Same thing happened with my co-worker. Earns \~40% more in the US in the exact same role, pays lower taxes and has cheaper rent. We get shafted up north
My brother said same thing. Knee pain that ended up being rare cancer and he lived with my mom now, broke. Cousin got pregnant some pre existing condition that app her fam doc had told her when she was younger but she hadn’t know about meant none of her hospital stays were covered. They were both screwed by the insurance companies. I would NEVER move to the US.
Live in Ontario. My grandbaby diagnosed with tumor a week later she has had surgery here in Canada. Resting at home. I went to see about my two shoulders in January had surgery booked two weeks later. My neighbour needed knee replacement waited 4 months getting it done next month. Another neighbor he has a tendon issue in his eye two months for surgery.
I am not sure what your talking about waiting for.
Depends on the neighbourhood. You can go down to like 2700ish if you go to Hayes Valley for example.
I’m just saying that I have firsthand experience renting in both cities and that while SF was indeed more expensive, the difference wasn’t all that big and it was way more than offset by the difference in salary.
Unlike Canada where industries are hyper concentrated in one city it is very very possible and thus likely they were making that level of pay outside of California or the NYC area
40% dollar to dollar or when factoring in exchange?
My partner works for a major tech company in one of the US tech hubs (not silicon valley expensive, but not cheap either) as an engineer, but I live in Toronto and in time the plan would be that he'd settle here.
There shouldnt be an issue transferring his position to Toronto but we have no idea what would happen to salary. We were hoping 1:1 before factoring in exchange but no clue
Probably not factoring the exchange. You get less dollars in absolute terms, and then take an even bigger haircut on the exchange rate. Then you pay higher tax and pay more for everything. It's a pretty terrible deal. I'm only still here because of family obligations, but that only keeps a person for so long.
For example, a software developer in the US with 2-3 years experience can generally get $120-$130k USD while in Canada the same dev would be looking at about $80-$85k CAD.
FWIW - cost of living here is far better than the city they live in. My rent is less than half and groceries far cheaper. He's coming up on 2 years experience and making 132k usd, but is also on a bit of a rocket trajectory ATM and had the highest % bonus on their last review/bonus cycle so my hope is that gives him some leverage for HR to want to keep him 😂
Baby if the tech hub cities in the US have similar cost of living to GTA... San Fran, Boston, NY, similar taxes and costs or even higher in some cases.
Depends on the company he works for, but in my company (tech) we adjust salary based on the market the person is in, for example if you live in San Fran you make 200K USD, but if you move to Vancouver, you make 160K CAD.
Overall as others have mentioned, salaries are about 30-40% lower in Canada (and higher income tax) compared to US.
Yeah, I used SF as an example, same role 200K USD San Fran, 180K USD Seattle, and 160K CAD in Vancouver.
I strongly suggest he check with his company to see what their policy is.
They typically pay based on CoL but they wont give him an exact scale/number and there aren't any existing data points as no engineers work out of the Toronto office.
In my big tech firm, here’s the rule of thumb… if you’re in the US, look at your pay one grade down. Then change the “USD” letters to “CAD”. Don’t do a currency conversion. Just change the letters. There’s your salary if you were doing the same job in the same company in Canada.
The good news is that if you have RSU’s, they’re still in USD!
Moved here 2 years ago from the states, took a 15% pay cut after conversion and I work in sales. My quota stayed the same lmao but they got 15% less effort from me as a result
As a person in tech I can also add that projects in Canada are not anywhere as exciting and promotions happen much slower.
This was my experience, so it might vary.
What does that even mean ? Every day I see post on Personal finance Canada talking about folks getting soft dev jobs ...they are not only experienced guys but fresh graduate as well with co op experience.
Cost of living is higher in Toronto than in most of the US cities, in my opinion.
Saw that you posted you’re from New York. I guess in this case 175k in Toronto is better than 185k in New York.
175k in Toronto gives you a more than good life. 185k in NY, from experience, will have you living in a studio; maybe a small one bedroom at best. Manhatten, which is where OP and most usually live cuz that’s where work is, is insanely expensive. We think groceries are bad here, it’s a whole other level there.
Those still have copays, and cou t as a taxable benefit/ pay deduction. Op is coming from NYC, taxes will be less here, and the healthcare costs will not be deducted in addition to taxes. Iv got dual citizenship and still have family in the usa for now. It's not that unheard of to have a salary like that, and have a healthcare plan with a 10k deductable before insurance pays anything. That's a significant amount. OPs salary level Obama care isn't subsiding and of their insurance.
I had a first class health plan in the States before moving here. I still paid so much more for healthcare there. Obviously YMMV depending on your personal circumstances, but I’ve saved literally thousands on healthcare by being here.
>Cost of living is higher in Toronto than in most of the US cities, in my opinion.
Debatable, depending on what you look at.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/region_rankings_current.jsp?displayColumn=2®ion=021
Once exchange rate is factored in Toronto costs go way down in comparison.
Well, where would you be moving from and to?
Monthly rent for a 1-bedroom in Toronto and Vancouver will run you around $2500 CAD in a mid-range apartment building, and closer to $2000 if you want to be in suburbia. A 2-bedroom condo will go for approximately $4k/mo. The only US cities that it makes sense to leave $185k USD for $175k CAD are NYC & SF/Bay Area.
Even then, you're going to want to compare your net income in both situations and remaining expenses, such as car, insurance, gas (much more expensive in Canada) etc.
You may be right, according to the Economist.
https://archive.ph/mn4Bo
However, some other news sources ranked Toronto as one of the most expensive cities in North America.
Current US citizen living in Toronto-
You will live just fine with $170K in Toronto and have a fantastic quality of life. The $CAD is weaker than the USD, but so are every other currencies.
Biggest drawback as a US citizen is you won’t be able to benefit from TFSA or FHSA tax advantaged accounts, they’re like a 401K and Roth IRA. look at this RBC document for more on this - https://ca.rbcwealthmanagement.com/documents/208666/208689/Passive+Foreign+Investment+Company+%28PFIC%29%20Rules.pdf/0fbbe603-7690-4ef4-b439-c1b91c8f24b3), but you will still have access to RRSP which is still great for retirement.
While this is a small drawback, you will be able to save more here than in NYC imo. Additionally, international experience, and assuming this is a vertical move from a work perspective, can give you major growth opportunities further into your career. Canada is a Mid-size pond, where big opportunities are more easily within reach for top performers.
——
From a less granular perspective- life’s about experiences- is exploring a new country and culture something you’re interested in? Do you think you’ll regret not living abroad, even if only for 12 - 24 months?
Thank you for sharing that RRSP ressource.
Your point on a higher saving rate, somehow, is nice to hear.
I already have international experience, I'm from Europe and lived on both US coasts. As far as career nothing changes, it's lateral, , it's driven by immigration issues but good to hear your input on that as well.
I'm trying to have a positive outlook on discovering a new place, I think that's cool I like when things are stimulating, but it's kinda the only positive thing from that move, hopefully it can still be fun.
I guess you have to move because of the idiotic US immigration laws, so you don’t really have a choice?
If that’s the case - don’t buy the “cost of living is lower in Canada” bullshit story from your employer. That’s a blatant lie. You will lose money purely because of the exchange rate to Euro and USD, and you will lose your 401K matching contributions you are currently getting.
You will need a car in Toronto, no matter what people tell you - things are much more spread out than NYC. And they are definitely not accessible by public transit unless you want to spend hours and hours for what would otherwise be a 30 minute drive. Wanna go to COSTCO? Yep, drive. Zoo? Yep, drive. Any natural reserve or even a park without junkies and tent cities in them? Yep, drive. I mean, you could maybe just rent cars for when you need them, but rental companies have now gotten very greedy.
The “GO” system is a joke. TTC is broken most of the days. And cars in Canada are insanely expensive. A $35K Honda SUV in the states is a $69K car here and it’s effin built in Canada, LOL :-)
Restaurant scene in Toronto is abysmal (I’m about to get downvoted to hell for this). Great restaurants are spread out. Like you’ll have to drive to Etobicoke for good sushi, for example. And the average bill is way higher than in NYC.
Toronto does not have a defined downtown or waterfront - there are just clusters of things all
over the place.
You do not need a car in Toronto. What are you talking about? (Yes if you want to travel outside Toronto to a provincial park to camp for a vacation of course you need a car, but you would also need one in New York, and basically anywhere else if you did the same, but you can rent one for a vacation?)
Similarly, there are great restaurants in Toronto, you do not need to drive across the GTA for them. Again, what are you talking about?
Do not listen to this person. Manhattan is much more expensive than Toronto, so yes C$175k will likely go further (You could certainly rent a nicer place than you have in NY). But I would be cautious when any company or HR tells you the cost of living is lower where they are sending you, very often it’s a mixed bag.
If one lives in Scarborough, one would need a vehicle or be stuck waiting for the bus for long durations. No-car advice is less valid there.
(I moved from mid-town to Scarborough)
I agree with other points.
I’m talking about my lived experience, having lived in both Toronto and NYC.
Name one park in Toronto, the size of NYC Central Park, that’s accessible by public transit?
Name one major shopping mall other than Eaton that you can get to by subway.
Regardless if you’re trying to replicate your exact experience of New York in Toronto, of course that’s not going to work? It’s a different city.
But you do not need a car if you live in Toronto proper - unless you want one, sure the TTC is a bit of an embarrassment when you compare the transit to other cities like New York and London for instance and could have many improvements but it’s not all doom and gloom. Yes the restaurant scene is not like New York, but again, you don’t need to drive across the city in search of decent restaurants. The shopping isn’t as good as New York and the US in general - and Europe - but shopping is still very accessible if you live in Toronto without a car? (And as a fairly avid shopper it’s arguably much better than shopping than GTA malls that you have to drive to?)
Toronto is not New York City? It never will be? Like if you’re looking for exactly New York City in another city you won’t find it? That’s what makes New York New York? OP is asking about salary and cost of living - you’re giving bad advice. In no way do you NEED a car in Toronto, many many people do happily without one. If OP was living in suburbia / GTA like Oakville, Brampton, etc. then 100% would need a car but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
Toronto has a great park and ravine system that is accessible in almost all neighborhoods on the subway and streetcar lines. Yes it’s not laid out and planned like Central Park and Manhattan - but that doesn’t mean you need to buy a car? There’s High Park, Don Valley, Humber River, etc. then all the smaller neighborhood parks like Greenwood Park, Trinity Bellwoods and countless others.
What is wrong with the Eaton Center and Queen West? Outside the fact that you can easier get to Yorkdale, why do you need to access multiple malls?
ETA: there’s also Yorkville for high end shopping…?
You forgot the Islands and the Leslie Street Spit(tommy thompson). Also Rouge River National Park is transit accessible. Just let the carmaxxer take their daily copium and carry on.
At what rate? CAD175K? No way in hell will you be qualified for $1.5M that a detached home in Milton will cost you. Where are you people posting from??????
I moved from the U.S. to GTA. Unless you’re coming from a LCOL area in the US that salary is good. You’re right to ignore the exchange rate because your spending is in CAD too. Just saw you’re moving from NYC. In that case, you’re definitely not taking a big pay cut. You’ll find apartments to be cheaper than NYC and the city to be much cleaner.
>You’re right to ignore the exchange rate because your spending is in CAD too.
Not really. Any savings will also be in CAD.
The correct way to do it is convert the currencies to equivalencies (after tax), estimate COL to the best of ability, and see which leads to higher savings.
Yeah but if money is the only aim then why move at all? For all practical purposes earning 100K in Toronto is going to be same as 100K in NYC. If savings are to be optimized OP should move to Detroit and not Toronto
I mean in this specific case the concept happens to work fairly well because New York is roughly 50% more expensive than Toronto and USD is 35% more valuable. So you can ignore the currency and it's a small difference.
But ignoring the currency when moving from Milwaukee to Toronto would be a massive mistake though, for example.
In general the idea of "ignore exchange rate because your spending is in that currency" is nonsense, as could be highlighted by taking a 170k/year job in Mexico City or Seoul using their currencies. Clearly, the currency exchange matters regardless of what you're spending in.
Umm. We’re talking about this specific case. I could bring PPP into the discussion but I didn’t. I don’t care that my comment was not true for all Redditors. I was responding to OP.
I mean your initial comment made it clear you have no idea where OP was coming from in the US, Ignoring the exchange rate if he was coming from Milwaukee or Albequerque would be downright stupid.
170k CAD in Toronto is better than 180k USD in NY. I speak from some experience.
At 180k USD in NY you’re still making ends meet. Living in a run down building, choosing between units that have laundry and those that don’t. In Toronto, $170k makes you very rich by the city’s standards. You’ll get approved for most rental units immediately, have lots of choices between nice and fairly new condos, and probably save money too (idk your lifestyle). 2500 for rent, 3k for total expenses and you have a few thousand left over in savings every month.
My experience: made 170k in Toronto in 2022. Got offered 180k in NYC in 2023, and my research into a potential move made it clear that I would be cutting down on my standard of living in almost every conceivable way. My brother also moved from TO to NY a few years ago so I have a very good point of reference.
Despite the doom and gloom, standard of living is quite high and Toronto remains one of the cleanest and safest big cities to live in in North America. You’re gonna get really really bored though, since it all kinda peaks in NYC.
Thank you Beneficial_Bend_5035 for sharing this, really helpful! You’re almost spot on on my lifestyle 😂 Maybe I can offset some of that cut by saving a bit more. Even less looking forward to moving there now reading that boring part …
It can be exciting if you live downtown. Live south of St. Clair, east of Bathurst, and west of Jarvis. There is lots going on there. You'll have a really boring time if you decide to suddenly go suburban and move to Mississauga.
Theoretically yes, ossingtn could be a good choice but there are also places there that could have a relatively painful commute of you're not that familiar with the area.
Not disagreeing with you, but Toronto doesn't have to be a boring city. You can make it fun and exciting. Yes it won't be as exciting as New York, but it doesn't have to be boring. And by north American standards it can be quite exciting.
Yeah I should clarify I do enjoy my life and this city, I’m not a miserable bore 😂 I was just comparing it to NYC because that’s where OP is from and I’ve spent a lot of time over there in the last 4-5 years.
Kinda depends on your lifestyle but Toronto isn’t boring. NYC is just probably the least boring city in the world. Might be better to compare it to wherever you’re from originally
Haha no worries, I have a brother and many friends in NY so quite connected to that city and familiar with the lifestyle of this pay grade. My brother pays $5.5k/month to live in a loft with a creaky elevator installed in the ‘90s, no concierge, occasional rat problem, and a homeless shelter next door.
I will say though that I’m still looking to move out of Toronto, because the Canadian job market is a total dead end with low ambition. If you want to do big in life, the United States is where it’s at.
Student dorms, if that’s what you mean by student building, tend to have inflated prices. It’s the same in Toronto, and also why a lot of students move off campus after first or second year.
Currently live downtown. I pay 2900 for a 2 bed but when I was looking I found some beautiful 1 bed apartments for 2500-2600. I once rented out a bedroom in a 3 bed 2 bath apartment where the total rent was around 3000. There are definitely some good places in Toronto if you get lucky and find them
"Nice" 2-bedroom units are not in Manhattan. You probably saw them in Brooklyn, and away from the gentrified waterfront like Dumbo, Williamsburg, and more into deeper Brooklyn like Bushwick.
Mate, forget about it, this sub is a Toronto circle jerk, they downvote anyone who says otherwise.
I’m reading these comments and going out of my mind - OP is about to lose 40-50% of their income, adjusting for exchange rate and 401K matching. They are moving from, I presume NYC to Toronto and people are saying Toronto is so much better. They are saying the cost of living is cheaper in Toronto, FFS. They are saying the quality of life (!) is better in Toronto than it is in NYC. They are saying OP will qualify for a mortgage to afford a detached home in GTA, with just CAD175K, ahahahaha! These folks are completely delusional.
Because it’s not entirely true.
While rent is higher in NYC, just about everything else is cheaper, dollar-for-dollar.
Travel to Europe? Way cheaper. Groceries? Check. Clothing? Check. Durable goods? Check. Cars, gas? Check. Average restaurant bill? Check.
I’ve lived and worked in NYC. Only time it felt great was when loonie was at par with the buck.
And then OP will be poorer in Europe where they intend to travel (they are from there), because loonie is down the drain as far as exchange rate to Euro goes.
My salary hasn’t changed drastically since around 2013 when loonie was at par. I used to make $170K at the time, I make around $200K now, give or take. But I became about 40% poorer relative to Europeans and Americans. My salary should be around $230K now just to keep even with what I had 10 years ago.
Buddy you probably haven't been in NYC for a while. I live here. Rent is for sure cheaper in Toronto, and while other items aren't as excessive as rent, it is still more expensive especially when you adjust for currency.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Canada&city1=Toronto&country2=United+States&city2=New+York%2C+NY
It was probably better when currency was at parity. But since it's not, it's an automatic 30% increase on top of the sticker price when you convert.
OP I actually just did the opposite move. Toronto to NYC with very similar salary numbers to yours.
I can say that your quality of life will be much better in Toronto with 170k cad compared to 185k usd.
The conversion is meaningless because cost of living is almost the same in numerical terms. What you will notice is that quality of life gets better.
You’ll get newer, larger, and nicer places to live for similar amounts of money. There will be less compromises compared to NYC.
Also worth noting that at 170k CAD your average tax rate in Toronto will actually be lower than NYC since there is no city tax. 34% NYC vs 30.5% in Ontario.
Fiancée and I just did an extensive calculation of this as he’s moving from SF back to Toronto and it’s about the same $205k usd -> 180k cad. You could have a bougie lifestyle here for way less than what you would spend at nyc/sf plus average taxes are still low at this income level.
I did both NYC and Toronto. People talking about FX here is talking out of their ass because in Toronto, a meal may be $50 cad but in NY similar meals will be $50usd or more. So exchange rate is irrelevant here unless you’re planning to save a lot.
COL wise I’d say they are comparable and maybe slightly cheaper here with the salaries you stated. The biggest caveat for me is the food scene. NY food is miles better than Toronto if that’s what you’re considering as well. Also, Toronto is not what it is precovid and a lot of the places are becoming sketchy and way more homeless people (that are more aggressive than the NY ones)
I’d say if you think there’s a career growth with the move, do it. I moved back to Toronto for family that’s why
There are pockets of Toronto that are similar to NYC. It’s also a lot cleaner here, and food is better quality (we have stricter laws about what goes into food, how it’s made or raised, what ingredients are allowed, etc.)
I’d ask for $185k CAD. I wouldn’t compare the converted currency. It’s not like you’ll be earning USD in Canada and CAD in the US. Just compare rents, groceries, etc in relation to your new Canadian income don’t over think it. And imo I think you’ll actually come out ahead in taxes since you won’t be paying NYC local tax, we don’t have a third city income tax in Canada. The only shock is the crazy sales tax and some food items namely meat, dairy, eggs, butter are a lot more expensive in Canada.
You can rent a very nice one bed condo downtown for $2.2k-2.4k. Check out realtor.ca, Kijiji, FB marketplace, viewit.ca, and even Craigslist. You’ll have your own laundry, gym, and a lot of condo buildings have pools. If you want a den for an office space think $2.5k. The same can definitely not be said for NYC lol.
My question to you is, will moving to Toronto hurt or benefit your career growth?
I agree that's why in theory I'm *ok* with the adjustment. I'm paid in CAD spending in CAD not paid in CAD spending in USD. Though when it comes to savings it's literally 30% less which has a massive impact long term even if 2 years, especially not being able to contribute do 401K, IRA, HSA. And when it comes to visiting my family in Europe or vacations it's 50% than a EUR.
Thanks for your input on cost and housing. It's true for NYC you'd be looking at $5K minimum for a nice condo.
Career wise it's the same, I just don't have much choice (U.S immigration type thing).
Idk what most of these commenters are saying considering I’m sure most have never lived in the US. Toronto is a word class city, with that salary, your quality of life will be better than most places in the US. Toronto is New York light, with that it means you still have great food, social life, events but without the garbage/ piss ridden streets. The subway isn’t as good but it’s still great, the city doesn’t have as much culture but it’s still great. It’s not all about the numbers, there are quality of life improvements you simply don’t read on paper
If you care more about non-monetary things, then Toronto is a fantastic place to raise kids. I took a pay cut to move here from the states and am so happy I did.
If you are coming from NYC then the cost of living is significantly lower here in Toronto.
It never hurts to ask.
Probably a 2 bedroom in downtown, or maybe a townhouse in the suburb.
170k in Toronto will buy you a decent place. Rents here or high, but not New York high.
You can get a reasonable quality two bedroom apartment for under 3000 a month. Less if you don't want to live downtown. Higher end executive apartments come on over $4000 a month.
Generally speaking the quality of life here is very good. It's safe, there's a shit ton of stuff to do, but whatever you're into Toronto has it. Great theater scene, great music scene, great bar club scene, lots of incredible food from all around the world.
Worth it financially? Maybe maybe not. Obviously your investments won't go as far in $ US.
Salary cut isn't too huge. I know the 30% cut is big on paper, but Toronto is still much cheaper than SF or NY or Seattle (assuming your tech job is one of those places). Not just rent, food and social life is relatively much cheaper in Toronto, and sadly there's less happening in Toronto versus those cities so you tend to spend less too (lived in both places, and spend a lot of time in US).
However, the quality of career would definitely take a huge hit and that's something I didn't realize until after a few years. Even if you work remotely for the same company, there's a feeling you're missing out on in person collaborations, or interesting projects, or just being around a lot of really smart and ambitious people.
Canada does not really have a home grown tech industry, and if your career is your priority you'll definitely find it to be really lacking. After a few years of being in Toronto, I'm finding myself wanting to move back to feel excited about my career again. As much as people like to hype it up, Toronto is by no means the next Bay Area, Silicon Valley or whatever
This.
Most Canadians who want to get involved in tech, leave Canada. Not only for the better salaries, but also because the FAANG companies that do have offices here, don’t hire for eng jobs here. Brain drain is a huge issue.
That is basically a 60k reduction in USD but depending on where ur coming from the lower cost of living in Canada should be able to offset that and it’s not just free healthcare lots of things are more affordable here compared to say SF or NYC, TO is expensive AF but with whatever u have saved up along with that salary I think u can mortgage a one bedroom condo in south Etobicoke or even buy outright depending on how much u have saved up, u can easily fine one that’s 450-500k CAD and still easily access DT through the street car although u will need a car to get around locally, if u can get a 185k increase that would beneficial for retirement but Canada is not too bad and u can definitely go with that, IK this isn’t a forever move but u may be willing to settle here permanently whether or not u like it but considering everything going on in the US i think u will be much happier here.
Cost wise it’s pretty much the same with $185k USD and $170k CAD in a similar city, maybe with a shinier apartment in Toronto if compared to Manhattan or SF. But if you’re in tech or anything future driven, the things you do might decline in quality. Also I’ve done the reverse move, with a bit higher salary than this (around 20%) and my lifestyle is the same as in Toronto in Jersey city. I’d definitely try to go as close to the conversion equivalent to $170k USD in CAD as you can, so around 195-200k, if you get 185, it’s fine. Because I got the same number + 10% from CAD to USD (so the extra 30% in exchange as well), so the deal you’re getting is definitely better for your company than you.
I moved just like you thinking I would go back to the US in a few yrs. Fell in love with Canada and never went back. Salaries are undoubtedly lower here but the work life balance, quality of life, infrastructure, social support is amazing and hence, I strongly believe in the long run, you are more likely to be happier here!
Everyone pretends that CA salaries are what you make in the states. That's just not the case. If you're coming from CA sure but that's the peak of the whole country. 170k is a very livable salary in Toronto. It is expensive here tho. But other things like health care/toll roads/etc cost WAY less. I worked with a guy who came from the states and he thinks he's doing better here due to all the things he's not paying for out of pocket. Again tho that depends on your situation very much. There's a lot of "hidden fees" in the states people rarely account for.
There's also bullets and violence. Which you may take as snark but it's really not. The aggression of random people in the states is not normal and you'll be werided out by it when you get away from it for long enough. Millions of dudes sleeping by loaded guns. It's crazy. So it also depends the price you put on safety and normalcy in society.
With this salary, your housing options are pretty much "whatever you want" in terms of apartments. Maybe not a full on house down town. Your take home is going to be around $11k a month. 2beds start around $3000 and 3beds probably around $4000. You'll probably pay less in utilities as it's very uncommon to pay for water and heating ("hydro" means electricity). You won't have any medical expenses.
Canada is not the place to make piles of money, but you may be surprised at how much less you spend vs a large American City (source: living in a large American city right now).
I don't think there's any harm in negotiating your salary.
Lol. 10% lower aside of exchange rate? buddy? You are 30% lower with the exchange rate. But that’s not all. Your tax bill is going to be 20-30% higher. Your cost of living in Toronto is going to be through the roof. If you don’t own a property in Toronto 170k is not going to get you far, forget starting a family.
You are doing it wrong - people move the other way.
This is crazy, not only are you going to make less but Toronto is crazy expensive, you’re going to pay like 40% in taxes.
Rent is insane. Are you going to have a car? Insurance is a lot higher. You doubt you’ll put any money into your savings while you’re here.
Any chance you can keep your job and work remotely? Just come here in the summer and then go back.
I make $150k CAD. I can comfortably afford to rent a 1 bedroom + den apartment downtown.
Depends what kind of place you plan on getting. If you want a house, you’re going to be paying upwards of a million dollars for something that isn’t an abandoned crack house or in a really bad neighborhood. Not sure what that will cost monthly, as I haven’t even bothered looking. But a $750k house with a 100k down payment is around 4-5k a month.
To those individuals going on about ridiculous cost of housing in Toronto, the average 2 bedroom apartment rental here in Toronto is $3500($2600 US$) versus $6750($5000 US$) in New York city and $5250($3900 US$) in San Francisco.
Yes housing have become expensive here. That is what happens when your city becomes a popular place to live. It's no longer 1975. Welcome to the big time.
Blame the following for helping elevate Toronto on the world stage: Drake, the weekend, Biebs, Rush, Neil Young, Shawn Mendes, Kiefer, Mike Myers, Marget Atwood, Jim Carey, John Candy, Lorne Micheals, the Rapters, the Blue Jays, U of T, Keanu Reeves, our impressive high ranking for best city in just about every catagory.
I would personally do it because I love Canada and Toronto and there is less visa stress, but career-wise it may not be a great move, to be honest. There are lesser opportunities here and cost of living is higher with lower base pay.
I wouldn’t leave the U.S. for Canada. We have better opportunities here and we are far better. Higher dollar, more flights internationally and everything.
Also- $180K USD in NY is the same as $145K CAD in Toronto, adjusted for taxes and cost of living. See numbeo- https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=New+York%2C+NY&country2=Canada&city2=Toronto&amount=180000&displayCurrency=USD
Cost of living is nuts here in Toronto. One bed is 2200 to 2400 at least. Grocery and eating out will be 300-400 very easily.
If you want to buy a car that'll cost 1k at least.
Total expenses will 4.5k
I will assume you have a job waiting... if you don't then you might want to do a lot more digging ... software developers earn more in the US, have better opportunity, your bills are less, cost of a home is less, entertainment... less, etc in some cases shockingly less.
average house price in the US is 400,000. the average house price in Canada is 650,000 ... whole hell of a lot of difference there bud.
in 2015 our ave home price was 400,000
as far as things like cell phone goes we are pretty much the second highest on earth only beat by South Africa ...
everything is more here and that is the point
Fuck, no!
$185K USD is, basically, $250K straight conversion. And if you go by buying power - that’s more like $300K.
Canadian companies don’t pay that much. Cost of living in GTA is insane, compared to even Buffalo less than 2 hrs away.
Hard no.
Kinda silly to compare the most desirable pocket of the entire country to a city that has little to no economic viability and heavily depopulated since the 60s. Of course cost of living is going to be higher in Toronto than a rust belt town, what the hell?
Why are you considering the move to Toronto? I’m assuming this is gross pay and doesn’t capture the differences in taxes, which should further reduce the Canadian salary
I’d personally stay in the US and make frequent visits to Canada. I dropped my Canadian residency last year and the tax savings alone are meaningful
Why would you move to Canada? We are full and our economy is in worse shape compared to the uss. Canadians are fighting hard to get into the usa for job opportunities.
NYC has municipal income tax and at least we have free healthcare sure wait times but i rather not pay thousands of dollars just to patch up a broken arm of 300k for heart surgery.
USA USA USA. Period. Don’t ever think of coming here. I still regret my decision of not staying in the US. Hopefully I’ll be back in the following years.
Apart from the obvious salary/currency/real estate posts, as someone who’s been there and done that - I would prefer (good) American health insurance in a good city over OHIP any day of the week. In NYC I had plenty of options to get seen without a hassle, whereas I continually hear horror stories here. (Personally experienced a 9 hour wait for a single stitch)
The more important question is what is forcing you to move to Canada and is it worth it for less money and more expenses. Immigration? Keep in mind Immigration is not as easy as it used to be 5 years ago.
If you're a software developer you're going to be disappointed
Can you expand?
All the tech companies are in the US. My friend was getting a 40% cut while paying more for rent in Toronto. Went back to the US after a few months.
Same thing happened with my co-worker. Earns \~40% more in the US in the exact same role, pays lower taxes and has cheaper rent. We get shafted up north
But healthcare won’t bankrupt you.
But at 180k you likely have insurance. And actual access to doctors.
I’m at $193K and no I don’t even have a family doctor
They mean in the US
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You're not factoring in that getting seriously ill gets you fired in the US and then you lose your insurance.
I assume you've never had insurance deny a claim yet.
My brother said same thing. Knee pain that ended up being rare cancer and he lived with my mom now, broke. Cousin got pregnant some pre existing condition that app her fam doc had told her when she was younger but she hadn’t know about meant none of her hospital stays were covered. They were both screwed by the insurance companies. I would NEVER move to the US.
Yes you are right. Will just die waiting for it instead.
Live in Ontario. My grandbaby diagnosed with tumor a week later she has had surgery here in Canada. Resting at home. I went to see about my two shoulders in January had surgery booked two weeks later. My neighbour needed knee replacement waited 4 months getting it done next month. Another neighbor he has a tendon issue in his eye two months for surgery. I am not sure what your talking about waiting for.
If you friend was in the San Francisco area, aka the hub of tech, they were unlikely paying less to live there...
It’s really not as big a difference as you might think. I know that I was surprised when I moved to SF.
Average rent in San fran is $3500 US, which is $5,000 CAD. That's far more than Toronto.
Depends on the neighbourhood. You can go down to like 2700ish if you go to Hayes Valley for example. I’m just saying that I have firsthand experience renting in both cities and that while SF was indeed more expensive, the difference wasn’t all that big and it was way more than offset by the difference in salary.
Unlike Canada where industries are hyper concentrated in one city it is very very possible and thus likely they were making that level of pay outside of California or the NYC area
40% dollar to dollar or when factoring in exchange? My partner works for a major tech company in one of the US tech hubs (not silicon valley expensive, but not cheap either) as an engineer, but I live in Toronto and in time the plan would be that he'd settle here. There shouldnt be an issue transferring his position to Toronto but we have no idea what would happen to salary. We were hoping 1:1 before factoring in exchange but no clue
Salaries are lower in Toronto vs California for the same company and the same grade. What's even lower is the stock grants, it's not even comparable.
He's not quite california salaries 😅
Check levels.fyi and filter by location. You'll see the difference.
We have, unfortunately toronto isnt an engineering hub for the company so there arent any real data points 🥲
Probably not factoring the exchange. You get less dollars in absolute terms, and then take an even bigger haircut on the exchange rate. Then you pay higher tax and pay more for everything. It's a pretty terrible deal. I'm only still here because of family obligations, but that only keeps a person for so long. For example, a software developer in the US with 2-3 years experience can generally get $120-$130k USD while in Canada the same dev would be looking at about $80-$85k CAD.
FWIW - cost of living here is far better than the city they live in. My rent is less than half and groceries far cheaper. He's coming up on 2 years experience and making 132k usd, but is also on a bit of a rocket trajectory ATM and had the highest % bonus on their last review/bonus cycle so my hope is that gives him some leverage for HR to want to keep him 😂
Baby if the tech hub cities in the US have similar cost of living to GTA... San Fran, Boston, NY, similar taxes and costs or even higher in some cases.
With the exchange and less pay.
As in the canadian pay was lower, but not 40% lower until after looking at exchange rate values?
For example take 100 USD, convert that to CAD, then multiply by 0.6
Depends on the company he works for, but in my company (tech) we adjust salary based on the market the person is in, for example if you live in San Fran you make 200K USD, but if you move to Vancouver, you make 160K CAD. Overall as others have mentioned, salaries are about 30-40% lower in Canada (and higher income tax) compared to US.
To be fair... SF area is usually the highest salaries in all of the US lol. If he were there he'd be close to 200k
Yeah, I used SF as an example, same role 200K USD San Fran, 180K USD Seattle, and 160K CAD in Vancouver. I strongly suggest he check with his company to see what their policy is.
They typically pay based on CoL but they wont give him an exact scale/number and there aren't any existing data points as no engineers work out of the Toronto office.
In my big tech firm, here’s the rule of thumb… if you’re in the US, look at your pay one grade down. Then change the “USD” letters to “CAD”. Don’t do a currency conversion. Just change the letters. There’s your salary if you were doing the same job in the same company in Canada. The good news is that if you have RSU’s, they’re still in USD!
You will not get 1:1 salary exchange. It will be lower in Toronto and in Cad
Usually like 40-50% less dollar to dollar. Plus Canada is a dumpster fire currently
Not sure the US is much better in terms of dumpster fire status
Moved here 2 years ago from the states, took a 15% pay cut after conversion and I work in sales. My quota stayed the same lmao but they got 15% less effort from me as a result
As a person in tech I can also add that projects in Canada are not anywhere as exciting and promotions happen much slower. This was my experience, so it might vary.
Thankfully if he relocated he'd be able to stay on his current team and projects! They already have a couple one off people in canada on the team
This really depends on your level and your company.
Bottom of the barrel salary for the same work, higher taxes and cost of living
Hard to even find job this past year.
What does that even mean ? Every day I see post on Personal finance Canada talking about folks getting soft dev jobs ...they are not only experienced guys but fresh graduate as well with co op experience.
US$175,000 = C$249,660. That’s a 30% cut.
If you look at the exchange rate yes, not if you look at cost of living, though that does significantly impact my saving rate which is my concern.
Cost of living is higher in Toronto than in most of the US cities, in my opinion. Saw that you posted you’re from New York. I guess in this case 175k in Toronto is better than 185k in New York.
San Francisco is where most tech jobs are and the COL is higher than even Toronto
175k in Toronto gives you a more than good life. 185k in NY, from experience, will have you living in a studio; maybe a small one bedroom at best. Manhatten, which is where OP and most usually live cuz that’s where work is, is insanely expensive. We think groceries are bad here, it’s a whole other level there.
Op will uabe their healthcare costs slashed to next to nothing.
pretty sure the 185k usd job had a health plan included
Those still have copays, and cou t as a taxable benefit/ pay deduction. Op is coming from NYC, taxes will be less here, and the healthcare costs will not be deducted in addition to taxes. Iv got dual citizenship and still have family in the usa for now. It's not that unheard of to have a salary like that, and have a healthcare plan with a 10k deductable before insurance pays anything. That's a significant amount. OPs salary level Obama care isn't subsiding and of their insurance.
I had a first class health plan in the States before moving here. I still paid so much more for healthcare there. Obviously YMMV depending on your personal circumstances, but I’ve saved literally thousands on healthcare by being here.
>Cost of living is higher in Toronto than in most of the US cities, in my opinion. Debatable, depending on what you look at. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/region_rankings_current.jsp?displayColumn=2®ion=021 Once exchange rate is factored in Toronto costs go way down in comparison.
Where in the US?
Well, where would you be moving from and to? Monthly rent for a 1-bedroom in Toronto and Vancouver will run you around $2500 CAD in a mid-range apartment building, and closer to $2000 if you want to be in suburbia. A 2-bedroom condo will go for approximately $4k/mo. The only US cities that it makes sense to leave $185k USD for $175k CAD are NYC & SF/Bay Area. Even then, you're going to want to compare your net income in both situations and remaining expenses, such as car, insurance, gas (much more expensive in Canada) etc.
Where the hell do you live that cost of living is *lower* in Toronto???
Man if money is your concern it's a no brainer, don't do it.
Cost of living doesn’t matter for globalized goods….
You may be right, according to the Economist. https://archive.ph/mn4Bo However, some other news sources ranked Toronto as one of the most expensive cities in North America.
Try googling the rent for a nice 2 bedroom condos in Toronto
If he's coming from San Fran (the tech hub) or new York (another person above said that's where he's from), Google the same thing...
Nice 2 bedroom condos are $6k USD/mth in NY/SF/LA.
There are like 20 cities in the US with rent more expensive than Toronto. Based on his salary, he probably lives in one.
Current US citizen living in Toronto- You will live just fine with $170K in Toronto and have a fantastic quality of life. The $CAD is weaker than the USD, but so are every other currencies. Biggest drawback as a US citizen is you won’t be able to benefit from TFSA or FHSA tax advantaged accounts, they’re like a 401K and Roth IRA. look at this RBC document for more on this - https://ca.rbcwealthmanagement.com/documents/208666/208689/Passive+Foreign+Investment+Company+%28PFIC%29%20Rules.pdf/0fbbe603-7690-4ef4-b439-c1b91c8f24b3), but you will still have access to RRSP which is still great for retirement. While this is a small drawback, you will be able to save more here than in NYC imo. Additionally, international experience, and assuming this is a vertical move from a work perspective, can give you major growth opportunities further into your career. Canada is a Mid-size pond, where big opportunities are more easily within reach for top performers. —— From a less granular perspective- life’s about experiences- is exploring a new country and culture something you’re interested in? Do you think you’ll regret not living abroad, even if only for 12 - 24 months?
Thank you for sharing that RRSP ressource. Your point on a higher saving rate, somehow, is nice to hear. I already have international experience, I'm from Europe and lived on both US coasts. As far as career nothing changes, it's lateral, , it's driven by immigration issues but good to hear your input on that as well. I'm trying to have a positive outlook on discovering a new place, I think that's cool I like when things are stimulating, but it's kinda the only positive thing from that move, hopefully it can still be fun.
OP, where in US are you currently based?
NYC
I guess you have to move because of the idiotic US immigration laws, so you don’t really have a choice? If that’s the case - don’t buy the “cost of living is lower in Canada” bullshit story from your employer. That’s a blatant lie. You will lose money purely because of the exchange rate to Euro and USD, and you will lose your 401K matching contributions you are currently getting. You will need a car in Toronto, no matter what people tell you - things are much more spread out than NYC. And they are definitely not accessible by public transit unless you want to spend hours and hours for what would otherwise be a 30 minute drive. Wanna go to COSTCO? Yep, drive. Zoo? Yep, drive. Any natural reserve or even a park without junkies and tent cities in them? Yep, drive. I mean, you could maybe just rent cars for when you need them, but rental companies have now gotten very greedy. The “GO” system is a joke. TTC is broken most of the days. And cars in Canada are insanely expensive. A $35K Honda SUV in the states is a $69K car here and it’s effin built in Canada, LOL :-) Restaurant scene in Toronto is abysmal (I’m about to get downvoted to hell for this). Great restaurants are spread out. Like you’ll have to drive to Etobicoke for good sushi, for example. And the average bill is way higher than in NYC. Toronto does not have a defined downtown or waterfront - there are just clusters of things all over the place.
You do not need a car in Toronto. What are you talking about? (Yes if you want to travel outside Toronto to a provincial park to camp for a vacation of course you need a car, but you would also need one in New York, and basically anywhere else if you did the same, but you can rent one for a vacation?) Similarly, there are great restaurants in Toronto, you do not need to drive across the GTA for them. Again, what are you talking about? Do not listen to this person. Manhattan is much more expensive than Toronto, so yes C$175k will likely go further (You could certainly rent a nicer place than you have in NY). But I would be cautious when any company or HR tells you the cost of living is lower where they are sending you, very often it’s a mixed bag.
If one lives in Scarborough, one would need a vehicle or be stuck waiting for the bus for long durations. No-car advice is less valid there. (I moved from mid-town to Scarborough) I agree with other points.
I’m talking about my lived experience, having lived in both Toronto and NYC. Name one park in Toronto, the size of NYC Central Park, that’s accessible by public transit? Name one major shopping mall other than Eaton that you can get to by subway.
Regardless if you’re trying to replicate your exact experience of New York in Toronto, of course that’s not going to work? It’s a different city. But you do not need a car if you live in Toronto proper - unless you want one, sure the TTC is a bit of an embarrassment when you compare the transit to other cities like New York and London for instance and could have many improvements but it’s not all doom and gloom. Yes the restaurant scene is not like New York, but again, you don’t need to drive across the city in search of decent restaurants. The shopping isn’t as good as New York and the US in general - and Europe - but shopping is still very accessible if you live in Toronto without a car? (And as a fairly avid shopper it’s arguably much better than shopping than GTA malls that you have to drive to?)
Toronto is not New York City? It never will be? Like if you’re looking for exactly New York City in another city you won’t find it? That’s what makes New York New York? OP is asking about salary and cost of living - you’re giving bad advice. In no way do you NEED a car in Toronto, many many people do happily without one. If OP was living in suburbia / GTA like Oakville, Brampton, etc. then 100% would need a car but that doesn’t seem to be the case. Toronto has a great park and ravine system that is accessible in almost all neighborhoods on the subway and streetcar lines. Yes it’s not laid out and planned like Central Park and Manhattan - but that doesn’t mean you need to buy a car? There’s High Park, Don Valley, Humber River, etc. then all the smaller neighborhood parks like Greenwood Park, Trinity Bellwoods and countless others. What is wrong with the Eaton Center and Queen West? Outside the fact that you can easier get to Yorkdale, why do you need to access multiple malls? ETA: there’s also Yorkville for high end shopping…?
You forgot the Islands and the Leslie Street Spit(tommy thompson). Also Rouge River National Park is transit accessible. Just let the carmaxxer take their daily copium and carry on.
It can be fun. Its just that salary only gets you a middle class lifestyle in Toronto. You may be able to buy a detatched home in Milton at that rate.
At what rate? CAD175K? No way in hell will you be qualified for $1.5M that a detached home in Milton will cost you. Where are you people posting from??????
The USD is weaker than the pound and the euro, just wanted to say 😅
I moved from the U.S. to GTA. Unless you’re coming from a LCOL area in the US that salary is good. You’re right to ignore the exchange rate because your spending is in CAD too. Just saw you’re moving from NYC. In that case, you’re definitely not taking a big pay cut. You’ll find apartments to be cheaper than NYC and the city to be much cleaner.
>You’re right to ignore the exchange rate because your spending is in CAD too. Not really. Any savings will also be in CAD. The correct way to do it is convert the currencies to equivalencies (after tax), estimate COL to the best of ability, and see which leads to higher savings.
Yeah but if money is the only aim then why move at all? For all practical purposes earning 100K in Toronto is going to be same as 100K in NYC. If savings are to be optimized OP should move to Detroit and not Toronto
I mean in this specific case the concept happens to work fairly well because New York is roughly 50% more expensive than Toronto and USD is 35% more valuable. So you can ignore the currency and it's a small difference. But ignoring the currency when moving from Milwaukee to Toronto would be a massive mistake though, for example. In general the idea of "ignore exchange rate because your spending is in that currency" is nonsense, as could be highlighted by taking a 170k/year job in Mexico City or Seoul using their currencies. Clearly, the currency exchange matters regardless of what you're spending in.
Umm. We’re talking about this specific case. I could bring PPP into the discussion but I didn’t. I don’t care that my comment was not true for all Redditors. I was responding to OP.
I mean your initial comment made it clear you have no idea where OP was coming from in the US, Ignoring the exchange rate if he was coming from Milwaukee or Albequerque would be downright stupid.
My initial comment and edit was seconds apart. Jeez you’re exhausting. My sympathies to the people around you.
Yikes, you realize you can see when a reddit comment is edited right?
170k CAD in Toronto is better than 180k USD in NY. I speak from some experience. At 180k USD in NY you’re still making ends meet. Living in a run down building, choosing between units that have laundry and those that don’t. In Toronto, $170k makes you very rich by the city’s standards. You’ll get approved for most rental units immediately, have lots of choices between nice and fairly new condos, and probably save money too (idk your lifestyle). 2500 for rent, 3k for total expenses and you have a few thousand left over in savings every month. My experience: made 170k in Toronto in 2022. Got offered 180k in NYC in 2023, and my research into a potential move made it clear that I would be cutting down on my standard of living in almost every conceivable way. My brother also moved from TO to NY a few years ago so I have a very good point of reference. Despite the doom and gloom, standard of living is quite high and Toronto remains one of the cleanest and safest big cities to live in in North America. You’re gonna get really really bored though, since it all kinda peaks in NYC.
Thank you Beneficial_Bend_5035 for sharing this, really helpful! You’re almost spot on on my lifestyle 😂 Maybe I can offset some of that cut by saving a bit more. Even less looking forward to moving there now reading that boring part …
It can be exciting if you live downtown. Live south of St. Clair, east of Bathurst, and west of Jarvis. There is lots going on there. You'll have a really boring time if you decide to suddenly go suburban and move to Mississauga.
*squints at your words* as I read your post from Square One
I think you can stretch as far as Dufferin on the west side, no?
Theoretically yes, ossingtn could be a good choice but there are also places there that could have a relatively painful commute of you're not that familiar with the area.
I love Ossington, it’s the best area in Toronto IMO. But there are 15-20 neighbourhoods like that in just Brooklyn.
Anything east of Markham not worth your time lol you will be just fine in the city
Don't go anywhere close to Markham, let alone east or west of it
I live as downtown as downtown gets and trust me compared to New York it’s still boring. You just can’t compare that city with anything else
Not disagreeing with you, but Toronto doesn't have to be a boring city. You can make it fun and exciting. Yes it won't be as exciting as New York, but it doesn't have to be boring. And by north American standards it can be quite exciting.
Yeah I should clarify I do enjoy my life and this city, I’m not a miserable bore 😂 I was just comparing it to NYC because that’s where OP is from and I’ve spent a lot of time over there in the last 4-5 years.
Kinda depends on your lifestyle but Toronto isn’t boring. NYC is just probably the least boring city in the world. Might be better to compare it to wherever you’re from originally
Haha no worries, I have a brother and many friends in NY so quite connected to that city and familiar with the lifestyle of this pay grade. My brother pays $5.5k/month to live in a loft with a creaky elevator installed in the ‘90s, no concierge, occasional rat problem, and a homeless shelter next door. I will say though that I’m still looking to move out of Toronto, because the Canadian job market is a total dead end with low ambition. If you want to do big in life, the United States is where it’s at.
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Student dorms, if that’s what you mean by student building, tend to have inflated prices. It’s the same in Toronto, and also why a lot of students move off campus after first or second year.
You can get a decent one bedroom for 2500 in Toronto. Waterloo rent prices is just simply outrageous esp those condos on philip street
Currently live downtown. I pay 2900 for a 2 bed but when I was looking I found some beautiful 1 bed apartments for 2500-2600. I once rented out a bedroom in a 3 bed 2 bath apartment where the total rent was around 3000. There are definitely some good places in Toronto if you get lucky and find them
You can get some nice ass 2 bedroom apartments for 3-4K USD in NYC right in Brooklyn/Manhattan 170K here or 180K in NYC its pretty much a wash.
Median 2 bedroom rent in Manhattan is 5-6k bro. https://www.zumper.com/rent-research/manhattan-ny Even 1 bedrooms are exceeding 4k.
I used the first result in google and it was apartments dot com Gave me hundreds of nice units for 3-4K
"Nice" 2-bedroom units are not in Manhattan. You probably saw them in Brooklyn, and away from the gentrified waterfront like Dumbo, Williamsburg, and more into deeper Brooklyn like Bushwick.
Mate, forget about it, this sub is a Toronto circle jerk, they downvote anyone who says otherwise. I’m reading these comments and going out of my mind - OP is about to lose 40-50% of their income, adjusting for exchange rate and 401K matching. They are moving from, I presume NYC to Toronto and people are saying Toronto is so much better. They are saying the cost of living is cheaper in Toronto, FFS. They are saying the quality of life (!) is better in Toronto than it is in NYC. They are saying OP will qualify for a mortgage to afford a detached home in GTA, with just CAD175K, ahahahaha! These folks are completely delusional.
What is so controversial about cost of living is cheaper in Toronto compared to NYC?
Because it’s not entirely true. While rent is higher in NYC, just about everything else is cheaper, dollar-for-dollar. Travel to Europe? Way cheaper. Groceries? Check. Clothing? Check. Durable goods? Check. Cars, gas? Check. Average restaurant bill? Check. I’ve lived and worked in NYC. Only time it felt great was when loonie was at par with the buck. And then OP will be poorer in Europe where they intend to travel (they are from there), because loonie is down the drain as far as exchange rate to Euro goes. My salary hasn’t changed drastically since around 2013 when loonie was at par. I used to make $170K at the time, I make around $200K now, give or take. But I became about 40% poorer relative to Europeans and Americans. My salary should be around $230K now just to keep even with what I had 10 years ago.
Buddy you probably haven't been in NYC for a while. I live here. Rent is for sure cheaper in Toronto, and while other items aren't as excessive as rent, it is still more expensive especially when you adjust for currency. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Canada&city1=Toronto&country2=United+States&city2=New+York%2C+NY It was probably better when currency was at parity. But since it's not, it's an automatic 30% increase on top of the sticker price when you convert.
My friend recektt moved back from a job in Manhattan...she was paying $3200USD for a junior 1 bedroom (about 500 sq ft).
OP I actually just did the opposite move. Toronto to NYC with very similar salary numbers to yours. I can say that your quality of life will be much better in Toronto with 170k cad compared to 185k usd. The conversion is meaningless because cost of living is almost the same in numerical terms. What you will notice is that quality of life gets better. You’ll get newer, larger, and nicer places to live for similar amounts of money. There will be less compromises compared to NYC. Also worth noting that at 170k CAD your average tax rate in Toronto will actually be lower than NYC since there is no city tax. 34% NYC vs 30.5% in Ontario.
Thanks, appreciate these details.
Fiancée and I just did an extensive calculation of this as he’s moving from SF back to Toronto and it’s about the same $205k usd -> 180k cad. You could have a bougie lifestyle here for way less than what you would spend at nyc/sf plus average taxes are still low at this income level.
I’m moving from NYC.
I did both NYC and Toronto. People talking about FX here is talking out of their ass because in Toronto, a meal may be $50 cad but in NY similar meals will be $50usd or more. So exchange rate is irrelevant here unless you’re planning to save a lot. COL wise I’d say they are comparable and maybe slightly cheaper here with the salaries you stated. The biggest caveat for me is the food scene. NY food is miles better than Toronto if that’s what you’re considering as well. Also, Toronto is not what it is precovid and a lot of the places are becoming sketchy and way more homeless people (that are more aggressive than the NY ones) I’d say if you think there’s a career growth with the move, do it. I moved back to Toronto for family that’s why
You’ll be disappointed
I mean its comparable to Chicago but without the crime and the plus is better food.
There are pockets of Toronto that are similar to NYC. It’s also a lot cleaner here, and food is better quality (we have stricter laws about what goes into food, how it’s made or raised, what ingredients are allowed, etc.)
Are you nuts? Restaurant scene in NYC is light years better than Toronto. Who are you all, people?
I’d ask for $185k CAD. I wouldn’t compare the converted currency. It’s not like you’ll be earning USD in Canada and CAD in the US. Just compare rents, groceries, etc in relation to your new Canadian income don’t over think it. And imo I think you’ll actually come out ahead in taxes since you won’t be paying NYC local tax, we don’t have a third city income tax in Canada. The only shock is the crazy sales tax and some food items namely meat, dairy, eggs, butter are a lot more expensive in Canada. You can rent a very nice one bed condo downtown for $2.2k-2.4k. Check out realtor.ca, Kijiji, FB marketplace, viewit.ca, and even Craigslist. You’ll have your own laundry, gym, and a lot of condo buildings have pools. If you want a den for an office space think $2.5k. The same can definitely not be said for NYC lol. My question to you is, will moving to Toronto hurt or benefit your career growth?
I agree that's why in theory I'm *ok* with the adjustment. I'm paid in CAD spending in CAD not paid in CAD spending in USD. Though when it comes to savings it's literally 30% less which has a massive impact long term even if 2 years, especially not being able to contribute do 401K, IRA, HSA. And when it comes to visiting my family in Europe or vacations it's 50% than a EUR. Thanks for your input on cost and housing. It's true for NYC you'd be looking at $5K minimum for a nice condo. Career wise it's the same, I just don't have much choice (U.S immigration type thing).
What is your current city?
Idk what most of these commenters are saying considering I’m sure most have never lived in the US. Toronto is a word class city, with that salary, your quality of life will be better than most places in the US. Toronto is New York light, with that it means you still have great food, social life, events but without the garbage/ piss ridden streets. The subway isn’t as good but it’s still great, the city doesn’t have as much culture but it’s still great. It’s not all about the numbers, there are quality of life improvements you simply don’t read on paper
If you care more about non-monetary things, then Toronto is a fantastic place to raise kids. I took a pay cut to move here from the states and am so happy I did.
If you are coming from NYC then the cost of living is significantly lower here in Toronto. It never hurts to ask. Probably a 2 bedroom in downtown, or maybe a townhouse in the suburb.
As in a 1-bedroom isn’t $4K?
No, more like 2.5k- 3K in downtown. You can check [https://housesigma.com/](https://housesigma.com/)
170k in Toronto will buy you a decent place. Rents here or high, but not New York high. You can get a reasonable quality two bedroom apartment for under 3000 a month. Less if you don't want to live downtown. Higher end executive apartments come on over $4000 a month. Generally speaking the quality of life here is very good. It's safe, there's a shit ton of stuff to do, but whatever you're into Toronto has it. Great theater scene, great music scene, great bar club scene, lots of incredible food from all around the world. Worth it financially? Maybe maybe not. Obviously your investments won't go as far in $ US.
Buy you a decent place ? You won't even qualify
Ask for $185k and see what they say
Salary cut isn't too huge. I know the 30% cut is big on paper, but Toronto is still much cheaper than SF or NY or Seattle (assuming your tech job is one of those places). Not just rent, food and social life is relatively much cheaper in Toronto, and sadly there's less happening in Toronto versus those cities so you tend to spend less too (lived in both places, and spend a lot of time in US). However, the quality of career would definitely take a huge hit and that's something I didn't realize until after a few years. Even if you work remotely for the same company, there's a feeling you're missing out on in person collaborations, or interesting projects, or just being around a lot of really smart and ambitious people. Canada does not really have a home grown tech industry, and if your career is your priority you'll definitely find it to be really lacking. After a few years of being in Toronto, I'm finding myself wanting to move back to feel excited about my career again. As much as people like to hype it up, Toronto is by no means the next Bay Area, Silicon Valley or whatever
This. Most Canadians who want to get involved in tech, leave Canada. Not only for the better salaries, but also because the FAANG companies that do have offices here, don’t hire for eng jobs here. Brain drain is a huge issue.
That is basically a 60k reduction in USD but depending on where ur coming from the lower cost of living in Canada should be able to offset that and it’s not just free healthcare lots of things are more affordable here compared to say SF or NYC, TO is expensive AF but with whatever u have saved up along with that salary I think u can mortgage a one bedroom condo in south Etobicoke or even buy outright depending on how much u have saved up, u can easily fine one that’s 450-500k CAD and still easily access DT through the street car although u will need a car to get around locally, if u can get a 185k increase that would beneficial for retirement but Canada is not too bad and u can definitely go with that, IK this isn’t a forever move but u may be willing to settle here permanently whether or not u like it but considering everything going on in the US i think u will be much happier here.
Cost wise it’s pretty much the same with $185k USD and $170k CAD in a similar city, maybe with a shinier apartment in Toronto if compared to Manhattan or SF. But if you’re in tech or anything future driven, the things you do might decline in quality. Also I’ve done the reverse move, with a bit higher salary than this (around 20%) and my lifestyle is the same as in Toronto in Jersey city. I’d definitely try to go as close to the conversion equivalent to $170k USD in CAD as you can, so around 195-200k, if you get 185, it’s fine. Because I got the same number + 10% from CAD to USD (so the extra 30% in exchange as well), so the deal you’re getting is definitely better for your company than you.
Toronto is an amazing city. Honestly I’d do it
I moved just like you thinking I would go back to the US in a few yrs. Fell in love with Canada and never went back. Salaries are undoubtedly lower here but the work life balance, quality of life, infrastructure, social support is amazing and hence, I strongly believe in the long run, you are more likely to be happier here!
Everyone pretends that CA salaries are what you make in the states. That's just not the case. If you're coming from CA sure but that's the peak of the whole country. 170k is a very livable salary in Toronto. It is expensive here tho. But other things like health care/toll roads/etc cost WAY less. I worked with a guy who came from the states and he thinks he's doing better here due to all the things he's not paying for out of pocket. Again tho that depends on your situation very much. There's a lot of "hidden fees" in the states people rarely account for. There's also bullets and violence. Which you may take as snark but it's really not. The aggression of random people in the states is not normal and you'll be werided out by it when you get away from it for long enough. Millions of dudes sleeping by loaded guns. It's crazy. So it also depends the price you put on safety and normalcy in society.
More like 35% less, not to be nitpick, but that 5% means more the more money there is…
With this salary, your housing options are pretty much "whatever you want" in terms of apartments. Maybe not a full on house down town. Your take home is going to be around $11k a month. 2beds start around $3000 and 3beds probably around $4000. You'll probably pay less in utilities as it's very uncommon to pay for water and heating ("hydro" means electricity). You won't have any medical expenses. Canada is not the place to make piles of money, but you may be surprised at how much less you spend vs a large American City (source: living in a large American city right now). I don't think there's any harm in negotiating your salary.
Lol. 10% lower aside of exchange rate? buddy? You are 30% lower with the exchange rate. But that’s not all. Your tax bill is going to be 20-30% higher. Your cost of living in Toronto is going to be through the roof. If you don’t own a property in Toronto 170k is not going to get you far, forget starting a family. You are doing it wrong - people move the other way.
This is crazy, not only are you going to make less but Toronto is crazy expensive, you’re going to pay like 40% in taxes. Rent is insane. Are you going to have a car? Insurance is a lot higher. You doubt you’ll put any money into your savings while you’re here. Any chance you can keep your job and work remotely? Just come here in the summer and then go back.
Try checking the income taxes too
I make $150k CAD. I can comfortably afford to rent a 1 bedroom + den apartment downtown. Depends what kind of place you plan on getting. If you want a house, you’re going to be paying upwards of a million dollars for something that isn’t an abandoned crack house or in a really bad neighborhood. Not sure what that will cost monthly, as I haven’t even bothered looking. But a $750k house with a 100k down payment is around 4-5k a month.
To those individuals going on about ridiculous cost of housing in Toronto, the average 2 bedroom apartment rental here in Toronto is $3500($2600 US$) versus $6750($5000 US$) in New York city and $5250($3900 US$) in San Francisco. Yes housing have become expensive here. That is what happens when your city becomes a popular place to live. It's no longer 1975. Welcome to the big time. Blame the following for helping elevate Toronto on the world stage: Drake, the weekend, Biebs, Rush, Neil Young, Shawn Mendes, Kiefer, Mike Myers, Marget Atwood, Jim Carey, John Candy, Lorne Micheals, the Rapters, the Blue Jays, U of T, Keanu Reeves, our impressive high ranking for best city in just about every catagory.
Toronto economy is fragile ajobs arent stable I wouldn't move .you aren't guaranteed to keep your job atm
I would personally do it because I love Canada and Toronto and there is less visa stress, but career-wise it may not be a great move, to be honest. There are lesser opportunities here and cost of living is higher with lower base pay.
Don’t move to Canada. Simple.
Have you investigated how you will be affected by income tax?
I wouldn’t leave the U.S. for Canada. We have better opportunities here and we are far better. Higher dollar, more flights internationally and everything.
Op may I ask what kind of experience you have like tech stack, years of experience etc.?
Also- $180K USD in NY is the same as $145K CAD in Toronto, adjusted for taxes and cost of living. See numbeo- https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=New+York%2C+NY&country2=Canada&city2=Toronto&amount=180000&displayCurrency=USD
Cost of living is nuts here in Toronto. One bed is 2200 to 2400 at least. Grocery and eating out will be 300-400 very easily. If you want to buy a car that'll cost 1k at least. Total expenses will 4.5k
I will assume you have a job waiting... if you don't then you might want to do a lot more digging ... software developers earn more in the US, have better opportunity, your bills are less, cost of a home is less, entertainment... less, etc in some cases shockingly less.
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average house price in the US is 400,000. the average house price in Canada is 650,000 ... whole hell of a lot of difference there bud. in 2015 our ave home price was 400,000
as far as things like cell phone goes we are pretty much the second highest on earth only beat by South Africa ... everything is more here and that is the point
My guy. Don’t do it
Fuck, no! $185K USD is, basically, $250K straight conversion. And if you go by buying power - that’s more like $300K. Canadian companies don’t pay that much. Cost of living in GTA is insane, compared to even Buffalo less than 2 hrs away. Hard no.
Kinda silly to compare the most desirable pocket of the entire country to a city that has little to no economic viability and heavily depopulated since the 60s. Of course cost of living is going to be higher in Toronto than a rust belt town, what the hell?
Why in the world would you leave the US for Canada? Are you running from something?
no - not a good move, especially if you like to travel.
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wait, 170k is middle class? ☠️
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I've been in poverty, apparently.
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If you’re looking to make more money. Stay in the US.
My son calls Toronto “baby New York.” Make of that what you will.
Why are you considering the move to Toronto? I’m assuming this is gross pay and doesn’t capture the differences in taxes, which should further reduce the Canadian salary I’d personally stay in the US and make frequent visits to Canada. I dropped my Canadian residency last year and the tax savings alone are meaningful
Why would you move to Canada? We are full and our economy is in worse shape compared to the uss. Canadians are fighting hard to get into the usa for job opportunities.
US. Should be a no brainer lol
If it’s a one year thing and you want to experience living in Toronto, then go for it. But I’d say no either way
Your salary is lowered a lot more than that. Taxes in Ontario are higher than anywhere in the USA It’s not worth it
NYC has municipal income tax and at least we have free healthcare sure wait times but i rather not pay thousands of dollars just to patch up a broken arm of 300k for heart surgery.
USA USA USA. Period. Don’t ever think of coming here. I still regret my decision of not staying in the US. Hopefully I’ll be back in the following years.
What’s wrong with Canada that makes u want to go back to the US
Don't come here. This country is a dumpster fire. A lot of Canadians are moving out of country.
Apart from the obvious salary/currency/real estate posts, as someone who’s been there and done that - I would prefer (good) American health insurance in a good city over OHIP any day of the week. In NYC I had plenty of options to get seen without a hassle, whereas I continually hear horror stories here. (Personally experienced a 9 hour wait for a single stitch)
I would only do that when you ready to retire.
That's a massive pay cut.
Are you nuts?
The more important question is what is forcing you to move to Canada and is it worth it for less money and more expenses. Immigration? Keep in mind Immigration is not as easy as it used to be 5 years ago.