its bad for sure, medical personnel should be held to a higher standard.
but theyre only putting a bandaid on the problem and getting lesser nurses to work for lesser pay when the problem is admin refuses to hire on 75nurses for 100k salaries and instead only wants 40nurses on 60k salaries. keeping the skeleton crew operation afloat.
I work down the hall from our Admin and hear them literally get off calls with the CEO crying because they can't get approved for more staff. It's daily they're asking too. Hospitals shouldn't have CEOs and Share holders.
That's definitely a concern, but I wouldn't say public healthcare is much better in regard to staffing issues. We are constantly short staffed in Canada as well. I am constantly hearing about people leaving their careers, I was one of them.
Every state so far requires you to take the NCLEX examination to be a registered nurse. Yes it is true you are licensed in the state you take the test in however everyone in the nation is taking the same exact test. This is why as a nurse you can apply for a Compact license after taking the NCLEX exam. This license allows nurses to work in 41 out of the 50 states and pay one licensing fee to be covered in these states. The remaining 9 states require you to apply to there state and pay there licensing fee in order to work there. No
Further testing is required.
This is a accelerated BSN program with rigorous training. You are not certified after graduating the program ABSN programs are around the country and typically require you to already have a bachelors degree in a related field to be admitted. People in Georgia still need to sit for the NCLEX licensure exam.
A YEAR? The program I'm in is 16 months and it still feels extremely compact, and is shorter than some other ABSN programs I've heard of.
Edit: I apologize if I double commented on this. Reddit doesn't want to let me go back to my comments so I can't find where the other one is
Ahahahah that’s how I feel about some NPs who can prescribe medication for patients and the only clinical experience they have is from nursing school….. it should at least be 4 to 5 years of Critical Care experience wether it’s ED at a LVL 1 or ICU before they can even think of entering NP school
“We’ve excited to announce that we have had our best performing financial year, ever! Due to this record breaking year, we will unfortunately have to reduce staff by 15%. We wish those of you directly affected luck in your future endeavors.”
IMO for-profit hospitals shouldn't exist. They shouldn't be able to just hoard money for the board.
That probably goes hand in hand with universal Healthcare, idk.
Profit is the difference between labor costs and what you can charge for a given good or service. Under capitalism, the incentive is to drive labor costs down as much as possible, through things like thread-bare staffing, having employees work doubles, and lobbying to relax licensing requirements (to expand the labor pool and drive wages down). The only way out is through unionization.
Other way out is through not for profit healthcare.
It works brilliantly in loads of other countries but sadly some office managers and drug company reps don’t get to drive Porsches and some people who own hospitals don’t get to own yachts so, it’s a no go.
Good point. I do think the end goal of unionization could be public healthcare (the nursing union in CA is backing a bill for public healthcare in California rn) but you’re right.
It’s a crazy thing. I have several RNs and LPNs in my family. From the outside, people tend to assume that they make a good living, and often they do, but no amount of money can offset the fact that doctors, nurses, and patients are basically being sacrificed on the altar of profit. These are educated and talented people, seeing the decisions being made, watching staff count dip lower and lower without hiring new people, the endless documentation and paperwork, the continual push to reduce the time and quality of care, to squeeze every cent out of everyone. I hear a group of doctors is suing an insurance company, trying to argue that their denial of care is essentially practicing medicine without a license. I hope they win, and set precedent, because we can do some math and determine what it would cost to provide everyone with adequate care, but there’s no way to satisfy shareholders. It’s a black hole of endless insatiable avarice, there’s no such thing as enough.
> I hear a group of doctors is suing an insurance company, trying to argue that their denial of care is essentially practicing medicine without a license.
This is fantastic. Good luck to them!
This is what happens when healthcare is for-profit instead of for-public. Not only do Hospitals get run into the ground, Insurance companies cover you based on the algorithm they learned directly from *Satan*.
It has become a criminal offense and prohibited act by law to strike as a healthcare worker in many places here in the USA.
Many healthcare workers are being prohibited even from shopping the market to find and secure a better job.
edited
This is so true there are non compete clauses hospitals make medical providers and some nurses sign where they can not work for another organization in a 50 mile radius. (Not sure how this would stand up in court tho).
Unfortunately, not entirely.
Non profit, public benefits and publicly owned corporations are excluded from the new FTC rule. This hits the medical industry hardest of all, because so many hospitals are organized this way.
Medical residents are exempt from antitrust legislation and with how you get your residency job (through the match) you're compelled to accept your job, working conditions and all.
As a child the majority of my family members were healthcare workers in some capacity.
Today very few of us remain in the field, most of my family members who still operate as health advocates have gone over to serving animals instead of people.
The only major accident I have been in was caused by a nurse getting off their 12th night shift falling asleep at the wheel less than a mile from the hospital and blowing through a red light.
Healthcare employers always trot out this bogus study that says there are less medical errors when there are less shift changes, so they use that to justify understaffing and prolonged shifts. Clearly that results should be furthered questioned when healthcare workers are driving their cars off a cliff because they're so exhausted.
The guy who invented the system of “you should do this much medical school in this much time by doing 90 hour weeks” was literally a cocaine addict.
Stunning no one has thought that it might be better to have rested people.
My MIL took a huge pay cut to leave the ER and move to an outpatient position. Her mental health couldn't handle it, and while I have worked some stressful jobs, I don't blame her, I would probably snap under those pressures
Even outpatient healthcare, we ain’t okay. Today my co-workers puppy died whie his kids and mom were at home with it and they wouldn’t even let him take a half day off.
## Improving Your Working Conditions: Key Resources
### Useful Search Terms
For finding specific information about worker rights and unions in any country, use the following search terms:
- ["COUNTRYNAME worker unions"](https://www.google.com/search?q=COUNTRYNAME+worker+unions)
- ["COUNTRYNAME worker rights"](https://www.google.com/search?q=COUNTRYNAME+worker+rights)
- ["COUNTRYNAME employment law"](https://www.google.com/search?q=COUNTRYNAME+employment+law)
- ["COUNTRYNAME labor organizations"](https://www.google.com/search?q=COUNTRYNAME+labor+organizations)
### Global Resources
1. **Workers' Unions**
- [International Trade Union Confederation (ITUC)](https://www.ituc-csi.org/): Represents workers worldwide.
- [IndustriALL Global Union](http://www.industriall-union.org/): Represents workers in mining, energy, and manufacturing sectors.
2. **Activist Organizations**
- [Solidarity Center](https://www.solidaritycenter.org/): Supports workers' rights globally through training and advocacy.
- [Clean Clothes Campaign](https://cleanclothes.org/): Focuses on improving working conditions in the global garment industry.
3. **General Information**
- [International Labour Organization (ILO)](https://www.ilo.org/): Provides global labor standards and policy advice.
- [Global Workers Justice Alliance](https://globalworkers.org/): Supports cross-border employment justice.
### North America
1. **Employment Law**
- [U.S. Department of Labor](https://www.dol.gov/): Comprehensive information on employment laws, worker rights, and protections.
- [Cornell Law](https://www.law.cornell.edu/): Access to federal and state employment statutes.
- [Employment and Social Development Canada (ESDC)](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development.html): Information on labor laws and worker rights in Canada.
- [Ministry of Labor (Mexico)](https://www.gob.mx/stps): Provides resources on Mexican labor laws and worker rights.
2. **Workers' Unions**
- [AFL-CIO](https://aflcio.org/): Largest federation of unions in the U.S. offering resources and support for workers.
- [SEIU](https://www.seiu.org/): Service Employees International Union focusing on healthcare, public services, and property services.
- [Canadian Labour Congress (CLC)](https://canadianlabour.ca/): Represents the interests of over three million affiliated workers in Canada.
- [CROC (Mexico)](https://www.croc.org.mx/): Confederación Revolucionaria de Obreros y Campesinos, representing Mexican workers.
3. **Activist Organizations**
- [Fight for $15](https://fightfor15.org/): Campaign advocating for raising the minimum wage to $15/hour.
- [National Employment Law Project (NELP)](https://www.nelp.org/): Advocates for policies to create good jobs and strengthen protections for workers.
- [CILAS](https://cilas.org/): Center for Labor Research and Training, focusing on labor rights in Central America.
### Asia
1. **Employment Law**
- [International Labour Organization (Asia)](https://www.ilo.org/asia/lang--en/index.htm): Regional office providing resources on labor laws and policies.
- [ASEAN](https://asean.org/): Association of Southeast Asian Nations, focusing on labor standards and employment policies.
2. **Workers' Unions**
- [BATU](https://www.bwint.org/): Building and Wood Workers' International representing construction workers in Asia.
3. **Activist Organizations**
- [Asia Monitor Resource Centre](https://www.amrc.org.hk/): Advocacy and research on labor issues in Asia.
### Europe
1. **Employment Law**
- [European Commission](https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=157): Overview of EU labor laws and worker rights.
- [Eurofound](https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/): European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions.
2. **Workers' Unions**
- [ETUC](https://www.etuc.org/): European Trade Union Confederation representing workers at the European level.
- [UNI Global Union](https://www.uniglobalunion.org/): Represents more than 20 million workers from over 150 countries.
3. **Activist Organizations**
- [LabourStart](http://www.labourstart.org/): International trade union news and campaigns.
- [Social Platform](https://www.socialplatform.org/): Network of NGOs fighting for social justice and equality.
### Africa
1. **Employment Law**
- [African Union (AU)](https://au.int/en/department-labor): Labor and employment policies for African countries.
- [International Labour Organization (Africa)](https://www.ilo.org/africa/lang--en/index.htm): Regional office providing resources on labor laws and policies.
2. **Workers' Unions**
- [ITUC-Africa](http://www.ituc-africa.org/): International Trade Union Confederation representing African workers.
3. **Activist Organizations**
- [African Labour Research Network](https://www.alrn.org/): Provides research and advocacy on labor issues in Africa.
### Latin America
1. **Employment Law**
- [OAS](http://www.oas.org/): Organization of American States providing resources on labor laws and policies.
- [International Labour Organization (Latin America)](https://www.ilo.org/americas/lang--en/index.htm): Regional office providing resources on labor laws and policies.
2. **Workers' Unions**
- [CLATE](https://clate.net/): Confederation of Latin American Workers representing public sector employees.
3. **Activist Organizations**
- [LATINDADD](https://latindadd.org/): Advocacy network focusing on labor rights and economic policies in Latin America.
### South America
1. **Employment Law**
- [Ministry of Labour (Brazil)](https://www.gov.br/trabalho/): Provides information on Brazilian labor laws and worker rights.
- [Ministry of Labour (Argentina)](https://www.argentina.gob.ar/trabajo): Offers resources on labor laws and employment policies in Argentina.
2. **Workers' Unions**
- [CUT (Brazil)](https://www.cut.org.br/): Central Única dos Trabalhadores, representing a wide range of workers in Brazil.
- [CGT (Argentina)](https://www.cgt.org.ar/): Confederación General del Trabajo, one of the largest labor unions in Argentina.
3. **Activist Organizations**
- [REBRIP](https://rebrip.org.br/): Brazilian Network for the Integration of Peoples, focusing on social and labor rights.
### Middle East
1. **Employment Law**
- [Ministry of Human Resources (UAE)](https://www.mohre.gov.ae/): Provides information on labor laws and worker rights in the United Arab Emirates.
- [Ministry of Labor (Saudi Arabia)](https://mlsd.gov.sa/): Offers resources on Saudi labor laws and employment policies.
2. **Workers' Unions**
- [GFITU (Iraq)](https://www.gfitu.org/): General Federation of Iraqi Trade Unions, representing workers in Iraq.
3. **Activist Organizations**
- [Arab Trade Union Confederation](https://www.arabtradeunion.org/): Supports workers' rights and labor movements across the Arab world.
### Oceania
1. **Employment Law**
- [Fair Work Ombudsman (Australia)](https://www.fairwork.gov.au/): Information on workplace rights and obligations in Australia.
- [Employment New Zealand](https://www.employment.govt.nz/): Resources on employment rights and responsibilities in New Zealand.
2. **Workers' Unions**
- [Australian Council of Trade Unions (ACTU)](https://www.actu.org.au/): Peak body representing Australian workers.
- [New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (NZCTU)](https://www.union.org.nz/): Represents the interests of workers in New Zealand.
3. **Activist Organizations**
- [GetUp!](https://www.getup.org.au/): Australian advocacy organization working on economic fairness, environmental sustainability, and social justice.
- [First Union](https://www.firstunion.org.nz/): Represents workers in various sectors in New Zealand, advocating for fair wages and conditions.
### Additional Resources
1. **Legal Assistance**
- Legal Aid Societies: Offer free or low-cost legal services to low-income individuals.
- Pro Bono Services: Many law firms provide pro bono (free) services for workers facing unfair labor practices.
2. **Online Communities**
- [Working America](https://www.workingamerica.org/): Community affiliate of the AFL-CIO, focusing on advocacy and organizing for working-class issues.
By utilizing these resources, workers around the world can access critical information on their rights, join unions, and engage with activist organizations to improve their working conditions.
---
Please feel free to copy and paste this information as comments to other worker rights related subreddit posts
My country has government funded healthcare and nurses still have 12 hour shifts. I've had this conversation with a nursing manager. Besides the fact they the majority want to keep the 12 hour shifts, end of shift hand offs are correlated with increased clinical errors
My first look source isn't great, but it sources a study where a 90% reduction in hand offs between healthcare providers lead to 70% less medical errors. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2649/
Great Ormond Street Hospitals called in Formula One pit teams to teach them how to do a handoff and their mistakes dropped significantly.
Exhausting staff isn't the answer. Better handover systems is.
The answer is increased staff imo. More ease of vacation and sick time use, less mandatory OT, less workload when fully staffed on the floor/proper staffing instead of using LPN for RN etc.
Yeah that's true.
In my country it's because we can't find staff and increasing need of services. Around here they're making a good wage, over 3x median worker, but still struggle to find enough
Yep. A hospital would look at that pit crew and think “why does it take eight people to change four tires? Cut half of them and make it the four most experienced people.”
I worked at a for-profit healthcare company for eight years. We would literally be told in meetings that the only thing that matters is the doctors because they make the money.
So yeah.
You know something is wrong when *legally* they are allowed to make you work 30+ hours in a single shift and only have to give you 10 hours off before you can work again. That shit is INSANE!
In Canada they're not opening enough slots in med schools to create the number of doctors and nurses we need for the future. I know a bunch of pre-med students who had to go overseas for med school because there weren't enough openings at any school in the country.
Most of those med students stayed in those countries to work after finishing, so we are losing out even more.
We don’t even have positions either. I work in long-term care and our staff-to-patient ratios are abhorrent, especially for elders with dementia. We could be drastically raising quality of life for people with just a few more full-time HCW and Nursing positions, instead we struggle to keep casuals and resort to restraints—chemical or physical. Not to mention the patients waiting to be placed in LTC to begin with when there aren’t enough beds because the government won’t adequately find health care.
It *always* comes down to money. Underpaid health professionals, underfunded hospitals and clinics, and not enough of either because again, no funding. It’s truly sad.
Do you mean healthcare employees being employed by governments? It's been done before (see the UK), but I don't know if it necessarily solves these staffing issues.
I just mean other countries have the nursing shortage, too, and aren't "for profit" healthcare like the US.
If I left the first part off and just said there's a nursing shortage everywhere, people would have come out of the woodwork to argue with me. Obviously someone who says that is defending our health care system and is saying "everywhere else sucks too". I try to use disclaimers on reddit because people come at you with the dumbest shit.
I work at the VA. Staffing here is *terrible* right now. It's been a longstanding issue, but congress refusing to pass a new budget has absolutely hamstrung us. Our primary care and mental health departments especially are facing critical shortages.
It used to be because you didn’t want to change doctors in the middle of taking care of someone as that increased the error rate as care was handed over to another doctor.
I believe that's still the reason most hospital workers involved in patient care (doctors, nurses, etc.) work 12-hour shifts instead of 8-hour shifts. That doesn't explain on-call rotations and longer-than-12-hour shifts though.
And hospitals should have enough on-call rooms that someone doesn't have to sleep in their car.
*Most* of the time, the call rooms are for the docs and resident docs because they work 80+ hours per week (can only speak for the places I’ve worked). Hospitals don’t give a shit about the nurses, because we cost them money (they can’t bill bedside nursing care to insurance). *Most* on-call shifts for nurses have the expectation to be at the facility within 45 minutes of being called in, so they make the excuse that you can technically just sleep at home and come in when you’re called. Shitty, but that’s our healthcare system in the US.
Nah it’s because 8 hour shifts would require 3 nurses per 24 hours. 12 hour shifts only require 2 nurses to cover the same amount of time. It’s always about the money.
That doesn't make much difference financially because they are paid per hour. It's usually about staffing, at least for the facilities. If you are short on nurses, it's easier to get by with 12 hour shifts than 8 hours shifts.
Also most nurses prefer 12 hour shifts.
Hourly salary isn’t the only expense for having an employee. Insurance, administrative costs, and mandatory training are all per-employee costs that encourage keeping headcount down.
If the nurses make (for example) $10 per hour, they are still paying $240 for the 24 hours. Whether it's 2 nurses or 3 nurses. So that being about the money doesn't make sense.
There have been multiple studies that show that handoffs increase errors with patient care. That is always what's been cited as reasons for the longer shifts. Now you obviously run into errors with exhausted doctors with 24- or 36-hour shifts, so it's a balance between the two. But that's why it's not 8.
The research shows that every hour past 8 that is worked has a significant increase in the risk of medical errors. That risk increases with each additional hour. Shorter shifts prevent errors. 3 nurses do cost more than 2 due to benefits. Often night shift has a shift differential. If you add a mid shift then you will likely need to pay them a differential as well. But day shift working until 7:30 in the evening just gets paid straight time. So smaller total staff size and fewer shift differentials paid resulting in less cost to the hospital.
A good portion of the blame goes to this guy right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stewart_Halsted
He was the inventor of residency programs in the US, and the majority of licensed doctors in the country can trace at least some part of their training back to his policies. He was also a *massive* cocaine addict (it was legal back then) and expected the residents he trained to also use. So by the time cocaine was finally made illegal multiple-day shifts were such an ingrained norm that nobody stopped to think "hey, maybe we should reevaluate this to *not* assume every doctor will go on a four day bender whenever they're on the clock".
I had to basically beg to get someone to takeover after staying 20 hours into a 12 hour shift at a community hospital I worked at. I lived 2 miles away and still didn’t remember driving home. What seems like “normal” when you are in the field is absolutely absurd when you move out. I will never work for a hospital again.
Because they can squeeze more work out of healthcare providers to save money, so they do. Health care providers will take a lot of abuse and still perform as best they can because they don’t want to hurt their patients.
> It is unknown what level of exhaustion this nurse was experiencing...
I'm sure they meant to say they don't know the state of the exhaustion she was SUFFERING from.
But yeah, she doesn't know the struggles CEOs have to deal with.q
So Truck drivers have limits on the amount of driving they can do before they have to stop and rest for a minimum period. Having the same thing for people who are in charge of keeping other people alive seems like a good thing to do.
Edit: a letter
Maybe the main difference is the truck driver could ALSO accidentally destroy whatever they're hauling. $$$
But yeah, nobody should have to work such hours.
The only car wreck I have ever been in was after an overnight double nursing, when I turned left, into a car at a light. Nobody got hurt, my insurance paid him out, but after an unexpected overnight, I was so tired I could not see straight.
That was two decades ago, and it's only gotten so very much worse now.
Driving exhausted has to be some of the most dangerous driving you can do, rivaled only by drugged/intensely inebriated driving. Some people would scoff at you for refusing to drive tired while encouraging you not to drive buzzed.
It’s a scary thing I wish we as a society talked about more, especially when it comes to ensuring our workers are getting enough sleep to not be dangerous to themselves or others. Current nursing industry is insane
My wife was a nurse. After 5 years of marriage and watching this job completely consume her while paying her a ridiculous pittance of a salary, I told her to tell them to go fuck themselves. She's been retired from nursing for 3 years now and we live off of just my salary. I do IT for a living, we've halfway to replacing her old salary in the 4 raises I've gotten since she left nursing. She never got a raise without changing jobs. This society is hellbent on chewing up and spitting out anyone who wants to help people for a living. It's a major reason that we're fucked for the foreseeable future. Until we throw off the chains of capitalism, it is only going to get worse.
>This society is hellbent on chewing up and spitting out anyone who wants to help people for a living.
Not just nurses, but teachers, social workers, anybody who wants to help. If you don't contribute to the profit of the 1%, you have to be punished.
Teaching too.
They want people who barely passed their GED exam to stand in a room while reading a script. They want behaviors to escalate and children in need of academic intervention to fail so they can point to public schools and justify ending them.
Real teaches and real nurses can't afford to be abused more for even less pay. So lower the bar to open the doors for lower class uneducated people who will accept the pay and conditions.
Especially the maintenance, cleaning jobs where minorities work for whatever minimum wage they can get, and no benefits, or the gig jobs… but we let that happen
I've noticed a lot of businesses are cutting the cleaning and maintenance jobs entirely. Which is why the local vet office is a guaranteed place for your pet to catch fleas, and the walls of the fast food restaurants are grimy and oily.
I used to work at a place that had three maintenance guys. The dining room gleamed, the kitchen shined, and folks weren't ashamed to feed their families there. I quit maybe a year after they fired the last maintenance guy, and golly the place was absolutely disgusting. Like if you stopped there to use the bathroom and get coffee, you'd probably get back in the car and go down the block because the coffee out of a machine and gas station bathrooms will probably be more sanitary.
Was in the dishpit around the corner from the office, actually heard the owner tell the GM to just assign maintenance tasks to regular employees as necessary. Within a month she was trying to order me up a ladder onto the roof of the building to I don't even know what because NO I'm not a professional repair person and was hired to bag food and smile while counting change and pushing buttons ON THE GROUND!
They want everyone to maximize effort and dangle raises and promotions to incentivize it, yet never deliver. Then they hire someone from outside and pay them nearly double what they pay you. The negotiation table closes as soon as you’re hired.
Cause messing around in someone’s brain after not sleeping a whole day sounds like a great idea! Not. Absolutely wild. Doctors and nurses should have to have rest periods just like truckers do.
It’ll never happen because big hospitals pay politicians to keep these laws out of the books but it definitely should be a thing.
> It'll never happen because big hospitals pay politicians to keep these laws out of the books but it definitely should be a thing.
To anyone who doubts that this is the case, it DEFINITELY is. I just had a meeting with Senator Ron Wyden's team. They verbally CONFIRMED to me that THE reason that healthcare staffing reform is DEAD in Congress is 100% due to lobbying. I.e. big hospitals pay politicians to keep these laws out of the books. A SENATOR'S OFFICE TOLD ME THAT DIRECTLY.
I know this is nowhere near as serious, but I’m a lifeguard and this summer we are severely understaffed and have guards working insane hours in the sun, giving them basically three or four hours of sleep between shifts. When the topic of paying people more, the head guy said he’d rather sit on stand himself than be held hostage to another discussion of wage.
We have had a number of incidents over the last couple months due to this.
I don't think I can agree that that's less serious. Drowning can happen so fast - and I know you know that better than I do. Alertness is critical as a lifeguard!
For 12 years I drove 2 hours *each way* for work. I worked 16 hours a day 5 days a week.
I'm flabbergasted that I only had one accident (on my day off of course!).
Just as I was going out on disability my state put in mandatory overtime.
Y'all. They need you way more than you need them. Look after yourselves or you'll end up like me.
A broken nurse who misses working and for the first time has hobbies.
Get your hobbies now whilst you're whole and young.
Take a day to date your kids or yourself.
Take the vacation all at once, not long weekends.
Don't answer your phone outside of work, they don't pay you enough.
It's not your job to find a replacement, that's what managers get paid to do.
HR is not your friend, they're there to protect the company.
If you get even a paper cut fill up the workers comp paperwork to protect yourself, you never know if it'll get MRSA.
Take your breaks, even if you have to pitch a fit, eating is important.
Nurses bladder should not be a thing, go to the bathroom.
Jobs are a dime a dozen. Don't be afraid to be pushy about boundaries, respect and pay.
Nurses **quit eating your young** we're all in the same boat.
Self care is the most important bit.
This is what is driving so many to leave lifelong professions at record levels in industries where they truly cannot be replaced in sufficient quantity to serve the public need for their contribution to society.
Healthcare especially, logistics and workers in food services are where this is most affecting our economy and society.
“Lack of adequate help”
Ummm they purposely keep hospitals under staffed… why pay two people for working 60+ hours when we could pay one to work 77 hours…
They keep us understaffed until the day JCAHO arrives. Then we're fully staffed for a single day, and even then, they leave at 4p. Once they're gone, people get sent home left and right
It's worth reminding how consequential these jobs are in relation of the light shone on sleep deprivation here. We're not talking about people working a drive-thru.
I had to pull over to take naps sometimes on my way home from my night shifts. It sucked because I was driving in rush hour in both directions, coming in at 7pm and leaving at 730am.
This says so much about the state of our healthcare system and how it treats its employees. Despicable.
Another thing I want to point out, is that this also reveals flaws in our transportation infrastructure. No one should have to DRIVE tired. That is so dangerous and causes so many accidents. It would be safer for everyone if we had widespread decent public transportation, like trains, trams, buses, and subways. She shouldn't have to risk her life driving tired. She should have better options. Our car dependency is another huge problem besides overworking and underpaying people. There's a lot that needs to be fixed. I feel so bad for her.
Hospitals NEED to be accountable for the effects of overworking their staff. It should be criminal the way they schedule workers for completely insane shifts. It doesn't need to be this way, it's simply poor management and greedy stakeholders.
Limp is key. My martial arts instructor always stressed to go limp when you're expecting any kind of uncontrolled impact. Which is great in theory, but can't really be controlled if you're surprised.
Healthcare, in general, sucks all around. Both for people working in healthcare, and those trying to receive it. The entire industry is broken, probably beyond repair. I am a nurse in a super cushy outpatient clinic (federal) and I still hate the culture and industry. I am grateful though, I do know what I have and I know I’m lucky. With my 8-4, Monday - Friday, with all weekends and holidays off. However I see first hand how shitty it can get for everyone involved. (USA here, I can’t speak for other countries)
Wait until you hear about the fire fighters and paramedics working 24-48 with some services, like the one I work for, allowing no down time for safety… shit is messed up in healthcare and first response.
Nurses are the ones who have to do all of the direct patient care. Overworking your nurses and understaffing your hospital will kill patients. Nurses definitely deserve more money but even if someone is making $100/hr there is a cap on how many hours you can work and how many patients you can care for before you start making mistakes.
This has been going on for years: MAs, nurses, physicians and other healthcare workers. Regardless of job title, it’s despicable the hours one is kept awake to provide care. Resident and attending physicians routinely can be awake for 24+ hours when on call. Those who can create change, don’t care. Going from “uncapped” to “capped” hours in residency put an 80 hour limit on the workweek, but this is averaged over 4 weeks. You could work a 100-hour week and as long as the next week is 60-hours you’d be back on target. It’s slave labor. It’s dangerous staffing. It’s not appropriate for medical training or patient care.
It's crazy that outside of a place like this, everyone else is blaming the victim.
"Get a different job then"
"Ive been tired but Im not going to be this stupid"
"Someone who does that cannot be trusted with another persons life"
I wanna stab my brain.
My mums 48 yrs old and has been a nurse my entire life. For the past year, she's been working around 110 hrs in a week as they refuse to hire anyone and will only schedule her to be on call. Don't know how many times I've tried to meet up with her to see her or do something, but she's working a 20 - 24 hr shift. It's utter bs and something needs to be done
There is no way in hell their belief about longer shifts reducing errors is accurate, especially at 12 hours.
In almost every complex field, people start making more mistakes after 6~ hours. In software development we all acknowledge the wall you hit where you start adding more bugs than removing them. It just feels like something they perpetuate for us to be okay with them further exploiting medical workers.
I totaled my car on the way home from a shift once because I fell asleep. I hadn’t gotten sleep before my night shift and I was out of sick time so I went in anyway. Rough shift, heavy patients and I just couldn’t stay awake on the way home. Fortunately everyone was okay, but it was really scary
I’m a nurse. I did nights when I first started. I remember nodding off at lights, and pulling into my garage and thinking “how did I get here.” Nights is HARD and so are days! Hospitals these days are constantly understaffed and the nurses are overwhelmed. The pandemic sped things up but the system is failing.
I had a nurse ass end me after her shift. Literally drove her big ass truck full speed right into the back of my car.
My back still feels it...but I got a massive check.
“I mean, I have driven home from working nights with the window open, slapping my face to keep myself awake.”
As a nurse, I hate how many times I have done that to get home….
I think hopsitals should run 5-6 shifts of people, and only have nurses work 4-6 hrs total per day. Round their pay up so they still get payed the same obviously. But of course this wont happen because the corporation(the hospital) wouldnt like losing money for something as trivial as that...
My ex was a surgeon doing her residency and would call me on the way home to stay awake. She fell asleep at the wheel more than once, even while on fucking FaceTime. I swear I aged years in a matter of months trying to get her to let me come pick her up or something. There were times I’d get to her place with some food for dinner and she’d be asleep in her car, parked, door wide open on the street outside her apartment. It was fucking wild.
Being awake for 18hrs, is like a blood alcohol level equivalent to impairment. She was caring patients minutes before driving off of that roof.
https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/eg24nw/til_that_being_awake_for_18_hours_straight_makes/
If anyone gives a crap, here's the actual news report instead of a bunch of screen shots. https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/suffolk-county/i-was-exhausted-boston-nurse-drives-off-top-floor-hospital-garage-after-shift/
Working in a hospital is hell for any shift workers. Worked overnights and 6pm to 2am as an emergency therapist. I certainly almost passed out like this
All of these issues are easily fixed by mandatory staffing levels with strict enforcement. No more skeleton crews for nurses, it puts everyone involved in danger
We used to have an Assistant Manager who stepped down after she successfully got her RN degree, everyone was so thrilled for her for getting a degree that she could escape the drudgery of retail She lined up her dream job at a big local hospital, had great benefits, a hefty sign on bonus if she finished a year which she could use to pay off some of her student loans, good pay. She lasted about 2 months. She was working rotating shifts with literally any set of hours in a given week, overnight on Monday and 6am-6pm on Tues etc. and was routinely working 16hr days after doing her paperwork, meaning often she was working not within legal time between shifts. She was falling asleep constantly and said she was operating in a fog of sheer exhaustion, and couldnt do basic tasks without error. Pretty alarming since she is working in a major hospital, on human beings. She ended up quitting her dream job. She got a job at a different hospital, same short staffing issues plus insanely rude people, lasted about 3 weeks. She came back to work more retail shifts, and ended up getting a pretty cozy job as a nurse at the Methadone clinic, saying at least the crack heads were nice to her, and it was a set schedule. All that work to become an RN, ended up working at a drug clinic. Nurses are not ok, its not even a "nobody wants to work," it was just so incredibly toxic and unhealthy that nurses are leaving in droves
I work at a hospital and all of our machines are old and failing. In a meeting recently we were told that we were almost not paid the previous week, guilting us about how much it costs to staff a hospital, and announced that 3 ppl would be canned to lighten the financial load. I hate this and every hospital. Our CEO closed the elderly care homes becus it wasn't profitable, says a lot about this place.
If you know a nurse or anyone who works in a hospital PLEASE check on them and check in regularly. They are not ok. They are exhausted, overworked, and have no support. Suicide rates of healthcare workers increased during the pandemic (I know this post is about an accident but the woman could have died, and the accident was avoidable). If you want to know why, read Tristin Kate Smith’s suicide note, her family made it public to spread awareness of the issue
Hospital workers are not OK
ya see adequate staffing solves the issue. but greedy admin just goes "were bleeding money. reeee"
They’re lowering the requirements to become a nurse in the south. Not feeling great about that.
its bad for sure, medical personnel should be held to a higher standard. but theyre only putting a bandaid on the problem and getting lesser nurses to work for lesser pay when the problem is admin refuses to hire on 75nurses for 100k salaries and instead only wants 40nurses on 60k salaries. keeping the skeleton crew operation afloat.
I work down the hall from our Admin and hear them literally get off calls with the CEO crying because they can't get approved for more staff. It's daily they're asking too. Hospitals shouldn't have CEOs and Share holders.
Private hospitals should not be a thing. Clinics at most.
AI is not the solution here. Edit: I'm so sorry I don't know how this comment got there. You're not who I meant to say that too!
How long until stupid CaeOs make AI cry, too?!
Your good! I think it was for the other person promoting AI nurses? Lmao
“You’ll learn on the job! Some patients may die, but…you know the rest.”
Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
We all must sacrifice for the shareholders.
Or we shouldn’t monetize health care to the degree it is in the United States.
healthcare shouldn't be monetized at all!
That's definitely a concern, but I wouldn't say public healthcare is much better in regard to staffing issues. We are constantly short staffed in Canada as well. I am constantly hearing about people leaving their careers, I was one of them.
Meanwhile giving themselves annual COL raises
So many nurses could've been hired full time with all the surcharge hospitals spent on travel nurses the past years. Or so i hear.
The lean staffing 'business model' does NOT belong in the care professions.
How are they lowering requirements to become a nurse in the south? And I’m what states? Every nurse needs to pass a national exam.
States can create their own regulations for nurses and your nursing license is state issued, not federal, no?
Every state so far requires you to take the NCLEX examination to be a registered nurse. Yes it is true you are licensed in the state you take the test in however everyone in the nation is taking the same exact test. This is why as a nurse you can apply for a Compact license after taking the NCLEX exam. This license allows nurses to work in 41 out of the 50 states and pay one licensing fee to be covered in these states. The remaining 9 states require you to apply to there state and pay there licensing fee in order to work there. No Further testing is required.
Georgia is offering a < 1 year program to become certified
This is a accelerated BSN program with rigorous training. You are not certified after graduating the program ABSN programs are around the country and typically require you to already have a bachelors degree in a related field to be admitted. People in Georgia still need to sit for the NCLEX licensure exam.
A YEAR? The program I'm in is 16 months and it still feels extremely compact, and is shorter than some other ABSN programs I've heard of. Edit: I apologize if I double commented on this. Reddit doesn't want to let me go back to my comments so I can't find where the other one is
They did it for education so how bad can it be? /s
Oh shit maybe they'll stop caring about my felony and let me finish my studies
Can we kick them out of the nursing compact? I don't want half nurses working alongside me.
Ahahahah that’s how I feel about some NPs who can prescribe medication for patients and the only clinical experience they have is from nursing school….. it should at least be 4 to 5 years of Critical Care experience wether it’s ED at a LVL 1 or ICU before they can even think of entering NP school
“We’ve excited to announce that we have had our best performing financial year, ever! Due to this record breaking year, we will unfortunately have to reduce staff by 15%. We wish those of you directly affected luck in your future endeavors.”
IMO for-profit hospitals shouldn't exist. They shouldn't be able to just hoard money for the board. That probably goes hand in hand with universal Healthcare, idk.
"were bleeding money!" Admins make more then doctors and the CEO gets tens of millions in bonuses. Gotta love it.
Profit is the difference between labor costs and what you can charge for a given good or service. Under capitalism, the incentive is to drive labor costs down as much as possible, through things like thread-bare staffing, having employees work doubles, and lobbying to relax licensing requirements (to expand the labor pool and drive wages down). The only way out is through unionization.
Other way out is through not for profit healthcare. It works brilliantly in loads of other countries but sadly some office managers and drug company reps don’t get to drive Porsches and some people who own hospitals don’t get to own yachts so, it’s a no go.
Good point. I do think the end goal of unionization could be public healthcare (the nursing union in CA is backing a bill for public healthcare in California rn) but you’re right.
It’s a crazy thing. I have several RNs and LPNs in my family. From the outside, people tend to assume that they make a good living, and often they do, but no amount of money can offset the fact that doctors, nurses, and patients are basically being sacrificed on the altar of profit. These are educated and talented people, seeing the decisions being made, watching staff count dip lower and lower without hiring new people, the endless documentation and paperwork, the continual push to reduce the time and quality of care, to squeeze every cent out of everyone. I hear a group of doctors is suing an insurance company, trying to argue that their denial of care is essentially practicing medicine without a license. I hope they win, and set precedent, because we can do some math and determine what it would cost to provide everyone with adequate care, but there’s no way to satisfy shareholders. It’s a black hole of endless insatiable avarice, there’s no such thing as enough.
> I hear a group of doctors is suing an insurance company, trying to argue that their denial of care is essentially practicing medicine without a license. This is fantastic. Good luck to them!
Won't change anything. They'll just hire somebody with a license to "consult" and advise the denials.
Pharmacists too! Every hospital has a secret pharmacist stash, they just keep us in the basement in a windowless room.
Yeah, the hospital says you're the reason tylenol is $12 a capsule. I guess they're trying to justify keeping you in a windowless dungeon.
But no techs for anyone! Did you check the fridge? - Sincerely a lonely overnight CPhT
Very well said!
One Dr mentions how he looks up the person they're going to have a peer to peer with and usually they haven't practiced medicine in years.
This is what happens when healthcare is for-profit instead of for-public. Not only do Hospitals get run into the ground, Insurance companies cover you based on the algorithm they learned directly from *Satan*.
Severely overworked, under paid, abused. They should all be striking. They are killing themselves and patients.
It has become a criminal offense and prohibited act by law to strike as a healthcare worker in many places here in the USA. Many healthcare workers are being prohibited even from shopping the market to find and secure a better job. edited
This is so true there are non compete clauses hospitals make medical providers and some nurses sign where they can not work for another organization in a 50 mile radius. (Not sure how this would stand up in court tho).
Those non competes have been made universally illegal.
Unfortunately, not entirely. Non profit, public benefits and publicly owned corporations are excluded from the new FTC rule. This hits the medical industry hardest of all, because so many hospitals are organized this way.
Medical residents are exempt from antitrust legislation and with how you get your residency job (through the match) you're compelled to accept your job, working conditions and all.
Allied healthcare worker here and can confirm
As a child the majority of my family members were healthcare workers in some capacity. Today very few of us remain in the field, most of my family members who still operate as health advocates have gone over to serving animals instead of people.
Healthcare worker here. No, we are definitely NOT ok
The only major accident I have been in was caused by a nurse getting off their 12th night shift falling asleep at the wheel less than a mile from the hospital and blowing through a red light.
Healthcare employers always trot out this bogus study that says there are less medical errors when there are less shift changes, so they use that to justify understaffing and prolonged shifts. Clearly that results should be furthered questioned when healthcare workers are driving their cars off a cliff because they're so exhausted.
Executives with MBAs are doing great, workers with medical training need help.
Execs serve the interests of the owner class, not their fellow employees. They are not workers.
Ok, that's fair.
Most of the people we depend on for society are not OK.
The guy who invented the system of “you should do this much medical school in this much time by doing 90 hour weeks” was literally a cocaine addict. Stunning no one has thought that it might be better to have rested people.
Nurses are the most caring people ever and they are being exploited world wide
My MIL took a huge pay cut to leave the ER and move to an outpatient position. Her mental health couldn't handle it, and while I have worked some stressful jobs, I don't blame her, I would probably snap under those pressures
Even outpatient healthcare, we ain’t okay. Today my co-workers puppy died whie his kids and mom were at home with it and they wouldn’t even let him take a half day off.
## Improving Your Working Conditions: Key Resources ### Useful Search Terms For finding specific information about worker rights and unions in any country, use the following search terms: - ["COUNTRYNAME worker unions"](https://www.google.com/search?q=COUNTRYNAME+worker+unions) - ["COUNTRYNAME worker rights"](https://www.google.com/search?q=COUNTRYNAME+worker+rights) - ["COUNTRYNAME employment law"](https://www.google.com/search?q=COUNTRYNAME+employment+law) - ["COUNTRYNAME labor organizations"](https://www.google.com/search?q=COUNTRYNAME+labor+organizations) ### Global Resources 1. **Workers' Unions** - [International Trade Union Confederation (ITUC)](https://www.ituc-csi.org/): Represents workers worldwide. - [IndustriALL Global Union](http://www.industriall-union.org/): Represents workers in mining, energy, and manufacturing sectors. 2. **Activist Organizations** - [Solidarity Center](https://www.solidaritycenter.org/): Supports workers' rights globally through training and advocacy. - [Clean Clothes Campaign](https://cleanclothes.org/): Focuses on improving working conditions in the global garment industry. 3. **General Information** - [International Labour Organization (ILO)](https://www.ilo.org/): Provides global labor standards and policy advice. - [Global Workers Justice Alliance](https://globalworkers.org/): Supports cross-border employment justice. ### North America 1. **Employment Law** - [U.S. Department of Labor](https://www.dol.gov/): Comprehensive information on employment laws, worker rights, and protections. - [Cornell Law](https://www.law.cornell.edu/): Access to federal and state employment statutes. - [Employment and Social Development Canada (ESDC)](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development.html): Information on labor laws and worker rights in Canada. - [Ministry of Labor (Mexico)](https://www.gob.mx/stps): Provides resources on Mexican labor laws and worker rights. 2. **Workers' Unions** - [AFL-CIO](https://aflcio.org/): Largest federation of unions in the U.S. offering resources and support for workers. - 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[BATU](https://www.bwint.org/): Building and Wood Workers' International representing construction workers in Asia. 3. **Activist Organizations** - [Asia Monitor Resource Centre](https://www.amrc.org.hk/): Advocacy and research on labor issues in Asia. ### Europe 1. **Employment Law** - [European Commission](https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=157): Overview of EU labor laws and worker rights. - [Eurofound](https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/): European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions. 2. **Workers' Unions** - [ETUC](https://www.etuc.org/): European Trade Union Confederation representing workers at the European level. - [UNI Global Union](https://www.uniglobalunion.org/): Represents more than 20 million workers from over 150 countries. 3. **Activist Organizations** - [LabourStart](http://www.labourstart.org/): International trade union news and campaigns. - [Social Platform](https://www.socialplatform.org/): Network of NGOs fighting for social justice and equality. ### Africa 1. **Employment Law** - [African Union (AU)](https://au.int/en/department-labor): Labor and employment policies for African countries. - [International Labour Organization (Africa)](https://www.ilo.org/africa/lang--en/index.htm): Regional office providing resources on labor laws and policies. 2. **Workers' Unions** - [ITUC-Africa](http://www.ituc-africa.org/): International Trade Union Confederation representing African workers. 3. **Activist Organizations** - [African Labour Research Network](https://www.alrn.org/): Provides research and advocacy on labor issues in Africa. ### Latin America 1. **Employment Law** - [OAS](http://www.oas.org/): Organization of American States providing resources on labor laws and policies. - [International Labour Organization (Latin America)](https://www.ilo.org/americas/lang--en/index.htm): Regional office providing resources on labor laws and policies. 2. **Workers' Unions** - [CLATE](https://clate.net/): Confederation of Latin American Workers representing public sector employees. 3. **Activist Organizations** - [LATINDADD](https://latindadd.org/): Advocacy network focusing on labor rights and economic policies in Latin America. ### South America 1. **Employment Law** - [Ministry of Labour (Brazil)](https://www.gov.br/trabalho/): Provides information on Brazilian labor laws and worker rights. - [Ministry of Labour (Argentina)](https://www.argentina.gob.ar/trabajo): Offers resources on labor laws and employment policies in Argentina. 2. **Workers' Unions** - [CUT (Brazil)](https://www.cut.org.br/): Central Única dos Trabalhadores, representing a wide range of workers in Brazil. - [CGT (Argentina)](https://www.cgt.org.ar/): Confederación General del Trabajo, one of the largest labor unions in Argentina. 3. **Activist Organizations** - [REBRIP](https://rebrip.org.br/): Brazilian Network for the Integration of Peoples, focusing on social and labor rights. ### Middle East 1. **Employment Law** - [Ministry of Human Resources (UAE)](https://www.mohre.gov.ae/): Provides information on labor laws and worker rights in the United Arab Emirates. - [Ministry of Labor (Saudi Arabia)](https://mlsd.gov.sa/): Offers resources on Saudi labor laws and employment policies. 2. **Workers' Unions** - [GFITU (Iraq)](https://www.gfitu.org/): General Federation of Iraqi Trade Unions, representing workers in Iraq. 3. **Activist Organizations** - [Arab Trade Union Confederation](https://www.arabtradeunion.org/): Supports workers' rights and labor movements across the Arab world. ### Oceania 1. **Employment Law** - [Fair Work Ombudsman (Australia)](https://www.fairwork.gov.au/): Information on workplace rights and obligations in Australia. - [Employment New Zealand](https://www.employment.govt.nz/): Resources on employment rights and responsibilities in New Zealand. 2. **Workers' Unions** - [Australian Council of Trade Unions (ACTU)](https://www.actu.org.au/): Peak body representing Australian workers. - [New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (NZCTU)](https://www.union.org.nz/): Represents the interests of workers in New Zealand. 3. **Activist Organizations** - [GetUp!](https://www.getup.org.au/): Australian advocacy organization working on economic fairness, environmental sustainability, and social justice. - [First Union](https://www.firstunion.org.nz/): Represents workers in various sectors in New Zealand, advocating for fair wages and conditions. ### Additional Resources 1. **Legal Assistance** - Legal Aid Societies: Offer free or low-cost legal services to low-income individuals. - Pro Bono Services: Many law firms provide pro bono (free) services for workers facing unfair labor practices. 2. **Online Communities** - [Working America](https://www.workingamerica.org/): Community affiliate of the AFL-CIO, focusing on advocacy and organizing for working-class issues. By utilizing these resources, workers around the world can access critical information on their rights, join unions, and engage with activist organizations to improve their working conditions. --- Please feel free to copy and paste this information as comments to other worker rights related subreddit posts
I have never understood why we force the people caring for our health to work such unhealthy shifts. It's so backwards.
Because the people at the top making the rules don’t care about anything except money.
My country has government funded healthcare and nurses still have 12 hour shifts. I've had this conversation with a nursing manager. Besides the fact they the majority want to keep the 12 hour shifts, end of shift hand offs are correlated with increased clinical errors My first look source isn't great, but it sources a study where a 90% reduction in hand offs between healthcare providers lead to 70% less medical errors. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2649/
Great Ormond Street Hospitals called in Formula One pit teams to teach them how to do a handoff and their mistakes dropped significantly. Exhausting staff isn't the answer. Better handover systems is.
The answer is increased staff imo. More ease of vacation and sick time use, less mandatory OT, less workload when fully staffed on the floor/proper staffing instead of using LPN for RN etc.
But you see this would cost money and that means less money for shareholders.
Yeah that's true. In my country it's because we can't find staff and increasing need of services. Around here they're making a good wage, over 3x median worker, but still struggle to find enough
Yep. A hospital would look at that pit crew and think “why does it take eight people to change four tires? Cut half of them and make it the four most experienced people.”
Ok great, but there must be a better way to achieve similar results without working people to the brink of death
Yeah that would be increasing staff
So let’s do that, and then staff won’t be exhausted and increase errors and irritability on the job
If only it were as easy as saying it
I worked at a for-profit healthcare company for eight years. We would literally be told in meetings that the only thing that matters is the doctors because they make the money. So yeah.
You know something is wrong when *legally* they are allowed to make you work 30+ hours in a single shift and only have to give you 10 hours off before you can work again. That shit is INSANE!
Right? There should be limits on hours on/minimum hours off just like for pilots. This is so unsafe for everyone
Also patient:nurse ratios.
Because that's what "for profit" healthcare gets you.
I want government sponsored health care I'm just saying - there's a nursing shortage everywhere, not just US.
In Canada they're not opening enough slots in med schools to create the number of doctors and nurses we need for the future. I know a bunch of pre-med students who had to go overseas for med school because there weren't enough openings at any school in the country. Most of those med students stayed in those countries to work after finishing, so we are losing out even more.
We don’t even have positions either. I work in long-term care and our staff-to-patient ratios are abhorrent, especially for elders with dementia. We could be drastically raising quality of life for people with just a few more full-time HCW and Nursing positions, instead we struggle to keep casuals and resort to restraints—chemical or physical. Not to mention the patients waiting to be placed in LTC to begin with when there aren’t enough beds because the government won’t adequately find health care. It *always* comes down to money. Underpaid health professionals, underfunded hospitals and clinics, and not enough of either because again, no funding. It’s truly sad.
Do you mean healthcare employees being employed by governments? It's been done before (see the UK), but I don't know if it necessarily solves these staffing issues.
I just mean other countries have the nursing shortage, too, and aren't "for profit" healthcare like the US. If I left the first part off and just said there's a nursing shortage everywhere, people would have come out of the woodwork to argue with me. Obviously someone who says that is defending our health care system and is saying "everywhere else sucks too". I try to use disclaimers on reddit because people come at you with the dumbest shit.
I work at the VA. Staffing here is *terrible* right now. It's been a longstanding issue, but congress refusing to pass a new budget has absolutely hamstrung us. Our primary care and mental health departments especially are facing critical shortages.
I live in Canada and our nurses and doctors are massively overworked too. Public Healthcare is no guarantee against a culture of overwork
It used to be because you didn’t want to change doctors in the middle of taking care of someone as that increased the error rate as care was handed over to another doctor.
I believe that's still the reason most hospital workers involved in patient care (doctors, nurses, etc.) work 12-hour shifts instead of 8-hour shifts. That doesn't explain on-call rotations and longer-than-12-hour shifts though. And hospitals should have enough on-call rooms that someone doesn't have to sleep in their car.
*Most* of the time, the call rooms are for the docs and resident docs because they work 80+ hours per week (can only speak for the places I’ve worked). Hospitals don’t give a shit about the nurses, because we cost them money (they can’t bill bedside nursing care to insurance). *Most* on-call shifts for nurses have the expectation to be at the facility within 45 minutes of being called in, so they make the excuse that you can technically just sleep at home and come in when you’re called. Shitty, but that’s our healthcare system in the US.
Ah, that's unfortunate and I didn't know that.
yeah the fact they don’t have a quiet comfortable room to nap in— *at the very least*— is baffling
Nah it’s because 8 hour shifts would require 3 nurses per 24 hours. 12 hour shifts only require 2 nurses to cover the same amount of time. It’s always about the money.
That doesn't make much difference financially because they are paid per hour. It's usually about staffing, at least for the facilities. If you are short on nurses, it's easier to get by with 12 hour shifts than 8 hours shifts. Also most nurses prefer 12 hour shifts.
Hourly salary isn’t the only expense for having an employee. Insurance, administrative costs, and mandatory training are all per-employee costs that encourage keeping headcount down.
If the nurses make (for example) $10 per hour, they are still paying $240 for the 24 hours. Whether it's 2 nurses or 3 nurses. So that being about the money doesn't make sense. There have been multiple studies that show that handoffs increase errors with patient care. That is always what's been cited as reasons for the longer shifts. Now you obviously run into errors with exhausted doctors with 24- or 36-hour shifts, so it's a balance between the two. But that's why it's not 8.
The research shows that every hour past 8 that is worked has a significant increase in the risk of medical errors. That risk increases with each additional hour. Shorter shifts prevent errors. 3 nurses do cost more than 2 due to benefits. Often night shift has a shift differential. If you add a mid shift then you will likely need to pay them a differential as well. But day shift working until 7:30 in the evening just gets paid straight time. So smaller total staff size and fewer shift differentials paid resulting in less cost to the hospital.
A good portion of the blame goes to this guy right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stewart_Halsted He was the inventor of residency programs in the US, and the majority of licensed doctors in the country can trace at least some part of their training back to his policies. He was also a *massive* cocaine addict (it was legal back then) and expected the residents he trained to also use. So by the time cocaine was finally made illegal multiple-day shifts were such an ingrained norm that nobody stopped to think "hey, maybe we should reevaluate this to *not* assume every doctor will go on a four day bender whenever they're on the clock".
This here is the real answer
I had to basically beg to get someone to takeover after staying 20 hours into a 12 hour shift at a community hospital I worked at. I lived 2 miles away and still didn’t remember driving home. What seems like “normal” when you are in the field is absolutely absurd when you move out. I will never work for a hospital again.
Yet we're spending $800B to the military and not universal healthcare blows my mind
Because they can squeeze more work out of healthcare providers to save money, so they do. Health care providers will take a lot of abuse and still perform as best they can because they don’t want to hurt their patients.
> It is unknown what level of exhaustion this nurse was experiencing... I'm sure they meant to say they don't know the state of the exhaustion she was SUFFERING from. But yeah, she doesn't know the struggles CEOs have to deal with.q
Poor CEO, this might drive the stock 1/2 a point down, ohh what a catastrophe!!
Hey they get up at 5:30 man! I mean I'm a nurse and I get up at 4:40 every morning so hopefully that means I'll be a billionaire that much sooner 😉
If this was the logic then bakers would be the richest people on earth.
So Truck drivers have limits on the amount of driving they can do before they have to stop and rest for a minimum period. Having the same thing for people who are in charge of keeping other people alive seems like a good thing to do. Edit: a letter
As a former truck driver, I approve this message.
Well if truck drivers make a mistake while being fatigued, they could kill people. A nurse who’s fatigued…never mind.
Maybe the main difference is the truck driver could ALSO accidentally destroy whatever they're hauling. $$$ But yeah, nobody should have to work such hours.
To frame it for the capitalists you have to remember humans are still used in productivity for the time being
Dang. That’s deep.
The only car wreck I have ever been in was after an overnight double nursing, when I turned left, into a car at a light. Nobody got hurt, my insurance paid him out, but after an unexpected overnight, I was so tired I could not see straight. That was two decades ago, and it's only gotten so very much worse now.
Driving exhausted has to be some of the most dangerous driving you can do, rivaled only by drugged/intensely inebriated driving. Some people would scoff at you for refusing to drive tired while encouraging you not to drive buzzed. It’s a scary thing I wish we as a society talked about more, especially when it comes to ensuring our workers are getting enough sleep to not be dangerous to themselves or others. Current nursing industry is insane
I have definitely swerved on my way home from a midnight shift. A switched to days a month ago and I’ll never go back.
I've heard stories of residents after shifts blacking out while driving and hitting a tree. Thankfully no one was hurt.
I also am a nurse and got into a wreck after a night shift. Luckily I slowed before the collision
My wife was a nurse. After 5 years of marriage and watching this job completely consume her while paying her a ridiculous pittance of a salary, I told her to tell them to go fuck themselves. She's been retired from nursing for 3 years now and we live off of just my salary. I do IT for a living, we've halfway to replacing her old salary in the 4 raises I've gotten since she left nursing. She never got a raise without changing jobs. This society is hellbent on chewing up and spitting out anyone who wants to help people for a living. It's a major reason that we're fucked for the foreseeable future. Until we throw off the chains of capitalism, it is only going to get worse.
Damn. I'm also in IT. If you're able to support both of you from your IT salary, do you need help on the IT team 😬
Me too!!!🥴
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Did your wives get along with each other? Or was it more of a secret-family type situation?
Asking the important questions
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My condolences
Sequentially or Concurrently? Because I know software guys can make a mint but the broad field got me wondering...
>This society is hellbent on chewing up and spitting out anyone who wants to help people for a living. Not just nurses, but teachers, social workers, anybody who wants to help. If you don't contribute to the profit of the 1%, you have to be punished.
That's why they're lowering requirements. So they can pay even less at the expense of patient safety.
Teaching too. They want people who barely passed their GED exam to stand in a room while reading a script. They want behaviors to escalate and children in need of academic intervention to fail so they can point to public schools and justify ending them.
Real teaches and real nurses can't afford to be abused more for even less pay. So lower the bar to open the doors for lower class uneducated people who will accept the pay and conditions.
Especially the maintenance, cleaning jobs where minorities work for whatever minimum wage they can get, and no benefits, or the gig jobs… but we let that happen
I've noticed a lot of businesses are cutting the cleaning and maintenance jobs entirely. Which is why the local vet office is a guaranteed place for your pet to catch fleas, and the walls of the fast food restaurants are grimy and oily. I used to work at a place that had three maintenance guys. The dining room gleamed, the kitchen shined, and folks weren't ashamed to feed their families there. I quit maybe a year after they fired the last maintenance guy, and golly the place was absolutely disgusting. Like if you stopped there to use the bathroom and get coffee, you'd probably get back in the car and go down the block because the coffee out of a machine and gas station bathrooms will probably be more sanitary. Was in the dishpit around the corner from the office, actually heard the owner tell the GM to just assign maintenance tasks to regular employees as necessary. Within a month she was trying to order me up a ladder onto the roof of the building to I don't even know what because NO I'm not a professional repair person and was hired to bag food and smile while counting change and pushing buttons ON THE GROUND!
They want everyone to maximize effort and dangle raises and promotions to incentivize it, yet never deliver. Then they hire someone from outside and pay them nearly double what they pay you. The negotiation table closes as soon as you’re hired.
Automation funded universal basic income pays you to throw off the chains of capitalism, at least partially
The bosses and shareholders don't care if employees and customers die as long as the line keeps going up.
shareholders + healthcare. what could possibly go wrong.
Good thing exhaustion in healthcare workers has never killed a patient… right?
It's okay, we'll just blame the healthcare workers!!! -Many execs, DEFINITELY (Signed, a bitter and burnt out nurse)
Can we just talk about the neurosurgery residents who are on-shift doing consults and surgery for 24 hours.
Cause messing around in someone’s brain after not sleeping a whole day sounds like a great idea! Not. Absolutely wild. Doctors and nurses should have to have rest periods just like truckers do. It’ll never happen because big hospitals pay politicians to keep these laws out of the books but it definitely should be a thing.
> It'll never happen because big hospitals pay politicians to keep these laws out of the books but it definitely should be a thing. To anyone who doubts that this is the case, it DEFINITELY is. I just had a meeting with Senator Ron Wyden's team. They verbally CONFIRMED to me that THE reason that healthcare staffing reform is DEAD in Congress is 100% due to lobbying. I.e. big hospitals pay politicians to keep these laws out of the books. A SENATOR'S OFFICE TOLD ME THAT DIRECTLY.
Yep.
The hospital should be liable for having unhealthy hour requirments.
I know this is nowhere near as serious, but I’m a lifeguard and this summer we are severely understaffed and have guards working insane hours in the sun, giving them basically three or four hours of sleep between shifts. When the topic of paying people more, the head guy said he’d rather sit on stand himself than be held hostage to another discussion of wage. We have had a number of incidents over the last couple months due to this.
I don't think I can agree that that's less serious. Drowning can happen so fast - and I know you know that better than I do. Alertness is critical as a lifeguard!
For 12 years I drove 2 hours *each way* for work. I worked 16 hours a day 5 days a week. I'm flabbergasted that I only had one accident (on my day off of course!). Just as I was going out on disability my state put in mandatory overtime. Y'all. They need you way more than you need them. Look after yourselves or you'll end up like me. A broken nurse who misses working and for the first time has hobbies. Get your hobbies now whilst you're whole and young. Take a day to date your kids or yourself. Take the vacation all at once, not long weekends. Don't answer your phone outside of work, they don't pay you enough. It's not your job to find a replacement, that's what managers get paid to do. HR is not your friend, they're there to protect the company. If you get even a paper cut fill up the workers comp paperwork to protect yourself, you never know if it'll get MRSA. Take your breaks, even if you have to pitch a fit, eating is important. Nurses bladder should not be a thing, go to the bathroom. Jobs are a dime a dozen. Don't be afraid to be pushy about boundaries, respect and pay. Nurses **quit eating your young** we're all in the same boat. Self care is the most important bit.
It’s almost like hospitals purposefully keep themselves understaffed for the sake of profit or something
terrifying. now imagine how many other insidious mistakes are being made and/or overlooked due to this that could be costing patients their lives
As a healthcare worker, I’m not surprised.
That's how my cousin died too. A nurse fell asleep at the wheel, ran a red light, and rammed into my cousin. DOA. RIP Jaime
This is what is driving so many to leave lifelong professions at record levels in industries where they truly cannot be replaced in sufficient quantity to serve the public need for their contribution to society. Healthcare especially, logistics and workers in food services are where this is most affecting our economy and society.
“Lack of adequate help” Ummm they purposely keep hospitals under staffed… why pay two people for working 60+ hours when we could pay one to work 77 hours…
They keep us understaffed until the day JCAHO arrives. Then we're fully staffed for a single day, and even then, they leave at 4p. Once they're gone, people get sent home left and right
Most importantly, did she get someone to cover her next shift!?
It's worth reminding how consequential these jobs are in relation of the light shone on sleep deprivation here. We're not talking about people working a drive-thru.
Funny how you’ll never see this level of exhaustion from billionaires. I thought they work super hard?
They don’t work as hard as this nurse and they probably have access to the best nutrition that money can buy as well
I had to pull over to take naps sometimes on my way home from my night shifts. It sucked because I was driving in rush hour in both directions, coming in at 7pm and leaving at 730am.
This says so much about the state of our healthcare system and how it treats its employees. Despicable. Another thing I want to point out, is that this also reveals flaws in our transportation infrastructure. No one should have to DRIVE tired. That is so dangerous and causes so many accidents. It would be safer for everyone if we had widespread decent public transportation, like trains, trams, buses, and subways. She shouldn't have to risk her life driving tired. She should have better options. Our car dependency is another huge problem besides overworking and underpaying people. There's a lot that needs to be fixed. I feel so bad for her.
Hospitals NEED to be accountable for the effects of overworking their staff. It should be criminal the way they schedule workers for completely insane shifts. It doesn't need to be this way, it's simply poor management and greedy stakeholders.
She drove off a 3 story building? How did she survive?
Sleepy plus air bags. Limp body and super sonic pillows.
Limp is key. My martial arts instructor always stressed to go limp when you're expecting any kind of uncontrolled impact. Which is great in theory, but can't really be controlled if you're surprised.
This is why we need socialized medical care that is regulated by the government like most other countries.
Healthcare, in general, sucks all around. Both for people working in healthcare, and those trying to receive it. The entire industry is broken, probably beyond repair. I am a nurse in a super cushy outpatient clinic (federal) and I still hate the culture and industry. I am grateful though, I do know what I have and I know I’m lucky. With my 8-4, Monday - Friday, with all weekends and holidays off. However I see first hand how shitty it can get for everyone involved. (USA here, I can’t speak for other countries)
I think companies that require people to be on-call should have dorm rooms available as an option. But I guess that would cut into profits 🤦🏻♀️
Wait until you hear about the fire fighters and paramedics working 24-48 with some services, like the one I work for, allowing no down time for safety… shit is messed up in healthcare and first response.
Nurses are the ones who have to do all of the direct patient care. Overworking your nurses and understaffing your hospital will kill patients. Nurses definitely deserve more money but even if someone is making $100/hr there is a cap on how many hours you can work and how many patients you can care for before you start making mistakes.
This has been going on for years: MAs, nurses, physicians and other healthcare workers. Regardless of job title, it’s despicable the hours one is kept awake to provide care. Resident and attending physicians routinely can be awake for 24+ hours when on call. Those who can create change, don’t care. Going from “uncapped” to “capped” hours in residency put an 80 hour limit on the workweek, but this is averaged over 4 weeks. You could work a 100-hour week and as long as the next week is 60-hours you’d be back on target. It’s slave labor. It’s dangerous staffing. It’s not appropriate for medical training or patient care.
It's crazy that outside of a place like this, everyone else is blaming the victim. "Get a different job then" "Ive been tired but Im not going to be this stupid" "Someone who does that cannot be trusted with another persons life" I wanna stab my brain.
My mums 48 yrs old and has been a nurse my entire life. For the past year, she's been working around 110 hrs in a week as they refuse to hire anyone and will only schedule her to be on call. Don't know how many times I've tried to meet up with her to see her or do something, but she's working a 20 - 24 hr shift. It's utter bs and something needs to be done
I wonder how much the hospital she works for, charged her for the ambulance.
Health care workers are among the most exploited people in society. Anyone who has a desire to help gets mercilessly taken advantage of.
There is no way in hell their belief about longer shifts reducing errors is accurate, especially at 12 hours. In almost every complex field, people start making more mistakes after 6~ hours. In software development we all acknowledge the wall you hit where you start adding more bugs than removing them. It just feels like something they perpetuate for us to be okay with them further exploiting medical workers.
I totaled my car on the way home from a shift once because I fell asleep. I hadn’t gotten sleep before my night shift and I was out of sick time so I went in anyway. Rough shift, heavy patients and I just couldn’t stay awake on the way home. Fortunately everyone was okay, but it was really scary
I’m a nurse. I did nights when I first started. I remember nodding off at lights, and pulling into my garage and thinking “how did I get here.” Nights is HARD and so are days! Hospitals these days are constantly understaffed and the nurses are overwhelmed. The pandemic sped things up but the system is failing.
I had a nurse ass end me after her shift. Literally drove her big ass truck full speed right into the back of my car. My back still feels it...but I got a massive check.
“I mean, I have driven home from working nights with the window open, slapping my face to keep myself awake.” As a nurse, I hate how many times I have done that to get home….
The guy who invented the medical residency was also severely addicted to cocaine, no wonder people can't keep up
This is the result of having a *for profit* healthcare system, and inhuman working conditions
I think hopsitals should run 5-6 shifts of people, and only have nurses work 4-6 hrs total per day. Round their pay up so they still get payed the same obviously. But of course this wont happen because the corporation(the hospital) wouldnt like losing money for something as trivial as that...
My ex was a surgeon doing her residency and would call me on the way home to stay awake. She fell asleep at the wheel more than once, even while on fucking FaceTime. I swear I aged years in a matter of months trying to get her to let me come pick her up or something. There were times I’d get to her place with some food for dinner and she’d be asleep in her car, parked, door wide open on the street outside her apartment. It was fucking wild.
Being awake for 18hrs, is like a blood alcohol level equivalent to impairment. She was caring patients minutes before driving off of that roof. https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/eg24nw/til_that_being_awake_for_18_hours_straight_makes/
Remember when they used to call us Heroes? It sounds like the hospital's pretty liable if "part of the guardrail was missing".
No job should be on call. Knowing you could be called into work at any time, even in the middle of the night, is no way to live.
When r/antiwork and r/fuckcars collide, pun intended
If anyone gives a crap, here's the actual news report instead of a bunch of screen shots. https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/suffolk-county/i-was-exhausted-boston-nurse-drives-off-top-floor-hospital-garage-after-shift/
Working in a hospital is hell for any shift workers. Worked overnights and 6pm to 2am as an emergency therapist. I certainly almost passed out like this
All of these issues are easily fixed by mandatory staffing levels with strict enforcement. No more skeleton crews for nurses, it puts everyone involved in danger
We used to have an Assistant Manager who stepped down after she successfully got her RN degree, everyone was so thrilled for her for getting a degree that she could escape the drudgery of retail She lined up her dream job at a big local hospital, had great benefits, a hefty sign on bonus if she finished a year which she could use to pay off some of her student loans, good pay. She lasted about 2 months. She was working rotating shifts with literally any set of hours in a given week, overnight on Monday and 6am-6pm on Tues etc. and was routinely working 16hr days after doing her paperwork, meaning often she was working not within legal time between shifts. She was falling asleep constantly and said she was operating in a fog of sheer exhaustion, and couldnt do basic tasks without error. Pretty alarming since she is working in a major hospital, on human beings. She ended up quitting her dream job. She got a job at a different hospital, same short staffing issues plus insanely rude people, lasted about 3 weeks. She came back to work more retail shifts, and ended up getting a pretty cozy job as a nurse at the Methadone clinic, saying at least the crack heads were nice to her, and it was a set schedule. All that work to become an RN, ended up working at a drug clinic. Nurses are not ok, its not even a "nobody wants to work," it was just so incredibly toxic and unhealthy that nurses are leaving in droves
I work at a hospital and all of our machines are old and failing. In a meeting recently we were told that we were almost not paid the previous week, guilting us about how much it costs to staff a hospital, and announced that 3 ppl would be canned to lighten the financial load. I hate this and every hospital. Our CEO closed the elderly care homes becus it wasn't profitable, says a lot about this place.
"Her shift started 10 minutes ago...does she even care about her job"! -her bosses, probably
If you know a nurse or anyone who works in a hospital PLEASE check on them and check in regularly. They are not ok. They are exhausted, overworked, and have no support. Suicide rates of healthcare workers increased during the pandemic (I know this post is about an accident but the woman could have died, and the accident was avoidable). If you want to know why, read Tristin Kate Smith’s suicide note, her family made it public to spread awareness of the issue
My gf is an ICU nurse and the hours they work is criminal
“So, you’ll be in tomorrow for work right?”
Nurses are more abused than anyone then they wonder why nobody wants to do it and why they have short staffing
its amazing how we know how horrible lack of sleep is for humans, and yet we make our hospital workers do it daily??