There are many ways to answer this question but my least favorite is always "quietly married off and exits the story". She might end up running with Bran and Rickon, she might end up going south.
Catelyn likely doesn't hate her as much because she's less of an inheritance threat and grows up in her feminine sphere with the girls. Extra sad for Ned because she's Lyanna come again. May or may not allow her to train, like Arya, but she could train in secret. They should hide her when Robert visits lest he get extreme deja vu
Can you imagine Robert Baratheon falling in love (or lust, more like) with a female!Jon when he visits Winterfell? Thinking she looks so much like Lyanna...that seems like a soap opera plot.
It'd be bound to happen if/when Robert saw her. Which would cause a whole butterfly effect.
Cersei would probably order Jaime to kill her at Winterfell, however Jon has his father's dark/brooding eyes just in a shade of grey so what would Jaime doo if he saw her eyes?
"How would Ned handle the situation when Caitlyn is fuming that her husbands bastard (and presumably the "whore" he slept with) was more attractive than her and Sansa?"
Why do people act like Catelyn is Cinderella's evil stepmother.. also she would not look like a "whore" (Cat also never addressed his mother that way) but like his father
Cat would have been more relieved if Jonna was a girl.
Jon wasn't a beauty or skilled in combat because of some prophecy (who could still literally be about anyone).
No Watch though. Cat might have had her married off to some low lord at best, or one of Ned's bannermen. If that shit was refused, she probably would have been made into a septa.
For starters, marriage is very different, while Ned doesn't even worship the faith nor does he or Lynarra (fem Jon) have a close tie to the Faith.
A fem Jon Snow wouldn't even be worried about.
yeah i agree she wouldn't be worried about, so why go out of his way to prevent a marriage? Ned thinks of Sansa and Aria having to get married at some point, why a categorical no for fem-Jon?
You also are right about septas, it'd be odd for Old Gods believer to send his daughter to be a septa.
Of course he would. He was planning to eventually marry Arya off. Itâs what he thought best for women. Now, he obviously wouldnât let Cat arrange a wedding shockingly early or with a man Ned didnât approve of; heâd try to choose her a good husband heâd respect and she liked once she was 16-20.
I think Cat would have been much happier if Jon was a girl, as there would be a lot less chance of her posing a threat to the inheritance of Catelyn's kids.
I can't imagine Jon being prettier than Arya and Sansa would ever be a problem either. Sansa is said to be very beautiful too, and we know Jon looks a lot like Arya anyway (who is said to strongly resemble Lyanna) so in this scenario Jon probably ends up looking even more like Arya.
Honestly everything is probably better. Catelyn would care less because her main issue with Jon was that he was a âthreatâ to Robb. A girl would not have this issue. And she isnât as much as a threat to Westeros, so sheâs far safer in Nedâs eyes.
I donât know why youâd think sheâd be a powerful leader or skilled in combat, as she probably wouldnât be raised this way. And if we go by Jon, sheâd probably look closer to Arya than anyone else, though I think sheâd behave closer to Sansa or Jeyne if sheâs being raised alongside them.
Jon would still be looked down for being a bastard and Septa Mordame would 100% treat her horribly, as the way this woman borderline abuses Arya shows
What mainly makes Arya and Jon close is exactly that, the fact that only they understand each otherâs suffering, even if Jon doesnât become a leader of a fighter, itâs extremely unlikely they would have been close to Sansa or Jayne
Absolutely not. Arya was a normal child, even Catelyn acted like her when she was around Aryaâs age and so do other noble female characters.
Septa Mordame humiliates, degrades, masculinises, dehumanises and bashes Arya, not only in front of her but to her own family, on top of teaching Arya to embroider with the wrong hand and praising other girl (who is older then Arya) for having the same skill level as Arya (in embroidery). That woman was vile
That's enough. The [septa](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Septa) is doing no more than is her duty, though gods know you have made it a struggle for the poor woman. Your [mother](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Catelyn_Stark) and I have charged her with the impossible task of making you a lady.
Ned does not have any involvement in Arya and Sansa's education until that moment in the books. I am very well aware that Ned and Catelyn see Arya negatively, that's why I point out that Septa Mordame bashed Arya towards her parents AND held her to double standards.
I'm sorry but the problem is septa mordame
Ned doesn't have any involvement with his daughters education until conveniently a couple of chapters in the first year we actually see Eddard? That's an odd assumption to make.
But let's go to Arya Underfoot's wiki page to see quotes about her. What does the people who saw her growing up think about her? Nearly every quote is gives you one image.
Arya had always been harder to tame.[^(\[71\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arya_Stark#cite_note-Racok45.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-72) ^(- Catelyn)
And Arya, well... [Ned's](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Eddard_Stark) visitors would oft mistake her for a stableboy if they rode into the yard unannounced. Arya was a trial, it must be said. Half a boy, half a wolf pup. Forbid her anything and it became her heart's desire. She had Ned's long face, and brown hair that always looked as though a bird had been nesting in it. I despaired of ever making a lady of her. She collected scabs as other girls collected dolls, and would say anything that came into her head.[^(\[72\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arya_Stark#cite_note-Racok55.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-73) ^(- Catelyn)
Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. The '[wolf blood](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wolf_blood),' [my father](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rickard_Stark) used to call it. [Lyanna](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lyanna_Stark) had a touch of it, and my brother [Brandon](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brandon_Stark) more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave. Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.[^(\[2\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arya_Stark#cite_note-Ragot22.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-2) ^(- Eddard)
Arya Underfoot, he almost said. Arya Horseface. [Robb](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark)'s younger sister, brown-haired, long-faced, skinny as a stick. Always dirty.[^(\[73\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arya_Stark#cite_note-Radwd12.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-74) ^(- Theon)
The girl dipped before [him](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ramsay_Snow). That was wrong as well. The real Arya Stark would have spat in his face.[^(\[59\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arya_Stark#cite_note-Radwd20.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-60) ^(- Theon)
We do know Ned wasnât involved in the girlâs education just like we know that Catelyn was not involved in the boyâs, this is the norm in westeros.
Are you for real, quotes without any context?
First- Catelyn is the one influenced the most by Septa Mordame. She is also ready to masculinise Arya and not perfect of a mother, if Aryaâs believe that her mother wonât want her back is to be taken into consideration. Catelyn herself remembers fondly of playing in the dirt and doing mud pies, she is straight up a hypocrite
Second- Arya having âwolf bloodâ, which is literally just having a strong personality, does not make Arya less of a victim of Septa Mordameâs abuse
Theonâs view of Arya are up wrong: Arya can and is absolutely able to stay quiet and low-key, we know that Arya wouldnât have spit because Arya is in horrible positions and is able to control herself
If you bothered reading Aryaâs chapters you would know that Arya is average in embroidery and even engages in it outside of Septa Mordameâs environment. Arya is also not that impulsive or hot headed, the entire journey back North, and the Harrenhall arc in particular, is there to prove it
I also find it telling that instead of trying to prove that Septa Mordame wasnât abusive by showing her actions, or giving any proof that my claims are unfounded (which they arenât and Septa Mordame is horrible), you go and try to put the âblameâ in Arya as if Arya isnât a vulnerable little girl and Septa Mordame isnât a grown ass woman with a massive influence that should know better.
He isn't involved in the day to day teachings of Arya, sure. But the idea that he lacks any communication with Septa Mordane or talking about Arya with Catelyn, who has communicated with Septa Mordane is a bit daft. Eddard clearly knows Arya's a handful and not "lady-like" and it's Septa Mordanes task to whip her into the mold. Eddard and Catelyn aren't really the direct teachers they are more teachers who send their children off to learn from others for the majority of the time with rarer personal teaching to their respective gender.
My point of the quotes was just the consensus of Arya. It's extremely evident. She is Arya Underfoot. She is constantly running around getting into mischief, getting dirty, mouthing off, skipping her classes & duty, and just doing whatever she wants. Of course this is just her being a normal, pretty rebellious, child to our perspective. But from the perspective of people who are tasked with turning Arya into a Noble Lady, these are things that don't fit into the mold that she must grow into. Which is sad. But that is Westoros.
Also I want to say that you bring up how it's so bad that Mordane makes Arya learn with her left hand and then criticizes her for being so bad. This is true. But that isn't what GRRM is trying to tell us. He isn't trying to tell us that Septa Mordane is a grown woman pranking or fucking with Arya to make her knit with her non-dominant hand. He is clearly paying homage to the whole popular concept of the medieval ages that left-handed people weren't accepted in. They think that everyone is right handed. There is even more myths (with some truth) that left handed people were burned at the stake for being left handed. Not that Septa Mordane is doing some weird shit.
First - Catelyn isn't necessarily a hypocrite for that atleast. You can look back fondly on a child (Arya) getting into some fun wreckless childhood mischief, while still wanting them (during the time) to mature and develop into a noble lady.
Like my mother would tell me about a crazy time my brother and I just did some insanely stupid and dumb shit growing up and will look back at it fondly as a memory of our youth. But that doesn't mean she wasn't right and trying to correct us into more mature and developed young men.
Second - Wolfsblood does refer to a strong personality. But more a certain type of strong personality. He refers to it as the personality Brandon & Lyanna had and what both got them killed. It's the personality of people who are rash and seem to take action without thinking much. Although it's clear what that means for Brandon but not so much for Lyanna as it's not revealed.
Third - Theon's view of Arya isn't wrong. He is speaking of the Arya he knew, experienced, and grew up with. Sure that Arya went off to Kingslanding and he never saw her again after she watched her father die, and learned of most of her family dying. In survival situations where she isn't in shenanigans and acting smart. Then being trained to be a emotionless, have no personality, crazy assassin. The fact that Arya changes doesn't change the literal 7 years of experience he has growing up with Arya.
My point in all of this isn't that Arya is EVIL! She's a child. When she's at Winterfell and skipping her lessons and saying how all of the Lady shit is stupid. She's just a child. A child who's personality isn't what society wants of her and her sister does fit that mold society has. She has complexes about this and an inferiority complex with how Sansa is so perfect and stupid yadda yadda. She's a child having childhood problems. Especially as she is a woman in Westoros. She wants to be an adventurer, an explorer, a knight! But society and her parents tell her she can only be the mother of those things. Her place is in a castle.
But also Septa Mordane isn't some like evil figure. She's a strict teacher that makes some rude comments and isn't great. But she isn't evil. She's trying to do what Catelyn and Eddard have tasked her with doing. To whip the rebellious young Arya into the shape of a lady.
Full on book nerd is probably the only real outlet/path realistically.
Ned didn't allow Arya to practice fighting untill it was clear Jon already got her hooked to it.
Why would she care if female Jon would be prettier than Sansa (which I doubt)? No lord is going to want to marry 'Joanna' anyway. At best Robert might want to fuck her.
Catelyn would be less worried about the threat posed to Robb and probably just ignore female Jon even more than she originally did.
She's also not a vain woman so even if she is more beautiful than herself I don't think she'd be offended by it.
She might care more if potential suitors were after female Jon rather than Sansa. But that is rather unlikely. I also think her goal would be to marry Jon off to another smaller house. She'd probably see that as a win - win for everyone.
Are you really calling it a grooming complex if you're caked in mud and your hair is a knotted mess?
If Arya had a complex about it she wouldn't be so openly happy to get dirty and muddy. She doesn't care at all. It's not like she's nearly perfect and still obsessing over it.
She just knows that her mother would care about her being incredibly dirty and messy - as most parents even now would. That's a very normal, human thing. It's not meant to paint Catelyn as some crazy parent.
But Catelyn isn't *vain*. She doesn't obsses over her own looks in the slightest. That's what being vain is about. Even Catelyn isn't overly afraid to get dirty if needed.
She knows that her daughters have to look and act a certain way and expects that of them. But she's also entirely reasonable about it and isn't actually mean or cruel to anyone that fails to meet the standards - such as Brienne.
That's just what happens when your hair is *that* knotty lol. It's not like she does all the time. She suddenly realised she was messy tried to comb her hair and realised exactly the problem with trying that on messy hair - everything is so tangled it rips out.
If she kept going you'd even have a smidgen of an argument. But she didn't because she did *not* in fact want to rip her hair out. You know what normal people without complexes do - oh that hurts, okay yeah better give up.
Like you really going to pretend that parents are going to let their kids be ratty messes? Obviously she'd feel an instinct to be clean for her mother. Catelyn would actually be *negligent* if she let Arya be a dirty mess all the time. It shows a childish innocence, not a complex.
(Also as said not what vain means which is about personal beauty standards)
Well for starters I donât think Rhaegar wouldâve been too pleased with his prophesied offspring being born the âwrongâ (in his eyes) gender.
Westeros is profoundly misogynistic so I think the whole series would be topsy-turvy for sure.
Rhaegar was expecting a girl. He was trying to recreate the three heads of the dragon, visenya, aegon, rhaenys. He had a male child, Aegon, he didn't expect another
*Only if you subscribe to the theory that Rhaegar died on the Trident /s*
And that's only the case if you believe that the Battle at the Ruby Ford actually happened...
Possibly betrothed to some minor nobility in the Northern mountain clans and sets off North soon after Ned and fam go to Kingâs Landing (though Robb might try to keep his sister at Winterfell for emotional support after Branâs fall). However, she might be captured and carried off by wildlings, starting canon!Jonâs Beyond the Wall arc before escaping to warn the Watch of the incoming Wildling army. I donât see female Jon being quite so able to negotiate with Stannis, but maybe she takes a role in rallying the Northern houses like Alys Karstark does in canon.
(Her relationship with Catelyn is probably *slightly* better than in canon, as Catelyn wouldnât worry so much about Jon having a claim to her childrensâ inheritance).
Nah. Ned was utter garbage at planning for his kids. Jon and Robb should have already had bethroths considered.
Nothing would change with girl Jon unless somone came to Winterfell offering to take her maybe. Thers a really possibility Ramasy Snow would have wanted her.
Then Jon(na) Snow and Tormund Giantsbane would be the illicit Watch / Free Folk couple, not Jon and Ygritte.
And Jonna would bear the Prince that was Promised. \*
(And how did Jonna end up in the Watch in the first place, you ask? Consider how Arya got so far North with Yoren while pretending to be a boy. It's possible.)
\* who would also grow up to have the most giant member in Targaryen history.
By being woman Jon, let's say Joanna, isn't danger to Robb's inheritance in a way Jon thanks to brothers inheriting before sisters in the North so Cat would possibly be less hostile toward her (as a side note Jon didn't have that bad in the Winterfell). Cat still wouldn't acted like a mother to her, but potentially she would be warmer toward her.
Let's say that as she grows up and Robb is about to start his combat lessons Ned remembering Lyanna indulges Joanna and allows her to share the same lessons. It may not be a lot but it could be enough to make Sansa want to know how to defend herself and Arya would centennially use Joanna getting lessons as an argument to get her own lessons (it wouldn't be that bad of an idea as it would give Ned and Cat both carrot and stick to control Arya's behaviour).
With Joanna being a girl Ned would need to think more of her possible marriage and despite being a Snow (assuming that Ned didn't ask Robert to have her legitimised as a potential head for new branch of House Stark) she would be one of best brides in the North being a daughter of Ned Stark. Joanna being betrothed to a heir to powerful northern house wouldn't be out of the question although Ned could potentially go with idea of making her a head of new Stark branch with matrilineal marriage to a 2nd or 3rd son of northern house or a house from the Vale that Ned's has good relations with or even Edric Strom. Another possibly would be for Robert to want Joanna as wife for Joffery if he heard that she looks a lot like Lyanna.
Let's go with the new branch of Starks idea as it offers her the biggest freedom of manoeuvrer. While Jon leaves Winterfell for the Wall she could just leave it to go to her own castle/lands and be free to go back when she's needed. She would be there for Robb when he calls the banners and she could either go south with him to help rescue their father and sisters or she would stay in the Winterfell as semi-official regent to Bran potentially tasked with getting reinforcements ready while Robb goes south.
This way Joanna would be there with second army vastly limiting what Ramsey could accomplish in the North and once the Ironborn land she would have forces to quickly push them back into the sea and prevent Theon from sacking Winterfell and "killing" Bran and Rickon giving Robb more options in the south as he wouldn't need to go back to the North.
Once she would get news about the Wildlings assembling she could just go there as the Stark to take control of things and she would have authority (both as a Stark and by having a bloody army under her command) to make the Watch accept whatever decision she reaches without getting stabbed for it. After learning about the Others she would have access to the resources of an entire kingdom to prepare for them and with Winterfell not being sacked maybe Luwin would find info about sources of obsidian/dragonglass in the North.
Meanwhile in the south even if Robb still marries Talisa he could still burn the Westerlands and maybe even force Reach to chase him as he burns the northern Reach. Of course Bolton would still plan to be a pain in the arse and increase his standing/betray Robb but this time around Bran would still be alive and the North would be rather untouched by war. Cat wouldn't probably let Jamie free with both Bran and Rickon still alive so they would still have him as a prisoner while Arya would have a chance to reunite with Robb and Cat.
On the other hand Sansa's value to the Lannisters would be lower with both Bran and Rickon alive and Robb being a threat to the Lannisters/raiding their lands so her time in the King's Landing could be even worse for her. Maybe Robb would send a team to rescue her black ops style, but there's also a chance that Littlefinger gets her out of KL faster than in canon and tries to use her as a chip in trying to get a deal with Robb.
How Stannis would have acted and if he would even go to the Wall with the North still strong I cannot say, but Daenerys wouldn't be willing to let Robb remain a King nor would she be willing to help fight against the Others. Still, the Others wouldn't have a dragon without her so that's a plus. She would have probably focus on the south first while Joanna leads the fight against the Others and Robb fights to retain control over the Riverlands.
As much as I would like for Robb to survive I could see him dying in combat although Daenerys would have probably joined him in death with either Bran or Rickon being named the next King in the North and Trident with Joanna having defeated the Others becoming the Regent and/or Hand even if Cat wouldn't be that happy about it.
Also. Rhaegar was convinced that Jon would be born a girl.
There are many ways to answer this question but my least favorite is always "quietly married off and exits the story". She might end up running with Bran and Rickon, she might end up going south. Catelyn likely doesn't hate her as much because she's less of an inheritance threat and grows up in her feminine sphere with the girls. Extra sad for Ned because she's Lyanna come again. May or may not allow her to train, like Arya, but she could train in secret. They should hide her when Robert visits lest he get extreme deja vu
Nah couldent hide her. The world Knows ned had a bastard and Robert would be extra curious about and 14 year old Stark girl :X
đ
Can you imagine Robert Baratheon falling in love (or lust, more like) with a female!Jon when he visits Winterfell? Thinking she looks so much like Lyanna...that seems like a soap opera plot.
It'd be bound to happen if/when Robert saw her. Which would cause a whole butterfly effect. Cersei would probably order Jaime to kill her at Winterfell, however Jon has his father's dark/brooding eyes just in a shade of grey so what would Jaime doo if he saw her eyes?
"How would Ned handle the situation when Caitlyn is fuming that her husbands bastard (and presumably the "whore" he slept with) was more attractive than her and Sansa?" Why do people act like Catelyn is Cinderella's evil stepmother.. also she would not look like a "whore" (Cat also never addressed his mother that way) but like his father
Cat would have been more relieved if Jonna was a girl. Jon wasn't a beauty or skilled in combat because of some prophecy (who could still literally be about anyone). No Watch though. Cat might have had her married off to some low lord at best, or one of Ned's bannermen. If that shit was refused, she probably would have been made into a septa.
Ned wouldn't let Cat marry her off.
then what else would she do? a bastard daughter wouldn't have much future otherwise. ned would try to find her a good husband still.
Cat would probably protest any matches before her daughters were betrothed.
Ned could find many uses for her. He wouldn't just let Catelyn marry her off to someone.
Girls get married off. Ned even expected Arya go become a lady and get married eventuallyÂ
Yes, eventually. Ned wouldn't send or allow her to be married off to someone when she was 14.
Why? Ned sent Jon to the Wall, having girl-Jon marry or be made a septa similar.
For starters, marriage is very different, while Ned doesn't even worship the faith nor does he or Lynarra (fem Jon) have a close tie to the Faith. A fem Jon Snow wouldn't even be worried about.
yeah i agree she wouldn't be worried about, so why go out of his way to prevent a marriage? Ned thinks of Sansa and Aria having to get married at some point, why a categorical no for fem-Jon? You also are right about septas, it'd be odd for Old Gods believer to send his daughter to be a septa.
Because she was 14. Bastards are never in a rush to be married off.
No one said the marriage had to be right this minute...
Of course he would. He was planning to eventually marry Arya off. Itâs what he thought best for women. Now, he obviously wouldnât let Cat arrange a wedding shockingly early or with a man Ned didnât approve of; heâd try to choose her a good husband heâd respect and she liked once she was 16-20.
Incorrect
Yeah, I see your point. Really hard to argue against that argument.
I think Cat would have been much happier if Jon was a girl, as there would be a lot less chance of her posing a threat to the inheritance of Catelyn's kids. I can't imagine Jon being prettier than Arya and Sansa would ever be a problem either. Sansa is said to be very beautiful too, and we know Jon looks a lot like Arya anyway (who is said to strongly resemble Lyanna) so in this scenario Jon probably ends up looking even more like Arya.
Mya Stone, only on a slightly higher level.
Honestly everything is probably better. Catelyn would care less because her main issue with Jon was that he was a âthreatâ to Robb. A girl would not have this issue. And she isnât as much as a threat to Westeros, so sheâs far safer in Nedâs eyes. I donât know why youâd think sheâd be a powerful leader or skilled in combat, as she probably wouldnât be raised this way. And if we go by Jon, sheâd probably look closer to Arya than anyone else, though I think sheâd behave closer to Sansa or Jeyne if sheâs being raised alongside them.
Jon would still be looked down for being a bastard and Septa Mordame would 100% treat her horribly, as the way this woman borderline abuses Arya shows What mainly makes Arya and Jon close is exactly that, the fact that only they understand each otherâs suffering, even if Jon doesnât become a leader of a fighter, itâs extremely unlikely they would have been close to Sansa or Jayne
I think border line abuses Arya is a bit dramatic. She was an authority figure and Arya was a very particularly rebellious child.
Absolutely not. Arya was a normal child, even Catelyn acted like her when she was around Aryaâs age and so do other noble female characters. Septa Mordame humiliates, degrades, masculinises, dehumanises and bashes Arya, not only in front of her but to her own family, on top of teaching Arya to embroider with the wrong hand and praising other girl (who is older then Arya) for having the same skill level as Arya (in embroidery). That woman was vile
That's enough. The [septa](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Septa) is doing no more than is her duty, though gods know you have made it a struggle for the poor woman. Your [mother](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Catelyn_Stark) and I have charged her with the impossible task of making you a lady.
Ned does not have any involvement in Arya and Sansa's education until that moment in the books. I am very well aware that Ned and Catelyn see Arya negatively, that's why I point out that Septa Mordame bashed Arya towards her parents AND held her to double standards. I'm sorry but the problem is septa mordame
Ned doesn't have any involvement with his daughters education until conveniently a couple of chapters in the first year we actually see Eddard? That's an odd assumption to make. But let's go to Arya Underfoot's wiki page to see quotes about her. What does the people who saw her growing up think about her? Nearly every quote is gives you one image. Arya had always been harder to tame.[^(\[71\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arya_Stark#cite_note-Racok45.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-72) ^(- Catelyn) And Arya, well... [Ned's](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Eddard_Stark) visitors would oft mistake her for a stableboy if they rode into the yard unannounced. Arya was a trial, it must be said. Half a boy, half a wolf pup. Forbid her anything and it became her heart's desire. She had Ned's long face, and brown hair that always looked as though a bird had been nesting in it. I despaired of ever making a lady of her. She collected scabs as other girls collected dolls, and would say anything that came into her head.[^(\[72\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arya_Stark#cite_note-Racok55.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-73) ^(- Catelyn) Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. The '[wolf blood](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wolf_blood),' [my father](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rickard_Stark) used to call it. [Lyanna](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lyanna_Stark) had a touch of it, and my brother [Brandon](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brandon_Stark) more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave. Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.[^(\[2\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arya_Stark#cite_note-Ragot22.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-2) ^(- Eddard) Arya Underfoot, he almost said. Arya Horseface. [Robb](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robb_Stark)'s younger sister, brown-haired, long-faced, skinny as a stick. Always dirty.[^(\[73\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arya_Stark#cite_note-Radwd12.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-74) ^(- Theon) The girl dipped before [him](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ramsay_Snow). That was wrong as well. The real Arya Stark would have spat in his face.[^(\[59\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arya_Stark#cite_note-Radwd20.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-60) ^(- Theon)
We do know Ned wasnât involved in the girlâs education just like we know that Catelyn was not involved in the boyâs, this is the norm in westeros. Are you for real, quotes without any context? First- Catelyn is the one influenced the most by Septa Mordame. She is also ready to masculinise Arya and not perfect of a mother, if Aryaâs believe that her mother wonât want her back is to be taken into consideration. Catelyn herself remembers fondly of playing in the dirt and doing mud pies, she is straight up a hypocrite Second- Arya having âwolf bloodâ, which is literally just having a strong personality, does not make Arya less of a victim of Septa Mordameâs abuse Theonâs view of Arya are up wrong: Arya can and is absolutely able to stay quiet and low-key, we know that Arya wouldnât have spit because Arya is in horrible positions and is able to control herself If you bothered reading Aryaâs chapters you would know that Arya is average in embroidery and even engages in it outside of Septa Mordameâs environment. Arya is also not that impulsive or hot headed, the entire journey back North, and the Harrenhall arc in particular, is there to prove it I also find it telling that instead of trying to prove that Septa Mordame wasnât abusive by showing her actions, or giving any proof that my claims are unfounded (which they arenât and Septa Mordame is horrible), you go and try to put the âblameâ in Arya as if Arya isnât a vulnerable little girl and Septa Mordame isnât a grown ass woman with a massive influence that should know better.
He isn't involved in the day to day teachings of Arya, sure. But the idea that he lacks any communication with Septa Mordane or talking about Arya with Catelyn, who has communicated with Septa Mordane is a bit daft. Eddard clearly knows Arya's a handful and not "lady-like" and it's Septa Mordanes task to whip her into the mold. Eddard and Catelyn aren't really the direct teachers they are more teachers who send their children off to learn from others for the majority of the time with rarer personal teaching to their respective gender. My point of the quotes was just the consensus of Arya. It's extremely evident. She is Arya Underfoot. She is constantly running around getting into mischief, getting dirty, mouthing off, skipping her classes & duty, and just doing whatever she wants. Of course this is just her being a normal, pretty rebellious, child to our perspective. But from the perspective of people who are tasked with turning Arya into a Noble Lady, these are things that don't fit into the mold that she must grow into. Which is sad. But that is Westoros. Also I want to say that you bring up how it's so bad that Mordane makes Arya learn with her left hand and then criticizes her for being so bad. This is true. But that isn't what GRRM is trying to tell us. He isn't trying to tell us that Septa Mordane is a grown woman pranking or fucking with Arya to make her knit with her non-dominant hand. He is clearly paying homage to the whole popular concept of the medieval ages that left-handed people weren't accepted in. They think that everyone is right handed. There is even more myths (with some truth) that left handed people were burned at the stake for being left handed. Not that Septa Mordane is doing some weird shit. First - Catelyn isn't necessarily a hypocrite for that atleast. You can look back fondly on a child (Arya) getting into some fun wreckless childhood mischief, while still wanting them (during the time) to mature and develop into a noble lady. Like my mother would tell me about a crazy time my brother and I just did some insanely stupid and dumb shit growing up and will look back at it fondly as a memory of our youth. But that doesn't mean she wasn't right and trying to correct us into more mature and developed young men. Second - Wolfsblood does refer to a strong personality. But more a certain type of strong personality. He refers to it as the personality Brandon & Lyanna had and what both got them killed. It's the personality of people who are rash and seem to take action without thinking much. Although it's clear what that means for Brandon but not so much for Lyanna as it's not revealed. Third - Theon's view of Arya isn't wrong. He is speaking of the Arya he knew, experienced, and grew up with. Sure that Arya went off to Kingslanding and he never saw her again after she watched her father die, and learned of most of her family dying. In survival situations where she isn't in shenanigans and acting smart. Then being trained to be a emotionless, have no personality, crazy assassin. The fact that Arya changes doesn't change the literal 7 years of experience he has growing up with Arya. My point in all of this isn't that Arya is EVIL! She's a child. When she's at Winterfell and skipping her lessons and saying how all of the Lady shit is stupid. She's just a child. A child who's personality isn't what society wants of her and her sister does fit that mold society has. She has complexes about this and an inferiority complex with how Sansa is so perfect and stupid yadda yadda. She's a child having childhood problems. Especially as she is a woman in Westoros. She wants to be an adventurer, an explorer, a knight! But society and her parents tell her she can only be the mother of those things. Her place is in a castle. But also Septa Mordane isn't some like evil figure. She's a strict teacher that makes some rude comments and isn't great. But she isn't evil. She's trying to do what Catelyn and Eddard have tasked her with doing. To whip the rebellious young Arya into the shape of a lady.
Full on book nerd is probably the only real outlet/path realistically. Ned didn't allow Arya to practice fighting untill it was clear Jon already got her hooked to it.
Why would girl Jon be stunningly beautiful when boy Jon is mid af?
Book Jon is explictly called hot by Ygritte and has multiple extraordinarily beautiful women interested in him.
Was he actually called hot by Ygritte? As far as I remember, Melisandre never describes him as particularly attractive.
>Ygritte helped pull him up. "He's bleeding like a butchered boar. Look what Orell did t' his sweet face."
Why would she care if female Jon would be prettier than Sansa (which I doubt)? No lord is going to want to marry 'Joanna' anyway. At best Robert might want to fuck her.
Catelyn would be less worried about the threat posed to Robb and probably just ignore female Jon even more than she originally did. She's also not a vain woman so even if she is more beautiful than herself I don't think she'd be offended by it. She might care more if potential suitors were after female Jon rather than Sansa. But that is rather unlikely. I also think her goal would be to marry Jon off to another smaller house. She'd probably see that as a win - win for everyone.
Cat is completely vain. To the point she gave Arya a grooming complex.
Are you really calling it a grooming complex if you're caked in mud and your hair is a knotted mess? If Arya had a complex about it she wouldn't be so openly happy to get dirty and muddy. She doesn't care at all. It's not like she's nearly perfect and still obsessing over it. She just knows that her mother would care about her being incredibly dirty and messy - as most parents even now would. That's a very normal, human thing. It's not meant to paint Catelyn as some crazy parent. But Catelyn isn't *vain*. She doesn't obsses over her own looks in the slightest. That's what being vain is about. Even Catelyn isn't overly afraid to get dirty if needed. She knows that her daughters have to look and act a certain way and expects that of them. But she's also entirely reasonable about it and isn't actually mean or cruel to anyone that fails to meet the standards - such as Brienne.
If you are ripping your hair out by the roots because you are afraid of your mother she gave you a complex.
That's just what happens when your hair is *that* knotty lol. It's not like she does all the time. She suddenly realised she was messy tried to comb her hair and realised exactly the problem with trying that on messy hair - everything is so tangled it rips out. If she kept going you'd even have a smidgen of an argument. But she didn't because she did *not* in fact want to rip her hair out. You know what normal people without complexes do - oh that hurts, okay yeah better give up. Like you really going to pretend that parents are going to let their kids be ratty messes? Obviously she'd feel an instinct to be clean for her mother. Catelyn would actually be *negligent* if she let Arya be a dirty mess all the time. It shows a childish innocence, not a complex. (Also as said not what vain means which is about personal beauty standards)
Rob would be hitting it.
Well for starters I donât think Rhaegar wouldâve been too pleased with his prophesied offspring being born the âwrongâ (in his eyes) gender. Westeros is profoundly misogynistic so I think the whole series would be topsy-turvy for sure.
Wouldn't it be better in his eyes? A Visenya to match Rhaenys and Aegon.
Oh mayhaps. I always assumed he was hellbent on having another boy for some reason.
Rhaegar was expecting a girl. He was trying to recreate the three heads of the dragon, visenya, aegon, rhaenys. He had a male child, Aegon, he didn't expect another
Rhaegar kind of forgot about Orys Baratheon
Good thing Rhaegar would be too busy coughing blood on the Trident to know
Only if you subscribe to the theory that Rhaegar died on the Trident /s
*Only if you subscribe to the theory that Rhaegar died on the Trident /s* And that's only the case if you believe that the Battle at the Ruby Ford actually happened...
[Exactly](https://i.redd.it/068b9xbw7r8d1.gif)
Oh man. You got me there
Possibly betrothed to some minor nobility in the Northern mountain clans and sets off North soon after Ned and fam go to Kingâs Landing (though Robb might try to keep his sister at Winterfell for emotional support after Branâs fall). However, she might be captured and carried off by wildlings, starting canon!Jonâs Beyond the Wall arc before escaping to warn the Watch of the incoming Wildling army. I donât see female Jon being quite so able to negotiate with Stannis, but maybe she takes a role in rallying the Northern houses like Alys Karstark does in canon. (Her relationship with Catelyn is probably *slightly* better than in canon, as Catelyn wouldnât worry so much about Jon having a claim to her childrensâ inheritance).
Nah. Ned was utter garbage at planning for his kids. Jon and Robb should have already had bethroths considered. Nothing would change with girl Jon unless somone came to Winterfell offering to take her maybe. Thers a really possibility Ramasy Snow would have wanted her.
Then Jon(na) Snow and Tormund Giantsbane would be the illicit Watch / Free Folk couple, not Jon and Ygritte. And Jonna would bear the Prince that was Promised. \* (And how did Jonna end up in the Watch in the first place, you ask? Consider how Arya got so far North with Yoren while pretending to be a boy. It's possible.) \* who would also grow up to have the most giant member in Targaryen history.
By being woman Jon, let's say Joanna, isn't danger to Robb's inheritance in a way Jon thanks to brothers inheriting before sisters in the North so Cat would possibly be less hostile toward her (as a side note Jon didn't have that bad in the Winterfell). Cat still wouldn't acted like a mother to her, but potentially she would be warmer toward her. Let's say that as she grows up and Robb is about to start his combat lessons Ned remembering Lyanna indulges Joanna and allows her to share the same lessons. It may not be a lot but it could be enough to make Sansa want to know how to defend herself and Arya would centennially use Joanna getting lessons as an argument to get her own lessons (it wouldn't be that bad of an idea as it would give Ned and Cat both carrot and stick to control Arya's behaviour). With Joanna being a girl Ned would need to think more of her possible marriage and despite being a Snow (assuming that Ned didn't ask Robert to have her legitimised as a potential head for new branch of House Stark) she would be one of best brides in the North being a daughter of Ned Stark. Joanna being betrothed to a heir to powerful northern house wouldn't be out of the question although Ned could potentially go with idea of making her a head of new Stark branch with matrilineal marriage to a 2nd or 3rd son of northern house or a house from the Vale that Ned's has good relations with or even Edric Strom. Another possibly would be for Robert to want Joanna as wife for Joffery if he heard that she looks a lot like Lyanna. Let's go with the new branch of Starks idea as it offers her the biggest freedom of manoeuvrer. While Jon leaves Winterfell for the Wall she could just leave it to go to her own castle/lands and be free to go back when she's needed. She would be there for Robb when he calls the banners and she could either go south with him to help rescue their father and sisters or she would stay in the Winterfell as semi-official regent to Bran potentially tasked with getting reinforcements ready while Robb goes south. This way Joanna would be there with second army vastly limiting what Ramsey could accomplish in the North and once the Ironborn land she would have forces to quickly push them back into the sea and prevent Theon from sacking Winterfell and "killing" Bran and Rickon giving Robb more options in the south as he wouldn't need to go back to the North. Once she would get news about the Wildlings assembling she could just go there as the Stark to take control of things and she would have authority (both as a Stark and by having a bloody army under her command) to make the Watch accept whatever decision she reaches without getting stabbed for it. After learning about the Others she would have access to the resources of an entire kingdom to prepare for them and with Winterfell not being sacked maybe Luwin would find info about sources of obsidian/dragonglass in the North. Meanwhile in the south even if Robb still marries Talisa he could still burn the Westerlands and maybe even force Reach to chase him as he burns the northern Reach. Of course Bolton would still plan to be a pain in the arse and increase his standing/betray Robb but this time around Bran would still be alive and the North would be rather untouched by war. Cat wouldn't probably let Jamie free with both Bran and Rickon still alive so they would still have him as a prisoner while Arya would have a chance to reunite with Robb and Cat. On the other hand Sansa's value to the Lannisters would be lower with both Bran and Rickon alive and Robb being a threat to the Lannisters/raiding their lands so her time in the King's Landing could be even worse for her. Maybe Robb would send a team to rescue her black ops style, but there's also a chance that Littlefinger gets her out of KL faster than in canon and tries to use her as a chip in trying to get a deal with Robb. How Stannis would have acted and if he would even go to the Wall with the North still strong I cannot say, but Daenerys wouldn't be willing to let Robb remain a King nor would she be willing to help fight against the Others. Still, the Others wouldn't have a dragon without her so that's a plus. She would have probably focus on the south first while Joanna leads the fight against the Others and Robb fights to retain control over the Riverlands. As much as I would like for Robb to survive I could see him dying in combat although Daenerys would have probably joined him in death with either Bran or Rickon being named the next King in the North and Trident with Joanna having defeated the Others becoming the Regent and/or Hand even if Cat wouldn't be that happy about it. Also. Rhaegar was convinced that Jon would be born a girl.