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Aginor and Balthamel always gave me the creeps.
Aginor we don’t see much but he makes the other Foresaken uneasy. As Osan’gar/Dashiva Aginor seems pretty deeply antisocial in that he can’t even engage with people like the other Foresaken do.
Balthamel/Aran’gar/Halima is super rapey which has its own special creepiness.
I’d vote for one of those two, probably with a tiny edge to the mad scientist who required human breeding camps be setup to feed his constructed shock troops.
Aginor and Balthamel I can kind of understand, they must've been driven a bit extra crazy by being almost half-caught like Ishamael. Unable to take action, but aware that you're trapped and cannot do anything but watch, for 3000 years ...
>I'm not sure Asmodean or Moghedien are sociopathic, for example
Asmodean tortured and maimed every musician whose work displeased him. That's certainly psychopathic, as it's inflicting the maximum pain to those musicians.
There are so many former child stars who suffered being exploited by their parents for fame and a fortune that was squandered before they hit their majority. There's probably at least a few who would cheerfully hand their parent over to a Myrdraal after the abuse they suffered or that their parents turned a blind eye to.
I've always pictured Asmodean's mother as a real terror of a stage mom. She recognized his talent as a child, and instead of nurturing his joy in being a musician/composer, she picked apart everything he did, and he knew the exact degree of how his music was never good enough for her. With her, there was no way for him to ever feel like he truly lived up to his potential. She made sure he knew he was always lacking.
His mother was probably the main reason he was so susceptible to serving the dark one. All the dark one had to do was dangle the possibility of his music being recognized as better than everyone else's music so that she would finally have to recognize it too.
If his mother had raised him without demanding that level of perfection from his music, there probably never would have been an Asmodean. He probably would have been content just being Joar Addam. Maybe he earned his third name, maybe not. He might have been an indie darling or the guy who plays in local bars every other weekend.
Hard agree.
One of my headcanon is his mother used compulsion on him as a child to make him work harder.
People severely under play the complete mental breakdown he likely went through and the abuse he was raised into. Asmodean has no self-confidence and few readers note he does not try to take the credit for the March of Death, he wants credits for things he did himself because he feels worthless, not because he is power hungry or ambitious.
I always pictured it as quite similar, but the abusive teacher is his mother and it starts when he is just a little vulnerable kid. I also picture Asmodean's mother as using physical punishments on top of emotional ones which is how Asmodean ends up maiming other artists.... he was basically recreating what he went through in a more "expeditive" manner.
All my "redemption" headcanons go through Asmodean needing to dig into his childhood and come to terms with the fact he was abused, but he should no longer let this abuse define who he is now.
It's my favorite headcanon for his character and one I feel is canon compliant.
I just thought he blamed his mother for not giving birth to a legit super genius or for not worshipping him as a wünderkind enough.
I see no need to build up back stories where Asmodean has reasoning or justification for what he did. He is crazy, like the rest, and that story was meant to highlight his inhumanity.
The Forsaken are not really human. They all went off the deep end to the extreme.
I think that saying means that a soul will eventually get another chance when it is spun out. The Forsaken as they are, frozen in their sin-drenched current forms, are meant to be irredeemable. The only reason Asmodean helped Rand was because he was desperare to stay alive.
Remember: we are only told about *some* of the horrible things he did. You do not get to be Chosen without throwing away anythimg tying you to the Light. That's just not how it works with the Dark One.
Some of the info we have on Asmodean is he earned his third name in music, but didn't actually achieve the level of accomplishment that the Age of Legends had expected him to achieve and he was considered somewhat of a failure.
That to me, and what he did to his mother, makes me think that there was a prophecy about him being a musician that people would remember for thousands and thousands of years to come, setting an impossible duty on his shoulders to be the best in a way that was unattainable, and never actually what the prophecy meant. Since it was referring to him being a feared forsaken, who just happened to play music.
His mother then was probably super awful about making sure he would live up to something he couldn't.
More likely he was a child prodigy who became a fantastic musician as an adult but not quite as good as people expected based on his early successes. People expected him to be the best of the best, but he turned out to not quite reach it. Happens in our world too.
No need for prophecy.
My thoughts are not a prophecy more that the world was slowly collapsing and there you had a magical kid who was insanely talented at something beautiful like music. They all got wrapped up over the idea he was to bring the world into new era, much needed positivity in the world so they pushed and pushed...
Another idea is he was heavily sponsored by wealthy people: he had to bring return on investment. It broke him because he never quite understood what was needed of him and he was so damn young at the time.
Ah and he pretty much text book classic abused kid and former kid genius. Just the way he is written by RJ down to his humor is pretty much it.
Ah, good point, I'd forgotten that and mainly was thinking about his interactions in the books. I think they're probably all sociopaths to some extent.
That's the response former bullied kids sometimes have: the whole you made me suffer so I will take revenge thing.
Asmodean is pretty much a text book classic abused child who just snapped and went on a ramage against those who hurt him: his mom, other musicians.
A true psychopath kills for the enjoyment. Asmodean clearly states in the books being uncomfortable with the killing.
He's an abused bullied kid who grew up and got fed up with the crap everyone kept throwing at him.
I thought she didn't kill during the age of legends,?
I also actually wondered about the ethics of the transactions she made: if it is a net benefit, is it still bad?
If you cure someone from a deadly illness that you alone can cure, and the only price is 2 hours of torture, is that a fair exchange (assuming she is upfront about the cost)
Playing the devil's advocate here for the fun of rhetoric. If it's a net benefit, win win to the individual, society and the sadist, isn't that good?
Or alternatively, trying to force her to swear on the rods would reduce her lifespan, and therefore increase the number of avoidable deaths and diseases in the future. Hence it's criminal to force her to forgo he sadism?
For sure.
One could argue that a sadist satiating their sadism (that was a fun one to write! Haha) isn't beneficial to the sadist any more than an addict taking their drug of choice is good for them.
Also, while she was a success in her field by certain measures, something tells me that her self-assessment as being the only one who was capable of certain healing is probably not as accurate as she'd like, and is an expression of her outsized ego.
She didn't kill before she turned to the Shadow, but after that she started serial killing people. We see her think about this, e.g. for how long people survive after you replace their blood with various liquids, or for how long she can keep a person in constant pain until they die.
The only reason she didn't murder people while being an Aes Sedai was likely that she didn't think she could get away with it, whereas she thought her stellar reputation and exceptional Talent would shield her from complaints about mere pain. Or she thought that the people she Healed would be too grateful to complain.
I feel like the most common trait among the Forsaken is narcissism rather than sociopathy. Sammael, Rahvin, Mesaana, and (IMO) Moghidien are mostly narcissistic. Same with Asmodean, also likely Aginor.
Graendal and Semirhage are probably the most sociopathic; they have their desires and pursue them with utter disregard for the feelings of their victims. People are merely playthings to them; a means to satisfy their desires for pleasure or power. Graendal likes to have her pets fawning over her, but she doesn't get into the actual fawning so much as *making them do it*. She doesn't care about their feelings and, in fact, usually sandblasts their mind so that they can't really have any feelings she doesn't put there. Semirhage wants to be free to play with her toys as well, but their reaction is important. Not what they want, but specifically how they respond to stimuli.
Aran'Gar/Balthamel is probably the same, a sociopath, but not as effective or practiced as the other two in her new body. Creating farms to breed humans to feed trollocs is pretty sociopathic, though, as are Balthamel's other experiments.
In all cases, they sometimes appear genuinely confused when their peers fixate on another person (Lews Therin) rather than what they want for themselves. The other Forsaken put themselves in Rand al'Thor's path deliberately to thwart him or exalt themselves. Graendal goes to the opposite side of the continent, and even then, she hides her location. Semirhage goes to another continent entirely. You could say the same of Demandred, but he's still trying to match Lews Therin, who he cares about, and even has other personal relationships with people he cares about. He spends the last battle screaming, "Fight me, bro." Meanwhile, as soon as Semirhage thinks she has al'Thor secured, she goes back to what *she* enjoys doing, which is causing anguish. You could say that Moghidien and Mesaana also hide from al'Thor like Graendal, but they also pick enemies and fixate on them. Moghidien cares about Nyneave's feelings and wants to hurt them. Mesaana is the most "for the cause" Forsaken. Even if her ultimate goal is her own power, it's power within the structure created by the Dark.
This is a fun question! A less fun question is, "Why is it always the women, Robert?"
I agree that it’s almost all narcissism for the Forsaken. It fits with Verin’s Theroem.
Lanfear wanted a third name and the prestige that came with it. She’s not obsessed with LTT but obsessed with the idea of having the most powerful man in the world answer to her whims. We’re expressly told that Greandal is obsessed with power and ordering everything as she wants. The hedonism is an act to cover up her real desires. Demandred everyone to see him beat LTT.
I was just commenting on the fact that, except for Balthamel, who becomes a woman, the only creepy sociopaths among the main characters are women. Robert Jordan's writing of women has received some valid criticism, and that coincidence seems like it could be related, but I don't really know. Almost all the male Forsaken are basically trying to have a dick measuring contest with Lews Therin, while the women include a wider range of indeosyncrasies and motivations, including at least two of whom I would describe as sociopaths. I think it's at least an interesting question.
I would place Rahvin among the creepy sociopaths. “ People are merely playthings to them; a means to satisfy their desires for pleasure or power,” describes Rahvin’s rape harrems perfectly to me.
Sammael uses literal former humans as literal playthings and Aginor is the quintessential sociopath Biologist.
There are certainly valid criticisms about how Robert Jordan handled gender, but male Forsaken not being sociopaths is not one of them.
> "Why is it always the women, Robert?"
See also female baddies often ending as slaves (often with a rapey undertone) rather than just being killed. Liandrin, Suroth, Sevanna, Galina, Elaida, Moghedien - I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting.
Honestly this probably stems from the fact that he wrote so many villains. Write too many and you dont have enough screen time to fully flesh them all out; next thing you know people are trying to pick at the fact that some of them are a bit alike
Yes. /u/GovernorZipper referred to it as Verin's Theorem. Not a professional, but to my understanding, I think selfishness is a common trait between narcissism and sociopathy, but narcissism is like "main character energy" while sociopathy is more "other people are like dolls."
Here's a link of unknown provenance, but it seems authoritative and was easy to find on google: [Talkspace: Sociopath vs Narcissist](https://www.talkspace.com/mental-health/conditions/articles/sociopath-vs-narcissist/)
I don't view all of them as narcissists... Asmodean, Moghedien, Sammael do not strike me as narcissics.
Asmodean is a former abused kid with low self-esteem who believes he has to be the best to be worth something. A narcissic believes he is the best and can do no wrong.
Moghedien is a crime boss who wants a profit for herself and believes if someone is willing to pay for it, she'll provide.
Sammael is a competitive jock who wants to fight straigth on to determine who is the best. He wants to prove he can beat the best.
None of them are narcissics. Narcissics think the world revolve around them, they believe they are immune to mistakes and they think they are owed what they want. The real narcissics within the Forsaken are Lanfear, Demandred and Graendal to a lesser extend. The other ones have "other issues".
Hmm, I wonder where some of these characteristics come from. Do you have textual references to flesh them out?
I never got the "I have to prove my worth" sense from Asmodean, more like he had his own goals and did what was necessary to achieve them. He wanted revenge on the other musicians who he felt slighted him, not acknowledgment from them. Moghedien didn't seem like a crime boss as much a a spy master. She wanted acclaim, but she didn't want to risk exposure. I feel like your description is mercenary in a way that doesn't agree with my remembrance. Elaine and Nyneave talk about her terror, not her ambition. She's not trying to switch sides when they capture her, instead she's trying to escape. Finally, I think Sammael *sees himself* as the best. He's not trying to defeat the Dragon for the challenge of it. That jock stereotype you're referencing *is* fundamentally narcissistic.
Elsewhere, I described narcissism as "main character energy" versus sociopathy, which is more "other people are things." Main character energy definitely describes Demandred and Lanfear, and I would argue (above) that includes Sammael, Moghedien, and Asmodean. Graendal is the latter. Her goal is her own amusement and comfort, and the Dark is just the best method of getting that because compulsion is the best method of getting people to do what she wants. She's not actually trying to make anyone like her or respect her or even fear her; she just decides whether they're appropriate for her collection and makes it happen. She fills her pets' minds with adoration because it's a pleasant default, not because she wants to change their minds about her. That may as well be Barbie dolls. Social relationships don't make sense or matter to her.
IMO the Shadow is basically the Jungian Shadow in psychology, the repressed part of a person's self, the opposite of how they originally wanted to be and be perceived. That's why Graendal, who was an ascetic, became a hedonist. That's why Demandred, Sammael and Be'lal were all so consumed by envy of LTT, because they were all highly successful people who repressed their own egos to serve under LTT. That's why Lanfear was so obsessed with LTT, because she had repressed her true feelings for him due to pride and ambition. And then we have Semirhage, who was a true sociopath from the beginning and never bothered to repress anything.
I think you're a little off in your evaluation of Graendal. My read, especially toward the end, is that -- though she definitely is a hedonist to some extent -- she plays it up to the other Forsaken so they underestimate her. As she does with her Compulsion, she really lays it on thick. But it's all an act to make her look a lot simpler than she actually is. Considering the way Ishamael and Lanfear are burdened by their baggage and most of the rest get wrecked by Rand et al with relative ease (sometimes twice!), I would say Graendal quietly has an argument for being the second-most-effective Forsaken after Demandred. And there's definitely sociopathy in the deeply calculated way she portrays herself, not to mention how she doesn't care about absolutely wrecking people's minds.
That's a great point. She is subtle and crafty in that she thinks through how every Foresaken is going to perceive what she does before she does it, and acts in ways to try to manipulate them. Nice analysis here.
Graendal is weird. According to the BWB she was an ascetic. I imagine her both holding humans to a high standard and recognizing that their mindless self indulgence is the source of the majority of their discomfort. They would be better off if they held themselves to her standard.
She almost wears everything she hates about humanity as a skin suit, and while she enjoys the self indulgence she can also discard it without any hesitation. She is driven primarily by disappointment with humanity; they are incapable of serving themselves, so they may as well serve her.
She found people interesting enough to study and understand deeply, and now she ruthlessly crushes everything interesting about them and makes them her puppets.
She genuinely sees herself as being better than others, and for the most part she is not wrong. She is easily the most dangerous of the Forsaken, simply because she tries to get them to work together to eliminate Rand.
I used to think Ishamael was the most interesting of the Forsaken, but it's Graendal by a country mile.
I think trying to riddle out which of the Forsaken were fucked in the head maybe harder to pin down since they all had their own reasons to join the Shadow. Some joined for power, some for the perceived pain the light brought them. But my boy, Ishamael, calculated the odds of the forces of light winning the mortal kombat tourney 100% of the time, for all time and assumed that the forces of light were doomed and thus choose his fate with the statically accurate side. And to be fair, his choosing was still considered "for the greater good" since Ishamael would re- imagined the world void of the light and the shadow.
I actually think Ishamael had some pretty compelling arguments, but that's a different story lol. He was basically a mixture of a nihilist, a buddhist, and a psychotic killer all rolled in one :p
I always picture Ishamael as the ultimate emo/goth. He is like some first year college student who took intro to psychology and thinks he’s an expert now.
Ishamael was the first of the chosen because he knew that at some point the universe would fall to the Great Lord and so there wasn’t any reason to resist.
I thought the counter to that is:
Since the DO will burn the pattern if he wins, the simple fact the world exists at any point in time means that the pattern has never been destroyed and never will?
Id have Graendal as the third most sociopathic because she's so narcissistic that when she finds people more beautiful than her she uses compulsion to make them her pets.
Semirhage is second of course, because she's the worst sadist who ever live.
Id rank Ishaemal as the most because he is a complete nihilist and seeks to destroy the universe just to break the cycle. He was also the only Forsaken to use the True Power on a minutely basis, which the others were reluctant to use.
I think attempting to apply our understanding of (and labels for) mental illness to the forsaken is not going to work. They are from an entirely different culture and are warped by power beyond imagining. Our labels just won’t apply like they do to contemporary humans (and by the way, our labels don’t work that great for modern humans either).
Yeah, I get that. I also have some criticism of classification of mental illness, myself. I was just bored and this was kind of a fun, not too serious musing from the brain of a therapist who loves the series, lol.
I think RJ’s characters (forsaken included) are just depictions of real life earth humans. So i think it is an interesting question. I agree we don’t have mental illness and labels figured out, but the only way we get closer is with discussions.
True, but modern humans live in such different societies that US definitions of mental illness don’t apply very well across cultures. It just seems a stretch that they would apply to AoL culture.
Mental illness is pretty universal amongst humans, across cultures and time. True it is viewed differently, but the illness is the same. Any story ever written is an expression of the human experience. Stands to reason that the issues are the same. If you read the forsaken without seeing narcissistic sociopaths, well forgive me if I think you might be missing something.
Yeah but it’s just not. There are culturally specific illnesses. Don’t take my word for it though. Go get your PhD in psychology and specialize in psychopathology assessment.
My perspective is coming from a love of literature and themes. RJ was an American author and I think it is plausible that mental illness was a theme with the forsaken. If I am wrong about the cultural stuff, my apology. It sucks if it is your field and I am telling you what is what. I am sorry. Take care.
I don’t really see mental illness as a theme of WoT though. There are of course male channelers who lose themselves and become violently destructive and wolf-brothers who lose themselves in their connection to wolves; but neither of these conditions bears much resemblance to any particular mental illness we know of (partly because of the varied presentations of male channelers’ “madness” and partially because we aren’t really provided with the full course or etiology).
That’s fair. A lot of psych words get thrown around these days in bad context. As much as I am for awareness and discussions, it has gotten out of hand.
They are based on modern humans, who exist in our world/ time who's technology with the help of magic lead to a utopian society, so it's not inaccurate- there are several refrences with relics found that you could find irl. Its referenced multiple times throughout the series.
Notice I didn’t say not from our world. I said from an entirely different culture. Our notions of mental illness are already pretty culturally specific… they absolutely would not cleanly translate to people living in the age of legends.
I think that since spesific things that people could recognize from the last 20 years- such as a car brand decal existing in WoT is pretty indicative that the "age of legends" is basically the modern world as we know it + magic. If you think about how luxurious modern life would be to a medieval peasant, plus magic has allowed us to bypass war and famine, that would be a thing of legend comparatively. And it's a very common theme in WoT that things are not as good as they seem, and people/ events get warped and exaggerated by time so its entirely possible the "age of legends" is not all that incredibly amazing to a modern day human living in a first world country
Idk… those relics could have been ancient by the time AoL happened. Also, they had magical gardeners who could sing to plants and doctors who could heal any illness (mental or physical)… I think AoL was a bit better than just a better version of our first world societies.
Well yes they would be ancient, and we have ancient relics of modern humans that date back over 10 thousand years, so I dont know why you think that is unrealistic? but they are there non the less, character pick them up and examine them, so even if it is hard to believe Jordan left pretty clear indicators.
>Also, they had magical gardeners who could sing to plants and doctors who could heal any illness (mental or physical)…
Ah yes the + magic part that I mentioned.... also the amount of medical knowledge we have today, even how it developed over the last 20 years is insane. It is so incredible it seems unbeliveable to some people who live with it today... see antivaxxers/ new age medicine type people.
I'm sorry you dont like to read the books as they were intended and ignore what the author has written that spells out the lore and history of the story.
I’ve read the series more times than most people on this thread. I know how the author describes the AoL. I don’t think he was going for “America but a little nicer” as you suggest. I know our history is also the past/future of the books; but that doesn’t mean our history/present was anywhere near the pinnacle of the AoL. Prove me wrong.
Lmao I wouldnt put America at the pinical of modern society, but some place like Sweden which has much stronger social programs and better rehabilitation programs for people who break the law then sure, you get something close to utopia. I think you are taking modern achievements for granted compared to how medieval humans lived. Like going to the moon? That doesnt sound like a legendary feat? He may not have meant the world literally today exactly as we know it, but in the same way a lot of scifi stuff from that era were all "in the not so distant future of 2050" type of deal. If it was supposed to be the far off distant future there wouldnt be any sense in putting a relic that we would be able to recognize, as we wouldnt have any context for what that relic is.
Look how far technology has advanced in the last century, it's no wonder that it captures the human imagination to wonder where we will be in only another hundred years.
Lanfear: spoiled princess no one ever said no to who expects the world to obey her every whim
Asmodean: abused kid
Demandred and Graendal: narcissic
Semirhage and Aginor: psychopaths
Balthamel and Ravhin: rapists
Moghedien: mafia boss
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Aginor and Balthamel always gave me the creeps. Aginor we don’t see much but he makes the other Foresaken uneasy. As Osan’gar/Dashiva Aginor seems pretty deeply antisocial in that he can’t even engage with people like the other Foresaken do. Balthamel/Aran’gar/Halima is super rapey which has its own special creepiness. I’d vote for one of those two, probably with a tiny edge to the mad scientist who required human breeding camps be setup to feed his constructed shock troops.
Aginor made the Trolloc’s, and other shadowspawn. Distorting men into man-beast hybrids seems pretty sociopathic to me…
The true Scotsman of the forsaken.
Well by that standard all biologists are sociopathic. Geez, can't even move the needle without getting labeled slanderous terms
However, we do get the running background joke of Dashiva being super incompetent at everything related to pre-industrial technology.
Aginor and Balthamel I can kind of understand, they must've been driven a bit extra crazy by being almost half-caught like Ishamael. Unable to take action, but aware that you're trapped and cannot do anything but watch, for 3000 years ...
>I'm not sure Asmodean or Moghedien are sociopathic, for example Asmodean tortured and maimed every musician whose work displeased him. That's certainly psychopathic, as it's inflicting the maximum pain to those musicians.
He also stilled his own mother and gave her to a Myrdraal to be raped and killed. That’s a detail which has always made me wonder about his backstory.
There are so many former child stars who suffered being exploited by their parents for fame and a fortune that was squandered before they hit their majority. There's probably at least a few who would cheerfully hand their parent over to a Myrdraal after the abuse they suffered or that their parents turned a blind eye to. I've always pictured Asmodean's mother as a real terror of a stage mom. She recognized his talent as a child, and instead of nurturing his joy in being a musician/composer, she picked apart everything he did, and he knew the exact degree of how his music was never good enough for her. With her, there was no way for him to ever feel like he truly lived up to his potential. She made sure he knew he was always lacking. His mother was probably the main reason he was so susceptible to serving the dark one. All the dark one had to do was dangle the possibility of his music being recognized as better than everyone else's music so that she would finally have to recognize it too. If his mother had raised him without demanding that level of perfection from his music, there probably never would have been an Asmodean. He probably would have been content just being Joar Addam. Maybe he earned his third name, maybe not. He might have been an indie darling or the guy who plays in local bars every other weekend.
Hard agree. One of my headcanon is his mother used compulsion on him as a child to make him work harder. People severely under play the complete mental breakdown he likely went through and the abuse he was raised into. Asmodean has no self-confidence and few readers note he does not try to take the credit for the March of Death, he wants credits for things he did himself because he feels worthless, not because he is power hungry or ambitious.
Wow, Asmodean's backstory as the plot of Whiplash is not something I ever thought about, but it makes a lot of sense!
I always pictured it as quite similar, but the abusive teacher is his mother and it starts when he is just a little vulnerable kid. I also picture Asmodean's mother as using physical punishments on top of emotional ones which is how Asmodean ends up maiming other artists.... he was basically recreating what he went through in a more "expeditive" manner. All my "redemption" headcanons go through Asmodean needing to dig into his childhood and come to terms with the fact he was abused, but he should no longer let this abuse define who he is now. It's my favorite headcanon for his character and one I feel is canon compliant.
I just thought he blamed his mother for not giving birth to a legit super genius or for not worshipping him as a wünderkind enough. I see no need to build up back stories where Asmodean has reasoning or justification for what he did. He is crazy, like the rest, and that story was meant to highlight his inhumanity. The Forsaken are not really human. They all went off the deep end to the extreme.
"No man can walk so long in the Shadow that he cannot come again to the Light."
I think that saying means that a soul will eventually get another chance when it is spun out. The Forsaken as they are, frozen in their sin-drenched current forms, are meant to be irredeemable. The only reason Asmodean helped Rand was because he was desperare to stay alive. Remember: we are only told about *some* of the horrible things he did. You do not get to be Chosen without throwing away anythimg tying you to the Light. That's just not how it works with the Dark One.
Some of the info we have on Asmodean is he earned his third name in music, but didn't actually achieve the level of accomplishment that the Age of Legends had expected him to achieve and he was considered somewhat of a failure. That to me, and what he did to his mother, makes me think that there was a prophecy about him being a musician that people would remember for thousands and thousands of years to come, setting an impossible duty on his shoulders to be the best in a way that was unattainable, and never actually what the prophecy meant. Since it was referring to him being a feared forsaken, who just happened to play music. His mother then was probably super awful about making sure he would live up to something he couldn't.
More likely he was a child prodigy who became a fantastic musician as an adult but not quite as good as people expected based on his early successes. People expected him to be the best of the best, but he turned out to not quite reach it. Happens in our world too. No need for prophecy.
My thoughts are not a prophecy more that the world was slowly collapsing and there you had a magical kid who was insanely talented at something beautiful like music. They all got wrapped up over the idea he was to bring the world into new era, much needed positivity in the world so they pushed and pushed... Another idea is he was heavily sponsored by wealthy people: he had to bring return on investment. It broke him because he never quite understood what was needed of him and he was so damn young at the time. Ah and he pretty much text book classic abused kid and former kid genius. Just the way he is written by RJ down to his humor is pretty much it.
Yes he clearly had some mommy issues.
Ah, good point, I'd forgotten that and mainly was thinking about his interactions in the books. I think they're probably all sociopaths to some extent.
Is this mentioned in the books or somewhere else? Just curious because I don’t remember it.
Lanfear said something like "don't get too comfortable with him, he severed his own mother and gave her to the Fades for sport" in Fires of Heaven.
Now that part I remember.
I think it's in FoH. That's where I remember his backstory as being, anyway
The bit about torturing and maiming musicians comes from the world of Robert jordan's wheel of time by Robert Jordan and Teresa Patterson.
Thanks.
That's the response former bullied kids sometimes have: the whole you made me suffer so I will take revenge thing. Asmodean is pretty much a text book classic abused child who just snapped and went on a ramage against those who hurt him: his mom, other musicians. A true psychopath kills for the enjoyment. Asmodean clearly states in the books being uncomfortable with the killing. He's an abused bullied kid who grew up and got fed up with the crap everyone kept throwing at him.
Semirhage. Definitely Semirhage.
Nah, she's not a sociopath. She's a sadistic serial killer psychopath. Way beyond just being sociopathic.
I thought she didn't kill during the age of legends,? I also actually wondered about the ethics of the transactions she made: if it is a net benefit, is it still bad? If you cure someone from a deadly illness that you alone can cure, and the only price is 2 hours of torture, is that a fair exchange (assuming she is upfront about the cost)
Yes, it's still bad, ethically. That's not to say some would t gladly pay, but a willing victim doesn't change the ethics or morality of it.
Playing the devil's advocate here for the fun of rhetoric. If it's a net benefit, win win to the individual, society and the sadist, isn't that good? Or alternatively, trying to force her to swear on the rods would reduce her lifespan, and therefore increase the number of avoidable deaths and diseases in the future. Hence it's criminal to force her to forgo he sadism?
For sure. One could argue that a sadist satiating their sadism (that was a fun one to write! Haha) isn't beneficial to the sadist any more than an addict taking their drug of choice is good for them. Also, while she was a success in her field by certain measures, something tells me that her self-assessment as being the only one who was capable of certain healing is probably not as accurate as she'd like, and is an expression of her outsized ego.
She didn't kill before she turned to the Shadow, but after that she started serial killing people. We see her think about this, e.g. for how long people survive after you replace their blood with various liquids, or for how long she can keep a person in constant pain until they die. The only reason she didn't murder people while being an Aes Sedai was likely that she didn't think she could get away with it, whereas she thought her stellar reputation and exceptional Talent would shield her from complaints about mere pain. Or she thought that the people she Healed would be too grateful to complain.
Agreed she is a really nasty piece of shit. I was just referring to the ethics of her actions during the AoL.
I would have agreed if she could cure my cancer. 2 hours of torture versus a year of chemo and five surgeries? Sure!
I think Rahvin was either a sociopath or a psychopath
I think that's a safe bet.
He's just a rapist. He is a pimp.
I feel like the most common trait among the Forsaken is narcissism rather than sociopathy. Sammael, Rahvin, Mesaana, and (IMO) Moghidien are mostly narcissistic. Same with Asmodean, also likely Aginor. Graendal and Semirhage are probably the most sociopathic; they have their desires and pursue them with utter disregard for the feelings of their victims. People are merely playthings to them; a means to satisfy their desires for pleasure or power. Graendal likes to have her pets fawning over her, but she doesn't get into the actual fawning so much as *making them do it*. She doesn't care about their feelings and, in fact, usually sandblasts their mind so that they can't really have any feelings she doesn't put there. Semirhage wants to be free to play with her toys as well, but their reaction is important. Not what they want, but specifically how they respond to stimuli. Aran'Gar/Balthamel is probably the same, a sociopath, but not as effective or practiced as the other two in her new body. Creating farms to breed humans to feed trollocs is pretty sociopathic, though, as are Balthamel's other experiments. In all cases, they sometimes appear genuinely confused when their peers fixate on another person (Lews Therin) rather than what they want for themselves. The other Forsaken put themselves in Rand al'Thor's path deliberately to thwart him or exalt themselves. Graendal goes to the opposite side of the continent, and even then, she hides her location. Semirhage goes to another continent entirely. You could say the same of Demandred, but he's still trying to match Lews Therin, who he cares about, and even has other personal relationships with people he cares about. He spends the last battle screaming, "Fight me, bro." Meanwhile, as soon as Semirhage thinks she has al'Thor secured, she goes back to what *she* enjoys doing, which is causing anguish. You could say that Moghidien and Mesaana also hide from al'Thor like Graendal, but they also pick enemies and fixate on them. Moghidien cares about Nyneave's feelings and wants to hurt them. Mesaana is the most "for the cause" Forsaken. Even if her ultimate goal is her own power, it's power within the structure created by the Dark. This is a fun question! A less fun question is, "Why is it always the women, Robert?"
I agree that it’s almost all narcissism for the Forsaken. It fits with Verin’s Theroem. Lanfear wanted a third name and the prestige that came with it. She’s not obsessed with LTT but obsessed with the idea of having the most powerful man in the world answer to her whims. We’re expressly told that Greandal is obsessed with power and ordering everything as she wants. The hedonism is an act to cover up her real desires. Demandred everyone to see him beat LTT.
Not sure i follow your last bit
I was just commenting on the fact that, except for Balthamel, who becomes a woman, the only creepy sociopaths among the main characters are women. Robert Jordan's writing of women has received some valid criticism, and that coincidence seems like it could be related, but I don't really know. Almost all the male Forsaken are basically trying to have a dick measuring contest with Lews Therin, while the women include a wider range of indeosyncrasies and motivations, including at least two of whom I would describe as sociopaths. I think it's at least an interesting question.
I would place Rahvin among the creepy sociopaths. “ People are merely playthings to them; a means to satisfy their desires for pleasure or power,” describes Rahvin’s rape harrems perfectly to me.
Sammael uses literal former humans as literal playthings and Aginor is the quintessential sociopath Biologist. There are certainly valid criticisms about how Robert Jordan handled gender, but male Forsaken not being sociopaths is not one of them.
> "Why is it always the women, Robert?" See also female baddies often ending as slaves (often with a rapey undertone) rather than just being killed. Liandrin, Suroth, Sevanna, Galina, Elaida, Moghedien - I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting.
You mean the guy that has a huge hang up about killing women doesn't like to kill women in his books? Odd.
Because a lifetime of rape slavery is better than a quick death? Sure.
Honestly this probably stems from the fact that he wrote so many villains. Write too many and you dont have enough screen time to fully flesh them all out; next thing you know people are trying to pick at the fact that some of them are a bit alike
Was it Verin who figured out about selfishness making the Forsaken who they were? And that helped explain why they weren’t more effective?
Yes. /u/GovernorZipper referred to it as Verin's Theorem. Not a professional, but to my understanding, I think selfishness is a common trait between narcissism and sociopathy, but narcissism is like "main character energy" while sociopathy is more "other people are like dolls." Here's a link of unknown provenance, but it seems authoritative and was easy to find on google: [Talkspace: Sociopath vs Narcissist](https://www.talkspace.com/mental-health/conditions/articles/sociopath-vs-narcissist/)
I don't view all of them as narcissists... Asmodean, Moghedien, Sammael do not strike me as narcissics. Asmodean is a former abused kid with low self-esteem who believes he has to be the best to be worth something. A narcissic believes he is the best and can do no wrong. Moghedien is a crime boss who wants a profit for herself and believes if someone is willing to pay for it, she'll provide. Sammael is a competitive jock who wants to fight straigth on to determine who is the best. He wants to prove he can beat the best. None of them are narcissics. Narcissics think the world revolve around them, they believe they are immune to mistakes and they think they are owed what they want. The real narcissics within the Forsaken are Lanfear, Demandred and Graendal to a lesser extend. The other ones have "other issues".
Hmm, I wonder where some of these characteristics come from. Do you have textual references to flesh them out? I never got the "I have to prove my worth" sense from Asmodean, more like he had his own goals and did what was necessary to achieve them. He wanted revenge on the other musicians who he felt slighted him, not acknowledgment from them. Moghedien didn't seem like a crime boss as much a a spy master. She wanted acclaim, but she didn't want to risk exposure. I feel like your description is mercenary in a way that doesn't agree with my remembrance. Elaine and Nyneave talk about her terror, not her ambition. She's not trying to switch sides when they capture her, instead she's trying to escape. Finally, I think Sammael *sees himself* as the best. He's not trying to defeat the Dragon for the challenge of it. That jock stereotype you're referencing *is* fundamentally narcissistic. Elsewhere, I described narcissism as "main character energy" versus sociopathy, which is more "other people are things." Main character energy definitely describes Demandred and Lanfear, and I would argue (above) that includes Sammael, Moghedien, and Asmodean. Graendal is the latter. Her goal is her own amusement and comfort, and the Dark is just the best method of getting that because compulsion is the best method of getting people to do what she wants. She's not actually trying to make anyone like her or respect her or even fear her; she just decides whether they're appropriate for her collection and makes it happen. She fills her pets' minds with adoration because it's a pleasant default, not because she wants to change their minds about her. That may as well be Barbie dolls. Social relationships don't make sense or matter to her.
IMO the Shadow is basically the Jungian Shadow in psychology, the repressed part of a person's self, the opposite of how they originally wanted to be and be perceived. That's why Graendal, who was an ascetic, became a hedonist. That's why Demandred, Sammael and Be'lal were all so consumed by envy of LTT, because they were all highly successful people who repressed their own egos to serve under LTT. That's why Lanfear was so obsessed with LTT, because she had repressed her true feelings for him due to pride and ambition. And then we have Semirhage, who was a true sociopath from the beginning and never bothered to repress anything.
I think you're a little off in your evaluation of Graendal. My read, especially toward the end, is that -- though she definitely is a hedonist to some extent -- she plays it up to the other Forsaken so they underestimate her. As she does with her Compulsion, she really lays it on thick. But it's all an act to make her look a lot simpler than she actually is. Considering the way Ishamael and Lanfear are burdened by their baggage and most of the rest get wrecked by Rand et al with relative ease (sometimes twice!), I would say Graendal quietly has an argument for being the second-most-effective Forsaken after Demandred. And there's definitely sociopathy in the deeply calculated way she portrays herself, not to mention how she doesn't care about absolutely wrecking people's minds.
That's a great point. She is subtle and crafty in that she thinks through how every Foresaken is going to perceive what she does before she does it, and acts in ways to try to manipulate them. Nice analysis here.
Graendal is weird. According to the BWB she was an ascetic. I imagine her both holding humans to a high standard and recognizing that their mindless self indulgence is the source of the majority of their discomfort. They would be better off if they held themselves to her standard. She almost wears everything she hates about humanity as a skin suit, and while she enjoys the self indulgence she can also discard it without any hesitation. She is driven primarily by disappointment with humanity; they are incapable of serving themselves, so they may as well serve her. She found people interesting enough to study and understand deeply, and now she ruthlessly crushes everything interesting about them and makes them her puppets. She genuinely sees herself as being better than others, and for the most part she is not wrong. She is easily the most dangerous of the Forsaken, simply because she tries to get them to work together to eliminate Rand. I used to think Ishamael was the most interesting of the Forsaken, but it's Graendal by a country mile.
I think trying to riddle out which of the Forsaken were fucked in the head maybe harder to pin down since they all had their own reasons to join the Shadow. Some joined for power, some for the perceived pain the light brought them. But my boy, Ishamael, calculated the odds of the forces of light winning the mortal kombat tourney 100% of the time, for all time and assumed that the forces of light were doomed and thus choose his fate with the statically accurate side. And to be fair, his choosing was still considered "for the greater good" since Ishamael would re- imagined the world void of the light and the shadow.
I actually think Ishamael had some pretty compelling arguments, but that's a different story lol. He was basically a mixture of a nihilist, a buddhist, and a psychotic killer all rolled in one :p
Statistician, don't forget that one. Lol
I always picture Ishamael as the ultimate emo/goth. He is like some first year college student who took intro to psychology and thinks he’s an expert now.
Ishamael was the first of the chosen because he knew that at some point the universe would fall to the Great Lord and so there wasn’t any reason to resist.
I thought the counter to that is: Since the DO will burn the pattern if he wins, the simple fact the world exists at any point in time means that the pattern has never been destroyed and never will?
Yeah, that’s the truth. But he was a nihilist.
Lanfear basically skinned someone because she was having a tantrum. Thats pretty bad :p
Id have Graendal as the third most sociopathic because she's so narcissistic that when she finds people more beautiful than her she uses compulsion to make them her pets. Semirhage is second of course, because she's the worst sadist who ever live. Id rank Ishaemal as the most because he is a complete nihilist and seeks to destroy the universe just to break the cycle. He was also the only Forsaken to use the True Power on a minutely basis, which the others were reluctant to use.
I think attempting to apply our understanding of (and labels for) mental illness to the forsaken is not going to work. They are from an entirely different culture and are warped by power beyond imagining. Our labels just won’t apply like they do to contemporary humans (and by the way, our labels don’t work that great for modern humans either).
Yeah, I get that. I also have some criticism of classification of mental illness, myself. I was just bored and this was kind of a fun, not too serious musing from the brain of a therapist who loves the series, lol.
That's fair (: I think some of the other characters in WoT might qualify for various personality disorders :p
I think RJ’s characters (forsaken included) are just depictions of real life earth humans. So i think it is an interesting question. I agree we don’t have mental illness and labels figured out, but the only way we get closer is with discussions.
True that!
True, but modern humans live in such different societies that US definitions of mental illness don’t apply very well across cultures. It just seems a stretch that they would apply to AoL culture.
Mental illness is pretty universal amongst humans, across cultures and time. True it is viewed differently, but the illness is the same. Any story ever written is an expression of the human experience. Stands to reason that the issues are the same. If you read the forsaken without seeing narcissistic sociopaths, well forgive me if I think you might be missing something.
Yeah but it’s just not. There are culturally specific illnesses. Don’t take my word for it though. Go get your PhD in psychology and specialize in psychopathology assessment.
I might take your word for it if you are educated in that fashion. Are you?
I am.
My perspective is coming from a love of literature and themes. RJ was an American author and I think it is plausible that mental illness was a theme with the forsaken. If I am wrong about the cultural stuff, my apology. It sucks if it is your field and I am telling you what is what. I am sorry. Take care.
I don’t really see mental illness as a theme of WoT though. There are of course male channelers who lose themselves and become violently destructive and wolf-brothers who lose themselves in their connection to wolves; but neither of these conditions bears much resemblance to any particular mental illness we know of (partly because of the varied presentations of male channelers’ “madness” and partially because we aren’t really provided with the full course or etiology).
If expecting exploration of mental illness in literature to look like a psych text book, yeah you have a point.
I’m not expecting that, just stating the limitations on the info RJ provides that would have allowed the kinds of comparisons OP referred to.
That’s fair. A lot of psych words get thrown around these days in bad context. As much as I am for awareness and discussions, it has gotten out of hand.
They are based on modern humans, who exist in our world/ time who's technology with the help of magic lead to a utopian society, so it's not inaccurate- there are several refrences with relics found that you could find irl. Its referenced multiple times throughout the series.
Notice I didn’t say not from our world. I said from an entirely different culture. Our notions of mental illness are already pretty culturally specific… they absolutely would not cleanly translate to people living in the age of legends.
I think that since spesific things that people could recognize from the last 20 years- such as a car brand decal existing in WoT is pretty indicative that the "age of legends" is basically the modern world as we know it + magic. If you think about how luxurious modern life would be to a medieval peasant, plus magic has allowed us to bypass war and famine, that would be a thing of legend comparatively. And it's a very common theme in WoT that things are not as good as they seem, and people/ events get warped and exaggerated by time so its entirely possible the "age of legends" is not all that incredibly amazing to a modern day human living in a first world country
Idk… those relics could have been ancient by the time AoL happened. Also, they had magical gardeners who could sing to plants and doctors who could heal any illness (mental or physical)… I think AoL was a bit better than just a better version of our first world societies.
Well yes they would be ancient, and we have ancient relics of modern humans that date back over 10 thousand years, so I dont know why you think that is unrealistic? but they are there non the less, character pick them up and examine them, so even if it is hard to believe Jordan left pretty clear indicators. >Also, they had magical gardeners who could sing to plants and doctors who could heal any illness (mental or physical)… Ah yes the + magic part that I mentioned.... also the amount of medical knowledge we have today, even how it developed over the last 20 years is insane. It is so incredible it seems unbeliveable to some people who live with it today... see antivaxxers/ new age medicine type people.
How you read the AoL is cool for you; but I’d rather read it as an age so far beyond what we recognize as civilized that it really is legendary.
I'm sorry you dont like to read the books as they were intended and ignore what the author has written that spells out the lore and history of the story.
I’ve read the series more times than most people on this thread. I know how the author describes the AoL. I don’t think he was going for “America but a little nicer” as you suggest. I know our history is also the past/future of the books; but that doesn’t mean our history/present was anywhere near the pinnacle of the AoL. Prove me wrong.
Lmao I wouldnt put America at the pinical of modern society, but some place like Sweden which has much stronger social programs and better rehabilitation programs for people who break the law then sure, you get something close to utopia. I think you are taking modern achievements for granted compared to how medieval humans lived. Like going to the moon? That doesnt sound like a legendary feat? He may not have meant the world literally today exactly as we know it, but in the same way a lot of scifi stuff from that era were all "in the not so distant future of 2050" type of deal. If it was supposed to be the far off distant future there wouldnt be any sense in putting a relic that we would be able to recognize, as we wouldnt have any context for what that relic is. Look how far technology has advanced in the last century, it's no wonder that it captures the human imagination to wonder where we will be in only another hundred years.
Ishamael always struck me as depressed and nihilistic.
Me
Lanfear: spoiled princess no one ever said no to who expects the world to obey her every whim Asmodean: abused kid Demandred and Graendal: narcissic Semirhage and Aginor: psychopaths Balthamel and Ravhin: rapists Moghedien: mafia boss
Everyone forgetting about my boy Belal.