Welcome to a close personal relationship with reality!
I agree with your current take about sending ourselves to hell.
Under this mythology, God makes the rules. God knows what we will choose. God knows that God could have made things such that I would choose heaven. But, God didn't do that.
So, God made me to burn be in hell.
A hypothetical God like that is evil and, as a moral imperative, should be resisted.
What's funny/sad is that many Christians (Calvinists) agree with your entire statement except the final conclusion that God is evil. How they contort their mind in such a way, I'm not sure, but the doctrine is biblical. "Vessels unto dishonor" and such.
> "Vessels unto dishonor"
I actually had to google that. What a fucking concept!
Colossians 4:1 merely asserts that all Christians are slaves to Christ. The vessels (2 Tim 2:20, if I got the right reference) implies that humans are just things, not even sentient beings, just things to be used as God sees fit.
How do Christians assert that atheists are the ones with no meaning in our lives when we are free adults able to choose our own meaning or even no meaning while they are mere possessions of God to be used in whatever way God sees fit?
Some of us are apparently wine goblets while others are chamber pots. But, that does not leave anyone to be fully human.
Jesus fucking Christ on a pogo cross that's dark!
I realize now that there are actually a couple references to "vessels unto dishonor." The one I was referring to is in Romans 9, not 2 Timothy 2, just in case you saw that one. Yeah, it is a messed up concept. Basically, God creates some people for destruction, at his own whim, and who are we to question him for it? When I was a Christian, I interpreted these verses as not talking about personal salvation and damnation, but Calvinists do.
They both say similar things about the vessels. But, you're right that Romans 9 really does make the point better since it explicitly says that God is not all merciful and shows mercy to whomever the fuck he feels like and not to whomever he does not feel like.
I don't know how anyone ever got the idea that God was omnibenevolent from this shit.
To clarify, I meant that as a compliment. Not in any way disparaging. I should have made that clear initially and I should have asked if you listen to that channel, rather than state it as a claim.
There is a YouTube channel called misterdeity (Brian Dalton). He has a number of videos called 'The Way of the Mister'. Hilarious counter apologetics. I'm a recent video of him commenting on an interview of Cosmic Skeptic (Alex O'Connor) and William Lane Craig, Brian makes a comment about Craig's thought process. That comment was very similar to your last line.
Ah ... I wonder if I have a friend who listens to him. I got Jesus Christ on a pogo stick from a friend and former coworker. Though, I think I probably got it from him in the early 2000s.
I changed it to a pogo cross. (Boing! Ouch! Boing! Ouch! Boing! Ouch!)
It's a pretty sick religion having a hell in the first place, but they wouldn't be able to coerce you with anything to make you submit if not.
Congratulations on your escape from the religion that is no different from a cult besides being bigger.
Considering the fact that he created us in full knowledge of the fact that we were gonna end up in hell eternally, he pretty much created us in hell already, from the start. Like we’re already in hell from his perspective and there’s nothing we can do.
But if there was a God that was omnipotent then he could also create us with free will. You've just fallen into the trap of the inherent contradiction of omnipotence, which only proves that your brain is finite, not what an omnipotent being could or could not do.
That's the thing with the christian free will. It's not free will, it's unrestrained will.
In society I'm not free to murder people because if I do there are consequences for me. Being free would mean absence of consequences.
But no one stops me from murdering anyone. Anyone could easily murder anyone else. Mechanically it's easy. But we don't, mostly because we don't enjoy the idea, but some people don't only because of the consequences that arises. Still, we're not restrained to do so.
Same with the christian belief. God does not forcefully stop you from doing bad things, still, you're not free to do them of he punishes you afterwards.
There is a law where I live (YMMV) that essentially makes me responsible for the safety of visitors to my property. Even if someone breaks in and injures themselves in one of my burglar traps, I’m the one responsible under law. There are good reasons why *“I didn’t force him to walk in to the burgulartrap2000, he did that by himself, your honour.”* would not be a good defence.
"God doesn't send you to hell; you have free will and you send yourself to hell" has the same energy as an abusive spouse/parent saying "Look what you've made me do" after they beat their partner/child.
100% True
An abusive husband doesn’t beat his wife, his wife chooses to be beat by not loving him.
Its the same shit. But you only can see it without religious dogma.
>Abuse is bad, immoral, and should be punished.
Glad you're halfway there. Eternal punishment for finite misdeeds *is* abuse.
>Life is full of choices and if you choose to not be with God, he won’t force you to, out of love.
It's hardly as innocuous as you are trying to paint it as. If god doesn't want to force himself/herself on anyone "out of love" (eye roll), they can just choose to leave that person dead. There's no need to resurrect them and torture them for eternity.
God forced us to be in Jesus Christ bloodline some of us more chosen than others but all i learned from this is that everyone else should enjoy benefits regarding being chosen than just the chosen person and it shows
I'ts random but in the show "Invincible" when omni-man murders innocents, he says excactly the stuff youd hear feom christians:
"You know deep in your heart that I am right"
"Why did you make me do this?"
I keep imagining a home owner being interviewed on the news and explaining how people keep wondering into the torture chamber under his house and getting hurt through no fault of his. And then the interviewer asks, "But sir why did you build a torture chamber under your house?"
I loved the show lucifer. This was one of the things he made a big thing about. Lucifer is like: you are here because of your guilt. I did not make you do bad things and I did not send you to hell. I only do my job of punishing you when you are down there...and I punish you using your own guilt
I've only sporadically watched it, but doesn't he not even do the punishment? Like, I remember one episode where a dude was stuck in a loop of his big guilt and lucifer came to talk to him and pointed out that the door to the cell wasn't even locked, the dude could just *not* and walk out the door, but instead was trapped by his own guilt and lucifer didn't even do anything.
There is no evidence for the possibility of a soul, let alone evidence for a soul; our body and mind are one and the same (singularity), not separate (duality). The possibility of an afterlife has not been demonstrated, let alone evidence for an actual afterlife. Therefore, the concept of heaven and hell is redundant; if the body and mind are integrated, then when you are done, you are done. This is the only humane response, because anything else would become hell, including heaven.
https://youtu.be/DYGRZ3cFt5g
This is my favorite response to it.
Enjoy.
Isaiah 45:7
> I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Which god? Pascal’s wager is so dumb in this instance. There are over 4000 religions and all say they are the “right” one.
What if you choose the wrong religion and anger the real god? See how it doesn’t work
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In a way, they do send themselves to a "hell". If thought about, the preserving of their dead removes any chance of that once was star dust rejoining nature as we should. The ultimate return to innocence denied... until the simulation collapses.
That's their way of dismissing their god's responsibility. It's all about blame and emotional abuse.
Welcome aboard. We all said stupid things as theists. Even mild theists do it.
Thank you! I agree, when i was a theist, i wasn’t thinking with a straight mind. Because of indoctrination i tried to use every single non logical excuse for hell and all these things.
As an ex christian myself, the post-deconversion cringe is real. I'm very embarrassed by things I used to believe and say and as a result I have no patience for people who do the same I used to.
Pretty impressive that you made that 180 at such a young age.
Eh, kids are stupid and you were indoctrinated. Past actions are embarrassing, you sound like you really have moved on and acknowledge your past choices as erroneous.
Take a deep breath and keep moving forward.
Jesus’s brother Jude said it pretty well:
“Now I want to remind you, though you know everything once and for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.”
two types of people:
saved VS destroyed - those believe VS those who do not - those who obey VS those who rebel
we will all stand before God with Jesus Christ as our defender or prosecutor, based solely on our deeds. repent.
….or keep trucking with whatever it is you hope will happen when our time in earth has expired.
Well i’m so happy to not believe in such a god cause if what the bible said about god is the truth then he is an absolute evil monster not even worthy of anyones worship.
A god like that has conditional love for you.
You’re under threat of eternal damnation for the simple fact of disbelief.
do you feel more alive now that you’ve broken free from the Christianity that was shoved down your throat at some point? does the earth more colorful with more sounds & smells now?
because i feel that, just in the opposite direction.
You’re funny, l give you that.
Still, there’s no actual argument to take from here, l became an uncle a few years ago and this is how my nephew sounds when he’s mad about smth
What's the point of free will, pre-destination, and omniscience if your sky daddy is just going to let you go to the place where you burn for eternity? That doesn't sound like a being that loves unconditionally and eternally...
But he did send his son down to be tortured so that everyone else could be forgiven their sins... Which we still go to hell for...
.
Yeah, doesn't make sense to me either. Almost as if it was some human's idea and they didn't quite think it through.
This is the same god who put Adam and Eve in Eden, along with the trees of the knowledge of good and evil and eternal life, forgot to tell them not to eat of the eternal life one, and then tossed in a talking serpent as well. It's all a rigged game.
You are not sending yourself because you would need free will in order to technically do that. Also there is \[probably\] no hell. Although it is very hot and humid here year round in Saigon.
There is no reason to belive he isn't the cause of evil. He even says he is in his own souce material.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Not to mention, he's the devil only shows up 3 times and he's not the bad guy.
1: provides knowledge, God throws a fit and throws humans out of paradise
2: book of Job where the he says to God "I think your over doing it" and God's like "na I'm going to double down, watch this, he's still going to say he loves me. This will be great"
3: a first hand account of an uncharacteristic appearance in the desert to temp Jesus into evil, a story written 150+ years after his death and was an event that he was apparently alone for....
Then there is the whole, only humans have free will so Satan as an angel would not have been able to betray, but just do what he was designed and controlled to.
And this is Hell—and in this smother
All are damnable and damned;
Each one damning, damns the other;
They are damned by one another,
By none other are they damned.
- Shelley
The Nicene Creed is a foundational Christian document, a summary of Christian belief written by the bishops during the first few centuries of the Christian church. It says that Jesus will judge everyone. To say that he won't is heresy. If a Christian Apologist says that we judge ourselves, that shows either great ignorance about Chtistianity or great desperation to make it somehow make sense.
When people say that, you immediately know they have never put any actual thought into that statement.
If god is all knowing, and knows every choice you will ever make, he knows what your beliefs will be at the time of your death. If you die not believing, he knew that would happen and chose to create you anyway. He literally created you for the purpose of sending you to hell.
It always bothered me, that, even though it says in the Bible directly that no one is called up to heaven until the last day, meaning judgment day. But every minister talks about the dead being in a better place now and I always thought no they won’t go to heaven until the last day, judgment when people are separated to go to heaven or hell.
This was one of the fallacies that turned me away from Christian religions.
I think the Quran says something similar, that all people including believers will actually go to hell until the final days or something. So they have dogma that suggests that the good people will spend their time across a razor thin bridge above hell.
I remember saying this exact thing too. Religion blinds and poisons your mind. I kept making shitty excuses for why there is so much death and destruction in the world and also for “free-will.” Looking back, I would’ve punched myself in the face lmfao
This. Its literally like its not you talking but the religion. But when you’re free then you realize the nonsense shit you talked when you were a christian
I think saying it wasn’t you talking takes the responsibility away. Like yes, we were indoctrinated to believe in magic and hate others because of who they are, but *we* spewed the bs and we gotta own up to that. That’s the only way (for me, anyway) that we can atone for the absolute nonsense and hurtful things we partook of, you know?
I've always wondered, but as we all know, christians never provide an answer, but what was the thought process for you? What was your reasoning?
I'm genuinely curious at the thought process making it possible to justify something not being God's fault despite being the direct result of his decision?
Basically indoctrination taking effect there. When you’re raised as a christian that becomes reality for you even if its not. Even if you could prove that god doesn’t exist to a christian their indoctrinated mind will make an excuse that god still exists.
So in short you try to avoid the actual reasons and logic by making excuses on why god would do such an evil thing. For example there are still people trying to justify literal slavery in the bible
The god described by christians is a sadistic torture demon. He’s churning out millions of souls knowing full well that a majority will not “meet expectations” and be sent to an eternal torture realm. Proof enough to me that these stories are not to be taken literally
I liked this idea. IDK where it originated, but I was first introduced to it for the movie What Dreams May Come. I don't think that movie has specific ties to a particular religion, so it works in universe, but there are definitely flaws when joined with Christian theology. The biggest problem would be the most central tenant: you have to believe in Jesus Christ. I can see how maybe being temporarily exposed to the spirits of all things might illicit an emotional response of guilt against any harm done to others while alive, but who is punishing themselves for just not knowing that guy? There's no amount of guilt that will make a person trap themselves for all eternity just because they never met a guy that was never introduced to them. Isn't he there in heaven? Can't we just hook up then?
I mean, I get where they're coming from, even though it's shitty. It's like a suspect talking to the police, and the police say if the suspect flees, he's going to jail. Suspect says he doesn't want to go to jail. But cop explains if he runs, the rules mandates that the cop has to give chase, and then put the suspect in jail. So it's the suspect's choice.
However, with God's case, he makes a completely irrational, shitty deal. If we don't believe, because of lack of evidence and our critical thinking, we're doomed for eternity. Because thems the rules. My counter to that is for people like me who are ex-Christian, well, "once saved, always saved." So no need to worry about me!
Mathew 25:41
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Hell is a concept that was only introduced into Christianity when they realized they couldn't scare enough people into following the dumb religion. No I'm not doing a bit it's legitimately a change that was done.
Good people don't go to heaven, only Christians do. You can do any evil, murder and rape your entire life, and as long as you say sorry to your buddy Jesus before you die there are no repercussions for your actions. Exactly how is this moral?
Matt Dillahunty's comeback to this claim really makes you think. If God's all-powerful and all-knowing, didn't he create hell? And if everything's part of God's plan, isn't he responsible for souls in hell too? It's a tough question that pokes holes in Christian theology.
It's the ultimate narcissistic fantasy- "worship me forever or suffer horribly forever!" And since Narcissist Ned/Nancy makes the rules, no, it's not a fantasy where anyone has a choice other than those two.
Hell itself is an outright sadist fantasy. Torture forever? As make-believe goes, it's going to be the lowest thing that lacks evidence that can be insisted upon. That religious types wish it- or even "innocently" pretend it- on anyone says more about them than those they wishfully condemn...
This is like if a parent said "I'm not going to break your kneecaps for disobeying me, you're the one who will make me do it for disobeying me". God is the one making the rules. He doesn't have to do it. It's such a lousy way to justify cruelty to think that everyone has to obey your every whim and then blame them for you giving harsh punishment.
Christian with current theological findibgs here: Hell doesn't exist. Neither does Heaven. That is, the Hell and Heaven we think of. The current concept was formed by the medieval church to utilise fear as a means to gain power. The people who actually wrote the bible had most likely a completely different, less literal, image.
Here's how it was explained to me years ago:
There's a man on death row. On the night before his scheduled execution, the governor issues a pardon. All the man has to do is accept the pardon to avoid his punishment. But he refuses.
What's the governor to do?
Non-Christians are like the condemned man who won't accept God's forgiveness. What's God to do? He can't *force* us to take the pardon. So we have essentially "chosen" our punishment.
Now, I didn't realize it at the time, but there are several problems with this analogy. It only works if you accept that your "sins" are worthy of the death penalty. Why are we condemned in the first place? Except for the very few who have committed actual murder, we have not done anything to deserve eternal punishment. In this scenario, our "loving" God is much less forgiving, much more severe than our human judicial systems.
Christians have thrown that line at me so many times that I cooked up a fun albeit somewhat trollish response that never fails to get a great reaction:
"Nope, I'm not going to hell, I absolutely refuse. If god wants me in hell, god is going to have to violate my free will and put me there himself. If god has no issue violating my free will to force me into hell, then he should've had no issue violating Eve's free will and stopped her eating the Fruit of Knowledge and prevented a really dumb religion from ever starting."
It's a very stupid argument if you actually dismantle it, but it *always* results in some of the most comical mental gymnastics you will ever hear out of a Christian, and they will say absolutely absurd things in response to it.
It's also fun pointing out how alarmed you are that they'd sooner abandon the idea of free will than they would their beloved concept of hell and eternal torture.
Welcome to a close personal relationship with reality! I agree with your current take about sending ourselves to hell. Under this mythology, God makes the rules. God knows what we will choose. God knows that God could have made things such that I would choose heaven. But, God didn't do that. So, God made me to burn be in hell. A hypothetical God like that is evil and, as a moral imperative, should be resisted.
What's funny/sad is that many Christians (Calvinists) agree with your entire statement except the final conclusion that God is evil. How they contort their mind in such a way, I'm not sure, but the doctrine is biblical. "Vessels unto dishonor" and such.
> "Vessels unto dishonor" I actually had to google that. What a fucking concept! Colossians 4:1 merely asserts that all Christians are slaves to Christ. The vessels (2 Tim 2:20, if I got the right reference) implies that humans are just things, not even sentient beings, just things to be used as God sees fit. How do Christians assert that atheists are the ones with no meaning in our lives when we are free adults able to choose our own meaning or even no meaning while they are mere possessions of God to be used in whatever way God sees fit? Some of us are apparently wine goblets while others are chamber pots. But, that does not leave anyone to be fully human. Jesus fucking Christ on a pogo cross that's dark!
I realize now that there are actually a couple references to "vessels unto dishonor." The one I was referring to is in Romans 9, not 2 Timothy 2, just in case you saw that one. Yeah, it is a messed up concept. Basically, God creates some people for destruction, at his own whim, and who are we to question him for it? When I was a Christian, I interpreted these verses as not talking about personal salvation and damnation, but Calvinists do.
They both say similar things about the vessels. But, you're right that Romans 9 really does make the point better since it explicitly says that God is not all merciful and shows mercy to whomever the fuck he feels like and not to whomever he does not feel like. I don't know how anyone ever got the idea that God was omnibenevolent from this shit.
P.S. Thanks for my NT bible lesson of the day. Saving this for future reference.
You're welcome. I'm glad that all the years I spent reading and studying it didn't completely go to waste.
Someone listens to the way of the Mister.
> Someone listens to the way of the Mister. Honestly, I'm not even sure what that is or why you think so. But, please enlighten me.
To clarify, I meant that as a compliment. Not in any way disparaging. I should have made that clear initially and I should have asked if you listen to that channel, rather than state it as a claim. There is a YouTube channel called misterdeity (Brian Dalton). He has a number of videos called 'The Way of the Mister'. Hilarious counter apologetics. I'm a recent video of him commenting on an interview of Cosmic Skeptic (Alex O'Connor) and William Lane Craig, Brian makes a comment about Craig's thought process. That comment was very similar to your last line.
Ah ... I wonder if I have a friend who listens to him. I got Jesus Christ on a pogo stick from a friend and former coworker. Though, I think I probably got it from him in the early 2000s. I changed it to a pogo cross. (Boing! Ouch! Boing! Ouch! Boing! Ouch!)
Thank you! Yeah that was what started my deconstruction.
I'm a pretty agnostic Christian but this is exactly why hell doesn't fit into my understanding of Christian theology
It's a pretty sick religion having a hell in the first place, but they wouldn't be able to coerce you with anything to make you submit if not. Congratulations on your escape from the religion that is no different from a cult besides being bigger.
Thank you!
This. How could kings keep the poors from killing them if they weren't scared of hell?
Considering the fact that he created us in full knowledge of the fact that we were gonna end up in hell eternally, he pretty much created us in hell already, from the start. Like we’re already in hell from his perspective and there’s nothing we can do.
But if there was a God that was omnipotent then he could also create us with free will. You've just fallen into the trap of the inherent contradiction of omnipotence, which only proves that your brain is finite, not what an omnipotent being could or could not do.
I don’t deny omnipotence, I deny benevolence.
That's the thing with the christian free will. It's not free will, it's unrestrained will. In society I'm not free to murder people because if I do there are consequences for me. Being free would mean absence of consequences. But no one stops me from murdering anyone. Anyone could easily murder anyone else. Mechanically it's easy. But we don't, mostly because we don't enjoy the idea, but some people don't only because of the consequences that arises. Still, we're not restrained to do so. Same with the christian belief. God does not forcefully stop you from doing bad things, still, you're not free to do them of he punishes you afterwards.
There is a law where I live (YMMV) that essentially makes me responsible for the safety of visitors to my property. Even if someone breaks in and injures themselves in one of my burglar traps, I’m the one responsible under law. There are good reasons why *“I didn’t force him to walk in to the burgulartrap2000, he did that by himself, your honour.”* would not be a good defence.
“But he chose to walk in the burglar trap”
"God doesn't send you to hell; you have free will and you send yourself to hell" has the same energy as an abusive spouse/parent saying "Look what you've made me do" after they beat their partner/child.
100% True An abusive husband doesn’t beat his wife, his wife chooses to be beat by not loving him. Its the same shit. But you only can see it without religious dogma.
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>Abuse is bad, immoral, and should be punished. Glad you're halfway there. Eternal punishment for finite misdeeds *is* abuse. >Life is full of choices and if you choose to not be with God, he won’t force you to, out of love. It's hardly as innocuous as you are trying to paint it as. If god doesn't want to force himself/herself on anyone "out of love" (eye roll), they can just choose to leave that person dead. There's no need to resurrect them and torture them for eternity.
God forced us to be in Jesus Christ bloodline some of us more chosen than others but all i learned from this is that everyone else should enjoy benefits regarding being chosen than just the chosen person and it shows
I'ts random but in the show "Invincible" when omni-man murders innocents, he says excactly the stuff youd hear feom christians: "You know deep in your heart that I am right" "Why did you make me do this?"
A lot of Christians have an abusive relationship with their creator.
Muslims, too.
I keep imagining a home owner being interviewed on the news and explaining how people keep wondering into the torture chamber under his house and getting hurt through no fault of his. And then the interviewer asks, "But sir why did you build a torture chamber under your house?"
I loved the show lucifer. This was one of the things he made a big thing about. Lucifer is like: you are here because of your guilt. I did not make you do bad things and I did not send you to hell. I only do my job of punishing you when you are down there...and I punish you using your own guilt
I've only sporadically watched it, but doesn't he not even do the punishment? Like, I remember one episode where a dude was stuck in a loop of his big guilt and lucifer came to talk to him and pointed out that the door to the cell wasn't even locked, the dude could just *not* and walk out the door, but instead was trapped by his own guilt and lucifer didn't even do anything.
he was basically the manager/supervisor. He worked with demons to plan the setup. The demons usually impersonated/acted as the people in their loops.
There is no evidence for the possibility of a soul, let alone evidence for a soul; our body and mind are one and the same (singularity), not separate (duality). The possibility of an afterlife has not been demonstrated, let alone evidence for an actual afterlife. Therefore, the concept of heaven and hell is redundant; if the body and mind are integrated, then when you are done, you are done. This is the only humane response, because anything else would become hell, including heaven.
https://youtu.be/DYGRZ3cFt5g This is my favorite response to it. Enjoy. Isaiah 45:7 > I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Love these guys
When they say ‘it’s your choice that sends you to hell’ say ‘ok I choose not to go, now what?’
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Which god? Pascal’s wager is so dumb in this instance. There are over 4000 religions and all say they are the “right” one. What if you choose the wrong religion and anger the real god? See how it doesn’t work
Honest belief is a natural reaction, not a choice.
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In a way, they do send themselves to a "hell". If thought about, the preserving of their dead removes any chance of that once was star dust rejoining nature as we should. The ultimate return to innocence denied... until the simulation collapses.
You have chosen wisely young grasshopper!
That's their way of dismissing their god's responsibility. It's all about blame and emotional abuse. Welcome aboard. We all said stupid things as theists. Even mild theists do it.
Thank you! I agree, when i was a theist, i wasn’t thinking with a straight mind. Because of indoctrination i tried to use every single non logical excuse for hell and all these things.
As an ex christian myself, the post-deconversion cringe is real. I'm very embarrassed by things I used to believe and say and as a result I have no patience for people who do the same I used to.
Hey atleast we woke up and realized in what shit we were believing in.
Pretty impressive that you made that 180 at such a young age. Eh, kids are stupid and you were indoctrinated. Past actions are embarrassing, you sound like you really have moved on and acknowledge your past choices as erroneous. Take a deep breath and keep moving forward.
Truly, thank you! Although my dad thinks i took the wrong way and says how wrong i am, i hope he will get it later
Jesus’s brother Jude said it pretty well: “Now I want to remind you, though you know everything once and for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.” two types of people: saved VS destroyed - those believe VS those who do not - those who obey VS those who rebel we will all stand before God with Jesus Christ as our defender or prosecutor, based solely on our deeds. repent. ….or keep trucking with whatever it is you hope will happen when our time in earth has expired.
Well i’m so happy to not believe in such a god cause if what the bible said about god is the truth then he is an absolute evil monster not even worthy of anyones worship. A god like that has conditional love for you. You’re under threat of eternal damnation for the simple fact of disbelief.
what do you believe?
An atheist
do you feel more alive now that you’ve broken free from the Christianity that was shoved down your throat at some point? does the earth more colorful with more sounds & smells now? because i feel that, just in the opposite direction.
Exactly! I feel like that
good luck on your lifelong path to truth.
You’re funny, l give you that. Still, there’s no actual argument to take from here, l became an uncle a few years ago and this is how my nephew sounds when he’s mad about smth
Why am i funny? What i said is straight facts.
The way you worded it, sounds childish. Still, even if they were facts, there should be an argument for why they are facts.
What's the point of free will, pre-destination, and omniscience if your sky daddy is just going to let you go to the place where you burn for eternity? That doesn't sound like a being that loves unconditionally and eternally... But he did send his son down to be tortured so that everyone else could be forgiven their sins... Which we still go to hell for... . Yeah, doesn't make sense to me either. Almost as if it was some human's idea and they didn't quite think it through.
Not to mention that fear is the best emotion to use for control and entrapment.
Welcome
Congratulations on breaking free from your brainwashing bonds.
This is the same god who put Adam and Eve in Eden, along with the trees of the knowledge of good and evil and eternal life, forgot to tell them not to eat of the eternal life one, and then tossed in a talking serpent as well. It's all a rigged game.
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Yeah thanks i agree!
You are not sending yourself because you would need free will in order to technically do that. Also there is \[probably\] no hell. Although it is very hot and humid here year round in Saigon.
Well don’t they all say its because of free will that we have to choose god?
There is no reason to belive he isn't the cause of evil. He even says he is in his own souce material. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Not to mention, he's the devil only shows up 3 times and he's not the bad guy. 1: provides knowledge, God throws a fit and throws humans out of paradise 2: book of Job where the he says to God "I think your over doing it" and God's like "na I'm going to double down, watch this, he's still going to say he loves me. This will be great" 3: a first hand account of an uncharacteristic appearance in the desert to temp Jesus into evil, a story written 150+ years after his death and was an event that he was apparently alone for.... Then there is the whole, only humans have free will so Satan as an angel would not have been able to betray, but just do what he was designed and controlled to.
i hear you. but try to remember that if you don't cringe at your past self, it means you aren't growing.
And this is Hell—and in this smother All are damnable and damned; Each one damning, damns the other; They are damned by one another, By none other are they damned. - Shelley
The Nicene Creed is a foundational Christian document, a summary of Christian belief written by the bishops during the first few centuries of the Christian church. It says that Jesus will judge everyone. To say that he won't is heresy. If a Christian Apologist says that we judge ourselves, that shows either great ignorance about Chtistianity or great desperation to make it somehow make sense.
When people say that, you immediately know they have never put any actual thought into that statement. If god is all knowing, and knows every choice you will ever make, he knows what your beliefs will be at the time of your death. If you die not believing, he knew that would happen and chose to create you anyway. He literally created you for the purpose of sending you to hell.
It always bothered me, that, even though it says in the Bible directly that no one is called up to heaven until the last day, meaning judgment day. But every minister talks about the dead being in a better place now and I always thought no they won’t go to heaven until the last day, judgment when people are separated to go to heaven or hell. This was one of the fallacies that turned me away from Christian religions.
I think the Quran says something similar, that all people including believers will actually go to hell until the final days or something. So they have dogma that suggests that the good people will spend their time across a razor thin bridge above hell.
I remember saying this exact thing too. Religion blinds and poisons your mind. I kept making shitty excuses for why there is so much death and destruction in the world and also for “free-will.” Looking back, I would’ve punched myself in the face lmfao
This. Its literally like its not you talking but the religion. But when you’re free then you realize the nonsense shit you talked when you were a christian
I think saying it wasn’t you talking takes the responsibility away. Like yes, we were indoctrinated to believe in magic and hate others because of who they are, but *we* spewed the bs and we gotta own up to that. That’s the only way (for me, anyway) that we can atone for the absolute nonsense and hurtful things we partook of, you know?
No no i agree i was just saying it was oike the religion talking through you. Not taking any responsibility away it was ultimately us.
I've always wondered, but as we all know, christians never provide an answer, but what was the thought process for you? What was your reasoning? I'm genuinely curious at the thought process making it possible to justify something not being God's fault despite being the direct result of his decision?
Basically indoctrination taking effect there. When you’re raised as a christian that becomes reality for you even if its not. Even if you could prove that god doesn’t exist to a christian their indoctrinated mind will make an excuse that god still exists. So in short you try to avoid the actual reasons and logic by making excuses on why god would do such an evil thing. For example there are still people trying to justify literal slavery in the bible
The god described by christians is a sadistic torture demon. He’s churning out millions of souls knowing full well that a majority will not “meet expectations” and be sent to an eternal torture realm. Proof enough to me that these stories are not to be taken literally
Interesting. So who made this place, hell, in the first place?
Exactly! God
I liked this idea. IDK where it originated, but I was first introduced to it for the movie What Dreams May Come. I don't think that movie has specific ties to a particular religion, so it works in universe, but there are definitely flaws when joined with Christian theology. The biggest problem would be the most central tenant: you have to believe in Jesus Christ. I can see how maybe being temporarily exposed to the spirits of all things might illicit an emotional response of guilt against any harm done to others while alive, but who is punishing themselves for just not knowing that guy? There's no amount of guilt that will make a person trap themselves for all eternity just because they never met a guy that was never introduced to them. Isn't he there in heaven? Can't we just hook up then?
I mean, I get where they're coming from, even though it's shitty. It's like a suspect talking to the police, and the police say if the suspect flees, he's going to jail. Suspect says he doesn't want to go to jail. But cop explains if he runs, the rules mandates that the cop has to give chase, and then put the suspect in jail. So it's the suspect's choice. However, with God's case, he makes a completely irrational, shitty deal. If we don't believe, because of lack of evidence and our critical thinking, we're doomed for eternity. Because thems the rules. My counter to that is for people like me who are ex-Christian, well, "once saved, always saved." So no need to worry about me!
The Bible never mentions hell, I think it is a scare tactic made by humans to get ppl to believe.
Wrong, bible mentions hell many times. But i agree its man made
Where?
Mathew 25:41 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Hell is a concept that was only introduced into Christianity when they realized they couldn't scare enough people into following the dumb religion. No I'm not doing a bit it's legitimately a change that was done.
Good people don't go to heaven, only Christians do. You can do any evil, murder and rape your entire life, and as long as you say sorry to your buddy Jesus before you die there are no repercussions for your actions. Exactly how is this moral?
Matt Dillahunty's comeback to this claim really makes you think. If God's all-powerful and all-knowing, didn't he create hell? And if everything's part of God's plan, isn't he responsible for souls in hell too? It's a tough question that pokes holes in Christian theology.
It's the ultimate narcissistic fantasy- "worship me forever or suffer horribly forever!" And since Narcissist Ned/Nancy makes the rules, no, it's not a fantasy where anyone has a choice other than those two. Hell itself is an outright sadist fantasy. Torture forever? As make-believe goes, it's going to be the lowest thing that lacks evidence that can be insisted upon. That religious types wish it- or even "innocently" pretend it- on anyone says more about them than those they wishfully condemn...
Its the same as if a parent is abusing a child. "You chose for this to happen when you misbehaved"
This is like if a parent said "I'm not going to break your kneecaps for disobeying me, you're the one who will make me do it for disobeying me". God is the one making the rules. He doesn't have to do it. It's such a lousy way to justify cruelty to think that everyone has to obey your every whim and then blame them for you giving harsh punishment.
Christian with current theological findibgs here: Hell doesn't exist. Neither does Heaven. That is, the Hell and Heaven we think of. The current concept was formed by the medieval church to utilise fear as a means to gain power. The people who actually wrote the bible had most likely a completely different, less literal, image.
Here's how it was explained to me years ago: There's a man on death row. On the night before his scheduled execution, the governor issues a pardon. All the man has to do is accept the pardon to avoid his punishment. But he refuses. What's the governor to do? Non-Christians are like the condemned man who won't accept God's forgiveness. What's God to do? He can't *force* us to take the pardon. So we have essentially "chosen" our punishment. Now, I didn't realize it at the time, but there are several problems with this analogy. It only works if you accept that your "sins" are worthy of the death penalty. Why are we condemned in the first place? Except for the very few who have committed actual murder, we have not done anything to deserve eternal punishment. In this scenario, our "loving" God is much less forgiving, much more severe than our human judicial systems.
Christians have thrown that line at me so many times that I cooked up a fun albeit somewhat trollish response that never fails to get a great reaction: "Nope, I'm not going to hell, I absolutely refuse. If god wants me in hell, god is going to have to violate my free will and put me there himself. If god has no issue violating my free will to force me into hell, then he should've had no issue violating Eve's free will and stopped her eating the Fruit of Knowledge and prevented a really dumb religion from ever starting." It's a very stupid argument if you actually dismantle it, but it *always* results in some of the most comical mental gymnastics you will ever hear out of a Christian, and they will say absolutely absurd things in response to it. It's also fun pointing out how alarmed you are that they'd sooner abandon the idea of free will than they would their beloved concept of hell and eternal torture.
Its always the mental gymnastics xD. That’s a good response to that. I’ll use it in the future if it comes to it
I think you need to read the Great Divorce. It sounds like you don't really understand what you used to be preaching.
Yeah whatever they twist hell to be i don’t care either way.