In Jon's chapter with the wildlings, there are steps at Greyguard -
>They had descended the south face of the Wall at Greyguard, abandoned for two hundred years. A section of the huge stone steps had collapsed a century before, but even so the descent was a good deal easier than the climb.
And Meera climbs the remnants of steps at the Nightfort -
>She wasn't really climbing, the way he used to climb. She was only walking up some steps that the Night's Watch had hewn hundreds and thousands of years ago. He remembered Maester Luwin saying the Nightfort was the only castle where the steps had been cut from the ice of the Wall itself. Or maybe it had been Uncle Benjen. The newer castles had wooden steps, or stone ones, or long ramps of earth and gravel. Ice is too treacherous. It was his uncle who'd told him that. He said that the outer surface of the Wall wept icy tears sometimes, though the core inside stayed frozen hard as rock. The steps must have melted and refrozen a thousand times since the last black brothers left the castle, and every time they did they shrunk a little and got smoother and rounder and more treacherous.
Doubt any winch cages would last without maintenance though.
Yeah, the logistics of making stone steps that high is a bit hard to fathom lol. But George has admitted he's pretty bad with numbers/distances. Like my favorite example, the Great Pyramid in Meereen is said to be almost double the height of the real Great Pyramid of Giza which is kind of ridiculous
And I think there's a story that when he saw the filming site for the Wall scenes in Ireland, he said something to the effect that he now realized he had made it way too high in the books...?
the wall being 700 feet tall (213m) is cool sounding, but it would be impossible for the wildlings to shoot arrows up at the rangers on top like they do, and the amount of rope needed for the climbing would also definitely not fit in anyone's backpack. i don't have any issue suspending disbelief though.
The whole sequence of the siege on Castle Black is a really well written sequence, but it contains some improbabilities, including the first you note. Night's Watch being hit and killed atop the wall by arrows fired up from 700 below, in the dark. Jon commanding his tiny band of wall-top archers to loose their shafts into the dark...and the next morning there seem to be many on the ground killed by arrows.
The elements of catapults firing rocks at the Wildings, and the Watch dropping rocks and frozen barrels of gravel off the Wall to hit people gathered at the base are plausible.
Long range, high angle, accurate arrow fire not so much.
I'd prefer wood, I think, especially if they're built into the side of the wall. Wood will bend a little where stone would break, especially with water dripping and melting and refreezing with the weather. Wooden steps are also certainly a lot easier to replace.
I find it funny that Mance had thousands of men and a bunch of giants but decided to siege the 5% of the wall that was manned rather then grab a few pickaxes and clear a iced gate. The wall is what? A few dozen meters wide? It would take less than week to clear out completely, a few days with a giant participating.
He does allude to it when he's negotiating with Jon. He says he has enough warriors and giants that he could simultaneously open many gates of abandoned castles as you describe, attack the Shadow Tower, and attack Eastwatch from the sea, all the while keeping a big enough force facing the Castle Black gate to pin down the largest single force the Watch has.
That's when he gives Jon the ultimatum to let the Wildlings through, or he'll blow the horn and bring down the Wall.
I think, though, that he is trying to play a longer game. He doesn't want the Wildlings just spilling haphazardly into the North here and there, and attacking south, and constantly at war. He would prefer to have an agreement where he can bring his people safely through the Wall and take refuge, leaving the Wall and an intact Watch (not a decimated one) behind him to continue defending the Wall.
Essentially what Jon ends up doing in the end, although after being defeated by Stannis the Wildlings pass through under terms Jon dictates, not terms that Mance demands.
The Wall averages 300 feet wide according to the Wiki. Clearing out a tunnel at one of the forts would be doable but the regular patrols along the top would soon spot the work being done.
The [show’s wiki](https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Wall) says the Wall averages three hundred feet in width, but I don’t know where they came up with that measurement.
In the books, are least:
> Almost seven hundred feet high it stood, three times the height of the tallest tower in the stronghold it sheltered. His uncle said the top was wide enough for a dozen armored knights to ride abreast. (AGOT Jon III)
> The Wall had no gates as such, neither here at Castle Black nor anywhere along its three hundred miles. They led their horses down a narrow tunnel cut through the ice, cold dark walls pressing in around them as the passage twisted and turned. Three times their way was blocked by iron bars, and they had to stop while Bowen Marsh drew out his keys and unlocked the massive chains that secured them. Jon could sense the vast weight pressing down on him as he waited behind the Lord Steward. The air was colder than a tomb, and more still. (AGOT Jon VI)
> "The Wall is seven hundred feet high, and so thick at the base that it would take a hundred men a year to cut through it with picks and axes." (ACOK Jon V)
> "Jojen, what will we do when we reach the Wall? My uncle always said how big it was. Seven hundred feet high, and so thick at the base that the gates are more like tunnels through the ice. How are we going to get past to find the three-eyed crow?" (ASOS Bran III)
And? What exactly would happen once the patrols spot them. Fighting them outright would be better than laying siege. If the Nights Watch mounts a defence, then again it's better than fighting them where they are at their strongest.
Am I missing something here?
No-one has mentioned periodic patrols yet. I assume they DO start at Eastwatch and end at Shadow Tower, or the other way around, Mormont is said to keep them irregular. Somewhere (book 3?) they mention breeding donkeys/horses at Eastwatch, I assume that is one reason.
The cage in the show made use of a counterweight system, which would require maintenance like anything else. I suppose when they closed castles they would take everything they could carry, including cage lift systems.
In Jon's chapter with the wildlings, there are steps at Greyguard - >They had descended the south face of the Wall at Greyguard, abandoned for two hundred years. A section of the huge stone steps had collapsed a century before, but even so the descent was a good deal easier than the climb. And Meera climbs the remnants of steps at the Nightfort - >She wasn't really climbing, the way he used to climb. She was only walking up some steps that the Night's Watch had hewn hundreds and thousands of years ago. He remembered Maester Luwin saying the Nightfort was the only castle where the steps had been cut from the ice of the Wall itself. Or maybe it had been Uncle Benjen. The newer castles had wooden steps, or stone ones, or long ramps of earth and gravel. Ice is too treacherous. It was his uncle who'd told him that. He said that the outer surface of the Wall wept icy tears sometimes, though the core inside stayed frozen hard as rock. The steps must have melted and refrozen a thousand times since the last black brothers left the castle, and every time they did they shrunk a little and got smoother and rounder and more treacherous. Doubt any winch cages would last without maintenance though.
Thanks! Good catches. This answers it, I think. Interesting that some of the castles had stone steps, but Castle Black had wood.
Yeah, the logistics of making stone steps that high is a bit hard to fathom lol. But George has admitted he's pretty bad with numbers/distances. Like my favorite example, the Great Pyramid in Meereen is said to be almost double the height of the real Great Pyramid of Giza which is kind of ridiculous
And I think there's a story that when he saw the filming site for the Wall scenes in Ireland, he said something to the effect that he now realized he had made it way too high in the books...?
the wall being 700 feet tall (213m) is cool sounding, but it would be impossible for the wildlings to shoot arrows up at the rangers on top like they do, and the amount of rope needed for the climbing would also definitely not fit in anyone's backpack. i don't have any issue suspending disbelief though.
The whole sequence of the siege on Castle Black is a really well written sequence, but it contains some improbabilities, including the first you note. Night's Watch being hit and killed atop the wall by arrows fired up from 700 below, in the dark. Jon commanding his tiny band of wall-top archers to loose their shafts into the dark...and the next morning there seem to be many on the ground killed by arrows. The elements of catapults firing rocks at the Wildings, and the Watch dropping rocks and frozen barrels of gravel off the Wall to hit people gathered at the base are plausible. Long range, high angle, accurate arrow fire not so much.
IIRC they took him to like a rock quarry that was about half the height (depth?) of the wall, and he was like "yeah, looks about right." lol
I'd prefer wood, I think, especially if they're built into the side of the wall. Wood will bend a little where stone would break, especially with water dripping and melting and refreezing with the weather. Wooden steps are also certainly a lot easier to replace.
I find it funny that Mance had thousands of men and a bunch of giants but decided to siege the 5% of the wall that was manned rather then grab a few pickaxes and clear a iced gate. The wall is what? A few dozen meters wide? It would take less than week to clear out completely, a few days with a giant participating.
He does allude to it when he's negotiating with Jon. He says he has enough warriors and giants that he could simultaneously open many gates of abandoned castles as you describe, attack the Shadow Tower, and attack Eastwatch from the sea, all the while keeping a big enough force facing the Castle Black gate to pin down the largest single force the Watch has. That's when he gives Jon the ultimatum to let the Wildlings through, or he'll blow the horn and bring down the Wall. I think, though, that he is trying to play a longer game. He doesn't want the Wildlings just spilling haphazardly into the North here and there, and attacking south, and constantly at war. He would prefer to have an agreement where he can bring his people safely through the Wall and take refuge, leaving the Wall and an intact Watch (not a decimated one) behind him to continue defending the Wall. Essentially what Jon ends up doing in the end, although after being defeated by Stannis the Wildlings pass through under terms Jon dictates, not terms that Mance demands.
The Wall averages 300 feet wide according to the Wiki. Clearing out a tunnel at one of the forts would be doable but the regular patrols along the top would soon spot the work being done.
The [show’s wiki](https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Wall) says the Wall averages three hundred feet in width, but I don’t know where they came up with that measurement. In the books, are least: > Almost seven hundred feet high it stood, three times the height of the tallest tower in the stronghold it sheltered. His uncle said the top was wide enough for a dozen armored knights to ride abreast. (AGOT Jon III) > The Wall had no gates as such, neither here at Castle Black nor anywhere along its three hundred miles. They led their horses down a narrow tunnel cut through the ice, cold dark walls pressing in around them as the passage twisted and turned. Three times their way was blocked by iron bars, and they had to stop while Bowen Marsh drew out his keys and unlocked the massive chains that secured them. Jon could sense the vast weight pressing down on him as he waited behind the Lord Steward. The air was colder than a tomb, and more still. (AGOT Jon VI) > "The Wall is seven hundred feet high, and so thick at the base that it would take a hundred men a year to cut through it with picks and axes." (ACOK Jon V) > "Jojen, what will we do when we reach the Wall? My uncle always said how big it was. Seven hundred feet high, and so thick at the base that the gates are more like tunnels through the ice. How are we going to get past to find the three-eyed crow?" (ASOS Bran III)
And? What exactly would happen once the patrols spot them. Fighting them outright would be better than laying siege. If the Nights Watch mounts a defence, then again it's better than fighting them where they are at their strongest. Am I missing something here?
What makes you think a cage cannot be winched from the bottom?
No-one has mentioned periodic patrols yet. I assume they DO start at Eastwatch and end at Shadow Tower, or the other way around, Mormont is said to keep them irregular. Somewhere (book 3?) they mention breeding donkeys/horses at Eastwatch, I assume that is one reason. The cage in the show made use of a counterweight system, which would require maintenance like anything else. I suppose when they closed castles they would take everything they could carry, including cage lift systems.