who keeps their seat and who stepped down.
yes I loved how, while slavery was sick, it was not an evil of the dark one. It was a human evil that he momentarily would have to accept. Uncomfortable decision making that made Rand a better character.
The sitters actually was resolved iirc (on a re read but from last (3rd) time through: all of this is purely from the mainline books, but iâll spoiler it to be safe cause idr exactly when it was discussed. >!The Ajah heads tinkered when the tower split, and made sure that young sitters would be raised to fill gaps in the tower and out. sitters who in theory would be all but puppets for the ajah heads, to then use to reunite the tower. and obviously being young, easy to move aside when the tower was whole, and the hall was then overcrowded. so they could go back to the original sitters. In true WoT fashion, this plan went absolutely horribly and did not work as intended, especially since they didnât expect the rebels to actually march.!< thats my memory/ understanding of it anyway edit: fixed spoiler tag
I have been thinking about Hawkwing's thoughts on damane. The way I see it, Aurtur's opinions on Aes Sedai were quite negative - they had too much unchecked power. The resolution of his seige of Tar Valon included the Tower agreeing to the Three Oaths. His sons, who went across the ocean, shared his opinions on channelers, but had an Aes Sedai who made an a'dam. So, the solution in Seanchan became to collar channelers. I wonder what Aurtur would think of the results on both sides of the ocean. The Three Oaths are imperfect and Aes Sedai remain untrusted. But the a'dam is barbaric and has rested in a society built on slavery. What would he think? What would he advise to Fortuona? I would LOVE to read about that conversation and the aftermath.
Artur Hawkwingâs hardline hatred of Aes Sedai was fanned by Ishamael from his place in Hawkwingâs Court. When Hawkwing died that influence would be gone. Whatâs more, even at his most anti-Aes Sedai Hawkwing showed no particular dislike of Channelers, it was the organization and its members he had a problem with. And finally, Hawkwing rides at the command of the DRAGON. The most Channelingest Channeler to ever Channel. If he had a problem with Channelers or Channeling it probably would have come up at some point in the past eternity his soul has been bound to the Horn.
Yeah, I tried to differentiate by saying Aes Sedai vs channelers in regards to Aurtur (though not his sons). But even so, I'm not sure how much of his actions as a Hero are determined by his own personality and how much by the Horn. I have only the foggiest of memories about Ishamael having influence pre-Eye of the World. And I just did a re-read, including A New Spring. Where is it written about Ishamael being in Hawkwing's court?
Ishmael brags to one of the boys early on that he was there when Hawkwing needed an Aes Sedai healer to live but Ishamael whispered in his ear and the advisors who brought it up were executed. Doesn't really say he was in Hawkwing's court. Just that he inflamed the hatred of Aes Sedai at the end.
Ah. I took that more as his influence in dreams, through his weak (but not weak enough to break) seal. Not as his full, walking and talking presence. But the result is the same.
I do as well. There were probably Darkfriends involved at the court but not Ishamael.
Ishamael was there in flesh, just like he was there in the Prologue, during the Trolloc Wars and after the Rand's birth.
BWB mostly (and the Companion of course).
I'll have to get my hands on them again. I read the BWB once upon a long ago time but I don't think I ever read the Companion.
Man, *The Lord of the Rings* is anything but a happily-ever-after ending.
Is it not? Iâll have to reread. Aragorn becomes a great king over peaceful times. The elves and other immortals go to the undying lands. Many of the hobbits lead successful lives as mayors and other leadership positions. Legolas and Gimli toured the world together. It struck me as âeverything is great nowâ ending.
Frodo can never heal and has to leave Middle-earth behind. Reading the Appendices tells us that the Elves lead Middle-earth or fade into shadows, Dwarves and Hobbits are going to fade away as well, the line of NĂșmenorean kings that follow after Aragorn will eventually dwindle into present-day humans. Sam will outlive his wife and eventually travel the Straight Road to Aman like Frodo did. I mean yes, life goes on and most of the heroes had decent lives after "The End," but it's clear that the glory of Gondor and the NĂșmenoreans will fade over the prevailing centuries and the grandness of Middle-earth will slowly drift into just Earth.
I'd say it's a happy ending for the characters, but a bit of a bittersweet ending for the world. The characters get to lead fairly happy lives and while the world is now at peace, it will never be as grand and epic as it once was, the magic of the world will go and never return.
I'd say that's pretty fair (minus Frodo, of course). The novel hints at this. All the Elves know it for sure: their time is ending. The films make Elrond tell Arwen this explicitly for the sake of the audience, but I think the scene in *The Fellowship of the Ring: Extended Edition* where Sam and Frodo see the party of Elves passing through singing "*A! Elbereth Gilthoniel!*" probably sets it up the best. (I love that track.) It's rather hard to say the characters didn't at least earn their happy endings, though. But that's what makes *The Lord of the Rings* such a popular novel. And likewise, I think, with *The Wheel of Time*.
Everything you just mentioned was resolved though
The tinkers never found the song
There was no song, and never had been. It was resolved in Book 4.
What about the song to make the chora trees grow? I'd always thought that this was the song they were searching for... Rand could have told them, he was singing it in AMOL.
The song is a mythical reference back to the Age of Legends, when things were better. The Aiel at that time sang, and the Tinkers believe it was the singing that made things better, and there was so mythical lost song that caused it. So if they find that song it will bring back this mythical time none of them can even begin to talk about because none of them have been to Rhuidean. The Song of Growing is not the Song. Even if Rand taught it to them it wouldnât be what theyâre looking for.
Ah I see. I didn't realise they were searching for something so specific. I thought they didn't know what exactly the song did and therefore it was obvious for me that it had to be the growing song...
Itâs not obvious, and is a very passing mention in Book 4, but them losing what they were looking for is shown in Randâs trip through Rhuidean. This line: â"We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again." The first Tinker makes no mention of looking for a song. Just finding a place where they can be safe and sing again this has warped into looking for âthe Song.â
It's not specific, it's the opposite. It's not a song at all.
We knew that it isn't it *since EotW*.
None of them irritated me, but the Seanchan plotline is the one that I am dying without a continuation for. I really WANT that continuation, because there's so much potential there that we'll never get. >Her opinion on aes sedai did not change a fraction, despite Matt allegedly hating the adam She was never given a reason to. Throughout the entire series, every channeler she personally met with is either collared or has pissed her off in some way. Nynaeve probably gave her the best impression, and she still yelled at Tuon about her husband (though she was complimenting him so I dunno what she would have thought about that). Elaida certainly wouldn't have helped her impression of the Aes Sedai, because that woman was their fucking leader. She doesn't know the context, so she sees this woman who is literally trying to bargain and offer up her people in exchange for her freedom and that certainly paints a very negative impression of her organization, an impression she already held a negative view of, and Egwene certainly did not help that impression by practically picking a fight with her.
I am irritated that Egwene died because I can't imagine the epic shadow-war between the White Tower and the Crystal Throne. You just know that Seanchan would have been Amerlyn Egwene's top priority. However, Cadsuane will not be nearly as aggressive.
Her opinion didnât change by spending time with Ms because mat literally never challenged her opinion or tried to do anything to change her mind.
Mat is so determinedly a-political it is always infuriating. He always refuses to engage with understanding his own moral code.
literally!
How to recognize an audiobook reader: âMattâ
Or autocorrect
True
exaclty lool, the plus is you can't type anything to spoil the story when listening haha
Everyone should watch the interview with BranSan on the dusty wheel youtube channel. He goes over all that and a lot of other stuff.
Slanderous lies, there are none!!
Look they did a marvelous job concluding the series in most ways, but I think we can admit Harriet/BS made a mistake not course correcting with the Mat/Seanchan stuff when it became clear the sequel series would never happen. As is itâs bad, it just is
honestly, the had three whole books to come up with something too!
I wouldâve accepted even a half-assed conclusion, just like a line or two of dialogue where Tuon is like ââŠhuh okay maybe Iâm wrong about thisâ wouldâve been *way* better than nothing.
They wouldn't be able to fit the entire reclaiming Seanchan/freeing damane post-TG plot line into the pre-TG books, but yeah they could omit plot hooks.
They could have shortened Elayne and perrins pointless plots and at least delved deeper into the suldam who were to become novices.Â
Gonna go with Nakomi That or the pipe
Manatheren. I know Perrin and Tam talk about it and Tam agrees that Perrin should not rebuild Manatheren and that plot point ends there, but I'd have loved to see a conflict between Elayne and Perrin (after the Last Battle of course).
I know not every series can have an extended epilogue like LOtR, but I would've liked an ending not quite so abrupt. Or showing Mat fighting Couladin.
I always wanted to know what happened to the channelers that were forcibly turned to be darkfriends. Is there a way to fix those people? It seems like it did happen to a bunch of ashaman and if they're just evil now, forever, that is a real raw deal.
I would hope/assume nyneave would decidate time to that. She's stubborn enough!