Yes, it's a cardstock-weight card you peel off the membership renewal letter. But given the amount of donation request letters they send, I bet plenty of people toss their card without realizing that's what it is.
Bet they'd send you a replacement if you ask nicely 😉
What a great sibling you are. Seriously. As you say, kids deserve to just be kids for as long as possible. Adulthood is a spun-out winding road. Brava my friend. 🫶
It absolutely is, and needs to be recognized as such by the mental health community at large.
That’s why I’ve worked diligently to keep my child free from religious indoctrination, even at the expense of close family relationships.
Exposing an innocent child to the most pernicious idea humanity ever devised and honed over many centuries should be illegal.
I worked hard to keep my daughter free from indoctrination. Unbeknownst to me, BEHIND MY BACK, my mother told my daughter about hell and how if she didn’t believe in Jesus she’d go there. Took that woman five minutes to traumatize my child. Told her not to tell me. She finally told me after a year of having nightmares. I was so fucking mad.
>Told her not to tell me.
This is the telltale sign that abuse is happening. Abuse cannot stand the light of open, honest communication - it must be kept as "our little secret".
Whether it's a priest diddling a little boy, a husband beating his wife or a grandma terrorizing a little girl, the secrecy behavior is always the same.
If what you're doing to someone isn't fit for public knowledge, you shouldn't be doing it.
Omg. That’s horrible! I can’t believe she would intentionally do that to her. Sounds a lot like it was done to her so she was determined to continue the misery by doing it to others
Exactly. She actually thought she was doing the right thing. I was the bad one for not indoctrinating my daughter. I wish, so much, she could have lived to see what a smart, beautiful, kind person my daughter has grown into. She’s in a top medical school and she’s gorgeous. She’s also funny as heck. And she’s nice. I’m super proud.
I had to be a downer but she passed away years ago, not long after. I feel like religion did her a disservice and caused her a lot of mental problems. Even the church bilked her out of quite a bit of money. They convinced her to invest like 145,000 dollars that mysteriously vanished and she was never able to get back. She still had money but it stressed her out quite a bit.
Pretty sure Japan semi recently made this illegal. Something to do with telling kids they will burn in hell or something (even from parents) is considered child abuse now iirc.
Very interesting. I found: According to [asahi.com](http://asahi.com), forcing children to engage in religious activities through threats, including saying they will "go to hell", is considered mental abuse by parents. In October 2022, Japan's ministry issued a notice on how to respond to consultations on religious abuse, including specific examples and asking for cooperation with related organizations. The guidelines urge child welfare centers to take measures such as taking children under temporary custody when necessary.
It definitely left a mark on me. I don't have a ton of memories from when I was 4, but I definitely remember being deeply afraid of hell and constantly praying so I would make sure I didn't go there.
In 99% of cases I would agree with this. However, I recently learned about one scenario affecting my best friend right now which is the ONE time I might approve of religion. My friend is atheist, and her little daughter is I think 8-10 years old. Apparently she shows some heavy signs of potential violence someday, has said she wants to kill her parents, has falsely accused her step-dad of SA, is often violent with them, throws things at them. They lock up anything dangerous at night like knives and shit. She's legit afraid of her daughter murdering her or someone in the family or in general. She has said, if I ever get murdered, you should probably look at my daughter first.
This same little girl has an obsession with wanting to attend every single event on flyers that get sent home from school, including events held at churches. Normally, my friend wouldn't encourage it, but in this particular scenario, a god threatening punishment for murder might potentially actually prevent murder.
Although... at the same time, I think I would also be terrified if someday the child starts hearing voices that she thinks is god wanting her to kill someone.
Fucking terrifying all around.
My young daughter was threatened with hell by her friends parents, my revenge was to tell her friend that religion was made up and followed by those who can not think for themselves
"If you aren't smart enough, you have to rely on religion to know what is right and wrong. And then you also make the mistake that everyone else is as dumb as you are and needs religion."
I was told that all the time when I was that age. It wasn't the teachers, it was the other kids. I laughed at them and told them hell wasn't real, but they'd already been indoctrinated.
Same thing happened to my kid. He didn’t care for it, and was annoyed that the religious kids were bothering him.
It culminated in 7th with him doing the math and building a PowerPoint presentation showing that the Noah’s Ark story was physically impossible. The religious kids didn’t care for that, and thought he was bothering them.
I got a very tentative discipline-call from the school about that one. “He didn’t do anything wrong, and we’re actually kind of impressed by how much effort he put into his argument — but we’d like you to ask him to stop anyway.”
This was in Middle School.
The religious kids were borderline bullying him about his failure to accept their religion, and blaming him for their actions.
His response was to calculate the mass of water that would have to materialize out of thin air to make the Noah’s Ark myth plausible and put it in a PowerPoint that he then delivered to these kids.
The school disciplinarians strongly implied that they kinda liked the PowerPoint showdown over the other kinds of issues they deal with. Also, the religious kids had agreed the settle this via a PowerPoint showdown at one point, but decided to skip the rational debate and go straight to bullying.
The discipline call was just so that they could tell the other kids’ parents that they held my kid to the same standard (and asked him to stop being such a target) — while the other kids got in actual trouble for their bullying behaviors.
*P.S My kid appears to have interpreted their bullying-behaviors as “wow, those two religious kids sure are stupid” - which is the lesson we all should take from people who try to force their religion on others.*
>“He didn’t do anything wrong, and we’re actually kind of impressed by how much effort he put into his argument — but we’d like you to ask him to stop anyway.”
Real [Another Brick in the Wall](https://youtu.be/qs35t2xFqdU?si=TuIa8w9_To0No7F3) vibes going on in that school's leadership.
>The religious kids didn’t care for that, and thought he was bothering them.
They're so persecuted, lol. A snowflake in the Sahara would be sturdier.
I moved to Texas in 3rd grade from England in the 70’s. I’m not religious. I vividly remember southern Baptist kids telling me I’d go to hell because I’m…English. They never change.
Just happened to my daughter in 3rd grade. The three kids she plays come from church families. Shes afraid she’s going of going to hell now. Suddenly it seems like we have to explain why not to our children’s friends when it comes to religion.
Most Christians I've talked to that want to "put God back in school" don't even pretend to be fair or neutral about it; They want Christianity to explicitly be the preferred religion given special treatment above all others.
This is happening in my home state. They absolutely do not care or recognize the hypocrisy. They only stop to think about it when the satanic temple expressed glee at joining in sending their own counselors to work with the kids in schools. TBD if they will care enough to stop the change from going through.
They are pushing life wise academy here in Ohio. Which would allow kids to leave school and attend Christian study during school hours. We also have a state bill that allows vouchers for kids to go to private religious schools. No income requirement. It’s really scary how fast it has shifted here.
Yes, this is a national effort by billionaire families Koch, Devo's, Walton etc. Lifewise is spreading rapidly in Ohio and I think 10 other states so far. Parents be aware if they are trying to open one in your school district. Check out the Facebook group parents against lifewise.
You can check on their website if one is starting in your area
https://lifewise.org/about/
Hope your parents aren't Christians that'll undo your work but I agree. People need to keep their damn religions away from kids until they're 18...not that religion would survive if they did which the religious probably know.
They do undo your work, absolutely. I should have checked and made sure that my mom wasn’t saying anything to my daughter but they never saw each other since we lived overseas so it just didn’t occur to me.
It's child abuse . I'm all with you on the anti theist wagon. the whole damn god thing does damage to ability to suss out reality. It causes people to act against nature. It fosters an ingroup /outgroup dynamic. It causes guilt and fear over things one should never have guilt or fear over. It absolves people from behaving horribly. I mean according to christian doctrine Jeffry Dahmer is going to heaven because he was "saved" while he went to prison.
Tell him that christians are not afraid of islamic hell.
Tell him that christians cannot back up their claims. This is serious. It's not moral to emotionally abuse someone like they're doing.
Gloves come off. Tell him religion is bullshit. Don't even be polite about it.
Yup.
I’m just embarking on the journey of proactively debunking the religious garbage my kid will inevitably get exposed to as she grows up.
Right now she’s a happy little heathen, an unspoiled, bubbly, joyous little fountain of default human. And I’ll fight like hell to preserve that for her as long as possible, against anyone that would seek to destroy her with toxic mind poison.
Im right there with you. I moved to Europe and will never submit my son to the same hell (pun intended) I was as a kid growing up in Christian school from K5-12th grade. You and I are like that Spider-Man meme with the bus.
Spouse grew up thinking they would go to hell. Real fire-and-brimstone Baptist church. And yep you guessed it: a lifetime's worth of backbreaking work to overcome religious trauma.
Yes it is.
It was the most destructive thing done to me as a child, and the most important thing to avoid being forced into my child from religious family members.
The whole idea of heaven and hell is so bloody warped. It's almost as though it was designed to keep the sheep, I mean flock, in line and obedient to the church.
My mother firmly believed that they were invented to keep the poor & downtrodden in line. Clerics told them, "Sure, your life is terrible. Sure, you see the wicked rich and royalty living it up, getting to have everything you don't have, but one day, up you'll get much greater riches, and you'll get to see the wicked rich get their eternal judgement. You just have to follow all these rules."
Napoleon said it best.
“I don’t see in religion evidence of the mystery of the incarnation, but rather the mystery of social order. Religion associates heaven with an idea of equality that keeps the rich from being massacred by the poor.”
Your mother was spot on.
I was terrified of going to hell as a young person cuz I knew i was 'different' and by different I mean gay.
Everyone was saying that gays were Satan's army and all demons and we will burn in hell so I was suicidal, depressed, hating being alive and other humans for a very long time and I'm still traumatised as an adult.
All this was religious people weaponizing their fake God to try to get children like me to kill themselves.
Same.
It's made me the most easily triggered by religion as an adult tho. So I avoid religious people like the plague.
Also I shouted at a street preacher for harassing me on the street a few weeks ago. Like serious shouted with extreme anger, so I'm still traumatised.
Like take your fucking religion and shove it up your arse as far away from me as possible and I'll live a happy life.
Why are they "teaching" about hell in school? Is it a christian school?
Something you could do is tell him about every other "hell" or place of rest from other religions and mythologies, as well all their "heavens" or afterlives. Then make it clear humanity likes to make stories about these things but we don't have any reasons to believe in any of them. Learning about multiple religions is a way to build defense mechanisms against indoctrination.
You might try suggesting to prove the existence of god, heaven, devil and hell from these people who teach this bullshit and tell him that he doesn't need to fear anything that doesn't provably exist. Make him smart about this...
This will likely go something along the lines of him getting punished (wrongfully) for questioning faith and that's when you point out that since they were in the wrong in the first place for even bringing this into school, that you would be contacting a lawyer and some organisations to deal with the crapstorm if they don't apologise, explicitly state that such things do not exist and remove the person who introduced this mad concept. You can watch them backpedal so fast you won't be able to speak the next line.
I recently responded in the ex-Muslim sub to a guy who was made terrified of Hell from Catholic school and who was looking for a religion to join to try to avoid it. I gave him a list of Hell debunks for people who have been abused by religion in this way. OP, consider passing it on to your brother. The Holy Koolaid one may be the best to watch first, being especially accessible for a younger person.
https://youtu.be/HVVdIBINaEU - Apostate Aladdin
https://youtu.be/A0PNvs0LkCw - Holy Koolaid
https://youtu.be/dnkW5A124Eg - Matt Dillahunty
https://medium.com/@hassanradwan51/why-would-god-create-people-he-knows-will-burn-in-hell-forever-7a8c457fe274 - Hassan Radwan debunks attempts by apologists to support Hell
The following media looks at how and why Hell was invented by humans.
https://youtu.be/s25-6Fq7PM8 - Religion for Breakfast
https://youtu.be/MGvcRnlId4k - Genetically Modified Skeptic goes to Hell (just outside Jerusalem)
https://youtu.be/L_eZf33UMs8?t=746 - Bart D. Ehrman (start watching 12m 26s in)
If you get thoughts about Hell an excessive number of times, here’s help for overcoming obsessing / ruminating over thoughts: https://youtu.be/o1G4JFuLlO8 (Theramintrees)
That's, kinda the whole point isn't it? To instill fear? That's why religious grooming is so dangerous and hell is always one of the first 'lessons'
It needs to be reported.
Exactly this.
Religious grooming IS extremely dangerous, and directly imperils the mental health of children (and the later adults they become).
Nipping it in the bud is probably the most important thing to do for a kid after their basic needs are met.
South Park mocks this perfectly; yesterday, I watched the episode where the kids go to church and get terrified. One becomes obsessed with saying 53 Hail Mary's before bed. He's convinced he'll burn in a legitimate lake of fire if he doesn't, and freaks out every time he loses count. I'm so glad I escaped the religion on one side of my family
like i don't understand why in their mind it is okay to shove religion in everyone's way of life but heaven forbid if you teach kids anything about the lgbtq+ community and the struggles they have gone through... they throw a hissy fit. like they complain about people "taking away their freedom of religion" yet want to bring religion back into schools/government literally everywhere and force kids to be taught the bible and their version of it.
Ya I’m so sorry for him. We had a caregiver who was deeply catholic and managed to scare the crap out of our youngest. She never told us until she was an adult but she would have really benefited from some therapy when she was younger.
Sadly it’s not. Its the religious class in school. They even teach that you can build a new life in heaven above clouds which is disgusting to say to a 10 year old also
For comparison you could tell him about other mythologies and explain how the one he was scared with is just one of them and has no meaning outside of the fandom.
“Little Bro, let’s try looking at this in a different way. Hell isn’t actually real. It’s not a real place.”
“They say that it is, though.”
“No, it’s figurative. It’s not somewhere that exists. You can’t point it out on a map.”
*brother get a US map and points to New Jersey*
“…..OK, it’s not that you’re wrong, but…”
He's your brother. Tell him the truth. Tell him his school is just trying to scare him. And tell him, the next time they bring up hell, to respond with, "prove it exists."
Its fucked up that schools teaches religion in 2024 in western countries(I assume you are from the USA).
Its fucked up that people still believe in religion at all. I think that only 11% of us Swedes believes in god. And that number is high I think.
If its one religion I could possibly get used to, its asatro(dont know the English translation), which the Viking believed in. Just because its was cool in the series Vikings 😄
My 6 year old has been asking about hell lately since one of his school classmates has been telling him about it. The approach I'm taking is to explain that the whole idea of hell is silliness and was invented in recent history just to make people scared.
Even for those who believe in Jesus, if you take the time to do even a smidgen of research on theology, you'll find that the whole invention of hell was nothing but a cash grab. Hope that helps.
fucking disgusting. i'm so sorry to hear that 😔 it's bad enough when you have to prep for de-programming because your kid / sibling might have to hear this shit from a classmate (or exposure to the hilarious chick tracks only they take it seriously), but to find out it comes from somewhere other than their peers? ugh
I’ve been telling my kid never to believe anything she hears from her peers, just for this reason.
I remember “learning” so much utter bullshit from friends in school when I was a kid. I can’t imagine it’s gotten any better as the Christian’s have become more militant
Same. I grew up around very fundamentalist families, and it’s just my nature to not have had any ability to believe despite what I was told by my peers and the VBS or indoctrination camps I went to with my friends. I trusted my stack of National Geographics for information about the world instead, and an early memory is thinking “bullshit” having to sing Jesus Loves Me at VBS.
I’m upset that religion is a subject twice a week in here 1st grade class. It’s a normal public school, and there isn’t another option. I wrote a note at the beginning of the year about how uncomfortable it made me, but rules are rules in Germany, so they have the class. All this time I had managed to raise her without any religious belief poison.
Back in the US the playmates who were homeschooled or went to Christian schools had such glaringly bad levels of education I was shocked even in 3rd and 4th grade.
What you’re facing is extortion: “Your eternal future depends on doing as you are told.” Inflicting it on kids is particularly vile. P.S. Yes, it is illegal. There is no first amendment protection for extortion. If you report the crime to the police, they *should* take action. It might help your brother to know that *they* are the ones in the wrong, *not him*. Also it might prevent them from inflicting it on other kids. The extortion is perhaps most clearly spelled out in **Matthew 7:21**: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
Assholes. my son came home upset when he was 8. A classmate had asked why we don't go to church (small village) and he told them that his parents are atheist and don't believe in god. Little shit promptly told my son we would all roast in hell.
Was the school teaching it or was it some kids at school that told him? Some neighbor kids tried that with my kids awhile back. I shut it down super quick. So many kids are brainwashed by their families and don't know when to keep beliefs like that to themselves, mostly because they're led to fully believe it's the truth and that they're helping people by trying to "save" them. It's sad to see
Sounds traumatic, sounds like a potential lawsuit. The damage they cause with this tripe is almost immeasurable. The amount in the lawsuit should reflect that.
This is a bit of a different take, but consider framing it as a mythology that some people believe, and teaching him about *other* heavens and hells.
Norse mythology is a great place to start, because it has clearly defined good and bad afterlives, and for a 10 year old boy, viking warriors are always a plus. Next, hindu reincarnation and the concept of progressing towards (or away) from enlightenment over many lives. These are both easy enough to understand, and pretty nonthreatening. With all that as a framework, it's easier to incorporate "some people believe sky daddy will judge you on one lifetime and damn you forever if you masturbate".
IMO, the best way to defuse the fear of christian concepts is to make sure it's not elevated over other religions. "Some people like [local football team], some people like [rival football team]. That doesn't make either of them right or wrong, it's a personal choice. If they care deeply about it, they might try to convince you that their team is the best, but just because they believe that doesn't mean that you have to."
You should ask them specifically what bits of the bible they're using to teach about hell, because hell as we think of it doesn't actually exist in the bible.
The word "Hell" is derived from the old English world "Hel" or "Helle", a pagan word referring to the underworld where *all* the dead go. Helle itself is derived from the proto-Germanic noun haljō, which means "concealed place".
Before this English translation appeared in around 700AD, the bible used the Jewish term "Ghenna" which was a place in Jerusalem which was a dumping ground for waste. In it's biblical context, all it's referring to is how being a bad person is not fulfilling.
Even the bible itself says that *only* the devil, beast, and false prophet are tormented in hell day and night for eternity, in Revelation 20:10.
The fiery hell that Christians like to talk about simply refers to the lake of fire that all dead souls enter, and where sinners die their second death.
There's nothing about eternal damnation, or any of that other bullshit; it's pure fearmongering.
My 15 year old came out to me by casually admitting that he’s going to Hell. I asked why, he said because grandma said sinners go to hell, and homosexuality was a sin, and he admitted to being gay. I gave him a bear hug and told him his grandmother (my mom) is a c*nt and to never believe that about himself or of life in general. I leaned the other way- if these people need the promise of salvation to not be pieces of shit while here on earth, they’re pieces of shit.
I’m happy to say that in the year since then, I’ve tried therapy with my parents, but that failed spectacularly, so now we’re all no-contact and have honestly never been happier. It’s shocking how much negative energy hyper-religious bigots generate.
Have you tried teaching him about Hades, Valhalla, etc.? Show him that so many different mythologies (including the Christian\* mythology) have had different concepts of what happens when we die.
\*I initially wrote Judeo-Christian mythology, but Hell is an invention of Christians. The Jews have a different perspective, or possibly five different perspectives: [What is the Jewish Afterlife? - The Digital Home for Conservative Judaism (exploringjudaism.org)](https://www.exploringjudaism.org/living/lifecycles/death-and-dying/what-is-the-jewish-afterlife/)
How about taking the reverse approach.
Teach him the story and concept of what people believe in.
With holding information is not how you "avoid the problem"
Teach him, and let him go through the motions of figuring it out.
My 5 year old began picking up bits and pieces from others kids and adults hearing things.
He's been fascinated with horror, afterlife, life and death recently.
So my wife and I devised a way to convey these stories to him, so they he doesn't existentially worryp. He has a basic understanding and doesn't twiddle his thumbs overthinking a subject without a direction to approach it from
So if you are worried that he will take away the wrong ideas and don't want him to follow that path, he's still going to need a basic outline on why this is, why people believe it, and why you choose not to.
You know, even tho I appreciate the “magic” of allowing your kids to believe in things like the Easter bunny, Santa Claus or even the Tooth Fairy, I think allowing them to believe in imaginary beings allows them to be brainwashed into also believing religious mysticism. I’m not saying it’s always a direct correlation but if a kid believes in something he never sees because all the adults and media etc tell him it’s real, even though magic is NOT seen anywhere in the real world surrounding us each day, how much harder is it to believe in some mystical realm like heaven or hell, or god/Satan?
Just my soapbox rant of the day, but sorry for your lil bro, must’ve been a hard conversation.
I mean there is a reason the Word hell is censored in a Lot of Cartoons since the 90s.
Heck, dont some religious nuts consider it a curse word? Same as damned? I Wonder why? Maybe cause the concept is incredible fucked Up?
Serious, give your Kid permission to say damn and hell as curse words. They where the ones that teached it to him after all.
Good idea. Using it flippantly robs it of any power like the religionists want it to have.
Mine says all the swear words, and she’s in kindergarten.
She also knows when to say them and not get in trouble.
many of those people are really fucked up. you know, in german television there has been a well known pastor who argued: if you do not believe in god, say "I condemn the souls of my children".
he used the normal fear of people for your own children to pressurize them into his religion.
in germany, the teach you to become a pastor, but it is not about human and religious values, they teach you about speech and argumentation.
I would help see the ‘bullshit’ of it, instead of only telling him that it’s not real. I would ask questions like; if you live your life like a good person, but just don’t believe in god, were do you think we go? Stuff like that. Help with his critical thinking. If he can see past the bullshit, or feels comfortable questioning it with you, they’ll never be able to groom him into their delulu-world
I’d raise hell with his teacher, and the principal and ensure that they know this is absolutely unacceptable and to keep their vile fictions to themselves. Oh I would be absolutely livid also
Teaching religion in a public school is a violation of first amendment rights, proving children do not have them or the people doing that do not believe in freedom. Probably both. Even if it's a private school, even if the school made sure to operate entirely within the law.
Hearing that hell is not real from his older brother at ten years old will hopefully be huge for him. I had to struggle with that in my 30’s when my brain wouldn’t let me deny my atheism anymore and it’s very traumatic. I wish I had someone like you to tell me that when I was 10.
I feel you I struggle with deeply hidden trauma. I noticed this when I got a paranoia episode after seeing a poorly made 3d animation representing hell with a creepy background music. This state of fear lasted for like a week or more where I felt like some demon would attack me from behind to send me there. I usually handle horror stuff well, but not this shit.
I wasn't raised in an extreme fundamentalist Christian family, but I used to believe everything and take things too literally back when I was a kid. My ability to imagine things in detail based on what I watched backfired badly during this episode of paranoia.
Was that at a *publicly funded* school? If so, then shame on them!
If there's actual religious material being distributed as well, then a lawyer needs to get involved...
“Really? Where is hell? Can you point to it on the map? Can someone take a picture and show me? How does one go to hell? What’s the mechanism for going to hell? Do I take a plane? Teleport? How does that work?”
whatever you believe in will be. You are the creater of your reality. Evertything is mind an idea. You create whatever you believe. If you believe you go to hell after death you will go, if you believe you will go to LALA Land you will go.
Sit your brother down for a "Marvel Movie Marathon" and tell him, "Look bro, this is obviously ALL make believe, correct?..." Brother will say "yes" and then inform him that "People did that same thing back in the day with books and talking... it's "all a bullshit story about "zombie saviour" and "newly wedded wife did not want to get the ##it beat out of her for being pregnant already" and it's just a melodrama to "get people to conform to laws"
There is no Hell, it's all made up. Even Heaven.
Welcome to the "void you don't remember before birth" and the "void you'll not be aware of after death"
That's it full stop, live your life and be good, but don't be a sucker.
When I was 8, I was told that if I listened to “secular music” it “was like a fishhook that will drag [you] into hell”.
That shit fucked me up for years, and is a main reason I’m not religious at all and never will be. Fuck that this. If you need to scare people via made up bullshit to believe your fantasies, they probably aren’t valid.
Exactly! I realized this a long time ago, all religions have one thing in common and that’s fear and hell.
Its all fantasy made up shit used to control people.
I like this quote a lot by Seneca
- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
I need to know exactly where this took place if it's in the U.S. Otherwise, I'll have to call bullshit on this. My wife and I have 17 grandkids and 9 great grandkids in 3 different states and not one of them has been taught about hell.
Show him the desert (in person or in movies) and the arctic/antarctic and explain that people can exist in very harsh conditions. Hell would just be a nightmare-mode difficulty for humanity, but we would eventually win it out, just see literally any game ever, so hell wouldn't be a threat even if it existed.
I'm a teacher and I'd love more context. Elementary aged children especially misinterpret things or miscommunicate.
Was it just a lesson on major religions? Like anthropology? Because most states start including that in the curriculum in 4th or 5th grade and I see zero problems with it as an atheist.
Is that a private school? If it's a public school, funded by taxpayer dollars, what you described is a blatant violation of the First Amendment. I'd seek clarification on the lesson or lesson plan, what the teacher said, etc. If it's a general discussion about the history of religions in general, that's usually considered ok. If it's active proselytizing, get the FFRF involved. If it's a private school, the law tends to be on their side.
He's ten, so keep it simple. Explain that Jesus is like an adult version of Santa Claus, be good - OR ELSE! It's just a way to keep folks 'in line' and gets them money
my brother believed it all and made me his confirmation sponsor in high school. so what i did was sit him down and tell him he didn't have to be catholic or anything else, he just had to get confirmed to shut mom up. i think he's still catholic in his 30's, but i don't really want to know. anyway, it's cool that you have the opportunity to tell your brother it isn't real this early on.
Don't be against teaching one ideology, be for teaching all ideology in a critical objective and theoretical way. Hopefully religion in general is on its way out, might take a hundred years or so, religion and lack of understanding of it are a tinder box always have been. The majority of wars are in someway faith based, religion is a millstone around humanities neck. It's stops us from moving forward as a society and emphasises our inherent differences
My only question/concern was it actually taught in class? (Like what was the pretext of the teacher talking about religion and hell) Or was it something other kids on the playground were talking about?
If you are in the US and a teacher brought this up and it's a public school, there are definitely avenue's you can explore, like contacting FFRF to have them also look into this.
If it makes you feel any better, I too worried about hell at this age. I quickly became an atheist within like a year. This might work out for the best.
You could be against doing that to your brother and also be a pro-theist atheist. Have you ever had a Christian come up to you and ask something like “if you don’t believe in god then what’s stopping you from killing everybody?” That’s a bona fide sociopath and the only thing stopping him from harming others is sky daddy. Violent sociopaths exist in society and religion helps keep them in check.
i remember reading those short story pamphlets as a kid. and i was crying about my dad going to hell because he was an atheist.. i would cry at night, saying to bless every single person in my life because i was afraid they would die if i didn't. lots of religious ocd as a kid.
religion has the capacity to be so harmful which people don't want to realize.
My entire childhood, we were told by the people at the church our mother took us to, that we were sinners and we were going to hell. Later, when I decided to stop going to church, I no longer worry about going to hell because it isn't shoved down my throat.
Make him a list of things that are made up: fairies, vampires and zombies, unobtainium and kryptonite, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, Valhalla, heaven and hell, ...cooties! Show him lots and lots of examples of things people have just invented for various reasons. It should help reassure him that hell is just one among a very long list of such imaginary things.
Isnt there an organization you can contact for this stuff? Seen someone post about it before
Freedom from religion foundation https://ffrf.org/
Ty so much ☺️
Card-carrying member of ffrf here
frfr
rffr
Do they actually give cards? I'm a paid member and don't recall getting a card. I do love my TST card though. :)
Yes, it's a cardstock-weight card you peel off the membership renewal letter. But given the amount of donation request letters they send, I bet plenty of people toss their card without realizing that's what it is. Bet they'd send you a replacement if you ask nicely 😉
What a great sibling you are. Seriously. As you say, kids deserve to just be kids for as long as possible. Adulthood is a spun-out winding road. Brava my friend. 🫶
Depends on the country, probably. It might be legal where OP is from.
Also depends on the school. A lot of private schools in America are run by religious organizations.
Private schools in the US can teach this all they want.
I completely agree. Seriously conveying the idea of hell to child is child abuse.
It absolutely is, and needs to be recognized as such by the mental health community at large. That’s why I’ve worked diligently to keep my child free from religious indoctrination, even at the expense of close family relationships. Exposing an innocent child to the most pernicious idea humanity ever devised and honed over many centuries should be illegal.
I worked hard to keep my daughter free from indoctrination. Unbeknownst to me, BEHIND MY BACK, my mother told my daughter about hell and how if she didn’t believe in Jesus she’d go there. Took that woman five minutes to traumatize my child. Told her not to tell me. She finally told me after a year of having nightmares. I was so fucking mad.
That’s disgusting truly. Children shouldn’t be thinking about any if that.
When I was growing up I was terrified of hell. Scared all the time. I wasn’t going to do that to her.
Same here.
Did you cut contact? Has your kid worked through the trauma?
Yes shes good. 23 and in med school. She gets anxious sometimes but I a think that’s just a family thing.
>Told her not to tell me. This is the telltale sign that abuse is happening. Abuse cannot stand the light of open, honest communication - it must be kept as "our little secret". Whether it's a priest diddling a little boy, a husband beating his wife or a grandma terrorizing a little girl, the secrecy behavior is always the same. If what you're doing to someone isn't fit for public knowledge, you shouldn't be doing it.
Omg. That’s horrible! I can’t believe she would intentionally do that to her. Sounds a lot like it was done to her so she was determined to continue the misery by doing it to others
Exactly. She actually thought she was doing the right thing. I was the bad one for not indoctrinating my daughter. I wish, so much, she could have lived to see what a smart, beautiful, kind person my daughter has grown into. She’s in a top medical school and she’s gorgeous. She’s also funny as heck. And she’s nice. I’m super proud.
I hope she goes to hell for her sneaky lies. 😜
I had to be a downer but she passed away years ago, not long after. I feel like religion did her a disservice and caused her a lot of mental problems. Even the church bilked her out of quite a bit of money. They convinced her to invest like 145,000 dollars that mysteriously vanished and she was never able to get back. She still had money but it stressed her out quite a bit.
convincing children to keep secrets is an Abuser 101 move. please don’t let your child near this person ideally ever - certainly never alone.
I wish someone would be jailed for that. It is child abuse.
Pretty sure Japan semi recently made this illegal. Something to do with telling kids they will burn in hell or something (even from parents) is considered child abuse now iirc.
Very interesting. I found: According to [asahi.com](http://asahi.com), forcing children to engage in religious activities through threats, including saying they will "go to hell", is considered mental abuse by parents. In October 2022, Japan's ministry issued a notice on how to respond to consultations on religious abuse, including specific examples and asking for cooperation with related organizations. The guidelines urge child welfare centers to take measures such as taking children under temporary custody when necessary.
It definitely left a mark on me. I don't have a ton of memories from when I was 4, but I definitely remember being deeply afraid of hell and constantly praying so I would make sure I didn't go there.
In 99% of cases I would agree with this. However, I recently learned about one scenario affecting my best friend right now which is the ONE time I might approve of religion. My friend is atheist, and her little daughter is I think 8-10 years old. Apparently she shows some heavy signs of potential violence someday, has said she wants to kill her parents, has falsely accused her step-dad of SA, is often violent with them, throws things at them. They lock up anything dangerous at night like knives and shit. She's legit afraid of her daughter murdering her or someone in the family or in general. She has said, if I ever get murdered, you should probably look at my daughter first. This same little girl has an obsession with wanting to attend every single event on flyers that get sent home from school, including events held at churches. Normally, my friend wouldn't encourage it, but in this particular scenario, a god threatening punishment for murder might potentially actually prevent murder. Although... at the same time, I think I would also be terrified if someday the child starts hearing voices that she thinks is god wanting her to kill someone. Fucking terrifying all around.
That's fucked up. Some kid told my daughter she was going to hell when she (my daughter) was in 2nd grade.
My young daughter was threatened with hell by her friends parents, my revenge was to tell her friend that religion was made up and followed by those who can not think for themselves
"If you aren't smart enough, you have to rely on religion to know what is right and wrong. And then you also make the mistake that everyone else is as dumb as you are and needs religion."
What a great saying. What a shame that I now must steal it.
Love that!
I was told that all the time when I was that age. It wasn't the teachers, it was the other kids. I laughed at them and told them hell wasn't real, but they'd already been indoctrinated.
So sad for any kid to believe that shit.
Well, if she got to the third grade without going to hell, she made it!
Same thing happened to my kid. He didn’t care for it, and was annoyed that the religious kids were bothering him. It culminated in 7th with him doing the math and building a PowerPoint presentation showing that the Noah’s Ark story was physically impossible. The religious kids didn’t care for that, and thought he was bothering them. I got a very tentative discipline-call from the school about that one. “He didn’t do anything wrong, and we’re actually kind of impressed by how much effort he put into his argument — but we’d like you to ask him to stop anyway.”
I hope you told them to fuck off
This was in Middle School. The religious kids were borderline bullying him about his failure to accept their religion, and blaming him for their actions. His response was to calculate the mass of water that would have to materialize out of thin air to make the Noah’s Ark myth plausible and put it in a PowerPoint that he then delivered to these kids. The school disciplinarians strongly implied that they kinda liked the PowerPoint showdown over the other kinds of issues they deal with. Also, the religious kids had agreed the settle this via a PowerPoint showdown at one point, but decided to skip the rational debate and go straight to bullying. The discipline call was just so that they could tell the other kids’ parents that they held my kid to the same standard (and asked him to stop being such a target) — while the other kids got in actual trouble for their bullying behaviors. *P.S My kid appears to have interpreted their bullying-behaviors as “wow, those two religious kids sure are stupid” - which is the lesson we all should take from people who try to force their religion on others.*
Yes. Stupid but indoctrinated. Still sad. I was one. Bullying is holy, I guess.
>“He didn’t do anything wrong, and we’re actually kind of impressed by how much effort he put into his argument — but we’d like you to ask him to stop anyway.” Real [Another Brick in the Wall](https://youtu.be/qs35t2xFqdU?si=TuIa8w9_To0No7F3) vibes going on in that school's leadership. >The religious kids didn’t care for that, and thought he was bothering them. They're so persecuted, lol. A snowflake in the Sahara would be sturdier.
My eldest would have just made another: "The Psychology of Bullying Behavior" or something.
I moved to Texas in 3rd grade from England in the 70’s. I’m not religious. I vividly remember southern Baptist kids telling me I’d go to hell because I’m…English. They never change.
Just happened to my daughter in 3rd grade. The three kids she plays come from church families. Shes afraid she’s going of going to hell now. Suddenly it seems like we have to explain why not to our children’s friends when it comes to religion.
That’s disgusting
i am most definitely anti-indoctrination and everyone else should be too.
100%
Are they teaching that in a public school in the USA? That's against the law.
Red states are changing laws to put clergy in school as "councellors"
Do they understand the irony when they criticise Madrasas as "producing terrorists"?
If they criticise madrasahs it’s only out of envy for what they can inflict on their pupils.
Most Christians I've talked to that want to "put God back in school" don't even pretend to be fair or neutral about it; They want Christianity to explicitly be the preferred religion given special treatment above all others.
This is happening in my home state. They absolutely do not care or recognize the hypocrisy. They only stop to think about it when the satanic temple expressed glee at joining in sending their own counselors to work with the kids in schools. TBD if they will care enough to stop the change from going through.
And the satanic temple will be putting there people in those schools too.
Florida has chaplains now, doesn't it?
They are pushing life wise academy here in Ohio. Which would allow kids to leave school and attend Christian study during school hours. We also have a state bill that allows vouchers for kids to go to private religious schools. No income requirement. It’s really scary how fast it has shifted here.
Yes, this is a national effort by billionaire families Koch, Devo's, Walton etc. Lifewise is spreading rapidly in Ohio and I think 10 other states so far. Parents be aware if they are trying to open one in your school district. Check out the Facebook group parents against lifewise. You can check on their website if one is starting in your area https://lifewise.org/about/
We are living in the New Gilded Age
This voucher shit happened in Iowa too and the religious schools immediately upped tuition by the voucher amount.
Like anyone in christo-fascist america gives a shit.
Have him play Doom so he can build confidence that if he ever faced demons in hell that he can beat them and escape.
Or any jrpgs Like maybe persona 5 or the original Final Fantasy 7. To See that its Not nessercary the demons who are the Bad ones.
Time to get the kid into DnD and beat up some fiends.
Hahaha
That’s a nice way really xD
Hope your parents aren't Christians that'll undo your work but I agree. People need to keep their damn religions away from kids until they're 18...not that religion would survive if they did which the religious probably know.
Get them while they are young; the language of the religious abuser.
Or the most vulnerable
Also pedophiles, but Same people for the most part.
Religious trauma is a thing, and some therapists specialize in it.
I am going to a therapist that is all about religious trauma.
They do undo your work, absolutely. I should have checked and made sure that my mom wasn’t saying anything to my daughter but they never saw each other since we lived overseas so it just didn’t occur to me.
It's child abuse . I'm all with you on the anti theist wagon. the whole damn god thing does damage to ability to suss out reality. It causes people to act against nature. It fosters an ingroup /outgroup dynamic. It causes guilt and fear over things one should never have guilt or fear over. It absolves people from behaving horribly. I mean according to christian doctrine Jeffry Dahmer is going to heaven because he was "saved" while he went to prison.
Tell him that christians are not afraid of islamic hell. Tell him that christians cannot back up their claims. This is serious. It's not moral to emotionally abuse someone like they're doing. Gloves come off. Tell him religion is bullshit. Don't even be polite about it.
Yup. I’m just embarking on the journey of proactively debunking the religious garbage my kid will inevitably get exposed to as she grows up. Right now she’s a happy little heathen, an unspoiled, bubbly, joyous little fountain of default human. And I’ll fight like hell to preserve that for her as long as possible, against anyone that would seek to destroy her with toxic mind poison.
GOOD! Do everything you can. It's immoral to destroy the happiness and well being of another person. These god warriors can go fuck themselves.
Im right there with you. I moved to Europe and will never submit my son to the same hell (pun intended) I was as a kid growing up in Christian school from K5-12th grade. You and I are like that Spider-Man meme with the bus.
10 years is old enough to understand that some people believe weird shit
That’s why i told him to not believe these nutcases
Right-wingers don't know anything but how to groom children for all manner of things!
Spouse grew up thinking they would go to hell. Real fire-and-brimstone Baptist church. And yep you guessed it: a lifetime's worth of backbreaking work to overcome religious trauma.
Yes it is. It was the most destructive thing done to me as a child, and the most important thing to avoid being forced into my child from religious family members.
The whole idea of heaven and hell is so bloody warped. It's almost as though it was designed to keep the sheep, I mean flock, in line and obedient to the church.
That is exactly what it is for. Heaven is the carrot and hell is the stick. This is how they keep the lemmings of god in line.
My mother firmly believed that they were invented to keep the poor & downtrodden in line. Clerics told them, "Sure, your life is terrible. Sure, you see the wicked rich and royalty living it up, getting to have everything you don't have, but one day, up you'll get much greater riches, and you'll get to see the wicked rich get their eternal judgement. You just have to follow all these rules."
Napoleon said it best. “I don’t see in religion evidence of the mystery of the incarnation, but rather the mystery of social order. Religion associates heaven with an idea of equality that keeps the rich from being massacred by the poor.” Your mother was spot on.
I was terrified of going to hell as a young person cuz I knew i was 'different' and by different I mean gay. Everyone was saying that gays were Satan's army and all demons and we will burn in hell so I was suicidal, depressed, hating being alive and other humans for a very long time and I'm still traumatised as an adult. All this was religious people weaponizing their fake God to try to get children like me to kill themselves.
This is horrible. I’m glad you didn’t buy in.
Same. It's made me the most easily triggered by religion as an adult tho. So I avoid religious people like the plague. Also I shouted at a street preacher for harassing me on the street a few weeks ago. Like serious shouted with extreme anger, so I'm still traumatised. Like take your fucking religion and shove it up your arse as far away from me as possible and I'll live a happy life.
Was this at a private or public school?
Public
Why are they "teaching" about hell in school? Is it a christian school? Something you could do is tell him about every other "hell" or place of rest from other religions and mythologies, as well all their "heavens" or afterlives. Then make it clear humanity likes to make stories about these things but we don't have any reasons to believe in any of them. Learning about multiple religions is a way to build defense mechanisms against indoctrination.
Sorry, they taught it? Does your brother go to a religious school? What was the context of the lesson where they taught the concept of "Hell"?
You might try suggesting to prove the existence of god, heaven, devil and hell from these people who teach this bullshit and tell him that he doesn't need to fear anything that doesn't provably exist. Make him smart about this... This will likely go something along the lines of him getting punished (wrongfully) for questioning faith and that's when you point out that since they were in the wrong in the first place for even bringing this into school, that you would be contacting a lawyer and some organisations to deal with the crapstorm if they don't apologise, explicitly state that such things do not exist and remove the person who introduced this mad concept. You can watch them backpedal so fast you won't be able to speak the next line.
I recently responded in the ex-Muslim sub to a guy who was made terrified of Hell from Catholic school and who was looking for a religion to join to try to avoid it. I gave him a list of Hell debunks for people who have been abused by religion in this way. OP, consider passing it on to your brother. The Holy Koolaid one may be the best to watch first, being especially accessible for a younger person. https://youtu.be/HVVdIBINaEU - Apostate Aladdin https://youtu.be/A0PNvs0LkCw - Holy Koolaid https://youtu.be/dnkW5A124Eg - Matt Dillahunty https://medium.com/@hassanradwan51/why-would-god-create-people-he-knows-will-burn-in-hell-forever-7a8c457fe274 - Hassan Radwan debunks attempts by apologists to support Hell The following media looks at how and why Hell was invented by humans. https://youtu.be/s25-6Fq7PM8 - Religion for Breakfast https://youtu.be/MGvcRnlId4k - Genetically Modified Skeptic goes to Hell (just outside Jerusalem) https://youtu.be/L_eZf33UMs8?t=746 - Bart D. Ehrman (start watching 12m 26s in) If you get thoughts about Hell an excessive number of times, here’s help for overcoming obsessing / ruminating over thoughts: https://youtu.be/o1G4JFuLlO8 (Theramintrees)
Saved. Thanks for this!
Thank you! I will look into it!
Religion is the worse human invention by a long way
I wonder how many people suffer from religion induced psychosis because of this evil mind virus spread by cultists with "good intentions"?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
That's, kinda the whole point isn't it? To instill fear? That's why religious grooming is so dangerous and hell is always one of the first 'lessons' It needs to be reported.
Exactly this. Religious grooming IS extremely dangerous, and directly imperils the mental health of children (and the later adults they become). Nipping it in the bud is probably the most important thing to do for a kid after their basic needs are met.
South Park mocks this perfectly; yesterday, I watched the episode where the kids go to church and get terrified. One becomes obsessed with saying 53 Hail Mary's before bed. He's convinced he'll burn in a legitimate lake of fire if he doesn't, and freaks out every time he loses count. I'm so glad I escaped the religion on one side of my family
What school? Private or public?
like i don't understand why in their mind it is okay to shove religion in everyone's way of life but heaven forbid if you teach kids anything about the lgbtq+ community and the struggles they have gone through... they throw a hissy fit. like they complain about people "taking away their freedom of religion" yet want to bring religion back into schools/government literally everywhere and force kids to be taught the bible and their version of it.
To them, "religious freedom" is them having the freedom to inflict their religion on everyone else.
Ya I’m so sorry for him. We had a caregiver who was deeply catholic and managed to scare the crap out of our youngest. She never told us until she was an adult but she would have really benefited from some therapy when she was younger.
Oof… That’s a nightmare scenario right there. Quite literally.
Yes, hell exists, it is other people
This should be illegal, this is nothing but abuse.
Sadly it’s not. Its the religious class in school. They even teach that you can build a new life in heaven above clouds which is disgusting to say to a 10 year old also
Buy him an Encyclopedias of World Mythology. 💎
For comparison you could tell him about other mythologies and explain how the one he was scared with is just one of them and has no meaning outside of the fandom.
“Little Bro, let’s try looking at this in a different way. Hell isn’t actually real. It’s not a real place.” “They say that it is, though.” “No, it’s figurative. It’s not somewhere that exists. You can’t point it out on a map.” *brother get a US map and points to New Jersey* “…..OK, it’s not that you’re wrong, but…”
He's your brother. Tell him the truth. Tell him his school is just trying to scare him. And tell him, the next time they bring up hell, to respond with, "prove it exists."
No one knows what happens after death? No, we know pretty damn well what happens - you stop existing.
Yeah, i meant that in like no one came back to say if there is heaven or hell so he shouldn’t worry about it
Its fucked up that schools teaches religion in 2024 in western countries(I assume you are from the USA). Its fucked up that people still believe in religion at all. I think that only 11% of us Swedes believes in god. And that number is high I think. If its one religion I could possibly get used to, its asatro(dont know the English translation), which the Viking believed in. Just because its was cool in the series Vikings 😄
My 6 year old has been asking about hell lately since one of his school classmates has been telling him about it. The approach I'm taking is to explain that the whole idea of hell is silliness and was invented in recent history just to make people scared. Even for those who believe in Jesus, if you take the time to do even a smidgen of research on theology, you'll find that the whole invention of hell was nothing but a cash grab. Hope that helps.
fucking disgusting. i'm so sorry to hear that 😔 it's bad enough when you have to prep for de-programming because your kid / sibling might have to hear this shit from a classmate (or exposure to the hilarious chick tracks only they take it seriously), but to find out it comes from somewhere other than their peers? ugh
I’ve been telling my kid never to believe anything she hears from her peers, just for this reason. I remember “learning” so much utter bullshit from friends in school when I was a kid. I can’t imagine it’s gotten any better as the Christian’s have become more militant
Same. I grew up around very fundamentalist families, and it’s just my nature to not have had any ability to believe despite what I was told by my peers and the VBS or indoctrination camps I went to with my friends. I trusted my stack of National Geographics for information about the world instead, and an early memory is thinking “bullshit” having to sing Jesus Loves Me at VBS. I’m upset that religion is a subject twice a week in here 1st grade class. It’s a normal public school, and there isn’t another option. I wrote a note at the beginning of the year about how uncomfortable it made me, but rules are rules in Germany, so they have the class. All this time I had managed to raise her without any religious belief poison. Back in the US the playmates who were homeschooled or went to Christian schools had such glaringly bad levels of education I was shocked even in 3rd and 4th grade.
What you’re facing is extortion: “Your eternal future depends on doing as you are told.” Inflicting it on kids is particularly vile. P.S. Yes, it is illegal. There is no first amendment protection for extortion. If you report the crime to the police, they *should* take action. It might help your brother to know that *they* are the ones in the wrong, *not him*. Also it might prevent them from inflicting it on other kids. The extortion is perhaps most clearly spelled out in **Matthew 7:21**: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
Assholes. my son came home upset when he was 8. A classmate had asked why we don't go to church (small village) and he told them that his parents are atheist and don't believe in god. Little shit promptly told my son we would all roast in hell.
Disgusting. That child didn’t know any better tho it’s what their parents taught them. That’s why im against teaching children religion.
Tell them bad parents and teachers made up hell to get kids to do their chores and homework.
Some boy told my niece she was going to hell, her reply 'with bells and whistles on dragging you with me'. I love that girl 🤣
Tell him they are trying to get his money.
Child is told about hell Panics, obviously doesn't want to go Becomes either a ""good christian"", or a priest/whatever Spreads it Repeat I hate it
Had full blown panic attack when church taught me about death at 10
Truly disgusting
“They teach it in school” What kind of school? A public school? A religious school?
All my devil worshipping atheist friends say that when we all go to hell, at least we will be with all our friends.
Actually many people know what happens after we die, and they all say Hell doesn't exist.
Was the school teaching it or was it some kids at school that told him? Some neighbor kids tried that with my kids awhile back. I shut it down super quick. So many kids are brainwashed by their families and don't know when to keep beliefs like that to themselves, mostly because they're led to fully believe it's the truth and that they're helping people by trying to "save" them. It's sad to see
Sounds traumatic, sounds like a potential lawsuit. The damage they cause with this tripe is almost immeasurable. The amount in the lawsuit should reflect that.
This is a bit of a different take, but consider framing it as a mythology that some people believe, and teaching him about *other* heavens and hells. Norse mythology is a great place to start, because it has clearly defined good and bad afterlives, and for a 10 year old boy, viking warriors are always a plus. Next, hindu reincarnation and the concept of progressing towards (or away) from enlightenment over many lives. These are both easy enough to understand, and pretty nonthreatening. With all that as a framework, it's easier to incorporate "some people believe sky daddy will judge you on one lifetime and damn you forever if you masturbate". IMO, the best way to defuse the fear of christian concepts is to make sure it's not elevated over other religions. "Some people like [local football team], some people like [rival football team]. That doesn't make either of them right or wrong, it's a personal choice. If they care deeply about it, they might try to convince you that their team is the best, but just because they believe that doesn't mean that you have to."
Jesus, I went to catholic school in Canada and they didn’t even teach us that shit. Pretty sure half of my teachers were actually atheists.
You should ask them specifically what bits of the bible they're using to teach about hell, because hell as we think of it doesn't actually exist in the bible. The word "Hell" is derived from the old English world "Hel" or "Helle", a pagan word referring to the underworld where *all* the dead go. Helle itself is derived from the proto-Germanic noun haljō, which means "concealed place". Before this English translation appeared in around 700AD, the bible used the Jewish term "Ghenna" which was a place in Jerusalem which was a dumping ground for waste. In it's biblical context, all it's referring to is how being a bad person is not fulfilling. Even the bible itself says that *only* the devil, beast, and false prophet are tormented in hell day and night for eternity, in Revelation 20:10. The fiery hell that Christians like to talk about simply refers to the lake of fire that all dead souls enter, and where sinners die their second death. There's nothing about eternal damnation, or any of that other bullshit; it's pure fearmongering.
Fear is a powerful emotion and tool. The fearful are easy to control. That's the whole point. And I absolutely loath manipulation.
100%. That’s my point also that fear is the most powerful emotion and tgey use it to control you.
My 15 year old came out to me by casually admitting that he’s going to Hell. I asked why, he said because grandma said sinners go to hell, and homosexuality was a sin, and he admitted to being gay. I gave him a bear hug and told him his grandmother (my mom) is a c*nt and to never believe that about himself or of life in general. I leaned the other way- if these people need the promise of salvation to not be pieces of shit while here on earth, they’re pieces of shit. I’m happy to say that in the year since then, I’ve tried therapy with my parents, but that failed spectacularly, so now we’re all no-contact and have honestly never been happier. It’s shocking how much negative energy hyper-religious bigots generate.
...we do know what happens after death. Your brain stops, and you are no longer alive. There is nothing after that. It's a one or a zero, on or off.
Have you tried teaching him about Hades, Valhalla, etc.? Show him that so many different mythologies (including the Christian\* mythology) have had different concepts of what happens when we die. \*I initially wrote Judeo-Christian mythology, but Hell is an invention of Christians. The Jews have a different perspective, or possibly five different perspectives: [What is the Jewish Afterlife? - The Digital Home for Conservative Judaism (exploringjudaism.org)](https://www.exploringjudaism.org/living/lifecycles/death-and-dying/what-is-the-jewish-afterlife/)
How about taking the reverse approach. Teach him the story and concept of what people believe in. With holding information is not how you "avoid the problem" Teach him, and let him go through the motions of figuring it out. My 5 year old began picking up bits and pieces from others kids and adults hearing things. He's been fascinated with horror, afterlife, life and death recently. So my wife and I devised a way to convey these stories to him, so they he doesn't existentially worryp. He has a basic understanding and doesn't twiddle his thumbs overthinking a subject without a direction to approach it from So if you are worried that he will take away the wrong ideas and don't want him to follow that path, he's still going to need a basic outline on why this is, why people believe it, and why you choose not to.
Recoveringfromrelion.com
Is this a public school in the United States? If so, I guess you are in Louisiana or Alabama? If you are in the states, contact the ACLU.
You know, even tho I appreciate the “magic” of allowing your kids to believe in things like the Easter bunny, Santa Claus or even the Tooth Fairy, I think allowing them to believe in imaginary beings allows them to be brainwashed into also believing religious mysticism. I’m not saying it’s always a direct correlation but if a kid believes in something he never sees because all the adults and media etc tell him it’s real, even though magic is NOT seen anywhere in the real world surrounding us each day, how much harder is it to believe in some mystical realm like heaven or hell, or god/Satan? Just my soapbox rant of the day, but sorry for your lil bro, must’ve been a hard conversation.
Show Him The Real Hell Of 3rd World, Warzones And Poor Places Near.
Nuke em’
*sigh* Illogical buzzkills...
I mean there is a reason the Word hell is censored in a Lot of Cartoons since the 90s. Heck, dont some religious nuts consider it a curse word? Same as damned? I Wonder why? Maybe cause the concept is incredible fucked Up? Serious, give your Kid permission to say damn and hell as curse words. They where the ones that teached it to him after all.
Good idea. Using it flippantly robs it of any power like the religionists want it to have. Mine says all the swear words, and she’s in kindergarten. She also knows when to say them and not get in trouble.
What type of school?
many of those people are really fucked up. you know, in german television there has been a well known pastor who argued: if you do not believe in god, say "I condemn the souls of my children". he used the normal fear of people for your own children to pressurize them into his religion. in germany, the teach you to become a pastor, but it is not about human and religious values, they teach you about speech and argumentation.
I would help see the ‘bullshit’ of it, instead of only telling him that it’s not real. I would ask questions like; if you live your life like a good person, but just don’t believe in god, were do you think we go? Stuff like that. Help with his critical thinking. If he can see past the bullshit, or feels comfortable questioning it with you, they’ll never be able to groom him into their delulu-world
Have a hell party! A 10 year old will love it!
The same was done to me as a kid. I remember being convinced I was doomed when I asked to be ‘saved’.
related https://sh.reddit.com/r/aaaaaatheismmmmmmmmmm/comments/m2ih7/saga_of_the_atheist_2nd_grader/
I’d raise hell with his teacher, and the principal and ensure that they know this is absolutely unacceptable and to keep their vile fictions to themselves. Oh I would be absolutely livid also
Teaching religion in a public school is a violation of first amendment rights, proving children do not have them or the people doing that do not believe in freedom. Probably both. Even if it's a private school, even if the school made sure to operate entirely within the law.
I can’t wait for humanity to evolve
Hearing that hell is not real from his older brother at ten years old will hopefully be huge for him. I had to struggle with that in my 30’s when my brain wouldn’t let me deny my atheism anymore and it’s very traumatic. I wish I had someone like you to tell me that when I was 10.
I feel you I struggle with deeply hidden trauma. I noticed this when I got a paranoia episode after seeing a poorly made 3d animation representing hell with a creepy background music. This state of fear lasted for like a week or more where I felt like some demon would attack me from behind to send me there. I usually handle horror stuff well, but not this shit. I wasn't raised in an extreme fundamentalist Christian family, but I used to believe everything and take things too literally back when I was a kid. My ability to imagine things in detail based on what I watched backfired badly during this episode of paranoia.
Yeah thats what happens when you teach kids about these things. Im sorry that happened to you.
Was that at a *publicly funded* school? If so, then shame on them! If there's actual religious material being distributed as well, then a lawyer needs to get involved...
If this is a public school in the U.S., please report it here: https://ffrf.org/legal/report-church-state/ It's free and anonymous.
Its not us we live in austria.
“Really? Where is hell? Can you point to it on the map? Can someone take a picture and show me? How does one go to hell? What’s the mechanism for going to hell? Do I take a plane? Teleport? How does that work?”
whatever you believe in will be. You are the creater of your reality. Evertything is mind an idea. You create whatever you believe. If you believe you go to hell after death you will go, if you believe you will go to LALA Land you will go.
Sit your brother down for a "Marvel Movie Marathon" and tell him, "Look bro, this is obviously ALL make believe, correct?..." Brother will say "yes" and then inform him that "People did that same thing back in the day with books and talking... it's "all a bullshit story about "zombie saviour" and "newly wedded wife did not want to get the ##it beat out of her for being pregnant already" and it's just a melodrama to "get people to conform to laws" There is no Hell, it's all made up. Even Heaven. Welcome to the "void you don't remember before birth" and the "void you'll not be aware of after death" That's it full stop, live your life and be good, but don't be a sucker.
When I was 8, I was told that if I listened to “secular music” it “was like a fishhook that will drag [you] into hell”. That shit fucked me up for years, and is a main reason I’m not religious at all and never will be. Fuck that this. If you need to scare people via made up bullshit to believe your fantasies, they probably aren’t valid.
Exactly! I realized this a long time ago, all religions have one thing in common and that’s fear and hell. Its all fantasy made up shit used to control people. I like this quote a lot by Seneca - Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
Tell him to tell them that Hel is the Norse goddess of the underworld to whose womb we return for rebirth. That’ll blow their tiny minds.
I need to know exactly where this took place if it's in the U.S. Otherwise, I'll have to call bullshit on this. My wife and I have 17 grandkids and 9 great grandkids in 3 different states and not one of them has been taught about hell.
Show him the desert (in person or in movies) and the arctic/antarctic and explain that people can exist in very harsh conditions. Hell would just be a nightmare-mode difficulty for humanity, but we would eventually win it out, just see literally any game ever, so hell wouldn't be a threat even if it existed.
Where's that, America? Well, "the land of the free" will never be free until they put this crap behind.
That's how they get you. Deep, psychological trauma.
I'm a teacher and I'd love more context. Elementary aged children especially misinterpret things or miscommunicate. Was it just a lesson on major religions? Like anthropology? Because most states start including that in the curriculum in 4th or 5th grade and I see zero problems with it as an atheist.
Is that a private school? If it's a public school, funded by taxpayer dollars, what you described is a blatant violation of the First Amendment. I'd seek clarification on the lesson or lesson plan, what the teacher said, etc. If it's a general discussion about the history of religions in general, that's usually considered ok. If it's active proselytizing, get the FFRF involved. If it's a private school, the law tends to be on their side.
He's ten, so keep it simple. Explain that Jesus is like an adult version of Santa Claus, be good - OR ELSE! It's just a way to keep folks 'in line' and gets them money
I'm glad my 10yo understands how ridiculous this all sounds.
my brother believed it all and made me his confirmation sponsor in high school. so what i did was sit him down and tell him he didn't have to be catholic or anything else, he just had to get confirmed to shut mom up. i think he's still catholic in his 30's, but i don't really want to know. anyway, it's cool that you have the opportunity to tell your brother it isn't real this early on.
Teach them about other fantasy worlds
If parents won't indoctrinate at home they'll try to do it school. We need to outlaw religion.
It’s called religious harassment
Don't be against teaching one ideology, be for teaching all ideology in a critical objective and theoretical way. Hopefully religion in general is on its way out, might take a hundred years or so, religion and lack of understanding of it are a tinder box always have been. The majority of wars are in someway faith based, religion is a millstone around humanities neck. It's stops us from moving forward as a society and emphasises our inherent differences
My 3rd grade kid came home saying Adam and Eve were first people on earth. That’s what his teacher told the class…
My only question/concern was it actually taught in class? (Like what was the pretext of the teacher talking about religion and hell) Or was it something other kids on the playground were talking about? If you are in the US and a teacher brought this up and it's a public school, there are definitely avenue's you can explore, like contacting FFRF to have them also look into this.
If it makes you feel any better, I too worried about hell at this age. I quickly became an atheist within like a year. This might work out for the best.
I also got told this as a child and I laughed straight to their face and said, "Well, I guess I will see you there". They were not amused.
Good for you for pulling him out of that fire that is entirely human made.
You could be against doing that to your brother and also be a pro-theist atheist. Have you ever had a Christian come up to you and ask something like “if you don’t believe in god then what’s stopping you from killing everybody?” That’s a bona fide sociopath and the only thing stopping him from harming others is sky daddy. Violent sociopaths exist in society and religion helps keep them in check.
i remember reading those short story pamphlets as a kid. and i was crying about my dad going to hell because he was an atheist.. i would cry at night, saying to bless every single person in my life because i was afraid they would die if i didn't. lots of religious ocd as a kid. religion has the capacity to be so harmful which people don't want to realize.
My entire childhood, we were told by the people at the church our mother took us to, that we were sinners and we were going to hell. Later, when I decided to stop going to church, I no longer worry about going to hell because it isn't shoved down my throat.
Duh. They teach about hell because they want you to be afraid for the rest of your life.
Make him a list of things that are made up: fairies, vampires and zombies, unobtainium and kryptonite, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, Valhalla, heaven and hell, ...cooties! Show him lots and lots of examples of things people have just invented for various reasons. It should help reassure him that hell is just one among a very long list of such imaginary things.