I always liked how our first interaction with the Others, literally the prologue of A Game of Thrones, they're just assholes. As our boy, Ser Waymar Royce is dueling like an absolute g, they're just snickering and mocking him. It's in an alien language, but it's very obvious they have personalities. Meanwhile, in the show, it's just a posse of blue, sometimes naked, icemen who say nothing and raise their arms like "What's up, dawg!"
The Others have not intelligibly spoken to humans in five books and behave like a disease or a natural disaster rather then. If we were meant to perceive them as a sophisticated civilization then GRRM has too cleverly concealed any sign of that from readers. They don’t talk to humans, express any interest in bargaining, or express any comprehensible emotions other than scorn and cruelty.
Don’t get me wrong, I like your idea of doing a treaty or renewing a pact, but it’s not exactly crazy for fans to see the Others as a supernatural force of destruction since that’s literally all we’ve seen them do for the entire series up until now.
Well I believe George said that part of his idea when creating the Others were inspired by legends of fairies, I believe he specifically mentioned the Sidhe of Irish legend. And the thing about fairies is while they can be bargained with (like a raster) most of the time they’re massive assholes that have no problem tormenting people for their own amusement because…well because they can. And the very first chapter we see them laughing at Waymar Royce as he fights for his life, trying to make sport out of him. I like the way they’re portrayed, it makes them genuinely chilling (hah) antagonists.
That’s a far cry from the orcs of Tolkien’s work, who are characterized as living wretched, short, brutal lives enslaved by their master and so that’s why they commit acts of evil.
Because George wrote them that way on purpose to elicit that exact response. They're hard to understand, look different than us, have weird language, and unclear goals and motivation.
They are [the other](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_%28philosophy%29?wprov=sfla1). We are evolutionarily programmed to respond to the other with suspicion and fear. Tribalism is the baseline response and hard to escape.
Feeling empathy for the Wildlings is easy mode for the reader. Trying to attempt empathy for the Others is the real test.
Or they're just ice orcs and they get genocided by Jon waving a flaming magic sword. Who am I to say.
The Night’s Watch others the Wildlings but then tries to learn to get along to fight the Others, just to realize that they’ve both othered the Others as well? The same narrative of othering being played out with the same group of people, in the same region, again? Yeah, no. Almost nothing suggests the Others are more sympathetic than they appear. Everything in the narrative, from the perspectives of multiple, different groups of people viewing them as bad; the stories and accounts of them portraying them as bad; to the thematic construction of the series itself with “Winter is Coming,” the promise of a long winter after a short summer, that winter and the cold is death not only in the literal sense, but that it brings an end to childhood and blissfull ignorance; suggests that the force that is coming with the winter is not one to be negotiated with.
The perspective of multiple humans paints the Others as bad? How shocking. Next you'll tell me the perspective and myths of multiple Marchers paints the Dornish as bad.
We’re five books in. At some point you’re going to have to start believing the text. Because it’s not just the voice of the characters, it’s the voice of the author. Truths are revealed when multiple people come to the same conclusion. Truths are also revealed through theme.
Yeah 5 books in and they're still intentionally mysterious and vague and we know very little about them.
We've literally had this exact same conversation though so I don't want to rehash it. We'll know when we know.
The Others aren't evil, they're a weapon of the Children of The Forest gone wrong. They are their equivalent of Dragons; their nuclear option if you will. From a war theme perspective fire and ice represent elecalating weapons against each other IMO. We will see hopefully.
The Others murder at will to recruit more soldiers into their army. I’m sorry but I don’t see how they can be anything other than a force of evil. They don’t seem particularly interested in negotiating.
Where do you get they murder at will? We've only seen others kill two people in Waymar and Small Paul. And you could argue in each case the others were responding to an incursion.
You say they aren't interested in negotiating but doesn't that ignore the arrangement they had with Craster? They didn't kill him or his daughters at will. Clearly the two sides worked something out.
>At Hardhome, with six ships. Wild seas. Blackbird lost with all hands, two Lyseni ships driven aground on Skane, Talon taking water. Very bad here. Wildlings eating their own dead. Dead things in the woods. Braavosi captains will only take women, children on their ships. Witch women call us slavers. Attempt to take Storm Crow defeated, six crew dead, many wildlings. Eight ravens left. Dead things in the water. Send help by land, seas wracked by storms. From Talon, by hand of Maester Harmune.
There is no mention of others or an army of dead in the letter sent from Pyke. The largest threat to Wildlings there are slavers not others.
The attempt to take StormCrow seems to be from Wildlings not others or wights.
I don't doubt Wildlings are fighting undead. But it might not be others doing it. They don't have a monopoly on telekinesis.
In the context of the books, if you're saying waging war and using bodies for battle is "evil" the humans then are many times more so.
They took tribute from Craster for sure and probably the Black Gate too, so why would both parties be doing that if not by implicit or even explicit agreement through negotiation?
I think Craster's situation is a bit more like feeding a wild animal, he hasn't mastered negotiations he's mastered food conditioning. They really like Craster's baby boys, some blood magic going on. Maybe the first time they attacked they took his son/sons and realized what they had so it becomes mutually exclusive - they let him live there as long as he keeps churning out baby boys and leaving them outside every so often.
We’ve only seen them twice so far, so it’s a little early to draw broad conclusions about them. There isn’t even any solid evidence that they are the ones raising and controlling the wights.
Martin says there will be no doomsday battle between good and evil in Asioaf. So whatever conflict arises with the Others, it won’t be that.
And so far, there is no sign that the Others are moving south or are interested in the wall. And even the evidence that they are the ones raising and controlling the wights is sketchy.
Plus there is the fact that it’s a song of ice *and* fire, not ice against fire. So there is reason to think Jon could be a peacemaker here, not a conquering hero.
Because it's easy. We've been programed to view *the other* as not being human at all. Humans do this in every conflict with a group of rival humans. We tell ourselves the other side isn't even human. This makes it easier to brutalize and exploit the other. And we laugh at anyone who suggests we should treat the other with respect, or negotiate a peace with them.
We can barely do this when we look like the humans with whom we're in conflict. What hope is there for humans who look to be made of ice, speak in cracking ice and have cold blue eyes?
We assume the worst of them because we know so little about them. But if we could spend some time with them, we might realize--as Jon did with the Wildlings, these are humans just like us who look up at the same stars, hope for prosperity and love their children just as we do.
If we could set aside our prejudices and have more sex with them--also as Jon did-- we could end the conflict. The key is to make love; not war.
I was just thinking about that this morning ironically enough, that one of the best subversions of the series would be the Others turning out to be quasi-good guys, just misunderstood by the realm due to half-remembered stories and legends. Obviously the Others are Ice.
Now look at Fire. Targaryens are crazy, Melisandre is an evil sorceress, R'hlor seems to demand immolation of heretics as sacrifice, etc. There's a persistent sinister undertone to everything to do with Fire.
As for the Others, the literally two times we see them in the story, it's entirely possible they're only responding to an incursion. There's always reference to the North forgetting something. My personal theory is that the Night King (book legend, not show) was actually a Stark who entered into a marriage alliance with the Others and there was a pact in place, and that this is what the North forgot.
I read the Others as primarily a metaphor for climate change — in that end, them being an unstoppable force that can’t be reasoned with or treated with diplomacy fits better.
The metaphor kinda becomes moot if we can just strike a bargain with the unstoppable wave of death the world is ignoring, right?
I mean even thematically, what’s the point of clearly framing them as this thing that *must* be stopped, while the world is preoccupied with petty squabbles, if they’re just a group of people that will be stopped with some treaty?
I just feel like the central critique of politics, war, and the “game” of thrones kind of falls apart if the Others aren’t treated this way.
I don't understand this refusal to accept that The Others have nothing to do with Climate Change.
George has been explicit that it was never his intention, and any parralels are a coincdence. I think he's even gone as far as saying he doesn't like allegory as a writing device (like Tolkien).
Yet fans still think this is supposed to be some geopolitical commentary on climate change when he started writing the books in 1992
Because the fandom unfortunately has been raised on the world of Orcs vs The Latest Alliance. An entirely human drama is very difficult for people to accept, so they mistakenly believe this story is like that. It's heart warming to see someone who can see past the JRRT mindset. Thank you.
I recently put up part one of a theory about Jon and Dany showing how oddly close their plot notes mirror eachother. Jon is definitely the champion of the Ice faction who will gain leadership or assistance from the Others, just as Dany is champion of Fire. It has been so clearly spelled out from the first book. Even Melisandre sees Jon leading the skulls in one of her visions in her PoV. Like most readers, Mel thinks it's a threat to his life. People as so used to a hero's journey epic they just can't see anything else
Why would the others care about jon becoming king of the north? Thats being established with the northern lords via robb’s will. I think it makes the series more compelling that all the rival groups must band together and stop the driving force from the north. Some will be more inclined to help, and some not so much. It will be interesting to see how those pieces fall
I always liked how our first interaction with the Others, literally the prologue of A Game of Thrones, they're just assholes. As our boy, Ser Waymar Royce is dueling like an absolute g, they're just snickering and mocking him. It's in an alien language, but it's very obvious they have personalities. Meanwhile, in the show, it's just a posse of blue, sometimes naked, icemen who say nothing and raise their arms like "What's up, dawg!"
The Others have not intelligibly spoken to humans in five books and behave like a disease or a natural disaster rather then. If we were meant to perceive them as a sophisticated civilization then GRRM has too cleverly concealed any sign of that from readers. They don’t talk to humans, express any interest in bargaining, or express any comprehensible emotions other than scorn and cruelty. Don’t get me wrong, I like your idea of doing a treaty or renewing a pact, but it’s not exactly crazy for fans to see the Others as a supernatural force of destruction since that’s literally all we’ve seen them do for the entire series up until now.
Well I believe George said that part of his idea when creating the Others were inspired by legends of fairies, I believe he specifically mentioned the Sidhe of Irish legend. And the thing about fairies is while they can be bargained with (like a raster) most of the time they’re massive assholes that have no problem tormenting people for their own amusement because…well because they can. And the very first chapter we see them laughing at Waymar Royce as he fights for his life, trying to make sport out of him. I like the way they’re portrayed, it makes them genuinely chilling (hah) antagonists. That’s a far cry from the orcs of Tolkien’s work, who are characterized as living wretched, short, brutal lives enslaved by their master and so that’s why they commit acts of evil.
Because George wrote them that way on purpose to elicit that exact response. They're hard to understand, look different than us, have weird language, and unclear goals and motivation. They are [the other](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_%28philosophy%29?wprov=sfla1). We are evolutionarily programmed to respond to the other with suspicion and fear. Tribalism is the baseline response and hard to escape. Feeling empathy for the Wildlings is easy mode for the reader. Trying to attempt empathy for the Others is the real test. Or they're just ice orcs and they get genocided by Jon waving a flaming magic sword. Who am I to say.
The Night’s Watch others the Wildlings but then tries to learn to get along to fight the Others, just to realize that they’ve both othered the Others as well? The same narrative of othering being played out with the same group of people, in the same region, again? Yeah, no. Almost nothing suggests the Others are more sympathetic than they appear. Everything in the narrative, from the perspectives of multiple, different groups of people viewing them as bad; the stories and accounts of them portraying them as bad; to the thematic construction of the series itself with “Winter is Coming,” the promise of a long winter after a short summer, that winter and the cold is death not only in the literal sense, but that it brings an end to childhood and blissfull ignorance; suggests that the force that is coming with the winter is not one to be negotiated with.
The perspective of multiple humans paints the Others as bad? How shocking. Next you'll tell me the perspective and myths of multiple Marchers paints the Dornish as bad.
We’re five books in. At some point you’re going to have to start believing the text. Because it’s not just the voice of the characters, it’s the voice of the author. Truths are revealed when multiple people come to the same conclusion. Truths are also revealed through theme.
Yeah 5 books in and they're still intentionally mysterious and vague and we know very little about them. We've literally had this exact same conversation though so I don't want to rehash it. We'll know when we know.
Lol it’s you. I didn’t even realize.
The Others aren't evil, they're a weapon of the Children of The Forest gone wrong. They are their equivalent of Dragons; their nuclear option if you will. From a war theme perspective fire and ice represent elecalating weapons against each other IMO. We will see hopefully.
The Others murder at will to recruit more soldiers into their army. I’m sorry but I don’t see how they can be anything other than a force of evil. They don’t seem particularly interested in negotiating.
Where do you get they murder at will? We've only seen others kill two people in Waymar and Small Paul. And you could argue in each case the others were responding to an incursion. You say they aren't interested in negotiating but doesn't that ignore the arrangement they had with Craster? They didn't kill him or his daughters at will. Clearly the two sides worked something out.
Tales from hardhome and beyond the wall are pretty definitive. The army of the dead is rolling through villages and killing everyone.
>At Hardhome, with six ships. Wild seas. Blackbird lost with all hands, two Lyseni ships driven aground on Skane, Talon taking water. Very bad here. Wildlings eating their own dead. Dead things in the woods. Braavosi captains will only take women, children on their ships. Witch women call us slavers. Attempt to take Storm Crow defeated, six crew dead, many wildlings. Eight ravens left. Dead things in the water. Send help by land, seas wracked by storms. From Talon, by hand of Maester Harmune. There is no mention of others or an army of dead in the letter sent from Pyke. The largest threat to Wildlings there are slavers not others. The attempt to take StormCrow seems to be from Wildlings not others or wights. I don't doubt Wildlings are fighting undead. But it might not be others doing it. They don't have a monopoly on telekinesis.
In the context of the books, if you're saying waging war and using bodies for battle is "evil" the humans then are many times more so. They took tribute from Craster for sure and probably the Black Gate too, so why would both parties be doing that if not by implicit or even explicit agreement through negotiation?
I think Craster's situation is a bit more like feeding a wild animal, he hasn't mastered negotiations he's mastered food conditioning. They really like Craster's baby boys, some blood magic going on. Maybe the first time they attacked they took his son/sons and realized what they had so it becomes mutually exclusive - they let him live there as long as he keeps churning out baby boys and leaving them outside every so often.
We’ve only seen them twice so far, so it’s a little early to draw broad conclusions about them. There isn’t even any solid evidence that they are the ones raising and controlling the wights.
Martin says there will be no doomsday battle between good and evil in Asioaf. So whatever conflict arises with the Others, it won’t be that. And so far, there is no sign that the Others are moving south or are interested in the wall. And even the evidence that they are the ones raising and controlling the wights is sketchy. Plus there is the fact that it’s a song of ice *and* fire, not ice against fire. So there is reason to think Jon could be a peacemaker here, not a conquering hero.
Because it's easy. We've been programed to view *the other* as not being human at all. Humans do this in every conflict with a group of rival humans. We tell ourselves the other side isn't even human. This makes it easier to brutalize and exploit the other. And we laugh at anyone who suggests we should treat the other with respect, or negotiate a peace with them. We can barely do this when we look like the humans with whom we're in conflict. What hope is there for humans who look to be made of ice, speak in cracking ice and have cold blue eyes? We assume the worst of them because we know so little about them. But if we could spend some time with them, we might realize--as Jon did with the Wildlings, these are humans just like us who look up at the same stars, hope for prosperity and love their children just as we do. If we could set aside our prejudices and have more sex with them--also as Jon did-- we could end the conflict. The key is to make love; not war.
I was just thinking about that this morning ironically enough, that one of the best subversions of the series would be the Others turning out to be quasi-good guys, just misunderstood by the realm due to half-remembered stories and legends. Obviously the Others are Ice. Now look at Fire. Targaryens are crazy, Melisandre is an evil sorceress, R'hlor seems to demand immolation of heretics as sacrifice, etc. There's a persistent sinister undertone to everything to do with Fire. As for the Others, the literally two times we see them in the story, it's entirely possible they're only responding to an incursion. There's always reference to the North forgetting something. My personal theory is that the Night King (book legend, not show) was actually a Stark who entered into a marriage alliance with the Others and there was a pact in place, and that this is what the North forgot.
You mean a Night's King, right?
I read the Others as primarily a metaphor for climate change — in that end, them being an unstoppable force that can’t be reasoned with or treated with diplomacy fits better. The metaphor kinda becomes moot if we can just strike a bargain with the unstoppable wave of death the world is ignoring, right? I mean even thematically, what’s the point of clearly framing them as this thing that *must* be stopped, while the world is preoccupied with petty squabbles, if they’re just a group of people that will be stopped with some treaty? I just feel like the central critique of politics, war, and the “game” of thrones kind of falls apart if the Others aren’t treated this way.
I don't understand this refusal to accept that The Others have nothing to do with Climate Change. George has been explicit that it was never his intention, and any parralels are a coincdence. I think he's even gone as far as saying he doesn't like allegory as a writing device (like Tolkien). Yet fans still think this is supposed to be some geopolitical commentary on climate change when he started writing the books in 1992
They're not though. Maybe the White Walkers are, but the Others are straight assholes
Because the fandom unfortunately has been raised on the world of Orcs vs The Latest Alliance. An entirely human drama is very difficult for people to accept, so they mistakenly believe this story is like that. It's heart warming to see someone who can see past the JRRT mindset. Thank you. I recently put up part one of a theory about Jon and Dany showing how oddly close their plot notes mirror eachother. Jon is definitely the champion of the Ice faction who will gain leadership or assistance from the Others, just as Dany is champion of Fire. It has been so clearly spelled out from the first book. Even Melisandre sees Jon leading the skulls in one of her visions in her PoV. Like most readers, Mel thinks it's a threat to his life. People as so used to a hero's journey epic they just can't see anything else
Why would the others care about jon becoming king of the north? Thats being established with the northern lords via robb’s will. I think it makes the series more compelling that all the rival groups must band together and stop the driving force from the north. Some will be more inclined to help, and some not so much. It will be interesting to see how those pieces fall