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Here's what Jordan had to say.
> TED HERMAN
>
> Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?
>
> ROBERT JORDAN
>
> I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature. It is the Dark One in shadowy form.
>
> TED HERMAN
>
> Is it twenty-four seven, or just part time?
>
> ROBERT JORDAN
>
> Twenty-four seven.
>
This. The DO is able to somehow see and interact (in a very limited way) through Shaidar Haran. Likely because of the seals that had already broken weaking the bore and allowing the DO to influence more.
Didn't Moraine say (I think it was while they were at Fal Dara) that a wavering projection of TDO, one that flickers and cannot hold, still has more power than all of the Trolloc hordes combined. I don't think an avatar of TDO is possible without all sorts of things becoming FUBAR quicker than things did.
She says that's what drove the trollocs into Shadar Logoth after talking to Fain. But that's just crazy Ishamael projecting a spooky illusion I'm pretty sure, that or he was insubstantial in some way and not yet totally free.
I would argue that Moiraine doesn't really know what would be possible for the shadow of the Shadow since no Aes Sedai has ever encountered anything like it.
Shaidar Haran is a Myrddraal that the Dark One uses as a physical representation of his authority with the Forsaken. His name translates to "hand of the dark," and that's exactly what he is. As a metaphysical entity, the Dark One probably utilized a physical representative in order to communicate with his servants in a way they could more clearly understand. Sure, the Dark One can give orders in Shayol Ghul just fine, but Shaidar Haran can travel anywhere to relay those orders and serve as a physical presence to be feared and obeyed, rather than a disembodied voice. Regardless of the how or why, Shaidar Haran has been definitively confirmed as the voice and hand of the Dark One in physical form.
While Shaidar Haran does seem to be much more formidable than a regular Myrddraal, his powers are not as immense as they may seem. While I cannot remember my source for this, I believe it has been confirmed that Shaidar Haran has enormous power over the Forsaken and other Darkfriends specifically, as they've given their souls to the Dark One. Since he has possession of them in some way (Remember Asmodean's ties to the Dark One in Shadow Rising?), he is able to exercise powers on them that he cannot use on our heroes. The flaming bonds he places on Mesaana are probably an example of these powers.
That said, Shaidar Haran is able to somehow incapacitate Semirhage's guards in The Gathering Storm, something a regular Myrddraal would likely be unable to do alone, so he certainly has some advantages over a regular Fade. We do see him doing things regular Myrddraal are never seen doing (Seeing the residue of a gateway) and his ability to distinguish *saidar* and *saidin* by smell is explicitly stated to be unique to him. He also is probably much craftier and likely physically stronger than regular Myrddraal. However, we really don't know exactly how much more powerful than a regular Myrddraal he is when up against our heroes, as there have never been any explicit scenes of him interacting with anyone but servants of the Dark One.
I'd love to see a scene in the show that has Shaidar Haran physically asserting himself over other Shadowspawn. That would be an... interesting dynamic, since most Trollocs are so damn stupid they wouldn't be able to even RECOGNIZE that SH is different from a normal Myrddraal.
Trollocs actively cower in fear before regular Myrddraal though, so I doubt any would try to square up against Shaidar Haran. Beneath Dreadlords, Myrddraal are basically the Shadow's top dogs.
Most trollocs would immediately obsequiously obey a normal Myrddraal, SH wouldnt need to do any special asserting.
Something like the Worms that chase the party into the hills in the blight near the end of EOTW, or the thing in the lake in Malkier, or whatever Lan remarks those Worms are *afraid of* that means they won't follow them up there.
Or the Gholam. Ooooh the Gholam.
He does also have one physical distinction from regular Myrdraal; he's like a foot taller than normal. I don't remember which forsaken it was whose perspective on SH we read, but I remember them mentally remarking that all Myrdraal are identical, poured-from-the-mould indistinguishable copies, except *this one* was head and shoulders taller than the others and the Forsaken didn't like having to crane their neck to look up at it.
The way I figure he's some sort of mutation of a Myrdraal - something like a Channeler with a Talent or a Dreamwalker.
Remember that Myrdraal are aberrant Trollocs, which are themselves humans twisted by the True Power, ie. The Dark One's touch. It's implied iirc that the channeler gene is still present in the Trolloc stock, it just manifests as a Myrdraal with all their spooky magic that is not quite magic as any other characters know it. So Shaidar Haran is sort of the peak mutation of a myrdraal, the way that Rand is the peak mutation of a channeller - the Wheel knows only balance, resurgences on the scale of ta'veren can happen on both sides.
Just to add I this argument, Myrdraal can sense when someone is channeling the One Power as well. I really like how you said they were “aberrant Trollocs.” Even the Forsaken are not so low key scared/uncomfortable around Myrdraal
Yup! Trollocs were a huge success for the Shadow, since they could breed and sustain themselves without needing to be engineered for every specimen. That was much more important than their intimidating presence or physical superiority. I believe it's stated that the Shadow made some brief gains in the war after Trollocs hit the field, but they rapidly began losing after the forces of the Light became used to facing Trollocs. Sure, Trollocs were scary-looking, but they were also cowardly and stupid. Early strategy involved simply corralling Trollocs towards the enemy and hoping the opposition crumbled under fear and numbers. The Light was able to turn the tides very quickly with actual tactics, and the Trollocs' cowardice rendered them ineffective against troops determined to hold their ground.
Then the Myrddraal started being born. Suddenly the Shadow had something the Trollocs feared even more than strong enemies, and unlike Trollocs the Myrddraal were crafty and cunning, able to adapt and strategize. Trollocs couldn't be commanded, but Myrddraal could. And with the ability to "link" to groups of Trollocs, Myrddraal effectively transformed the untamed monsters of the Shadow into an actual fighting force. That was when the Shadow started to really get ahead in the war. They might not have ever fully understood how Myrddraal came to be, but they were certainly grateful for it.
From the wiki: Shaidar Haran (old tongue: hand of the dark) appears to be a myddraal. As its name suggests, its function is to serve as the hand and mouthpiece of the dark one in the world.
I always kind of thought of Shaidar Haran as the "goal" product of Shadowspawn breeding. A vessel which merges mortal will with the Shadow so the DO can more directly influence the world.
The Kwisatz Haderach of the WoT universe, so to speak.
Authoritatively, I don't know, but conceptually, I've always viewed Shaidar Haran as a corporeal spirit entity, a projection, much like can be seen used (extensively, far as I can tell from the 100+ series I've watched so far) in many contemporary donghua titles, ie, not just a vaporous floaty spirit (like leaving your body in many fantasy titles and many movies and tv series over the years) but so spiritually "thick" that it is physically present, occupies space, has mass, etc.
fwiw and all that.
Shaidar Haran is the true Ne'Blis, all the BS and infighting from The Chosen is window dressing since the Great Lord of the Dark doesn't give a damn about any human, he just wants to break the wheel.
#[SPOILERS FOR ALL PRINTED MATERIAL, INCLUDING SHORT STORIES.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_all_print) ##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS. * * * *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Here's what Jordan had to say. > TED HERMAN > > Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore? > > ROBERT JORDAN > > I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature. It is the Dark One in shadowy form. > > TED HERMAN > > Is it twenty-four seven, or just part time? > > ROBERT JORDAN > > Twenty-four seven. >
This. The DO is able to somehow see and interact (in a very limited way) through Shaidar Haran. Likely because of the seals that had already broken weaking the bore and allowing the DO to influence more.
Didn't Moraine say (I think it was while they were at Fal Dara) that a wavering projection of TDO, one that flickers and cannot hold, still has more power than all of the Trolloc hordes combined. I don't think an avatar of TDO is possible without all sorts of things becoming FUBAR quicker than things did.
She says that's what drove the trollocs into Shadar Logoth after talking to Fain. But that's just crazy Ishamael projecting a spooky illusion I'm pretty sure, that or he was insubstantial in some way and not yet totally free.
That's right, it was ishy. Which kind of proves my point, I think.
I would argue that Moiraine doesn't really know what would be possible for the shadow of the Shadow since no Aes Sedai has ever encountered anything like it.
Thanks!
Shaidar Haran is a Myrddraal that the Dark One uses as a physical representation of his authority with the Forsaken. His name translates to "hand of the dark," and that's exactly what he is. As a metaphysical entity, the Dark One probably utilized a physical representative in order to communicate with his servants in a way they could more clearly understand. Sure, the Dark One can give orders in Shayol Ghul just fine, but Shaidar Haran can travel anywhere to relay those orders and serve as a physical presence to be feared and obeyed, rather than a disembodied voice. Regardless of the how or why, Shaidar Haran has been definitively confirmed as the voice and hand of the Dark One in physical form. While Shaidar Haran does seem to be much more formidable than a regular Myrddraal, his powers are not as immense as they may seem. While I cannot remember my source for this, I believe it has been confirmed that Shaidar Haran has enormous power over the Forsaken and other Darkfriends specifically, as they've given their souls to the Dark One. Since he has possession of them in some way (Remember Asmodean's ties to the Dark One in Shadow Rising?), he is able to exercise powers on them that he cannot use on our heroes. The flaming bonds he places on Mesaana are probably an example of these powers. That said, Shaidar Haran is able to somehow incapacitate Semirhage's guards in The Gathering Storm, something a regular Myrddraal would likely be unable to do alone, so he certainly has some advantages over a regular Fade. We do see him doing things regular Myrddraal are never seen doing (Seeing the residue of a gateway) and his ability to distinguish *saidar* and *saidin* by smell is explicitly stated to be unique to him. He also is probably much craftier and likely physically stronger than regular Myrddraal. However, we really don't know exactly how much more powerful than a regular Myrddraal he is when up against our heroes, as there have never been any explicit scenes of him interacting with anyone but servants of the Dark One.
I'd love to see a scene in the show that has Shaidar Haran physically asserting himself over other Shadowspawn. That would be an... interesting dynamic, since most Trollocs are so damn stupid they wouldn't be able to even RECOGNIZE that SH is different from a normal Myrddraal.
I feel like it should feel like when Gandalf swells up and sucks the light out of the room when intimidating Bilbo.
Trollocs actively cower in fear before regular Myrddraal though, so I doubt any would try to square up against Shaidar Haran. Beneath Dreadlords, Myrddraal are basically the Shadow's top dogs.
Yes. But unlinked, hungry Trollocs? Even Myrddraal have trouble herding them until they're gorged on their own dead.
Most trollocs would immediately obsequiously obey a normal Myrddraal, SH wouldnt need to do any special asserting. Something like the Worms that chase the party into the hills in the blight near the end of EOTW, or the thing in the lake in Malkier, or whatever Lan remarks those Worms are *afraid of* that means they won't follow them up there. Or the Gholam. Ooooh the Gholam.
The last battle was much for metaphysical than I thought. I kinda thought Rand would just fight a beefed up Shaidar Haran.
He does also have one physical distinction from regular Myrdraal; he's like a foot taller than normal. I don't remember which forsaken it was whose perspective on SH we read, but I remember them mentally remarking that all Myrdraal are identical, poured-from-the-mould indistinguishable copies, except *this one* was head and shoulders taller than the others and the Forsaken didn't like having to crane their neck to look up at it.
The way I figure he's some sort of mutation of a Myrdraal - something like a Channeler with a Talent or a Dreamwalker. Remember that Myrdraal are aberrant Trollocs, which are themselves humans twisted by the True Power, ie. The Dark One's touch. It's implied iirc that the channeler gene is still present in the Trolloc stock, it just manifests as a Myrdraal with all their spooky magic that is not quite magic as any other characters know it. So Shaidar Haran is sort of the peak mutation of a myrdraal, the way that Rand is the peak mutation of a channeller - the Wheel knows only balance, resurgences on the scale of ta'veren can happen on both sides.
Just to add I this argument, Myrdraal can sense when someone is channeling the One Power as well. I really like how you said they were “aberrant Trollocs.” Even the Forsaken are not so low key scared/uncomfortable around Myrdraal
IIRC they weren't even really created by Aginor, he created the Trollocs and then Myrdraal started showing up and none of them knew why.
Yup! Trollocs were a huge success for the Shadow, since they could breed and sustain themselves without needing to be engineered for every specimen. That was much more important than their intimidating presence or physical superiority. I believe it's stated that the Shadow made some brief gains in the war after Trollocs hit the field, but they rapidly began losing after the forces of the Light became used to facing Trollocs. Sure, Trollocs were scary-looking, but they were also cowardly and stupid. Early strategy involved simply corralling Trollocs towards the enemy and hoping the opposition crumbled under fear and numbers. The Light was able to turn the tides very quickly with actual tactics, and the Trollocs' cowardice rendered them ineffective against troops determined to hold their ground. Then the Myrddraal started being born. Suddenly the Shadow had something the Trollocs feared even more than strong enemies, and unlike Trollocs the Myrddraal were crafty and cunning, able to adapt and strategize. Trollocs couldn't be commanded, but Myrddraal could. And with the ability to "link" to groups of Trollocs, Myrddraal effectively transformed the untamed monsters of the Shadow into an actual fighting force. That was when the Shadow started to really get ahead in the war. They might not have ever fully understood how Myrddraal came to be, but they were certainly grateful for it.
From the wiki: Shaidar Haran (old tongue: hand of the dark) appears to be a myddraal. As its name suggests, its function is to serve as the hand and mouthpiece of the dark one in the world.
It is the dark one reaching through to bore to inhabit a physical body. In memory of light, his “husk” gave birth to the darkness in the Pit of Doom.
It's a vessel for the Dark One in the physical world. Jordan may not consider it an avatar, but that's what an avatar to me
Yeah whatever you call it, it's a physical incarnation of the DO in a physical body.
I always kind of thought of Shaidar Haran as the "goal" product of Shadowspawn breeding. A vessel which merges mortal will with the Shadow so the DO can more directly influence the world. The Kwisatz Haderach of the WoT universe, so to speak.
Authoritatively, I don't know, but conceptually, I've always viewed Shaidar Haran as a corporeal spirit entity, a projection, much like can be seen used (extensively, far as I can tell from the 100+ series I've watched so far) in many contemporary donghua titles, ie, not just a vaporous floaty spirit (like leaving your body in many fantasy titles and many movies and tv series over the years) but so spiritually "thick" that it is physically present, occupies space, has mass, etc. fwiw and all that.
He is an *aspect* of the dark one, not a true avatar.
Being just an avatar was always a little strange to me, because SH has such a distinct personality in a way the DO doesnt.
If you obey Shaidar Haran, you obey me. If you disobey Shaidar Haran…
I always saw him as an analogue to Sauron without his ring. He has a physical presence in the world, but with only a fraction of his true strength.
Shaidar Haran is the true Ne'Blis, all the BS and infighting from The Chosen is window dressing since the Great Lord of the Dark doesn't give a damn about any human, he just wants to break the wheel.