i’m an expat who makes $18k/mo living alone, and i feel like that’s adequate. that said, i also know locals who make $4k/mo and they also feel that’s adequate.
it’s possible to make any salary work here, it just depends on what kind of lifestyle you’re looking for. if you want to live in a condo and go to cafes, bars, and restaurants you’re going to need to earn significantly more than if you’re fine living in government housing and eating at hawker centers everyday.
Most of my expenses go towards rent/utilities (usually around $3.5K/mo), restaurants/bars, and travel. I go out to eat and drink A LOT and spend recklessly when I do. Beyond that I live quite modestly - I rarely buy clothes, makeup, or other material items, don't have entertainment expenses, and try to take public transportation everywhere.
In total I probably spend about $12-15K total every month.
Nice meals in SG now start at $100 pp. if you want tasting menus or fancier places, 300++. Throw in some good booze (bottle of decent wine or sake each at these places? Or per pair?) you can quite easily hit $500 just for your own dinner. Do that once a week with a few $1-200 meals peppered here and there and poof thats maybe 4-5k a month.
Drink as they described can be $300 just on cocktails. Go to a club and 1k each a night is quite easy even when going light (a bottle and maybe a dom each, and random shots in between). Club once a fortnight, and have nights out maybe twice a week, and poof thats another 4-5k.
Just like that without thinking too hard, you can blow 10+k a month before necessities haha.
Thankfully I stopped clubbing before my ability/willingness to spend that much in a night hit. So thats more like a once a year affair for me haha.
But $100 isnt even fine dining imo, a random tanjong pagar restaurant with casual trendy vibes will get you there. Share a starter (25++/2) have a main (40++) and share a dessert (15++/2), and have one alcoholic drink (20++), and voila you’re at $100 😂
If you like good wine you should do corkage when you dine out. The markups are insane here.
If you buy in bond and import you can easily save 30% off local retail pricing too. Then pay corkage or 1 for 1 and you get great wine at prices restaurants want to sell you cheap swill.
Also lol at buying Dom in a club. At least cocktail bars there's some skill in the prep and infusion etc.
Usually in restaurants I only ever buy their cheapest wines (or second cheapest, depending on where the value is likely to be based on the establishment). Their best are usually crazily marked up, and the medium ranges tend to not be much better than the cheapest. In those cases, its usually just to get something decent for the food while giving me the convenience of not having to bring my own bottle. 1-for-1 where we can negotiate it for bigger nights. Steakhouses tend to be generous in accommodating us as long as we bring some good shit. Also, some good Chinese restaurants offer free corkage, and if you've not tried, its a great pairing.
But ultimately, I have long since moved to hosting at home, so this isnt that relevant anymore. Invest in one or two proper wine fridges, and you've built your own wine cellar ;) And yes, I pay half or less than SG retail for my booze, which I am running out of shelf and storeroom space for come to think of it,..sigh.
On Dom, yeah - but if you're opening champagne in a club you should know why you're doing it la. Clout, vibes, flex - whatever. As long as you know why you're spending that grand (I do think certain vintages of Dom are worth their retail value - partial to the '08, but might be because it was the first I tried haha). Anyway it was just an example of how quickly and easily you can rack bills up on FnB alone, if you don't fuss about budgeting or optimising value.
Yeah that's fair. I echo your comments about mostly doing stuff at home. Can open 4-5 good bottles with a few friends and have a way better time (plus no time limit).
I love zi char for wine dinners. Have a few groups we do tastings with and often go to one for the free corkage. Only faff is needing to bring your own glasses.
I only have a small fridge in my flat, but quite a lot stored in bond for the future.
most of my friends work in hospitality so it's quite common for us to take turns footing the bill, because we know eventually it'll even out. they're used to travelling the world and getting treated at nice restaurants, bars, and hotels, so even though it sounds privileged to the average person, we don't really think twice about meals the average person might reserve for special occasions.
They might not be comfortable in nice places? Once hung with a girl who was uncomfortable hanging in any bar or restaurant fancier than a pub. So we just ended up drinking at flower joints all the time 😂
Ah. Sounds about right. I do the same with a much lower budget. I guess the places where we each consider lavish differs and hence the price tag.
I spend about 2k every month. May I further ask, on a typical reckless night. What kind of place or food do you get?
it’s usually going to multiple cocktail bars where drinks are $27-30 and buying rounds for my friends. the pours are smaller here than in the US so i have a bad habit of finishing drinks too quickly, plus i never have time to eat between work and going out so i’ll up ordering snacks at bars too, which adds up. a typical night of bar hopping will usually cost me around $300, and then usually we’ll end up at HDL or some other equally expensive supper place.
the $30 cocktails is Waldorf Hotel NYC Manhattan prices... I guess people conflate SG with the rest of SEA and then they freak out at the prices of hotels and things.
locals usually don’t have to pay rent, so a foreigner/expat would have to earn substantially more ($2-4k) than a local to have the same standard of living.
i have an upcoming BTO ($450k) and my 25 year HDB loan can be fully paid off with CPF even at my current salary. it’s way more affordable than renting an entire HDB.
Provided can get BTO. Resale prices are crazy nowadays. Unless don't mind Jurong West and Yew Tee or lease less than 60 years.
If got 3 kids need 3 bedroom, you can check how many 4/5 rooms resale in the whole Singapore within 450k.
of course resale will be more expensive than BTO? but even resales aren't that unaffordable when you adjust expectations. you can easily find 4-room flats with >70 year lease for under $600k if you filter on PropertyGuru. mortgage will still be way cheaper than rental.
4-room flat with 74 years lease, 8min walk from Admiralty MRT, $520k: [https://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/hdb-for-sale-666-woodlands-ring-road-25199562](https://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/hdb-for-sale-666-woodlands-ring-road-25199562)
Yup isn't it that's what I mentioned. As long as don't mind Yew Tee/ Admiralty north area and Jurong West then maybe can get la
But the rest of regions 4 room below 500k? Forget it.
But I am not complaining though? And I didn't say it's not fair. So not sure why you have the impression i want to have cake and eat it? I didn't say migrate too.
I am just realistically saying in response to his comment that there are people who can't get BTO and just have to be thrifty to survive.
OP stated they want to have kids and live an upper middle class life, not squashed in a tiny apartment and eating the cheapest hawker meals. OP should read what is considered upper middle class in US cities, look up the one for NYC and multiply by 4.
- Housing for non-citizens, a decent size condo would be a couple million to buy, $4-5k in rental per month
- Education for non-citizen kids, at least $20k per year
- Car - $100k for 10 years for an average car, not including road tax, running costs
That's just the basics, not including food, monthly bills...
Would be great if you could share more details like what your role is and how you landed a job here. S$18k per month sounds like your role must be pretty high up the corporate ladder (I’m assuming upwards of senior manager / director) in order to earn that much.
I'd prefer not to share specific details about the role as this is my private Reddit account and I know some of my coworkers frequent this sub, but I'm the head of a department at a global creative agency. I was headhunted from my last agency in the US to help my company shore up their abilities in this department, as it's quite hard to find local talent capable of thinking outside the box at this level of leadership.
To be honest this kind of salary is quite common in my industry, especially if you're good at what you do (which, to be frank, I am). I actually took a 45% pay cut to move here, and I'm pretty sure male colleagues at my level are paid more than me.
18k including bonuses so are we talking 220k? Cos bonuses make a big difference haha.
I agree that sounds low for a department head in a global creative (publicis? Haha) if I’m being honest
Unfortunately I don't think there'll be any bonuses in my future until we can get some new business wins  But if for some reason we have a good year any bonuses will be on top of my salary.
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There is a saying that wealth is like saltwater , the more you consume the more thirsty you. Just spend within your means and everything is gonna be fine
Nah, you need rent and childcare no amount frugality and living within your means is going to help. The reality is that for foreigners without subsidies you need to earn a lot to survive.
OP:
-2 bed apartment minimum $4000 a month, more like 5-6k (and 3x that for landed).
-childcare minimum $1500 a month, more like 2k
-transport $200-500
-health insurance $200-500 per person (plus out if pocket for lower insurance covers).
-groceries are expensive, minimum $1000 for a small family, could easily double that.
-then you have to save for your tax (it's not deducted before being paid.)
-utilities $150-250 a month
With 1 child, living frugally I can't get my monthly costs below 9k. I wouldn't choose to move to SG for less than 14k. Everything in SG is expensive, even 'little things' like a yoga class cost 2x, and there isn't really much to do that doesn't cost money.
Very useless answer, not sure why it’s upvoted. There’s a standard of living amount. Minimum for rent can be calculated, food too. You can’t consume less than the minimum or you die, not everything will be fine.
Minimum $20K but better lifestyle $25-30K per month. Just because of the kids.
International school is $20-50K per year, per child. (Local school not really possible for foreigners, but even that costs $10-20K per year for non-ASEAN international student fees)
Housing is the next biggest expense. $3-6K per month minimum for a 3 bed condo. But some Expats pay $10-20K per month.
International groceries probably $2K per month minimum for a family of 4-5.
Transport minimum $500 per month for public transport & taxis. $2-3K per month for a car.
Insurance can easily be $1000 per month. Often more. Foreigners aren’t eligible for subsidised healthcare or hospital stays.
You’ll want to go away on holidays. Even a cheap holiday in SEA can easily be $2-6K for a family of 4 for a week. Plus factor in flights back to Canada every year.
Almost forgot - you will want to make sure you have retirement savings - as you’re not eligible for CPF (unless Citizen or PR).
Plus the usual clothing (more expensive than Canada / USA), dining out (can be cheap hawkers to fine dining but even a mid-priced meal is $100-200 for like sushi or pizza for a family of 4. More with alcohol).
Entry to local school is not automatic for foreigners. There is a cap of about 5% of student population allowed to be international students. So there are few places available to nonSC/PR.
For P1 entry is via a ballot system, with limited places available compared to number of applicants. For entry for other year levels, students must sit the AEIS exam, which is highly competitive. MOE only accepts the very best students via AEIS.
It really depends on visa issues frankly. Most foreigners here have to send their kids to international schools and school fees itself is more than 40k per year per kid
Once that is solved, the amount needed becomes much more flexible.
Other big cost to consider in Singapore are housing and transport
Housing: how big of a place do you need? Most live in public housing called HDBs. Can you rent in a HDB instead of a condo?
Transport: cars are very very very expensive. Can you live without one?
Private apartment, car or ride share everywhere, international school, international travel then for a family of 4 to be comfortable will be about 400k annual household income
Very comfortable probably need more than that
Many things in Singapore are priced based on visa. You cannot look at median household income for locals to judge how much you will need as a foreigner for a upper middle class lifestyle
> Transport: cars are very very very expensive. Can you live without one?
yes.
how much for international to rent a townhouse?
private school is not a problem. i'd put my kids in a private school in Canada anyway, which costs around the same.
Given the small size of the country, less than 10% of household live in a landed property. \~12k per month for a rental of terraced house (I believe this is the closest equivalent of a townhouse) in a more central location.
The fact that you are not local will impact you more if you want to rent HDBs (the public housing). If you are renting a landed house, it shouldn't matter. Maybe they will start at a higher asking price but renting here always involves negotiating. So research and don't be embarrassed to haggle. PropertyGuru is the site most use so it'll be good for your research
Also you will most likely never be able to buy the property. There is a 60% foreigner tax for property purchase. Unless you get permanent residency (very difficult for Canandian) or get citizenship (even harder and involves giving up your canadian citizenship)
Somebody downvoted you just for saying "thank you" LOL. This is also what you need to be prepared for in Singapore, lots of negativity from some people for no valid reason. And I'm sure I'll also be downvoted for saying that but I don't care.
To your question, think you also need to be clearer if you are asking about month-to-month living comfortable, and/or medium to long term savings and comfort. The dollar examples you give sound like medium to longer term goals?
Yeah I upvoted them to try and bring it back up lol. They are being downvoted in so many comments for no reason. So far they have not been rude or anything, just asking questions
Yes me too. This sub can be a bit like that sometimes, unfortunately. I see lots of their other comments also downvoted for no obvious reason. This whole sub is supposed to be where people can safely ask questions and they shouldn't be downvoted for doing so.
And I don't understand someone's thought process of "someone wrote thank you, so I will downvote it" LOL.
\*cough\* townhouse??? I guess OP really has no idea what it's like in SG. The rental would be about that of a brownstone in NYC... there aren't any in central locations ... 12k would get you a condo though, maybe 1000sq ft?
Singapore has a lot less land than Canada.
You'll need much more than 200k pa if you prefer to live on any type of landed property including townhouses (we call them terraced houses). With landed property, you'll need a car or cab often as they are usually less accessible via public transport. Rentals are S$8,000 and up depending on location, size etc.
Yes and it's still A LOT MORE land than us. Even in downtown Toronto where I used to live, there's landed housing.
Just to give you a scale difference. The entire area of Greater Toronto is 7.4km2 -- 10 times the size of Singapore with the same 6m population. And I've not even considered any other city in Canada.
Yeah. I lived in Ottawa (the capital city) with my husband, and it is nearly 4 times bigger than Singapore.
Ottawa has a population of what, 990k people?
A townhouse is probably going to cost you more than $8k a month. A cheap and very old townhouse, maybe $6.5k onwards. An upper middle-class kinda townhouse? Probably $15k.
Curious though. Why?
I moved to Australia for work. But will never consider giving up my Singapore citizenship. Our passport is too strong to give up.
Do you think holding a different coloured passport makes white? 😅
Ultimately you’ll still be second class citizen in a western country.
Its not about being white, Its that these countries are legitmately nicer to live in if you are alternative
Heck, even as someone in conventional STEM, the stuff I want to pursue, that would be normal elsewhere, is very alternative and underground lol
Thats how conformative singapore is
As a European potentially considering moving to Singapore, I would love to know why you say so. Open to different perspectives. The salaries people mention in this post (200-400k SGD) just don't really exist in Europe, unless you're the CEO of a multinational company or the top 0.1% of earners. You need way less to live comfortably in Europe, so I'm quite confused. 400k SGD is around 275k Euros, which is insane. If Singapore offers those salaries (and much lower taxes) that would be the dream.
I think many of us dream of work life balance and not living life in a pressure cooker
Those salaries are rare here too but they do exist. Singapore is one of the highest labour cost in Asia. If you can get one of these jobs, grind and save and exit. Not a bad plan. It’s like US-lite
In return, any resemblances of WLB is shot. Even for jobs that do not pay this much, it is a very capitalist country. For the jobs that pay this much, everyone is trying theirs very best to not lose the job (not easy to find again) so they are hustling all the time.
As a personal example, I am burnt the fuck out and feel like I’m on survival mode all the time. I cant find another job that pays what my current does. I’ve had many LinkedIn inmails and on the first call, I’ve already maxed out of their pay range. So I’m sticking it out and trying to max out my retirement savings best as I can
Despite the high salary, I still live in the public housing that most of us live in. A condo of a proper size still feels like a pipedream. Because the high salary wasn’t always high, Singapore has developed over the years and salaries are finally catching up
Thanks for the detailed reply. Excuse my naive question, but how many hours a week would you say you "need" to work in order to keep your job? The productivity per hour decreases significantly after a certain threshold is reached leading to diminishing returns and in the long term the effects of burnout might outweigh the extra productivity. Is this just about showing "face time" regardless of output in order not to lose your job?
How quickly do you think you would lose your job if you were to work a European-style 40 hour week?
As I said I'm just curious as I consider Singapore as a successful country and am also considering moving there.
I've also seen people working long hours just because they "think" it looks good but then it doesn't always affect promotions (this may be company dependent of course) and when it's time to make redundancies I also don't think it affects your chances of being included. So I don't always get it, it's more like they do it to somewhat wash away some sense of guilt for not doing enough. I don't know how to describe it. That's from my experience of course but cannot speak for the Singapore companies.
My company pays us a lot of lip service about how there’s no requirement to work more than our 40 and that we have a lot of flexibility. It’s all true, kinda but if I strictly stayed within my lane and only worked those hours I can see myself stretching it out for 6 months before I’ll be done for.
Most of the jobs at this pay range are regional roles from MNCs (usually US tech or finance). So there’s expectations to work with HQ, meaning working early mornings and late night very often. I find it hard for the brain to truly switch off. Some people probably have perfected how to do this.
There are companies with expectations to “show” you’re working but not so much at my company. The expectation is only on results. They will says “have a great vacation” or “get well soon” (even for surgeries) but deadline and level of expected results never change.
I can’t remember a vacation where I didn’t bring my laptop or I didn’t log on for something. I’m not even in a very senior position.
Now it sounds like I’m ranting 😂
You’re maybe also right that I could probably scale back but that’s the anxiety the system creates I suppose. Someone else wants my job and it’s not so easy for me to find another job so I push myself for results
ETA my husband and I are aiming to save and retire in Europe. But I’m very sure we’ll also miss the efficiency of Singapore
I see, at least they're aware that WLB is a good thing. Out of curiosity, how confident you are that you'll be booted in 6 months if you work a solid 40 hour week? Have you seen it happen to colleagues or is it just based on fear? Maybe you're totally right, I'm not saying anything as I don't know the environment, I'm just asking to probe this point.
I probably don't earn as much as you do, but here in the UK I still earn a very good salary for my level of seniority and above many of my peers. I've always set boundaries from the beginning and refused to do overtime, and never had a problem with it. I find that if other colleagues accepted longer hours at the beginning, then it just became expected of them. They think they look better but I don't think they do. It's like, if the boss sees that I respect my time they think twice before asking me for extra work, and if I say I'll do it tomorrow they never push back. I've had my share of promotions along the way without issues, as my work quality was good, and I was also made redundant once, but I'm still pretty confident that that had nothing to do with the hours, in fact the start-up was going donwhill and there was very little work left to do to even fill the 40 hours. Overtime work is definitely prevalent in a number of industries in the UK too (though maybe not as much as in the US) but from my anecdotal experience I found that it's you that need to set the bar for yourself, and often people will respect you if they see you respect your free time. At least that's my experience, but your mileage may vary. Maybe I've just been lucky so far, maybe I'm not senior enough for people to care, who knows
In theory I agree with everything you said. But in practice I think there is a bit more fear and anxiety here due to lack of employee protection like in Europe.
Could I last more than 6 months? Very possible but do I want to test it? I'm not so sure. Have I seen people being let go easily in my company, yes.
Singapore has the least amount of employee protection in Asia, giving employees less leverage. There is no bar for termination. Basically an employer only needs to give notice (usually 1 month). Employees are scared to set boundaries early as probation periods are 3 months and no reason is needed other than it didn't work out to be let go during probation. You don't even need to pay for the notice period. So in practice, employees tend to go above and beyond during probation and inevitably set the tone in that direction
This is by design and has allowed Singapore to prosper. It is employer friendly in tax as well as agility to mould the workforce. Singaporeans have also not really pushed back due to a combination of leaning towards being more financially driven and viewing confucius principles of being hardworking highly
It really is US-lite in work culture and labour protection. Where it's different is that there are many social safety nets for locals (foreigners are sadly on their own) should they lose their jobs. You will not need to be too worried about basic survival needs, thriving is another matter
I see, that makes sense regarding lack of employee protection. Yes that probably explains everything then. My guess though is that even in Europe someone making €300k per year would not have as many protections as the average employee on <100k so it may not be that different in that regard, but I'm not so sure to be honest. Healthcare and education is basically next to free though, and even in the UK it is government subsidised if you're a local student.
The only thing I would say is that even here often the probation period is 3 months, but hiring is very expensive (recruiter fees are 20% of the first year salary) so I wouldn't say that companies let people go at the blink of an eye during probation unless it is really not working, but letting people go for not working regular overtime is not common unless you work in an environment where overtime is expected from your contract and compensated accordingly. I'm sure some companies might do, but not one I'd want to work for. In some industries like banking you're often asked to sign an [opt-out agreement](https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/weekly-maximum-working-hours-and-opting-out) which is legally required if you regularly work more than 48 hours a week. But if you sign that then there is no surprise, and you know what you're getting yourself into. But outside banking it's not common to sign one based on my knowledge.
I didn't know that Singapore has the least amount of employee protection in Asia though, that's interesting, I'll look into this a bit more. Thanks a lot for all the info.
In europe you get to do way more shit that you cant in singapore and the pace of life is generally better
Just look how the art scene died in like just 10 years, we went from being at the tip of mandopop and satire with the noose to now basically nothing.Seriously, the only real modern singaporean artistes I can lidt down are like The Willows and Yung Raja (really cool rapper do a lil bit like kendrick iirc?)
In europe you get to do way more shit that you cant in singapore and the pace of life is generally better
Just look how the art scene died in like just 10 years, we went from being at the tip of mandopop and satire with the noose to now basically nothing.Seriously, the only real modern singaporean artistes I can lidt down are like The Willows and Yung Raja (really cool rapper tho a lil bit like kendrick iirc?)
You can’t compare a European salary to Singapore or really any non-Socialist country. Over my career, Singapore is likely one of best place in the world to earn money after the US. The cost of living is high but the low taxes (if you aren’t American) easily make up for it. 400K SGD is a senior level position at a multinational. If you’re a higher level non-executive total salary after bonuses can easily reach $600-800K+ SGD.
IMO, Singapore offers a better balanced lifestyle compared to the US for vacation, sick time, holidays, and work hours along with decent pay. But Singapore lacks the social safety nets, pensions, medical, parental leave, worker protections, etc of Europe.
I wouldn't really call Europe "socialist" to be honest, especially nowadays. Yes some countries like in Scandinavia might have better welfare and some like the UK might be closer to the US in some regards, but none of them are really socialist in my view.
Anyway, you raise an interesting point, hence why I didn't understand why people would immediately swap Singapore for Europe or any Western country.
lol nope. Living situation in Canada is getting worse and worse. Unaffordable housing and uncontrolled immigration. Go to canada housing subreddit and you will see. I’ll choose Singapore any day
https://youtu.be/Rn338keGUrE?si=r1mh_DeJqiQv7maY
Firstly, you will need to get a working visa to get into the country. Most likely you will be looking at Employment Pass but the recent rules and point system has made it even harder to get one. Check them out before considering.
Second, if you can get a PR, it would help heaps to get a good home for your family. Best if become a citizen as landed is only for Singaporeans. With PR, the best you can get is 2nd hand HDB flats and condo. EPs only condo. It would cost you around SGD 3,000 - 5,000 per month before any utilities.
Third, to live comfortably after putting away 20% mandatory monthly for your CPF, you would need SGD $10,000/month and above. Some of the comments below have valid points of the amount you need per month just for rental of the entire unit of 3 - 4 rooms per unit. Expenses are subjective as you will really need to be frugal since most restaurants and services does have mandatory 9% GST.
Lastly, unlike Canada whereby you go around with cars as a necessity, cars in Singapore are basically luxury and privileges that only last you 10 years max before needing to scrap it and can cost 1/4 of most HDB flats. Most locals go around with buses and MRT.
In short, there are additional factors other than just how much money you need but can you bare with some of the unexpected difficulties and restrictions as a foreigner in Singapore that need to be taken into consideration.
The thing is if you’re not very well off, the government basically settles all your fees for your kids including higher education (most kinds they can do well in, more for STEM tho tbf). So all you need to pay for yourself is housing (you can fit a surprising amount of kids in a room with bunk beds) and food (shop at ntuc, cook often), and so just 4k can go a pretty long way.
But thats not upper middle class per what OP wants la hahha
Comfortably is very subjective. You mentioned no car so that brings down your sum needed significantly since public transport is very affordable here. Food wise I don’t see anything above, but if you go local and eat at coffee shops, it can be very affordable as well. Also mentioned above is education for 2 (or more?) kids in international school, this will be your major expense. Rental if you can do with a 3 bedroom public housing that’s about 3k per month. Slightly cheaper than a condominium.
For the above specs, personally I estimate you will need about 150k, but with minimal retirement savings.
But they want to stay in landed so gg already. Sure need min 200k cos landed up the cost for everything. Usually not close to public transport, need car or grab everywhere. Cleaner will be more ex cos larger area. Utilities also higher etc etc etc
The 200k is also before leisure/entertainment or any saving for retirement
Singaporean/PR (< $10k per month can live nice)
Foreigner (Min $20k pm to survive as a couple)
1. Cant buy 4 or 5 room HDB flats for $500k locals enjoy
2. No CPF or pension for you
3. No additional CPF contribution from employer
4. Can only buy condo (starting $1million)
5. Pay 60% tax on property (eg $1.6m for 1m 2 room flat)
6. Pay higher school/college fees than locals
7. No Climate vouchers for household items
8. No monetary support during calamities like Covid
9. Can’t change jobs/pursue passion at will without new EP provided employer has quota left to hire foreigners
10. No tax relief if parents living with or near (5.5k to 9k)
11. No tax relief of $2k for non working spouse
12. No qualifying child relief of $4k
13. No Course fee relief of $5.5k to upskill yourself
14. No MediShield/MediCare/MediFund for healthcare
15. No pathway/transparent point system for PR
Takeaway, if you get paid even +$6k more than a local for same job, same role and same seniority in a company, don’t drift thinking you are privileged and the hiring manager is partial to you. They are only attempting to ensure you can live a bare minimum life and survive while you contribute to nation development with unique skills that Singapore & its people need for their growth. Singapore government is rightly amazing in this aspect of taking care of its people and wellbeing which it should. So as a foreigner, if your aim is to get married, have a kid, buy a home, possibly have a car and live the fundamental aspects of life for settling, take all these into consideration while deciding to bring/start a family, and DD & verify yourself the numbers above as they may have evolved over years.
So you can aim for Singapore for its standard of living. Alternatively there are places like UK, US & Australia that recognises that the next decade of growth for a country and its people will come from ‘mid level’ foreign talents to permanently settle alongside locals, start a family and contribute in strengthening with new age skills as AI and climate change evolves rapidly.
Condos no longer start at a million. Assuming OP wants a 3 bedder to house 2 kids long term, thats what, 1100 square feet minimum to be comfortably sized? Assume you go to somewhere cheaper and older like katong, maybe 1500psf. Thats 1.7m assuming OP can avoid the 60% foreigner tax.
OP asked about townhouses (equivalent of an inter terrace). Those with some basic modernisation start at 3m or so.
In 2023 the median salary is about 5-6k per month for Singaporean.
Expat is easily double so upper middle class livelihood would be about 13-16k per month and add about 3-5% per year to account inflation.
Victoria is lovely. I visited when I was living in Vancouver for a few years. Remembered my drive to Tofino. Breathtaking.
Ultimately traded all that & moved back to Asia because well, to put it bluntly - Canada, BC specifically is fucked for the next decade. High unemployment, depressed wages, foreign money, high immigration (not quality immigrants) driving high property and drugs.
There is no middle class and social economic mobility is dead.
You’re welcome to come make your pot of gold in SG.
if I were a foreigner, Singapore will feel like the right place to go especially if you have a profession that is well sought after. Especially if you are young and adaptable, because of the lower tax bracket. It will feel good for a few years, then you can evaluate after that.
Do you mind sharing how much you roughly make in Canada? And what industry? It might give a better idea of what range you should be looking at for a similar life here.
I've heard good things about income-generating ETFs with monthly payouts in Canada so that could help with monthly costs. The dividends here don't pay as much.
Rental would make up the bulk of your expenses which I hear is the same in Canada and it'll be an apartment. Actually owning an apartment would be exorbitant.
As most answers have figured out the costs for you, I'd like you to consider the weather. While you can sort out the finances, actually breathing the average 26-31 Celsius daily is a different matter. Based on what Google tells me, it's a huge jump from Canada.
Are you sure you want to raise kids here..
the education system is very stressful. There is a strong tuition culture here. It's a rat race. It's not fun from secondary school onwards.
The pros are that the kids can learn other languages (not sure about private schs but in public sch we can learn another language separately - Chinese Malay Tamil as a mother tongue), and there is world class uni.
Source: coming from someone who grew up here. Parents had the chance to immigrate to Canada but chose not to.
I have cousins in Canada. It seems that they have an easier life and still manage to go to top unis there. There is also more nature and places to explore/travel to. Sg is really a little red dot, it keeps you in a comfortable bubble but limits a person's view of the world as well
You do know if a foreigner comes working here, odds are they will be in international school which is closer to foreign Western countries than SG standards right
Hahaha then I wonder what's the point.... Cos if like that it's the same as attending school in western country...
Esp since op mentioned he/she is coming over with the purpose of raising kids
This. Absolutely wild to read someone from NA/Europe dreaming to come to SG to raise their kids.
The opposite was true for us: now we got kids we moved back to our home country. Virtually all other couples we know of that did similarly did so because of the reasons you stipulate.
Very subjective. Upper middle suggests private flat (not public housing) plus car. If 2 kids (in local school) I would say S$400,000. Our family lives in public housing. We spend about $180,000 a year - kids in local school, no tuition. We live and eat (!) well. No pension so must also save for retirement…
To live here you need a job, and they're only allowed to hire foreigners if they meet certain criteria. Search for EP requirements to find out if you meet them.
If not on an EP there are a couple of other visas if you can invest a lot (like a million) or start a business. If you can't do one of those things, you can't move to Singapore.
And miss out on Canadian politeness?
I met this Singaporean dude who spent 5+ years in Canada and when back, he's always reminiscing about how polite ppl are in Canada.
Politeness is not really big in everyday life in Singapore.
We get these questions a lot. If you got 2 kids and live in a condo at a decent location, your expenses for just housing plus international school will be 150k a year.
As a single, you could get by cheaply if you rent just a room, take MRT and eat hawker food. Costs go up significantly when you decide to rent a whole unit and/or have kids
When I first moved to Singapore 10 yrs ago, I was on 5-6k a month, but it was just sufficient for me renting a room (back then rent was a lot more affordable).
As an expat family w 2 kids living very comfortably (going to restaurants to eat a few times a week, being able to take grab liberally) with also savings for retirement, reckon you would want 300k combined at least. Less than that, you would make some sacrifices & still save for retirement.
Hawkers - imagine Asian street food vendors who each specialise in just one type of tasty food -but many many of them arranged together in one convenient place. That’s a hawker center
Plus it’s safe, regulated and still relatively cheap compared to restaurants (although prices have gone up up a lot over the years)
basically no health care.
high taxes.
everyone wants to be a realtor or work for government. culture is basically crab mentality and going after people who are better than you. this starts in grade school. they axed the gifted programs a few years ago cause it made the regular kids feel bad or something. now they've gotten rid of grades until grade 11 or 12.
everyone from new moms to old people who have lumps can't find a doctor in time because there are none.
also increasing taxes going after "rich" people, where rich is anyone who is not middle class.
interesting, I've been to vancouver many years ago to visit relatives that immigrated there and it was a great place. Beautiful nature. They also seemed to attract a lot of immigrants in skilled work. But quality of life there has since dropped and everyone in canada seems to want out.
a singaporean culture necessities you comparing and comparing and comparing till you die. we are a ultra capitalist country.
you don't want your kids to feel poor like you were when growing up? please, don't move to Singapore. the poverty mind set will be entrenched for generations to come.
everyone here thinks of money money money. just go to sgexams subreddit to figure out why do kids subject themselves to 24 seven studying? coz they enjoy the intellectual stimulation? nope, cos they are subject to the same shit fear of living a life of inadequacy. You think the top notch kids want to get into public service coz they are dying to serve the nation? Please read the subreddit. they all want the security and prestige of being a scholar.
I feel at least 6k will be comfortable but having at least one fixed asset like property. I feel car is a liability and depreciate but it provides the necessity of having convenient for transportation and other needs for usage of vehicle. But the amount is sufficient for a single.
I am currently earning 3.5k, bring home 2.8k. I won't say this amount is inadequate but it does not provide me with flexibility to spend or reduction of financial liability.
9k might still be doable when your kid is still a preschooler - send him/her to local school, maybe have one enrichment class. But everything changes once they go to primary school and unfortunately don’t get a place in local school 🥶
Right 6k is a comfortable number I think so. Anything more I think the job might be too stressful, below this number there is not ideally as much wriggle room financially :/
1. Opposite weather: You need to ask yourself if you like the weather in Singapore. Unlike Canada that has long and cold winter Singapore is the complete opposite with extremely hot & humid weather meaning you will sweat & feel sticky most of the time.
2. High cost of living : Unless you can afford a house here I don't recommend that you come here. Average rental price has doubled after the COVID pandemic and it is not surprising that you must prepare at least SGD 4-5k monthly rent just for one-bedder in a condominium. Landlords are well-known to be greedy and may jack-up the rental price without notice.
3. Job finding : You need to find a high-paying job at least 5 digits in local currency to be qualified as an expat.
4. Density of Singapore : Unlike Canada Singapore is an island with a high population density. Everywhere you go especially on weekends will be packed with people. Your house or room will certainly be much smaller than you expect.
5. High living expenses : Basic necessities like electricity & water & food will be much higher than neighbouring countries.
6. Raising kids & education in Singapore is extremely tough : Again basic necessities like milk powder & diapers are expensive. Sure Singapore had one of the better education systems but it's tough & competitive so you will need to prepare your kids from young age to be prepared for exams & they will undergo tremendous stress.
That's just some of my thoughts. Feel free to ask if you have any questions.
It really depends on the definition of living comfortably.. I know friends who earns $20K per month and yet still complaining about not having enough. While I know some who earns just enough and happy with their lives.
It depends on the mindset and also your lifestyle. $10k a month without kids and you can live a middle upper class lifestyle. The problem with having kids is that in Singapore, there is still an Asian mum mindset and enrolling your kids in various hobby classes (ballet, piano, taekwondo etc) can be expensive. Not to mention the yearly holiday trips abroad which can easily be $3000 per pax.
Expat on $500k with a family of four.
Lifestyle is somewhat comparable to Australia on $350k because:
1) Cars are so expensive
2) School fees are ridiculous (school bus is $3.5k per child per year - the cost of a car partially offsets this).
3) Wife can’t work on EP - so family income is $100k lower (at least now you can apply for one pass if over income threshold)
4) Rent is insane - unfortunately we had to lock in a small 3bdrm apartment for 2 years at the market peak.
I assumed what I saved in tax would be offset by a higher cost of living, and judging by how much we save & invest pre-Singapore and now, that’s broadly held true.
We love living in Singapore - but don’t count on banking the tax saving.
$100k SGD p.a ? What do you think SG is? Buffalo NY? You are wayyyy off... Not with kids, not even in Buffalo NY ... you could swing it in Baltimore where $100k would put you in the top percentile but in SG with a family, you will be scraping by. As a former SGer, I know I'd definitely be on the struggle bus with the same salary I have here.
Edit: I literally cannot afford the rental on my own HDB apartment in SG!
I would assume upper middle class would be living in at least a condominium. I would say minimum 20k a month for combined income. Since 10k a month is roughly top 20% of Singaporeans.
If you’re of Chinese ethnicity it would be much easier to secure PR and citizenship. If you’re not, good luck. Hopefully you marry a local.
Well, for starters, cars here are well beyond 200k. If you want to live comfortably here (enough to have car, house, savings, travels) your annual income shld exceed 200k if you have a family. We are the most expensive city in the world for a reason.
So it largely depends on your lifestyle. I earn about $14k a month and I live by myself. I spend about $5k a month and I’m able to save / invest the rest.
Bangladeshi PR living in SG here, my father earns 10K monthly and has 2 kids (including me) and still struggled to pay for both our school fees. i’m currently working so it’s a little relief for my father. but if you’re talking about comfort i’d easily say 20K because anything below 15K definitely doesn’t cut it.
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It really depends on how you live and what you perceive as “essential”. The fastest way to immigration would be to marry a Singaporean citizen. Full stop 😂
If you are raising kids, you have to assume at least $25k SGD per kid. As an expat the ability to get into local schools is extremely limited by quota, so you will almost def have to contaminate schools. And $25k/year is on the low end.
3br condo rental will run at least $6k a month. So with the schools, assuming two kids, you are already at $10k/month without any food, transport, holidays, extra curricular, etc.
Expats have to pay a min 15% tax on income.
You’re looking at $20k per month bare minimum for a middle class lifestyle.
Currently costs around $100k just for the permission to buy a car, and the car itself will also be very expensive.
Upper middle class? Min $30k/month I would say.
You need to define upper middle income lifestyle dude
1. So probably no hdb then. Average 3BR condo approx 1.5m depending on location
2. Lifestyle wise you would want a Car. A average Camry cost like 250k. Better car like bmw would cost 3-400k.
3. Cost of living. Singapore is one of the most expensive cities in the world. Education , eating out regularly etc is not cheap
So to have your kind of lifestyle above even 200k is barely enough. Esp if you intend to plan for retirement
The things that are really expensive in singapore are:
1. Car ownership - easily $2k a month for an entry level japanese model
2. Condo rentals - upwards of $4k a month for family of four
3. Private/International school $3k to $5k a month per child
The rest are spread across a wide cost spectrum and you can choose what fits your lifestyle and budget.
People with weird lumps cant get someone to look at it before it turns into terminal cancer.
People with newborns cant get a doctor.
General healthcare collapse.
Rent and housing astronomical and still going up. If you're under 30 you're fucked.
Average house in many cities well out of reach for most people forever without significant gifts or inheritance.
As a benchmark, the median household income is just below 11k SGD per household per month. So above 200k should put you above the median and should be reasonably comfortable, provided you don't own a car, stay in HDB housing and eat out mainly in foodcourt or hawker centres. If you aspire to own a car, stay in landed property and eat in restaurants most days, then your income need to be way higher to be comfortable.
It just depends on how you want to live.
I’m low income and I manage to be pretty comfortable. My high income friends are comfortable too, they just have much much higher expenses and have to slum it when we meet up.
My idea of a good meal -> $30 at a cafe
Her idea of a good meal -> $500 fine dining with wine at some Michelin star restaurant.
Comfortable is subjective. As your income increases your idea of comfortable similarly increases.
>i've always dreamt of living in Singapore
Why? Singapore have nothing for comfort living.
Speaking of income, to maintain middle class lifestyle with kids you likely need to make $20,000+
Probably 2k per kid 1k for expenses 1k for tuition (im stupid and hopefully ur kids will be smarter) more if uw spoil ur kids and however much school fee is
before you ask about cost of living, you should find out what visa you are eligible to get here.
i’m an expat who makes $18k/mo living alone, and i feel like that’s adequate. that said, i also know locals who make $4k/mo and they also feel that’s adequate. it’s possible to make any salary work here, it just depends on what kind of lifestyle you’re looking for. if you want to live in a condo and go to cafes, bars, and restaurants you’re going to need to earn significantly more than if you’re fine living in government housing and eating at hawker centers everyday.
This. It really depends on your lifestyle. If you want kids, add easily $4-5K a month SGD to your expenses
Education for kids - sg government school for foreigners is 2k sgd a month. International schools are 4K sgd a month per kid…
Lol private school? Dont see how food, school etc can cost 4-5k for government school
OP mentioned upper-middle class lifestyle. So I did indeed calculated for private school!
Well median income in sg is only 5-6k.. so private school is considered upper class dy
Local here. Whats your typical week or weekend like? 18k would be glorious, but am glad i dont have to worry about rent
Most of my expenses go towards rent/utilities (usually around $3.5K/mo), restaurants/bars, and travel. I go out to eat and drink A LOT and spend recklessly when I do. Beyond that I live quite modestly - I rarely buy clothes, makeup, or other material items, don't have entertainment expenses, and try to take public transportation everywhere. In total I probably spend about $12-15K total every month.
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Nice meals in SG now start at $100 pp. if you want tasting menus or fancier places, 300++. Throw in some good booze (bottle of decent wine or sake each at these places? Or per pair?) you can quite easily hit $500 just for your own dinner. Do that once a week with a few $1-200 meals peppered here and there and poof thats maybe 4-5k a month. Drink as they described can be $300 just on cocktails. Go to a club and 1k each a night is quite easy even when going light (a bottle and maybe a dom each, and random shots in between). Club once a fortnight, and have nights out maybe twice a week, and poof thats another 4-5k. Just like that without thinking too hard, you can blow 10+k a month before necessities haha.
yup, exactly... those $30, 3oz cocktails really add up 
I have thus learnt to have drinking parties at home 😇
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Thankfully I stopped clubbing before my ability/willingness to spend that much in a night hit. So thats more like a once a year affair for me haha. But $100 isnt even fine dining imo, a random tanjong pagar restaurant with casual trendy vibes will get you there. Share a starter (25++/2) have a main (40++) and share a dessert (15++/2), and have one alcoholic drink (20++), and voila you’re at $100 😂
If you like good wine you should do corkage when you dine out. The markups are insane here. If you buy in bond and import you can easily save 30% off local retail pricing too. Then pay corkage or 1 for 1 and you get great wine at prices restaurants want to sell you cheap swill. Also lol at buying Dom in a club. At least cocktail bars there's some skill in the prep and infusion etc.
Usually in restaurants I only ever buy their cheapest wines (or second cheapest, depending on where the value is likely to be based on the establishment). Their best are usually crazily marked up, and the medium ranges tend to not be much better than the cheapest. In those cases, its usually just to get something decent for the food while giving me the convenience of not having to bring my own bottle. 1-for-1 where we can negotiate it for bigger nights. Steakhouses tend to be generous in accommodating us as long as we bring some good shit. Also, some good Chinese restaurants offer free corkage, and if you've not tried, its a great pairing. But ultimately, I have long since moved to hosting at home, so this isnt that relevant anymore. Invest in one or two proper wine fridges, and you've built your own wine cellar ;) And yes, I pay half or less than SG retail for my booze, which I am running out of shelf and storeroom space for come to think of it,..sigh. On Dom, yeah - but if you're opening champagne in a club you should know why you're doing it la. Clout, vibes, flex - whatever. As long as you know why you're spending that grand (I do think certain vintages of Dom are worth their retail value - partial to the '08, but might be because it was the first I tried haha). Anyway it was just an example of how quickly and easily you can rack bills up on FnB alone, if you don't fuss about budgeting or optimising value.
Yeah that's fair. I echo your comments about mostly doing stuff at home. Can open 4-5 good bottles with a few friends and have a way better time (plus no time limit). I love zi char for wine dinners. Have a few groups we do tastings with and often go to one for the free corkage. Only faff is needing to bring your own glasses. I only have a small fridge in my flat, but quite a lot stored in bond for the future.
most of my friends work in hospitality so it's quite common for us to take turns footing the bill, because we know eventually it'll even out. they're used to travelling the world and getting treated at nice restaurants, bars, and hotels, so even though it sounds privileged to the average person, we don't really think twice about meals the average person might reserve for special occasions.
They might not be comfortable in nice places? Once hung with a girl who was uncomfortable hanging in any bar or restaurant fancier than a pub. So we just ended up drinking at flower joints all the time 😂
Ah. Sounds about right. I do the same with a much lower budget. I guess the places where we each consider lavish differs and hence the price tag. I spend about 2k every month. May I further ask, on a typical reckless night. What kind of place or food do you get?
it’s usually going to multiple cocktail bars where drinks are $27-30 and buying rounds for my friends. the pours are smaller here than in the US so i have a bad habit of finishing drinks too quickly, plus i never have time to eat between work and going out so i’ll up ordering snacks at bars too, which adds up. a typical night of bar hopping will usually cost me around $300, and then usually we’ll end up at HDL or some other equally expensive supper place.
And here i thought in sg, we drink till our opponents drop. Haha. Thanks for sharing your little piece of expat life
Can I be your friend?? Hahaha!!!!
On a more serious note, I'd like to DM if you don't mind. I'm female, a foreigner as well and have some job related questions.
the $30 cocktails is Waldorf Hotel NYC Manhattan prices... I guess people conflate SG with the rest of SEA and then they freak out at the prices of hotels and things.
no lie that's still kinda insane, sis
Do you mind if I asked what you do for a living?
You spend close to 8k+ on food/drinks every month? Without any other spendings like cloths/entertainment... I am not sure how you hit 12-15k lol.
locals usually don’t have to pay rent, so a foreigner/expat would have to earn substantially more ($2-4k) than a local to have the same standard of living.
We do make mortgage payments though.. but it is usually less than rental rates especially now
i have an upcoming BTO ($450k) and my 25 year HDB loan can be fully paid off with CPF even at my current salary. it’s way more affordable than renting an entire HDB.
Provided can get BTO. Resale prices are crazy nowadays. Unless don't mind Jurong West and Yew Tee or lease less than 60 years. If got 3 kids need 3 bedroom, you can check how many 4/5 rooms resale in the whole Singapore within 450k.
of course resale will be more expensive than BTO? but even resales aren't that unaffordable when you adjust expectations. you can easily find 4-room flats with >70 year lease for under $600k if you filter on PropertyGuru. mortgage will still be way cheaper than rental. 4-room flat with 74 years lease, 8min walk from Admiralty MRT, $520k: [https://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/hdb-for-sale-666-woodlands-ring-road-25199562](https://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/hdb-for-sale-666-woodlands-ring-road-25199562)
Yup isn't it that's what I mentioned. As long as don't mind Yew Tee/ Admiralty north area and Jurong West then maybe can get la But the rest of regions 4 room below 500k? Forget it.
Most people can't have their cake and eat it too. That's reality. Even if you migrate, a good area will cost a bomb relative to the country's currency
But I am not complaining though? And I didn't say it's not fair. So not sure why you have the impression i want to have cake and eat it? I didn't say migrate too. I am just realistically saying in response to his comment that there are people who can't get BTO and just have to be thrifty to survive.
OP stated they want to have kids and live an upper middle class life, not squashed in a tiny apartment and eating the cheapest hawker meals. OP should read what is considered upper middle class in US cities, look up the one for NYC and multiply by 4. - Housing for non-citizens, a decent size condo would be a couple million to buy, $4-5k in rental per month - Education for non-citizen kids, at least $20k per year - Car - $100k for 10 years for an average car, not including road tax, running costs That's just the basics, not including food, monthly bills...
Hey there what do you work as,and how many years of experience do you have to reach that level in your job
I've worked in advertising for 12 years, minus a gap year.
Would be great if you could share more details like what your role is and how you landed a job here. S$18k per month sounds like your role must be pretty high up the corporate ladder (I’m assuming upwards of senior manager / director) in order to earn that much.
I'd prefer not to share specific details about the role as this is my private Reddit account and I know some of my coworkers frequent this sub, but I'm the head of a department at a global creative agency. I was headhunted from my last agency in the US to help my company shore up their abilities in this department, as it's quite hard to find local talent capable of thinking outside the box at this level of leadership. To be honest this kind of salary is quite common in my industry, especially if you're good at what you do (which, to be frank, I am). I actually took a 45% pay cut to move here, and I'm pretty sure male colleagues at my level are paid more than me.
18k including bonuses so are we talking 220k? Cos bonuses make a big difference haha. I agree that sounds low for a department head in a global creative (publicis? Haha) if I’m being honest
Unfortunately I don't think there'll be any bonuses in my future until we can get some new business wins  But if for some reason we have a good year any bonuses will be on top of my salary.
Thanks for sharing! I was just curious, what line of work are you in?
just curious, what do you do for a living?
Love the username 😂
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There is a saying that wealth is like saltwater , the more you consume the more thirsty you. Just spend within your means and everything is gonna be fine
Nah, you need rent and childcare no amount frugality and living within your means is going to help. The reality is that for foreigners without subsidies you need to earn a lot to survive. OP: -2 bed apartment minimum $4000 a month, more like 5-6k (and 3x that for landed). -childcare minimum $1500 a month, more like 2k -transport $200-500 -health insurance $200-500 per person (plus out if pocket for lower insurance covers). -groceries are expensive, minimum $1000 for a small family, could easily double that. -then you have to save for your tax (it's not deducted before being paid.) -utilities $150-250 a month With 1 child, living frugally I can't get my monthly costs below 9k. I wouldn't choose to move to SG for less than 14k. Everything in SG is expensive, even 'little things' like a yoga class cost 2x, and there isn't really much to do that doesn't cost money.
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Very useless answer, not sure why it’s upvoted. There’s a standard of living amount. Minimum for rent can be calculated, food too. You can’t consume less than the minimum or you die, not everything will be fine.
Minimum $20K but better lifestyle $25-30K per month. Just because of the kids. International school is $20-50K per year, per child. (Local school not really possible for foreigners, but even that costs $10-20K per year for non-ASEAN international student fees) Housing is the next biggest expense. $3-6K per month minimum for a 3 bed condo. But some Expats pay $10-20K per month. International groceries probably $2K per month minimum for a family of 4-5. Transport minimum $500 per month for public transport & taxis. $2-3K per month for a car. Insurance can easily be $1000 per month. Often more. Foreigners aren’t eligible for subsidised healthcare or hospital stays. You’ll want to go away on holidays. Even a cheap holiday in SEA can easily be $2-6K for a family of 4 for a week. Plus factor in flights back to Canada every year.
Almost forgot - you will want to make sure you have retirement savings - as you’re not eligible for CPF (unless Citizen or PR). Plus the usual clothing (more expensive than Canada / USA), dining out (can be cheap hawkers to fine dining but even a mid-priced meal is $100-200 for like sushi or pizza for a family of 4. More with alcohol).
What do you mean by local school not really possible for foreigners?
Entry to local school is not automatic for foreigners. There is a cap of about 5% of student population allowed to be international students. So there are few places available to nonSC/PR. For P1 entry is via a ballot system, with limited places available compared to number of applicants. For entry for other year levels, students must sit the AEIS exam, which is highly competitive. MOE only accepts the very best students via AEIS.
It really depends on visa issues frankly. Most foreigners here have to send their kids to international schools and school fees itself is more than 40k per year per kid Once that is solved, the amount needed becomes much more flexible. Other big cost to consider in Singapore are housing and transport Housing: how big of a place do you need? Most live in public housing called HDBs. Can you rent in a HDB instead of a condo? Transport: cars are very very very expensive. Can you live without one? Private apartment, car or ride share everywhere, international school, international travel then for a family of 4 to be comfortable will be about 400k annual household income Very comfortable probably need more than that Many things in Singapore are priced based on visa. You cannot look at median household income for locals to judge how much you will need as a foreigner for a upper middle class lifestyle
> Transport: cars are very very very expensive. Can you live without one? yes. how much for international to rent a townhouse? private school is not a problem. i'd put my kids in a private school in Canada anyway, which costs around the same.
Given the small size of the country, less than 10% of household live in a landed property. \~12k per month for a rental of terraced house (I believe this is the closest equivalent of a townhouse) in a more central location. The fact that you are not local will impact you more if you want to rent HDBs (the public housing). If you are renting a landed house, it shouldn't matter. Maybe they will start at a higher asking price but renting here always involves negotiating. So research and don't be embarrassed to haggle. PropertyGuru is the site most use so it'll be good for your research
thank you
Also you will most likely never be able to buy the property. There is a 60% foreigner tax for property purchase. Unless you get permanent residency (very difficult for Canandian) or get citizenship (even harder and involves giving up your canadian citizenship)
Why is it difficult for a Canadian to get PR here?
> involves giving up your canadian citizenship dont care about that at all
Somebody downvoted you just for saying "thank you" LOL. This is also what you need to be prepared for in Singapore, lots of negativity from some people for no valid reason. And I'm sure I'll also be downvoted for saying that but I don't care. To your question, think you also need to be clearer if you are asking about month-to-month living comfortable, and/or medium to long term savings and comfort. The dollar examples you give sound like medium to longer term goals?
Yeah I upvoted them to try and bring it back up lol. They are being downvoted in so many comments for no reason. So far they have not been rude or anything, just asking questions
Yes me too. This sub can be a bit like that sometimes, unfortunately. I see lots of their other comments also downvoted for no obvious reason. This whole sub is supposed to be where people can safely ask questions and they shouldn't be downvoted for doing so. And I don't understand someone's thought process of "someone wrote thank you, so I will downvote it" LOL.
\*cough\* townhouse??? I guess OP really has no idea what it's like in SG. The rental would be about that of a brownstone in NYC... there aren't any in central locations ... 12k would get you a condo though, maybe 1000sq ft?
Singapore has a lot less land than Canada. You'll need much more than 200k pa if you prefer to live on any type of landed property including townhouses (we call them terraced houses). With landed property, you'll need a car or cab often as they are usually less accessible via public transport. Rentals are S$8,000 and up depending on location, size etc.
They might have more land, but people want to live near US border where it is warmer.
Yes and it's still A LOT MORE land than us. Even in downtown Toronto where I used to live, there's landed housing. Just to give you a scale difference. The entire area of Greater Toronto is 7.4km2 -- 10 times the size of Singapore with the same 6m population. And I've not even considered any other city in Canada.
Yeah. I lived in Ottawa (the capital city) with my husband, and it is nearly 4 times bigger than Singapore. Ottawa has a population of what, 990k people?
A townhouse is probably going to cost you more than $8k a month. A cheap and very old townhouse, maybe $6.5k onwards. An upper middle-class kinda townhouse? Probably $15k.
Grass greener on the other side, many Singaporeans would wanna trade with you ur Canadian citizenship
I’m one of them…I would give up SG citizenship for any western country citizenship in a heartbeat. Wish I could trade with OP
One of our bros who figured he wouldn't make it big here, made his way over there, damn happy life with kids n nature
Curious though. Why? I moved to Australia for work. But will never consider giving up my Singapore citizenship. Our passport is too strong to give up. Do you think holding a different coloured passport makes white? 😅 Ultimately you’ll still be second class citizen in a western country.
Its not about being white, Its that these countries are legitmately nicer to live in if you are alternative Heck, even as someone in conventional STEM, the stuff I want to pursue, that would be normal elsewhere, is very alternative and underground lol Thats how conformative singapore is
As a European potentially considering moving to Singapore, I would love to know why you say so. Open to different perspectives. The salaries people mention in this post (200-400k SGD) just don't really exist in Europe, unless you're the CEO of a multinational company or the top 0.1% of earners. You need way less to live comfortably in Europe, so I'm quite confused. 400k SGD is around 275k Euros, which is insane. If Singapore offers those salaries (and much lower taxes) that would be the dream.
I think many of us dream of work life balance and not living life in a pressure cooker Those salaries are rare here too but they do exist. Singapore is one of the highest labour cost in Asia. If you can get one of these jobs, grind and save and exit. Not a bad plan. It’s like US-lite In return, any resemblances of WLB is shot. Even for jobs that do not pay this much, it is a very capitalist country. For the jobs that pay this much, everyone is trying theirs very best to not lose the job (not easy to find again) so they are hustling all the time. As a personal example, I am burnt the fuck out and feel like I’m on survival mode all the time. I cant find another job that pays what my current does. I’ve had many LinkedIn inmails and on the first call, I’ve already maxed out of their pay range. So I’m sticking it out and trying to max out my retirement savings best as I can Despite the high salary, I still live in the public housing that most of us live in. A condo of a proper size still feels like a pipedream. Because the high salary wasn’t always high, Singapore has developed over the years and salaries are finally catching up
Thanks for the detailed reply. Excuse my naive question, but how many hours a week would you say you "need" to work in order to keep your job? The productivity per hour decreases significantly after a certain threshold is reached leading to diminishing returns and in the long term the effects of burnout might outweigh the extra productivity. Is this just about showing "face time" regardless of output in order not to lose your job? How quickly do you think you would lose your job if you were to work a European-style 40 hour week? As I said I'm just curious as I consider Singapore as a successful country and am also considering moving there. I've also seen people working long hours just because they "think" it looks good but then it doesn't always affect promotions (this may be company dependent of course) and when it's time to make redundancies I also don't think it affects your chances of being included. So I don't always get it, it's more like they do it to somewhat wash away some sense of guilt for not doing enough. I don't know how to describe it. That's from my experience of course but cannot speak for the Singapore companies.
My company pays us a lot of lip service about how there’s no requirement to work more than our 40 and that we have a lot of flexibility. It’s all true, kinda but if I strictly stayed within my lane and only worked those hours I can see myself stretching it out for 6 months before I’ll be done for. Most of the jobs at this pay range are regional roles from MNCs (usually US tech or finance). So there’s expectations to work with HQ, meaning working early mornings and late night very often. I find it hard for the brain to truly switch off. Some people probably have perfected how to do this. There are companies with expectations to “show” you’re working but not so much at my company. The expectation is only on results. They will says “have a great vacation” or “get well soon” (even for surgeries) but deadline and level of expected results never change. I can’t remember a vacation where I didn’t bring my laptop or I didn’t log on for something. I’m not even in a very senior position. Now it sounds like I’m ranting 😂 You’re maybe also right that I could probably scale back but that’s the anxiety the system creates I suppose. Someone else wants my job and it’s not so easy for me to find another job so I push myself for results ETA my husband and I are aiming to save and retire in Europe. But I’m very sure we’ll also miss the efficiency of Singapore
I see, at least they're aware that WLB is a good thing. Out of curiosity, how confident you are that you'll be booted in 6 months if you work a solid 40 hour week? Have you seen it happen to colleagues or is it just based on fear? Maybe you're totally right, I'm not saying anything as I don't know the environment, I'm just asking to probe this point. I probably don't earn as much as you do, but here in the UK I still earn a very good salary for my level of seniority and above many of my peers. I've always set boundaries from the beginning and refused to do overtime, and never had a problem with it. I find that if other colleagues accepted longer hours at the beginning, then it just became expected of them. They think they look better but I don't think they do. It's like, if the boss sees that I respect my time they think twice before asking me for extra work, and if I say I'll do it tomorrow they never push back. I've had my share of promotions along the way without issues, as my work quality was good, and I was also made redundant once, but I'm still pretty confident that that had nothing to do with the hours, in fact the start-up was going donwhill and there was very little work left to do to even fill the 40 hours. Overtime work is definitely prevalent in a number of industries in the UK too (though maybe not as much as in the US) but from my anecdotal experience I found that it's you that need to set the bar for yourself, and often people will respect you if they see you respect your free time. At least that's my experience, but your mileage may vary. Maybe I've just been lucky so far, maybe I'm not senior enough for people to care, who knows
In theory I agree with everything you said. But in practice I think there is a bit more fear and anxiety here due to lack of employee protection like in Europe. Could I last more than 6 months? Very possible but do I want to test it? I'm not so sure. Have I seen people being let go easily in my company, yes. Singapore has the least amount of employee protection in Asia, giving employees less leverage. There is no bar for termination. Basically an employer only needs to give notice (usually 1 month). Employees are scared to set boundaries early as probation periods are 3 months and no reason is needed other than it didn't work out to be let go during probation. You don't even need to pay for the notice period. So in practice, employees tend to go above and beyond during probation and inevitably set the tone in that direction This is by design and has allowed Singapore to prosper. It is employer friendly in tax as well as agility to mould the workforce. Singaporeans have also not really pushed back due to a combination of leaning towards being more financially driven and viewing confucius principles of being hardworking highly It really is US-lite in work culture and labour protection. Where it's different is that there are many social safety nets for locals (foreigners are sadly on their own) should they lose their jobs. You will not need to be too worried about basic survival needs, thriving is another matter
I see, that makes sense regarding lack of employee protection. Yes that probably explains everything then. My guess though is that even in Europe someone making €300k per year would not have as many protections as the average employee on <100k so it may not be that different in that regard, but I'm not so sure to be honest. Healthcare and education is basically next to free though, and even in the UK it is government subsidised if you're a local student. The only thing I would say is that even here often the probation period is 3 months, but hiring is very expensive (recruiter fees are 20% of the first year salary) so I wouldn't say that companies let people go at the blink of an eye during probation unless it is really not working, but letting people go for not working regular overtime is not common unless you work in an environment where overtime is expected from your contract and compensated accordingly. I'm sure some companies might do, but not one I'd want to work for. In some industries like banking you're often asked to sign an [opt-out agreement](https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/weekly-maximum-working-hours-and-opting-out) which is legally required if you regularly work more than 48 hours a week. But if you sign that then there is no surprise, and you know what you're getting yourself into. But outside banking it's not common to sign one based on my knowledge. I didn't know that Singapore has the least amount of employee protection in Asia though, that's interesting, I'll look into this a bit more. Thanks a lot for all the info.
In europe you get to do way more shit that you cant in singapore and the pace of life is generally better Just look how the art scene died in like just 10 years, we went from being at the tip of mandopop and satire with the noose to now basically nothing.Seriously, the only real modern singaporean artistes I can lidt down are like The Willows and Yung Raja (really cool rapper do a lil bit like kendrick iirc?)
In europe you get to do way more shit that you cant in singapore and the pace of life is generally better Just look how the art scene died in like just 10 years, we went from being at the tip of mandopop and satire with the noose to now basically nothing.Seriously, the only real modern singaporean artistes I can lidt down are like The Willows and Yung Raja (really cool rapper tho a lil bit like kendrick iirc?)
You can’t compare a European salary to Singapore or really any non-Socialist country. Over my career, Singapore is likely one of best place in the world to earn money after the US. The cost of living is high but the low taxes (if you aren’t American) easily make up for it. 400K SGD is a senior level position at a multinational. If you’re a higher level non-executive total salary after bonuses can easily reach $600-800K+ SGD. IMO, Singapore offers a better balanced lifestyle compared to the US for vacation, sick time, holidays, and work hours along with decent pay. But Singapore lacks the social safety nets, pensions, medical, parental leave, worker protections, etc of Europe.
I wouldn't really call Europe "socialist" to be honest, especially nowadays. Yes some countries like in Scandinavia might have better welfare and some like the UK might be closer to the US in some regards, but none of them are really socialist in my view. Anyway, you raise an interesting point, hence why I didn't understand why people would immediately swap Singapore for Europe or any Western country.
Fair, my exposure was working in Sweden which felt pretty socialist.
lol nope. Living situation in Canada is getting worse and worse. Unaffordable housing and uncontrolled immigration. Go to canada housing subreddit and you will see. I’ll choose Singapore any day https://youtu.be/Rn338keGUrE?si=r1mh_DeJqiQv7maY
True it's no longer the great place of the 90s
Jack Ma say he’s earned enough to live comfortably.
hahaha
Firstly, you will need to get a working visa to get into the country. Most likely you will be looking at Employment Pass but the recent rules and point system has made it even harder to get one. Check them out before considering. Second, if you can get a PR, it would help heaps to get a good home for your family. Best if become a citizen as landed is only for Singaporeans. With PR, the best you can get is 2nd hand HDB flats and condo. EPs only condo. It would cost you around SGD 3,000 - 5,000 per month before any utilities. Third, to live comfortably after putting away 20% mandatory monthly for your CPF, you would need SGD $10,000/month and above. Some of the comments below have valid points of the amount you need per month just for rental of the entire unit of 3 - 4 rooms per unit. Expenses are subjective as you will really need to be frugal since most restaurants and services does have mandatory 9% GST. Lastly, unlike Canada whereby you go around with cars as a necessity, cars in Singapore are basically luxury and privileges that only last you 10 years max before needing to scrap it and can cost 1/4 of most HDB flats. Most locals go around with buses and MRT. In short, there are additional factors other than just how much money you need but can you bare with some of the unexpected difficulties and restrictions as a foreigner in Singapore that need to be taken into consideration.
20k monthly
ok thanks
as a local 4 k is sufficient.
i dont want to be average. i grew up poor and felt great shame in school. dont want that for my kiddos.
jia you!!!! of cos more money is good. im just saying for myself 4K is sufficient.
i love the fusion of chinese culture. feels like a better version of hong kong.
I know people who earn 15k a month that says it's not enough And there's people who can raise a big family on 4k a month It depends on what you want
The thing is if you’re not very well off, the government basically settles all your fees for your kids including higher education (most kinds they can do well in, more for STEM tho tbf). So all you need to pay for yourself is housing (you can fit a surprising amount of kids in a room with bunk beds) and food (shop at ntuc, cook often), and so just 4k can go a pretty long way. But thats not upper middle class per what OP wants la hahha
Comfortably is very subjective. You mentioned no car so that brings down your sum needed significantly since public transport is very affordable here. Food wise I don’t see anything above, but if you go local and eat at coffee shops, it can be very affordable as well. Also mentioned above is education for 2 (or more?) kids in international school, this will be your major expense. Rental if you can do with a 3 bedroom public housing that’s about 3k per month. Slightly cheaper than a condominium. For the above specs, personally I estimate you will need about 150k, but with minimal retirement savings.
But they want to stay in landed so gg already. Sure need min 200k cos landed up the cost for everything. Usually not close to public transport, need car or grab everywhere. Cleaner will be more ex cos larger area. Utilities also higher etc etc etc The 200k is also before leisure/entertainment or any saving for retirement
If want to rent landed and live the landed lifestyle (aka buy a car, hire cleaner/gardener), it's more like 500k per annum income minimally.
Singaporean/PR (< $10k per month can live nice) Foreigner (Min $20k pm to survive as a couple) 1. Cant buy 4 or 5 room HDB flats for $500k locals enjoy 2. No CPF or pension for you 3. No additional CPF contribution from employer 4. Can only buy condo (starting $1million) 5. Pay 60% tax on property (eg $1.6m for 1m 2 room flat) 6. Pay higher school/college fees than locals 7. No Climate vouchers for household items 8. No monetary support during calamities like Covid 9. Can’t change jobs/pursue passion at will without new EP provided employer has quota left to hire foreigners 10. No tax relief if parents living with or near (5.5k to 9k) 11. No tax relief of $2k for non working spouse 12. No qualifying child relief of $4k 13. No Course fee relief of $5.5k to upskill yourself 14. No MediShield/MediCare/MediFund for healthcare 15. No pathway/transparent point system for PR Takeaway, if you get paid even +$6k more than a local for same job, same role and same seniority in a company, don’t drift thinking you are privileged and the hiring manager is partial to you. They are only attempting to ensure you can live a bare minimum life and survive while you contribute to nation development with unique skills that Singapore & its people need for their growth. Singapore government is rightly amazing in this aspect of taking care of its people and wellbeing which it should. So as a foreigner, if your aim is to get married, have a kid, buy a home, possibly have a car and live the fundamental aspects of life for settling, take all these into consideration while deciding to bring/start a family, and DD & verify yourself the numbers above as they may have evolved over years. So you can aim for Singapore for its standard of living. Alternatively there are places like UK, US & Australia that recognises that the next decade of growth for a country and its people will come from ‘mid level’ foreign talents to permanently settle alongside locals, start a family and contribute in strengthening with new age skills as AI and climate change evolves rapidly.
Condos no longer start at a million. Assuming OP wants a 3 bedder to house 2 kids long term, thats what, 1100 square feet minimum to be comfortably sized? Assume you go to somewhere cheaper and older like katong, maybe 1500psf. Thats 1.7m assuming OP can avoid the 60% foreigner tax. OP asked about townhouses (equivalent of an inter terrace). Those with some basic modernisation start at 3m or so.
In 2023 the median salary is about 5-6k per month for Singaporean. Expat is easily double so upper middle class livelihood would be about 13-16k per month and add about 3-5% per year to account inflation.
Which part of Canada do you come from?
Right now in Victoria BC.
Victoria is lovely. I visited when I was living in Vancouver for a few years. Remembered my drive to Tofino. Breathtaking. Ultimately traded all that & moved back to Asia because well, to put it bluntly - Canada, BC specifically is fucked for the next decade. High unemployment, depressed wages, foreign money, high immigration (not quality immigrants) driving high property and drugs. There is no middle class and social economic mobility is dead. You’re welcome to come make your pot of gold in SG.
nailed it.
if I were a foreigner, Singapore will feel like the right place to go especially if you have a profession that is well sought after. Especially if you are young and adaptable, because of the lower tax bracket. It will feel good for a few years, then you can evaluate after that.
not young anymore. and wont be if i ever do pull the trigger.
Do you mind sharing how much you roughly make in Canada? And what industry? It might give a better idea of what range you should be looking at for a similar life here.
I've heard good things about income-generating ETFs with monthly payouts in Canada so that could help with monthly costs. The dividends here don't pay as much. Rental would make up the bulk of your expenses which I hear is the same in Canada and it'll be an apartment. Actually owning an apartment would be exorbitant. As most answers have figured out the costs for you, I'd like you to consider the weather. While you can sort out the finances, actually breathing the average 26-31 Celsius daily is a different matter. Based on what Google tells me, it's a huge jump from Canada.
i hate the cold.
Have you ever stayed here long term? Forget about the financial aspect. The pace is quite fast and if you're not used to it, it can stress you out.
Are you sure you want to raise kids here.. the education system is very stressful. There is a strong tuition culture here. It's a rat race. It's not fun from secondary school onwards. The pros are that the kids can learn other languages (not sure about private schs but in public sch we can learn another language separately - Chinese Malay Tamil as a mother tongue), and there is world class uni. Source: coming from someone who grew up here. Parents had the chance to immigrate to Canada but chose not to. I have cousins in Canada. It seems that they have an easier life and still manage to go to top unis there. There is also more nature and places to explore/travel to. Sg is really a little red dot, it keeps you in a comfortable bubble but limits a person's view of the world as well
You do know if a foreigner comes working here, odds are they will be in international school which is closer to foreign Western countries than SG standards right
Hahaha then I wonder what's the point.... Cos if like that it's the same as attending school in western country... Esp since op mentioned he/she is coming over with the purpose of raising kids
This. Absolutely wild to read someone from NA/Europe dreaming to come to SG to raise their kids. The opposite was true for us: now we got kids we moved back to our home country. Virtually all other couples we know of that did similarly did so because of the reasons you stipulate.
Very subjective. Upper middle suggests private flat (not public housing) plus car. If 2 kids (in local school) I would say S$400,000. Our family lives in public housing. We spend about $180,000 a year - kids in local school, no tuition. We live and eat (!) well. No pension so must also save for retirement…
Thanks.
Wow i’m actually surprised ar how you’re hitting 180k spend in that case though!
To live here you need a job, and they're only allowed to hire foreigners if they meet certain criteria. Search for EP requirements to find out if you meet them. If not on an EP there are a couple of other visas if you can invest a lot (like a million) or start a business. If you can't do one of those things, you can't move to Singapore.
well i've started a few businesses here in Canada succesfully
And miss out on Canadian politeness? I met this Singaporean dude who spent 5+ years in Canada and when back, he's always reminiscing about how polite ppl are in Canada. Politeness is not really big in everyday life in Singapore.
it's all fake shit. people here are assholes.
Having lived in 6 countries: there's assholes everywhere. And if you think everyone is an asshole, well...
We get these questions a lot. If you got 2 kids and live in a condo at a decent location, your expenses for just housing plus international school will be 150k a year. As a single, you could get by cheaply if you rent just a room, take MRT and eat hawker food. Costs go up significantly when you decide to rent a whole unit and/or have kids When I first moved to Singapore 10 yrs ago, I was on 5-6k a month, but it was just sufficient for me renting a room (back then rent was a lot more affordable). As an expat family w 2 kids living very comfortably (going to restaurants to eat a few times a week, being able to take grab liberally) with also savings for retirement, reckon you would want 300k combined at least. Less than that, you would make some sacrifices & still save for retirement.
Why is it called hawker?
They are non restaurant food stalls.
Hawkers - imagine Asian street food vendors who each specialise in just one type of tasty food -but many many of them arranged together in one convenient place. That’s a hawker center Plus it’s safe, regulated and still relatively cheap compared to restaurants (although prices have gone up up a lot over the years)
Just translate it as food court without aircon. It's very common in Singapore.
sounds awesome
Probably about 360k per annum all inclusive
pricey
Might need to clarify you’re talking costs and not income..I hope HAHA
folks over emphasize on the monthly rather than the initial cap, id say 2-4mln for upper middle
i feel 10k minimum
Hahah, just curious why do you want to leave Canada? 10 years ago Canada was where I wanted to live in
basically no health care. high taxes. everyone wants to be a realtor or work for government. culture is basically crab mentality and going after people who are better than you. this starts in grade school. they axed the gifted programs a few years ago cause it made the regular kids feel bad or something. now they've gotten rid of grades until grade 11 or 12. everyone from new moms to old people who have lumps can't find a doctor in time because there are none. also increasing taxes going after "rich" people, where rich is anyone who is not middle class.
interesting, I've been to vancouver many years ago to visit relatives that immigrated there and it was a great place. Beautiful nature. They also seemed to attract a lot of immigrants in skilled work. But quality of life there has since dropped and everyone in canada seems to want out.
because the smart ones know the ship is going down and the fundamentals are such that it's very hard to right the ship.
upper middle 200kish SGD would be decent
Thank you.
20k a month boom. Not saying you cant live without 3k+ but stress free would be 20k monthly for me minimum.
a singaporean culture necessities you comparing and comparing and comparing till you die. we are a ultra capitalist country. you don't want your kids to feel poor like you were when growing up? please, don't move to Singapore. the poverty mind set will be entrenched for generations to come. everyone here thinks of money money money. just go to sgexams subreddit to figure out why do kids subject themselves to 24 seven studying? coz they enjoy the intellectual stimulation? nope, cos they are subject to the same shit fear of living a life of inadequacy. You think the top notch kids want to get into public service coz they are dying to serve the nation? Please read the subreddit. they all want the security and prestige of being a scholar.
I feel at least 6k will be comfortable but having at least one fixed asset like property. I feel car is a liability and depreciate but it provides the necessity of having convenient for transportation and other needs for usage of vehicle. But the amount is sufficient for a single. I am currently earning 3.5k, bring home 2.8k. I won't say this amount is inadequate but it does not provide me with flexibility to spend or reduction of financial liability.
6k is only for SC/PR. No chance 6k is enough as a foreigner especially with family.
Exactly. I have one kid, cheapest condo I could find. Cook at home, shop at giant, cheap health insurance, and my minimum minimum monthly is 9k.
9k might still be doable when your kid is still a preschooler - send him/her to local school, maybe have one enrichment class. But everything changes once they go to primary school and unfortunately don’t get a place in local school 🥶
Yeh exactly. I'd not want live here for less than 14k as a foreigner
Right 6k is a comfortable number I think so. Anything more I think the job might be too stressful, below this number there is not ideally as much wriggle room financially :/
British ex-PR here. $150k was not enough, and that was living in HDB. You’re going to need upwards of $200k.
ok thanks
1. Opposite weather: You need to ask yourself if you like the weather in Singapore. Unlike Canada that has long and cold winter Singapore is the complete opposite with extremely hot & humid weather meaning you will sweat & feel sticky most of the time. 2. High cost of living : Unless you can afford a house here I don't recommend that you come here. Average rental price has doubled after the COVID pandemic and it is not surprising that you must prepare at least SGD 4-5k monthly rent just for one-bedder in a condominium. Landlords are well-known to be greedy and may jack-up the rental price without notice. 3. Job finding : You need to find a high-paying job at least 5 digits in local currency to be qualified as an expat. 4. Density of Singapore : Unlike Canada Singapore is an island with a high population density. Everywhere you go especially on weekends will be packed with people. Your house or room will certainly be much smaller than you expect. 5. High living expenses : Basic necessities like electricity & water & food will be much higher than neighbouring countries. 6. Raising kids & education in Singapore is extremely tough : Again basic necessities like milk powder & diapers are expensive. Sure Singapore had one of the better education systems but it's tough & competitive so you will need to prepare your kids from young age to be prepared for exams & they will undergo tremendous stress. That's just some of my thoughts. Feel free to ask if you have any questions.
It really depends on the definition of living comfortably.. I know friends who earns $20K per month and yet still complaining about not having enough. While I know some who earns just enough and happy with their lives.
It depends on the mindset and also your lifestyle. $10k a month without kids and you can live a middle upper class lifestyle. The problem with having kids is that in Singapore, there is still an Asian mum mindset and enrolling your kids in various hobby classes (ballet, piano, taekwondo etc) can be expensive. Not to mention the yearly holiday trips abroad which can easily be $3000 per pax.
You should earn 20K at least
Expat on $500k with a family of four. Lifestyle is somewhat comparable to Australia on $350k because: 1) Cars are so expensive 2) School fees are ridiculous (school bus is $3.5k per child per year - the cost of a car partially offsets this). 3) Wife can’t work on EP - so family income is $100k lower (at least now you can apply for one pass if over income threshold) 4) Rent is insane - unfortunately we had to lock in a small 3bdrm apartment for 2 years at the market peak. I assumed what I saved in tax would be offset by a higher cost of living, and judging by how much we save & invest pre-Singapore and now, that’s broadly held true. We love living in Singapore - but don’t count on banking the tax saving.
100k / 200k for how long? Per year? Yes. Forever? U gotta pump up those rookie numbers
$100k SGD p.a ? What do you think SG is? Buffalo NY? You are wayyyy off... Not with kids, not even in Buffalo NY ... you could swing it in Baltimore where $100k would put you in the top percentile but in SG with a family, you will be scraping by. As a former SGer, I know I'd definitely be on the struggle bus with the same salary I have here. Edit: I literally cannot afford the rental on my own HDB apartment in SG!
wow what do u work as 18k is crazy
That's 6 times higher than typical singapore graduates. I wish I could get 3/9 of 18k.
it depends, things are way more expensive for foreigners here
I would assume upper middle class would be living in at least a condominium. I would say minimum 20k a month for combined income. Since 10k a month is roughly top 20% of Singaporeans. If you’re of Chinese ethnicity it would be much easier to secure PR and citizenship. If you’re not, good luck. Hopefully you marry a local.
Well, for starters, cars here are well beyond 200k. If you want to live comfortably here (enough to have car, house, savings, travels) your annual income shld exceed 200k if you have a family. We are the most expensive city in the world for a reason.
Dont care for a car in a place like Singapore.
So it largely depends on your lifestyle. I earn about $14k a month and I live by myself. I spend about $5k a month and I’m able to save / invest the rest.
Bangladeshi PR living in SG here, my father earns 10K monthly and has 2 kids (including me) and still struggled to pay for both our school fees. i’m currently working so it’s a little relief for my father. but if you’re talking about comfort i’d easily say 20K because anything below 15K definitely doesn’t cut it.
Individual wise upper middle would be closer to 300 a year. HH wise, would be closer to half a mm and above a year
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It really depends on how you live and what you perceive as “essential”. The fastest way to immigration would be to marry a Singaporean citizen. Full stop 😂
2 billion dollars
If you are raising kids, you have to assume at least $25k SGD per kid. As an expat the ability to get into local schools is extremely limited by quota, so you will almost def have to contaminate schools. And $25k/year is on the low end. 3br condo rental will run at least $6k a month. So with the schools, assuming two kids, you are already at $10k/month without any food, transport, holidays, extra curricular, etc. Expats have to pay a min 15% tax on income. You’re looking at $20k per month bare minimum for a middle class lifestyle. Currently costs around $100k just for the permission to buy a car, and the car itself will also be very expensive. Upper middle class? Min $30k/month I would say.
More than in Canada for sure
You need to define upper middle income lifestyle dude 1. So probably no hdb then. Average 3BR condo approx 1.5m depending on location 2. Lifestyle wise you would want a Car. A average Camry cost like 250k. Better car like bmw would cost 3-400k. 3. Cost of living. Singapore is one of the most expensive cities in the world. Education , eating out regularly etc is not cheap So to have your kind of lifestyle above even 200k is barely enough. Esp if you intend to plan for retirement
The things that are really expensive in singapore are: 1. Car ownership - easily $2k a month for an entry level japanese model 2. Condo rentals - upwards of $4k a month for family of four 3. Private/International school $3k to $5k a month per child The rest are spread across a wide cost spectrum and you can choose what fits your lifestyle and budget.
5m
Why do you want to stay in Singapore? I thot Canada is a better country to stay?
Canada has gone downhill significantly in the last 5-10 years and it's getting worse.
Are you a Caucasian or Asian or whatever race? Is there racist problem in Canada?
> Is there racist problem in Canada? yes but people are good at hiding it
Going downhill in what sense?
People with weird lumps cant get someone to look at it before it turns into terminal cancer. People with newborns cant get a doctor. General healthcare collapse. Rent and housing astronomical and still going up. If you're under 30 you're fucked. Average house in many cities well out of reach for most people forever without significant gifts or inheritance.
Don’t forgot the 10% service charge + 9%gst when you dine in restaurant
whoa.
As a benchmark, the median household income is just below 11k SGD per household per month. So above 200k should put you above the median and should be reasonably comfortable, provided you don't own a car, stay in HDB housing and eat out mainly in foodcourt or hawker centres. If you aspire to own a car, stay in landed property and eat in restaurants most days, then your income need to be way higher to be comfortable.
It just depends on how you want to live. I’m low income and I manage to be pretty comfortable. My high income friends are comfortable too, they just have much much higher expenses and have to slum it when we meet up. My idea of a good meal -> $30 at a cafe Her idea of a good meal -> $500 fine dining with wine at some Michelin star restaurant. Comfortable is subjective. As your income increases your idea of comfortable similarly increases.
>i've always dreamt of living in Singapore Why? Singapore have nothing for comfort living. Speaking of income, to maintain middle class lifestyle with kids you likely need to make $20,000+
Probably 2k per kid 1k for expenses 1k for tuition (im stupid and hopefully ur kids will be smarter) more if uw spoil ur kids and however much school fee is
I think it would be much more efficient if you list down what kind of luxuries you need for a comfortable upper middle class lifestyle. 😉
I lived pretty decently with S$7000/month. Travelled almost every month. Supported my family in my home country and had good food!