There was a scene where a girl in a windows threw down a small bag and another girl caught it and handed it to another woman who walks off screen and we start following "ulf" what is the bag and is it important? Am I the only one that caught this
HOW IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT THAT STRAIGHT UP PORN SCENE!?
I guess EVERYONE Who likes this show is in to that crap rather than good or even DECENT story telling it’s so GARBAGE
And the actors and actresses are SHIT !
Actually loved the septa rhaenyra scene!! So many times the driving action for a plot point is a misconception or misunderstanding, and it can become so annoying that it's right in everyone's face if they just SPOKE about it!!!
To see Alicent and Rhaenyra speak of what Viserys said and both realize that it was the ramblings of a dying man is refreshing. Then Alicent doubles down even when she has realized her mistake. She has started a war because of her own jealousy and greed because she never privately confronted Rhaenyra with this information in the first place. Alicent feels she has no way out and doubles down, instead of doing her best to get her children, armies, and the small folk out of the cross fire. It is a human drive to always want to be right, even at great cost. It's nice to have this ironed out because it's a horrible plot hole to have the driving force be an easily fixed misconception.
Of course getting Rhaenyra to speak with Alicent in person could've been done in a more elaborate or explained way, but it makes sense for the need to be face to face. I mean Rhaenyra didn't even open Alicents letter for ages. And the whole Viserys realization only came about through a back and forth, not something so easily achievable in letters where such a small kernel of information might not be written.
For not showing the battle, I get cost wise why they didn't show. I also think showing not telling is important, just showing the dead and instead saving the battle hype for the dragons is important. If you make everything a big battle or high stakes, nothing feels as grand anymore.
Non-book reader fyi.
"Why would she even try stopping a conflict that has already started". Sin begets sin begets sin. War leads to more sin and greater evil. "What is the life of a queen worth these days?" perhaps the lives of thousands of banner men and even more common folk. Justice for Rhaenrya is not worth the means to achieve it and its never too late to end a war.
In the episode Rhaenys speaks about how it doesn't matter by who or when the war started. War begets war begets war. What do you mean "too late"? Too late for what? War is not some discreet action that once started must come to some final completion. At any point along the way peace can be negotiated and reached, even once blood is drawn.
The only way that peace can be achieved is if one of them surrenders. Aegon clearly won’t surrender and Rhaenyra seems to feel the same way, she has to defend herself and her subjects against his attacks
Also, I don't like how they're trying to make every character sympathetic to the viewers. Like Aemond crying in the fetal position. Daemon crying for having Jahaerus killed, etc. Not every bad character/anti-hero has to have a good side to them. Just like in life, some people just are, regardless how it comes off to others. I feel like they emasculated Aemond. Some people are selfish and don't care who they hurt. You don't need to try to humanize them.
He had tears in his eyes but I don’t think it was because of Jaehaerys, it was because he realized how badly he fucked up with Rhaenyra. Her younger version articulated what older Rhaenyra couldn’t, that the reason she doesn’t trust Daemon isn’t because of the reasons Viserys didn’t trust Daemon, but because he left her so many times.
I mean Daemon was responsible for the death of one of "his own kind". And Aemond might still be the bullied kid without a dragon. He's just over compensating with a big pickup truck, I mean dragon. We don't need a Ramsey Bolton in this show, the gray characters on both sides make it conflicting and interesting. Technically Aegon should be King, but who makes the rules?
Why do they show Aemon at the brothel every episode. Surely he does other things in his free time, like idk read about the great sieges of westeros by some archmaester or something?
Despite the tough guy big dragon act he puts on, he still affected by the bullying as a kid. Notice how he's there to cuddle, and how it's only her. It's medeval therapy.
That's fair. At the same time, however, there is no justifiable reason for Alicent to be alone without guards. They're at war, and assassins literally just killed her grandson. Any person, septa or not, would be scrutinized when in close contact with Alicent. It seems the writers tried really hard to make this scene happen by ignoring everything that happened previously. Which is why it feels so contrived, IMO. Not to mention R and Alicent will meet again. So why not save that conversation for when that happens? I go back to my other post where it seems the writers are trying way too hard to make every character sympathetic, and it doesn't need to be.
The show also established Rhaenrya allowed Jace to fly on his dragon throughout the realm. But when his brother died by Aemond she no longer let him leave Dragonstone. Because she knew they were at war. It seems strange an attack on KL where a child was murdered wouldn't change how the royal family is guarded. Another example is Rhaenrya kept her children with her during season 1. She brought them with her whenever she traveled. In season 2 she knew they are in danger, so she sent them across the Narrow Sea to protect them. Something being established doesn't mean it shouldn't change, and a murder of a child should absolutely change Alicent's protection.
Some people love the show so much they will blindly defend it until we get a season 8 type ending for this show. The episode was good up until the rhaenyra sneaking into Alicent scene. The show runners refuse to allow Rhaenyra to do anything that would make her look like a bad person. Like Leanor is killed in the book but in the show they fake his death to avoid killing a gay black character? The only issue with doing that is now in season 2 they have to break the lore of dragon riders having to die in order to take a new rider (sea smoke) or kill Leanor off screen anyway. I didn’t want laenor to die but keeping alive for rhaenyra sake just didn’t make sense.
Some people would rather create plot holes with their own plot lines than follow the source material. Some changes were good changes but in my opinion the last scene and the Viserys misunderstanding from last season at the end of episode 8 is dumb writing. I’m guessing you enjoyed season 8 of Game of Thrones too and criticized everyone else who was critical of it.
Something being implausible is not a plot hole.
A plot hole would be if a character had earlier said “King’s Landing? You might as well kill yourself instead of trying to break into there! It’s surrounded by thousands of guards and they check every person coming in or out, a rat couldn’t sneak in!” And then later show Rhaenyra sneaking in without explaining how she did it.
Instead, we have had several scenes throughout both series showing people sneak in and out of King’s Landing, including one two episodes ago. We also have lines mentioning how risky it was for Rhaenyra to do that. We also have characters whose whole concept is that they are a sneaky person with connections in King’s Landing (Mysaria). We also don’t have any indication of time passing to get her from Dragonstone to King’s Landing. She could have sailed a few days under cover of darkness, she could have taken Syrax low to the ground nearby then got into disguise, she could have waited for some Silent Sister boat to arrive, etc. All of those are possible, and all of those are boring to show, so why show it? Especially when the interesting part of a story is not boring travel logistics and technicalties meant to commit to an abstract sense of realism, but rather the characters and the relationships to each other and the decisions that they make. In my opinion, the scene accomplished that, so I really don’t care about the logistics because I can easily explain it in my brain and I’m here to enjoy the show, not pick at every implausibility.
But for some people that’s not enough. And that’s okay I just think they should stick to their bible (the precious source material) where all the inconsistencies and implausibilities never matter since they already enjoy the story there.
If the Queen Dowager wants the guards to stay on the outside of the Sept, they will stay on the outside of the Sept. The Queen Dowager clearly prefers to pray in silence and in private, or along with close and trusted friends, as she has done all her life. Her continuing to do that is not inconsistent, nor is it unjustifiable, nor is it bad writing. It is the opposite of all of those things.
I guess that's fair, is it possible Allicent insisted she be alone and unguarded because she deep down almost feels she'd deserve it if Rhaenrya got revenge? Or she knows Rhaenrya well enough to know she wouldn't kill her. I don't mind HOTD changing some parts of the book, they could have more of a reason for R and A meeting here. I think having character be evil and not sympathetic at all works a lot better in books then TV especially when it's one of the main character in a show.
i think the next few episodes are going to be breakneck in terms of pacing and big events taking place, only reason i can think of for the relatively slower pace of these first three episodes, i am enjoying the slower pace though, i think if they just went straight into battles and shit like that then you’d have book fans still complaining about the episodes but it would be about “how am i supposed to care if we haven’t spent enough time with the characters” bottom line is book fans are never pleased with anything
i just read this back and it seems like i was generalising far too much, not all book readers are completely unreasonable and picky just the purists is who i was talking about, hope that is clearer here tho.
It seems most of the comment section includes book readers. From a non-book reader, this season has been great. The writing continues to be the best compared to most, if not all television shows airing right now. Attention to detail continues from GOT (seasons 1-6) into HOTD and it is such a breath of fresh air. People may not agree, but that is just my opinion.
I mean it's a fine show. I don't think it's the best thing ever, just better than LOTR tv show or Witcher. It's B Side material from George and adapted / recreated by unknown TV writers we dont know about.
If you want good writing, you should watch something like HBO's Succession, which was the best thing on TV recently.
I highly recommend reading the book before watching the show. Unlike Game Of Thrones this story is complete. I can't imagine waiting over a decade after a cliff hanger and then getting season 8.
There's like two to three bigger battles on slate for this season. There are budget constraints, I'm sure they put a ton of it into the major setpiece of the season.
Once again, I'm not mad they flash cut over the Battle of the Burning Mill. I'm mad that they flash cut over BBM so we could get 15 minutes of our two main characters acting irrationally in a scene that's held no relevance to the story or consistent internal world logic.
Now if the final scene is FINALLY what does it, and we pick up the pace dramatically, the three episodes of putzing around would have been worth it but if this just leads to Rooks Rest in ep 4 and then four more episodes of meandering about the nature of war, gtfo.
I agree. This season pacing has been off so far. People need to understand there’s a difference between slow burn and just slow. Also, before say it i actually loved the earlier seasons of Game of Thrones. House of the dragon season 2 pacing is just bad.
What the hell is going on in the writer's room? Because they've made some… terrible choices. Skimming over the Battle of the Burning Mill, giving my boy Baelon a bastard son, inventing scenes for Gwayne Hightower instead of adapting Black Aly, and Septanyra. This is some GOT S7-S8 writing.
Am I the only one who notices flawed details like burying two knights (arryk and erryk) in full armor as if premium grade armor isn't worth anything? They never ever show any scavenging in got or hotd except for when the hound takes someones boots.
What bothered me was his paper mache armor from last episode is seemingly missing a gaping stab hole from his brothers sword. Hell, neither armor is damaged from their killing blows… it was strange to also bury them on dragon stone rather than send the bones home..
Yeah that bothered me. Not only in their premium armour, “here’s some random pit we dug on Dragonstone, chuck ‘em in and call it a day.” The acting in the scene was good but the setting and details were lacking.
He can still be a dragonseed and still be lying about who his real father is. Not to mention the fact that its not inconceivable that his true parentage could also be another dragonseed.
The dude literally justifies as proof of being a Targaryen bastard by pointing to his "trueborn nephew" Jacaerys Velaryon also not looking like a Targaryen. Who we, as the viewer knows is a bastard between Rhaenyra and Harwin Strong.
I think he is just a son of a dragonseed whose mother either claims his father is Balon the Brave or who has just found it easier to make a living in Kings Landing by claiming himself to be a Targaryen bastard rather than a Dragonseed bastard or even more likely being a nobody.
There will be battles. Battles cost millions of dollars. There weren't even that many actual battles in GOT. Yes, there were a couple of big ones across 8 seasons, but they copped out of the Green Fork in S1.
I was extremely disappointed in HOTD last season where instead of showing Daemon fighting the Crabfeeder they just showed the aftermath much like they did in last nights episode where they just showed the aftermath of the battle between groups that I have no name for! LOL! . It's much cheaper this way. This saves MAX money that they can now spend on game shows and reality tv based shows. The days of MAX dominating the TV landscape are over.
I actually was fine with that. As Glidus said, he didn't like it at first either. But then he realized that it was such a non-challenge to Daemon that it didn't needed to be shown. Daemon just walked in and ended him
I would have liked to have seen that! There hasn't been enough murder and mayhem! I need to see blood! I need to see gore, I need to see people set ablaze by dragons! Otherwise, I'd watch McBeth! Lol!
Shoutout to Simon Beale as Simon Strong. That scene was really classic GoT for me; a simple conversation in a room, expertly delivered and extremely engaging. Septa Rhaenyra was just flat out silly but otherwise a great ep
I love that Daemon prolly got a bit excited that Harrenhal is creepy and he would prolly be met with some resistance...but to Simon immediately folding...
When Septa Rhaenarya sees an unsuspecting Alicent in the streets of King's Landing, did you or did you not think of the words "here is your target, 47" or was that just me?
THAT... is Alicent Hightower, dowager queen to the Seven Kingdoms and mother to the usurper Aegon Targaryen. She is currently making her way to the great sept of King's Landing where she will be praying alone. You know what to do, 47.
That last ten minutes are weird, like, both sides have already sent armies/dragons, both have a battle fought in their names so there was no doubt that the war has begun, when Aegon said about the Burning Mill that "this is war" he wasn't saying that because he was excited for the war, he said it because it was true.
There were so many things that were just.... odd (for lack of better words) this episode. I'm so glad going into the comments I see that I'm not alone lol.
lol you are definitely not alone. I felt vindicated on YouTube as well. Most ASOIAF content creators thought the Sept scene was silly and just plain bad.
This was a disappointing followup from the last episode. Last episode ended so strong with the Cargyll bowl. This was a whimper.
HOTD is so frustrating because it clearly has so much care and thought put into it. Like with Aegon choosing to wear the Conqueror's armour, even though it doesnt fit him. It speaks to his insecurities and aspirations to be more like his namesake rather than his father, even though hes fundamentally a different person to the Conqueror. Its a case of show not tell. Its good.
Then they do this Septa Rhaenyra shit.
I dont understand why they are still pushing the 'lets try for peace, we were childhood friends'. Even putting aside geography, so much has happened that this should barely be on either characters radar.
Making Rhaenyra and Alicent childhood friends was a good choice. Adds a certain tragedy to the eventual fallout and war rather than them being a stepmother and stepdaughter who just hate each other from the start. But the time for 'lets peace' has long since passed. There is no turning back. Arguably there was no turning back since Aemond lost an eye. But there certainly is no turning back now with Lucerys death and Blood and Cheese.
On top of this, the war is fundamentally out of Alicent's control now. Shes not a dragonrider, shes not the Hand, and while she can influence Aegon she cant control him. Rhaenyra trying to make peace with Alicent is an almost pointless gesture. The time where Alicent could control things to such an extent as to stop the war has passed her by.
>But there certainly is no turning back now with Lucerys death and Blood and Cheese.
Good point. As Rhaenys notes, there are many steps up the war ladder, but B&C is definitely the last step, not the second last.
> On top of this, the war is fundamentally out of Alicent's control now. Shes not a dragonrider, shes not the Hand, and while she can influence Aegon she cant control him.
That is exactly what Alicent said, too.
Interesting, personally I felt that the conclusion of their discussion was ultimately the argument you brought up, as Alicent said '"it's too late now." Because of this conclusion, you can argue that the whole scene was pointless, but I feel it's fitting for Rhaenyra's character to deny this fact until she is faced with it directly, just as the scene presented.
I feel that this scene is a clear-cut signal for both Rhaenyra and for the viewers, even the optimistic ones, that the war has 'officially' begun. Even though it might seem obvious that there was never hope for peace, imo there is a place for this scene (and even the entire episode) as some sort of border that marks the beginning of the war.
Oh shush, I know you want it to be more realistic like the books but this is a tv show and it needs sympathetic characters.
So Rhaenyra is gonna try for peace, Alicent is gonna turn her down and feel guilty about it of course so they both sympathetic.
I only care if it’s believable and while this wasn’t in the books I could believe the show’s sympathetic version of Rhaenyra did this
Dragonstone isn’t that far away for it to be unreasonable and I think that was really the very last chance for peace.
Something else horrible to drive the stakes further is probably coming. Rhaenyra only needs one more push, one more slap to the face to drive her over the edge while Alicent has already decided that war is inevitable
Fire and Blood isnt particularly realistic.
My point is Alicent and Rhaenyra have already both tried the 'lets do this peacefully' in the show like twice. And if they follow the books, Alicent is going to try again next season when Rhaenyra takes Kings Landing.
They dont need to keep trying. Its perfectly sympathetic that Rhaenyra, whos lost a son, and Alicent, whos lost a grandchild, would only want war from now on.
Omg I didn’t know if we could use spoilers but they literally could’ve did this scene when Rhaenyra takes Kings Landing instead creating this nonsensical scene. This also lessens the impact of them seeing each other again when she takes Kings landing. I don’t understand these writers and the whole Rhaenyra pretending she does want bloodshed. If Rhaenyra really wanted to end the war and prevent bloodshed she could renounce her claim to the Iron throne. Instead, she expects Alicent who has no power at this point to convince her son who son just got beheaded in his bed to give up his crown? lol
Swear they intentionally make the episodes blacker and blacker and you'll just need to watch at night or fully blackout the room to see the dark scenes
Rhaenyra traveling to King's Landing seems like a stupid decision if you take it at face value. She knows that she's putting herself in great harm for little payoff, it's a leap of faith in order to show Alicent that she truly wants to try for peace. She understands that it is fraught.
People do things when they are in shock - the revelation that the war was started on a misunderstanding, the guilt from realizing that the war was started due to her mistake would be enough to knock anyone off kilter. I understand why Alicent didn't say anything, Rhaenyra was her friend, she just realized she betrayed her, I understand not wanting to do so again, no matter how important it is for her to do so.
Why was this episode slow? Because no one was killed? Is that what you watch this show for?
My feeling was very much that the scene seemed a little contrived to put d'Arcy and Cooke in a room together because they're great together and that they were so good together that I could happily suspend my disbelief at the plausability of the situation for the sake of the character work it accomplished
It’s a crazy plan, but I think it could’ve worked in reality. No one pays attention to nuns really, and most people don’t know what Rhaenyra looks like outside of the red keep and the commoners won’t know her face from Jane doe
People really think they had cellphones in 1018. Most peasants went their entire lives never seeing the face of their rulers shit their lords lmao. Like yeah the plan was dumb but that’s the point Rhaenrya is putting herself on the line before she puts everyone else on it.
It’s a crazy plan, but I think it could’ve worked in reality. No one pays attention to nuns really, and most people don’t know what Rhaenyra looks like outside of the red keep and the commoners won’t know her face from Jane doe
The main issue I had with it the plan itself was that Alicent could have captured Rhaenyra right there and ended the war by telling the guards outside the sept to check all of the septas inside because she left first.
It also changed nothing that Rhaenyra met Alicent. Of course neither of them can stop the wheels turning at this point. As Alicent said, the only way the war ends is one side surrendering. It was a completely pointless addition to the story that made no sense. No monarch is ever going to go incognito into the heart of enemy territory to have a secret meeting that has a 1% chance of stopping a conflict that has already started. What were Rhaenyra’s councillors thinking? Probably that she’d gone off to die or at best get captured. She’s extremely lucky she was wearing so much plot armour here because there’s no reason not to at the very least close the sept after Alicent leaves and search every septa inside. Rhaenyra has one guard with a knife, if a single aspect of the plan had gone awry then the war is over.
I agree with all this, but here’s my counter. It’s possible that Rhaenyra didn’t tell anyone about this, only the kingsguard and Mysaria knew about it.
Also, Alicent still has some affection for Rhaenyra, especially after she denied being involved in Jaeharys’ murder, and her now realizing that she did usurp her and that Vizzy did not change his mind at the end. She may also still feeling guilty and sympathetic about Luke’s death
I also think it’s Rhaenyra risking her life to possible save thousands, including her own children. This war could wipe out her entire line and she was willing to stick her neck out on a one in a million chance that she could prevent that. She’s clearly scared this episode, having her life be directly threatened in the sanctity of her own chambers, where she was supposed to be safest. She sends her young sons away to possibly save them from the horrors to come, and if the price of preventing that is her life, then so be it
Alicent literally committed treason. I hope Larys snitches and tells Aegon lol. Alicent could’ve saved lives (including her kids) by turning Rhaenyra in. Rhaenyra plan was stupid if she didn’t come to surrender and if she did want to save lives she could’ve renounce her claim. Also they could’ve had this scene more naturally when Rhaenyra takes Kings landing.
>I agree with all this, but here’s my counter. It’s possible that Rhaenyra didn’t tell anyone about this, only the kingsguard and Mysaria knew about it.
It doesn't matter, though. If Rhaenyra is captured, she not only risks her own life, but that of her children, friends and allies. She is not just a person anymore.
Criston Cole can send Erryk to Dragonstone because he's arguably expendable, and because it is an assassination. You don't send a *queen* for a *talk*.
The showrunners know that Rhaenyra is safe because they have a book projectory to follow, but they need to write Rhaenyra not knowing she has plot armor.
I agree with you on the poorly written part. It wasn’t too boring but just unbelievable that 3 episodes in after all the betrayal that’s happened on both sides Rhaenyra keeps saying she want to avoid bloodshed but still wants to be the queen of the 6 kingdoms smh.
Rhaenyra going to KL is the dumbest thing I’ve seen this season. The first thing I heard post show was “Rhaenyra and her outlandish plan” so even the writers know it’s crazy.
Alicent dooms thousands by not calling for the guards right then and there. (Well there would still probably be war but still…)
The issue with that is that Daemon would have no real claim himself, Jace would be Rhaenyra’s heir if she was killed, but his claim comes from his mother hiding his illegitimacy, which Aegon wouldn’t accept. Daemon is Aegon’s uncle, so he’s after Aegon and Aemond in the line of succession. If Rhaenyra’s kept alive too then there’s just a stalemate because Jace presumably wouldn’t want to risk his mother’s death and Daemon can’t do much on his own without a real claim to the throne.
Taking her hostage would potentially cause a stalemate unless Daemon just straight up ignores it and fights anyway. But then he'd truly be rogue and lose support soon I'd expect. Whatever he does, not taking a piece off the board for purely sentimental reasons is stupid. If you got all those sentiments then why don't you listen to Rhaenyra and surrender now. Just makes no sense.
Even the reason for going makes no sense. Say it works and alicent is all aboard the plan to avert war. Aegon's son lies dead, he wants blood. What the fuck is alicent gonna say? You've gone out of your way to show alicent is powerless to the men about her, but your gonna go directly to her like she's an ace in the hole? The writing contradicts itself.
Rhaenys: Otto Hightower would never do this, he wouldn't allow assassins to be sent.
Otto's first act after crowing Aegon: Go Lord Commander, kill Rhaenyra and her family, be quick and clean.
Ah but Aegon is an evil menace and the peaceloving Rhaenys and merciful Rhaenyra know better because women have a keen insight into peace being better than war. /s
They spend more tears on the execution of like 50 ratcatchers who very well could have been part of the plot to kill jaehaerys (why would a fisherman or a random fleabottom drunkard care about them). Than rhaenys literally doing a 9/11 on innocent civilians or the greens caring about jaehaerys.
It’s all build up to Targaryen hate in general , Rheanyras slaughter was the first step and now it’s getting worse
Every rat catcher was killed and hung up for everyone to see , it’s unbiased slaughter and the way in which they are displayed is a sinister reminder of how little they matter and how cruel the Targaryens can be.
It’s absolute power used ti it’s worst degree
Of 50 dead men all but one was innocent , these people had families , friends and communities and now they’ve been murdered for something they haven’t done without trial , justice or fairness.
It’s sewing the seeds for hatred against all Targaryens and the monarchy
This may be me talking out of my arse, but what Rhaenys said to Rhaenyra while the Cargyll twins were buried seems particularly pertinent to situations in the Middle East, the US and India today. I found this episode extremely topical, in that regard.
Why were they buried in full plate armor as if that's not worth anything. Someone's gona dig up their corpses and take it. In fact i'm just gona take that as cannon now, since its so obvious that it would happen that it would be stupid not to make it cannon.
Dam its really sad that they decided to make someone defiile Cargyll twins corpses in the show.
Rhaenyra’s plotline was a big waste of time. Remember how season 1 ended with a painful death stare? That moment made a promise, and the show backtracked from delivering on it.
Why even have this goofy weird set up when Alicent will have to spend so much time captive later? The show will have all time time in the world for Alicent and Rhaenyra to discuss everything there is.
The show is too obsessed with it’s decision to make Alicent and Rhaenyra childhood friends. It was a neat idea, but you can’t go back to it time and time again. It starts feeling redundant and not believable at some point.
Also, the whole prophecy misunderstanding was the weakest part of season one. I honestly kinda hoped that they’ll softly retcon it into Alicent wishfully hearing what she wants to hear to cleanse her consciousness. Instead they put even more of an emphasis on it.
Last episode was soooo good, and this one is a very big downgrade.
In a season that only has 8 episodes, the show shouldn’t waste time like that.
That’s actually a really good point that I hadn’t thought of. Originally I said to my friend that while I thought Rhaenyra THAT easily being able to sneak into King’s Landing without consequence was a bit ridiculous. And the whole ‘no one notices women’ thing was like just barely enough to suspend our disbelief. But that I get the necessity of the scene because the way that they’ve set it up, Rhaenyra had to be absolutely sure that there was no way that war could be averted before she’d finally move forward.
But I wasn’t thinking about the end of season one. You are exactly correct. That look from Rhaenyra that closed the season 100% promised “I’m about to burn everything to the ground.” And then yeah, they’ve totally backtracked on that.
Also agree re the whole misunderstanding prophecy thing. And the thing is that it wasn’t even relevant. It’s made clear IN THE NEXT EPISODE that Otto was conspiring with others on the small council to put Aegon on the throne regardless of whatever Alicent does or doesn’t believe Viserys wanted. Like the war would’ve happened whether or not Alicent had that misunderstanding moment because Rhaenyra’s claim would’ve been usurped regardless. So for me it always felt like an odd fan servicey quirk to make Alicent less complicit. The show has done this all around: >!making Aemond killing Lucerys an accident, making Rhaenyra and Daemon explicitly order the murder of Aemond in revenge rather than the vague language of “a son for a son” and Blood and Cheese just go rogue and kill Jaehaerys instead.!< Sometimes it feels a little like they’re unwilling to let their main characters be unlikable.
(Just added the spoiler tags because I don’t know if the flair on this post allows us to talk openly about things in the book.)
It’s even more ridiculous in the context of blood and cheese.
Did they not get the message that the royals should be guarded 24/7 after that?
Aegon just going into a brothel full of strangers is silly on that front as well. But I guess since he made his idiot pals kingsguard, he’s not gonna be checked by them.
It'd even be more impactful if the blunder was revealed after the whole realm has started burning. The only reason for this contrivance was to give Rhaenyra the high ground. But most people already side with her?! Why are they going out of their way now baffles me.
Either that or let us spend some sort of meaningful time with characters that aren’t Rhaenyra or Alicent. Fucking Rooks rest is up next and we still haven’t seen any sight of sunfyre
I just feel like overall they’re trying so hard to make everyone believable and “nice” in a way. There doesn’t need to be a stupid prophecy to plunge the realm into war… because it’s all about people, power, treasons and politics, it’s not about some greater good or the battle of good and evil. The whole “song of ice and fire” seems like a cheap way to give Rhaenyra a reason to fight. But why can’t the human heart in conflict with itself be a reason? Why can’t she be ambitious and fair at the same time? Why does Alicent need to be the “reasonable” member of the Green Council when she clearly had a big part in making all this happen?
People being ambitious makes for good stories because that’s what we all want to see in fictional characters. The Dance of The Dragons is supposed to be a brutal war for THE THRONE and for power. No need to whitewash everyone because it really didn’t feel like everyone had a good side in F&B, and that’s what made it good… the intrigue of a broken, powerful, decadent family.
What made GOT great was it never wasted time, some conversations were obvious and the audience knew so they didn't waste time showing bs in the show. Like tonight's ending, everyone knew Aegon conversation was a misunderstanding, why revisit old information. There's so much more material to cover without backtracking.
This season shouldn't have happened.
That conversation was actually a part I agreed with. The characters both needed to know that misunderstanding happened, since only viewers did. But half the episode was garbage regardless.
They could have saved that for when Rhaenyra takes King's Landing. It would have had a much larger, much more horrific impact imo.
But the writers lacked patience and wanted to get an Alicent/Rhaenyra scene for... reasons
While the Rhaenyra-Alicent conversation added some intrigue in that Rhaenyra will finally understand there is nothing to do but wage war, it was a band aid on a self inflicted wound.
It has been exhausting seeing the show runners give Rhaenyra no follow through. Instead, they want to tell a story where the three primary women in the story attempt to avoid war wherever possible but the men just keep overstepping and pushing things towards war. It’s insulting at this point. Rhaenyra didn’t just lose a son. In the book, it talks about how she lost her daughter and that coupled with her losing the throne was enough for her to start the war.
In short, set Rhaenyra free and let her act like a normal person!
what exactly is the point of making Joffrey, Aegon the Younger, and Viserys so young????? they should be 11, 9, and 7 respectively. is it just because they fucked the timeline up by changing everyone else’s ages? do they plan on having another long time jump?
I’m assuming another long time jump is coming because otherwise the story of her youngest kids won’t be possible. Or they’ll just suddenly be multiple years older the next time we see them, like they did with Jaehaerys and Jaehaera (babies at the end of season 1, school age at the beginning of season 2)
Well that was a weak episode lmao. Nothing of importance happened, just some setup for future battles and logistics. The Rhaenyra Alicent plot line was ridiculous and it felt unnecessary. War is about to go down… there’s no need to talk it out like it’s going to solve anything, and especially risking everything in the process.
The setup and logistics was the best part. I fully enjoyed that... all ready and set for our first battle.
And then the last ten minutes happened and tried to pretend otherwise. What a load of bullshit.
Cannot fathom why people think rhaenyra was at any risk at all of being discovered. Absolutely nobody knows what she looks like, or have only seen her from a great distance maybe ONCE, they don't have any reference images for what any of the royals look like, she's in a disguise that covers everything except her face, nobody is looking for her (why would she be there?) and to top it all off NOBODY CARES! Nobody in king's landing with the exception of the royal court cares one whiff about rhaenyra! They care about sheep and the cost of iron and whether the king is going to randomly execute any other tradesman around town. Why do people think it's like late season game of thrones where people are gathering in the streets to cheer "YEAH GREYJOY"
There are merchants, soldiers, minor lords, servants, gold cloaks, spies, septons etc. who might have seen Rhaenyra from her days as princess in Kings Landing.
Not to mention that the closer she was to Alicent the more likely she was to run into people who might know who she is, Alicent's Kingsguard escort, any palace handmaidens or servants, etc.
Not to mention that Alicent herself could have given Rhaeyra up and ended the war in a heartbeat. Alicent not having Rheayra captured then and there (while knowing full well that there is a civil war starting) is the single dumbest decision I have seen in all of Hotd and GOT.
Your second point makes no sense. The commoners would definately care, given that they would probably be made wealthy beyond their wildest dreams by the hightowers if they helped capture Rhaenyra.
"who might have seen rhaenyra from her days as princess in king's landing" sounds to me like they'd be looking for Milly Alcock!
Rhaenyra addresses your second point immediately: yes, she could have been killed if alicent yelled for help, but she'd be taking alicent down with her, and alicent values her own life. Plus, as many people have pointed out, capturing or killing rhaenyra does not win the war—she has heirs. Did holding ned stark hostage—or executing him—end the conflict between the north and the crown in AGOT?
Finally, There is NO evidence that the crown is asking commoners to keep an eye out for known Black loyalists—it's such a leap to assume that the commoners would be keeping an eye out for rhaenyra AND expect a reward AND know what she looks like AND be able to identify her in disguise AND that the crown would ever take "I saw the princess in disguise! She was a septa! You gotta believe me!" Seriously. What mysaria said is true: people see what they expect to see, and nobody is paying any mind to a modestly-dressed woman in a uniform.
>Not to mention that Alicent herself could have given Rhaeyra up and ended the war in a heartbeat.
This is the only part I disagree. Why would the war end? It's quite the opposite, if Rhaenyra were to get captured or killed, the Blacks would likely win the war somehow "comfortably".
The only reason the war ended so badly for both sides, with everybody exhausted and without a clear winner, was because Rhaenyra was not a warrior so losing her as a dragon rider wouldn't change anything, but she also helped the Greens tremendously with her bad decisions so take her aside and the Greens lose a big asset.
Put someone else in charge, anyone, and suddenly the Black faction gets much stronger.
>Why would the war end? It's quite the opposite, if Rhaenyra were to get captured or killed, the Blacks would likely win the war somehow "comfortably".
So you think jace would continue the war even if it kills his mother ?
Seeing young Rhaenyra was the best part of the episode. Emma is a great actor, but the writing for adult Rhaenyra is so inconsistent and bad I can’t help but miss young Rhaenyra.
Yes, thank you!!! You put what I’ve been feeling into nice words. I love Emma, but Rhae’s characterization as an adult makes no sense. I know some of use mature from childhood, but young R was such a brat and so decisive. She matched Daemon perfectly. Maybe she grew out of it while daemon didn’t, but it seems like she’s gone through the enlightenment of a saint while still caring about a sword throne.
I feel like it’s kinda make sense regarding her age. There’s more to lose, her children, the people. So seeking for peace is a fair and understandable. But there’s just lack of transition between the young bold Rhaenyra and the pacifist adult Rhaenyra. Idk they could have shown a bit more than just what Rhaenys said to her or the apology note from Alicent that made her go for convincing Alicent for peace.
Exactly! Young Rhaenyra and adult Rhaenyra feel like two completely different people. Maybe the way she is as an adult would make more sense if we actually got to see how she reacted to things like pregnancy and motherhood, being given a seat on the small council, her relationship with Harwin, or basically anything that happened in that massive 10 year time jump. Alicent somehow has always felt like the same character, so I don’t understand why Rhaenyra never has.
Yes, Alicent feels the same, I actually enjoy watching her because I feel she’s genuine, even if I disagree with her at times. Same with Daddy Viserys, I thought he was moronic but I freakin loved him anyway because his passive aggressive character made sense, and he comes full circle with his throne hobble. I’d wrap him lovingly in a blanket any day 🤣🤣.
I see a lot of people disliking the episode but I liked it quite a bit. It put an end to the claim of the throne and made Alicent rethink what she did but shows she has no control over anything anymore.
On the other hand, I’m glad they confirmed Ulf. I was waiting for that moment.
Episode 4 should be the peak of the first four episodes because that’s what they’ve been trying to do. I just hoped we didn’t have to wait a week to watch it
I do agree with some that say that they’ve started slow but I think they want to keep books as the focal point and are building around it. There’s not much source material for this and if they used it all, they’d probably be done in 1 season and half instead of 4 that they’ve confirmed
It’s a made up plotline because they are afraid to make the female characters make any morally tough decisions to push the theme that the men are all at fault. Alicent in the book didn’t claim Aegon the heir because she misheard Viscerys (which is still a stupid misunderstanding) btw. Viserys has made many suggestions to adult Alicent in the show including marrying Rhaenyra son Lucerys to Helena (which would’ve avoided the war) yet Alicent refused to honor his wishes when he was alive on multiple occasions but now all of a sudden she claims she usurped the throne because she’s honoring Viserys wishes? Bad writing.
Rhaenyra disguising herself as a septa to have a 3 minute conversation with Alicent is reaching GOT s7/s8 levels of bad. Specifically I was reminded of the “let’s steal a White Walker from Beyond the Wall” plan. It is utterly ridiculous that Rhaenyra *still* thinks peace is possible at this point. Alicent was the voice of reason in that conversation despite being wrong about Viserys’s last wishes.
Are they trying to send the message that Rhaenyra is a terrible leader? Throughout the episode, her council questions her, thinking that she doesn't have what it takes to fight a war. And then she goes and proves them right - she tries to prevent the war by doing something that is incredibly risky but has zero chance of working.
Yeah I think they are unfortunately. They seem to be going the route of “neither of these people are worthy of the throne” which, while true to the book (to a certain extent – it’s still clear GRRM supports the Blacks), is the less interesting approach, imo
> Rhaenyra disguising herself as a septa to have a 3 minute conversation with Alicent is reaching GOT s7/s8 levels of bad.
I thought it would be revealed as a dream, which would have been bad enough. But it was *real???*
Completely agree, it only served to make Rhaenyra look incredibly stupid. Alicent was also stupid for not taking Rhaenyra as prisoner, but that dumb decision is way overshadowed by this entire plan.
Also the scene in the sept was unnecessary. Everything thing they changed has weakened the impact of later plot points. Why not wait till Rhaenyra t***s K**** landing for them to have this conversation. I’m not trying to be overly negative but they are doing a terrible job making characters I care about. The whole “we must avoid this war because men are bloodthirsty” just make the woman they are trying to promote as just look like fools. Also, She could’ve used Misarya for anything to help the war effort and she uses her to sneak into kings landing personally to have a conversation with Alicent who isn’t queen without the intention of surrendering? Stupid. And I’m not saying this to be sexist I loved all the characters in game of thrones male or female. These characters are just poorly written.
I completely agree with you. I’ve been hardcore Team Black ever since I first read F&B, but this episode made me dislike Rhaenyra so much that I don’t even think I want her on the throne anymore because she isn’t smart enough. Right now the only character who can hold my attention is Daemon.
I’m with you there. Not every cool character needs to be shown to be overtly vulnerable. Characters I like that they are fucking up so far is Aemond? Why do we need to see him curled up naked like a baby with a prostitute? Just let him be a cool character. And if he’s gonna be vulnerable do it when narratively makes sense (like Jamie being vulnerable after losing his hand) let it come naturally based on a dramatic change in life.
Yeah, I totally get Aemond having mommy issues, I think all of Alicent’s children do, but his arc this season (if it can even be called that, he’s had like 2 minutes of screen time) feels so painfully on the nose it’s difficult to watch. I don’t mind characters showing vulnerability, Daemon definitely did in this episode with his vision of young Rhaenyra, but it’s so ham-fisted with Aemond.
Yeah we definitely didn’t need the seen of Aegon humiliating him like that. It just makes Aemond look weak. The mommy issues for all of them is understandable but those scenes seemed so out of character with him in the brothel being cuddled.
lol you’re so right this is the “let’s go beyond the wall to steal a white walker and bring it all the way from the wall to kings landing bad” But game of thrones season 7 first 3 episodes were still way more entertaining and sensible.
There was a scene where a girl in a windows threw down a small bag and another girl caught it and handed it to another woman who walks off screen and we start following "ulf" what is the bag and is it important? Am I the only one that caught this
Crazy they try so hard to hide any slip of a nipple on this show but also show someone sucking dick as clear as Nymphomaniac or any porno
They are blueballing the audience with this war
Not sure about the books but I had a great time in this episode. It's been fun so far!
HOW IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT THAT STRAIGHT UP PORN SCENE!? I guess EVERYONE Who likes this show is in to that crap rather than good or even DECENT story telling it’s so GARBAGE And the actors and actresses are SHIT !
Who hurt you?
somebody sucked a dick oh my god who gives a fuck
Actually loved the septa rhaenyra scene!! So many times the driving action for a plot point is a misconception or misunderstanding, and it can become so annoying that it's right in everyone's face if they just SPOKE about it!!! To see Alicent and Rhaenyra speak of what Viserys said and both realize that it was the ramblings of a dying man is refreshing. Then Alicent doubles down even when she has realized her mistake. She has started a war because of her own jealousy and greed because she never privately confronted Rhaenyra with this information in the first place. Alicent feels she has no way out and doubles down, instead of doing her best to get her children, armies, and the small folk out of the cross fire. It is a human drive to always want to be right, even at great cost. It's nice to have this ironed out because it's a horrible plot hole to have the driving force be an easily fixed misconception. Of course getting Rhaenyra to speak with Alicent in person could've been done in a more elaborate or explained way, but it makes sense for the need to be face to face. I mean Rhaenyra didn't even open Alicents letter for ages. And the whole Viserys realization only came about through a back and forth, not something so easily achievable in letters where such a small kernel of information might not be written. For not showing the battle, I get cost wise why they didn't show. I also think showing not telling is important, just showing the dead and instead saving the battle hype for the dragons is important. If you make everything a big battle or high stakes, nothing feels as grand anymore. Non-book reader fyi.
"Why would she even try stopping a conflict that has already started". Sin begets sin begets sin. War leads to more sin and greater evil. "What is the life of a queen worth these days?" perhaps the lives of thousands of banner men and even more common folk. Justice for Rhaenrya is not worth the means to achieve it and its never too late to end a war.
I’d say it’s pretty late when the other side already has an army marching towards you and has killed one of your children
Would you really set the realm ablaze and condemn thousands to death to achieve your own personal justice? Daenerys did.
It absolutely is too late. The greens already started the war many times over and they currently have an army headed towards the riverlands
In the episode Rhaenys speaks about how it doesn't matter by who or when the war started. War begets war begets war. What do you mean "too late"? Too late for what? War is not some discreet action that once started must come to some final completion. At any point along the way peace can be negotiated and reached, even once blood is drawn.
The only way that peace can be achieved is if one of them surrenders. Aegon clearly won’t surrender and Rhaenyra seems to feel the same way, she has to defend herself and her subjects against his attacks
Alys Rivers sounds like Zooey Deschanel.
I was excited to see her but the American accent was super out of left field (as an American myself)
Also, I don't like how they're trying to make every character sympathetic to the viewers. Like Aemond crying in the fetal position. Daemon crying for having Jahaerus killed, etc. Not every bad character/anti-hero has to have a good side to them. Just like in life, some people just are, regardless how it comes off to others. I feel like they emasculated Aemond. Some people are selfish and don't care who they hurt. You don't need to try to humanize them.
These evil selfish people you speak of are still human. Also I must have missed it but when does Daemon cry over killing Jae?
In the harrenhall hallucination
Didn't see he cried! Gotta rewatch it
He had tears in his eyes but I don’t think it was because of Jaehaerys, it was because he realized how badly he fucked up with Rhaenyra. Her younger version articulated what older Rhaenyra couldn’t, that the reason she doesn’t trust Daemon isn’t because of the reasons Viserys didn’t trust Daemon, but because he left her so many times.
I mean Daemon was responsible for the death of one of "his own kind". And Aemond might still be the bullied kid without a dragon. He's just over compensating with a big pickup truck, I mean dragon. We don't need a Ramsey Bolton in this show, the gray characters on both sides make it conflicting and interesting. Technically Aegon should be King, but who makes the rules?
Aegon should not be king
Why was Viserys king?
Why do they show Aemon at the brothel every episode. Surely he does other things in his free time, like idk read about the great sieges of westeros by some archmaester or something?
It's their chance to show weiners, the real plot behind the show
Despite the tough guy big dragon act he puts on, he still affected by the bullying as a kid. Notice how he's there to cuddle, and how it's only her. It's medeval therapy.
The ending scen ebetween Alicent and R was horrible.. Season 7 GOT all over again with the time travel and a contrived plot
Time travel? geez People complain just because now
I hope Rhaenyra bribed the gold cloaks with enough fermented crab so she could sneak in and out.
HOTD has tons of timeskips, though. Rhaenrya didn't teleport there she was probably on boat for like a week and we didn't need to see it
That's fair. At the same time, however, there is no justifiable reason for Alicent to be alone without guards. They're at war, and assassins literally just killed her grandson. Any person, septa or not, would be scrutinized when in close contact with Alicent. It seems the writers tried really hard to make this scene happen by ignoring everything that happened previously. Which is why it feels so contrived, IMO. Not to mention R and Alicent will meet again. So why not save that conversation for when that happens? I go back to my other post where it seems the writers are trying way too hard to make every character sympathetic, and it doesn't need to be.
The show has established that Alicent likes to pray in the Sept alone.
The show also established Rhaenrya allowed Jace to fly on his dragon throughout the realm. But when his brother died by Aemond she no longer let him leave Dragonstone. Because she knew they were at war. It seems strange an attack on KL where a child was murdered wouldn't change how the royal family is guarded. Another example is Rhaenrya kept her children with her during season 1. She brought them with her whenever she traveled. In season 2 she knew they are in danger, so she sent them across the Narrow Sea to protect them. Something being established doesn't mean it shouldn't change, and a murder of a child should absolutely change Alicent's protection.
Some people love the show so much they will blindly defend it until we get a season 8 type ending for this show. The episode was good up until the rhaenyra sneaking into Alicent scene. The show runners refuse to allow Rhaenyra to do anything that would make her look like a bad person. Like Leanor is killed in the book but in the show they fake his death to avoid killing a gay black character? The only issue with doing that is now in season 2 they have to break the lore of dragon riders having to die in order to take a new rider (sea smoke) or kill Leanor off screen anyway. I didn’t want laenor to die but keeping alive for rhaenyra sake just didn’t make sense.
Some people would rather outsmart the show than enjoy it.
Some people would rather create plot holes with their own plot lines than follow the source material. Some changes were good changes but in my opinion the last scene and the Viserys misunderstanding from last season at the end of episode 8 is dumb writing. I’m guessing you enjoyed season 8 of Game of Thrones too and criticized everyone else who was critical of it.
Something being implausible is not a plot hole. A plot hole would be if a character had earlier said “King’s Landing? You might as well kill yourself instead of trying to break into there! It’s surrounded by thousands of guards and they check every person coming in or out, a rat couldn’t sneak in!” And then later show Rhaenyra sneaking in without explaining how she did it. Instead, we have had several scenes throughout both series showing people sneak in and out of King’s Landing, including one two episodes ago. We also have lines mentioning how risky it was for Rhaenyra to do that. We also have characters whose whole concept is that they are a sneaky person with connections in King’s Landing (Mysaria). We also don’t have any indication of time passing to get her from Dragonstone to King’s Landing. She could have sailed a few days under cover of darkness, she could have taken Syrax low to the ground nearby then got into disguise, she could have waited for some Silent Sister boat to arrive, etc. All of those are possible, and all of those are boring to show, so why show it? Especially when the interesting part of a story is not boring travel logistics and technicalties meant to commit to an abstract sense of realism, but rather the characters and the relationships to each other and the decisions that they make. In my opinion, the scene accomplished that, so I really don’t care about the logistics because I can easily explain it in my brain and I’m here to enjoy the show, not pick at every implausibility. But for some people that’s not enough. And that’s okay I just think they should stick to their bible (the precious source material) where all the inconsistencies and implausibilities never matter since they already enjoy the story there.
If the Queen Dowager wants the guards to stay on the outside of the Sept, they will stay on the outside of the Sept. The Queen Dowager clearly prefers to pray in silence and in private, or along with close and trusted friends, as she has done all her life. Her continuing to do that is not inconsistent, nor is it unjustifiable, nor is it bad writing. It is the opposite of all of those things.
I guess that's fair, is it possible Allicent insisted she be alone and unguarded because she deep down almost feels she'd deserve it if Rhaenrya got revenge? Or she knows Rhaenrya well enough to know she wouldn't kill her. I don't mind HOTD changing some parts of the book, they could have more of a reason for R and A meeting here. I think having character be evil and not sympathetic at all works a lot better in books then TV especially when it's one of the main character in a show.
"You will die in this place" Every other character is in a fantasy, Alys Rivers is in a gothic horror
I hope Daemon pulls a Laenor in the end. It wasn't confirmed but I guess this show is filling in the gaps.
i think the next few episodes are going to be breakneck in terms of pacing and big events taking place, only reason i can think of for the relatively slower pace of these first three episodes, i am enjoying the slower pace though, i think if they just went straight into battles and shit like that then you’d have book fans still complaining about the episodes but it would be about “how am i supposed to care if we haven’t spent enough time with the characters” bottom line is book fans are never pleased with anything i just read this back and it seems like i was generalising far too much, not all book readers are completely unreasonable and picky just the purists is who i was talking about, hope that is clearer here tho.
It seems most of the comment section includes book readers. From a non-book reader, this season has been great. The writing continues to be the best compared to most, if not all television shows airing right now. Attention to detail continues from GOT (seasons 1-6) into HOTD and it is such a breath of fresh air. People may not agree, but that is just my opinion.
I mean it's a fine show. I don't think it's the best thing ever, just better than LOTR tv show or Witcher. It's B Side material from George and adapted / recreated by unknown TV writers we dont know about. If you want good writing, you should watch something like HBO's Succession, which was the best thing on TV recently.
I don't read the books, I set them on fire and absorb their essence into my soul, but show has been spot on with how I feel
Book reader here. Absolutely loving all of this, changes and all.
I highly recommend reading the book before watching the show. Unlike Game Of Thrones this story is complete. I can't imagine waiting over a decade after a cliff hanger and then getting season 8.
I'm a book reader who is also loving the changes and how the show is going so far.
How hard would it have been to give us a battle? Edit: all these downvotes guess I’m the only one lol
I'd love battles if the people in them dug ditches and stood on their walls instead of in front of them. Hope they can get it right in this show.
There's like two to three bigger battles on slate for this season. There are budget constraints, I'm sure they put a ton of it into the major setpiece of the season.
Battles cost millions of dollars to film
Once again, I'm not mad they flash cut over the Battle of the Burning Mill. I'm mad that they flash cut over BBM so we could get 15 minutes of our two main characters acting irrationally in a scene that's held no relevance to the story or consistent internal world logic. Now if the final scene is FINALLY what does it, and we pick up the pace dramatically, the three episodes of putzing around would have been worth it but if this just leads to Rooks Rest in ep 4 and then four more episodes of meandering about the nature of war, gtfo.
I agree. This season pacing has been off so far. People need to understand there’s a difference between slow burn and just slow. Also, before say it i actually loved the earlier seasons of Game of Thrones. House of the dragon season 2 pacing is just bad.
What the hell is going on in the writer's room? Because they've made some… terrible choices. Skimming over the Battle of the Burning Mill, giving my boy Baelon a bastard son, inventing scenes for Gwayne Hightower instead of adapting Black Aly, and Septanyra. This is some GOT S7-S8 writing.
Am I the only one who notices flawed details like burying two knights (arryk and erryk) in full armor as if premium grade armor isn't worth anything? They never ever show any scavenging in got or hotd except for when the hound takes someones boots.
What bothered me was his paper mache armor from last episode is seemingly missing a gaping stab hole from his brothers sword. Hell, neither armor is damaged from their killing blows… it was strange to also bury them on dragon stone rather than send the bones home..
Yeah that bothered me. Not only in their premium armour, “here’s some random pit we dug on Dragonstone, chuck ‘em in and call it a day.” The acting in the scene was good but the setting and details were lacking.
> giving my boy Baelon a bastard son, It never occured to you that the person making that claim might be lying?
Except he know he more than likely isn't due to future events regarding him
He can still be a dragonseed and still be lying about who his real father is. Not to mention the fact that its not inconceivable that his true parentage could also be another dragonseed. The dude literally justifies as proof of being a Targaryen bastard by pointing to his "trueborn nephew" Jacaerys Velaryon also not looking like a Targaryen. Who we, as the viewer knows is a bastard between Rhaenyra and Harwin Strong. I think he is just a son of a dragonseed whose mother either claims his father is Balon the Brave or who has just found it easier to make a living in Kings Landing by claiming himself to be a Targaryen bastard rather than a Dragonseed bastard or even more likely being a nobody.
Of course, it did. And he better be lying.
It's obvious HBO no longer wants to spend the money on epic battles
There will be battles. Battles cost millions of dollars. There weren't even that many actual battles in GOT. Yes, there were a couple of big ones across 8 seasons, but they copped out of the Green Fork in S1.
I was extremely disappointed in HOTD last season where instead of showing Daemon fighting the Crabfeeder they just showed the aftermath much like they did in last nights episode where they just showed the aftermath of the battle between groups that I have no name for! LOL! . It's much cheaper this way. This saves MAX money that they can now spend on game shows and reality tv based shows. The days of MAX dominating the TV landscape are over.
I actually was fine with that. As Glidus said, he didn't like it at first either. But then he realized that it was such a non-challenge to Daemon that it didn't needed to be shown. Daemon just walked in and ended him
Tbh would that even be much of a fight? Daemon would just walk in, cut Crabfeeder in half, then walk out
I would have liked to have seen that! There hasn't been enough murder and mayhem! I need to see blood! I need to see gore, I need to see people set ablaze by dragons! Otherwise, I'd watch McBeth! Lol!
The battle with the Crabfeeder probably cost a small fortune! I doubt they cut a one-on-one duel for money.
Bro there are two battles this season what are you crying about
But, but, I like to cry.
One answer: Modern hollywood writing.
Shoutout to Simon Beale as Simon Strong. That scene was really classic GoT for me; a simple conversation in a room, expertly delivered and extremely engaging. Septa Rhaenyra was just flat out silly but otherwise a great ep
> Shoutout to Simon Beale as Simon Strong He looked so much like an aged Samwell Tarly. But he was great
He is such a great actor!
Great to see Falstaff get more work! He is phenomenal as Lavrenti Beria in The Death of Stalin. Highly recommend the movie its Veep in Soviet Russia.
I don't know anything but I live for sassy Rhaenys...like woman is the only one so tired of the Council and everyone in general
Rhaenys does girlboss moment kills dozens to hundreds to peasants refuses to kill the greens Rhaenys war bad, men want war, be better don't kill
I love that Daemon prolly got a bit excited that Harrenhal is creepy and he would prolly be met with some resistance...but to Simon immediately folding...
When Septa Rhaenarya sees an unsuspecting Alicent in the streets of King's Landing, did you or did you not think of the words "here is your target, 47" or was that just me?
Septa Rhaenarya steals a helicopter and flies away in the end.
THAT... is Alicent Hightower, dowager queen to the Seven Kingdoms and mother to the usurper Aegon Targaryen. She is currently making her way to the great sept of King's Landing where she will be praying alone. You know what to do, 47.
That last ten minutes are weird, like, both sides have already sent armies/dragons, both have a battle fought in their names so there was no doubt that the war has begun, when Aegon said about the Burning Mill that "this is war" he wasn't saying that because he was excited for the war, he said it because it was true.
where can i watch the episode?
I'm not quite sure but I think you can watch it on HBO.
There were so many things that were just.... odd (for lack of better words) this episode. I'm so glad going into the comments I see that I'm not alone lol.
lol you are definitely not alone. I felt vindicated on YouTube as well. Most ASOIAF content creators thought the Sept scene was silly and just plain bad.
This was a disappointing followup from the last episode. Last episode ended so strong with the Cargyll bowl. This was a whimper. HOTD is so frustrating because it clearly has so much care and thought put into it. Like with Aegon choosing to wear the Conqueror's armour, even though it doesnt fit him. It speaks to his insecurities and aspirations to be more like his namesake rather than his father, even though hes fundamentally a different person to the Conqueror. Its a case of show not tell. Its good. Then they do this Septa Rhaenyra shit. I dont understand why they are still pushing the 'lets try for peace, we were childhood friends'. Even putting aside geography, so much has happened that this should barely be on either characters radar. Making Rhaenyra and Alicent childhood friends was a good choice. Adds a certain tragedy to the eventual fallout and war rather than them being a stepmother and stepdaughter who just hate each other from the start. But the time for 'lets peace' has long since passed. There is no turning back. Arguably there was no turning back since Aemond lost an eye. But there certainly is no turning back now with Lucerys death and Blood and Cheese. On top of this, the war is fundamentally out of Alicent's control now. Shes not a dragonrider, shes not the Hand, and while she can influence Aegon she cant control him. Rhaenyra trying to make peace with Alicent is an almost pointless gesture. The time where Alicent could control things to such an extent as to stop the war has passed her by.
>But there certainly is no turning back now with Lucerys death and Blood and Cheese. Good point. As Rhaenys notes, there are many steps up the war ladder, but B&C is definitely the last step, not the second last.
> On top of this, the war is fundamentally out of Alicent's control now. Shes not a dragonrider, shes not the Hand, and while she can influence Aegon she cant control him. That is exactly what Alicent said, too.
Interesting, personally I felt that the conclusion of their discussion was ultimately the argument you brought up, as Alicent said '"it's too late now." Because of this conclusion, you can argue that the whole scene was pointless, but I feel it's fitting for Rhaenyra's character to deny this fact until she is faced with it directly, just as the scene presented. I feel that this scene is a clear-cut signal for both Rhaenyra and for the viewers, even the optimistic ones, that the war has 'officially' begun. Even though it might seem obvious that there was never hope for peace, imo there is a place for this scene (and even the entire episode) as some sort of border that marks the beginning of the war.
Oh shush, I know you want it to be more realistic like the books but this is a tv show and it needs sympathetic characters. So Rhaenyra is gonna try for peace, Alicent is gonna turn her down and feel guilty about it of course so they both sympathetic. I only care if it’s believable and while this wasn’t in the books I could believe the show’s sympathetic version of Rhaenyra did this
They literally could did this scene later in the story where it made sense to happen in Kings Landing.
Dragonstone isn’t that far away for it to be unreasonable and I think that was really the very last chance for peace. Something else horrible to drive the stakes further is probably coming. Rhaenyra only needs one more push, one more slap to the face to drive her over the edge while Alicent has already decided that war is inevitable
Fire and Blood isnt particularly realistic. My point is Alicent and Rhaenyra have already both tried the 'lets do this peacefully' in the show like twice. And if they follow the books, Alicent is going to try again next season when Rhaenyra takes Kings Landing. They dont need to keep trying. Its perfectly sympathetic that Rhaenyra, whos lost a son, and Alicent, whos lost a grandchild, would only want war from now on.
Omg I didn’t know if we could use spoilers but they literally could’ve did this scene when Rhaenyra takes Kings Landing instead creating this nonsensical scene. This also lessens the impact of them seeing each other again when she takes Kings landing. I don’t understand these writers and the whole Rhaenyra pretending she does want bloodshed. If Rhaenyra really wanted to end the war and prevent bloodshed she could renounce her claim to the Iron throne. Instead, she expects Alicent who has no power at this point to convince her son who son just got beheaded in his bed to give up his crown? lol
Swear they intentionally make the episodes blacker and blacker and you'll just need to watch at night or fully blackout the room to see the dark scenes
Yeah like I tried watching this episode earlier today and even if I close the blinds and turn up my brightness it was hard to see
I think the undercover mission was cool. Till the end she tries for peace
Such a great episode if we pretend Septa Rhenyra never happened.
I loved it
Rhaenyra traveling to King's Landing seems like a stupid decision if you take it at face value. She knows that she's putting herself in great harm for little payoff, it's a leap of faith in order to show Alicent that she truly wants to try for peace. She understands that it is fraught. People do things when they are in shock - the revelation that the war was started on a misunderstanding, the guilt from realizing that the war was started due to her mistake would be enough to knock anyone off kilter. I understand why Alicent didn't say anything, Rhaenyra was her friend, she just realized she betrayed her, I understand not wanting to do so again, no matter how important it is for her to do so. Why was this episode slow? Because no one was killed? Is that what you watch this show for?
My feeling was very much that the scene seemed a little contrived to put d'Arcy and Cooke in a room together because they're great together and that they were so good together that I could happily suspend my disbelief at the plausability of the situation for the sake of the character work it accomplished
It’s a crazy plan, but I think it could’ve worked in reality. No one pays attention to nuns really, and most people don’t know what Rhaenyra looks like outside of the red keep and the commoners won’t know her face from Jane doe
People really think they had cellphones in 1018. Most peasants went their entire lives never seeing the face of their rulers shit their lords lmao. Like yeah the plan was dumb but that’s the point Rhaenrya is putting herself on the line before she puts everyone else on it.
heavily agreed, the slow burn is great and its so obviously setting up sooo much for the rest of the series, which i love
i liked it. the ending with R going under cover to king's landing was dumb af though.
It’s a crazy plan, but I think it could’ve worked in reality. No one pays attention to nuns really, and most people don’t know what Rhaenyra looks like outside of the red keep and the commoners won’t know her face from Jane doe
The main issue I had with it the plan itself was that Alicent could have captured Rhaenyra right there and ended the war by telling the guards outside the sept to check all of the septas inside because she left first. It also changed nothing that Rhaenyra met Alicent. Of course neither of them can stop the wheels turning at this point. As Alicent said, the only way the war ends is one side surrendering. It was a completely pointless addition to the story that made no sense. No monarch is ever going to go incognito into the heart of enemy territory to have a secret meeting that has a 1% chance of stopping a conflict that has already started. What were Rhaenyra’s councillors thinking? Probably that she’d gone off to die or at best get captured. She’s extremely lucky she was wearing so much plot armour here because there’s no reason not to at the very least close the sept after Alicent leaves and search every septa inside. Rhaenyra has one guard with a knife, if a single aspect of the plan had gone awry then the war is over.
I agree with all this, but here’s my counter. It’s possible that Rhaenyra didn’t tell anyone about this, only the kingsguard and Mysaria knew about it. Also, Alicent still has some affection for Rhaenyra, especially after she denied being involved in Jaeharys’ murder, and her now realizing that she did usurp her and that Vizzy did not change his mind at the end. She may also still feeling guilty and sympathetic about Luke’s death I also think it’s Rhaenyra risking her life to possible save thousands, including her own children. This war could wipe out her entire line and she was willing to stick her neck out on a one in a million chance that she could prevent that. She’s clearly scared this episode, having her life be directly threatened in the sanctity of her own chambers, where she was supposed to be safest. She sends her young sons away to possibly save them from the horrors to come, and if the price of preventing that is her life, then so be it
Alicent literally committed treason. I hope Larys snitches and tells Aegon lol. Alicent could’ve saved lives (including her kids) by turning Rhaenyra in. Rhaenyra plan was stupid if she didn’t come to surrender and if she did want to save lives she could’ve renounce her claim. Also they could’ve had this scene more naturally when Rhaenyra takes Kings landing.
>I agree with all this, but here’s my counter. It’s possible that Rhaenyra didn’t tell anyone about this, only the kingsguard and Mysaria knew about it. It doesn't matter, though. If Rhaenyra is captured, she not only risks her own life, but that of her children, friends and allies. She is not just a person anymore. Criston Cole can send Erryk to Dragonstone because he's arguably expendable, and because it is an assassination. You don't send a *queen* for a *talk*. The showrunners know that Rhaenyra is safe because they have a book projectory to follow, but they need to write Rhaenyra not knowing she has plot armor.
It was a dumb decision but a brave one, certainly an important one as well Willing to risk her life to try prevent war and save thousands.
Boring ep imo Didn’t feel like story progressed at all
That's because they were doing character work. Not every scene can or should drive the plot. Just ask George, lol
You guys just don’t deserve nice things. This was great tv and everyone is bagging on it.
it was boring to people who didn't read the book.
I read the book and not only was the episode boring it was exceptionally poorly written
I read the book and I disagree completely! :)
That’s fine
I agree with you on the poorly written part. It wasn’t too boring but just unbelievable that 3 episodes in after all the betrayal that’s happened on both sides Rhaenyra keeps saying she want to avoid bloodshed but still wants to be the queen of the 6 kingdoms smh.
Exactly, it’s ridiculous, it makes her look really stupid and I hate that
Rhaenyra going to KL is the dumbest thing I’ve seen this season. The first thing I heard post show was “Rhaenyra and her outlandish plan” so even the writers know it’s crazy. Alicent dooms thousands by not calling for the guards right then and there. (Well there would still probably be war but still…)
Daemon would take over the Black cause so that wouldn’t save anything. It is pretty crazy but it’s within the bounds of reason.
The issue with that is that Daemon would have no real claim himself, Jace would be Rhaenyra’s heir if she was killed, but his claim comes from his mother hiding his illegitimacy, which Aegon wouldn’t accept. Daemon is Aegon’s uncle, so he’s after Aegon and Aemond in the line of succession. If Rhaenyra’s kept alive too then there’s just a stalemate because Jace presumably wouldn’t want to risk his mother’s death and Daemon can’t do much on his own without a real claim to the throne.
Taking her hostage would potentially cause a stalemate unless Daemon just straight up ignores it and fights anyway. But then he'd truly be rogue and lose support soon I'd expect. Whatever he does, not taking a piece off the board for purely sentimental reasons is stupid. If you got all those sentiments then why don't you listen to Rhaenyra and surrender now. Just makes no sense.
Even the reason for going makes no sense. Say it works and alicent is all aboard the plan to avert war. Aegon's son lies dead, he wants blood. What the fuck is alicent gonna say? You've gone out of your way to show alicent is powerless to the men about her, but your gonna go directly to her like she's an ace in the hole? The writing contradicts itself.
the writers are showing the people that aren't on reddit that it's war now.
It's giving "let's go beyond the wall to kidnap a white walker" vibes
How incredible is the cinematography and direction of this show? Has to be one of the best looking tv shows I’ve ever seen
Rhaenys: Otto Hightower would never do this, he wouldn't allow assassins to be sent. Otto's first act after crowing Aegon: Go Lord Commander, kill Rhaenyra and her family, be quick and clean.
And rhaenys can’t be wrong about her assessment? Just because a character says it does not make it the truth.
And rhaenys can’t be wrong about her assessment? Just because a character says it does not make it the truth.
The writers kinda forgot characterisations from last season.
*Rhaenys sweating bullets in the background*
Like even last episode they kinda act if aegon is exceptionally stupid for having a better version of ottos plan last season.
Ah but Aegon is an evil menace and the peaceloving Rhaenys and merciful Rhaenyra know better because women have a keen insight into peace being better than war. /s
They spend more tears on the execution of like 50 ratcatchers who very well could have been part of the plot to kill jaehaerys (why would a fisherman or a random fleabottom drunkard care about them). Than rhaenys literally doing a 9/11 on innocent civilians or the greens caring about jaehaerys.
It’s all build up to Targaryen hate in general , Rheanyras slaughter was the first step and now it’s getting worse Every rat catcher was killed and hung up for everyone to see , it’s unbiased slaughter and the way in which they are displayed is a sinister reminder of how little they matter and how cruel the Targaryens can be. It’s absolute power used ti it’s worst degree Of 50 dead men all but one was innocent , these people had families , friends and communities and now they’ve been murdered for something they haven’t done without trial , justice or fairness. It’s sewing the seeds for hatred against all Targaryens and the monarchy
I love how terrifying Harrenhall is. The ghosts, creaks, and Alys too. Truly is a cursed place.
This may be me talking out of my arse, but what Rhaenys said to Rhaenyra while the Cargyll twins were buried seems particularly pertinent to situations in the Middle East, the US and India today. I found this episode extremely topical, in that regard.
Why were they buried in full plate armor as if that's not worth anything. Someone's gona dig up their corpses and take it. In fact i'm just gona take that as cannon now, since its so obvious that it would happen that it would be stupid not to make it cannon. Dam its really sad that they decided to make someone defiile Cargyll twins corpses in the show.
Rhaenyra’s plotline was a big waste of time. Remember how season 1 ended with a painful death stare? That moment made a promise, and the show backtracked from delivering on it. Why even have this goofy weird set up when Alicent will have to spend so much time captive later? The show will have all time time in the world for Alicent and Rhaenyra to discuss everything there is. The show is too obsessed with it’s decision to make Alicent and Rhaenyra childhood friends. It was a neat idea, but you can’t go back to it time and time again. It starts feeling redundant and not believable at some point. Also, the whole prophecy misunderstanding was the weakest part of season one. I honestly kinda hoped that they’ll softly retcon it into Alicent wishfully hearing what she wants to hear to cleanse her consciousness. Instead they put even more of an emphasis on it. Last episode was soooo good, and this one is a very big downgrade. In a season that only has 8 episodes, the show shouldn’t waste time like that.
I get wanting a scene but its still to early for that. KL likely falls during the final episode. So this could have been kept on the backburner.
That’s actually a really good point that I hadn’t thought of. Originally I said to my friend that while I thought Rhaenyra THAT easily being able to sneak into King’s Landing without consequence was a bit ridiculous. And the whole ‘no one notices women’ thing was like just barely enough to suspend our disbelief. But that I get the necessity of the scene because the way that they’ve set it up, Rhaenyra had to be absolutely sure that there was no way that war could be averted before she’d finally move forward. But I wasn’t thinking about the end of season one. You are exactly correct. That look from Rhaenyra that closed the season 100% promised “I’m about to burn everything to the ground.” And then yeah, they’ve totally backtracked on that. Also agree re the whole misunderstanding prophecy thing. And the thing is that it wasn’t even relevant. It’s made clear IN THE NEXT EPISODE that Otto was conspiring with others on the small council to put Aegon on the throne regardless of whatever Alicent does or doesn’t believe Viserys wanted. Like the war would’ve happened whether or not Alicent had that misunderstanding moment because Rhaenyra’s claim would’ve been usurped regardless. So for me it always felt like an odd fan servicey quirk to make Alicent less complicit. The show has done this all around: >!making Aemond killing Lucerys an accident, making Rhaenyra and Daemon explicitly order the murder of Aemond in revenge rather than the vague language of “a son for a son” and Blood and Cheese just go rogue and kill Jaehaerys instead.!< Sometimes it feels a little like they’re unwilling to let their main characters be unlikable. (Just added the spoiler tags because I don’t know if the flair on this post allows us to talk openly about things in the book.)
It’s even more ridiculous in the context of blood and cheese. Did they not get the message that the royals should be guarded 24/7 after that? Aegon just going into a brothel full of strangers is silly on that front as well. But I guess since he made his idiot pals kingsguard, he’s not gonna be checked by them.
Yeah you def think they would’ve battened down the hatches in the aftermath of Lucerys’s death.
It'd even be more impactful if the blunder was revealed after the whole realm has started burning. The only reason for this contrivance was to give Rhaenyra the high ground. But most people already side with her?! Why are they going out of their way now baffles me.
If they were gonna make a filler episode the least they could do is not make it ass
It didn't seem like a filler. It seemed like the brewing of a storm. Other than the last ten minutes, of course. That was some stupid bullshit.
filler and ass is often times synonyms
Seriously. They only have 8 eps this season and that was one of them? Stupid.
Glad someone agrees. Fucking 2 years for 8 episodes, they could at least add some excitement to supposed wartime events. Crazy idea apparently.
Either that or let us spend some sort of meaningful time with characters that aren’t Rhaenyra or Alicent. Fucking Rooks rest is up next and we still haven’t seen any sight of sunfyre
I just feel like overall they’re trying so hard to make everyone believable and “nice” in a way. There doesn’t need to be a stupid prophecy to plunge the realm into war… because it’s all about people, power, treasons and politics, it’s not about some greater good or the battle of good and evil. The whole “song of ice and fire” seems like a cheap way to give Rhaenyra a reason to fight. But why can’t the human heart in conflict with itself be a reason? Why can’t she be ambitious and fair at the same time? Why does Alicent need to be the “reasonable” member of the Green Council when she clearly had a big part in making all this happen? People being ambitious makes for good stories because that’s what we all want to see in fictional characters. The Dance of The Dragons is supposed to be a brutal war for THE THRONE and for power. No need to whitewash everyone because it really didn’t feel like everyone had a good side in F&B, and that’s what made it good… the intrigue of a broken, powerful, decadent family.
What made GOT great was it never wasted time, some conversations were obvious and the audience knew so they didn't waste time showing bs in the show. Like tonight's ending, everyone knew Aegon conversation was a misunderstanding, why revisit old information. There's so much more material to cover without backtracking. This season shouldn't have happened.
That conversation was actually a part I agreed with. The characters both needed to know that misunderstanding happened, since only viewers did. But half the episode was garbage regardless.
They could have saved that for when Rhaenyra takes King's Landing. It would have had a much larger, much more horrific impact imo. But the writers lacked patience and wanted to get an Alicent/Rhaenyra scene for... reasons
Do any characters have any agency? Are they all just waiting for shit to happen to them?
IMO Daemon is the only character with agency at this point, it’s one of the reasons he’s the only interesting character to me at the moment
Except when he's provided useless assassins who cannot find the correct Targaryen
Well yeah, that was dumb.
While the Rhaenyra-Alicent conversation added some intrigue in that Rhaenyra will finally understand there is nothing to do but wage war, it was a band aid on a self inflicted wound. It has been exhausting seeing the show runners give Rhaenyra no follow through. Instead, they want to tell a story where the three primary women in the story attempt to avoid war wherever possible but the men just keep overstepping and pushing things towards war. It’s insulting at this point. Rhaenyra didn’t just lose a son. In the book, it talks about how she lost her daughter and that coupled with her losing the throne was enough for her to start the war. In short, set Rhaenyra free and let her act like a normal person!
what exactly is the point of making Joffrey, Aegon the Younger, and Viserys so young????? they should be 11, 9, and 7 respectively. is it just because they fucked the timeline up by changing everyone else’s ages? do they plan on having another long time jump?
A reasonable compromise when they want to essentially cut them as characters.
I assume the war will take longer in the show and we will see them age a little bit. Just like in GOT.
I’m assuming another long time jump is coming because otherwise the story of her youngest kids won’t be possible. Or they’ll just suddenly be multiple years older the next time we see them, like they did with Jaehaerys and Jaehaera (babies at the end of season 1, school age at the beginning of season 2)
Well that was a weak episode lmao. Nothing of importance happened, just some setup for future battles and logistics. The Rhaenyra Alicent plot line was ridiculous and it felt unnecessary. War is about to go down… there’s no need to talk it out like it’s going to solve anything, and especially risking everything in the process.
The setup and logistics was the best part. I fully enjoyed that... all ready and set for our first battle. And then the last ten minutes happened and tried to pretend otherwise. What a load of bullshit.
Cannot fathom why people think rhaenyra was at any risk at all of being discovered. Absolutely nobody knows what she looks like, or have only seen her from a great distance maybe ONCE, they don't have any reference images for what any of the royals look like, she's in a disguise that covers everything except her face, nobody is looking for her (why would she be there?) and to top it all off NOBODY CARES! Nobody in king's landing with the exception of the royal court cares one whiff about rhaenyra! They care about sheep and the cost of iron and whether the king is going to randomly execute any other tradesman around town. Why do people think it's like late season game of thrones where people are gathering in the streets to cheer "YEAH GREYJOY"
There are merchants, soldiers, minor lords, servants, gold cloaks, spies, septons etc. who might have seen Rhaenyra from her days as princess in Kings Landing. Not to mention that the closer she was to Alicent the more likely she was to run into people who might know who she is, Alicent's Kingsguard escort, any palace handmaidens or servants, etc. Not to mention that Alicent herself could have given Rhaeyra up and ended the war in a heartbeat. Alicent not having Rheayra captured then and there (while knowing full well that there is a civil war starting) is the single dumbest decision I have seen in all of Hotd and GOT. Your second point makes no sense. The commoners would definately care, given that they would probably be made wealthy beyond their wildest dreams by the hightowers if they helped capture Rhaenyra.
"who might have seen rhaenyra from her days as princess in king's landing" sounds to me like they'd be looking for Milly Alcock! Rhaenyra addresses your second point immediately: yes, she could have been killed if alicent yelled for help, but she'd be taking alicent down with her, and alicent values her own life. Plus, as many people have pointed out, capturing or killing rhaenyra does not win the war—she has heirs. Did holding ned stark hostage—or executing him—end the conflict between the north and the crown in AGOT? Finally, There is NO evidence that the crown is asking commoners to keep an eye out for known Black loyalists—it's such a leap to assume that the commoners would be keeping an eye out for rhaenyra AND expect a reward AND know what she looks like AND be able to identify her in disguise AND that the crown would ever take "I saw the princess in disguise! She was a septa! You gotta believe me!" Seriously. What mysaria said is true: people see what they expect to see, and nobody is paying any mind to a modestly-dressed woman in a uniform.
>Not to mention that Alicent herself could have given Rhaeyra up and ended the war in a heartbeat. This is the only part I disagree. Why would the war end? It's quite the opposite, if Rhaenyra were to get captured or killed, the Blacks would likely win the war somehow "comfortably". The only reason the war ended so badly for both sides, with everybody exhausted and without a clear winner, was because Rhaenyra was not a warrior so losing her as a dragon rider wouldn't change anything, but she also helped the Greens tremendously with her bad decisions so take her aside and the Greens lose a big asset. Put someone else in charge, anyone, and suddenly the Black faction gets much stronger.
>Why would the war end? It's quite the opposite, if Rhaenyra were to get captured or killed, the Blacks would likely win the war somehow "comfortably". So you think jace would continue the war even if it kills his mother ?
Seeing young Rhaenyra was the best part of the episode. Emma is a great actor, but the writing for adult Rhaenyra is so inconsistent and bad I can’t help but miss young Rhaenyra.
Yes, thank you!!! You put what I’ve been feeling into nice words. I love Emma, but Rhae’s characterization as an adult makes no sense. I know some of use mature from childhood, but young R was such a brat and so decisive. She matched Daemon perfectly. Maybe she grew out of it while daemon didn’t, but it seems like she’s gone through the enlightenment of a saint while still caring about a sword throne.
I feel like it’s kinda make sense regarding her age. There’s more to lose, her children, the people. So seeking for peace is a fair and understandable. But there’s just lack of transition between the young bold Rhaenyra and the pacifist adult Rhaenyra. Idk they could have shown a bit more than just what Rhaenys said to her or the apology note from Alicent that made her go for convincing Alicent for peace.
Exactly! Young Rhaenyra and adult Rhaenyra feel like two completely different people. Maybe the way she is as an adult would make more sense if we actually got to see how she reacted to things like pregnancy and motherhood, being given a seat on the small council, her relationship with Harwin, or basically anything that happened in that massive 10 year time jump. Alicent somehow has always felt like the same character, so I don’t understand why Rhaenyra never has.
Yes, Alicent feels the same, I actually enjoy watching her because I feel she’s genuine, even if I disagree with her at times. Same with Daddy Viserys, I thought he was moronic but I freakin loved him anyway because his passive aggressive character made sense, and he comes full circle with his throne hobble. I’d wrap him lovingly in a blanket any day 🤣🤣.
I see a lot of people disliking the episode but I liked it quite a bit. It put an end to the claim of the throne and made Alicent rethink what she did but shows she has no control over anything anymore. On the other hand, I’m glad they confirmed Ulf. I was waiting for that moment. Episode 4 should be the peak of the first four episodes because that’s what they’ve been trying to do. I just hoped we didn’t have to wait a week to watch it I do agree with some that say that they’ve started slow but I think they want to keep books as the focal point and are building around it. There’s not much source material for this and if they used it all, they’d probably be done in 1 season and half instead of 4 that they’ve confirmed
It’s a made up plotline because they are afraid to make the female characters make any morally tough decisions to push the theme that the men are all at fault. Alicent in the book didn’t claim Aegon the heir because she misheard Viscerys (which is still a stupid misunderstanding) btw. Viserys has made many suggestions to adult Alicent in the show including marrying Rhaenyra son Lucerys to Helena (which would’ve avoided the war) yet Alicent refused to honor his wishes when he was alive on multiple occasions but now all of a sudden she claims she usurped the throne because she’s honoring Viserys wishes? Bad writing.
Rhaenyra disguising herself as a septa to have a 3 minute conversation with Alicent is reaching GOT s7/s8 levels of bad. Specifically I was reminded of the “let’s steal a White Walker from Beyond the Wall” plan. It is utterly ridiculous that Rhaenyra *still* thinks peace is possible at this point. Alicent was the voice of reason in that conversation despite being wrong about Viserys’s last wishes.
Are they trying to send the message that Rhaenyra is a terrible leader? Throughout the episode, her council questions her, thinking that she doesn't have what it takes to fight a war. And then she goes and proves them right - she tries to prevent the war by doing something that is incredibly risky but has zero chance of working.
Yeah I think they are unfortunately. They seem to be going the route of “neither of these people are worthy of the throne” which, while true to the book (to a certain extent – it’s still clear GRRM supports the Blacks), is the less interesting approach, imo
> Rhaenyra disguising herself as a septa to have a 3 minute conversation with Alicent is reaching GOT s7/s8 levels of bad. I thought it would be revealed as a dream, which would have been bad enough. But it was *real???*
Completely agree, it only served to make Rhaenyra look incredibly stupid. Alicent was also stupid for not taking Rhaenyra as prisoner, but that dumb decision is way overshadowed by this entire plan.
Also the scene in the sept was unnecessary. Everything thing they changed has weakened the impact of later plot points. Why not wait till Rhaenyra t***s K**** landing for them to have this conversation. I’m not trying to be overly negative but they are doing a terrible job making characters I care about. The whole “we must avoid this war because men are bloodthirsty” just make the woman they are trying to promote as just look like fools. Also, She could’ve used Misarya for anything to help the war effort and she uses her to sneak into kings landing personally to have a conversation with Alicent who isn’t queen without the intention of surrendering? Stupid. And I’m not saying this to be sexist I loved all the characters in game of thrones male or female. These characters are just poorly written.
I completely agree with you. I’ve been hardcore Team Black ever since I first read F&B, but this episode made me dislike Rhaenyra so much that I don’t even think I want her on the throne anymore because she isn’t smart enough. Right now the only character who can hold my attention is Daemon.
I’m with you there. Not every cool character needs to be shown to be overtly vulnerable. Characters I like that they are fucking up so far is Aemond? Why do we need to see him curled up naked like a baby with a prostitute? Just let him be a cool character. And if he’s gonna be vulnerable do it when narratively makes sense (like Jamie being vulnerable after losing his hand) let it come naturally based on a dramatic change in life.
Yeah, I totally get Aemond having mommy issues, I think all of Alicent’s children do, but his arc this season (if it can even be called that, he’s had like 2 minutes of screen time) feels so painfully on the nose it’s difficult to watch. I don’t mind characters showing vulnerability, Daemon definitely did in this episode with his vision of young Rhaenyra, but it’s so ham-fisted with Aemond.
Yeah we definitely didn’t need the seen of Aegon humiliating him like that. It just makes Aemond look weak. The mommy issues for all of them is understandable but those scenes seemed so out of character with him in the brothel being cuddled.
lol you’re so right this is the “let’s go beyond the wall to steal a white walker and bring it all the way from the wall to kings landing bad” But game of thrones season 7 first 3 episodes were still way more entertaining and sensible.