Was wondering why IntelliJ was crashing so much recently.
Had this just happen to me and lost about 45 minutes worth of work. There is an autosave function but by default it seems to only do it when you unfocus the IDE.
If youre working only with code you wrote and not working with libraries, it’s not impressive but I’d assume most programmers are using other people’s libraries and need to look up documentation at some point. unless an hour of coding is actually 5 minutes of coding and 55 minutes of debugging.
Most Java libraries use javadoc so the docs live with the code. Even if your lib doesn't, IntelliJ lets you open documentation for everything inline so there's no reason to open an external browser
Maybe if you're completely new to the library, but that only lasts for a day.
Most of the time you just press a hotkey to search for functions related to the word you just typed and show the docs for all those functions.
From [MacRumors](https://www.macrumors.com/2024/03/16/oracle-warns-about-macos-14-4-java-issues/). Oracle Warns macOS 14.4 Can Cause Java to Terminate Unexpectedly
> Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP!
>
> …
>
> I'd wait for Rafael's patch to go through you, but I have another error report in my mailbox of all KDE media applications being broken by v3.8-rc1, and I bet it's the same kernel bug. And you've shown yourself to not be competent in this issue, so I'll apply it directly and immediately myself.
>
> WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE!
Based
Apple has been making g decisions in contempt of their users. It totally reeks of the abusive sentiment, “we know what works best for you, why would you want anything different? How dare you!”
Ex: 3rd party app stores. They made the entire system worse for users and developers instead of honoring the spirit of what customers want. The only winner is shareholders. And maybe not even them, the only winner here may very well be the contemptuous management seeking to punish the EU.
One of my earliest introductions to programming was AppleScript. I was *way* too young to understand it.
Two decades later, I got a Mac and was happily reacquainted with it. Couldn't figure out why my paintsakingly-produced script was broken. As it turns out, Apple simply hates you and me, and has broken the automation tools with Apple Silicon.
And so, I'm typing this from Linux...
Steve Jobs famously said that they weren't letting developers use private APIs on iOS because they weren't guaranteed not to change, which means apps could crash and users would be unhappy.
Such wonderful concern for customer needs! /s
Now we routinely see gargantuan changes to iOS and MacOS even with .1 updates that cause whole apps and even your user space to suddenly crash or experience bugs.
I wonder if this impacts Minecraft and the Java runtime they use. I'm going to hold off upgrading between this and the other USB bug...
Frustrating though because I've been having a bluetooth bug where my bluetooth devices (Apple Magic Mouse and Keyboard) randomly disconnect. Was hoping an update would fix that.
Hey! I’m just starting out with modding MC and there’s barely any documentation or resources at all for doing so on Apple Silicon. May I reach out to you regarding a specific issue I’m facing on 1.16.5? (LWJGL link)
Does that version already work without modifying the LWJGL binaries to be for ARM? I'm having issues in an existing codebase not providing the correct binaries and trying to run the game using LWJGL built for x86. I'm on IntelliJ and I'm trying to wrap my head around fixing the binaries to run properly on my machine.
Edit: getting the JDK for x86 solved the issues
I don’t remember ever having to do that. But I’m part of a team and someone on it very cleverly managed to get us all running on Java 20 even for such an old version.
14.4 is one of worst builds of macOS. I could find a massive list of new bugs introduced. Thankfully I didn't update but members of my team did and they are unable to work.
i keep saying this, but reasonably, people don't listen to me since i'm a nobody lol (understandable). Shit like this is why I don't do major updates (i.e, 13 -> 14) until at least a .5 or .6 release. Doing this has saved me countless headaches.
Of course, if every user were to do this, no bugs would get fixed, but I would suggest some people start doing this anyways if stuff like this really bothers you like it does me.
Like /u/Destring [said](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/1bgcvvt/java_users_on_macos_14_running_on_apple_silicon/kv7830x/), quoting Linus Torvalds, ***don't fucking break userspace***. It's really not a hard thing to avoid, Linux has been doing it almost perfectly since creation lol (with some exceptions, ofc; sometimes userspace needs to be broken to fix userspace issues - that's not the case here with macOS 14.4 tho).
As an aside, I'm glad Linus has gotten therapy to address his anger problems, but god damn those old rants (like the one Destring linked) are funny to read sometimes.
And what is so ironic here, is that a massive bug for web developers seems fixed in 14.4. A bug that caused the hover state to not be triggered. This was such an issue even, that I couldn’t use my Mac without it.
Even with the other bugs, it was worth upgrading just to fix that.
FWIW, I've had zero issues with my M2 MBA running 14.4 connecting to a Dell U2723QE. It's not like USB-C hubs are 100% broken 100% of the time for everybody.
This happened once before with Catalina and it was a pain to use the laptop for a long time until they finally fixed it. So I'm just having flashbacks to that time. I hope I am not impacted this time. I have a Dell D6000 dock.
I usually stay on the previous version of macos until the next version is released.
so I'm still on ventura, will stay on ventura until whatever comes after sonoma is released, and then i'll go to sonoma.
Our IT prevents major release updates until they have time to vet it, but they pretty much force the minor updates like this. So now most the of the company has already updated and is dealing with IDE problems.
Same here and it's simply a problem with the release cycle of MacOS. If you stay on an old major, you still get security updates. If you are on the latest major, you don't have the luxury of getting security fixes only, you have to update the minor versions. But maybe I am unaware of some secret update system.
The problem is that you have dueling issues that are often contradictory to each other.
On one hand, updates may break something important, like this one. Normally this would be caught in the beta cycle, but, from my reading, this issue did not appear until the released version.
On the other hand, updates often patch critical CVEs. Most organizations have contractual requirements to patch CVEs in a timely basis, often as part of their Cyber Insurance requirements. For example our SecOps requires 90% of fleet patched within 14 days.
I am scheduling a meeting for Monday AM with my management to discuss this issue. A good portion of our macOS users use Java for development. We scheduled our Nudge prompt to start Monday AM, I am holding it until we can evaluate.
This release in particular had a laundry list of CVEs patched so most departments will push hard to get everyone up to date for compliance and security reasons. Unfortunately these frequently conflict with usability as changes no matter how well intentioned and tested will have unintended consequences.
Java, the absolute king of vulnerabilities, that even the install of on a system, greatly reduces its security, has the audacity to tell it's users to delay critical OS updates and fixes because, and get ready for this, found a critical bug in the way it built its shitty software.
The OS changing the signal it sends to a process from SIGSEGV to SIGKILL when trying to run code from a NX page isn't a critical bug in Java, that's an OS regression.
Anything that uses JIT can potentially be affected, not just Java.
> changing the signal it sends to a process from SIGSEGV to SIGKILL when trying to run code from a NX page
WHAT! This might not even be allowed under the Unix specs, so let's see.
It's simpler than you might think. SIGSEGV and SIGKILL have specific definitions, where SIGSEGV is for segfaults and SIGKILL is to signal a process shutdown. However, using SIGKILL in this case might still technically fit its definition if the OS really does just want to kill the process, but it was never done that way before.
Even on the desktop it's not extinct. The only version of Minecraft on the Mac runs on Java.
And in many ways despite Java's jankiness, Minecraft Java edition the more powerful, better version through the openness and modability enabled by the decompiling of Java (though Bedrock has its advantages too and is tremendously more efficient — not available on Mac though either).
Minecraft Java Edition is a weird legacy exception in many ways, but still Minecraft is big and this bug crashing Minecraft on the Mac is not ideal.
Oracle never killed java, in fact under openJDK java is better than ever. Every single person in the financial sector has used java at least once and many of them still use java. Your sim card, credit card, nfc devices all run java.
Java is far from dead. Tried and tested language with tons of support and relative to other higher level languages its fairly performant.
Lol are you uninformed or just this deliberately dense?
This isn't about legacy Java applet based macOS .app's, but Java executables (.jar files) and apps that use Java in general. Are you suggesting that nobody uses Java apps anymore? So many commercial products and enterprise applications have Java components or GUIs (including medical applications). Games like Minecraft are built in Java. Minecraft is the most sold game of all times.
Was wondering why IntelliJ was crashing so much recently. Had this just happen to me and lost about 45 minutes worth of work. There is an autosave function but by default it seems to only do it when you unfocus the IDE.
You didn’t go out of IntelliJ for 45 minutes straight? Are you a programming god or something?
Ha, I wish. Sometimes you can just see the end goal though and get tunnel visioned and go head down mode. Sadly this was one of those times...
In struggle to understand why is it so impressive.
Lmao same, when you get in the zone it can easily last for an hour
REMINDER TO STAND UP
People can go 45 min coding without a meeting ? Nowadays I seem to have one every other half hour
Startups :)
If youre working only with code you wrote and not working with libraries, it’s not impressive but I’d assume most programmers are using other people’s libraries and need to look up documentation at some point. unless an hour of coding is actually 5 minutes of coding and 55 minutes of debugging.
Most Java libraries use javadoc so the docs live with the code. Even if your lib doesn't, IntelliJ lets you open documentation for everything inline so there's no reason to open an external browser
Easier to Google than to navigate documentation manually
Maybe if you're completely new to the library, but that only lasts for a day. Most of the time you just press a hotkey to search for functions related to the word you just typed and show the docs for all those functions.
ADHD has its (rare) perks!
It definitely comes in handy sometimes!
Shortcut for saving is a habit for me.
Make each key press a commit to git !
Genius!
I vaguely remember there being another option to autosave every 1 minute or something like that. You could try that
He literally explained why it didn't work.
There are two options. One is when you unfocus the IDE, and the other is the timer
I'm sorry. You should try doing a time delay autosave instead of onfocus save
Yeah I went and enabled the “auto save after idle x seconds” option. Had it crash again a bit after but luckily no data loss this time.
From [MacRumors](https://www.macrumors.com/2024/03/16/oracle-warns-about-macos-14-4-java-issues/). Oracle Warns macOS 14.4 Can Cause Java to Terminate Unexpectedly
Before someone blames Oracle: don’t break user space https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75
He’s not angry, he’s just disappointed.
Facts. Even though he was aggressive, he was right.
> Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP! > > … > > I'd wait for Rafael's patch to go through you, but I have another error report in my mailbox of all KDE media applications being broken by v3.8-rc1, and I bet it's the same kernel bug. And you've shown yourself to not be competent in this issue, so I'll apply it directly and immediately myself. > > WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE! Based
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Apple has been making g decisions in contempt of their users. It totally reeks of the abusive sentiment, “we know what works best for you, why would you want anything different? How dare you!” Ex: 3rd party app stores. They made the entire system worse for users and developers instead of honoring the spirit of what customers want. The only winner is shareholders. And maybe not even them, the only winner here may very well be the contemptuous management seeking to punish the EU.
One of my earliest introductions to programming was AppleScript. I was *way* too young to understand it. Two decades later, I got a Mac and was happily reacquainted with it. Couldn't figure out why my paintsakingly-produced script was broken. As it turns out, Apple simply hates you and me, and has broken the automation tools with Apple Silicon. And so, I'm typing this from Linux...
What did they break in that time? Stricter sandboxing? Permissions stuff? Or is it something insidious like script throttling.
Steve Jobs famously said that they weren't letting developers use private APIs on iOS because they weren't guaranteed not to change, which means apps could crash and users would be unhappy. Such wonderful concern for customer needs! /s Now we routinely see gargantuan changes to iOS and MacOS even with .1 updates that cause whole apps and even your user space to suddenly crash or experience bugs.
Linus needs to be humbled!!!! This is so rude!!
He was better as an angry man.
He was infamously rude. He has mellowed out with the years and has apologized for previous behavior
Apart from "I'll do it myself" this letter reads like a lot of Steve Jobs stories.
Write once, crash everywhere.
A wild learn Linux tv appeared!
That’s the design, boy.
I wonder if this impacts Minecraft and the Java runtime they use. I'm going to hold off upgrading between this and the other USB bug... Frustrating though because I've been having a bluetooth bug where my bluetooth devices (Apple Magic Mouse and Keyboard) randomly disconnect. Was hoping an update would fix that.
I mod Minecraft and can confirm users have reported this occurring so yep. It’s impacting us.
Hey! I’m just starting out with modding MC and there’s barely any documentation or resources at all for doing so on Apple Silicon. May I reach out to you regarding a specific issue I’m facing on 1.16.5? (LWJGL link)
Sorry but I only mod for Minecraft 1.7.10
Does that version already work without modifying the LWJGL binaries to be for ARM? I'm having issues in an existing codebase not providing the correct binaries and trying to run the game using LWJGL built for x86. I'm on IntelliJ and I'm trying to wrap my head around fixing the binaries to run properly on my machine. Edit: getting the JDK for x86 solved the issues
I don’t remember ever having to do that. But I’m part of a team and someone on it very cleverly managed to get us all running on Java 20 even for such an old version.
Damn. Well I suppose I’m out of luck for now. Thank you though!
14.4 is one of worst builds of macOS. I could find a massive list of new bugs introduced. Thankfully I didn't update but members of my team did and they are unable to work.
i keep saying this, but reasonably, people don't listen to me since i'm a nobody lol (understandable). Shit like this is why I don't do major updates (i.e, 13 -> 14) until at least a .5 or .6 release. Doing this has saved me countless headaches. Of course, if every user were to do this, no bugs would get fixed, but I would suggest some people start doing this anyways if stuff like this really bothers you like it does me. Like /u/Destring [said](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/1bgcvvt/java_users_on_macos_14_running_on_apple_silicon/kv7830x/), quoting Linus Torvalds, ***don't fucking break userspace***. It's really not a hard thing to avoid, Linux has been doing it almost perfectly since creation lol (with some exceptions, ofc; sometimes userspace needs to be broken to fix userspace issues - that's not the case here with macOS 14.4 tho). As an aside, I'm glad Linus has gotten therapy to address his anger problems, but god damn those old rants (like the one Destring linked) are funny to read sometimes.
And what is so ironic here, is that a massive bug for web developers seems fixed in 14.4. A bug that caused the hover state to not be triggered. This was such an issue even, that I couldn’t use my Mac without it. Even with the other bugs, it was worth upgrading just to fix that.
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That's what I thought. 14.4 has been out for so long by now.
People who use usb devices should delay too. Everyone should delay !
My Corp forced me to update yesterday evening via MDM. I'm looking forward to my docking station not working come Monday.
FWIW, I've had zero issues with my M2 MBA running 14.4 connecting to a Dell U2723QE. It's not like USB-C hubs are 100% broken 100% of the time for everybody.
This happened once before with Catalina and it was a pain to use the laptop for a long time until they finally fixed it. So I'm just having flashbacks to that time. I hope I am not impacted this time. I have a Dell D6000 dock.
You might get lucky. One of my colleagues has had no issues. I’ve had nothing but issues. Both using dell monitors as hubs.
Reading all of these comments… so glad I did
Wow I’m glad I saw this!
I haven’t been able to do the update it just gets stuck as soon as it starts.
Now how am I gonna play Minecraft 😔
Just use Azul java instead of Oracle java. Better perf and runs fine for me.
https://youtu.be/zg79C7XM1Xs?si=8wby7YNpNDdUHfh0 Special song for me fellow radical Javars Hail Java
Thanks for the info. I generally avoid updating in general until a few releases since stuff like this can happen. Saves me the headache.
Should change the OS name to Sonova...
Ha! And I thought it was the EAPs just very unstable….
I usually stay on the previous version of macos until the next version is released. so I'm still on ventura, will stay on ventura until whatever comes after sonoma is released, and then i'll go to sonoma.
Great job Apple. Having a breaking change that isn't in any of the beta builds and only exists in the release one.
Idk what they are going on about. It has not stopped me running gradle and building Android apps.
If you have a production machine never running the latest OS
Our IT prevents major release updates until they have time to vet it, but they pretty much force the minor updates like this. So now most the of the company has already updated and is dealing with IDE problems.
Same here and it's simply a problem with the release cycle of MacOS. If you stay on an old major, you still get security updates. If you are on the latest major, you don't have the luxury of getting security fixes only, you have to update the minor versions. But maybe I am unaware of some secret update system.
What company, and what ide?
Jetbrains
The problem is that you have dueling issues that are often contradictory to each other. On one hand, updates may break something important, like this one. Normally this would be caught in the beta cycle, but, from my reading, this issue did not appear until the released version. On the other hand, updates often patch critical CVEs. Most organizations have contractual requirements to patch CVEs in a timely basis, often as part of their Cyber Insurance requirements. For example our SecOps requires 90% of fleet patched within 14 days. I am scheduling a meeting for Monday AM with my management to discuss this issue. A good portion of our macOS users use Java for development. We scheduled our Nudge prompt to start Monday AM, I am holding it until we can evaluate.
This release in particular had a laundry list of CVEs patched so most departments will push hard to get everyone up to date for compliance and security reasons. Unfortunately these frequently conflict with usability as changes no matter how well intentioned and tested will have unintended consequences.
Who the hell deploys macOS in production?
I meant developers. The development part is usually done via a CI/CD pipiline using gitlab
Java, the absolute king of vulnerabilities, that even the install of on a system, greatly reduces its security, has the audacity to tell it's users to delay critical OS updates and fixes because, and get ready for this, found a critical bug in the way it built its shitty software.
The OS changing the signal it sends to a process from SIGSEGV to SIGKILL when trying to run code from a NX page isn't a critical bug in Java, that's an OS regression. Anything that uses JIT can potentially be affected, not just Java.
> changing the signal it sends to a process from SIGSEGV to SIGKILL when trying to run code from a NX page WHAT! This might not even be allowed under the Unix specs, so let's see.
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It's simpler than you might think. SIGSEGV and SIGKILL have specific definitions, where SIGSEGV is for segfaults and SIGKILL is to signal a process shutdown. However, using SIGKILL in this case might still technically fit its definition if the OS really does just want to kill the process, but it was never done that way before.
Whatever makes you feel better about having to use Java lol
What’s the alternative in this case? All JIT/VM languages will face similar issues.
Whatever makes you feel better about being wrong lol
Tell us you have no clue what you’re taking about without telling us you have no clue what you’re talking about:
fix: tell *us you have no clue *what you're *talking about ...
Thanks, fixed it. Typed it pretty fast on my phone and didn’t proof read
Behave yourself. It’s the operating system that has a regression.
People living in the past should prolly delay ever updating their Apple software.
why is anyone running java?
Because a lot of great IDEs by JetBrains are written in Java for example. Or because people like to play Minecraft. Or use MatLab.
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Yes, it is alive and well
A huge chunk of the internet runs on Java. Only Java desktop applications are not a thing anymore. Besides that, it is bigger than ever.
Even on the desktop it's not extinct. The only version of Minecraft on the Mac runs on Java. And in many ways despite Java's jankiness, Minecraft Java edition the more powerful, better version through the openness and modability enabled by the decompiling of Java (though Bedrock has its advantages too and is tremendously more efficient — not available on Mac though either). Minecraft Java Edition is a weird legacy exception in many ways, but still Minecraft is big and this bug crashing Minecraft on the Mac is not ideal.
100% of blue ray players run java
All of JetBrains's IDEs run on the JVM, so this issue affects non-Java developers too.
Oracle never killed java, in fact under openJDK java is better than ever. Every single person in the financial sector has used java at least once and many of them still use java. Your sim card, credit card, nfc devices all run java. Java is far from dead. Tried and tested language with tons of support and relative to other higher level languages its fairly performant.
Is there anyone other than developers who still use Java on Mac?
minecraft players
I play Minecraft yes.
Minecraft players for one. Reverse engineers (Ghidra). Even if it just impacts developers, that's bad enough.
Lol are you uninformed or just this deliberately dense? This isn't about legacy Java applet based macOS .app's, but Java executables (.jar files) and apps that use Java in general. Are you suggesting that nobody uses Java apps anymore? So many commercial products and enterprise applications have Java components or GUIs (including medical applications). Games like Minecraft are built in Java. Minecraft is the most sold game of all times.
Java abuses system feature gets terminated who would have thought lol if you still use that garbage language you are the problem
Handling signals is not "abusing system a feature". It's a perfectly valid thing to do.
not when it comes to accessing protected areas of memory lol its better to kill apps right away than to let them explore whatever they want
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Matlab on Mac does. This probably explains the shitty behaviour I’ve had last few days :(
Enterprise Java is massive
people don't realize that their apps use Java under the hood? wtf?