You right. Speaking of resources. Why is each staff section staffed with several MSGs and field grades? Meanwhile there is a company with a SSG or SFC as the “acting 1SG”.
Which is all fun and games until the CSM calls the NCOIC asking for said MSG because “they work in your shop” and the NCOIC is like uhh not sure where they are.
I was a young S3 NCO who used to get tasked out by the shop NCOIC to go find these errant lifers. Additional duty: The ability to transform into Tommy Lee Jones from The Fugitive and track down a SFC or MSG who nobody has seen in days, lol.
As a lifer myself, this is one of my pet peeves. Like god damn, you are getting paid to work, please work. I understand if you are so broken you can’t walk or something but the folks that just fuck off because they can get away with it bother me so much.
I'm assuming that there are plenty of jobs that can be done from behind a desk. But are these desk MSGs capable of the thought needed to do the job? I mean if they are MIA more than 50% or the time and the jobs getting done.... Maybe a brave field grade has to eval them into a new job. Civilian world I digitized all the department reports. Made it that 2 office peoples work could be done by 1. Then I was the junior so I got reassigned out the door.
Need to find 20, 000 soldiers? Just cut staff jobs 20%
Because that MSG is a pusillanimous pantywaist who owes their rank to the promotion-as-a-retention-tool of the early GWOT. They’re intellectually and morally incapable of shouldering the duty of being a good First Sergeant, they know it, and so hide in the fetid windowless depths of their S-Shops, flailing the cloak of mission criticality anytime the specter of responsibility darkens their doorway.
This was and always has been an army problem, even before the war. Got a broke dick that can’t deploy? Send him to school or the S3. Got an NCO that can’t lead troops or perform their skill set? Send him to school or S3. JRTC or NTC? Send him to school or S3. NCO slept with his soldiers/soldier’s wife? Send him to school or S3.
New promotion list comes out, and SSG Broke Dick/Fuck Nuts has the promotion points to make E7. Everyone is like, what the fuck? Well, you sent this dirtwad to schools and gave him free time to get his points up. Meanwhile, section chiefs and squad leaders who carried your unit got passed over for, wait for it…points.
I wrestled with this question frequently when I was at division.
A lot of the E7s and E8s at that level have already served in the company positions and have moved to division as a career progression move.
While yes, they could go do a kickass job in the company that's short, they've already done 18-24 months in that slot in a different company, and it doesn't really help their career to go back down.
I've seen it happen, though. The CSM moved people where they were needed all the time. I almost never saw a "fresh" SFC or MSG come into a division staff section without having already been at a brigade, battalion, or company.
I did PSG duty for 12 months as a SSG, two years DS duty as a SFC, then two more years PSG, mostly deployed before going to a division staff where I would get promoted.
Once there I met two of my "peers". One, a woman had already been on staff for three years, no PSG time. The other a male, had eight months of PSG time as a SSG. They both made SFC in under ten years. The Army was desperate.
I couldn't convince them or our SGM they needed to go to a line and do PSG duty.
Their arguments were sound. They pointed all the family and personal time I had sacrificed, as well as the frustrations of working for LTs and inexperienced captains.
Well you two probably aren't going to make MSG.
They didn't, and they were completely okay with it.
Both ended up spending the next 12 years in garrison type staff jobs, 9-4, no weekends, rarely any subordinates.
My monthly pay was higher, but if you measured it by the hour they won by a long shot.
> Senior NCOs that hide on staff without completing their KD should be QSP’d
bruh. So sorta devil's advocate:
My MOS has literally zero PSG slots in the entire Army. Nowhere, not Active, not NG, not Reserves. There is not a single PSG position in my career timeline.
Also, I, as enlisted scum, have never once in a decade and a half, ever served, worked at, or been assigned to an echelon below the BDE level.
Even though I fully agree with you, it isn't always fully feasible/available for enlisted scum like me.
With that being said, I have never-not seen NCOs like this and I still see this in my current joint assignment. It is very noticeable when having work interactions with them and for the most part, they have been a detriment to the unit and mission. Even though I do not have the experience I am bitching about others not having, I am at least competent in each component's doctrine and joint doctrine, which then allows [me to provide combat-enhancing fusion through synergy](https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZTl3czcwZzlpN29mYnNkdGdiNmQyOXI5eWducmZ2ZXc5N2Zkc3o5bSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/Dj0TjXxzM0SVbtyfrO/giphy.gif) as opposed to the latter.
So, I chose to go to a Division or higher element as a newly promoted E7 rather than start and finish my KD time. The reason is that I am 3 years away from hitting my 20 and plan on dropping my packet a year and a half in. Me taking a PLT to just tell everyone, sorry guys gotta start doing my retirement meetings seems like a dick move. There are plenty of newly minted 7s with time to make 8 or higher that need that KD time to remain competitive.
Not gonna lie, I purposely made moves to get to BDE staff 2 years before my retirement. I did 2 years PSG time followed by 1 year rear D CDR then deployed for a year in the BN 3 shop. While deployed family health issues made me think it was time to start thinking about retiring. Emailed, called and smoked a lot of Newports with some of my peoples, got arranged to move to the BDE 3 immediately after block leave. Half assed my board records and submitted.
Rode out 25 months up there until my retirement date. There were 3 exercises where I had to be gone for 2 or more weeks but mostly my day was office work, meetings, food court/shoppette, meetings, office work, watching the clock close from 1600 on, drive home then Jamesons to end the day. Glorious.
Robert Heinlein wrote about this in Starship Troopers - in universe the Replacement Depot always needed fresh NCO's to keep it running and had a nasty habit of transferring them to the desk when the starships came into port.
There are so many positions in the real world Army that a great SFC/1SG that the Joes love and makes the unit run gets snagged by Korea, Germany, Instructor, S-shop at another post, NCOA, Recruiting, a unit going to or coming back from a rotation etc.
While unfortunate, it is kind of true.
HQDA looks at the [\~200,000 E4 and below](https://www.statista.com/statistics/239383/total-military-personnel-of-the-us-army-by-grade/) as largely interchangeable. Most of them are first or second-term, and the organizational impact of effectively chewing up lower enlisted with sucky duty stations and long work days in stagnant positions isn't as substantial as forcing senior enlisted and field-grade officers into a slot that doesn't help them progress.
The Army needs well-rounded people on senior staffs. When you get the purely strategic or purely staff-weenie type leaders on your staff, they lose touch with reality. When you pull that grizzled E8 or spiritually-broken O4 up to a division after a few years at the battalion and company level, you have a higher chance of getting someone empathetic, and who will make better decisions based on experiences.
In the eyes of the Army, a Specialist is a Specialist, a Lieutenant is a Lieutenant. You can just recruit or train more to replace those you burn up in 4 years at Ft. Irwin or Ft. Polk or Ft. Riley.
It becomes a lot more important for the Army to work on retaining E7s and O3s/O4s because it's the experience they care about, not the body.
>it doesn't really help their career to go back down.
Something something about "needs of the (insert Service)".
Something something else "mission accomplishment."
But career weenies who only care about NCO/OER bullets ain't ready to hear that.
It's a combination of "how can this position help me" instead of working for the benefit of the army and the units/people below you as well as flooding these echelons so you have Majors and E-8s basically taking memo's from one person to another.
Additionally my gripe is delegation of authority, I needed a memo for a DTS voucher that was months overdue and crossed from 1 FY to another, the memo took damn near a month to go all the way up to a 2 or 3 Star just to come back down and say "yes this SM is authorized X amount for reimbursement/payment". Why in God's name couldn't that have just been pushed down to authorize my CO who knew and understood the situation. It really blows my mind how the military is expected to operate efficiently and effectively in any future conflicts if this is the kind of shenaniganery and red tape we can't cut in peace-time activities.
I find it interesting that everyone always pushes “do what is best for you, not the Army” “you need to take care of yourself because the Army isn’t going to care,” yet when it comes to people taking positions that will help them advance their career it changes to “why aren’t you thinking about what is best for the Army?”
Don’t blame the E-7 or E-8 for taking a staff position to advance their career. It isn’t their fault that the Army incentivizes that for career progression.
I'm not against career progression. The military's gonna get it's pound of flesh no matter what. My issue is the people who forsake everything and are only out for their own benefit and provide no substance or value added to the organization.
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I was somewhat envious of MP units awhile back who had three E-8’s in one company. An acting 1SG, an E-8 who was a previous 1SG, and a brand new E-8. The amount of knowledge firepower they brought was unparalleled.
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but To be fair, MP units *theoretically* are responsible for anything the line units bypass. So by mission set in LSCO operations they’d be in for a heck of a scrap if something important got through into the DIV rear area.
Had a couple 11A CPTs and MAJs serve as external evaluators once. Visiting one of the training areas they were asking questions about MTOE and Task Org.
They were blown away by the amount of vehicles, crew served and CROWs in just one platoon. Also that we had an Ops section integral to the company.
43 Crews in one MP Company. Gunnery is a fucking awful time (especially in the Guard)
The “more fire power” trope rings true but our METL is so diverse that the overall employment of that firepower is pretty meh. The infantry at least possess the skills and relatively simplified METL to really put theirs to use.
We can be anywhere in between supporting the forward elements to running straggler control near the DSA. It’s bonkers.
In theory there’s at least a company if not a battalion of MPs operating in the Division and Corps rear supported by a maneuver battalion task force. Part of the reason for MEBs. The execution… well I think they’re still working out the kinks. Regardless a combat MP company brings plenty of DAKKA.
Because MSG F.A. Tbody hasn't passed H/W since Obama was in office and MSG S.H. Itbyrd has that thing everyone knows about but doesn't say out loud until he retires next year.
Meanwhile PFC tubby gained a little weight after OSUT dealing with the stress of being new to the military and starting a family and gets the boot for being 2% over.
You’d have an aneurism in the guard.
It’s not as bad in line units, especially ones that actually do shit, but it isn’t unheard of for SGTs or SSGs to be acting PSGs, an E3 to be a TL, etc.
Shit I know of one company in my state that at one point had cadets as acting PLs for all their platoons.
99% of them don’t even have retirement orders. Meanwhile the SSG that should be in some CD position based on their career map or broadening assignment is working 2 levels higher for no extra pay and it still won’t count for 1SG time.
The Army is limited on E8 positions by Congress, we need those E8s to be 1SGs not the NCOIC of “share point migration” cause they are “close to retiring” in 18 months.
I'd imagine that's a smaller space on the Sergeant-Major's dartboard. Probably surrounded by "the company lawns look like shit", "some of your joes' hair is too long", and wanting everybody to be 100% up on whatever has replaced SSD1 by COB,
I’ll do 24 months of diamond time and have a year left until I retire. So I guess I’ll be on the backside of the argument soon enough.
Because I’ll be honest, after 24 months in this seat and less than a year away from hanging it up… you ain’t getting much out of me. I’ll still contribute but I’m not gonna hit home runs.
99% of retiring Soldiers also don’t get “retirement orders” until they are 6 months out… if they are lucky. So again, me be a 1SG yet again with no desire to compete for promotion or be competitive or utilize the time and resources to set myself and my family up for the next chapter.
One thing I have learned over the last 3 months- not a single person in the Army gives a fuck about what happens the day after I take off the uniform. So why would I be vested in working 18 hour days and solving organizational problems with nothing to gain? To do all that and actually be set up for failure?
To all of us that have 19 years and 6 deployments- prioritize yourself. The Army will figure it out. They literally made a song about it “ The Army Goes Rolling Along”
Never seen a SSG be a 1SG outside of like a block leave rear d period. But with the way recruiting and retention are going I guess some units are hurting. The bigger question is what is the Army doing so wrong that Senior NCOs and Field Grades are dropping retirement packets in droves? So many packets dropped in such a short time, it literally broke Ft Liberty’s ability to process them in a timely manner.
I'm on my third year as a 1sg. Im still a sfc. My oml actually got worse....i don't really know why i do it anymore. Ill probably drop my retirement packet soon since the army thinks I'm not qualified to be a real E8 but Is willing to keep using me like a cheap hooker. The system is broken.
You know the answer to this question. The NCOs and Os fit to lead formations do that. The ones that are terrible are stashed away at echelons above reality so the damage they cause is minimal. The MAJ who is will never sniff LTC, staff… the LTC who will never sniff COL, staff… same for senior enlisted.
Staff is a retirement/ineffective soldier farm.
Many of the MSGs in my shop have already completed company level leadership time. There is no benefit to filling a third 1SG position, especially in a technical MOS.
Even Dick Winters was stuck on staff eventually.
Almost like our evaluation model is broken and these people shouldn’t have been promoted?
Time to hurt some feelings. The first year you are in a position you probably won’t excel at it. Learning takes time and expertise doesn’t develop over night. Accomplishing your mission and goals is the minimum not a sign of excellence. Congratulations you met the standard and should get an average evaluation for it.
I would say more the up or out plus moving jobs every 18-36 months is more broken. Learn a job and then get sent somewhere new about the time you're comfortable and capable
Some people think they know how insanely stupid G level staff is… some of us are in the trenches fighting through it.
It’s a lot worse than y’all think
Well MTOE and experience. But a lot of them are flagged with UCMJ, under investigation, retiring on active duty and at appointments at critical times, or were fired and removed from a unit already.
Well, when you’re conducting Joint Ops with multiple services, you need that 3 star joint commander and his staff. That HQs deconflicts the services and ensures the combatant commander’s intent is enforced so each service…ahhh fuck it you’re right. It’s all a bunch of shit echelons above division.
Yeah. I see both sides here, but my overall opinion is until it's time to kill people, division and corps staffs are just better off not existing as far as I'm concerned.
Like maybe we should stick them in a continuous warfighter or something to actually train them to staff effectively, rather than them pumping out a 6 word Annex H when I *really really* need that G-level resourcing to support my units.
A continuous state of warfighters is an excellent idea if you want your Army's senior leadership to exit in mass. Just one warfighter cycle is such a massive endeavor I couldn't even imagine doing multiple back to back.
As someone currently working at a COCOM, I'd honestly say it's the opposite. COCOM provides the "here's what we want done" and it's up to the service to do it. As a COCOM I'm not really interested in directing the actions of 3 army divisions, 8 CTFs, 12 assorted fighter/tanker/etc squadrons, an arg/meu, and whatever it is that the space guys do. Leave that to the folks who actually know that stuff.
>you need that 3 star joint commander and his staff.
Just got back from Europe and couldn't for the life of me figure out what role or purpose V Corps fulfilled in Poland that couldn't be answered/controlled by USAREUR-AF, EUCOM, ARC....or SPARK (whichever one it is that makes a "bzzt" sound" or the TF Divs already in the AO.
I also hate that we're calling them "combatant commanders"....who's doing any fighting besides the drunk lower enlisted and locals. Additionally "CC" alludes to a certain power or authority and sometimes units do things on foreign bases that they have no power to do so.....but because we call them combatant commanders they think they own the "battlespace" that is a friendly NATO country.
Theoretically they're there to get training experience as a higher level command in "Theater". Usually devolves into them just making shit memos to make troops lives worse the whole time
It’s been over 40 years since a Army Corp has had a large role in combat. It’ll take time for this to wrangle out, I mean only if that Corp staff/command gets their face smacked for not doing their role.
Edit-
Actually I am wrong. If you look at the invasion that would be the last time. Probably. Maybe.
21 years. ARCENT/3rd Army (LTG David McKiernan, corps level commander) was the Coalition Land Forces Component Command directing V Corps and 1 MEF.
I caveat this with having no idea what the command was for OND and whatever Syria was/is.
Counterpoint: The success of the Army's support to Ukraine has been earned entirely on the work, creativity, and ingenuity of people in units most have never heard of. Corps, theater, and MACOM staff have been executing wartime missions and winning while trigger pullers are on the sidelines.
Service component commands are the most useless bureaucratic shit organization ive ever seen. ARCENT, ARSOUTH, etc. What the fuck is the point when the combatant command directs the actual operation their support staff just exist to add bullshit or staff officer positions.
As a former division staffer, we know, generally.
At the division and above level, there is a certain expectation that the subordinate units will have difficulties with readiness just due to the nature of aging vehicle and system fleets. When we go to war, the plan is already there for a certain percentage of personnel and equipment not being in the fight due to readiness.
As for division greed, yeah, it's there for sure. I watched our entire division HQ outfit themselves with the latest laptops and docking stations while the maneuver brigade HQs struggled along with 5-year-old computers that barely functioned. I argued from within the G6 shop to reallocate some computers lower and was told by the G3 basically "they'll figure it out."
One of the big reasons senior HQs get a lot of priority is that Big Army really looks at division and corps HQs for answers. FORSCOM couldn't care less about a tank brigade, but as soon as an entire division starts having issues with readiness, FORSCOM starts to care. That scares CGs and DCGs into equipping their headquarters with all of the tools they think will allow their staff to better manage readiness and planning. Whether or not all that emphasis actually helps improve planning, eehhhh. I saw a marginal increase in my own HQ.
One other consideration is that computers and automations equipment are the staff's primary weapons system. Think how much worse the last-minute taskings from division would be if they only had one working computer, or didn't have a mouse. I get it, the CG probably doesn't need a $25,000 video teleconference suite for a weekly phone call with corps, but the G3 or G4 planners probably actually do need a few thousand dollars worth of computers and monitors to actually run the division.
I do really understand your plight, though. I spent years at the company level, between PL, XO, and command, and at the battalion level. It was always frustrating watching echelons above reality getting fat and happy while I couldn't even get COTS shortages funded for critical systems.
You think the suite is $25,000? That's cute. I just did the acquisition for our new VTC and it was... Well let's just say more than 10 times that amount.
Depends on the extensiveness of the suite, I guess.
We had BVTCs for the tactical level and they were \~$20k. Our division conference room standalone VTCs were \~$25k.
The big system in the COIC was like $350k+...
Questions on why: Why are we having issues with uploading orders. Why is my admin making me do my DTS to get pushed back 3 times to finally get accepted after “pushback” remarks were inputted?
Why are we in charge of inputting our own medical now? Why are we in charge making sure command awards are inputted on my ERB/ ARB?
If staff is so busy to where we are independent, what’s that point of appointing soldiers to assist other soldiers if they aren’t assisting.
I've never known an S1 or finance shop that runs effectively.
I don't know if that's a product of the systems they're forced to use, the Soldiers they get, or the quality of leadership, but man, I don't understand how it's so hard to do basic HR actions for people.
It's the systems they are forced to use by the Army. We keep changing on them. They have something like 12 different systems they have to use for HR actions, and none of those systems talk to the others. So they are constantly having to swivel chair actions. It's a mess.
Supply rooms are the same. At least 4 different systems that don't talk to each other forcing individuals to input data over and over again to get things to work.
The best S1s I've ever seen ran the shop like they were just constantly fighting for each HR action. The mediocre ones just kind of gave up.
I received your request for support and fielded it through our analysis process. I regret to inform you that your request is denied due to insufficient evidence. Please provide citations and sources to the information and statements that you mentioned. Additionally, we request concurrence and acknowledgement from your chain of command through your first O-6 in your chain of command before you resubmit your rebuttal.
Thank you for your input and understanding.
With Kind Regards,
Senior Staffer
Yep yep , we lost or Top to retirement. Had a lil weasel for CO that was on his way out due to being un promotable . 1st Sgt duties was split between 2 , E-7 that couldn't stand each other . Like if one Troop got put on extra detail by the 1st one , the other would release that Troop at lunch an tell him to go Fuck Off in town or such . Myself an 2 other NCO's finally went to Headquarters to ask for a 1st Sgt . We had made an appointment to speak with The Colonel. When we got there we counted no less than 9 - E8 Master Sgt's playing on typewriters or hanging around coffee pot . Man did we get berated by The CSM , told us there was no need to speak to the Colonel . Do you seriously believe we don't know what's going on . On top of that the 3 of you are AWOL from your Post in my book , a you have 2-1/2 hrs to report back to your assigned duty place , Do I need to call The MP's an provide you with a escort . We did finally get a new CO & Top about 4 months later . But by that time moral was so bad , I had never seen a Company so dysfunctional in The Army .
I've spend some time with post-soviet NATO armies. They're great guys, but one thing I've learned is that we definietly could be doing much much worse.
Imagine giving all Majors without prior service SELCON to retire.
1. Addresses the OER politicking game in a big way — less existential stress for Officers and their Families, which boost’s retention and keeps the force healthy.
2. Increases the chances of those who truly deserve MQs to get them. Reduces “chasing the dragon” culture we currently have now.
3. Allows key billets across the Army to be filled without fear of vacancies.
4. Increases recruitment “Join as an O — stay the course, if you retire (basically guaranteed), here is a 40k pension tied to inflation, plus some disability, for life”
Having worked at Brigade and Division echelons as well, I concur.
In reality, it's really just a HUMAN problem. The echelon is irrelevant. The Army isn't an organization that talent manages very well, it's an organization that has a constant throughput of personnel coming and going. They have to prioritize getting inexperienced Soldiers experience in various positions, which means that most positions throughout most organizations across echelons, are filled by people who have NEVER done the job before and are trying to learn as they go.
Which is hilarious because when you have a spot like a division staff where you can just boot your underperformers down levels you get efficient/effective sections.
It really made me hate being at lower levels more because you see just how much of the bullshit you deal with is because of ego driven “leaders”
Your CSM didn't want you to send shitbirds, because it makes your unit look like they are incompetent at developing Soldiers, and only create shitbirds. That's embarrassing. Obviously that's not the case, but representation matters for details like Command Team drivers and other higher visibility positions.
Yeah, nothing really to disagree with here. At those levels you have a lot of guys that are looking up and out, they are trying to mesh their planning and staffing with the larger trends at corps and combatant command. But they don't do it rationally, by just calling those people and asking what the deal is, they treat the whole thing like the ebbing winds of fate, and they have to read and interpret every dragon and opord and miscellaneous comment from a 4 star at a tech demo as if they were miss cleo channeling the beyond.
Then you have the smaller population that is looking down, theoretically they are there enabling war fighters and performing conditions checks but in reality they are micro managing to do anything they can to prevent any evidence of failure from coming to the attention of the people who are busy looking up and out. That's because if the people who are looking up and out have to stop what they're doing to pay attention to a problem at a lower echelon they're going to be big babies about it because people at that echelon assumes that anything that comes across their desk is "a problem only they can solve ^tm " so they assume it's a crisis or they wouldn't have been bothered. In reality it's almost always a result of some earlier decision that was made at the same echelon that wasn't properly resourced or thought out, and it's true that they're the only ones who can solve it, but only because they have sole approval authority, not because they're so unceasingly clever that no one else could solve it.
Then you have the smallest population, the people at the highest levels who face inward. These are the staffers, NCOs, and soldiers who for whatever are part of the agreed upon population that is responsible for every internal tasker, planning effort, and shit responsibility. Seriously, the Corps deputy or whatever will come up with some "good idea" and then the same like 30 people who always get roped into these things are rounded up again and put to work. These are individuals from a handful of different sections who see each other more than the supervisors of their actual respective sections. Seriously, it's utterly bizarre, and if you don't know they exist you'll never even know they were there. But if you somehow end up tasked with something and have to interact with them you'll find some iron major or E8 who unofficially runs the whole thing, is like the most charismatic person you've ever met, and you can just see the life leaving their eyes with every second in the job. And the more you work with them the more you'll be amazed that they're here wasting their talents and not killing it as a FDC NCOIC or maneuver company 1sg or something.
Someone tell me I'm wrong.
If you want someone to tell you that you're wrong then you are going to be waiting a long time. I can tell you've worked a staff before or currently because you absolutely nailed the dynamic, vibe, personalities and culture. Absolutely love your line about the winds of fate and 4stars. It's so true. I will admit though that sometimes there isn't anyone you can call about it because every is just as lost as you are and you can't just call the 4 *.
Counterpoint: any echelon or organization seems pointless when it’s not doing its job. But if there is no division, you’ll see problems crop up that you didn’t realize division was handling.
I have been in a brigade that had no division above it (we reported directly to corps), and it was a pain, because corps is like division but worse (i.e. more bureaucratic). So for example, I had to call the corps ammo manager to approve the tracer rounds you use for AT-4 training. Not a good use of his time or mine.
The issue is that in peacetime there is a bunch of pointless stuff that division spearheads. But I was on division staff in Afghanistan, and while we should have been a smaller staff, we were performing legitimately essential tasks the brigades could not do.
I currently work at a COCOM.
Can confirm that 80% of the mil bodies are subhumans with field grade ranks that do nothing but sign stuff that the civilians make.
Unpopular opinion:
The companies the majority of the time don’t know what they want, blow their resourcing on cool-guy shit they’ll never need or lose in a month thus building a culture of mistrust and disdain from top down because commanders don’t want to provide intent and rely too heavily on the staff to run the boat.
Perfect example.
Had a BN complain about not having SAT capabilities, looked at their MTOE and they’re not a unit that requires it. Found a MTOE LIN that actually has systems that run the capability, talked to the Commander and turns out they just didn’t want to use “THOSE” radios because they’re too hard to learn.
They weren’t PSC-5s. They were 152V4s. The unit was using Motorolas as a primary internal comms and refused to change their SOP to incorporate 148V4s and 152s.
Uhhhhhh you're not gonna love the vibe but
Fuck the 148, all my homies hate the 148. Rest in piss, worst radio ever fielded.
152's are dope though, command team officially in the wrong there.
It's because the PRC-148 was the only exam in AIT that kept me from the commandant's list or whatever; getting freqs mixed up on the repeater mode. I shall never recover, even though it's been over 10 years at this point lol.
It's like my grudge against ADA; sort of real, sort of a meme, 100% unreasonable
There are a lot of combat arms field grades that higher echelons have to accommodate. What's the ratio of them to billets at the battalion/squadron or brigade/regiment level? Got to be 10:1 or worse for O6s, and not a lot better for O4s and O5s.
But under the current construct where the Army wants officers to have \~15 years of chances to screw up as a field grade to see who's careful/lucky enough to be a general, and where there's always the concept that the Army might have to increase combat brigade count by 5x-10x in a major conventional war, those people need jobs.
Yea… most companies & BNs have no idea what reality is when it comes to funding. I’ll die on this hill.
Either timing, actual appropriations law, units wasting money on items they don’t need, or your lower level CMD not supporting is the reason 99% of the time for whatever resources you’re pleading for not getting funded.
Edit: to add, a huge portion of the DIV & up level budgets are spent on support that Soldiers don’t even know has to be paid for. There are contracts, CIV Pay requirements, etc. that Soldiers at the CO level just think “happen.” Yes, staffs work to support. However, you’re only seeing a small fraction of the outputs & none of the inputs or competing requirements when you’re at the tactical level.
I agree to a certain extent as someone who works in Division HQ.
At the end of the day we all get our orders from higher and we need that direction in order to understand the mission. However there is no doubt that at company level you are so fucking busy doing what 4 different levels above you want that when they ask you to do some petty bullshit in the middle of all that it looks useless as fuck.
Yeah I’m in a Division HQ, my understanding is the 40 or so Field Grade Officers never work. They are not in a command position and many never have been. But since they’re so high ranking, there usually no one ever telling them what to do or ever on them about anything. Some serve a staff purpose. Most serve in a “advisory role” to the CG. Oh yeah they are getting the funding they want first.
Only a few Officer MOSs will promote to field grade without a command. AG, SC, Cyber, Chem, MEDO, Chaplain. All the others need Company Command to make MAJ.
Even for chem you're told you need command. Da Pam 600-3 says BDE Chemo can be the KD time to make you KD complete but branch emphasizes that you won't be competitive for promotion without some type of command (could be chem, TRADOC, USAREC, HHC, etc.).
this is so wrong I am not even sure why I am responding. All those guys are probably pre-kd types who are rowing to get a chance to go to a brigade. all of your LTC are in KD type jobs where it does matter what happens. I just have no idea how you can say something so wrong so confidently.
Yeah, when I was still active about 6 years ago, I saw this. I was an e5 that was made psg because because higher pulled 3 of our ssgs to be drivers for some generals against their will. Such massive bullshit.
Heres what happened with that:
I had less than a year left and really didn't care so at the second daily psg and 1sg meeting, I told the 1sg I'd like to speak candidly, and then shot myself in the face. I essentially said, I do not get paid enough to do the job of an e7, as the army is the only place in America where you can be forced to do a job without a pay raise. I said I would do whatever I needed to do for my soldiers, but I would not be staying late every day to shoot the shit in these meetings that could be an email, and often were held at around 1900. I was surprised because he was pissed but ultimately let me do what I said. On my last day, at closeout formation, he dismissed the company without so much as a word of it being a (i think very competent and well liked) NCOs last day. Piece of shit had whole ceremonies for e3s getting out, but not the e5 who was made a psg over a handful of other sergeants. About 6 months after I got out, that 1sg got a DUI at the fucking gate. Sucks to absolutely suck.
I had about 5 months left, 2 of which were going to be spent in a transition program, so I had no fucks to give unless it was for my soldiers.
Absolutely true in garrison but I'm in the middle of a division Warfighter exercise attached to division staff and I can see that everyone here will play a crucial role in a large scale combat operation.
This sounds like a take from someone who doesn't understand that the tactical level isn't the center of the universe.
I get it. The CO level is where the rubber hits the road/the boots hit the ground, and if you can't do that correctly, a lot of things fall apart. You're right that tactical units need to be enabled and set up for success. However...
You need to balance that with the understanding that strategic-level decisions are what drive *everything*. Your tactical unit is doing what it's doing because of a multi-year planning effort. That plan is a mammoth undertaking, requiring experts in every single military discipline. It doesn't just magically appear. You genuinely need a shot-ton of field grades to produce something like that and have it make sense/be executable. That plan needs to be able to survive multiple political ~~tantrums~~ shifts, budget reallocations, and all manner of other insane "what if" possibilities.
All of this gets lost at the tactical level because of how simple everything is down there. It seems like it should be the easiest thing to ensure that your unit gets to execute training regularly, get equipped with modern gear on time, and maintain its existing stocks. The problem is that *every* unit is asking for that same wishlist, and we don't have the money/personnel to say yes to everyone. So we have to make decisions about who gets what they want, and who has to deal with less than they asked for. The reasons for those decisions are *strategic*, not tactical, and that is why someone looking at all of this from a tactical standpoint will always be angry, and always be wrong. Or, at best, why their anger will always be misplaced.
I also guarantee this dude never interacted with a division primary staff officer...ever. He wouldn't because they wouldn't talk to him about his resource shit. He is seeing this through his BN and BDE XOs and they are probably the ones telling them to kick rocks. Company commanders would buy a bunch of abullshit if we let them instead of spending it on maintenance and needed supplies. It's just bitching to bitch.
Thank you.
Having been a Corps level staffer, it was mind numbing to go back to the BN level. The problems are so... Easy to solve.
I actually pity my DIV staff now when I work with them. I don't bring my problems to their desk anymore because I know what they are dealing with is way worse than my little land, ammo or calendar issues.
I'm happy to figure out how to keep my DTMS slides green now, compared to when I was asked to figure out an O-plan.
I used to work in a unit in Korea that was in charge of all the USFK fires units. I was the GC holder and every month I had to spend $3500 no matter what because the unit didn’t want to lose the funding. Keep in mind, this unit was a full bird, 2 LTC, a bunch of majors, some captains and a bunch of SSGs. The amount of money that’s wasted in units like these it’s stupid.
Brigade and higher will become very relevant in a full-scale war with a near-peer adversary, but in our most recent conflicts, the focus has definitely been on smaller units. That isn't to say higher echelons don't still do things; but when their main duty has been to oversee smaller, more-or-less independently operating units, they tend to not really pay as much attention to the big picture as they do to micromanaging those units, or worse, not really getting much of any substance done at all.
I appreciate the sentiment but without some detail it's hard to really relate. I never had an issue getting money for my bde from the division in my 13 months as a XO. if its not going to maintenance and training, what were some of the things you were trying to get? did you talk with the division or is this being filtered through XOs?
Div doesn't exist to support companies, it's the other way around.
Instead of saying, "Sure does suck down here in the companies" why not try to move up to Div instead?
Yeah but who else is gonna patrol around cooper field bitching that people aren’t running fast enough or walkers are too close together.
But for real is so frustrating trying to keep up with the optempo with half broken stuff and new/half staffed sections and platoons. Something’s gonna break real soon if things don’t change. But I’m sure those MQs on OERs won’t happen otherwise.
You right. Speaking of resources. Why is each staff section staffed with several MSGs and field grades? Meanwhile there is a company with a SSG or SFC as the “acting 1SG”.
Because that MSG is too “mission critical” and cannot be diverted to the line company being ran by a SSG and 2LT.
Even better they are working “special projects” and can’t be bothered to show up for work at all.
That is code for pushing paper until retirement/court martial
Which is all fun and games until the CSM calls the NCOIC asking for said MSG because “they work in your shop” and the NCOIC is like uhh not sure where they are.
I was a young S3 NCO who used to get tasked out by the shop NCOIC to go find these errant lifers. Additional duty: The ability to transform into Tommy Lee Jones from The Fugitive and track down a SFC or MSG who nobody has seen in days, lol.
As a lifer myself, this is one of my pet peeves. Like god damn, you are getting paid to work, please work. I understand if you are so broken you can’t walk or something but the folks that just fuck off because they can get away with it bother me so much.
I'm assuming that there are plenty of jobs that can be done from behind a desk. But are these desk MSGs capable of the thought needed to do the job? I mean if they are MIA more than 50% or the time and the jobs getting done.... Maybe a brave field grade has to eval them into a new job. Civilian world I digitized all the department reports. Made it that 2 office peoples work could be done by 1. Then I was the junior so I got reassigned out the door. Need to find 20, 000 soldiers? Just cut staff jobs 20%
Or who they are
Those Netflix specials aren't going to watch themselves.
Because that MSG is a pusillanimous pantywaist who owes their rank to the promotion-as-a-retention-tool of the early GWOT. They’re intellectually and morally incapable of shouldering the duty of being a good First Sergeant, they know it, and so hide in the fetid windowless depths of their S-Shops, flailing the cloak of mission criticality anytime the specter of responsibility darkens their doorway.
This was and always has been an army problem, even before the war. Got a broke dick that can’t deploy? Send him to school or the S3. Got an NCO that can’t lead troops or perform their skill set? Send him to school or S3. JRTC or NTC? Send him to school or S3. NCO slept with his soldiers/soldier’s wife? Send him to school or S3. New promotion list comes out, and SSG Broke Dick/Fuck Nuts has the promotion points to make E7. Everyone is like, what the fuck? Well, you sent this dirtwad to schools and gave him free time to get his points up. Meanwhile, section chiefs and squad leaders who carried your unit got passed over for, wait for it…points.
I wrestled with this question frequently when I was at division. A lot of the E7s and E8s at that level have already served in the company positions and have moved to division as a career progression move. While yes, they could go do a kickass job in the company that's short, they've already done 18-24 months in that slot in a different company, and it doesn't really help their career to go back down. I've seen it happen, though. The CSM moved people where they were needed all the time. I almost never saw a "fresh" SFC or MSG come into a division staff section without having already been at a brigade, battalion, or company.
I did PSG duty for 12 months as a SSG, two years DS duty as a SFC, then two more years PSG, mostly deployed before going to a division staff where I would get promoted. Once there I met two of my "peers". One, a woman had already been on staff for three years, no PSG time. The other a male, had eight months of PSG time as a SSG. They both made SFC in under ten years. The Army was desperate. I couldn't convince them or our SGM they needed to go to a line and do PSG duty. Their arguments were sound. They pointed all the family and personal time I had sacrificed, as well as the frustrations of working for LTs and inexperienced captains. Well you two probably aren't going to make MSG. They didn't, and they were completely okay with it. Both ended up spending the next 12 years in garrison type staff jobs, 9-4, no weekends, rarely any subordinates. My monthly pay was higher, but if you measured it by the hour they won by a long shot.
Senior NCOs that hide on staff without completing their KD should be QSP’d. Just fucks everyone over
> Senior NCOs that hide on staff without completing their KD should be QSP’d bruh. So sorta devil's advocate: My MOS has literally zero PSG slots in the entire Army. Nowhere, not Active, not NG, not Reserves. There is not a single PSG position in my career timeline. Also, I, as enlisted scum, have never once in a decade and a half, ever served, worked at, or been assigned to an echelon below the BDE level. Even though I fully agree with you, it isn't always fully feasible/available for enlisted scum like me. With that being said, I have never-not seen NCOs like this and I still see this in my current joint assignment. It is very noticeable when having work interactions with them and for the most part, they have been a detriment to the unit and mission. Even though I do not have the experience I am bitching about others not having, I am at least competent in each component's doctrine and joint doctrine, which then allows [me to provide combat-enhancing fusion through synergy](https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZTl3czcwZzlpN29mYnNkdGdiNmQyOXI5eWducmZ2ZXc5N2Zkc3o5bSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/Dj0TjXxzM0SVbtyfrO/giphy.gif) as opposed to the latter.
Yep.
So, I chose to go to a Division or higher element as a newly promoted E7 rather than start and finish my KD time. The reason is that I am 3 years away from hitting my 20 and plan on dropping my packet a year and a half in. Me taking a PLT to just tell everyone, sorry guys gotta start doing my retirement meetings seems like a dick move. There are plenty of newly minted 7s with time to make 8 or higher that need that KD time to remain competitive.
Not gonna lie, I purposely made moves to get to BDE staff 2 years before my retirement. I did 2 years PSG time followed by 1 year rear D CDR then deployed for a year in the BN 3 shop. While deployed family health issues made me think it was time to start thinking about retiring. Emailed, called and smoked a lot of Newports with some of my peoples, got arranged to move to the BDE 3 immediately after block leave. Half assed my board records and submitted. Rode out 25 months up there until my retirement date. There were 3 exercises where I had to be gone for 2 or more weeks but mostly my day was office work, meetings, food court/shoppette, meetings, office work, watching the clock close from 1600 on, drive home then Jamesons to end the day. Glorious.
Robert Heinlein wrote about this in Starship Troopers - in universe the Replacement Depot always needed fresh NCO's to keep it running and had a nasty habit of transferring them to the desk when the starships came into port. There are so many positions in the real world Army that a great SFC/1SG that the Joes love and makes the unit run gets snagged by Korea, Germany, Instructor, S-shop at another post, NCOA, Recruiting, a unit going to or coming back from a rotation etc.
Instructor gig was a good break after 9 years on the line
That's funny, needs of the service always trumps career progression for lower enlisted.
While unfortunate, it is kind of true. HQDA looks at the [\~200,000 E4 and below](https://www.statista.com/statistics/239383/total-military-personnel-of-the-us-army-by-grade/) as largely interchangeable. Most of them are first or second-term, and the organizational impact of effectively chewing up lower enlisted with sucky duty stations and long work days in stagnant positions isn't as substantial as forcing senior enlisted and field-grade officers into a slot that doesn't help them progress. The Army needs well-rounded people on senior staffs. When you get the purely strategic or purely staff-weenie type leaders on your staff, they lose touch with reality. When you pull that grizzled E8 or spiritually-broken O4 up to a division after a few years at the battalion and company level, you have a higher chance of getting someone empathetic, and who will make better decisions based on experiences. In the eyes of the Army, a Specialist is a Specialist, a Lieutenant is a Lieutenant. You can just recruit or train more to replace those you burn up in 4 years at Ft. Irwin or Ft. Polk or Ft. Riley. It becomes a lot more important for the Army to work on retaining E7s and O3s/O4s because it's the experience they care about, not the body.
>it doesn't really help their career to go back down. Something something about "needs of the (insert Service)". Something something else "mission accomplishment." But career weenies who only care about NCO/OER bullets ain't ready to hear that.
The problem isn't that people are serving in those positions, it's that there are far too many of those positions.
It's a combination of "how can this position help me" instead of working for the benefit of the army and the units/people below you as well as flooding these echelons so you have Majors and E-8s basically taking memo's from one person to another. Additionally my gripe is delegation of authority, I needed a memo for a DTS voucher that was months overdue and crossed from 1 FY to another, the memo took damn near a month to go all the way up to a 2 or 3 Star just to come back down and say "yes this SM is authorized X amount for reimbursement/payment". Why in God's name couldn't that have just been pushed down to authorize my CO who knew and understood the situation. It really blows my mind how the military is expected to operate efficiently and effectively in any future conflicts if this is the kind of shenaniganery and red tape we can't cut in peace-time activities.
I find it interesting that everyone always pushes “do what is best for you, not the Army” “you need to take care of yourself because the Army isn’t going to care,” yet when it comes to people taking positions that will help them advance their career it changes to “why aren’t you thinking about what is best for the Army?” Don’t blame the E-7 or E-8 for taking a staff position to advance their career. It isn’t their fault that the Army incentivizes that for career progression.
I'm not against career progression. The military's gonna get it's pound of flesh no matter what. My issue is the people who forsake everything and are only out for their own benefit and provide no substance or value added to the organization.
coordinated clumsy intelligent future dull thought alive file spectacular impolite *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I was somewhat envious of MP units awhile back who had three E-8’s in one company. An acting 1SG, an E-8 who was a previous 1SG, and a brand new E-8. The amount of knowledge firepower they brought was unparalleled.
The amount of organic firepower that an MP unit brings is unparalleled. If you don’t believe me, just go ask the infantry guys.
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but To be fair, MP units *theoretically* are responsible for anything the line units bypass. So by mission set in LSCO operations they’d be in for a heck of a scrap if something important got through into the DIV rear area.
Had a couple 11A CPTs and MAJs serve as external evaluators once. Visiting one of the training areas they were asking questions about MTOE and Task Org. They were blown away by the amount of vehicles, crew served and CROWs in just one platoon. Also that we had an Ops section integral to the company. 43 Crews in one MP Company. Gunnery is a fucking awful time (especially in the Guard) The “more fire power” trope rings true but our METL is so diverse that the overall employment of that firepower is pretty meh. The infantry at least possess the skills and relatively simplified METL to really put theirs to use. We can be anywhere in between supporting the forward elements to running straggler control near the DSA. It’s bonkers.
In theory there’s at least a company if not a battalion of MPs operating in the Division and Corps rear supported by a maneuver battalion task force. Part of the reason for MEBs. The execution… well I think they’re still working out the kinks. Regardless a combat MP company brings plenty of DAKKA.
Because MSG F.A. Tbody hasn't passed H/W since Obama was in office and MSG S.H. Itbyrd has that thing everyone knows about but doesn't say out loud until he retires next year.
Meanwhile PFC tubby gained a little weight after OSUT dealing with the stress of being new to the military and starting a family and gets the boot for being 2% over.
You’d have an aneurism in the guard. It’s not as bad in line units, especially ones that actually do shit, but it isn’t unheard of for SGTs or SSGs to be acting PSGs, an E3 to be a TL, etc. Shit I know of one company in my state that at one point had cadets as acting PLs for all their platoons.
Because that MSG has likely already been a 1SG, is retiring, and has nothing to gain from being a 1SG again while in the retirement process.
99% of them don’t even have retirement orders. Meanwhile the SSG that should be in some CD position based on their career map or broadening assignment is working 2 levels higher for no extra pay and it still won’t count for 1SG time. The Army is limited on E8 positions by Congress, we need those E8s to be 1SGs not the NCOIC of “share point migration” cause they are “close to retiring” in 18 months.
Imagine a battalion command sausage major understanding manning and the right way to request replacements.
Too busy making bad drug deals with other CSMs to help the soldiers in their 1SGs hot tub.
I'd imagine that's a smaller space on the Sergeant-Major's dartboard. Probably surrounded by "the company lawns look like shit", "some of your joes' hair is too long", and wanting everybody to be 100% up on whatever has replaced SSD1 by COB,
I’ll do 24 months of diamond time and have a year left until I retire. So I guess I’ll be on the backside of the argument soon enough. Because I’ll be honest, after 24 months in this seat and less than a year away from hanging it up… you ain’t getting much out of me. I’ll still contribute but I’m not gonna hit home runs.
99% of retiring Soldiers also don’t get “retirement orders” until they are 6 months out… if they are lucky. So again, me be a 1SG yet again with no desire to compete for promotion or be competitive or utilize the time and resources to set myself and my family up for the next chapter. One thing I have learned over the last 3 months- not a single person in the Army gives a fuck about what happens the day after I take off the uniform. So why would I be vested in working 18 hour days and solving organizational problems with nothing to gain? To do all that and actually be set up for failure? To all of us that have 19 years and 6 deployments- prioritize yourself. The Army will figure it out. They literally made a song about it “ The Army Goes Rolling Along” Never seen a SSG be a 1SG outside of like a block leave rear d period. But with the way recruiting and retention are going I guess some units are hurting. The bigger question is what is the Army doing so wrong that Senior NCOs and Field Grades are dropping retirement packets in droves? So many packets dropped in such a short time, it literally broke Ft Liberty’s ability to process them in a timely manner.
Why would you do 1SG time again? It’s not worth it. I’d never do command twice. More work for the same pay.
I'm on my third year as a 1sg. Im still a sfc. My oml actually got worse....i don't really know why i do it anymore. Ill probably drop my retirement packet soon since the army thinks I'm not qualified to be a real E8 but Is willing to keep using me like a cheap hooker. The system is broken.
You know the answer to this question. The NCOs and Os fit to lead formations do that. The ones that are terrible are stashed away at echelons above reality so the damage they cause is minimal. The MAJ who is will never sniff LTC, staff… the LTC who will never sniff COL, staff… same for senior enlisted. Staff is a retirement/ineffective soldier farm.
Many of the MSGs in my shop have already completed company level leadership time. There is no benefit to filling a third 1SG position, especially in a technical MOS. Even Dick Winters was stuck on staff eventually.
Almost like our evaluation model is broken and these people shouldn’t have been promoted? Time to hurt some feelings. The first year you are in a position you probably won’t excel at it. Learning takes time and expertise doesn’t develop over night. Accomplishing your mission and goals is the minimum not a sign of excellence. Congratulations you met the standard and should get an average evaluation for it.
I would say more the up or out plus moving jobs every 18-36 months is more broken. Learn a job and then get sent somewhere new about the time you're comfortable and capable
If you’re being hidden away because you’re incompetent you should get the boot. If you’re that mediocre of an NCO you shouldn’t be in that position
I don’t disagree with you but it’s a lot easier said than done. Can easily drag feet for two years and retire anyway
> echelons above reality Perfect
Some people think they know how insanely stupid G level staff is… some of us are in the trenches fighting through it. It’s a lot worse than y’all think
You should write a book, or at least a shitpost
Talent Management is hardly applied at DIV and below echelons.
This right here made me glad to retire as a SSG...
Well MTOE and experience. But a lot of them are flagged with UCMJ, under investigation, retiring on active duty and at appointments at critical times, or were fired and removed from a unit already.
Well, when you’re conducting Joint Ops with multiple services, you need that 3 star joint commander and his staff. That HQs deconflicts the services and ensures the combatant commander’s intent is enforced so each service…ahhh fuck it you’re right. It’s all a bunch of shit echelons above division.
Yeah. I see both sides here, but my overall opinion is until it's time to kill people, division and corps staffs are just better off not existing as far as I'm concerned. Like maybe we should stick them in a continuous warfighter or something to actually train them to staff effectively, rather than them pumping out a 6 word Annex H when I *really really* need that G-level resourcing to support my units.
A continuous state of warfighters is an excellent idea if you want your Army's senior leadership to exit in mass. Just one warfighter cycle is such a massive endeavor I couldn't even imagine doing multiple back to back.
Yeah same, my past warfighter came really close to breaking my spirit. But consider, well written opords!
I’m of the opinion that Corps and combatant commands can do their jobs with a 50% reduction of current manning.
Service component commands are entirely useless. all you need is the combatant command.
As someone currently working at a COCOM, I'd honestly say it's the opposite. COCOM provides the "here's what we want done" and it's up to the service to do it. As a COCOM I'm not really interested in directing the actions of 3 army divisions, 8 CTFs, 12 assorted fighter/tanker/etc squadrons, an arg/meu, and whatever it is that the space guys do. Leave that to the folks who actually know that stuff.
>you need that 3 star joint commander and his staff. Just got back from Europe and couldn't for the life of me figure out what role or purpose V Corps fulfilled in Poland that couldn't be answered/controlled by USAREUR-AF, EUCOM, ARC....or SPARK (whichever one it is that makes a "bzzt" sound" or the TF Divs already in the AO. I also hate that we're calling them "combatant commanders"....who's doing any fighting besides the drunk lower enlisted and locals. Additionally "CC" alludes to a certain power or authority and sometimes units do things on foreign bases that they have no power to do so.....but because we call them combatant commanders they think they own the "battlespace" that is a friendly NATO country.
Theoretically they're there to get training experience as a higher level command in "Theater". Usually devolves into them just making shit memos to make troops lives worse the whole time
It’s been over 40 years since a Army Corp has had a large role in combat. It’ll take time for this to wrangle out, I mean only if that Corp staff/command gets their face smacked for not doing their role. Edit- Actually I am wrong. If you look at the invasion that would be the last time. Probably. Maybe.
21 years. ARCENT/3rd Army (LTG David McKiernan, corps level commander) was the Coalition Land Forces Component Command directing V Corps and 1 MEF. I caveat this with having no idea what the command was for OND and whatever Syria was/is.
Counterpoint: The success of the Army's support to Ukraine has been earned entirely on the work, creativity, and ingenuity of people in units most have never heard of. Corps, theater, and MACOM staff have been executing wartime missions and winning while trigger pullers are on the sidelines.
Service component commands are the most useless bureaucratic shit organization ive ever seen. ARCENT, ARSOUTH, etc. What the fuck is the point when the combatant command directs the actual operation their support staff just exist to add bullshit or staff officer positions.
As a former division staffer, we know, generally. At the division and above level, there is a certain expectation that the subordinate units will have difficulties with readiness just due to the nature of aging vehicle and system fleets. When we go to war, the plan is already there for a certain percentage of personnel and equipment not being in the fight due to readiness. As for division greed, yeah, it's there for sure. I watched our entire division HQ outfit themselves with the latest laptops and docking stations while the maneuver brigade HQs struggled along with 5-year-old computers that barely functioned. I argued from within the G6 shop to reallocate some computers lower and was told by the G3 basically "they'll figure it out." One of the big reasons senior HQs get a lot of priority is that Big Army really looks at division and corps HQs for answers. FORSCOM couldn't care less about a tank brigade, but as soon as an entire division starts having issues with readiness, FORSCOM starts to care. That scares CGs and DCGs into equipping their headquarters with all of the tools they think will allow their staff to better manage readiness and planning. Whether or not all that emphasis actually helps improve planning, eehhhh. I saw a marginal increase in my own HQ. One other consideration is that computers and automations equipment are the staff's primary weapons system. Think how much worse the last-minute taskings from division would be if they only had one working computer, or didn't have a mouse. I get it, the CG probably doesn't need a $25,000 video teleconference suite for a weekly phone call with corps, but the G3 or G4 planners probably actually do need a few thousand dollars worth of computers and monitors to actually run the division. I do really understand your plight, though. I spent years at the company level, between PL, XO, and command, and at the battalion level. It was always frustrating watching echelons above reality getting fat and happy while I couldn't even get COTS shortages funded for critical systems.
Especially now with the emphasis on division maneuver compared to Iraq and Afghanistan being a company command/battalion command counterinsurgency.
You think the suite is $25,000? That's cute. I just did the acquisition for our new VTC and it was... Well let's just say more than 10 times that amount.
Depends on the extensiveness of the suite, I guess. We had BVTCs for the tactical level and they were \~$20k. Our division conference room standalone VTCs were \~$25k. The big system in the COIC was like $350k+...
Questions on why: Why are we having issues with uploading orders. Why is my admin making me do my DTS to get pushed back 3 times to finally get accepted after “pushback” remarks were inputted? Why are we in charge of inputting our own medical now? Why are we in charge making sure command awards are inputted on my ERB/ ARB? If staff is so busy to where we are independent, what’s that point of appointing soldiers to assist other soldiers if they aren’t assisting.
I've never known an S1 or finance shop that runs effectively. I don't know if that's a product of the systems they're forced to use, the Soldiers they get, or the quality of leadership, but man, I don't understand how it's so hard to do basic HR actions for people.
It's the systems they are forced to use by the Army. We keep changing on them. They have something like 12 different systems they have to use for HR actions, and none of those systems talk to the others. So they are constantly having to swivel chair actions. It's a mess. Supply rooms are the same. At least 4 different systems that don't talk to each other forcing individuals to input data over and over again to get things to work. The best S1s I've ever seen ran the shop like they were just constantly fighting for each HR action. The mediocre ones just kind of gave up.
I received your request for support and fielded it through our analysis process. I regret to inform you that your request is denied due to insufficient evidence. Please provide citations and sources to the information and statements that you mentioned. Additionally, we request concurrence and acknowledgement from your chain of command through your first O-6 in your chain of command before you resubmit your rebuttal. Thank you for your input and understanding. With Kind Regards, Senior Staffer
EXSUM: No.
As someone wearing a diamond in a unit way above reality your post is the truth. Not much to add here.
HHC 1SG eh?
Battery but yeah same shit different toilet
Yep yep , we lost or Top to retirement. Had a lil weasel for CO that was on his way out due to being un promotable . 1st Sgt duties was split between 2 , E-7 that couldn't stand each other . Like if one Troop got put on extra detail by the 1st one , the other would release that Troop at lunch an tell him to go Fuck Off in town or such . Myself an 2 other NCO's finally went to Headquarters to ask for a 1st Sgt . We had made an appointment to speak with The Colonel. When we got there we counted no less than 9 - E8 Master Sgt's playing on typewriters or hanging around coffee pot . Man did we get berated by The CSM , told us there was no need to speak to the Colonel . Do you seriously believe we don't know what's going on . On top of that the 3 of you are AWOL from your Post in my book , a you have 2-1/2 hrs to report back to your assigned duty place , Do I need to call The MP's an provide you with a escort . We did finally get a new CO & Top about 4 months later . But by that time moral was so bad , I had never seen a Company so dysfunctional in The Army .
As a current Company Commander I couldn’t agree with this more. It has gotten ridiculous
I've spend some time with post-soviet NATO armies. They're great guys, but one thing I've learned is that we definietly could be doing much much worse.
Up-or-Out is the heart of the cancer in our military.
Imagine giving all Majors without prior service SELCON to retire. 1. Addresses the OER politicking game in a big way — less existential stress for Officers and their Families, which boost’s retention and keeps the force healthy. 2. Increases the chances of those who truly deserve MQs to get them. Reduces “chasing the dragon” culture we currently have now. 3. Allows key billets across the Army to be filled without fear of vacancies. 4. Increases recruitment “Join as an O — stay the course, if you retire (basically guaranteed), here is a 40k pension tied to inflation, plus some disability, for life”
I’ve worked at all these levels and I’ll tell you right now, a lot of the “issues” the BDE and lower face are of their own making 🤷🏼♂️
Having worked at Brigade and Division echelons as well, I concur. In reality, it's really just a HUMAN problem. The echelon is irrelevant. The Army isn't an organization that talent manages very well, it's an organization that has a constant throughput of personnel coming and going. They have to prioritize getting inexperienced Soldiers experience in various positions, which means that most positions throughout most organizations across echelons, are filled by people who have NEVER done the job before and are trying to learn as they go.
Which is hilarious because when you have a spot like a division staff where you can just boot your underperformers down levels you get efficient/effective sections. It really made me hate being at lower levels more because you see just how much of the bullshit you deal with is because of ego driven “leaders”
I always sent shitbirds when the Corps, Division, or brigade were looking for drivers, etc. Then my CSM just started talking my good soldiers.
Your CSM didn't want you to send shitbirds, because it makes your unit look like they are incompetent at developing Soldiers, and only create shitbirds. That's embarrassing. Obviously that's not the case, but representation matters for details like Command Team drivers and other higher visibility positions.
Yeah, nothing really to disagree with here. At those levels you have a lot of guys that are looking up and out, they are trying to mesh their planning and staffing with the larger trends at corps and combatant command. But they don't do it rationally, by just calling those people and asking what the deal is, they treat the whole thing like the ebbing winds of fate, and they have to read and interpret every dragon and opord and miscellaneous comment from a 4 star at a tech demo as if they were miss cleo channeling the beyond. Then you have the smaller population that is looking down, theoretically they are there enabling war fighters and performing conditions checks but in reality they are micro managing to do anything they can to prevent any evidence of failure from coming to the attention of the people who are busy looking up and out. That's because if the people who are looking up and out have to stop what they're doing to pay attention to a problem at a lower echelon they're going to be big babies about it because people at that echelon assumes that anything that comes across their desk is "a problem only they can solve ^tm " so they assume it's a crisis or they wouldn't have been bothered. In reality it's almost always a result of some earlier decision that was made at the same echelon that wasn't properly resourced or thought out, and it's true that they're the only ones who can solve it, but only because they have sole approval authority, not because they're so unceasingly clever that no one else could solve it. Then you have the smallest population, the people at the highest levels who face inward. These are the staffers, NCOs, and soldiers who for whatever are part of the agreed upon population that is responsible for every internal tasker, planning effort, and shit responsibility. Seriously, the Corps deputy or whatever will come up with some "good idea" and then the same like 30 people who always get roped into these things are rounded up again and put to work. These are individuals from a handful of different sections who see each other more than the supervisors of their actual respective sections. Seriously, it's utterly bizarre, and if you don't know they exist you'll never even know they were there. But if you somehow end up tasked with something and have to interact with them you'll find some iron major or E8 who unofficially runs the whole thing, is like the most charismatic person you've ever met, and you can just see the life leaving their eyes with every second in the job. And the more you work with them the more you'll be amazed that they're here wasting their talents and not killing it as a FDC NCOIC or maneuver company 1sg or something. Someone tell me I'm wrong.
If you want someone to tell you that you're wrong then you are going to be waiting a long time. I can tell you've worked a staff before or currently because you absolutely nailed the dynamic, vibe, personalities and culture. Absolutely love your line about the winds of fate and 4stars. It's so true. I will admit though that sometimes there isn't anyone you can call about it because every is just as lost as you are and you can't just call the 4 *.
Ms. Cleo had a better chance of adding something positive to you and your unit.
Counterpoint: any echelon or organization seems pointless when it’s not doing its job. But if there is no division, you’ll see problems crop up that you didn’t realize division was handling. I have been in a brigade that had no division above it (we reported directly to corps), and it was a pain, because corps is like division but worse (i.e. more bureaucratic). So for example, I had to call the corps ammo manager to approve the tracer rounds you use for AT-4 training. Not a good use of his time or mine. The issue is that in peacetime there is a bunch of pointless stuff that division spearheads. But I was on division staff in Afghanistan, and while we should have been a smaller staff, we were performing legitimately essential tasks the brigades could not do.
I currently work at a COCOM. Can confirm that 80% of the mil bodies are subhumans with field grade ranks that do nothing but sign stuff that the civilians make.
Unpopular opinion: The companies the majority of the time don’t know what they want, blow their resourcing on cool-guy shit they’ll never need or lose in a month thus building a culture of mistrust and disdain from top down because commanders don’t want to provide intent and rely too heavily on the staff to run the boat.
Perfect example. Had a BN complain about not having SAT capabilities, looked at their MTOE and they’re not a unit that requires it. Found a MTOE LIN that actually has systems that run the capability, talked to the Commander and turns out they just didn’t want to use “THOSE” radios because they’re too hard to learn.
To be super honest though, I fucking hate PSC-5's too, and I myself would be begging and groveling for new Harris radios to replace them.
They weren’t PSC-5s. They were 152V4s. The unit was using Motorolas as a primary internal comms and refused to change their SOP to incorporate 148V4s and 152s.
Uhhhhhh you're not gonna love the vibe but Fuck the 148, all my homies hate the 148. Rest in piss, worst radio ever fielded. 152's are dope though, command team officially in the wrong there.
This is not a vibe. The 148 and 148c are the cats pajamas for a team internal, easy to use radio. The 152 also fucks.
Getting 152s would be great. We’re still rolling ASIPS.
Incorrect. 148's in all forms are hell spawn and I hate them.
There is some very specific hate built from your disdain for Thales and I’d like to pour gas onto it IOT analyze the ashes.
It's because the PRC-148 was the only exam in AIT that kept me from the commandant's list or whatever; getting freqs mixed up on the repeater mode. I shall never recover, even though it's been over 10 years at this point lol. It's like my grudge against ADA; sort of real, sort of a meme, 100% unreasonable
Maybe true but the bathroom is so nice and clean.
There are a lot of combat arms field grades that higher echelons have to accommodate. What's the ratio of them to billets at the battalion/squadron or brigade/regiment level? Got to be 10:1 or worse for O6s, and not a lot better for O4s and O5s. But under the current construct where the Army wants officers to have \~15 years of chances to screw up as a field grade to see who's careful/lucky enough to be a general, and where there's always the concept that the Army might have to increase combat brigade count by 5x-10x in a major conventional war, those people need jobs.
Yea… most companies & BNs have no idea what reality is when it comes to funding. I’ll die on this hill. Either timing, actual appropriations law, units wasting money on items they don’t need, or your lower level CMD not supporting is the reason 99% of the time for whatever resources you’re pleading for not getting funded. Edit: to add, a huge portion of the DIV & up level budgets are spent on support that Soldiers don’t even know has to be paid for. There are contracts, CIV Pay requirements, etc. that Soldiers at the CO level just think “happen.” Yes, staffs work to support. However, you’re only seeing a small fraction of the outputs & none of the inputs or competing requirements when you’re at the tactical level.
I agree to a certain extent as someone who works in Division HQ. At the end of the day we all get our orders from higher and we need that direction in order to understand the mission. However there is no doubt that at company level you are so fucking busy doing what 4 different levels above you want that when they ask you to do some petty bullshit in the middle of all that it looks useless as fuck.
Yeah I’m in a Division HQ, my understanding is the 40 or so Field Grade Officers never work. They are not in a command position and many never have been. But since they’re so high ranking, there usually no one ever telling them what to do or ever on them about anything. Some serve a staff purpose. Most serve in a “advisory role” to the CG. Oh yeah they are getting the funding they want first.
Only a few Officer MOSs will promote to field grade without a command. AG, SC, Cyber, Chem, MEDO, Chaplain. All the others need Company Command to make MAJ.
Functional areas too
You typically have to be a post KD complete CPT to get a functional area.
Even for chem you're told you need command. Da Pam 600-3 says BDE Chemo can be the KD time to make you KD complete but branch emphasizes that you won't be competitive for promotion without some type of command (could be chem, TRADOC, USAREC, HHC, etc.).
Finance too, lots of KD options.
Forgot about G8. But y’all really don’t exist lol
That’s fair. We’re everywhere you look, just small & behind the curtains.
this is so wrong I am not even sure why I am responding. All those guys are probably pre-kd types who are rowing to get a chance to go to a brigade. all of your LTC are in KD type jobs where it does matter what happens. I just have no idea how you can say something so wrong so confidently.
Yeah, when I was still active about 6 years ago, I saw this. I was an e5 that was made psg because because higher pulled 3 of our ssgs to be drivers for some generals against their will. Such massive bullshit. Heres what happened with that: I had less than a year left and really didn't care so at the second daily psg and 1sg meeting, I told the 1sg I'd like to speak candidly, and then shot myself in the face. I essentially said, I do not get paid enough to do the job of an e7, as the army is the only place in America where you can be forced to do a job without a pay raise. I said I would do whatever I needed to do for my soldiers, but I would not be staying late every day to shoot the shit in these meetings that could be an email, and often were held at around 1900. I was surprised because he was pissed but ultimately let me do what I said. On my last day, at closeout formation, he dismissed the company without so much as a word of it being a (i think very competent and well liked) NCOs last day. Piece of shit had whole ceremonies for e3s getting out, but not the e5 who was made a psg over a handful of other sergeants. About 6 months after I got out, that 1sg got a DUI at the fucking gate. Sucks to absolutely suck. I had about 5 months left, 2 of which were going to be spent in a transition program, so I had no fucks to give unless it was for my soldiers.
Absolutely true in garrison but I'm in the middle of a division Warfighter exercise attached to division staff and I can see that everyone here will play a crucial role in a large scale combat operation.
In a conventional war over a large theater, div HQ is hugely important. In garrison, not so much...
This sounds like a take from someone who doesn't understand that the tactical level isn't the center of the universe. I get it. The CO level is where the rubber hits the road/the boots hit the ground, and if you can't do that correctly, a lot of things fall apart. You're right that tactical units need to be enabled and set up for success. However... You need to balance that with the understanding that strategic-level decisions are what drive *everything*. Your tactical unit is doing what it's doing because of a multi-year planning effort. That plan is a mammoth undertaking, requiring experts in every single military discipline. It doesn't just magically appear. You genuinely need a shot-ton of field grades to produce something like that and have it make sense/be executable. That plan needs to be able to survive multiple political ~~tantrums~~ shifts, budget reallocations, and all manner of other insane "what if" possibilities. All of this gets lost at the tactical level because of how simple everything is down there. It seems like it should be the easiest thing to ensure that your unit gets to execute training regularly, get equipped with modern gear on time, and maintain its existing stocks. The problem is that *every* unit is asking for that same wishlist, and we don't have the money/personnel to say yes to everyone. So we have to make decisions about who gets what they want, and who has to deal with less than they asked for. The reasons for those decisions are *strategic*, not tactical, and that is why someone looking at all of this from a tactical standpoint will always be angry, and always be wrong. Or, at best, why their anger will always be misplaced.
I also guarantee this dude never interacted with a division primary staff officer...ever. He wouldn't because they wouldn't talk to him about his resource shit. He is seeing this through his BN and BDE XOs and they are probably the ones telling them to kick rocks. Company commanders would buy a bunch of abullshit if we let them instead of spending it on maintenance and needed supplies. It's just bitching to bitch.
Thank you. Having been a Corps level staffer, it was mind numbing to go back to the BN level. The problems are so... Easy to solve. I actually pity my DIV staff now when I work with them. I don't bring my problems to their desk anymore because I know what they are dealing with is way worse than my little land, ammo or calendar issues. I'm happy to figure out how to keep my DTMS slides green now, compared to when I was asked to figure out an O-plan.
Civilian side is just as bad, if not worse... they just budget a whole lot better.
These are the conversations people have when you havent been in a real war for a long time lol no worries though, coming soon
I used to work in a unit in Korea that was in charge of all the USFK fires units. I was the GC holder and every month I had to spend $3500 no matter what because the unit didn’t want to lose the funding. Keep in mind, this unit was a full bird, 2 LTC, a bunch of majors, some captains and a bunch of SSGs. The amount of money that’s wasted in units like these it’s stupid.
Hq is definitely alot more important than you think, HOWEVER there are wayyy more senior E and Os than are actually needed up there
Brigade and higher will become very relevant in a full-scale war with a near-peer adversary, but in our most recent conflicts, the focus has definitely been on smaller units. That isn't to say higher echelons don't still do things; but when their main duty has been to oversee smaller, more-or-less independently operating units, they tend to not really pay as much attention to the big picture as they do to micromanaging those units, or worse, not really getting much of any substance done at all.
Replace them with a Liason Officer and NCO for each BDE. It should be a 1LT and SFC to make sure they’re still sane
I appreciate the sentiment but without some detail it's hard to really relate. I never had an issue getting money for my bde from the division in my 13 months as a XO. if its not going to maintenance and training, what were some of the things you were trying to get? did you talk with the division or is this being filtered through XOs?
You are about to upset the eyebrows that be. They will wiggle at you.
idk man, SF group is pretty useful
Div doesn't exist to support companies, it's the other way around. Instead of saying, "Sure does suck down here in the companies" why not try to move up to Div instead?
So what your saying is I need to get out Roger 🫡
Yeah but who else is gonna patrol around cooper field bitching that people aren’t running fast enough or walkers are too close together. But for real is so frustrating trying to keep up with the optempo with half broken stuff and new/half staffed sections and platoons. Something’s gonna break real soon if things don’t change. But I’m sure those MQs on OERs won’t happen otherwise.