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> # [German woman given harsher sentence than rapist for calling him ‘pig’](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/world-news/2024/06/28/TELEMMGLPICT000383692476_17195890438870_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqrd5bXAQFVK1eS61WrqLRyUlcO44uR88CfjssemIwwxw.jpeg?impolicy=logo-overlay)
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>
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> A woman in Germany has been given a harsher sentence than a convicted rapist after she was found guilty of defaming him.
>
> Maja R, a 20-year-old from Hamburg, called him a “disgraceful rapist pig” and a “disgusting freak”, defamatory under German law.
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> He was one of nine attackers who gang-raped a 15-year-old girl in a Hamburg park in 2020, in a case that shocked the city.
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> Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail for her verbal attacks. The rapist was given a suspended sentence and served no prison time due to his age.
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> The sentence has sparked anger over what critics see as the flaws in [Germany’s judicial system](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/germany/), with disproportionate punishment for defamation.
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>
>
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> Maja R expressed her disgust in a direct message to one of the gang-rapists via WhatsApp, after his name and number were leaked on Snapchat. She told the court she sent her message to him “without thinking twice”.
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> “Aren’t you ashamed when you look in the mirror?” she asked, calling him a “disgraceful rapist pig” and a “disgusting freak”.
>
> She also told the criminal that he “couldn’t go anywhere without getting kicked in the face” and said, “let’s hope you are just locked away”.
>
> ## Nine men and boys
>
> The man was one of nine men and boys convicted of raping a heavily drunk 15-year-old in the bushes of a Hamburg park over a number of hours in Sept 2020.
>
> Only one of them spent any time in jail, an Iranian national, who was 19 years old at the time. Speaking about the rape in court, he asked: “What man doesn’t want that?” It’s not clear why he received jail time and the others didn’t.
>
> The rest of the attackers, including the one defamed by Maja R, were given suspended sentences, due to being under 18 at the time. Anne Meier-Goering, the presiding judge, lamented during the trial that “none of the defendants said a word of regret”.
>
> Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail because she had a previous conviction for theft and not attending the court hearing for the case.
>
> She apologised to the young man she had contacted, telling the court “it didn’t help anyone”. She added that she wanted to go back to school and study to become a paediatric nurse.
>
> ## Mild slurs
>
> The case has laid bare Germany’s [harsh defamation laws,](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12174806/Germany-fines-man-for-blasphemous-car-bumper-stickers.html) which criminalise causing offence with even mild slurs like “idiot”. Breaking the law can lead to punishment of up to two years in prison.
>
> The district court said it had received strong reactions over the rulings in both the defamation case and the rape trial which prompted it.
>
> Hamburg authorities are now investigating around 140 more suspects for insulting or threatening the gang rapists, with 100 of the suspects based outside Hamburg.
>
> A court spokesman told the Hamburger Abendblatt local newspaper last week: “We are observing the hostility in connection with the proceedings and the verdict with great concern.”
>
> He said the anger over the case had “reached a new, worrying level of intensity” and described the criticism as “a targeted attack on the rule of law”.
- - - - - -
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The media coverage of this whole case is an absolute an utter disgrace. Everything about this case that has been published by sites which arent focused on legal matters is a mockery of the truth
Thats point one. He isnt a rapist. Question marks should have gone up when you read that she is guilty of defamation for calling him a rapist pig.
There is no sole paragraph for rape in german criminal law §177 StGB includes sexual assault, sexual coercion and rape. The sentences in this case are so low because all but one perpetrator didnt commit rape but sexual assault. Sexual Assault in adult criminal law has a sentence between 6 months and 5 years because it includes a large span of actions. Because their cases were handled under juveline law low sentences for sexual assault can be changed to parole
Point two she got 2 days detention because she was on parole for theft and did not appear to her court hearing. The perperator got 2 years of parole. Claiming that she got the harder sentence is absurd.
Two years of parole for gang raping a minor is a joke.
How about we try a minimum of five years in prison, and the same on parole as a sentence. Bare minimum.
Fuckers displayed no remorse.
And that's exactly the sort of thing that encourages rapists to murder their victims.
Can't have the penalty be the same or worse than for murder because it's way harder to solve one and at that point you're a bad person anyway, may as well.
Realistically they would both be charged in the United States.
One was bail jumping. And appeared to be flippantly evading their "theft" thing.
The other was, some sort of predation?
Bad decisions by criminals all around. Put them in the circumstances to all do even more crime. To each other.
They look like cartel members from how they are described in this thread.
I think they'd all get the death penalty here. Easy.
2 years of probation is worse than a weekend in jail. If you want to say that there should be harsher sentences for minors convicted of sexual assault we can have that discussion but c'mon
If someone participated in some sort of group sexual assault scenario but only one person in the group stuck their dick in - they’re all rapists. Legalisms and hair splitting is for lawyers.
> Legalisms and hair splitting is for lawyers.
Vibes based justice is not justice. The 11 year old in the back of the hot-wired car who was just following his older brother around is not as guilty of the crime of manslaughter when his older brother's adult friend crashed the car into a bunch of pedestrians.
He is one of the rapists though? There are also studies that show that German attorneys systematically undershoot in cases of sexual assault and rape, staying disproportionally below the potential jail times the law would allow for.
You're distinctly removing context from what happened to frame it from the court's perspective. That's why this article is correct, rape and 'assisted sexual assault' should be more harshly punished and these perpetrators will likely face vigilante justice because your courts are so far removed from reality.
Thank you for demonstrating why pedantry is the least valuable of all social skills.
Despite your contribution here, I'm afraid you still not be invited to parties. :/
How isn’t he a rapist? Just because he’s underage seems like a pointless quibble. The article says he’s a convicted rapist and the only reason he didn’t get jail time is because he’s underage. The person getting raped probably doesn’t care if he’s underage.
It is still true that she served more time under significantly different crimes. Most legal systems reserve rape for a very specific category but punish sexual assault harshly. I think many people are tired of juvenile law not working, at least here in the US. Many people here act in full capacity as adults in their crimes, get underprosecuted 30-40 times and then are surprised when they turn 18 and look at a 20+ year sentence. In theory, I fully support rehabilitative justice, but some rehabilitative justice is better than others. Where rehabilitative justice works as in better areas, we see decreased crime rates in these cities and nationwide, but our big cities, we see mass repeat offenders who are used to getting away with crime because they were taught from a young age their second and third offenses didn't carry significant escalation.
No its not true. She got 2 days detention for missing her court hearing because she herself was on parole for theft. What part of that do you not understand?
German juvenile law is working perfectly fine.
And this detention isnt actual jail. Its a secluded room in the court house not full on general penal system
Any law that lets gang rape go unpunished is not working perfectly fine. The crimes are completely different between missing a court hearing and gang rape. There is no age where you don't act in full capacity to commit violence of that scale. Some crimes are not juvenile.
It did though. You act in rehabilitative capacity the first time they get caught in a severe crime, not the first time they commit any crime, and by the time you find they violated parole to get a punishment of punitive nature, they've permanently harmed at least two lives. Correction happens the very first time they steal or hit someone, not the very first time they permanently injure someone or ruin their lives with rape. Rehabilitation happens in steps, and it takes MANY steps to get to gang rape. Escalation to life changing crimes should never have to happen under a rehabilitative model.
You can see my opinion on the right in even the last ten comments. This is the kind of double standard that makes the new right viable at all as a voting group.
Do you have a source on it being just sexual assault because the article details in OP's comment say she was gang raped.
Rape and sexual assault are quite different and even the article is saying rape. You are the one saying this "wasn't that serious" which honestly just sounds like you're a pig - oh wait, don't sue me!
"Woman caught stealing gets a weekend in jail because she didn't show up to court. Also she insulted a rapist."
Doesn't get nearly as many clicks I guess.
This thread is actually the perfect example on why the far right is rising.
The article is inaccurate rage bait and the majority doesnt bother to fact check it.
[https://www.lto.de/recht/meinung/m/eine-frage-an-fischer-jugendstrafrecht-verschaerfen/](https://www.lto.de/recht/meinung/m/eine-frage-an-fischer-jugendstrafrecht-verschaerfen/)
The problem is that articles with authors that have a law degree are soley in german
Thank you very much for your perspective. It was very educational and provided a lot of context into the German legal system and its objectives.
I guess basis the current German laws in place, the judgment passed and punishment doled out was as per the law.
Since you seem to have some insight into this, one question I have for you is - do you believe the laws applicable need any changes or are they fine as they are. I understand if you might not have the expertise but wanted to understand your perspective.
I mean you can say the comparison is unnecessary and rage baiting. However the fact that the rapist pig got basically no punishment for his actions due to a poorly written law still a disgrace
And I have given multiple arguments on why it is inaccurate.
If you speak german or got a good translation tool I would advise to read this article
[https://www.lto.de/recht/meinung/m/eine-frage-an-fischer-jugendstrafrecht-verschaerfen/](https://www.lto.de/recht/meinung/m/eine-frage-an-fischer-jugendstrafrecht-verschaerfen/)
I think I might know why the Far right is rising
[Kriminalstatistik für 2023 ausgewertet: 111 Gruppenvergewaltigungen in Berlin registriert (tagesspiegel.de)](https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/kriminalstatistik-fur-2023-ausgewertet-111-gruppenvergewaltigungen-in-berlin-registriert-11726978.html)
"intellectually equipped" When you sipped your coffee did you smugly tip your fedora also something tells me you did not read the article in less than 1 minute
The statistic has been out longer then the article and I read that. I dont need to read what some journalist writes about a topic that I have a degree in when he has none.
LOL Why dont you move the goalpost some more sweetie? Stop LYING about reading it and just say that instead. Really hurts any credibility you might have, which is obviously none at this point. And at least admit you lied instead of coming up with excuses you don't need to read it. Gfy :D
And then the Strafrechtsnovelle went into effect and changed the definiton of rape. See thats the problem. You have no background knowledge about this topic at all
Sexual criminal law got changed in 2017 as a consequence of the metoo controversy which also took place in Germany with multiple prominent cases
[https://www.buzer.de/gesetz/6165/v201459-2016-11-10.htm](https://www.buzer.de/gesetz/6165/v201459-2016-11-10.htm)
So why did Gang rapes increase even prior to 2016? Why was 2015 lower than 16 and why was 2020 lower than 2023? Sure changing the legal definition of rape would have some affect but that still doesn't explain rise in rape prior to 2017 and after. Should we also talk about what percentage are committed by foreigners despite being only 20 percent of berlin?
> why was 2020 lower than 2023?
gee i wonder what could possibly have happened in 2020 that resulted in fewer opportunities for groups of people to do crime
Because a thief on parole and skipping their hearing gets two days of detention while a teenager received a suspended sentence for sexual assault?
Edit:
“[she] was sentenced to a weekend in jail after her comments because she had a previous conviction for theft and had not attending the court hearing for the case.”
I don't know about Germany, but France saw a surge of women voting for far-right parties.
Maybe Europeans should stop protesting the far-right and find out why they're gaining support.
> removing democracy
Come again? How is supporting far right parties "removing democracy"? Being able to vote for the party that fights for your security is the literal purpose of a democracy?
Or are you one of those types that deems anyone that disagrees with you a nazi/bigot/racist/sexist/literal hitler etc?
Do you know about pro-caliphate protests i Germany? This is the real threat to democracy and it's just a matter of time at this point, if you look at the demographic projections. But sure, keep being naive.
Just because a movement doesn't have political power right now, doesn't mean it never will. You should know that, especially when talking about Germany.
You need asses the current situation and then extrapolate. As demographics are shifting, more people will be pro-caliphate and more conflicts will occour. It will lead to escalation and extremists on both sides will gain more power. I mean, just look at other countries where silimar demographic shifts took place.
> The case has laid bare Germany’s harsh defamation laws, which criminalise causing offence with even mild slurs like “idiot”. Breaking the law can lead to punishment of up to two years in prison.
> Hamburg authorities are now investigating around 140 more suspects for insulting or threatening the gang rapists, with 100 of the suspects based outside Hamburg.
hmm
Its grossly oversimplified.
"ACAB" is a good exmaple because there is a lot of case law regarding that. If you would write ACAB on reddit thats not a crime. If you shout ACAB at a specific group of policemen its can qualify as an insult but it is only pursued if the person that was insulted proposes a motion.
And its a fine. The 2 year max sentence is for insane cases and hardcore reoffenders. You dont get a prison fine for calling your neighbour and idiot. You get a prison fine if you psychological terrorize your neighbour by repeatedly dehumanizing him over a lenghty spell of time and after multiple prior verdicts.
technically yes?
There are so many other cases to show how bad rape gets prosecuted that it's odd that people fixate on this one though, i guess the headline sticks?
This case is just overall messy which lead to this result. Everyone but one got prosecuted on sexual assault rather than rape and juvenile law (lesser sentences) got applied because of their age so that's why the sentences were so low here. And there was other shit going on like her being on parole for theft so they had to prosecute her somehow.
The article yesterday people were all about policing speech when a dementia ridden 95 year old grandma didn't believe in the Holocaust. This is why speech shouldn't be banned if it isn't a direct threat. The government should not have the right to imprison someone just over insults.
And this is the reason why the far right movement is gaining momentum in Europe courts giving a lenient sentence to crimes committed by actual criminals and punishing those who speak up
This is exactly what everyone was warning people about with the introduction of hate speech laws. This was always the intention, to demoralised the public and imprison dissidents. Together with soft on crime judges and prosecutors, and demonization of police, it's working pretty well for the people who have implemented this.
So has everyone had enough yet? Are things bad enough yet?
> This was always the intention, to demoralised the public and imprison dissidents.
Oh, please. She got two days of house arrest *because she was on parole for theft and missed a court date*. She's no dissident. She's an idiot who let's herself be goaded into another crime while she is enjoying the very same lenience she is attacking.
So you admitting that speech is a crime worth being hauled in front of a judge and potentially jailed, and you are fine with that. And I assume since you completely failed to address the much , much bigger half of this story, about the migrants who gang raped a child with no sentence and no remorse, perhaps you are ok with that part.
But oh yes, admonish me because the person being convicted of saying bad words isn't perhaps the most model citizen.
Wait you somehow think demoralizing the public and imprisoning dissidents is the same as demonizing police (the same police who would be imprisoning said dissidents)? Are you schizophrenic?
"Do they ask nicely that the criminal drives themselves to a prison?"
Yeah? Most people get a date and have to be at the jail at that date. If you dont appear an arrest warrant is issued and the police comes to get you.
Only a small amount of people is put into detention for their trial.
Alright so let me get this straight.
You think that a person found guilty and sentenced to prison for a crime is allowed by the state to drive themselves to the prison for which they will be imprisoned at for a certain period of time?
I dont think that thats how this is done in Germany I know it. Unless you get a so called "Untersuchungshaft" which only gets issued if the court evaluates that you are likely to reoffend, are likely to flee the country or will try to destroy evidence you are free for the trial and until the date the court has set out for your sentence to start.
If Untersuchungshaft is issued the time done during it will be shaped of the final sentence
Keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of people going to prison arent murders and rapists. Those crimes dont happen as often as things like theft or fraud. Most people are doing short terms for low level crimes.
You are confusing arrest or detention pending parole/trial with imprisonment.
In most western nations it's the police's job to enforce the law and arrest those breaking it, but in order for someone to be sent to prison they must be prosecuted, receive a trial, be found guilty by a jury and then sentenced by a judge.
The police do none of that bar the arrest.
You don’t understand the point. Police in America (which is what we’re talking about because that’s where defund the police came from) both arrest alleged criminals and transport them to jail/prison directly following sentencing.
Thats just not true. Meier göring said in an interview with der spiegel:
[Hamburg - Richterin über Vergewaltigungsprozess: »Mein Bild ist jetzt auf Höckes Facebook-Seite« - DER SPIEGEL](https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/hamburg-richterin-ueber-vergewaltigungsprozess-mein-bild-ist-jetzt-auf-hoeckes-facebook-seite-a-ceef1640-15c5-4409-a47b-ccf8f79579c9)
**SPIEGEL**: But only one of the defendants has to go to prison.
**Meier-Göring**:"Yes, because in this case we assume that only a prison sentence will deter him from committing further crimes. In the case of the other eight defendants, however, we expect that they will remain crime-free even without serving a juvenile sentence. But for four defendants we want to examine this expectation more closely for six months."
Also, they were only tried as minors. They weren't all minors. The judge can in some cases try adults as minors in germany if they lack education and such
*"Although the rapists were ages 17 to 21 at the time of the horrific crime, they were tried in a youth court"*
*and*
*"Only one rapist, a 19-year-old, received prison time. He was sentenced to two years and nine months in prison without parole."*
[German judge lets 8 men who gang-raped girl walk free | Blaze Media (theblaze.com)](https://www.theblaze.com/news/german-judge-lets-8-men-who-gang-raped-girl-walk-free)
Are you straight up just spouting lies to defend rapists? Which source says something different from my sources? I want to know where you get your information from(assuming you aren't just blatantly lying)
...Didn't a White Dutch child rapist just get accepted into the Olympics? And aren't there millions of white men coming to his defense?
This is what happens when people like you try to draw attention to *only* migrant crimes. You never actually prevent the violence, because you found a new scapegoat to blame. Weak prosecution against rapists is a society-wide issue, but you're being pushed to only focus on *one* demographic, so that you don't ask for the larger, necessary societal changes.
And because of that, nothing is actually done to protect women. Why bother addressing rape culture and the "boys will be boys" attitude that permeate it, when you can just handwave it all to one demographic?
>They were mean for a reason.
Really? Let me see your ancestors...
Okay...like, you want a response? Want someone to be shocked and clutch their pearls? 90% sure you're a troll anyway, but...
Believe your weird terminally online shit. Just don't be surprised when nothing in society improves, because you're always blaming another new scapegoat.
> ...Didn't a White Dutch child rapist just get accepted into the Olympics? And aren't there millions of white men coming to his defense?
Have you ever seen the same far-right people being upset about Brock "The Rapist" Turner?
When it's a white kid/one of "them", they're suddenly all "Oh, no the precious boy with such a bright future".
To all German lawmakers, legislators, leaders with any influence and CERTAINLY to the perpetrators in this case and any other which involves violent crimes against a victim(s).
You are ALL 'disgraceful pigs', 'disgusting freaks' and profound idiots and pinheads.
This would get me jailed in Germany. What a clown show of absurdity.
This thread is pathetic - it sums up Reddit to a tee. A bunch of sanctimonious, vengeful wankers falling for inaccurate rage-bait and throwing hissy fits by saying “This is why the far right is rising!” Yeah, it’s rising because of the proliferation of inaccurate rage-bait articles like this one, that people don’t even bother to fact check, and that cause people to get angry at scenarios that don’t exist. Everyone here responding with retributive indignation, everyone complaining about how this fuels far right rhetoric, is contributing to that very rhetoric, and they’re too stupid to even realise it. So depressing to see.
"Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail because she had a previous conviction for theft and not attending the court hearing for the case."
bad article, buries the lede
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She got sentenced for skipping a court date for theft. This was an unrelated incident which she just also happened to be tangentially involved in.
140 people were investigated for harassment of the rapist, because that's illegal regardless of what kind of person the victim is, even if they are the scum of the earth like in this case. She was the only one of those who got sentenced, because of her prior criminal history.
>140 people were investigated for harassment of the rapist
This part alone shows how important free speech is and how Germany has become a clown nation
They didn't post this on social media in public they got a hold of the persons phone number and texted them repeatedly including threats of violence. That is harassment.
Germans looking at the US/Israel punching and kicking at the air because they aren't the biggest bad guys on the planet rn. They doing their best though it seems.
Its a bullshit article. She didnt got 2 days detentions for defamation. She got 2 days detention because she was on parole for theft and skipped her court hearing regarding the defamation case.
my summary:
defamation in isolation doesn't give you jailtime in germany. you get a fine.
she didn't go to jail for just defamation. she was on probation for theft.
you definitely go to jail for rape in germany
the one guys didnt gang bang her. they comittet sexual harassment. most of them under juvenile law
Germany is a joke these days. They argue about the semantics of rape and care more about that then the actual crimes. I’m not surprised by anything I read anymore.
Were the man who partook in the gang rape Muslim or Arabic?
Why are we giving these people a pass for heinous crimes? Because of cultural differences?
Isn’t it racist in itself to assume that young Muslim Arabic men can’t control themselves and will sexually abuse women if given the opportunity? Punish them like we would punish anybody else
They don’t get a pass on sexual assault because they happen to come from a region of our planet that allows such atrocities to be committed in the open
No the article is not factual. They got found guilty of §177 sexual assault, sexual coercion and rape. Only one person was found guilty of the qualification of rape. 2 accused were acquitted the rest was found of guilty of sexual assault and received parole or preparole under juveline criminal law.
Preparole means that the court sets a date normally 6 months and they take a look if you managed to turn your life around otherwise its jail.
##### ###### #### > # [German woman given harsher sentence than rapist for calling him ‘pig’](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/world-news/2024/06/28/TELEMMGLPICT000383692476_17195890438870_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqrd5bXAQFVK1eS61WrqLRyUlcO44uR88CfjssemIwwxw.jpeg?impolicy=logo-overlay) > > > > A woman in Germany has been given a harsher sentence than a convicted rapist after she was found guilty of defaming him. > > Maja R, a 20-year-old from Hamburg, called him a “disgraceful rapist pig” and a “disgusting freak”, defamatory under German law. > > He was one of nine attackers who gang-raped a 15-year-old girl in a Hamburg park in 2020, in a case that shocked the city. > > Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail for her verbal attacks. The rapist was given a suspended sentence and served no prison time due to his age. > > The sentence has sparked anger over what critics see as the flaws in [Germany’s judicial system](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/germany/), with disproportionate punishment for defamation. > > > > > > Maja R expressed her disgust in a direct message to one of the gang-rapists via WhatsApp, after his name and number were leaked on Snapchat. She told the court she sent her message to him “without thinking twice”. > > “Aren’t you ashamed when you look in the mirror?” she asked, calling him a “disgraceful rapist pig” and a “disgusting freak”. > > She also told the criminal that he “couldn’t go anywhere without getting kicked in the face” and said, “let’s hope you are just locked away”. > > ## Nine men and boys > > The man was one of nine men and boys convicted of raping a heavily drunk 15-year-old in the bushes of a Hamburg park over a number of hours in Sept 2020. > > Only one of them spent any time in jail, an Iranian national, who was 19 years old at the time. Speaking about the rape in court, he asked: “What man doesn’t want that?” It’s not clear why he received jail time and the others didn’t. > > The rest of the attackers, including the one defamed by Maja R, were given suspended sentences, due to being under 18 at the time. Anne Meier-Goering, the presiding judge, lamented during the trial that “none of the defendants said a word of regret”. > > Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail because she had a previous conviction for theft and not attending the court hearing for the case. > > She apologised to the young man she had contacted, telling the court “it didn’t help anyone”. She added that she wanted to go back to school and study to become a paediatric nurse. > > ## Mild slurs > > The case has laid bare Germany’s [harsh defamation laws,](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12174806/Germany-fines-man-for-blasphemous-car-bumper-stickers.html) which criminalise causing offence with even mild slurs like “idiot”. Breaking the law can lead to punishment of up to two years in prison. > > The district court said it had received strong reactions over the rulings in both the defamation case and the rape trial which prompted it. > > Hamburg authorities are now investigating around 140 more suspects for insulting or threatening the gang rapists, with 100 of the suspects based outside Hamburg. > > A court spokesman told the Hamburger Abendblatt local newspaper last week: “We are observing the hostility in connection with the proceedings and the verdict with great concern.” > > He said the anger over the case had “reached a new, worrying level of intensity” and described the criticism as “a targeted attack on the rule of law”. - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
The media coverage of this whole case is an absolute an utter disgrace. Everything about this case that has been published by sites which arent focused on legal matters is a mockery of the truth
It's harassment but if she was just speaking her mind to the actual rapist pig. No harm, no foul.
Thats point one. He isnt a rapist. Question marks should have gone up when you read that she is guilty of defamation for calling him a rapist pig. There is no sole paragraph for rape in german criminal law §177 StGB includes sexual assault, sexual coercion and rape. The sentences in this case are so low because all but one perpetrator didnt commit rape but sexual assault. Sexual Assault in adult criminal law has a sentence between 6 months and 5 years because it includes a large span of actions. Because their cases were handled under juveline law low sentences for sexual assault can be changed to parole Point two she got 2 days detention because she was on parole for theft and did not appear to her court hearing. The perperator got 2 years of parole. Claiming that she got the harder sentence is absurd.
...so she got 2 days of jail for theft and he got 2 years parole for sexual assault while his buddy raped the girl. Yeah he got the lighter sentence.
Two years of parole for gang raping a minor is a joke. How about we try a minimum of five years in prison, and the same on parole as a sentence. Bare minimum. Fuckers displayed no remorse.
Sentencing should realistically start at life for rape. Really. 35 years is still taking it too easy on these rapists.
And that's exactly the sort of thing that encourages rapists to murder their victims. Can't have the penalty be the same or worse than for murder because it's way harder to solve one and at that point you're a bad person anyway, may as well.
So we make the penalty for murder worse. Problem solved.
Only thing worse than life is death, and there's big problems with that. Can't resurrect someone you found innocent 6 months after the fact.
Cant resurrect them, its barbaric in general and COSTS MORE than imprisonment for life. A stupid, nonsensical punishment.
Only criminals, let alone rapists, dont act in a rational manner most of the time. A common mistake people in the legal system make.
Agreed. Minimum 15-20 year, and at least 6-12 months in the slot to start it off.
Realistically they would both be charged in the United States. One was bail jumping. And appeared to be flippantly evading their "theft" thing. The other was, some sort of predation? Bad decisions by criminals all around. Put them in the circumstances to all do even more crime. To each other. They look like cartel members from how they are described in this thread. I think they'd all get the death penalty here. Easy.
You're saying two days of jail is worse than two years on parole?
2 years of probation is worse than a weekend in jail. If you want to say that there should be harsher sentences for minors convicted of sexual assault we can have that discussion but c'mon
That can only be said by someone without absolutly no legal expertize
Germans especially should be aware that laws are not a moral justification.
Legality isn't reality.
And that can only be said by someone immensly stupid. Leaglity is what society has decided on so yes it literally is reality.
Yes yes it's a framework that ended weregild and vengeance. But trying to say he isnt a rapist while he participated in a rape is not reality. Sorry.
Yep, and if this is how your society’s laws work, then your society is garbage. Hence the reaction
Yeah there’s no real good way to spin this into some kind of “media exaggeration “
If someone participated in some sort of group sexual assault scenario but only one person in the group stuck their dick in - they’re all rapists. Legalisms and hair splitting is for lawyers.
The person you're replying to is delusional. "He is not a rapist because he was not convicted of rape." Semantics at best.
> Legalisms and hair splitting is for lawyers. Vibes based justice is not justice. The 11 year old in the back of the hot-wired car who was just following his older brother around is not as guilty of the crime of manslaughter when his older brother's adult friend crashed the car into a bunch of pedestrians.
Cool scenario, what about a 16 year old who helped his 19 year old friend rape a 15 year old?
If only there was an article about such an event that we could all come together to comment on. But I guess we'll never know.
>Thats point one. He isnt a rapist He was found guilty of participating in a gang rape of a drunk 15 yo
He is one of the rapists though? There are also studies that show that German attorneys systematically undershoot in cases of sexual assault and rape, staying disproportionally below the potential jail times the law would allow for.
You're distinctly removing context from what happened to frame it from the court's perspective. That's why this article is correct, rape and 'assisted sexual assault' should be more harshly punished and these perpetrators will likely face vigilante justice because your courts are so far removed from reality.
Thank you for demonstrating why pedantry is the least valuable of all social skills. Despite your contribution here, I'm afraid you still not be invited to parties. :/
Imagine being this disingenuous, do you think people cannot read or what?
How isn’t he a rapist? Just because he’s underage seems like a pointless quibble. The article says he’s a convicted rapist and the only reason he didn’t get jail time is because he’s underage. The person getting raped probably doesn’t care if he’s underage.
Heini du bist ein Idiot
It is still true that she served more time under significantly different crimes. Most legal systems reserve rape for a very specific category but punish sexual assault harshly. I think many people are tired of juvenile law not working, at least here in the US. Many people here act in full capacity as adults in their crimes, get underprosecuted 30-40 times and then are surprised when they turn 18 and look at a 20+ year sentence. In theory, I fully support rehabilitative justice, but some rehabilitative justice is better than others. Where rehabilitative justice works as in better areas, we see decreased crime rates in these cities and nationwide, but our big cities, we see mass repeat offenders who are used to getting away with crime because they were taught from a young age their second and third offenses didn't carry significant escalation.
No its not true. She got 2 days detention for missing her court hearing because she herself was on parole for theft. What part of that do you not understand? German juvenile law is working perfectly fine. And this detention isnt actual jail. Its a secluded room in the court house not full on general penal system
Any law that lets gang rape go unpunished is not working perfectly fine. The crimes are completely different between missing a court hearing and gang rape. There is no age where you don't act in full capacity to commit violence of that scale. Some crimes are not juvenile.
Good that it didnt go unpunished then
It did though. You act in rehabilitative capacity the first time they get caught in a severe crime, not the first time they commit any crime, and by the time you find they violated parole to get a punishment of punitive nature, they've permanently harmed at least two lives. Correction happens the very first time they steal or hit someone, not the very first time they permanently injure someone or ruin their lives with rape. Rehabilitation happens in steps, and it takes MANY steps to get to gang rape. Escalation to life changing crimes should never have to happen under a rehabilitative model. You can see my opinion on the right in even the last ten comments. This is the kind of double standard that makes the new right viable at all as a voting group.
Do you have a source on it being just sexual assault because the article details in OP's comment say she was gang raped. Rape and sexual assault are quite different and even the article is saying rape. You are the one saying this "wasn't that serious" which honestly just sounds like you're a pig - oh wait, don't sue me!
Teh article in ops comment is absurd telegraph bullshit
So... You don't have a source? Got it.
Law is for everyone. We don’t want American justice over here.
The American justice system is just as flawed. It's built by European concepts after all.
Point to me where the truth is? I’m curious about why this happened
"Woman caught stealing gets a weekend in jail because she didn't show up to court. Also she insulted a rapist." Doesn't get nearly as many clicks I guess.
And some people wonder why the far-right is rising and winning all over Europe....
This thread is actually the perfect example on why the far right is rising. The article is inaccurate rage bait and the majority doesnt bother to fact check it.
AWSHKULLY HE Didnt GANG RAPE a child, he just casually assisted the gentle deflouring of an almost adult Can't make up this pedo defending shit
You should give a link to a proper breakdown of all the facts so that you actually improve the discourse.
[https://www.lto.de/recht/meinung/m/eine-frage-an-fischer-jugendstrafrecht-verschaerfen/](https://www.lto.de/recht/meinung/m/eine-frage-an-fischer-jugendstrafrecht-verschaerfen/) The problem is that articles with authors that have a law degree are soley in german
many browsers have a built in translator anyways
Thank you very much for your perspective. It was very educational and provided a lot of context into the German legal system and its objectives. I guess basis the current German laws in place, the judgment passed and punishment doled out was as per the law. Since you seem to have some insight into this, one question I have for you is - do you believe the laws applicable need any changes or are they fine as they are. I understand if you might not have the expertise but wanted to understand your perspective.
I mean you can say the comparison is unnecessary and rage baiting. However the fact that the rapist pig got basically no punishment for his actions due to a poorly written law still a disgrace
You are the only that says it’s inaccurate, tbh.
And I have given multiple arguments on why it is inaccurate. If you speak german or got a good translation tool I would advise to read this article [https://www.lto.de/recht/meinung/m/eine-frage-an-fischer-jugendstrafrecht-verschaerfen/](https://www.lto.de/recht/meinung/m/eine-frage-an-fischer-jugendstrafrecht-verschaerfen/)
I think I might know why the Far right is rising [Kriminalstatistik für 2023 ausgewertet: 111 Gruppenvergewaltigungen in Berlin registriert (tagesspiegel.de)](https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/kriminalstatistik-fur-2023-ausgewertet-111-gruppenvergewaltigungen-in-berlin-registriert-11726978.html)
Yeah people not being intellectually equipped to read statistics is the other site of the coin I already mentioned
"intellectually equipped" When you sipped your coffee did you smugly tip your fedora also something tells me you did not read the article in less than 1 minute
I dont need to read an article I already read a year ago. Last year it was 106. What do you expect in a city of 3,5 million? 0? 50?
You read an article from last month a year ago? Wow that's impressive
The statistic has been out longer then the article and I read that. I dont need to read what some journalist writes about a topic that I have a degree in when he has none.
LOL Why dont you move the goalpost some more sweetie? Stop LYING about reading it and just say that instead. Really hurts any credibility you might have, which is obviously none at this point. And at least admit you lied instead of coming up with excuses you don't need to read it. Gfy :D
I'm all for ignoring journalists, but I also don't lie about it while claiming others aren't "intellectually equipped" for analysis.
Neither does he.
"50" I mean it used to be 69 in 2016 sooo
And then the Strafrechtsnovelle went into effect and changed the definiton of rape. See thats the problem. You have no background knowledge about this topic at all Sexual criminal law got changed in 2017 as a consequence of the metoo controversy which also took place in Germany with multiple prominent cases [https://www.buzer.de/gesetz/6165/v201459-2016-11-10.htm](https://www.buzer.de/gesetz/6165/v201459-2016-11-10.htm)
So why did Gang rapes increase even prior to 2016? Why was 2015 lower than 16 and why was 2020 lower than 2023? Sure changing the legal definition of rape would have some affect but that still doesn't explain rise in rape prior to 2017 and after. Should we also talk about what percentage are committed by foreigners despite being only 20 percent of berlin?
> why was 2020 lower than 2023? gee i wonder what could possibly have happened in 2020 that resulted in fewer opportunities for groups of people to do crime
We are talking about approx 100 cases. High fluctuation is to be expected with such a low size of total crimes
That's the pot calling the kettle block if I've ever seen it. Please get help, defending a rapist isn't a good look.
Facts right here.
The article is accurate
Its not
don't trust your lying eyes and lying ears. It was a perfectly just sentence! NEVER doubt the government and the judicial system.
Do you have an argument or do you prefer populist gibberish?
Because a thief on parole and skipping their hearing gets two days of detention while a teenager received a suspended sentence for sexual assault? Edit: “[she] was sentenced to a weekend in jail after her comments because she had a previous conviction for theft and had not attending the court hearing for the case.”
Because of people arguing that this whole situation is anything close to acceptable.
Far right is what they call normal people who disagree with them.
She probably voted for the laws that put her in prison, all of them being anti freedom of speech of course
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Yeah then he might actually get in trouble
I don't know about Germany, but France saw a surge of women voting for far-right parties. Maybe Europeans should stop protesting the far-right and find out why they're gaining support.
This "news" is highly misleading. And removing democracy because you are unhappy is a pretty stupid take.
> removing democracy Come again? How is supporting far right parties "removing democracy"? Being able to vote for the party that fights for your security is the literal purpose of a democracy? Or are you one of those types that deems anyone that disagrees with you a nazi/bigot/racist/sexist/literal hitler etc?
German right wing AfD is pretty Nazi.
Which political party are they trying to ban in Germany?
The guy talks about banning a legitimate political party and then rambles about protecting democracy. LMAO!!
Do you actually believe that you will have any form of democracy or influence once you become a minority in your own country?
As you stated above: you don't know about Germany
Do you know about pro-caliphate protests i Germany? This is the real threat to democracy and it's just a matter of time at this point, if you look at the demographic projections. But sure, keep being naive.
the pro-caliphate movement isn't backed by political power. 40% Nazis in the Eastern states is pretty scary for Germany.
Just because a movement doesn't have political power right now, doesn't mean it never will. You should know that, especially when talking about Germany. You need asses the current situation and then extrapolate. As demographics are shifting, more people will be pro-caliphate and more conflicts will occour. It will lead to escalation and extremists on both sides will gain more power. I mean, just look at other countries where silimar demographic shifts took place.
I do not agree with your statement, which seems to be fear-driven to me.
It's not fear driven, it's driven by reason and desire to live in a secure country. It's driven by desire to avoid conflicts.
Hate doesn't avoid conflict. Communication does.
Krauts speed running national failure.
More like speedrunning a fourth reich. These kinds of events only fuel AfD more.
> The case has laid bare Germany’s harsh defamation laws, which criminalise causing offence with even mild slurs like “idiot”. Breaking the law can lead to punishment of up to two years in prison. > Hamburg authorities are now investigating around 140 more suspects for insulting or threatening the gang rapists, with 100 of the suspects based outside Hamburg. hmm
It's all nonsense. This isn't about defamation. Defamation is a civil matter. You get fines for civil matters if at all.
It shouldn’t even be a thing like this. Hard German L
Lmfao
God, if I was in Germany, I'd be in prison for the rest of my life because of reddit alone.
That user name tho...
Its grossly oversimplified. "ACAB" is a good exmaple because there is a lot of case law regarding that. If you would write ACAB on reddit thats not a crime. If you shout ACAB at a specific group of policemen its can qualify as an insult but it is only pursued if the person that was insulted proposes a motion. And its a fine. The 2 year max sentence is for insane cases and hardcore reoffenders. You dont get a prison fine for calling your neighbour and idiot. You get a prison fine if you psychological terrorize your neighbour by repeatedly dehumanizing him over a lenghty spell of time and after multiple prior verdicts.
What the actual fuck? Is this true?
technically yes? There are so many other cases to show how bad rape gets prosecuted that it's odd that people fixate on this one though, i guess the headline sticks? This case is just overall messy which lead to this result. Everyone but one got prosecuted on sexual assault rather than rape and juvenile law (lesser sentences) got applied because of their age so that's why the sentences were so low here. And there was other shit going on like her being on parole for theft so they had to prosecute her somehow.
She also got the weekend in jail for missing the court date, not for what she wrote
It's not technically true. The person who was jailed isn't even the victim.
The article yesterday people were all about policing speech when a dementia ridden 95 year old grandma didn't believe in the Holocaust. This is why speech shouldn't be banned if it isn't a direct threat. The government should not have the right to imprison someone just over insults.
So now anime titties is getting actual x posts from worldnews? Wasnt this originally coined as an alternative?
Even that sub was smart enough to recognize fake news and delete it. This one not so much...
Worldnews is just for racists, so it's impossible to actually say anything there.
While this sub is some sort of clueless farright club wanking about the fantasized fall of Europe, not so different
And this is the reason why the far right movement is gaining momentum in Europe courts giving a lenient sentence to crimes committed by actual criminals and punishing those who speak up
Yep, that's the false narrative here.
I digress and will look back at this comment when Germany elects a far right party
This is exactly what everyone was warning people about with the introduction of hate speech laws. This was always the intention, to demoralised the public and imprison dissidents. Together with soft on crime judges and prosecutors, and demonization of police, it's working pretty well for the people who have implemented this. So has everyone had enough yet? Are things bad enough yet?
> This was always the intention, to demoralised the public and imprison dissidents. Oh, please. She got two days of house arrest *because she was on parole for theft and missed a court date*. She's no dissident. She's an idiot who let's herself be goaded into another crime while she is enjoying the very same lenience she is attacking.
So you admitting that speech is a crime worth being hauled in front of a judge and potentially jailed, and you are fine with that. And I assume since you completely failed to address the much , much bigger half of this story, about the migrants who gang raped a child with no sentence and no remorse, perhaps you are ok with that part. But oh yes, admonish me because the person being convicted of saying bad words isn't perhaps the most model citizen.
This isn't about hate speech. What are you on about?
Wait you somehow think demoralizing the public and imprisoning dissidents is the same as demonizing police (the same police who would be imprisoning said dissidents)? Are you schizophrenic?
Police don't imprison people.
Do they politely suggest that the alleged criminal gets in the car? Do they ask nicely that the criminal drives themselves to a prison?
"Do they ask nicely that the criminal drives themselves to a prison?" Yeah? Most people get a date and have to be at the jail at that date. If you dont appear an arrest warrant is issued and the police comes to get you. Only a small amount of people is put into detention for their trial.
Alright so let me get this straight. You think that a person found guilty and sentenced to prison for a crime is allowed by the state to drive themselves to the prison for which they will be imprisoned at for a certain period of time?
I dont think that thats how this is done in Germany I know it. Unless you get a so called "Untersuchungshaft" which only gets issued if the court evaluates that you are likely to reoffend, are likely to flee the country or will try to destroy evidence you are free for the trial and until the date the court has set out for your sentence to start. If Untersuchungshaft is issued the time done during it will be shaped of the final sentence Keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of people going to prison arent murders and rapists. Those crimes dont happen as often as things like theft or fraud. Most people are doing short terms for low level crimes.
You are confusing arrest or detention pending parole/trial with imprisonment. In most western nations it's the police's job to enforce the law and arrest those breaking it, but in order for someone to be sent to prison they must be prosecuted, receive a trial, be found guilty by a jury and then sentenced by a judge. The police do none of that bar the arrest.
You don’t understand the point. Police in America (which is what we’re talking about because that’s where defund the police came from) both arrest alleged criminals and transport them to jail/prison directly following sentencing.
You are arguing semantics on a tangent. Try to bring it back to your original argument because you currently don't have a point
The Telegraph is not a legitimate source.
Big surprise. Muslim rapists get a pass because “those poor people. Look how mean our ancestors were to them” They were mean for a reason.
He got probation because German law doesn't allow sentencing minors to prison. Religion had nothing to do with it
Yes but right wingers will try to pin everything to religion/extranationality
Thats just not true. Meier göring said in an interview with der spiegel: [Hamburg - Richterin über Vergewaltigungsprozess: »Mein Bild ist jetzt auf Höckes Facebook-Seite« - DER SPIEGEL](https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/hamburg-richterin-ueber-vergewaltigungsprozess-mein-bild-ist-jetzt-auf-hoeckes-facebook-seite-a-ceef1640-15c5-4409-a47b-ccf8f79579c9) **SPIEGEL**: But only one of the defendants has to go to prison. **Meier-Göring**:"Yes, because in this case we assume that only a prison sentence will deter him from committing further crimes. In the case of the other eight defendants, however, we expect that they will remain crime-free even without serving a juvenile sentence. But for four defendants we want to examine this expectation more closely for six months." Also, they were only tried as minors. They weren't all minors. The judge can in some cases try adults as minors in germany if they lack education and such
They were all age 14-17, except on guy who was 21. This guy was the one sentenced to prison
*"Although the rapists were ages 17 to 21 at the time of the horrific crime, they were tried in a youth court"* *and* *"Only one rapist, a 19-year-old, received prison time. He was sentenced to two years and nine months in prison without parole."* [German judge lets 8 men who gang-raped girl walk free | Blaze Media (theblaze.com)](https://www.theblaze.com/news/german-judge-lets-8-men-who-gang-raped-girl-walk-free) Are you straight up just spouting lies to defend rapists? Which source says something different from my sources? I want to know where you get your information from(assuming you aren't just blatantly lying)
...Didn't a White Dutch child rapist just get accepted into the Olympics? And aren't there millions of white men coming to his defense? This is what happens when people like you try to draw attention to *only* migrant crimes. You never actually prevent the violence, because you found a new scapegoat to blame. Weak prosecution against rapists is a society-wide issue, but you're being pushed to only focus on *one* demographic, so that you don't ask for the larger, necessary societal changes. And because of that, nothing is actually done to protect women. Why bother addressing rape culture and the "boys will be boys" attitude that permeate it, when you can just handwave it all to one demographic? >They were mean for a reason. Really? Let me see your ancestors...
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Okay...like, you want a response? Want someone to be shocked and clutch their pearls? 90% sure you're a troll anyway, but... Believe your weird terminally online shit. Just don't be surprised when nothing in society improves, because you're always blaming another new scapegoat.
Based
Based on being a virgin
Extraordinarily based
> ...Didn't a White Dutch child rapist just get accepted into the Olympics? And aren't there millions of white men coming to his defense? Have you ever seen the same far-right people being upset about Brock "The Rapist" Turner? When it's a white kid/one of "them", they're suddenly all "Oh, no the precious boy with such a bright future".
*white boys globally get way softer sentences than brown people for the same crimes* "Ohh but the white boy is the victim!!!"
To all German lawmakers, legislators, leaders with any influence and CERTAINLY to the perpetrators in this case and any other which involves violent crimes against a victim(s). You are ALL 'disgraceful pigs', 'disgusting freaks' and profound idiots and pinheads. This would get me jailed in Germany. What a clown show of absurdity.
And AfD gains another percentage point…
Yeah, because they basically live off fake news like this.
This thread is pathetic - it sums up Reddit to a tee. A bunch of sanctimonious, vengeful wankers falling for inaccurate rage-bait and throwing hissy fits by saying “This is why the far right is rising!” Yeah, it’s rising because of the proliferation of inaccurate rage-bait articles like this one, that people don’t even bother to fact check, and that cause people to get angry at scenarios that don’t exist. Everyone here responding with retributive indignation, everyone complaining about how this fuels far right rhetoric, is contributing to that very rhetoric, and they’re too stupid to even realise it. So depressing to see.
Amen to that. The right wing and its financiers really figured out how to weaponize social media perfectly.
With news articles like this how do far right parties NOT gain ground?
It's fake news.
ok not going back to germany after this shit
"Maja R was sentenced to a weekend in jail because she had a previous conviction for theft and not attending the court hearing for the case." bad article, buries the lede
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People being sentenced for telling the truth is never good. Germany has sunk low.
She got sentenced for skipping a court date for theft. This was an unrelated incident which she just also happened to be tangentially involved in. 140 people were investigated for harassment of the rapist, because that's illegal regardless of what kind of person the victim is, even if they are the scum of the earth like in this case. She was the only one of those who got sentenced, because of her prior criminal history.
>140 people were investigated for harassment of the rapist This part alone shows how important free speech is and how Germany has become a clown nation
They didn't post this on social media in public they got a hold of the persons phone number and texted them repeatedly including threats of violence. That is harassment.
The whole country should publicly insult these bastards in solidarity. What are they gonna do? Imprison 80 million people?
See. This is easily explain…. The rapist… isn’t white. Maybe next time this white woman should learn her place in society.
Germans looking at the US/Israel punching and kicking at the air because they aren't the biggest bad guys on the planet rn. They doing their best though it seems.
How is it defamation whenits private comunication and true?
Its a bullshit article. She didnt got 2 days detentions for defamation. She got 2 days detention because she was on parole for theft and skipped her court hearing regarding the defamation case.
This is why extreme right wing parties like AfD, PVV, RN, PiS, Fratelli d'Italia, FPÖ etc. getting votes.
If you ever wonder why the right-wing is growing in popularity in Europe, this is why.
So she was sentenced to a weekend in jail for her previous charge, not for the defamatory comments, yes? Am I reading that correctly?
my summary: defamation in isolation doesn't give you jailtime in germany. you get a fine. she didn't go to jail for just defamation. she was on probation for theft. you definitely go to jail for rape in germany the one guys didnt gang bang her. they comittet sexual harassment. most of them under juvenile law
Don’t wanna see a German saying anything about any other countries justice system
Germany is a joke these days. They argue about the semantics of rape and care more about that then the actual crimes. I’m not surprised by anything I read anymore.
Were the man who partook in the gang rape Muslim or Arabic? Why are we giving these people a pass for heinous crimes? Because of cultural differences? Isn’t it racist in itself to assume that young Muslim Arabic men can’t control themselves and will sexually abuse women if given the opportunity? Punish them like we would punish anybody else They don’t get a pass on sexual assault because they happen to come from a region of our planet that allows such atrocities to be committed in the open
They are punished like anybody else
No they aren’t. Only one man spent time in jail after committing rape.
No the article is not factual. They got found guilty of §177 sexual assault, sexual coercion and rape. Only one person was found guilty of the qualification of rape. 2 accused were acquitted the rest was found of guilty of sexual assault and received parole or preparole under juveline criminal law. Preparole means that the court sets a date normally 6 months and they take a look if you managed to turn your life around otherwise its jail.