Just because something is a norm doesn't mean it's safe or okay.
She was probably expressing concern for you, given that drinking while driving increases the likelihood of an accident.
I don't think throwing terms around is always helpful but if you had younger siblings the therapist could be wondering about their safety.
I don't think they need to concede but they should be able to respect your desire to not talk about it.
If you have younger siblings that he's transporting, she will be unable likely to stop talking about it. It's a safety concern that she will have to address at least potentially
There is no need for concern for myself, as I no longer live at home. But I do have a younger sibling. I don't think my dad does it anymore, it was far worse when I was pretty young. Are you saying that this would be something they would have to report?
I would be happy to no longer talk about it, it was offhand, I didn't intend for a whole discussion. I get you are saying it is unsafe--I wouldn't drink and drive with children--but it was okay in the sense that I think other people in my community did it.
It wasn't okay, just a cultural norm, where I'm from, it's sadly a very acceptable practice, but also shouldn't be, its pretty selfish and dangerous.
I don't know if they would have to report it or not, but for frame of reference, if a client told me their dad was actively drinking and driving, and transporting other people it, his behavior is a risk of causing serious harm/death to others.
You could ask her directly, and she should be able to clarify if its something she would feel worth reporting, it shouldn't be if its a historical issue.
But again, it would certainly be appropriate for you to ask her directly.
I think you are confusing “normal” as in what’s acceptable where you are from with “normal” as in, people who have a healthy relationship with alcohol do not do that. I think this is what your therapist was responding too. So yes, maybe it is normal for you, but if your dad always smoked pot while driving you would probably see that as normal too. Either one should not be consumed while behind the wheel.
Okay. But fundamentally, if somebody is drinking behind the wheel, it is no different than drinking before driving if they stay under the legal limit. I understand legally this isn't the case though.
Therapy and this thread is making me feel like I have to because if I don't, nobody else will. I also feel like I have to defend myself and the fact that I didn't come from alcoholics that choose booze over their kids. That is what people are saying.
Not a therapist, I don’t think it’s right for folks to be assuming that just because of this one example you’ve provided (drinking while driving) automatically means your dad was a deadbeat, when they don’t know you, your dad, or the experiences you’ve shared, and I’m sorry people are making you feel like this.
However, I’m wondering if you would be open to this idea; if you feel you have grown up with a loving dad that *didn’t* “choose booze over their kids”, that’s great and you can recognize this, by defending him when someone incorrectly assumes that he did worse. But this can go hand in hand with recognizing that he can be a loving, caring, and present father while still having his own problems. Just because you’re defending his love and support, doesn’t mean you have to defend his problems as well. Which, I know you don’t see drinking and driving as a problem, but fact of the matter is it’s against the law for a reason.
Yeah, that is fair enough. I don't think it is as big of a risk as this sub is making it out to be, but I understand that drinking while driving isn't the best, and he did it alot. So for him it was a repeating risky behavior--maybe that is a problem--I don't know. At the same time, I don't think he was knowingly endangering my siblings and I. He loved us and was protective of us.
I am not making excuses for, but I am defending his behavior, sure. I think I have a different perspective on it (and maybe a more culturally-informed perspective then my therapist who I love but is a yuppy and some of the people here). Why? Well if I don't, who will? If the behavior is as horrific and unhealthy as people are saying, certainly there is a reflection on me somewhere in there.
edit: I AM HONESTLY ANSWERING THE QUESTION jesus christ if I am missing something tell me the passive agressive downvotes are shitty.
Just because something is cultural does not mean it is correct. I personally know of 4 people who lost their lives to a drunk driver. The science is there, driving impaired is dangerous no matter what culture says about it. Some cultures are fine with chain smoking, that doesn't remotely mean it's healthy or good. I understand getting defensive about your culture, but you have to recognise that cultural things can be super messed up.
Yeah, I can concede that it is dangerous for most people. I guess to the extent that my dad did it, he wasn't drunk, it was just a couple beers. But I know people that have been killed by people over the legal limit as well and that is not okay.
I don't think it is fair to call somebody an alcoholic if they have not been evaluated by a doctor. I haven't even said how much he drinks, so people are really just guessing using that word.
Your therapist isn’t putting up a billboard proclaiming your father to be an alcoholic. She’s giving you therapy for your issues. What is there to be “fair” about? I’m NAT, but I’m a lawyer. Where I live, when you get charged with drunk driving first offense, you’re offered “sobriety court” rather than a criminal conviction. If you complete AA and don’t consume alcohol for a year, you can expunge all criminal history on your record. Why? Because if you get pulled over and arrested for drunk driving, you’re an alcoholic. Your relationship with alcohol is unhealthy, which is evidenced by the fact that you risked your life for it. Naming the problem isn’t harming the defendant, it’s helping them. Your therapist is only trying to help YOU by calling a spade a spade. Don’t get caught up in the semantics or somehow morph this into a situation of “fairness.” That’s not the work of therapy.
No--but they implied it. I believe they just said that his behavior is indicative of a problematic relationship with alcohol and his usage could point towards alcoholism.
Drinking while driving is definitely problematic. His drinking put himself and others at risk of harm. Doing it regularly? Yeah that’s a problematic relationship with alcohol in my opinion. I wanted to comment on the culture piece though:
“For men, consuming five or more drinks on any day or 15 or more per week” is considered heavy drinking according to the NIAAA. That’s from a health institute in the states, and each country will have its own guidelines on alcohol consumption. For example in Canada, there is no safe limit. In Uk people of both genders should have no more than 14 standard drinks per week (standard there being 8g of pure alcohol), and have at least one day of not drinking.
There can absolutely be a cultural element to alcohol consumption. For example, drinking and pub culture is a big part of British society. In Eastern Europe, binge drinking is a regular pattern, with periods of dry time in between binges. Although these drinking patterns tend to be the norm, they still carry risks. A persons drinking being aligned with how their culture drinks doesn’t protect them from the harm that comes from drinking alcohol.
It can be normal given the culture, and problematic at the same time. For example, Britain’s women lead the world in binge drinking according to the OECD. Should no one be concerned, just because cultural factors enable this? Of course we should be concerned, look into why it’s happening, and figure out ways to prevent binge drinking if not for the individual then for public safety. That’s why most drinking guidelines around the world have gotten lower with time and as we learn more about the harmful impacts of alcohol.
I agree with you entirely. I think that people are less liable for the actions that they take when they are ingrained in a culture though. Regardless of how safe those cultural norms are. It does not mean that they shouldn't be understood, but at the same time, my therapist wasn't appreciating the culture I was trying to inform them of.
From your description of your father, what the therapist said was correct. Why do you disagree that it's possible that he has a problem with alcohol? Just because you don't think that drinking and driving is a problem, legally it is. Many states also have open container laws also.
A lot of times family members are not aware of how someone's drinking causes problems in a person's life. They are able to hide it from their family and usually only get help when it's made public. Is it possible that what the therapist said made you reflect on your own drinking and that's why it upset you?
Maybe, we have been talking about my drinking in prior sessions so this felt like a backhanded way of them criticizing me. It is like they can say the words "your father" at the beginning of a sentence and then say something they intended to direct at me.
That’s called functioning alcoholism. Not every drunk is abusive or drinking away money. I understand if you feel his drinking wasn’t impactful on your childhood.
That’s probably a best case scenario. He did put you in potential danger by driving drunk and with open alcohol in the car.
If he still does he risk harming himself his family and god forbid others. I think that’s what people are trying to get at. It’s irresponsible and selfish. It doesn’t matter how good of a driver you are and I think that’s what you’re missing.
He did endanger others he just got lucky that the consequence of those actions did not come to fruition. It doesn’t mean it’s okay.
I’m from a rural town too. 30 years ago this was normal but you have to understand that drinking while driving wasn’t made illegal for no reason. Your father isn’t a horrible guy from the sounds of it but it’s okay to understand he could have harmed others.!
I mean, like I said, I would not drink and drive. I understand it isn't the best decision to make, and yeah, I know the laws are there for good reason. Thank you.
It can be considered more socially acceptable to drink and drive in some communities than others and also still be an unhealthy and dangerous behavior. These things are not mutually exclusive. It sounds like maybe what is is bothering you here is the implication that your father intentionally and knowingly put you in danger when you feel that it is a misrepresentation of the situation because his behavior could be considered normal in the community he lived in. To you he just did what others did and it wasn't intending to choose to put you in danger. That may be true at the same time as the reality that you were in a dangerous situation becaus it is dangerous to drink and drive. I can understand why the therapist saying your father didn't care enough to keep you safe could be really bothersome if you feel that to him the decision to drink and drive was normal and not a risk to your safety. It is very possible that what he knew and believed did not line up with the reality of the dangers if drinking and driving and he did not think he was putting you in danger. So that is a different issue. It may be more useful to view him not as someone who chose to prioritize alcohol over your safety, but as someone who loved you but didn't always know the best and therefore maybe didn't always do the best. Our parents can love and care for us and also be imperfect and fail in ways that deeply affect us despite their best intentions.
If this is bothering you then it is important to talk about with your therapist. I think addressing this could be really valuable.
Thank you. Yes, that is really what upset me. I appreciate the reframe. They sort of insisted that my dad chose alcohol over my siblings and my safety. I also think that drinking and driving is probably more risky depending on where somebody lives, and my therapist didn't appreciate that. I live in a metropolitian area now, and I think it would be far riskier to drink here than on gravel roads at home.
She suggested it because he did. Your father chose alcohol and the potential negative consequences of drinking and driving over you and your siblings. Full stop.
Funny. I mean, clearly I don't agree (which I would except to be an important part of determining whether or not that is true) but I appreciate your perspective.
Right, but you can understand that one seems crazier than the other. The neighbors down the road had shitty parents but my dad actually stepped up and drove all of us to school when their father was arrested (for the meth production).
It's true that norms around alcohol consumption vary from culture to culture and subculture to subculture, but that does not mean that all norms around alcohol consumption are equally benign. Rates of children being harmed by their parents' drinking aren't the same everywhere, and perhaps unsurprisingly, cultures and subcultures that normalize heavy drinking tend to have much higher rates of children being harmed by parents' alcohol behaviors.
I'm not exactly trying to defend your therapist here-- it does sound like her handwringing was more than a little over the top and alienating to you-- but I am pushing back against the idea that just because drinking and driving was common where you grew up, that must mean that it was also OK. If I learned that one of my clients was frequently in a car driven by an intoxicated parent, I'd consider that worth taking a closer look at too.
I understand that it is more dangerous than driving sober, and that culture doesn't impact the way that alcohol metabolizes. However, the few beers did not make my dad drunk or impaired and he was driving back roads to get us to sports practices. It wasn't like interstate driving. I think it was okay because I never felt at risk, but I wouldn't do the same if I had kids. I understand it is illegal and that for most people drinking and driving carries a risk.
Oh absolutely. While I don't condone driving drunk under any circumstances, it's clear that you survived the experience so it couldn't have been too terrible in itself. As an educated guess, I'd guess that your therapist wasn't concerned that you had been traumatized by the drinking and driving itself. I'd guess that she saw that as a red flag that suggested that maybe your household had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and wanted to get more information about other ways that might have impacted you.
That makes more sense then. I don't think that there were any big ones, but I would certainly be more willing to talk about broader impacts of my dad's drinking then the driving thing. Thank you.
we tend to normalize things our parents do, making it hard for us to be critical of their actions. Having grown up in rural parts of the US, I am familiar with the drinking in the car thing - but I don't think it is the norm. Most people, don't do that generally, let alone with kids in the car.
Your father may also not have been an alcoholic, drunk, or reckless but the action does speak to someone flaunting norms in a way that would be hard to discern from the actions from alcoholism or recklessness. If he was willing to drive with open beers, did he have any issues driving home from the bar with a buzz? Would he drink prior then hop in a car? Hop in a car with you?
You could of had the dad that NEVER drank except for every time he got in a car he had ONE beer just for the excitement of breaking some rules. In that case it probably wasn't any real danger, maybe the excitement made him a more alert driver. However - I'm guessing it wasn't only one beer - it wasn't his first beer. So you might just feel what he did was normal because that was normal to you.
FYI - I had a very similar experience with a therapist and my father's name calling and put downs. Having my dad tell me I was a moron, idiot, brat, looser, bastard - I normalize it, even now, not realizing this shocks other people. I kinda understood the physical abuse wasn't acceptable but still don't really get the verbal thing.
I think therapists put themselves in emotional state to be empathetic. It's helpful for them to be on our side, but they also see lots of other issues and trauma, and being people too, sometimes that bleeds through them. It's possible your therapist has worked with alcoholism in the past or victims of drunk driving. Discussing you didn't feel heard and asking where her emotional response came from in those moments maybe helpful.
Thank you for sharing this, and you are right that they weren't his first beers of the day. I would like to discuss it further with her because it was really upsetting to me, and I hope that it doesn't ruin our relationship. It did make me feel pretty ostracized though.
It sounds like this weighs heavily on you. You are doing the right thing by talking to your therapist. A parent shouldn’t cause this kind of stress on their children. At the end of the day, you may not know if he has a drinking problem. But it is affecting you. I’ve been there and I’m sorry you are going through this. My therapist helped me navigate my feelings regarding my dad’s drinking. There was a lot more to unpack than I thought. I wish you well!
Yeah, maybe it doesn't matter if he does or doesn't. I have a slight chip on my shoulder from being from a poor rural area and I think that was flaring up. I am going to think about continuing to talk about it or atleast talking about this session next session because it was such a mess. Thank you :)
It is difficult and painful to hear negative things about our parents.
They likely implied your father was an alcoholic because you described problematic drinking behaviour. There are lots of types of alcoholism - some don’t drink everyday but binge very hard every few weeks.
A person can also be an alcoholic and a loving father, a good person.
Student therapist here. But from a non-therapeutic perspective, I’ve had this same debate with people. Many people in my friend group have made the same arguments as you, like “it’s no different than having a drink and then getting in the car”. The fact is, open containers are illegal in most of the country and drinking while driving shows a blatant disregard for the safety of others. It means you can’t wait however long it’ll take to get to your destination to drink. It’s not healthy. People should be able to wait. I probably wouldn’t have been so expressive, shaking my head and sighing, like your therapist though. That’s a bit inappropriate and not helpful to clients.
Yes, what my therapist would do when I was answering the questions was upsetting, thank you. I am sympathetic to the waiting thing because we were like a 25 minute drive into town, which is quite long. I understand it is unsafe in a lot of cases though.
Yeah, what she was doing was wildly inappropriate. If you’re comfortable, I’d honestly bring it up in your next session and tell her how it made you feel. She could use the feedback one way or another.
Okay, well that 4 beers/mo is a crazy metric for alcoholism if that is true.
edit: why is this downvoted? Nobody in the real world would say somebody is an alcoholic if they drink 4 beers in a day much less in a month.
He recently upset my younger sibling because he lunged at her. She got out of the way and wasn't hurt (he has never hit us or anything), but it upset me because she called me crying about it. My therapist seemed quite upset so I was trying to give more perspecitve on his character like he would take us camping and to sports practices, but you couldn't drink from his cups in the car lol.
So, I’m not going to say or hint that your father was an alcoholic, but your therapist may be curious about his drinking in terms of how it fits in with managing his emotions.
In this case, it looks like he was barely managing his anger when he lunged at your sister. I’m happy to hear he didn’t physical harm her, but having a parent who is supposed to protect you move to attack you is psychologically upsetting.
Kids can be afraid to show emotion or speak up for fear of aggravating the parent, when it should be the parent who is teaching the child how to self regulate.
Many people use alcohol to calm or mask their emotions, even if they aren’t abusing it or unable to function. If your father didn’t drink, it’s possible he would be physically abusive.
Also, driving drunk is obviously not good either, but I think that’s what your therapist is getting at. It can be hard to think of parents this way, I know.
Yeah, the whole situation made me feel like shit, which is why I brought it up in therapy. When he was drinking it really did improve things. Thanks for sharing this.
You’re welcome!
I would like to gently challenge you to think about if that did actually improve things and what’s causing your father to struggle with his anger ❤️
What? I am saying that is how we got into the conversation. I made a joke that I used to accidentaly drink the cups he had in his middle console because I thought it was soda.
I don't have to be to recognize that drinking while driving is alcoholism.
You sound like you're in denial.
People who aren't alcoholics don't drink and drive.
No its a fact not a generalization.
You can't drink and drive and not be an alcoholic. Part of having a alcohol problem is needing to drink at times that you know you shouldn't be drinking. Such as driving.
If he didn't have an alcohol problem, it wouldn't be a question to choose to drive safely over drinking.
You are in denial.
And why bother posting asking for others thoughts if you're just going to fight and deny every thought that doesn't agree with yours?
I was asking to try to understand if what my therapist said and did was appropriate because it upset me. I wasn't looking for diagnostic impressions for my father from people that have no qualifications to give them.
I’d just like to comment that I have been impressed by how well you have tolerated the challenging feedback you’re getting from the group here. This is a tricky and obviously triggering subject for a lot of people. I don’t agree with the way people are downvoting your responses that they don’t agree with. I get the sense that you’re open to hearing and considering challenging opinions and I don’t agree with the more confrontational approach some of the people here are making.
I think the denial and wanting to defend your father and make up excuses for him is definitely something you should work through in therapy. Take care.
Just because something is a norm doesn't mean it's safe or okay. She was probably expressing concern for you, given that drinking while driving increases the likelihood of an accident. I don't think throwing terms around is always helpful but if you had younger siblings the therapist could be wondering about their safety. I don't think they need to concede but they should be able to respect your desire to not talk about it. If you have younger siblings that he's transporting, she will be unable likely to stop talking about it. It's a safety concern that she will have to address at least potentially
There is no need for concern for myself, as I no longer live at home. But I do have a younger sibling. I don't think my dad does it anymore, it was far worse when I was pretty young. Are you saying that this would be something they would have to report? I would be happy to no longer talk about it, it was offhand, I didn't intend for a whole discussion. I get you are saying it is unsafe--I wouldn't drink and drive with children--but it was okay in the sense that I think other people in my community did it.
It wasn't okay, just a cultural norm, where I'm from, it's sadly a very acceptable practice, but also shouldn't be, its pretty selfish and dangerous. I don't know if they would have to report it or not, but for frame of reference, if a client told me their dad was actively drinking and driving, and transporting other people it, his behavior is a risk of causing serious harm/death to others. You could ask her directly, and she should be able to clarify if its something she would feel worth reporting, it shouldn't be if its a historical issue. But again, it would certainly be appropriate for you to ask her directly.
I see--I may ask before talking about it anymore. I appreciate the help. Thank you.
drinking while driving, especially with children in the car, is not normal or healthy.
It was normal in the rural area where I lived. There are long gravel roads with hardly any traffic and like no police.
I think you are confusing “normal” as in what’s acceptable where you are from with “normal” as in, people who have a healthy relationship with alcohol do not do that. I think this is what your therapist was responding too. So yes, maybe it is normal for you, but if your dad always smoked pot while driving you would probably see that as normal too. Either one should not be consumed while behind the wheel.
Okay. But fundamentally, if somebody is drinking behind the wheel, it is no different than drinking before driving if they stay under the legal limit. I understand legally this isn't the case though.
You are making excuses for his behavior. Why is that?
Sorry, are you a therapist?
I’m a therapist, and I’m wondering why you’re making excuses for his behavior?
Therapy and this thread is making me feel like I have to because if I don't, nobody else will. I also feel like I have to defend myself and the fact that I didn't come from alcoholics that choose booze over their kids. That is what people are saying.
Not a therapist, I don’t think it’s right for folks to be assuming that just because of this one example you’ve provided (drinking while driving) automatically means your dad was a deadbeat, when they don’t know you, your dad, or the experiences you’ve shared, and I’m sorry people are making you feel like this. However, I’m wondering if you would be open to this idea; if you feel you have grown up with a loving dad that *didn’t* “choose booze over their kids”, that’s great and you can recognize this, by defending him when someone incorrectly assumes that he did worse. But this can go hand in hand with recognizing that he can be a loving, caring, and present father while still having his own problems. Just because you’re defending his love and support, doesn’t mean you have to defend his problems as well. Which, I know you don’t see drinking and driving as a problem, but fact of the matter is it’s against the law for a reason.
Yeah, that is fair enough. I don't think it is as big of a risk as this sub is making it out to be, but I understand that drinking while driving isn't the best, and he did it alot. So for him it was a repeating risky behavior--maybe that is a problem--I don't know. At the same time, I don't think he was knowingly endangering my siblings and I. He loved us and was protective of us.
I’m not but I grew up in a family of alcoholics and mental illness and know the signs. It is a straightforward question that I asked.
I am not making excuses for, but I am defending his behavior, sure. I think I have a different perspective on it (and maybe a more culturally-informed perspective then my therapist who I love but is a yuppy and some of the people here). Why? Well if I don't, who will? If the behavior is as horrific and unhealthy as people are saying, certainly there is a reflection on me somewhere in there. edit: I AM HONESTLY ANSWERING THE QUESTION jesus christ if I am missing something tell me the passive agressive downvotes are shitty.
Just because something is cultural does not mean it is correct. I personally know of 4 people who lost their lives to a drunk driver. The science is there, driving impaired is dangerous no matter what culture says about it. Some cultures are fine with chain smoking, that doesn't remotely mean it's healthy or good. I understand getting defensive about your culture, but you have to recognise that cultural things can be super messed up.
Yeah, I can concede that it is dangerous for most people. I guess to the extent that my dad did it, he wasn't drunk, it was just a couple beers. But I know people that have been killed by people over the legal limit as well and that is not okay.
Just because it's common to behave that way where you grew up, does not make it normal, healthy or okay to do.
Right, well he was not over the legal limit so I would say it is okay but I understand it isn't "healthy".
Just because you lived in a community of alcoholics doesn’t mean you father wasn’t an alcoholic.
I don't think it is fair to call somebody an alcoholic if they have not been evaluated by a doctor. I haven't even said how much he drinks, so people are really just guessing using that word.
Your therapist isn’t putting up a billboard proclaiming your father to be an alcoholic. She’s giving you therapy for your issues. What is there to be “fair” about? I’m NAT, but I’m a lawyer. Where I live, when you get charged with drunk driving first offense, you’re offered “sobriety court” rather than a criminal conviction. If you complete AA and don’t consume alcohol for a year, you can expunge all criminal history on your record. Why? Because if you get pulled over and arrested for drunk driving, you’re an alcoholic. Your relationship with alcohol is unhealthy, which is evidenced by the fact that you risked your life for it. Naming the problem isn’t harming the defendant, it’s helping them. Your therapist is only trying to help YOU by calling a spade a spade. Don’t get caught up in the semantics or somehow morph this into a situation of “fairness.” That’s not the work of therapy.
Thank you for explaining how drunk driving offenses are treated. I didn't know that and it helps me reflect on this a little bit more.
>My father is not an alcoholic. Do your therapist use that term?
No--but they implied it. I believe they just said that his behavior is indicative of a problematic relationship with alcohol and his usage could point towards alcoholism.
Drinking while driving is definitely problematic. His drinking put himself and others at risk of harm. Doing it regularly? Yeah that’s a problematic relationship with alcohol in my opinion. I wanted to comment on the culture piece though: “For men, consuming five or more drinks on any day or 15 or more per week” is considered heavy drinking according to the NIAAA. That’s from a health institute in the states, and each country will have its own guidelines on alcohol consumption. For example in Canada, there is no safe limit. In Uk people of both genders should have no more than 14 standard drinks per week (standard there being 8g of pure alcohol), and have at least one day of not drinking. There can absolutely be a cultural element to alcohol consumption. For example, drinking and pub culture is a big part of British society. In Eastern Europe, binge drinking is a regular pattern, with periods of dry time in between binges. Although these drinking patterns tend to be the norm, they still carry risks. A persons drinking being aligned with how their culture drinks doesn’t protect them from the harm that comes from drinking alcohol. It can be normal given the culture, and problematic at the same time. For example, Britain’s women lead the world in binge drinking according to the OECD. Should no one be concerned, just because cultural factors enable this? Of course we should be concerned, look into why it’s happening, and figure out ways to prevent binge drinking if not for the individual then for public safety. That’s why most drinking guidelines around the world have gotten lower with time and as we learn more about the harmful impacts of alcohol.
I agree with you entirely. I think that people are less liable for the actions that they take when they are ingrained in a culture though. Regardless of how safe those cultural norms are. It does not mean that they shouldn't be understood, but at the same time, my therapist wasn't appreciating the culture I was trying to inform them of.
From your description of your father, what the therapist said was correct. Why do you disagree that it's possible that he has a problem with alcohol? Just because you don't think that drinking and driving is a problem, legally it is. Many states also have open container laws also.
I get that it is illegal. But it didn't negatively impact his life. I thought that was important for something constituting a problem.
A lot of times family members are not aware of how someone's drinking causes problems in a person's life. They are able to hide it from their family and usually only get help when it's made public. Is it possible that what the therapist said made you reflect on your own drinking and that's why it upset you?
Maybe, we have been talking about my drinking in prior sessions so this felt like a backhanded way of them criticizing me. It is like they can say the words "your father" at the beginning of a sentence and then say something they intended to direct at me.
That’s called functioning alcoholism. Not every drunk is abusive or drinking away money. I understand if you feel his drinking wasn’t impactful on your childhood. That’s probably a best case scenario. He did put you in potential danger by driving drunk and with open alcohol in the car. If he still does he risk harming himself his family and god forbid others. I think that’s what people are trying to get at. It’s irresponsible and selfish. It doesn’t matter how good of a driver you are and I think that’s what you’re missing. He did endanger others he just got lucky that the consequence of those actions did not come to fruition. It doesn’t mean it’s okay. I’m from a rural town too. 30 years ago this was normal but you have to understand that drinking while driving wasn’t made illegal for no reason. Your father isn’t a horrible guy from the sounds of it but it’s okay to understand he could have harmed others.!
I mean, like I said, I would not drink and drive. I understand it isn't the best decision to make, and yeah, I know the laws are there for good reason. Thank you.
It can be considered more socially acceptable to drink and drive in some communities than others and also still be an unhealthy and dangerous behavior. These things are not mutually exclusive. It sounds like maybe what is is bothering you here is the implication that your father intentionally and knowingly put you in danger when you feel that it is a misrepresentation of the situation because his behavior could be considered normal in the community he lived in. To you he just did what others did and it wasn't intending to choose to put you in danger. That may be true at the same time as the reality that you were in a dangerous situation becaus it is dangerous to drink and drive. I can understand why the therapist saying your father didn't care enough to keep you safe could be really bothersome if you feel that to him the decision to drink and drive was normal and not a risk to your safety. It is very possible that what he knew and believed did not line up with the reality of the dangers if drinking and driving and he did not think he was putting you in danger. So that is a different issue. It may be more useful to view him not as someone who chose to prioritize alcohol over your safety, but as someone who loved you but didn't always know the best and therefore maybe didn't always do the best. Our parents can love and care for us and also be imperfect and fail in ways that deeply affect us despite their best intentions. If this is bothering you then it is important to talk about with your therapist. I think addressing this could be really valuable.
Thank you. Yes, that is really what upset me. I appreciate the reframe. They sort of insisted that my dad chose alcohol over my siblings and my safety. I also think that drinking and driving is probably more risky depending on where somebody lives, and my therapist didn't appreciate that. I live in a metropolitian area now, and I think it would be far riskier to drink here than on gravel roads at home.
She suggested it because he did. Your father chose alcohol and the potential negative consequences of drinking and driving over you and your siblings. Full stop.
Funny. I mean, clearly I don't agree (which I would except to be an important part of determining whether or not that is true) but I appreciate your perspective.
"drinking while driving is not that crazy" I mean...
My neighbors made meth. I think that was crazy. A few beers or a mixed drink is not crazy.
They can both be crazy! And they ARE BOTH CRAZY SITUATIONS.
Right, but you can understand that one seems crazier than the other. The neighbors down the road had shitty parents but my dad actually stepped up and drove all of us to school when their father was arrested (for the meth production).
Oh cool so he was driving other peoples children while drinking too??
Yeah, children of meth addicts--to school. Have some perspective.
It's true that norms around alcohol consumption vary from culture to culture and subculture to subculture, but that does not mean that all norms around alcohol consumption are equally benign. Rates of children being harmed by their parents' drinking aren't the same everywhere, and perhaps unsurprisingly, cultures and subcultures that normalize heavy drinking tend to have much higher rates of children being harmed by parents' alcohol behaviors. I'm not exactly trying to defend your therapist here-- it does sound like her handwringing was more than a little over the top and alienating to you-- but I am pushing back against the idea that just because drinking and driving was common where you grew up, that must mean that it was also OK. If I learned that one of my clients was frequently in a car driven by an intoxicated parent, I'd consider that worth taking a closer look at too.
I understand that it is more dangerous than driving sober, and that culture doesn't impact the way that alcohol metabolizes. However, the few beers did not make my dad drunk or impaired and he was driving back roads to get us to sports practices. It wasn't like interstate driving. I think it was okay because I never felt at risk, but I wouldn't do the same if I had kids. I understand it is illegal and that for most people drinking and driving carries a risk.
Oh absolutely. While I don't condone driving drunk under any circumstances, it's clear that you survived the experience so it couldn't have been too terrible in itself. As an educated guess, I'd guess that your therapist wasn't concerned that you had been traumatized by the drinking and driving itself. I'd guess that she saw that as a red flag that suggested that maybe your household had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and wanted to get more information about other ways that might have impacted you.
That makes more sense then. I don't think that there were any big ones, but I would certainly be more willing to talk about broader impacts of my dad's drinking then the driving thing. Thank you.
we tend to normalize things our parents do, making it hard for us to be critical of their actions. Having grown up in rural parts of the US, I am familiar with the drinking in the car thing - but I don't think it is the norm. Most people, don't do that generally, let alone with kids in the car. Your father may also not have been an alcoholic, drunk, or reckless but the action does speak to someone flaunting norms in a way that would be hard to discern from the actions from alcoholism or recklessness. If he was willing to drive with open beers, did he have any issues driving home from the bar with a buzz? Would he drink prior then hop in a car? Hop in a car with you? You could of had the dad that NEVER drank except for every time he got in a car he had ONE beer just for the excitement of breaking some rules. In that case it probably wasn't any real danger, maybe the excitement made him a more alert driver. However - I'm guessing it wasn't only one beer - it wasn't his first beer. So you might just feel what he did was normal because that was normal to you. FYI - I had a very similar experience with a therapist and my father's name calling and put downs. Having my dad tell me I was a moron, idiot, brat, looser, bastard - I normalize it, even now, not realizing this shocks other people. I kinda understood the physical abuse wasn't acceptable but still don't really get the verbal thing. I think therapists put themselves in emotional state to be empathetic. It's helpful for them to be on our side, but they also see lots of other issues and trauma, and being people too, sometimes that bleeds through them. It's possible your therapist has worked with alcoholism in the past or victims of drunk driving. Discussing you didn't feel heard and asking where her emotional response came from in those moments maybe helpful.
Thank you for sharing this, and you are right that they weren't his first beers of the day. I would like to discuss it further with her because it was really upsetting to me, and I hope that it doesn't ruin our relationship. It did make me feel pretty ostracized though.
It sounds like this weighs heavily on you. You are doing the right thing by talking to your therapist. A parent shouldn’t cause this kind of stress on their children. At the end of the day, you may not know if he has a drinking problem. But it is affecting you. I’ve been there and I’m sorry you are going through this. My therapist helped me navigate my feelings regarding my dad’s drinking. There was a lot more to unpack than I thought. I wish you well!
Yeah, maybe it doesn't matter if he does or doesn't. I have a slight chip on my shoulder from being from a poor rural area and I think that was flaring up. I am going to think about continuing to talk about it or atleast talking about this session next session because it was such a mess. Thank you :)
It is difficult and painful to hear negative things about our parents. They likely implied your father was an alcoholic because you described problematic drinking behaviour. There are lots of types of alcoholism - some don’t drink everyday but binge very hard every few weeks. A person can also be an alcoholic and a loving father, a good person.
Thank you, that is affirming to hear.
Student therapist here. But from a non-therapeutic perspective, I’ve had this same debate with people. Many people in my friend group have made the same arguments as you, like “it’s no different than having a drink and then getting in the car”. The fact is, open containers are illegal in most of the country and drinking while driving shows a blatant disregard for the safety of others. It means you can’t wait however long it’ll take to get to your destination to drink. It’s not healthy. People should be able to wait. I probably wouldn’t have been so expressive, shaking my head and sighing, like your therapist though. That’s a bit inappropriate and not helpful to clients.
Yes, what my therapist would do when I was answering the questions was upsetting, thank you. I am sympathetic to the waiting thing because we were like a 25 minute drive into town, which is quite long. I understand it is unsafe in a lot of cases though.
Yeah, what she was doing was wildly inappropriate. If you’re comfortable, I’d honestly bring it up in your next session and tell her how it made you feel. She could use the feedback one way or another.
[удалено]
Okay, well that 4 beers/mo is a crazy metric for alcoholism if that is true. edit: why is this downvoted? Nobody in the real world would say somebody is an alcoholic if they drink 4 beers in a day much less in a month.
Heavy drinking is considere, for males, is 15 or more drinks per week. A drink is considered one beer or one shot or one 5oz glass of wine.
What was the initial discussion about around your father?
He recently upset my younger sibling because he lunged at her. She got out of the way and wasn't hurt (he has never hit us or anything), but it upset me because she called me crying about it. My therapist seemed quite upset so I was trying to give more perspecitve on his character like he would take us camping and to sports practices, but you couldn't drink from his cups in the car lol.
So, I’m not going to say or hint that your father was an alcoholic, but your therapist may be curious about his drinking in terms of how it fits in with managing his emotions. In this case, it looks like he was barely managing his anger when he lunged at your sister. I’m happy to hear he didn’t physical harm her, but having a parent who is supposed to protect you move to attack you is psychologically upsetting. Kids can be afraid to show emotion or speak up for fear of aggravating the parent, when it should be the parent who is teaching the child how to self regulate. Many people use alcohol to calm or mask their emotions, even if they aren’t abusing it or unable to function. If your father didn’t drink, it’s possible he would be physically abusive. Also, driving drunk is obviously not good either, but I think that’s what your therapist is getting at. It can be hard to think of parents this way, I know.
Yeah, the whole situation made me feel like shit, which is why I brought it up in therapy. When he was drinking it really did improve things. Thanks for sharing this.
You’re welcome! I would like to gently challenge you to think about if that did actually improve things and what’s causing your father to struggle with his anger ❤️
Thank you, I will reflect on that :)
huh
What? I am saying that is how we got into the conversation. I made a joke that I used to accidentaly drink the cups he had in his middle console because I thought it was soda.
I should have been less vague. It’s interesting to me that you sort of voluntarily connected those two things whether you meant to or not.
Your dad is definitely an alcoholic
And you are definitely not a therapist
I don't have to be to recognize that drinking while driving is alcoholism. You sound like you're in denial. People who aren't alcoholics don't drink and drive.
Sure, and that doesn't imply the opposite. To say that anybody that does drink and drink is an alcoholic is a big generalization.
No its a fact not a generalization. You can't drink and drive and not be an alcoholic. Part of having a alcohol problem is needing to drink at times that you know you shouldn't be drinking. Such as driving. If he didn't have an alcohol problem, it wouldn't be a question to choose to drive safely over drinking. You are in denial. And why bother posting asking for others thoughts if you're just going to fight and deny every thought that doesn't agree with yours?
I was asking to try to understand if what my therapist said and did was appropriate because it upset me. I wasn't looking for diagnostic impressions for my father from people that have no qualifications to give them.
I’d just like to comment that I have been impressed by how well you have tolerated the challenging feedback you’re getting from the group here. This is a tricky and obviously triggering subject for a lot of people. I don’t agree with the way people are downvoting your responses that they don’t agree with. I get the sense that you’re open to hearing and considering challenging opinions and I don’t agree with the more confrontational approach some of the people here are making.
Thank you, that is really kind of you to say :)
I think the denial and wanting to defend your father and make up excuses for him is definitely something you should work through in therapy. Take care.
Uh huh
How is that helpful, really? An approach like that is more likely to make someone double-down on defensiveness than anything.