Im GRRMs original proposal for the series, a much less likable Jaime Lannister schemes his way to the throne. There’s a bunch of language in AGOT associating Jaime with kingliness which suggests to me that GRRM was probably still considering that possibility throughout the first book.
One of the weirder moments is how much emphasis Ned put on Jaime sitting the iron throne. Yet when Ned told Robert he didn’t care and just said Jaime was warming the seat for him.
Is it weird? Ned is the first person (essentially) to find that he killed Aerys...Ned's harsh judgement and assumptions of Jamie's intentions follow him for the rest of his life as he is known as the Kingslayer. If someone else had come through that door he might shared why he killed his king - he didn't even bother explaining to Stark because he knew his mind was made up the second he saw him - thus the Kingslayer as we know him was created at that moment.
Ned is all about honor and holding to sacred vows. As expressed by his staunch adherence to his religion and his convictions. In his mind a man does not do an action as Jaime had done, sit atop the iron throne, unless that man had actual intentions of doing so. Plus the fact that Jaime had just slain the king despite being sworn to the kings protection, and the iron throne is like 15 feet tall and takes some effort climbing up.
Robert doesn't generally seem to give a shit about any sort of actions or vows. Ned repeatedly expects more out of him, and Robert's keeps falling short.
Probably, but there’s a thematic element here as well. Jon, perhaps because of his age, displays some innocent naivete of what it means to be king.
Many of the Reachermen and Stormlanders fall for the same trick with Renly, and Aegon is probably gonna catch his share of freebies with it too.
But yeah, considering the Warden of East plot is just dropped, George probably changed his mind too.
I think fAegon's introduction in ACOK partly arose out of GRRM trying to replace Jaime as "the guy in charge when Daenerys invades."
Now that I think about it, King Jaime dying in a Daenerys induced wildfire explosion would have been pretty ironic.
There are other hints that don’t directly relate to The Blackfyres as well, such as Varys not mentioning him to Ned in the black cells, or the repeated mentions of him being left unrecognizable in the books.
Including the "careful, Jamie is also the heir and next Warden of the West". This was obviously before being a member of the kingsguard was equal to not being in line to inherit anything.
yea I think grrm was a little confused here. the first book also has the firing of Barristan, during which he says something along the lines of "I gave up my claim on my ancestral seat, my fiance married my cousin, I didn't need lands or sons - I promised I would live my life for the realm."
so grrm sorta has it both ways in GoT. maybe he was considering that warden titles do pass to the first son regardless of other vows, but he makes no mention of a similar thing happening with the Starks on the Wall. I feel like he mostly dropped the whole warden thing anyway, but maybe it will be important later.
I always felt that this was an acknowledgment that everyone knew Tywin had no intention of Tyrion being his heir and always planned to somehow inveigle a way for Jaime to be released from his vows. I mean once Joffrey is King Tywin is the Kings Grandsire and can simply ask his Grandson to set a new precedent.
I do agree, and firing Barristan was probably a part of that - after Bobby dies. before the kings death Tywin can make any plans he wants, but he's 20 years older than the king, he shouldn't just expect that he'll outlive Bobby to be able to make Jaime his heir again (even plots to kill him aren't assured, and I don't think Tywin is that impulsive.)
The conversations about Jaime being double warden happen while Bobby is alive so I'm not sure.
Hmm, Robert is obese, an alcoholic, whores around in an era without STD protection, and regularly partakes in dangerous hobbies like boar hunting an melees.
I kinda think Tywin felt it was perfectly possible he would outlive him!
Because Wardens never come up again. They show up pretty much nowhere else and don't actually seem to do anything. Can the Warden of the West command the Greyjoys? East on Baratheons? Can the Tyrells as the Warden of the South command Dorne?
It makes no sense with what we are given for their organization. It is telling because it disappears after the first book other than hyping Tywin up as Warden of the West. It doesn't really play in Fire and Blood or the rest of Westeros' history
I’ve always assumed Wardens were basically military generals in times the Iron Throne ever had to go to war against a foreign enemy. Say a united Seven Kingdoms faces an Other invasion, the Warden of the West would command the united hosts of the Greyjoys and Lannisters, the Warden of the North would command the united hosts of the Starks and Tullys etc.
Basically the equivalent of a four star general in real life. The Warden would be the most competent commander (not necessarily a lord of a Great House even) and be hand picked by the King to avoid clashing between the lords of Great Houses over who leads a combined army. Since from AGOT, the realm dissolves into civil war, the concept becomes irrelevant.
Except they had never experienced a real external invasion.
Their conquest of Dorne was led directly by the King. The War of Ninepenny Kings was led by the Crown Prince.
And no way would any of the Great Houses agree to obey another lord. They would coordinate but none would submit themselves to the authority of another.
> Except they had never experienced a real external invasion.
Just because you haven’t experienced an external invasion doesn’t mean you don’t prepare for it.
> And no way would any of the Great Houses agree to obey another lord. They would coordinate
That’s what I mean. Obviously, Stark bannermen will remain loyal to their lord Stark but the man in charge of coordinating the movements, tactics and targets of a combined host would be the Warden. Otherwise you’d have infighting if say Stark and Tully had bad blood or were rivals which is *not* what you want when you’re fighting an external war.
But what do you do if the King is not a martial figure like Daeron I? Or has no sons able to command? Also, there are Seven Kingdoms which means several armies to raise and coordinate, splitting it into four armies led by four of the greatest commanders in Westeros is much more sensible.
They aren't getting invaded from 4 directions at once.
The King has some sort of martial figure he can send. He has the kingsguard, the Hand, various other lords, etc. He would have some central authority figure having final say, even if advised by others.
Particularly because managing armies is one of the central jobs of a lord. The King would have enough training to be at a war council and listen to his advisors.
Yeah but having Tywin be the Warden of the West and Jaime the East still might be a little worrying for Ned. And it makes sense that a lot of people talk about it because it’s a pretty major title for somebody. Also it’s not an organization or even an inheritance, it’s simply a title. If war breaks out, then Jaime can raise an army in the Vale. Also there is no disputing that a Kingsguard can take up this position
Yeah one thing I love AGOT for is how experimental it feels in certain plot points, I don’t know if George had even abandoned the idea of a trilogy yet
The first book having a mystery for the main character to solve that we know the answer to (Jaime being the father of Roberts children) and having a mystery for the reader to solve that the main character knows the answer to but we don't (jon snows true parents) is incredibly interesting and probably what makes it such a fun read despite the endless food descriptions and bazillion names to remember.
> endless food descriptions
That part never changed.
> bazillion names to remember
That part arguably got worse as time went on, especially with all the goddamn Mereenese names.
The Blackfyres are the obvious one, though they’re not so much a “retcon” as a rather late addition to the in-universe history. Which is fine since few authors flesh out 100% of their world’s backstory right at the start, but the Blackfyres stick out given just how incredibly important they are to Westerosi history.
I remember someone once theorized that based on the setup from AGoT and ACoK, the mummer’s dragon in Martin’s early ideas for the series would have most likely been related to the conflict between Aegon IV and Aemon the Dragonknight. And it’s easy to see how Martin took the Aegon-Aemon template and used it to write a more substantive conflict with Daeron-Daemon.
It's a retcon. If you pay attention to the Varys Illyrio conversation that Arya overhears in the tunnels under the red keep, they are clearly talking about Viserys's invasion. But GRRM wanted Dany to be alone in her invasion so he retconned it to be a new character. Also to make sense of the "slayer of lies" and "mummer's dragon" prophecy.
Illyrio knew that Viserys insisted on joining the Dothraki to Vaes Dothrak, and both him and Varys had known Viserys long enough to know he was on the brink of madness. That, and coupled with the obvious attraction he held for Daenerys, along with the fact that Drogo would hold off on his deal with Viserys for as long as possible, all but ensured that Viserys would have gotten himself killed sooner or later.
Edit: Not to mention Varys could have just ordered Jorah to murder Viserys if needs be. However, this all ignores the idea Viserys was supposed to survive, lead the Dothraki against Westeros, and then have Aegon defeat Viserys's forces.
> Also to make sense of the "slayer of lies" and "mummer's dragon" prophecy.
The existence of those prophesies shoes that fAegon was planned in some form by the second book.
The problem with this is that AGOT establishes that Dany is unsure of why Illyrio is even doing any of this for them, and she sees that her brother is blind to Illyrio's manipulations.
You are right in that Varys and Illyrio are indeed talking about Viserys's invasion of Westeros with the Dothraki, not Aegon's. The general consensus is that Viserys and the Dothraki were supposed to invade Westeros and soften it up, and then f'Aegon and the Golden Company could come later to "save" Westeros and be the much more attractive alternative to the crazy Viserys.
Honestly I don’t think Viserys and Dany were supposed to make it Westeros. I think Viserys was always meant to be disposed of, while Drogo was supposed to go berserk at pregnant Dany’s poisoning and invade Westeros alone.
The genius part is that I don't think it really matters much to their plan whether Viserys and Dany make it to Westeros or not, as long as the Dothraki horde ends up there causing chaos. In AGOT, Illyrio suggests that Viserys stay at his home in Pentos, but when Viserys insists on going with the Dothraki Illyrio is rather blase about it.
Now, odds are that if Viserys was still around during the Dothraki invasion and subsequent f'Aegon "rescue" of the situation, it's quite likely that they thought Viserys was going to die at that point. Even then, if Viserys suddenly gets a weak belly and bends the knee to f'Aegon to keep his life, it just makes the plan work that much better.
While I agree and know well how obvious it is that Aegon VI was far from being any sort of thought in George’s mind when he was writing AGOT and ACOK (and probably at least the vast majority of ASOS), I’ve always struggled to figure out what the “mummer’s dragon” in ACOK would have been referring to other than Aegon VI. What could George have meant back when he actually wrote “mummer’s dragon?”
But who was Varys’ dragon? At that point Varys didn’t have a dragon. Aegon VI wasn’t in George’s head yet (almost certainly) and Viserys was long dead.
Dead as disco. Why would Dany need to beware him? The line isn’t “the mummer had a dragon.” The line is “*beware* the mummer’s dragon.” The threat of the mummer’s dragon was always placed in the future.
Coming to think of it now, maybe the original idea George had changed and ended up being the end of the Dance in F&B. Larys (one letter from Varys) ends up placing a totally unknown child with blond hair on the throne as KL is torn apart by riots and chaos. Maybe that was his original idea for Varys before he came up with the Blackfyre history and Aegon VI.
I think it's very possible GRRM made up a list of general prophecies because they sounded cool to say Dany would have to face them. Then he could come up with actual things later. The mummer's dragon as a phrase sounds like pretty generic fantasy jargon or maybe even a name of a Thin Lizzy song.
A common theory is that Fire and Blood (the Dance specifically) is the original story before George changed his plans, with the plots sort of scattered among the characters (who are combinations of characters from asoiaf) sort of like what the show ended up doing (Sansa taking Jeyne Pooles plot, Lady Stoneheart related things being redistributed, etc).
That’s fascinating. Never heard it. I’m definitely gonna look for more parallels. I already was kinda keen to the whole Mysaria and Larys are clearly Littlefinger and Varys.
Idk if its a retcon or not, but didn't the Hound win like a crap ton of money at a tourney in the first book? I don't remember him doing anything with it
He gets robbed by the Brotherhood I think.
How they managed to take kilos worth of gold from The Hound is another question.
Lol, he straight up wins enough money to get a sizeable army.
You are correct. In the fight with the Beric the hound is wounded most notably when his whole arm in burned. He kills Beric but is rolling on the ground screaming for help, Arya is startled to see him like this. He's wounded and there's about 100 of them and 1 of him. The give him medical aid and send him on his way with everything except the gold. But that's why he follows them and takes Arya to ransom her...or maybe he does it to keep an eye on her....or a little of both.
What's more confusing is Anguy wins a literal fortune and a few books later he and the Brotherhood are broke and desperate for money and he claims he spent it all on whores.
>he claims he spent it all on whores
This is one of the goofiest propositions in the series. Whenever you try to convert gold dragons to USD, it comes out that he spent something in the range of millions or tens of millions of dollars for prostitutes in a matter of weeks, one of them (Alayaya) who is still actively working in the next books.
Isn’t it something like 40k gold dragons, and later we find that one gold dragon is vastly overpaying for a good horse.
The Hound could casually buy 40k horses with his single tourney win?
Who sent the Catspaw assassin.
The resolution to that mystery seems to be pretty universally agreed to be one of the weakest aspects of the books. It feels like GRRM originally had something else planned but ended up scrapping it for whatever reason. Then as he still needed to give an answer to who sent the assassin, so he just said Joffrey did it and called it a day.
Which, maybe I’m missing something, makes the least amount of sense. Why would Joffrey send an assassin to kill Bran Stark, a boy he barely met briefly in Winterfell? The two had no substantive interaction at all. If it had been Joffrey that Bran had beaten in a practice fight instead of Tommen… okay? But even still there’s no other instance of Joffrey sending assassins after people even after he becomes King. He didn’t know about Cersei and Jaime, that Bran had seen them or any reason to silence him.
Am I missing something? Joffrey is a sociopathic menace but it just makes no sense when so many others would have made sense.
I can't remember if this is show or book but I *think* Cersei either implies or states outright that he did it to impress Robert because of something he overheard him say. It sort of makes a little sense to me (enough to hand wave it, anyway) because there was definitely some set up around Joffrey wanting/needing a father figure (he was really upset about the Hound).
That explanation actually makes it worse because there's no way Joffery doesn't know how much Robert loves Ned, so why would he think Ned's son being murdered would impress Robert. GRRM just fucked up with this one.
In the conversation he overhears Robert explicitly says that it would be better to euthanize Bran (i think he's drunk, as usual?). Joffrey is like 12 years old and not exactly mature/empathetic enough to make a rational judgement here.
> I think Cersei either implies or states outright that he did it to impress Robert
Jaime and Tyrion come to this conclusion and discuss it during their final meeting together in ASOS. Cersei remains oblivious.
You’re correctly remembering the books as well. The scene with Cersei discussing Robert saying Brans death would be a mercy is when Jaime comes to the realization that Joff did it.
I do agree that Joffrey’s motivation for sending the catspaw after Bran IS pretty weak. But he does pull that move again, isn’t it Joff who sends Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion during Blackwater? So it’s at least established that this is the kind of thing that he does.
I think Manson Moore was working for Cersei and she wanted him dead because of the prophecy. Joffrey did have Roberts bastards killed though.
Edit: Oh right, I forgot that was one of the show changes. I still think Moore was from Cersei. Varys says so to Tyrion and Joffrey doesn’t seem to be thinking enough about Tyrion at that moment to take him out. Cersei has every reason to.
Does she ever think about this in any of her chapters in Feast? With how badly she wants him dead in that book it seems like the kind of thing that she would reflect on if it was her.
What evidence is there for this?
How do you marry this assertion with what we know of Mandon Moore’s character?
Moore is knows as being the strictest of the KG who always follows his orders to the letter even going so far as refusing Tyrion entrance to the Small Council in spite of him having a letter to deliver from the Hand and only backs down in the face of considerable threat to his life, which would be foolish to risk for the sake of a letter. Moore abandons the Young Lady Sansa Stark who he is protecting during the Bread Riots, when his King the person his primary allegiance is sworn to is in danger despite Joffrey already having several guards, showing he places the exact letter of his vow over both chivalry and what is morally right, also he is known to have no vices with which to use as leverage, the man lives for his vows and his white cloak.
You have a very different reading to the character than I do. None of his actions scream out to me that he honors the cloak, but they do yell out that he's a hired mercenary.
And for evidence, for starters, whenever a character attributes a conspiratorial action to a different character while lacking solid evidence or proof, that immediately jumps out as a red herring. Tyrion assumes it's cercei because she hates him, and wants him dead. He never presses it though. My assumption for these kind of instances is that LF is always the real culprit. Him being the machiavellian character of the story. Plus the fact that Cercei at no point ever even recalls sending Mandon to kill Tyrion.
The other considerable factors: Mandon is from the Vale. It is Arryn who promoted him to Kingsguard. An action that is within a pattern.
My interpretation of the character is based on what the text tells us. Here is every mention of him.
AGOT: Sansa IV
Jeyne Poole and all her things were gone when Ser Mandon Moore returned Sansa to the high tower of Maegor's Holdfast.
AGOT: Sansa V
Ser Mandon Moore went to take his place under the throne beside two of his fellows of the Kingsguard. Sansa hovered by the door, for once unguarded. The queen had given her freedom of the castle as a reward for being good, yet even so, she was escorted everywhere she went. "Honor guards for my daughter-to-be," the queen called them, but they did not make Sansa feel honored.
ACOK: Tyrion I
In the chilly white raiment of the Kingsguard, Ser Mandon Moore looked like a corpse in a shroud. "Her Grace left orders, the council in session is not to be disturbed."
"I would be only a small disturbance, ser." Tyrion slid the parchment from his sleeve. "I bear a letter from my father, Lord Tywin Lannister, the Hand of the King. There is his seal."
"Her Grace does not wish to be disturbed," Ser Mandon repeated slowly, as if Tyrion were a dullard who had not heard him the first time.
Jaime had once told him that Moore was the most dangerous of the Kingsguard—excepting himself, always—because his face gave no hint as what he might do next. Tyrion would have welcomed a hint. Bronn and Timett could likely kill the knight if it came to swords, but it would scarcely bode well if he began by slaying one of Joffrey's protectors. Yet if he let the man turn him away, where was his authority? He made himself smile. "Ser Mandon, you have not met my companions. This is Timett son of Timett, a red hand of the Burned Men. And this is Bronn. Perchance you recall Ser Vardis Egen, who was captain of Lord Arryn's household guard?"
"I know the man." Ser Mandon's eyes were pale grey, oddly flat and lifeless.
"Knew," Bronn corrected with a thin smile. Ser Mandon did not deign to show that he had heard that
"Be that as it may," Tyrion said lightly, "I truly must see my sister and present my letter, ser. If you would be so kind as to open the door for us?"
The white knight did not respond. Tyrion was almost at the point of trying to force his way past when Ser Mandon abruptly stood aside. "You may enter. They may not."
ACOK: Tyrion IX
King Joffrey followed on a tall grey palfrey, a golden crown set upon his golden curls. Sansa Stark rode a chesnut mare at his side, looking neither right nor left, her thick auburn hair flowing to her shoulders beneath a net of moonstones. Two of the Kingsguard flanked the couple, the Hound on the king's right hand and Ser Mandon Moore to the left of the Stark girl.
ACOK: Tyrion IX
. In an instant they were gone. Someone staggered in front of Joffrey's horse and shrieked as the king rode him down. Whether it had been man, woman, or child Tyrion could not have said. Joffrey was galloping at his side, whey-faced, with Ser Mandon Moore a white shadow on his left.
And suddenly the madness was behind and they were clattering across the cobbled square that fronted on the castle barbican. A line of spearmen held the gates.
ACOK: Tyrion IX
"They were traitors," Joffrey squealed from the ground. "They called me names and attacked me!"
"You set your dog on them! What did you imagine they would do, bend the knee meekly while the Hound lopped off some limbs? You spoiled witless little boy, you've killed Clegane and gods know how many more, and yet you come through unscratched. Damn you!" And he kicked him. It felt so good he might have done more, but Ser Mandon Moore pulled him off as Joffrey howled, and then Bronn was there to take him in hand. Cersei knelt over her son, while Ser Balon Swann restrained Ser Lancel. Tyrion wrenched free of Bronn's grip. "How many are still out there?" he shouted to no one and everyone.
ACOK: Tyrion IX
Tyrion pressed blunt fingers into his throbbing temples. If Sansa Stark had come to harm, Jaime was as good as dead. "Ser Mandon, you were her shield."
Ser Mandon Moore remained untroubled. "When they mobbed the Hound, I thought first of the king."
"And rightly so," Cersei put in. "Boros, Meryn, go back and find the girl."
ACOK: Sansa V
The Imp was mounted on a red stallion, armored more plainly than the king in battle gear that made him look like a little boy dressed up in his father's clothes. But there was nothing childish about the battle-axe slung below his shield. Ser Mandon Moore rode at his side, white steel icy bright. When Tyrion saw her he turned his horse her way. "Lady Sansa," he called from the saddle, "surely my sister has asked you to join the other highborn ladies in Maegor's?"
"She has, my lord, but King Joffrey sent for me to see him off. I mean to visit the sept as well, to pray."
"I'll deal with your brother after I'm done with my traitor uncle. I'll gut him with Hearteater, you'll see." He wheeled his horse about and spurred toward the gate. Ser Meryn and Ser Osmund fell in to his right and left, the gold cloaks following four abreast. The Imp and Ser Mandon Moore brought up the rear. The guards saw them off with shouts and cheers. When the last was gone, a sudden stillness settled over the yard, like the hush before a storm.
ACOK: Tyrion XIII
They galloped off down River Row, Pod and Ser Mandon Moore coming hard behind him. The shuttered houses were steeped in green shadow, but there was no traffic to get in their way; Tyrion had commanded that the street be kept clear, so the defenders could move quickly from one gate to the next.
ACOK: Tyrion XIII
"Open the gates. When they rush inside, surround them and kill them." The Hound thrust the point of his longsword into the ground and leaned upon the pommel, swaying. "I've lost half my men. Horse as well. I'm not taking more into that fire."
Ser Mandon Moore moved to Tyrion's side, immaculate in his enameled white plate. "The King's Hand commands you."
"Bugger the King's Hand." Where the Hound's face was not sticky with blood, it was pale as milk.
ACOK: Tyrion XIV
"Wedge," Tyrion commanded as his men streamed out of the sally port. They formed up in spearhead, with him at the point. Ser Mandon Moore took the place to his right, flames shimmering against the white enamel of his armor, his dead eyes shining passionlessly through his helm.
ACOK: Tyrion XIV
Tyrion turned, thinking to find Ser Mandon Moore beside him again, but this was a different white knight. Ser Balon Swann wore the same armor, but his horse trappings bore the battling black-and-white swans of his House. He's more a spotted knight than a white one, Tyrion thought inanely. Every bit of Ser Balon was spattered with gore and smudged by smoke.
ACOK: Tyrion XIV
His two white shadows were always with him; Balon Swann and Mandon Moore, beautiful in their pale plate. Surrounded by a circle of Velaryon spearmen, they fought back to back; they made battle as graceful as a dance.
ACOK: Tyrion XIV
There on the deck of the next ship, across a widening gulf of black water, stood Ser Mandon Moore, a hand extended. Yellow and green fire shone against the white of his armor, and his lobstered gauntlet was sticky with blood, but Tyrion reached for it all the same, wishing his arms were longer. It was only at the very last, as their fingers brushed across the gap, that something niggled at him . . . Ser Mandon was holding out his left hand, why . . .
Was that why he reeled backward, or did he see the sword after all? He would never know. The point slashed just beneath his eyes, and he felt its cold hard touch and then a blaze of pain. His head spun around as if he'd been slapped. The shock of the cold water was a second slap more jolting than the first. He flailed for something to grab on to, knowing that once he went down he was not like to come back up. Somehow his hand found the splintered end of a broken oar. Clutching it tight as a desperate lover, he shinnied up foot by foot. His eyes were full of water, his mouth was full of blood, and his head throbbed horribly. Gods give me strength to reach the deck . . . There was nothing else, only the oar, the water, the deck.
Finally he rolled over the side and lay breathless and exhausted, flat on his back. Balls of green and orange flame crackled overhead, leaving streaks between the stars. He had a moment to think how pretty it was before Ser Mandon blocked out the view. The knight was a white steel shadow, his eyes shining darkly behind his helm. Tyrion had no more strength than a rag doll. Ser Mandon put the point of his sword to the hollow of his throat and curled both hands around the hilt.
And suddenly he lurched to the left, staggering into the rail. Wood split, and Ser Mandon Moore vanished with a shout and a splash. An instant later, the hulls came slamming together again, so hard the deck seemed to jump. Then someone was kneeling over him. "Jaime?" he croaked, almost choking on the blood that filled his mouth. Who else would save him, if not his brother?
ACOK: Sansa VIII
It took a long time, since only three of the Brothers of the White Sword were on hand to dub them. Mandon Moore had perished in the battle, the Hound had vanished, Aerys Oakheart was in Dorne with Princess Myrcella, and Jaime Lannister was Robb's captive, so the Kingsguard had been reduced to Balon Swann, Meryn Trant, and Osmund Kettleblack.
ACOK: Tyrion XV
He remembered now. The bridge of boats, Ser Mandon Moore, a hand, a sword coming at his face. If I had not pulled back, that cut would have taken off the top of my head. Jaime had always said that Ser Mandon was the most dangerous of the Kingsguard, because his dead empty eyes gave no hint to his intentions. I should never have trusted any of them. He'd known that Ser Meryn and Ser Boros were his sister's, and Ser Osmund later, but he had let himself believe that the others were not wholly lost to honor. Cersei must have paid him to see that I never came back from the battle. Why else? I never did Ser Mandon any harm that I know of. Tyrion touched his face, plucking at the proud flesh with blunt thick fingers. Another gift from my sweet sister.
ASOS: Tyrion I
"Good," said Tyrion, "because as it happens, I still have need of you. What do you know of Ser Mandon Moore?"
Bronn laughed. "I know he's bloody well drowned."
"He had eyes like a fish and he wore a white cloak. What else do you need to know?"
"Everything," said Tyrion, "for a start." What he wanted was proof that Ser Mandon had been Cersei's, but he dare not say so aloud. In the Red Keep a man did best to hold his tongue. There were rats in the walls, and little birds who talked too much, and spiders. "Help me up," he said, struggling with the bedclothes. "It's time I paid a call on my father, and past time I let myself be seen again."
ASOS: Tyrion II
"While we are on the subject of the Kingsguard . . . I wonder, could this delightfully unexpected visit of yours happen to concern Ser Boros's fallen brother, the gallant Ser Mandon Moore?" The eunuch stroked a powdered cheek. "Your man Bronn seems most interested in him of late."
Bronn had turned up all he could on Ser Mandon, but no doubt Varys knew a deal more . . . should he choose to share it. "The man seems to have been quite friendless," Tyrion said carefully.
"Sadly," said Varys, "oh, sadly. You might find some kin if you turned over enough stones back in the Vale, but here . . . Lord Arryn brought him to King's Landing and Robert gave him his white cloak, but neither loved him much, I fear. Nor was he the sort the smallfolk cheer in tourneys, despite his undoubted prowess. Why, even his brothers of the Kingsguard never warmed to him. Ser Barristan was once heard to say that the man had no friend but his sword and no life but duty . . . but you know, I do not think Selmy meant it altogether as praise. Which is queer when you consider it, is it not? Those are the very qualities we seek in our Kingsguard, it could be said—men who live not for themselves, but for their king. By those lights, our brave Ser Mandon was the perfect white knight. And he died as a knight of the Kingsguard ought, with sword in hand, defending one of the king's own blood." The eunuch gave him a slimy smile and watched him sharply.
ASOS: Jaime VIII
My duty, now. Once he learned to write with his left hand, that is. The White Book was well behind. The deaths of Ser Mandon Moore and Ser Preston Greenfield needed to be entered, and the brief bloody Kingsguard service of Sandor Clegane as well. New pages must be started for Ser Balon Swann, Ser Osmund Kettleblack, and the Knight of Flowers. I will need to summon a septon to draw their shields.
Now, what is it in there that makes you view him as a mercenary? And as LF’s man?
I can see that you think his connection to the Vale makes him LF’s though surely you can understand why Varys’s description of him and his quotes about Barristan’s opinion of the man bely that assertion? LF controls his pawns through manipulating their weaknesses but Moore is described as having no vices, nothing matters to him outside of his duty. What would LF use to manipulate him with?
The man described lives simply to hold his Vow and serve his King. Ergo; he was doing the Kings bidding when he tried to murder Tyrion.
> Cersei and she wanted him dead because of the prophecy.
Nothing to do with the prophecy. It's because as soon as Tyrion became the hand he slowly and methodically removed Cersei's power.
It absolutely is Joffrey who sends Mandon Moore against Tyrion. Moore is set up as being a high stickler for following orders and a man without vice with which to manipulate him. He is just doing what his King has told him to do. This is another case of people desperate for there to be someone they view as more important and more cunning behind it than Joffrey.
That might just be a show only thing, though anything could happen in Winds and Dream. I do think Littlefinger was the one to manipulate Joffrey into killing Ned, though.
George has said that he intended Joffrey to be the person hiring the Catspaw from the get go, and he's admitted times where he's changed other plotlines so I have no reason to doubt him on this. I think it's just an issue where he intended one thing, but then never really got around to developing the idea and suddenly tried to return back to and wrap up the plotline at the end of ASOS because it would be impossible to resolve it this way after that book. It's just a major dropped ball on his behalf.
The motivation is that Joffrey is apparently in such desperate need of Robert's approval that he hires the guy to kill Bran because he overheard Robert say at breakfast one day that it would be a mercy to let Bran die. There's just so many problems with this idea that George messed up:
1. We never get to "see" the breakfast, so the readers aren't given a clue.
2. Why would Joffrey do something to impress his father when he knows his father couldn't find out about it?
3. How did Joffrey manage to find someone to do this on his own? It's not like he is good with lowborn people. I guess he got really lucky and the first random person he approached agreed to do it so there's not a couple dozen people wandering around saying how the prince tried to bribe them to kill the local lord's son.
4. The story about Joffrey cutting open the cat to get its kittens to show Robert was supposed to be a clue that Joffrey would do messed up things to impress Robert, but it ends up being more about "Joffrey is psycho", not that "Oh, I guess a young son wants to impress his father".
5. Resolution to the story is at the end of the book where the two people investigating the mystery and the killer himself are all dead, so who cares?
But why would Joffrey waste a valeryian steel dagger. I know he’s rich but even he knows how rare it is. Why give such a dagger to an assassin to use unless it was also payment for the hit. Even then why waste such precious metal. When gold and regular knife work just fine.
Speaking of the dagger, I got into an argument with my friend who swears the hidden writing on the dagger that we now see in HOTD was revealed in GOT. I don’t really want to rewatch the series at the moment, but can anyone confirm. I’m 99 percent sure this didn’t happen.
So, what you're trying to say is HotD is hyping up the catspaw dagger because the assassin in GoT was a time travelling Daemon who's also the night king?
I think this is to somehow make sense of the ridiculous Arya kills the Nights King moment in GOT. It makes it so the ability to defeat the Others was never about the PTWP it was about the blade, it’s the blade which is special. This explains how Arya is able to kill the Nights King and end the war for the Dawn.
I mean, that wouldn't be the only time Joffrey has been shown to not care at all about an object's rarity or value. Just look at how he destroyed one of the four remaining copies of Lives of Four Kings just because he didn't like it as a gift.
Which happened just before Tyrion realized Joffrey sent the assassin with the dagger, and got a confirmation. George was pointing pretty heavily to the fact that Joffrey is a giant ass moron.
> four remaining
Keep in mind that the maesters of the Citadel regularly copy and recopy books. This is just a massive pain in the ass because they need to perfectly mimic both the book’s original art and the original handwriting. They then have to wait for the ink to dry. One mistake means starting over. So for particularly ornate books, this process can take months.
So yeah, more books will definitely be made. However some poor maester probably died of apoplexy after hearing what Joffrey did to his work. Joffrey’s not being a dick in this scene just because the object is rare or valuable, he’s also a dick because he’s disregarding all the effort that goes into writing and preserving knowledge in a society where the printing press doesn’t exist.
Joffrey who sliced up a book worth a small fortune for shits and giggles? Yeah Joffrey doesn’t give a fig for how rare and special the dagger is, it is simply a weapon he had access to which he asks someone to kill Bran Stark with.
I really wish George made Mance hire the catspaw, it would perfectly explain why Mance would attempt something as risky and crazy as showing climbing up the wall and going to Winterfell when the entire Wildling cause relied on him, and getting the Starks to March south would be the perfect motive for Mance to do so.
Why? He has even more motive then Joffrey. And it can’t be more ridiculous but then Mance risking his life to go a simple scouting mission that any wildling could have done.
Ok I suppose he could have risked it because he liked adventure but it seems like an outstanding risk for the most important wildling to risk his life collecting basic information then anyone could collect. As for Mance being unwilling to kill children I wouldn’t say confidently that’s true we outside of not being unnecessaryly cruel we don’t have a great view of Mance’s moral compass and similarly to Stannis, Mance could view the killing of one boy to save thousands of Wildlings a worthy price to pay. Let’s also not forget in Wildling culture being a cripple means you are as good as dead anyways.
How would Mance know that there were people whom the Starks would suspect, and subsequently march south to fight as a result, at Winterfell when he would launch such an attack?
While it is not too late for a retcon, particularly since Joffrey hiring the catspaw was not directly confirmed, there would still need to be an explanation of why he would try that then.
Mance wouldn’t really need to know the details of the political situation in Westeros; he could’ve simply spotted an opportunity to create some chaos by having Bran killed with a weapon that obviously came from someone in the royal party. All he needed was to steal the dagger from wherever it was (probably in one of the royal carriages), and a bag of silver to pay the assassin (which he had).
This wasn’t a plan that Mance cooked up before he came south; he simply saw an opportunity and acted on it.
>How would Mance know that there were people whom the Starks would suspect, and subsequently march south to fight as a result
Exactly. Too much of this theory requires Mance to be omniscient. At the point of the story where the Catspaw appears, only Ned, Catelyn, Maester Luwin, Littlefinger, and Lysa know of trouble brewing between the Starks and Lannisters. Everyone else at best might be aware that Ned doesn't like Jaime or Tywin because of the sack of King's Landing, but that was 15 years ago and not something that's likely to start a war.
Felt like he set that up and told himself he'll answer it later, but when that time came he realized he screwed up and forgot about it so came up with some half-ass answer that didn't really impact on any character or story (Joffrey's sadistic so whatever, ig it makes sense he felt like killing Bran)
Aside from the logistical issues of this (the time it would take for news to reach KL and then for LF to arrange the whole hit etc.), I think it ruins a great part of LF’s character which is his ability to improvise and cause chaos out of the tiniest opportunities. Him masterminding this all from the start strains credulity IMO.
Nothing to mastermind. Have a Stark child killed to distract Eddard using a weapon that could only have come from the royal entourage. Bran however fell so an easy target was lost, but the assassin waited to fulfill his contract and failed successfully. With that change, LF just adapted when Cat presented the dagger and the events played out as he wanted.
Mance seems like the type that'd hire the assassin as well, but the question would be how he got the dagger which likely was in King's Landing. LF had a better chance with two or three levels of separation between him and the cat's paw.
Maybe, but it seems like such an arbitrary play for someone like LF. Had Bran not been injured he would’ve been at KL with Sansa and Arya wouldn’t he? Killing any of them in the King’s procession would also be highly unlikely and expose whatever chain of proxies LF established should the assassin get caught. He’d already set the stage for conflict with the letter he had Lyse send the letter implicating the Lannisters in Jon Arryn’s death, having one of the kids randomly murdered with no apparent motive if anything would seem less likely to make Ned suspect Lannister involvement vs just some crazy nut job
If it was LF then it would have to have been planned after finding out Bran was injured IMO. Otherwise it’s way too haphazard and risky for him.
The theory is that LF wanted a Stark kid dead by a weapon easily traced back to the Royal family. He planned this out when he learned King Robert was going north to make Ned his hand and planted the assassin in the king’s party. Bran was simply the easiest seeming target.
That might be your theory. Everyone who subscribes to Littlefinger as the culprit seems to have a different theory of their own.
And this theory makes no sense. Littlefinger was smart enough to know that Ned would never believe that Robert would randomly want to kill one of his kids.
I think I see where you're going. Obviously, LF couldn't hire the catspaw to mercy kill Bran. However, he could have hired the catspaw weeks earlier to kill Bran or Rickon (either before the group left, or maybe even on the king's road) which was interrupted when Bran fell splitting up the Starks. The catspaw just made a change to plan without approval, failed at it, and LF rolled with the chaos that resulted into starting the war of five kings.
The procession took months to go from King's Landing to Winterfell.
Do you think Littlefinger gave a Valyrian steel knife to a random sellsword (of low intelligence), and trusted that he would hold on to it for months, and then attack and kill a highborn? How does that make any sense? And how does that fit with Littlefinger's character at all?
Not to mention that it's much more impressive, and so in keeping with GRRM's conception of Littlefinger, for him to have come up with his big lie in the course of a single conversation with Catelyn and Ned, rather than having months to come up with the plan.
We saw that he'd secretly use intermediaries like Sir Dontos who gave the murder weapon to Sansa, who themselves likely were hired through intermediaries. Also, it's big that he had Lyssa message Cat the hidden warning about the Lannisters killing Jon Arryn.
The plan he had did not involve Bran falling and going into a coma, and Cat staying behind with Bran, Rickon, and Robb. Or with the catspaw getting killed with the dagger in hand. Likely it was meant to be a death while the royal procession was still there and the dagger found in a Lannister controlled wagon to put doubt on the Lannisters. He adapted when the actual outcome was revealed to him, even taking ownership of the dagger (likely never his).
Littlefinger was in frequent and direct conduct with Dontos. That is not analogous to entrusting a random, lowborn, uneducated lowborn with a priceless dagger months in advance of the ultimate target.
So Littlefinger ordered his catspaw: "If Bran Stark falls while climbing, steal Robert's valyrian dagger and kill him in his bed"? Do you know how ridiculous this sounds?
I think people are just very miffed that it was Joffrey.
Mostly because they want it to have been someone they view as more cunning. Usually LF.
To me there was never a great mystery to be solved, and I assumed Cersei - as she had the most to loose from Bran waking up.
When it turned out to have been Joffrey I was just a little surprised but then it made sense as it was part of building the image of him as a cruel for cruelty’s sake nasty little brat.
I haven't thought about this in forever- I might also be mixing up the tv show with the books, but it could be Littlefinger doing an elaborate double bluff? The whole "i know it looks bad, but I SWEAR I leant it to Tyrion" -
Littlefinger relying on the idea that it's too convenient for a guy with a knife basically screaming LITTLEFINGER'S KNIFE might dissuade the Starks enough, especially when he can blame those pesky Lannisters
I agree with your idea but its hard to call something so early in the story retconned....It does serve though as it gives Jamie some reason to think Tyrian did kill Joffrey as it gave him another reason to hate his nephew.
Honestly, Asshai is so out of the way I don’t think she was ever meant to go there. Quaithe only wanted her to go for her own reasons which will probably be revealed in the future. Her role in the story didn’t end in Qarth and it’s still not over yet.
I suspect that in the early days Dany was never going to turn West. Instead she was going to travel only East, going past Asshai and eventually appearing in sustet sea, on the western shore of Westeros. Going east to travel west. Leading dothraki to world's end, as Stalion who Mounts the World in prophecised. I know, that this doesn't seem likely or even possible because of world's map. But remeber, back in the day GRRM had pretty vague idea about the geography of his world. In fact, he himself has said that originally Essos was more compact and East of it was very different. So maybe originally Dany was meant to travel around te world.
Maybe that's how Mance's Asshai silk from his cloak originally ended up on the Frozen Shore.
Also, this line from ACOK seems like it could be a hint.
>“The wine is ordinary. It is said that across the jade Sea they make a golden vintage so fine that one sip makes all other wines taste like vinegar. Let us take my pleasure barge and go in search of it, you and I.”
>“The Arbor makes the best wine in the world,” Dany declared.
It does indeed. Arbor Gold.
I always found that part weird. When I first read it I was sure it was foreshadowing her going to Asshai but the more the story progressed, the less sense it made.
By this point Dany spending way more time than necessary on Essos is already an issue, I don't see how George could justify having her fuck off even further from Westeros to what's essentially a completely new and unexplored part of the world. He would either have to delay her coming to Westeros even more or skim on exploring and developing one of the most mysterious and interesting places in the entire setting.
I believe Edrick Dayne was meant to descent into darkness along with the Brotherhood and become some sort of “sword of the night” figure, but once the five year time jump was abandoned and he remained a boy, GRRM invented Darkstar.
The theory of Jaime, Sandor, and Brienne being the mercenary captains in Essos after the timejump is so interesting, along with your Edric theory. It would be cool to see a story set in an alternate universe where the timejump happened
I think the rate of dragon growth was a retcon. I don't really care if it is a retcon, I'm not uptight about it, but just for fun discussion:
ADWD is the first time Drogon is ridden by Daenerys, escaping from the fighting pits of Meereen. Drogon is 1 year old.
A World of Ice and Fire (2014) and Fire & Blood (2018) introduce several new dragons at a variety of ages. They were nowhere near ridable at 1 year old as I recall.
Now, I've seen a number of theories that GRRM could use as an explanation like it's because of
- Drogon's being allowed to roam free rather than live inside the dragon pit
- Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal being hatched via the blood magic ritual
- Any attempted magic the possessors of the eggs may have done to try and get them to hatch before they came into Daenerys' possession
- Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal's eggs being much older than people are guessing (I think the leading theory is they're the ones Elissa Farman stole?)
But, Drogon gonna be huge as he gets older. (if he gets older)
I hate calling these things retcons...as if a story can't grow as its being told. But you are correct. GRRM was originally planning for a 5 year time jump, in which the Dragons would grow, I'm guessing that Dany would learn to rule Slaver's Bay in that time - and other things I'm forgetting at the moment. You can read about how the books evolved on the wikipedia page and draw a few conclusions from that - the dragons are explicitly mentioned though.
I can’t think of full retcons but I believe that Aegon VI/ Faegon while not shoehorned was still not certified to be alive( there are some slight hints for him to be, what I say is that Grrm was not yet decided)
Another example while not to the point of a narrative plot line is the role of the wardens and what means to be a kingsguard: Ned makes a big fuss about Jaime controlling both East and West but we now know that being a warden in itself means little and that Jaime couldn’t inherit the wardenship of the west to begin with.
And then there’s a lot of very minor stuff but I guess that misses the point of the question hahaha you know the public perception of Littlefinger or how fleshed out certain minor houses would end up being
Agreed, pretty sure GRRM didn't plan for Aegon/Griff, certainly anywhere near to its current form until ASoS was already out. There would by much more foreshadowing, the little foreshadowing we read into could be a million other things
I'm not sure, Varys and Ned have a conversation in the Black Cells where what happens to Rhaegar's children is brought up, and one thing that jumps out is that Varys only talks about Rhaenys in this scene. He makes no mention of Aegon.
And wouldn't this be a perfect time for Varys to actually say something that can be interpreted either way about Aegon? Like "The Hound is dead, Sandor Clegane is at peace." That's GRRM's style of foreshadowing, it's everywhere. But the only "foreshadowing" for this is, as you say, lack of explicit evidence to the contrary. That's weak sauce.
Varys is making a point about the brutality of the game of thrones and implying what could happen to Ned's own daughters by bringing up Rhaegar's, he isn't giving a comprehensive rundown of the fates of the Targaryens.
I disagree. Right before storm came out, someone asked George point blank if Rhaegars children were dead and George said point blank that there was “absolutely no doubt” that Rhaenys was dead but never even said anything about Aegon.
I think the thing with Jamie could be explained by Robert owing so much debt to Tywin, or Robert being more loose with the rules on the Kings guard, as we do see him considering making Jamie the Hand
Whoever hired the catspaw. I think that was originally meant to be part of a grander scheme of either Littlefinger or Varys, but the story them became bloated with those so he made it part of Joffrey's development instead.
The problem with making it Cersei is the problem with basically every suspect (including Joffrey). Why a valyrian steel dagger? Why not just a normal dagger? The only person it makes sense for is Little Finger, but he unfortunately doesn't have the opportunity. Mance makes perfect sense, but how did he get the dagger?
Mance doesn't care about Bran specifically-- he would more want to destabilize the North by having Bran killed while the catspaw held an incriminating dagger.
Because Valyrian Steel is too recognizable. The only type of people that would use a Valyrian Steel dagger are people that either
A. Don't understand how incriminating it is
Or
B. WANT the dagger to be found and for suspicions to be stoked.
Now we know LF wants the latter because he later lies to Catelyn about the dagger belonging to Tyrion. But LF was in King's Landing, the time frame doesn't match up. Which really just leaves Mance.
George already said that that plot would be revealed/wrapped up in AFFC. Unless he changes his mind and decides to revisit it, I think thats all we are getting.
Almost as if…he intended it as Joffrey all along and it’s a deliberate part of him building his character as being a nasty cruel and empathy free shitbag.
Darkstar is the most obvious retcon, bar maybe the catspaw mystery.
GRRM had clear intentions of making Edric Dayne the next great Dayne, having spent years as a “knight of the people” with the brotherhood, but once he ditched the five year skip realised he was way too young so he spawned in darkstar out of nowhere lmao
Sansa marrying Tyrion, Ramsay taking Winterfell, and Ramsay marrying Arya (via Jeyne Poole cause reasons) all just stem from the 1 original plot point that Tyrion would wed Arya and burn down winterfell, becoming rivals with Jon. Which is alluded to in AGOT where the direwolves go crazy barking at Tyrion.
She may still go to Asshai. Qaithe's prophecies are becoming ever more dominant in Dany's storyline. Drogon refuses to take her West, in a very literal sense, but is compliant when she goes the other way.
Going to Asshai kills a lot of its mistery, but it does give us the readers a chance to learn more about dragons, and maybe even glimpse at the true past of Melisandre, so it could have its uses, narratively speaking.
Jon and Arya being a thing.There are inumerous hints in the books their bond is too strong and than there is the original outline....
I think Martin originally planned to Arya be Jon's Nissa Nissa but he scrapped his plan (Arya is his wife's favorite character and he promised her she will Live to the end of ASOIAF ).
>Jon and Arya being a thing.There are inumerous hints in the books their bond is too strong and than there is the original outline....
Seriously? The very same book where Jon favorite greeting for Arya is "little sister"? There is nothing unusual about their interaction and would be extremely creepy otherwise considering Arya is nine.
>I think Martin originally planned to Arya be Jon's Nissa Nissa but he scrapped his plan (Arya is his wife's favorite character and he promised her she will Live to the end of ASOIAF ).
He couldn't have planned that since was Drogo was Daenerys' Nissa Nissa in the very first book.
The valonqar prophesy being the main reason Cersei hates Tyrion so much, and also as the primary cause of her madness. With regards to the former, Cersei had plenty of reason to hate Tyrion as it was, since she (and Tywin) blame him for Joanna's death. As for the latter, I get that it was because George didn't feel he could do the five-year gap, but Cersei didn't need a prophesy making her so paranoid that Margaery was the "Younger More Beautiful Queen" for her to do everything she could to keep herself in power, which would've included removing her rival (Margaery) by any means necessary.
Doran's whole plan for a Targaryen restoration. In fact, it does so little in the story that it seems to me to be a retcone introduced late.
Because apparently a contract with viserys is made since daenerys early childhood as signed by ser willem. The problem is that after he dies, he does nothing to make the contract last, neither informed Viserys, nor financially support the targaryens, nor just send them a guy to protect them and make sure they don't do things that would screw up the plan like die, marry someone else, or give up westeros, or just tell them "you still have friends". daenerys had to get her fingers out of her ass and get power and an army on her own before he considered doing anything. Besides, why did you wait so long? Viserys was over 20 when he died, so it's not a question of age. And if it's about waiting for an opportunity to trigger a conflict without too much risk, one he never did anything to trigger this opportunity, so he could have waited a long time. Two, this opportunity is to present with the war of the 5 kings, and he did nothing. They only begin to act long after...
I think it would have been much better if Doran knew about fAegon, thinking it was really him and supporting him over the years. That would have at least explained why he gave no shit about Dany and Viserys.
The body in the barrel mentioned when Tyrion and Jorah get passage on a ship from the Widow of the Wharf. Likely a holdover or editing mistake from when GRRM would have Marwyn the Mage on the Cinnamon Wind with Maester Aemond being the body in the barrel.
Valyrian Steel originally wasn't meant to be anything that special, but was retconned to be very rare and expensive.
The value of a gold coin. Probably much cheaper in book 1 than raised to where you could buy a horse with one. Maybe less a retcon and more GRRM not caring to much about the math of things (architecture, land mass, and economics).
>Valyrian Steel originally wasn't meant to be anything that special, but was retconned to be very rare and expensive.
Yeah the whole Catspaw plotline would be more believable if it was just regular dagger instead of a super rare one that was used on a helpless child after some important people leave the place. Still has some other problems as pointed out by others in this thread.
Sansa having a Joff's baby.
Dany killing Drogo for killing her brother. The only storyline I would have liked better in the original outline instead of that cringy lovestory. Dany should have hatched the eggs while crawling into the burning pyre of her brother. Makes more sense that dragonblood would hatch the eggs.
Joff fighting Robb in battle.
Tyrion x Arya x Jon love triangle. Jon x Arya was for sure set up in book one and even a little in book 2 but I think George changed his mind after book 3 since he abandoned the time jump and Arya is far too young to be with Jon.
Jaime going super evil Richard III.
Dany invading in book 2. I think that wa the original plan or at least book 3.
FAegon did note exist in book 1.
The whole Warden stuff.
Tyrion burning down Winterfell.
Dany going to Asshai and learing dragon powers. I think that was the orginal plan.
Bran hating Jon.
Cat going to the Wall and dying.
I think Ned Dayne was supposed to get Dawn.
Im GRRMs original proposal for the series, a much less likable Jaime Lannister schemes his way to the throne. There’s a bunch of language in AGOT associating Jaime with kingliness which suggests to me that GRRM was probably still considering that possibility throughout the first book.
One of the weirder moments is how much emphasis Ned put on Jaime sitting the iron throne. Yet when Ned told Robert he didn’t care and just said Jaime was warming the seat for him.
Is it weird? Ned is the first person (essentially) to find that he killed Aerys...Ned's harsh judgement and assumptions of Jamie's intentions follow him for the rest of his life as he is known as the Kingslayer. If someone else had come through that door he might shared why he killed his king - he didn't even bother explaining to Stark because he knew his mind was made up the second he saw him - thus the Kingslayer as we know him was created at that moment.
It’s just strange how he expects Robert to agree with him but Robert doesn’t care.
Ned is all about honor and holding to sacred vows. As expressed by his staunch adherence to his religion and his convictions. In his mind a man does not do an action as Jaime had done, sit atop the iron throne, unless that man had actual intentions of doing so. Plus the fact that Jaime had just slain the king despite being sworn to the kings protection, and the iron throne is like 15 feet tall and takes some effort climbing up. Robert doesn't generally seem to give a shit about any sort of actions or vows. Ned repeatedly expects more out of him, and Robert's keeps falling short.
Probably, but there’s a thematic element here as well. Jon, perhaps because of his age, displays some innocent naivete of what it means to be king. Many of the Reachermen and Stormlanders fall for the same trick with Renly, and Aegon is probably gonna catch his share of freebies with it too. But yeah, considering the Warden of East plot is just dropped, George probably changed his mind too.
I think fAegon's introduction in ACOK partly arose out of GRRM trying to replace Jaime as "the guy in charge when Daenerys invades." Now that I think about it, King Jaime dying in a Daenerys induced wildfire explosion would have been pretty ironic.
Damn
fAegon was introduced in ACOK?
The mummer's dragon was first mentioned in ACOK during Dany's visions in The House of the Undying
If you want to get tinfoily, there’s a dragon and a griffin amidst the stolen gods and heroes in Vaes Dothrak in GoT.
There are other hints that don’t directly relate to The Blackfyres as well, such as Varys not mentioning him to Ned in the black cells, or the repeated mentions of him being left unrecognizable in the books.
ahhh yeah of course! Thank you
damn that's great
I remember the discussion about making Jaime Warden of the East in the first book seeming kind of weird to me on a reread.
Including the "careful, Jamie is also the heir and next Warden of the West". This was obviously before being a member of the kingsguard was equal to not being in line to inherit anything.
yea I think grrm was a little confused here. the first book also has the firing of Barristan, during which he says something along the lines of "I gave up my claim on my ancestral seat, my fiance married my cousin, I didn't need lands or sons - I promised I would live my life for the realm." so grrm sorta has it both ways in GoT. maybe he was considering that warden titles do pass to the first son regardless of other vows, but he makes no mention of a similar thing happening with the Starks on the Wall. I feel like he mostly dropped the whole warden thing anyway, but maybe it will be important later.
I always felt that this was an acknowledgment that everyone knew Tywin had no intention of Tyrion being his heir and always planned to somehow inveigle a way for Jaime to be released from his vows. I mean once Joffrey is King Tywin is the Kings Grandsire and can simply ask his Grandson to set a new precedent.
I do agree, and firing Barristan was probably a part of that - after Bobby dies. before the kings death Tywin can make any plans he wants, but he's 20 years older than the king, he shouldn't just expect that he'll outlive Bobby to be able to make Jaime his heir again (even plots to kill him aren't assured, and I don't think Tywin is that impulsive.) The conversations about Jaime being double warden happen while Bobby is alive so I'm not sure.
Hmm, Robert is obese, an alcoholic, whores around in an era without STD protection, and regularly partakes in dangerous hobbies like boar hunting an melees. I kinda think Tywin felt it was perfectly possible he would outlive him!
Why is it weird?
Because Wardens never come up again. They show up pretty much nowhere else and don't actually seem to do anything. Can the Warden of the West command the Greyjoys? East on Baratheons? Can the Tyrells as the Warden of the South command Dorne? It makes no sense with what we are given for their organization. It is telling because it disappears after the first book other than hyping Tywin up as Warden of the West. It doesn't really play in Fire and Blood or the rest of Westeros' history
Yeah all that Warden stuff is useless. Also, how can a Kingsguard be a Warden...?
Warden is a military position. The military commander of the entire region
I’ve always assumed Wardens were basically military generals in times the Iron Throne ever had to go to war against a foreign enemy. Say a united Seven Kingdoms faces an Other invasion, the Warden of the West would command the united hosts of the Greyjoys and Lannisters, the Warden of the North would command the united hosts of the Starks and Tullys etc. Basically the equivalent of a four star general in real life. The Warden would be the most competent commander (not necessarily a lord of a Great House even) and be hand picked by the King to avoid clashing between the lords of Great Houses over who leads a combined army. Since from AGOT, the realm dissolves into civil war, the concept becomes irrelevant.
Except they had never experienced a real external invasion. Their conquest of Dorne was led directly by the King. The War of Ninepenny Kings was led by the Crown Prince. And no way would any of the Great Houses agree to obey another lord. They would coordinate but none would submit themselves to the authority of another.
> Except they had never experienced a real external invasion. Just because you haven’t experienced an external invasion doesn’t mean you don’t prepare for it. > And no way would any of the Great Houses agree to obey another lord. They would coordinate That’s what I mean. Obviously, Stark bannermen will remain loyal to their lord Stark but the man in charge of coordinating the movements, tactics and targets of a combined host would be the Warden. Otherwise you’d have infighting if say Stark and Tully had bad blood or were rivals which is *not* what you want when you’re fighting an external war.
That is why you send someone from the Crown to do it.
But what do you do if the King is not a martial figure like Daeron I? Or has no sons able to command? Also, there are Seven Kingdoms which means several armies to raise and coordinate, splitting it into four armies led by four of the greatest commanders in Westeros is much more sensible.
They aren't getting invaded from 4 directions at once. The King has some sort of martial figure he can send. He has the kingsguard, the Hand, various other lords, etc. He would have some central authority figure having final say, even if advised by others. Particularly because managing armies is one of the central jobs of a lord. The King would have enough training to be at a war council and listen to his advisors.
Yeah but having Tywin be the Warden of the West and Jaime the East still might be a little worrying for Ned. And it makes sense that a lot of people talk about it because it’s a pretty major title for somebody. Also it’s not an organization or even an inheritance, it’s simply a title. If war breaks out, then Jaime can raise an army in the Vale. Also there is no disputing that a Kingsguard can take up this position
Yeah one thing I love AGOT for is how experimental it feels in certain plot points, I don’t know if George had even abandoned the idea of a trilogy yet
The first book having a mystery for the main character to solve that we know the answer to (Jaime being the father of Roberts children) and having a mystery for the reader to solve that the main character knows the answer to but we don't (jon snows true parents) is incredibly interesting and probably what makes it such a fun read despite the endless food descriptions and bazillion names to remember.
> endless food descriptions That part never changed. > bazillion names to remember That part arguably got worse as time went on, especially with all the goddamn Mereenese names.
Zonzaq mo fonzaq, who is famous for his Hawk wing hairdo.
harzoo
> That part arguably got worse as time went on, especially with all the goddamn Mereenese names. Pft, how hard could it be, they're all called Harzoo
What language?
The Blackfyres are the obvious one, though they’re not so much a “retcon” as a rather late addition to the in-universe history. Which is fine since few authors flesh out 100% of their world’s backstory right at the start, but the Blackfyres stick out given just how incredibly important they are to Westerosi history. I remember someone once theorized that based on the setup from AGoT and ACoK, the mummer’s dragon in Martin’s early ideas for the series would have most likely been related to the conflict between Aegon IV and Aemon the Dragonknight. And it’s easy to see how Martin took the Aegon-Aemon template and used it to write a more substantive conflict with Daeron-Daemon.
It's a retcon. If you pay attention to the Varys Illyrio conversation that Arya overhears in the tunnels under the red keep, they are clearly talking about Viserys's invasion. But GRRM wanted Dany to be alone in her invasion so he retconned it to be a new character. Also to make sense of the "slayer of lies" and "mummer's dragon" prophecy.
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Illyrio knew that Viserys insisted on joining the Dothraki to Vaes Dothrak, and both him and Varys had known Viserys long enough to know he was on the brink of madness. That, and coupled with the obvious attraction he held for Daenerys, along with the fact that Drogo would hold off on his deal with Viserys for as long as possible, all but ensured that Viserys would have gotten himself killed sooner or later. Edit: Not to mention Varys could have just ordered Jorah to murder Viserys if needs be. However, this all ignores the idea Viserys was supposed to survive, lead the Dothraki against Westeros, and then have Aegon defeat Viserys's forces.
> Also to make sense of the "slayer of lies" and "mummer's dragon" prophecy. The existence of those prophesies shoes that fAegon was planned in some form by the second book.
The problem with this is that AGOT establishes that Dany is unsure of why Illyrio is even doing any of this for them, and she sees that her brother is blind to Illyrio's manipulations. You are right in that Varys and Illyrio are indeed talking about Viserys's invasion of Westeros with the Dothraki, not Aegon's. The general consensus is that Viserys and the Dothraki were supposed to invade Westeros and soften it up, and then f'Aegon and the Golden Company could come later to "save" Westeros and be the much more attractive alternative to the crazy Viserys.
Honestly I don’t think Viserys and Dany were supposed to make it Westeros. I think Viserys was always meant to be disposed of, while Drogo was supposed to go berserk at pregnant Dany’s poisoning and invade Westeros alone.
The genius part is that I don't think it really matters much to their plan whether Viserys and Dany make it to Westeros or not, as long as the Dothraki horde ends up there causing chaos. In AGOT, Illyrio suggests that Viserys stay at his home in Pentos, but when Viserys insists on going with the Dothraki Illyrio is rather blase about it. Now, odds are that if Viserys was still around during the Dothraki invasion and subsequent f'Aegon "rescue" of the situation, it's quite likely that they thought Viserys was going to die at that point. Even then, if Viserys suddenly gets a weak belly and bends the knee to f'Aegon to keep his life, it just makes the plan work that much better.
And marry Daenerys as well This “marry Daenerys” plan only got more appealing to Varys and illyrio when she hatched 3 dragons
Bro Viserys literally dies in the same book this conversation takes place in.
While I agree and know well how obvious it is that Aegon VI was far from being any sort of thought in George’s mind when he was writing AGOT and ACOK (and probably at least the vast majority of ASOS), I’ve always struggled to figure out what the “mummer’s dragon” in ACOK would have been referring to other than Aegon VI. What could George have meant back when he actually wrote “mummer’s dragon?”
Simply Varys's dragon as in Varys was a mummer.
But who was Varys’ dragon? At that point Varys didn’t have a dragon. Aegon VI wasn’t in George’s head yet (almost certainly) and Viserys was long dead.
Viserys
Dead as disco. Why would Dany need to beware him? The line isn’t “the mummer had a dragon.” The line is “*beware* the mummer’s dragon.” The threat of the mummer’s dragon was always placed in the future. Coming to think of it now, maybe the original idea George had changed and ended up being the end of the Dance in F&B. Larys (one letter from Varys) ends up placing a totally unknown child with blond hair on the throne as KL is torn apart by riots and chaos. Maybe that was his original idea for Varys before he came up with the Blackfyre history and Aegon VI.
I think it's very possible GRRM made up a list of general prophecies because they sounded cool to say Dany would have to face them. Then he could come up with actual things later. The mummer's dragon as a phrase sounds like pretty generic fantasy jargon or maybe even a name of a Thin Lizzy song.
A common theory is that Fire and Blood (the Dance specifically) is the original story before George changed his plans, with the plots sort of scattered among the characters (who are combinations of characters from asoiaf) sort of like what the show ended up doing (Sansa taking Jeyne Pooles plot, Lady Stoneheart related things being redistributed, etc).
That’s fascinating. Never heard it. I’m definitely gonna look for more parallels. I already was kinda keen to the whole Mysaria and Larys are clearly Littlefinger and Varys.
Do you have a link to read more?
Viserys was long dead by that point.
I think he meant for Aegon to be a brightflame.
Idk if its a retcon or not, but didn't the Hound win like a crap ton of money at a tourney in the first book? I don't remember him doing anything with it
He gets robbed by the Brotherhood I think. How they managed to take kilos worth of gold from The Hound is another question. Lol, he straight up wins enough money to get a sizeable army.
You are correct. In the fight with the Beric the hound is wounded most notably when his whole arm in burned. He kills Beric but is rolling on the ground screaming for help, Arya is startled to see him like this. He's wounded and there's about 100 of them and 1 of him. The give him medical aid and send him on his way with everything except the gold. But that's why he follows them and takes Arya to ransom her...or maybe he does it to keep an eye on her....or a little of both.
What's more confusing is Anguy wins a literal fortune and a few books later he and the Brotherhood are broke and desperate for money and he claims he spent it all on whores.
>he claims he spent it all on whores This is one of the goofiest propositions in the series. Whenever you try to convert gold dragons to USD, it comes out that he spent something in the range of millions or tens of millions of dollars for prostitutes in a matter of weeks, one of them (Alayaya) who is still actively working in the next books.
Isn’t it something like 40k gold dragons, and later we find that one gold dragon is vastly overpaying for a good horse. The Hound could casually buy 40k horses with his single tourney win?
Who sent the Catspaw assassin. The resolution to that mystery seems to be pretty universally agreed to be one of the weakest aspects of the books. It feels like GRRM originally had something else planned but ended up scrapping it for whatever reason. Then as he still needed to give an answer to who sent the assassin, so he just said Joffrey did it and called it a day.
Which, maybe I’m missing something, makes the least amount of sense. Why would Joffrey send an assassin to kill Bran Stark, a boy he barely met briefly in Winterfell? The two had no substantive interaction at all. If it had been Joffrey that Bran had beaten in a practice fight instead of Tommen… okay? But even still there’s no other instance of Joffrey sending assassins after people even after he becomes King. He didn’t know about Cersei and Jaime, that Bran had seen them or any reason to silence him. Am I missing something? Joffrey is a sociopathic menace but it just makes no sense when so many others would have made sense.
I can't remember if this is show or book but I *think* Cersei either implies or states outright that he did it to impress Robert because of something he overheard him say. It sort of makes a little sense to me (enough to hand wave it, anyway) because there was definitely some set up around Joffrey wanting/needing a father figure (he was really upset about the Hound).
That's in the books. In the show I don't think Cersei ever talks about it.
That explanation actually makes it worse because there's no way Joffery doesn't know how much Robert loves Ned, so why would he think Ned's son being murdered would impress Robert. GRRM just fucked up with this one.
Because joffreys only character trait besides cruelty is that he's an idiot.
In the conversation he overhears Robert explicitly says that it would be better to euthanize Bran (i think he's drunk, as usual?). Joffrey is like 12 years old and not exactly mature/empathetic enough to make a rational judgement here.
Oh that makes sense
> I think Cersei either implies or states outright that he did it to impress Robert Jaime and Tyrion come to this conclusion and discuss it during their final meeting together in ASOS. Cersei remains oblivious.
Sometimes I wonder what weird alternate universe I am actually remembering! Thank you.
You’re correctly remembering the books as well. The scene with Cersei discussing Robert saying Brans death would be a mercy is when Jaime comes to the realization that Joff did it.
I do agree that Joffrey’s motivation for sending the catspaw after Bran IS pretty weak. But he does pull that move again, isn’t it Joff who sends Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion during Blackwater? So it’s at least established that this is the kind of thing that he does.
I think Manson Moore was working for Cersei and she wanted him dead because of the prophecy. Joffrey did have Roberts bastards killed though. Edit: Oh right, I forgot that was one of the show changes. I still think Moore was from Cersei. Varys says so to Tyrion and Joffrey doesn’t seem to be thinking enough about Tyrion at that moment to take him out. Cersei has every reason to.
Does she ever think about this in any of her chapters in Feast? With how badly she wants him dead in that book it seems like the kind of thing that she would reflect on if it was her.
"Joffrey did have Roberts bastards killed though." Only in the show. In the books it was Cersei.
Joffrey had the bastards killed in the show, but Cersei had the bastards killed in the books.
Moore works for LF.
What evidence is there for this? How do you marry this assertion with what we know of Mandon Moore’s character? Moore is knows as being the strictest of the KG who always follows his orders to the letter even going so far as refusing Tyrion entrance to the Small Council in spite of him having a letter to deliver from the Hand and only backs down in the face of considerable threat to his life, which would be foolish to risk for the sake of a letter. Moore abandons the Young Lady Sansa Stark who he is protecting during the Bread Riots, when his King the person his primary allegiance is sworn to is in danger despite Joffrey already having several guards, showing he places the exact letter of his vow over both chivalry and what is morally right, also he is known to have no vices with which to use as leverage, the man lives for his vows and his white cloak.
You have a very different reading to the character than I do. None of his actions scream out to me that he honors the cloak, but they do yell out that he's a hired mercenary. And for evidence, for starters, whenever a character attributes a conspiratorial action to a different character while lacking solid evidence or proof, that immediately jumps out as a red herring. Tyrion assumes it's cercei because she hates him, and wants him dead. He never presses it though. My assumption for these kind of instances is that LF is always the real culprit. Him being the machiavellian character of the story. Plus the fact that Cercei at no point ever even recalls sending Mandon to kill Tyrion. The other considerable factors: Mandon is from the Vale. It is Arryn who promoted him to Kingsguard. An action that is within a pattern.
My interpretation of the character is based on what the text tells us. Here is every mention of him. AGOT: Sansa IV Jeyne Poole and all her things were gone when Ser Mandon Moore returned Sansa to the high tower of Maegor's Holdfast. AGOT: Sansa V Ser Mandon Moore went to take his place under the throne beside two of his fellows of the Kingsguard. Sansa hovered by the door, for once unguarded. The queen had given her freedom of the castle as a reward for being good, yet even so, she was escorted everywhere she went. "Honor guards for my daughter-to-be," the queen called them, but they did not make Sansa feel honored. ACOK: Tyrion I In the chilly white raiment of the Kingsguard, Ser Mandon Moore looked like a corpse in a shroud. "Her Grace left orders, the council in session is not to be disturbed." "I would be only a small disturbance, ser." Tyrion slid the parchment from his sleeve. "I bear a letter from my father, Lord Tywin Lannister, the Hand of the King. There is his seal." "Her Grace does not wish to be disturbed," Ser Mandon repeated slowly, as if Tyrion were a dullard who had not heard him the first time. Jaime had once told him that Moore was the most dangerous of the Kingsguard—excepting himself, always—because his face gave no hint as what he might do next. Tyrion would have welcomed a hint. Bronn and Timett could likely kill the knight if it came to swords, but it would scarcely bode well if he began by slaying one of Joffrey's protectors. Yet if he let the man turn him away, where was his authority? He made himself smile. "Ser Mandon, you have not met my companions. This is Timett son of Timett, a red hand of the Burned Men. And this is Bronn. Perchance you recall Ser Vardis Egen, who was captain of Lord Arryn's household guard?" "I know the man." Ser Mandon's eyes were pale grey, oddly flat and lifeless. "Knew," Bronn corrected with a thin smile. Ser Mandon did not deign to show that he had heard that "Be that as it may," Tyrion said lightly, "I truly must see my sister and present my letter, ser. If you would be so kind as to open the door for us?" The white knight did not respond. Tyrion was almost at the point of trying to force his way past when Ser Mandon abruptly stood aside. "You may enter. They may not." ACOK: Tyrion IX King Joffrey followed on a tall grey palfrey, a golden crown set upon his golden curls. Sansa Stark rode a chesnut mare at his side, looking neither right nor left, her thick auburn hair flowing to her shoulders beneath a net of moonstones. Two of the Kingsguard flanked the couple, the Hound on the king's right hand and Ser Mandon Moore to the left of the Stark girl. ACOK: Tyrion IX . In an instant they were gone. Someone staggered in front of Joffrey's horse and shrieked as the king rode him down. Whether it had been man, woman, or child Tyrion could not have said. Joffrey was galloping at his side, whey-faced, with Ser Mandon Moore a white shadow on his left. And suddenly the madness was behind and they were clattering across the cobbled square that fronted on the castle barbican. A line of spearmen held the gates. ACOK: Tyrion IX "They were traitors," Joffrey squealed from the ground. "They called me names and attacked me!" "You set your dog on them! What did you imagine they would do, bend the knee meekly while the Hound lopped off some limbs? You spoiled witless little boy, you've killed Clegane and gods know how many more, and yet you come through unscratched. Damn you!" And he kicked him. It felt so good he might have done more, but Ser Mandon Moore pulled him off as Joffrey howled, and then Bronn was there to take him in hand. Cersei knelt over her son, while Ser Balon Swann restrained Ser Lancel. Tyrion wrenched free of Bronn's grip. "How many are still out there?" he shouted to no one and everyone. ACOK: Tyrion IX Tyrion pressed blunt fingers into his throbbing temples. If Sansa Stark had come to harm, Jaime was as good as dead. "Ser Mandon, you were her shield." Ser Mandon Moore remained untroubled. "When they mobbed the Hound, I thought first of the king." "And rightly so," Cersei put in. "Boros, Meryn, go back and find the girl." ACOK: Sansa V The Imp was mounted on a red stallion, armored more plainly than the king in battle gear that made him look like a little boy dressed up in his father's clothes. But there was nothing childish about the battle-axe slung below his shield. Ser Mandon Moore rode at his side, white steel icy bright. When Tyrion saw her he turned his horse her way. "Lady Sansa," he called from the saddle, "surely my sister has asked you to join the other highborn ladies in Maegor's?" "She has, my lord, but King Joffrey sent for me to see him off. I mean to visit the sept as well, to pray." "I'll deal with your brother after I'm done with my traitor uncle. I'll gut him with Hearteater, you'll see." He wheeled his horse about and spurred toward the gate. Ser Meryn and Ser Osmund fell in to his right and left, the gold cloaks following four abreast. The Imp and Ser Mandon Moore brought up the rear. The guards saw them off with shouts and cheers. When the last was gone, a sudden stillness settled over the yard, like the hush before a storm.
ACOK: Tyrion XIII They galloped off down River Row, Pod and Ser Mandon Moore coming hard behind him. The shuttered houses were steeped in green shadow, but there was no traffic to get in their way; Tyrion had commanded that the street be kept clear, so the defenders could move quickly from one gate to the next. ACOK: Tyrion XIII "Open the gates. When they rush inside, surround them and kill them." The Hound thrust the point of his longsword into the ground and leaned upon the pommel, swaying. "I've lost half my men. Horse as well. I'm not taking more into that fire." Ser Mandon Moore moved to Tyrion's side, immaculate in his enameled white plate. "The King's Hand commands you." "Bugger the King's Hand." Where the Hound's face was not sticky with blood, it was pale as milk. ACOK: Tyrion XIV "Wedge," Tyrion commanded as his men streamed out of the sally port. They formed up in spearhead, with him at the point. Ser Mandon Moore took the place to his right, flames shimmering against the white enamel of his armor, his dead eyes shining passionlessly through his helm. ACOK: Tyrion XIV Tyrion turned, thinking to find Ser Mandon Moore beside him again, but this was a different white knight. Ser Balon Swann wore the same armor, but his horse trappings bore the battling black-and-white swans of his House. He's more a spotted knight than a white one, Tyrion thought inanely. Every bit of Ser Balon was spattered with gore and smudged by smoke. ACOK: Tyrion XIV His two white shadows were always with him; Balon Swann and Mandon Moore, beautiful in their pale plate. Surrounded by a circle of Velaryon spearmen, they fought back to back; they made battle as graceful as a dance. ACOK: Tyrion XIV There on the deck of the next ship, across a widening gulf of black water, stood Ser Mandon Moore, a hand extended. Yellow and green fire shone against the white of his armor, and his lobstered gauntlet was sticky with blood, but Tyrion reached for it all the same, wishing his arms were longer. It was only at the very last, as their fingers brushed across the gap, that something niggled at him . . . Ser Mandon was holding out his left hand, why . . . Was that why he reeled backward, or did he see the sword after all? He would never know. The point slashed just beneath his eyes, and he felt its cold hard touch and then a blaze of pain. His head spun around as if he'd been slapped. The shock of the cold water was a second slap more jolting than the first. He flailed for something to grab on to, knowing that once he went down he was not like to come back up. Somehow his hand found the splintered end of a broken oar. Clutching it tight as a desperate lover, he shinnied up foot by foot. His eyes were full of water, his mouth was full of blood, and his head throbbed horribly. Gods give me strength to reach the deck . . . There was nothing else, only the oar, the water, the deck. Finally he rolled over the side and lay breathless and exhausted, flat on his back. Balls of green and orange flame crackled overhead, leaving streaks between the stars. He had a moment to think how pretty it was before Ser Mandon blocked out the view. The knight was a white steel shadow, his eyes shining darkly behind his helm. Tyrion had no more strength than a rag doll. Ser Mandon put the point of his sword to the hollow of his throat and curled both hands around the hilt. And suddenly he lurched to the left, staggering into the rail. Wood split, and Ser Mandon Moore vanished with a shout and a splash. An instant later, the hulls came slamming together again, so hard the deck seemed to jump. Then someone was kneeling over him. "Jaime?" he croaked, almost choking on the blood that filled his mouth. Who else would save him, if not his brother? ACOK: Sansa VIII It took a long time, since only three of the Brothers of the White Sword were on hand to dub them. Mandon Moore had perished in the battle, the Hound had vanished, Aerys Oakheart was in Dorne with Princess Myrcella, and Jaime Lannister was Robb's captive, so the Kingsguard had been reduced to Balon Swann, Meryn Trant, and Osmund Kettleblack. ACOK: Tyrion XV He remembered now. The bridge of boats, Ser Mandon Moore, a hand, a sword coming at his face. If I had not pulled back, that cut would have taken off the top of my head. Jaime had always said that Ser Mandon was the most dangerous of the Kingsguard, because his dead empty eyes gave no hint to his intentions. I should never have trusted any of them. He'd known that Ser Meryn and Ser Boros were his sister's, and Ser Osmund later, but he had let himself believe that the others were not wholly lost to honor. Cersei must have paid him to see that I never came back from the battle. Why else? I never did Ser Mandon any harm that I know of. Tyrion touched his face, plucking at the proud flesh with blunt thick fingers. Another gift from my sweet sister. ASOS: Tyrion I "Good," said Tyrion, "because as it happens, I still have need of you. What do you know of Ser Mandon Moore?" Bronn laughed. "I know he's bloody well drowned." "He had eyes like a fish and he wore a white cloak. What else do you need to know?" "Everything," said Tyrion, "for a start." What he wanted was proof that Ser Mandon had been Cersei's, but he dare not say so aloud. In the Red Keep a man did best to hold his tongue. There were rats in the walls, and little birds who talked too much, and spiders. "Help me up," he said, struggling with the bedclothes. "It's time I paid a call on my father, and past time I let myself be seen again."
ASOS: Tyrion II "While we are on the subject of the Kingsguard . . . I wonder, could this delightfully unexpected visit of yours happen to concern Ser Boros's fallen brother, the gallant Ser Mandon Moore?" The eunuch stroked a powdered cheek. "Your man Bronn seems most interested in him of late." Bronn had turned up all he could on Ser Mandon, but no doubt Varys knew a deal more . . . should he choose to share it. "The man seems to have been quite friendless," Tyrion said carefully. "Sadly," said Varys, "oh, sadly. You might find some kin if you turned over enough stones back in the Vale, but here . . . Lord Arryn brought him to King's Landing and Robert gave him his white cloak, but neither loved him much, I fear. Nor was he the sort the smallfolk cheer in tourneys, despite his undoubted prowess. Why, even his brothers of the Kingsguard never warmed to him. Ser Barristan was once heard to say that the man had no friend but his sword and no life but duty . . . but you know, I do not think Selmy meant it altogether as praise. Which is queer when you consider it, is it not? Those are the very qualities we seek in our Kingsguard, it could be said—men who live not for themselves, but for their king. By those lights, our brave Ser Mandon was the perfect white knight. And he died as a knight of the Kingsguard ought, with sword in hand, defending one of the king's own blood." The eunuch gave him a slimy smile and watched him sharply. ASOS: Jaime VIII My duty, now. Once he learned to write with his left hand, that is. The White Book was well behind. The deaths of Ser Mandon Moore and Ser Preston Greenfield needed to be entered, and the brief bloody Kingsguard service of Sandor Clegane as well. New pages must be started for Ser Balon Swann, Ser Osmund Kettleblack, and the Knight of Flowers. I will need to summon a septon to draw their shields. Now, what is it in there that makes you view him as a mercenary? And as LF’s man? I can see that you think his connection to the Vale makes him LF’s though surely you can understand why Varys’s description of him and his quotes about Barristan’s opinion of the man bely that assertion? LF controls his pawns through manipulating their weaknesses but Moore is described as having no vices, nothing matters to him outside of his duty. What would LF use to manipulate him with? The man described lives simply to hold his Vow and serve his King. Ergo; he was doing the Kings bidding when he tried to murder Tyrion.
> Cersei and she wanted him dead because of the prophecy. Nothing to do with the prophecy. It's because as soon as Tyrion became the hand he slowly and methodically removed Cersei's power.
How the fuck did Mandon Moore owe everything to Cersei?
It absolutely is Joffrey who sends Mandon Moore against Tyrion. Moore is set up as being a high stickler for following orders and a man without vice with which to manipulate him. He is just doing what his King has told him to do. This is another case of people desperate for there to be someone they view as more important and more cunning behind it than Joffrey.
I was almost 100% sure that was a hit from Littlefinger? I'll have to reread
That might just be a show only thing, though anything could happen in Winds and Dream. I do think Littlefinger was the one to manipulate Joffrey into killing Ned, though.
George has said that he intended Joffrey to be the person hiring the Catspaw from the get go, and he's admitted times where he's changed other plotlines so I have no reason to doubt him on this. I think it's just an issue where he intended one thing, but then never really got around to developing the idea and suddenly tried to return back to and wrap up the plotline at the end of ASOS because it would be impossible to resolve it this way after that book. It's just a major dropped ball on his behalf. The motivation is that Joffrey is apparently in such desperate need of Robert's approval that he hires the guy to kill Bran because he overheard Robert say at breakfast one day that it would be a mercy to let Bran die. There's just so many problems with this idea that George messed up: 1. We never get to "see" the breakfast, so the readers aren't given a clue. 2. Why would Joffrey do something to impress his father when he knows his father couldn't find out about it? 3. How did Joffrey manage to find someone to do this on his own? It's not like he is good with lowborn people. I guess he got really lucky and the first random person he approached agreed to do it so there's not a couple dozen people wandering around saying how the prince tried to bribe them to kill the local lord's son. 4. The story about Joffrey cutting open the cat to get its kittens to show Robert was supposed to be a clue that Joffrey would do messed up things to impress Robert, but it ends up being more about "Joffrey is psycho", not that "Oh, I guess a young son wants to impress his father". 5. Resolution to the story is at the end of the book where the two people investigating the mystery and the killer himself are all dead, so who cares?
But why would Joffrey waste a valeryian steel dagger. I know he’s rich but even he knows how rare it is. Why give such a dagger to an assassin to use unless it was also payment for the hit. Even then why waste such precious metal. When gold and regular knife work just fine.
George also stated he regretted making it a Valyrian steel dagger since he wasn’t really sure how insanely rare and valuable they’d end up being yet.
Speaking of the dagger, I got into an argument with my friend who swears the hidden writing on the dagger that we now see in HOTD was revealed in GOT. I don’t really want to rewatch the series at the moment, but can anyone confirm. I’m 99 percent sure this didn’t happen.
That definitely did not happen in GoT. I’ve watched the later seasons twice (puke) and the first time I ever saw that text on the dagger was in HoTD.
Yeah they're def hyping up that dagger in HotD, to the point it very well may be the most notable blade in the entire show canon?
So, what you're trying to say is HotD is hyping up the catspaw dagger because the assassin in GoT was a time travelling Daemon who's also the night king?
It’s definitely going to tie into SNOW. And thanks everyone, I knew I wasn’t crazy and that my friend is a dumbass.
I think this is to somehow make sense of the ridiculous Arya kills the Nights King moment in GOT. It makes it so the ability to defeat the Others was never about the PTWP it was about the blade, it’s the blade which is special. This explains how Arya is able to kill the Nights King and end the war for the Dawn.
I mean, that wouldn't be the only time Joffrey has been shown to not care at all about an object's rarity or value. Just look at how he destroyed one of the four remaining copies of Lives of Four Kings just because he didn't like it as a gift.
Which happened just before Tyrion realized Joffrey sent the assassin with the dagger, and got a confirmation. George was pointing pretty heavily to the fact that Joffrey is a giant ass moron.
> four remaining Keep in mind that the maesters of the Citadel regularly copy and recopy books. This is just a massive pain in the ass because they need to perfectly mimic both the book’s original art and the original handwriting. They then have to wait for the ink to dry. One mistake means starting over. So for particularly ornate books, this process can take months. So yeah, more books will definitely be made. However some poor maester probably died of apoplexy after hearing what Joffrey did to his work. Joffrey’s not being a dick in this scene just because the object is rare or valuable, he’s also a dick because he’s disregarding all the effort that goes into writing and preserving knowledge in a society where the printing press doesn’t exist.
Joffrey and making bad decisions, name a more iconic duo.
Targaryen's and their siblings
Cersei and making bad decisions.
Joffrey warged into Cersei when he died.
Joffrey who sliced up a book worth a small fortune for shits and giggles? Yeah Joffrey doesn’t give a fig for how rare and special the dagger is, it is simply a weapon he had access to which he asks someone to kill Bran Stark with.
I really wish George made Mance hire the catspaw, it would perfectly explain why Mance would attempt something as risky and crazy as showing climbing up the wall and going to Winterfell when the entire Wildling cause relied on him, and getting the Starks to March south would be the perfect motive for Mance to do so.
Bruh
Mance would be the most ridiculous nonsensical answer possible.
Why? He has even more motive then Joffrey. And it can’t be more ridiculous but then Mance risking his life to go a simple scouting mission that any wildling could have done.
Mance risked it because he liked adventure! And he isn’t the kind of man to kill children just to stir shit up.
Ok I suppose he could have risked it because he liked adventure but it seems like an outstanding risk for the most important wildling to risk his life collecting basic information then anyone could collect. As for Mance being unwilling to kill children I wouldn’t say confidently that’s true we outside of not being unnecessaryly cruel we don’t have a great view of Mance’s moral compass and similarly to Stannis, Mance could view the killing of one boy to save thousands of Wildlings a worthy price to pay. Let’s also not forget in Wildling culture being a cripple means you are as good as dead anyways.
I doubt Mance is foolish enough to think killing Bran Stark would directly save thousands of Wildlings lives.
How would Mance know that there were people whom the Starks would suspect, and subsequently march south to fight as a result, at Winterfell when he would launch such an attack? While it is not too late for a retcon, particularly since Joffrey hiring the catspaw was not directly confirmed, there would still need to be an explanation of why he would try that then.
Mance wouldn’t really need to know the details of the political situation in Westeros; he could’ve simply spotted an opportunity to create some chaos by having Bran killed with a weapon that obviously came from someone in the royal party. All he needed was to steal the dagger from wherever it was (probably in one of the royal carriages), and a bag of silver to pay the assassin (which he had). This wasn’t a plan that Mance cooked up before he came south; he simply saw an opportunity and acted on it.
>How would Mance know that there were people whom the Starks would suspect, and subsequently march south to fight as a result Exactly. Too much of this theory requires Mance to be omniscient. At the point of the story where the Catspaw appears, only Ned, Catelyn, Maester Luwin, Littlefinger, and Lysa know of trouble brewing between the Starks and Lannisters. Everyone else at best might be aware that Ned doesn't like Jaime or Tywin because of the sack of King's Landing, but that was 15 years ago and not something that's likely to start a war.
I hope we get some kind of reveal about that before Mance’s death. It’s not a perfect answer, but it’s probably the best one.
Felt like he set that up and told himself he'll answer it later, but when that time came he realized he screwed up and forgot about it so came up with some half-ass answer that didn't really impact on any character or story (Joffrey's sadistic so whatever, ig it makes sense he felt like killing Bran)
It adds to Jamies doubt that Tyrion is innocent of poisoning Joffrey.
I always thought was littlefinger like in the show
Littlefinger makes way more sense anyway. He's the one setting the Lannisters and Starks up against eachother.
Aside from the logistical issues of this (the time it would take for news to reach KL and then for LF to arrange the whole hit etc.), I think it ruins a great part of LF’s character which is his ability to improvise and cause chaos out of the tiniest opportunities. Him masterminding this all from the start strains credulity IMO.
Nothing to mastermind. Have a Stark child killed to distract Eddard using a weapon that could only have come from the royal entourage. Bran however fell so an easy target was lost, but the assassin waited to fulfill his contract and failed successfully. With that change, LF just adapted when Cat presented the dagger and the events played out as he wanted. Mance seems like the type that'd hire the assassin as well, but the question would be how he got the dagger which likely was in King's Landing. LF had a better chance with two or three levels of separation between him and the cat's paw.
Maybe, but it seems like such an arbitrary play for someone like LF. Had Bran not been injured he would’ve been at KL with Sansa and Arya wouldn’t he? Killing any of them in the King’s procession would also be highly unlikely and expose whatever chain of proxies LF established should the assassin get caught. He’d already set the stage for conflict with the letter he had Lyse send the letter implicating the Lannisters in Jon Arryn’s death, having one of the kids randomly murdered with no apparent motive if anything would seem less likely to make Ned suspect Lannister involvement vs just some crazy nut job If it was LF then it would have to have been planned after finding out Bran was injured IMO. Otherwise it’s way too haphazard and risky for him.
Littlefinger makes no sense. He was in Kingslanding at the time.
The theory is that LF wanted a Stark kid dead by a weapon easily traced back to the Royal family. He planned this out when he learned King Robert was going north to make Ned his hand and planted the assassin in the king’s party. Bran was simply the easiest seeming target.
That might be your theory. Everyone who subscribes to Littlefinger as the culprit seems to have a different theory of their own. And this theory makes no sense. Littlefinger was smart enough to know that Ned would never believe that Robert would randomly want to kill one of his kids.
You do realize Tywin Lannister wasn't at the Red Wedding, but was still responsible, right?
Because those two events are obviously analogous, yes.
I think I see where you're going. Obviously, LF couldn't hire the catspaw to mercy kill Bran. However, he could have hired the catspaw weeks earlier to kill Bran or Rickon (either before the group left, or maybe even on the king's road) which was interrupted when Bran fell splitting up the Starks. The catspaw just made a change to plan without approval, failed at it, and LF rolled with the chaos that resulted into starting the war of five kings.
The procession took months to go from King's Landing to Winterfell. Do you think Littlefinger gave a Valyrian steel knife to a random sellsword (of low intelligence), and trusted that he would hold on to it for months, and then attack and kill a highborn? How does that make any sense? And how does that fit with Littlefinger's character at all? Not to mention that it's much more impressive, and so in keeping with GRRM's conception of Littlefinger, for him to have come up with his big lie in the course of a single conversation with Catelyn and Ned, rather than having months to come up with the plan.
We saw that he'd secretly use intermediaries like Sir Dontos who gave the murder weapon to Sansa, who themselves likely were hired through intermediaries. Also, it's big that he had Lyssa message Cat the hidden warning about the Lannisters killing Jon Arryn. The plan he had did not involve Bran falling and going into a coma, and Cat staying behind with Bran, Rickon, and Robb. Or with the catspaw getting killed with the dagger in hand. Likely it was meant to be a death while the royal procession was still there and the dagger found in a Lannister controlled wagon to put doubt on the Lannisters. He adapted when the actual outcome was revealed to him, even taking ownership of the dagger (likely never his).
Littlefinger was in frequent and direct conduct with Dontos. That is not analogous to entrusting a random, lowborn, uneducated lowborn with a priceless dagger months in advance of the ultimate target.
So Littlefinger ordered his catspaw: "If Bran Stark falls while climbing, steal Robert's valyrian dagger and kill him in his bed"? Do you know how ridiculous this sounds?
I think people are just very miffed that it was Joffrey. Mostly because they want it to have been someone they view as more cunning. Usually LF. To me there was never a great mystery to be solved, and I assumed Cersei - as she had the most to loose from Bran waking up. When it turned out to have been Joffrey I was just a little surprised but then it made sense as it was part of building the image of him as a cruel for cruelty’s sake nasty little brat.
I haven't thought about this in forever- I might also be mixing up the tv show with the books, but it could be Littlefinger doing an elaborate double bluff? The whole "i know it looks bad, but I SWEAR I leant it to Tyrion" - Littlefinger relying on the idea that it's too convenient for a guy with a knife basically screaming LITTLEFINGER'S KNIFE might dissuade the Starks enough, especially when he can blame those pesky Lannisters
I agree with your idea but its hard to call something so early in the story retconned....It does serve though as it gives Jamie some reason to think Tyrian did kill Joffrey as it gave him another reason to hate his nephew.
Joffrey sent the Catsoaw, but he is being manipulated by a 3rd party. The 3rd party is more than likely working for a 4th. The 4th is LF.
Honestly, Asshai is so out of the way I don’t think she was ever meant to go there. Quaithe only wanted her to go for her own reasons which will probably be revealed in the future. Her role in the story didn’t end in Qarth and it’s still not over yet.
I suspect that in the early days Dany was never going to turn West. Instead she was going to travel only East, going past Asshai and eventually appearing in sustet sea, on the western shore of Westeros. Going east to travel west. Leading dothraki to world's end, as Stalion who Mounts the World in prophecised. I know, that this doesn't seem likely or even possible because of world's map. But remeber, back in the day GRRM had pretty vague idea about the geography of his world. In fact, he himself has said that originally Essos was more compact and East of it was very different. So maybe originally Dany was meant to travel around te world. Maybe that's how Mance's Asshai silk from his cloak originally ended up on the Frozen Shore. Also, this line from ACOK seems like it could be a hint. >“The wine is ordinary. It is said that across the jade Sea they make a golden vintage so fine that one sip makes all other wines taste like vinegar. Let us take my pleasure barge and go in search of it, you and I.” >“The Arbor makes the best wine in the world,” Dany declared. It does indeed. Arbor Gold.
That was always my thought. The sun sets in the east behind her and rises in the west as she makes landing in Westeros.
Yooo!!
Idk man, if she keeps going east, Dany's going to end up in Americos where Arya's voyaging before she hit's Westeros /s
I always found that part weird. When I first read it I was sure it was foreshadowing her going to Asshai but the more the story progressed, the less sense it made. By this point Dany spending way more time than necessary on Essos is already an issue, I don't see how George could justify having her fuck off even further from Westeros to what's essentially a completely new and unexplored part of the world. He would either have to delay her coming to Westeros even more or skim on exploring and developing one of the most mysterious and interesting places in the entire setting.
Could have been a casualty of the scraped five year gap. After the gap it could have opened with her in or nearing Asshai.
When the gap was still a thing, it was supposed to open with Drogon’s attack on the fighting pits.
I believe Edrick Dayne was meant to descent into darkness along with the Brotherhood and become some sort of “sword of the night” figure, but once the five year time jump was abandoned and he remained a boy, GRRM invented Darkstar.
Greatest invention ever.
Right beneath the wheel and gunpowder.
He is of the night.
The theory of Jaime, Sandor, and Brienne being the mercenary captains in Essos after the timejump is so interesting, along with your Edric theory. It would be cool to see a story set in an alternate universe where the timejump happened
I'd read that story ngl
I think the rate of dragon growth was a retcon. I don't really care if it is a retcon, I'm not uptight about it, but just for fun discussion: ADWD is the first time Drogon is ridden by Daenerys, escaping from the fighting pits of Meereen. Drogon is 1 year old. A World of Ice and Fire (2014) and Fire & Blood (2018) introduce several new dragons at a variety of ages. They were nowhere near ridable at 1 year old as I recall. Now, I've seen a number of theories that GRRM could use as an explanation like it's because of - Drogon's being allowed to roam free rather than live inside the dragon pit - Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal being hatched via the blood magic ritual - Any attempted magic the possessors of the eggs may have done to try and get them to hatch before they came into Daenerys' possession - Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal's eggs being much older than people are guessing (I think the leading theory is they're the ones Elissa Farman stole?) But, Drogon gonna be huge as he gets older. (if he gets older)
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Maybe having the blood of the khal Drogo and the stallion who mounts the world helped.
Maybe he is the stallion who will mount the world.
Interesting the stallion who mounts the world is a dragon and not an horse.
True, but he was born from Drogo's body (kind of) and will definitely do great things in the world.
I hate calling these things retcons...as if a story can't grow as its being told. But you are correct. GRRM was originally planning for a 5 year time jump, in which the Dragons would grow, I'm guessing that Dany would learn to rule Slaver's Bay in that time - and other things I'm forgetting at the moment. You can read about how the books evolved on the wikipedia page and draw a few conclusions from that - the dragons are explicitly mentioned though.
I believe the removal of the Five Year Gap caused that particular retcon.
I can’t think of full retcons but I believe that Aegon VI/ Faegon while not shoehorned was still not certified to be alive( there are some slight hints for him to be, what I say is that Grrm was not yet decided) Another example while not to the point of a narrative plot line is the role of the wardens and what means to be a kingsguard: Ned makes a big fuss about Jaime controlling both East and West but we now know that being a warden in itself means little and that Jaime couldn’t inherit the wardenship of the west to begin with. And then there’s a lot of very minor stuff but I guess that misses the point of the question hahaha you know the public perception of Littlefinger or how fleshed out certain minor houses would end up being
Agreed, pretty sure GRRM didn't plan for Aegon/Griff, certainly anywhere near to its current form until ASoS was already out. There would by much more foreshadowing, the little foreshadowing we read into could be a million other things
I'm not sure, Varys and Ned have a conversation in the Black Cells where what happens to Rhaegar's children is brought up, and one thing that jumps out is that Varys only talks about Rhaenys in this scene. He makes no mention of Aegon.
And wouldn't this be a perfect time for Varys to actually say something that can be interpreted either way about Aegon? Like "The Hound is dead, Sandor Clegane is at peace." That's GRRM's style of foreshadowing, it's everywhere. But the only "foreshadowing" for this is, as you say, lack of explicit evidence to the contrary. That's weak sauce.
Varys is making a point about the brutality of the game of thrones and implying what could happen to Ned's own daughters by bringing up Rhaegar's, he isn't giving a comprehensive rundown of the fates of the Targaryens.
I disagree. Right before storm came out, someone asked George point blank if Rhaegars children were dead and George said point blank that there was “absolutely no doubt” that Rhaenys was dead but never even said anything about Aegon.
I think the thing with Jamie could be explained by Robert owing so much debt to Tywin, or Robert being more loose with the rules on the Kings guard, as we do see him considering making Jamie the Hand
Whoever hired the catspaw. I think that was originally meant to be part of a grander scheme of either Littlefinger or Varys, but the story them became bloated with those so he made it part of Joffrey's development instead.
It’s strange how he just didn’t choose Cersei.
The problem with making it Cersei is the problem with basically every suspect (including Joffrey). Why a valyrian steel dagger? Why not just a normal dagger? The only person it makes sense for is Little Finger, but he unfortunately doesn't have the opportunity. Mance makes perfect sense, but how did he get the dagger?
Maybe Mance took it from king Roberts weapons to throw off the investigators. It’s not entirely impossible still hard.
Wait why would Mance want bran dead?
Mance doesn't care about Bran specifically-- he would more want to destabilize the North by having Bran killed while the catspaw held an incriminating dagger.
How???? How does it being VS not make sense for anyone else but Lf?
Because Valyrian Steel is too recognizable. The only type of people that would use a Valyrian Steel dagger are people that either A. Don't understand how incriminating it is Or B. WANT the dagger to be found and for suspicions to be stoked. Now we know LF wants the latter because he later lies to Catelyn about the dagger belonging to Tyrion. But LF was in King's Landing, the time frame doesn't match up. Which really just leaves Mance.
I'm still pretty sure it was cersei. I think Joffrey knew or figured out some of it, but I think there is more to be revealed
George already said that that plot would be revealed/wrapped up in AFFC. Unless he changes his mind and decides to revisit it, I think thats all we are getting.
The man lies, constantly.
Almost as if…he intended it as Joffrey all along and it’s a deliberate part of him building his character as being a nasty cruel and empathy free shitbag.
Darkstar is the most obvious retcon, bar maybe the catspaw mystery. GRRM had clear intentions of making Edric Dayne the next great Dayne, having spent years as a “knight of the people” with the brotherhood, but once he ditched the five year skip realised he was way too young so he spawned in darkstar out of nowhere lmao
Sansa marrying Tyrion, Ramsay taking Winterfell, and Ramsay marrying Arya (via Jeyne Poole cause reasons) all just stem from the 1 original plot point that Tyrion would wed Arya and burn down winterfell, becoming rivals with Jon. Which is alluded to in AGOT where the direwolves go crazy barking at Tyrion.
Why Arya?
She may still go to Asshai. Qaithe's prophecies are becoming ever more dominant in Dany's storyline. Drogon refuses to take her West, in a very literal sense, but is compliant when she goes the other way. Going to Asshai kills a lot of its mistery, but it does give us the readers a chance to learn more about dragons, and maybe even glimpse at the true past of Melisandre, so it could have its uses, narratively speaking.
Jon and Arya being a thing.There are inumerous hints in the books their bond is too strong and than there is the original outline.... I think Martin originally planned to Arya be Jon's Nissa Nissa but he scrapped his plan (Arya is his wife's favorite character and he promised her she will Live to the end of ASOIAF ).
>Jon and Arya being a thing.There are inumerous hints in the books their bond is too strong and than there is the original outline.... Seriously? The very same book where Jon favorite greeting for Arya is "little sister"? There is nothing unusual about their interaction and would be extremely creepy otherwise considering Arya is nine. >I think Martin originally planned to Arya be Jon's Nissa Nissa but he scrapped his plan (Arya is his wife's favorite character and he promised her she will Live to the end of ASOIAF ). He couldn't have planned that since was Drogo was Daenerys' Nissa Nissa in the very first book.
The valonqar prophesy being the main reason Cersei hates Tyrion so much, and also as the primary cause of her madness. With regards to the former, Cersei had plenty of reason to hate Tyrion as it was, since she (and Tywin) blame him for Joanna's death. As for the latter, I get that it was because George didn't feel he could do the five-year gap, but Cersei didn't need a prophesy making her so paranoid that Margaery was the "Younger More Beautiful Queen" for her to do everything she could to keep herself in power, which would've included removing her rival (Margaery) by any means necessary.
Doran's whole plan for a Targaryen restoration. In fact, it does so little in the story that it seems to me to be a retcone introduced late. Because apparently a contract with viserys is made since daenerys early childhood as signed by ser willem. The problem is that after he dies, he does nothing to make the contract last, neither informed Viserys, nor financially support the targaryens, nor just send them a guy to protect them and make sure they don't do things that would screw up the plan like die, marry someone else, or give up westeros, or just tell them "you still have friends". daenerys had to get her fingers out of her ass and get power and an army on her own before he considered doing anything. Besides, why did you wait so long? Viserys was over 20 when he died, so it's not a question of age. And if it's about waiting for an opportunity to trigger a conflict without too much risk, one he never did anything to trigger this opportunity, so he could have waited a long time. Two, this opportunity is to present with the war of the 5 kings, and he did nothing. They only begin to act long after...
I think it would have been much better if Doran knew about fAegon, thinking it was really him and supporting him over the years. That would have at least explained why he gave no shit about Dany and Viserys.
The body in the barrel mentioned when Tyrion and Jorah get passage on a ship from the Widow of the Wharf. Likely a holdover or editing mistake from when GRRM would have Marwyn the Mage on the Cinnamon Wind with Maester Aemond being the body in the barrel. Valyrian Steel originally wasn't meant to be anything that special, but was retconned to be very rare and expensive. The value of a gold coin. Probably much cheaper in book 1 than raised to where you could buy a horse with one. Maybe less a retcon and more GRRM not caring to much about the math of things (architecture, land mass, and economics).
>Valyrian Steel originally wasn't meant to be anything that special, but was retconned to be very rare and expensive. Yeah the whole Catspaw plotline would be more believable if it was just regular dagger instead of a super rare one that was used on a helpless child after some important people leave the place. Still has some other problems as pointed out by others in this thread.
There's no way fAegon wasn't retconned along with possibly the entire Dorne plot
Catspaw dagger, possibly Tyrion Targaryen. fAegon.
Sansa having a Joff's baby. Dany killing Drogo for killing her brother. The only storyline I would have liked better in the original outline instead of that cringy lovestory. Dany should have hatched the eggs while crawling into the burning pyre of her brother. Makes more sense that dragonblood would hatch the eggs. Joff fighting Robb in battle. Tyrion x Arya x Jon love triangle. Jon x Arya was for sure set up in book one and even a little in book 2 but I think George changed his mind after book 3 since he abandoned the time jump and Arya is far too young to be with Jon. Jaime going super evil Richard III. Dany invading in book 2. I think that wa the original plan or at least book 3. FAegon did note exist in book 1. The whole Warden stuff. Tyrion burning down Winterfell. Dany going to Asshai and learing dragon powers. I think that was the orginal plan. Bran hating Jon. Cat going to the Wall and dying. I think Ned Dayne was supposed to get Dawn.