19 kids and counting - without the produced fluff. Girls/Women are good for nothing other than breeding and have no rights, can’t vote, can’t own land, can’t have a credit card, no procedures or surgery without your “Headship” agreeing to it, etc. Boys are just boys and it doesn’t matter if they rape girls, the girl was asking for it anyway.
I grew up in fundieville, and I can assure anyone who thinks it’s a good idea, unless you are a straight, white, conservative male you will not enjoy how Project 2025 works out for you.
Even most of them won’t like it. Being part of the “in” group doesn’t make life easier in a theocratic dictatorship.
Strong arm governments and leaders are notoriously paranoid and their unpopularity among their populace tends to mean they have to be heavy handed in dealing out fear and punishment to prevent revolution. Ultimately everyone begins to become suspicious and paranoid of each other to the point where even being an “in” ceases to be safe.
You see this a lot on the smaller scale of extremist organizations obsessed with purity and testing each other.
It's also going to mean lots of men trapped in early parenthood, impoverished and overworked to support such large families, and the ones who do love their wives and kids are going to have a difficult time watching their wives & kids struggling and suffering from poverty and overwork, especially when their wives are disabled or killed by pregnancy and birth.
>Compared to a place like Iran for instance, how bad would a Christian Theocracy be? Or compared to Pakistan for instance.
Exactly the same as those places if they could.
I don't see any difference. Project 2025 just seems to combine parts of communist China, only loyal party members can work for the government, and Theocratic Iran, the high priests get the last word.
It would be Southern Baptist, for sure. But a somewhat different state church version that would elevate all its flaws while its adherents dropped anything but a pretext of actual religiousity in favor of straight up right wing conservatism.
All the denominations hate each other and think the others are wrong, it's why there are different denominations.
Evangelicals or Catholics would come out on top and make everyone else convert.
Too much Filipino and Central American representation in the American Catholic church the Wasps that are planning this takeover aren’t too keen on the brown folks. Put your money on Evangelicals.
I had a friend in grad school who mapped the church denomination and attendance in the US. And there's a guy (he might be retired now) at Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis (ooee-pooee, colloquially speaking) that runs the POLIS Center who does similar work. From what I recall, we'd end up with our own version of religious wars of the 16th Century. The Southern Baptists vs Catholics. The rest would be comparatively minor.
Just remember that Italy was an ally of Germany at the time. Hard to say no when doing so will lead to your certain death. Churches are a business once you get into any level of authority. Dying and being replaced by a puppet is bad for business.
Or Afghanistan these days.
I dare say most Christians would say that the New Testament negates the Old Testament shit, but it actually doesn't and specifically states that the old rules still count. And many of the rules in Islam are just Jewish/Christian things reinvented
Saudi Arabia might be about right.
-A top elite class with unlimited resources
-Use religion to keep the workers in line
-drastic punishment for question authorities
-freedom to break any rule they want and buy their way out of responsibility
-and of course, subjugation of women. No Abrahamic theocracy would forget to control the women.
A full blown Christian theocracy would look like utter failure. It will snuff out all innovation and creativity and quickly devolve into a pathetic, cruel, backwards shithole.
Iran.
Women judges, lawyers, professors, etc were terminated on day one.
Women lost the right to vote overnight.
The constitution was changed to allow forced child-marriages — as young as nine.
The Family Protection Law was rescinded immediately allowing men to divorce women for any reason, take multiple wives, beat them, retain custody of all children - effectively making women slaves in their own home.
Head coverings and dress codes were imposed.
Women were forbidden from leaving the home without a male family escort.
This was a country where women had rights similar to the US. Most who supported the revolution expected full equality and were devastated.
Better pick up the holy book then buddy because:
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet” (1 Tim. 2:12)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. (Exodus 21:7-11)
“for a person between one month and five years, set the value of a male at five shekels of silver and that of a female at three shekels of silver” -(Leviticus 27:6)
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. (1 Corinthians 14:34)
“If a daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.” (Lev 21:9)
"And everything on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean. Everything also on which she sits shall be unclean." (Lev 15:20)
And so on and on and on. Go pound some sand.
Amazing. You have that literally exactly backwards.
Anyone who calls themselves a Christian, and then claims that the laws presented in the old testament no longer apply, is claiming that they, personally, know better than Jesus (Matthew 5:17-18, Matthew 15:3-9, Luke 16:17, Luke 19:16-17, John 5:46-48) and all the authors of the New Testament (James 2:8-10, 2 Timothy 3:16, Romans 2:13, Romans 3:31, 2 Peter 1:20-21, Hebrews 13:8, Revelations 22:18-19).
If you have such a low opinion of what Christ had to say, why call yourself a "Christian" at all?
* The apostle Paul on husbands and wives: "Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church." **1 Corinthians 14:34-35**
* Paul on why women should be silent in church: "For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided \[she\] continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty." **Titus 2:3-5**
* The apostle Paul on husbands and wives: "Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church." **1 Corinthians 14:34-35**
And that's just the New Testament.
If they decide they want to start pulling in stuff from the Old Testament, then it could easily start looking like Iran.
First of all, my point was how quickly a theocracy can take over and remove rights for half the population that seems inconceivable - including to those clamouring for the change.
Secondly, you clearly need to start reading the bible yourself if you think any of the things I mentioned are somehow inconsistent with the scriptures.
It's going to depend somewhat on which particular strain of Christianity wins.
Here's the thing: Christianity is not a unified front. Catholics and Protestants actually *hate* each other: quite a few Protestants don't even consider Cathoics "real" Christians. Protestantism itself breaks down into a ton of denominations that don't especially like each other, either. Then you've got whatever the Mormons have going on, and what little presence the Orthodox Church has in the US (more of a presence in Alaska than anywhere else in the US).
Right now, their goals are in alignment and they're teamed up to inject generic Christianity everywhere and defeat the evil atheists/LGBTQ+/etc. All other dragons being slain, however, once the seperation of church and state walls are fully torn down they'd start turning on each other to be THE Christianity of the United States.
Sure, either way you're going to see a *massive* loss of rights for anyone who isn't a white Christian male, BUT some of the specifics come down to which branch is dominant. The no birth control thing, for instance, is mostly a Catholic thing.
Interestingly I went to a Catholic Church in the last year and the lady next to me thought I was Protestant due to mil. This total stranger looks at me and says “I’m glad you’re here, we have to stick together.”
So weird
With some of those religious subsets, even if they eliminated everything they wanted to eliminate, they still won't be satisfied because people are still not acting "Christian" enough to their liking. The religious zealots still feel like they don't have enough control over how people think and act, so they're going to find more things to ban so they don't get tempted into disobedient thoughts.
Don't just assume everyone needs to get out and vote THIS time. Project 2025 is a playbook for any malleable republican candidate, not just trump. If we manage to prevent it this time around, it will simply be branded Project 2029, 2033, and so on. These people are playing the long game. Do they want it now? Of course, but they'll keep trying each time around. Also, don't simply wait for the presidential election to vote and call it a win. These people are setting up their forces in lower races such as state, county, city, and town. We need to be vigilant at ALL LEVELS of office, not just the highest
Iran’s Islamic Revolution and the subsequent authoritarian regime was basically the inspiration for Margaret Atwood’s A Handmaiden’s Tale.
A Christian theocracy in the US would likely take its cues from various Southern morality laws for the first decade. Up until the 80s or so, a lot of southern states had laws on the books rooted in religious morality.
A Christian theocracy would probably still be a constitutional form of government, except you’d have the government enforcing morality.
* Censoring the media and criminalizing opposition to morality laws as a from of immoral behavior.
* Regulating night life and entertainment. Bars would look a more like Cheers and a lot less like Coyote Ugly.
* Enforcing morality in academia, particularly in colleges. Say goodbye to ethnic studies, women’s studies, and a bunch of other social sciences. History classes would be subject to approved teaching materials, and biology lessons would have to tread carefully to avoid offending religious sensibilities.
* Using the medical system to forcibly institutionalize people who don’t conform to the new norms of behavior.
* Policing immoral businesses, which could include everything from strip clubs to stores selling women’s clothing and even shops selling incense and candles.
* Curfews and mandatory closing hours would likely be a thing too.
* Religious leaders would likely exert influence through Political Action Committees rather than erect any sort of state religious organization, at least for the first decade or two.
An American "theocracy" will simply be a convenient way to engage in crony capitalism and plutocracy. We will be distracted by the outrage of some woman sentenced to death in Texas for travelling to California to have a 2nd trimester abortion because if she doesn't then she might die. Meanwhile, Jared Kushner will get a 2 billion dollar loan from Saudi Ara... oh wait.
Probably have to look back to the 20th century.
How do they decide which ten commandments to use? There's two different versions given in Exodus and a third in Deuteronomy. It's almost like "God's unchanging law" was always a tool for those in power.
All theocratic countries are also misogynistic. The American fundamentalist Christians have no qualms about controlling the rights of women. It’s already happening and will get worse if Republicans get more power in state and federal government.
The Nationalist Christians (or, as I call them, Nat-Cs) will reverse decades of progress in human rights, international relations, and environmental protection.
In their worldview the white man is God’s chosen leader, the USA is God’s favorite country, and the resources of the Earth are to be exploited for their benefit. They believe Jesus and the end of the world is coming soon so there is no need to conserve resources. It also means they feel they have a duty to make the rest of us behave in the way they think God wants.
In short, they want a country that will reflect their end times fantasies.
Look at what has been happening in Turkey over the last 25 years. Erdoğan has slowly taken full control of the country and is now speeding towards becoming the next Iran. Turkey has reversed course from being a secular modern democracy and is now well on its way to becoming a full blown authoritarian Islamic state. He replaced all government workers, top military officers, and replaced educators from the top down. Islamists are now controlling practically every level of society. Everyone with an ounce of power is under RTE's control. There are more mosques being built than schools. Existing schools are being converted to religious schools. Another 10 years or less Turkey will look more like Iran. Another 20 years Afganistan.
And they seem to be on board with SA ( should have dressed modestly ), domestic Rape ( divorce is bad m’kay ), child abuse ( just relocate the abuser to fresh meat ) etc.
Conservative middle eastern countries are the closest in my view.
Ironic because conservatives here cite "sharia law" as some boogeyman that liberals are trying to install. When really those laws, rules, restrictions are more or less what Christian Conservatives want to install. Just with a different flavor of god dictating those same rules.
But more or less religion being front and center in all walks of life, religion and religious folks being in charge of law enforcement, schools, and more. A LOT of rights taken away from a LOT of people. Women, non-Christians, non-straight, non-white people would all be in for a horrible experience, as their rights are taken away, and in some cases their literal freedoms are taken away as they are punished or locked up just for existing.
NO religion has any place in a just, modern society.
Handmaid's tale is one possible outcome. I grew up around muslim and christian extremists, and they have a lot more in common than they want to admit. If they had the same control here they have in Iran, I'd expect similar outcome
Putin very much uses theocracy as window dressing for his regime. It is what sets Russia apart from the Soviet Union and makes religious conservatives in the west envy them today.
I think this is model they are imitating though, an uneducated disillusioned populace that are ruled over like cattle by a billionaire elite. The religion is just a tool to force the masses to accept their lot.
It depends on how, exactly, the transformation goes down. A severe transformation to something like Taliban rule would probably involve violence along the way, and I would kind of expect (based on absolutely no expertise, in fairness) that a more brutal regime would result.
What they're trying to do is a gradual transformation that doesn't break the country apart. Whether this works depends (I think) on how hard and fast they push. And whether the idiot manchild they've chosen can a) win the election and b) not derail their plans with his idiocy.
In that case, I would expect it to be more of a "cozy relationship" between religious groups and the government, with the goals of funneling money and vulnerable people to said religious groups.
Read the project 2025 manifesto. That’s what it will look like in the US. They couldn’t pull off ISIS or Taliban but this is getting close and once it starts you won’t be able to turn back so eventually it will end up like the Handmaiden’s Tale.
Look at the Middle East right now.
There's plenty of real world examples of how Theocracy works.
Check out how it worked for the Church of England and the Crusades and the Holy Roman Empire.
Perfect 21st century example is Afghanistan. Same god, different flavor. Same barbaric oppression of females and anyone not of the same belief system. We aren’t overstating it when we label Christian Nationalists as the American Taliban
It's all right there in the 2025 document. The fundamental change is that the attitude that liberty means "as long as it doesn't hurt other people, you can do what you want" is gone. Instead, 'liberty' means the "freedom to do what God has ordained".
That by itself should chill you to the bone, along with anyone else, whether religious or non-, who thinks their particular type of faith or lack thereof is not exactly the same as the variety preferred by the people pushing this kind of thing.
[Wikipedia has a pretty good overall summary.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025)
In essence it's complete dismantlement of the federal government as it currently exists, and replacing the role that secular community plays in our lives with a vastly expanded church given effectively the power of the state to dictate our lives.
To be fair the Crusades were in direct response to Islamic expansion into Europe. Ottoman empire at the time was engaged in some serious colonial expansion for a good while before European Christian powers got their shit together
My reading is that the Project will intrude into most areas of life, not just the ones getting attention now like reproductive rights and education. Most decisions will be made through the prism of religion.
The only potential bright spot might be that they'll descend into interfaith fighting over whose doctrine take precedence. It'll make for 'interesting' times.
Let's hope most voters wake up to the danger by November and it never comes to that!
It would probably just look like every other authoritarian regime with the serial number covered by a Jesus fish sticker.
China puts Uyghurs in concentration camps. India is bulldozing the homes of non-Hindus. They’re both functionally fascism, just with different set dressing.
They're trying for christian nationalism, but what's going to happen when they realize that there are like 50+ denominations that don't all agree with each other? Like what are the odds that they'll just kill each other because they can't agree? We've seen it before within Islam, with Sunni and Shia. I guess my point is, I keep seeing all the references to "the church" but there really isn't an established central flavor of christianity. Catholics vs Protestants, Baptists vs. Methodists, Pentacostals vs. Mormons.
Yeah...Iran. The fact that the faith is different, if you look at the mechanics of what it does in terms of institutional design and fealty to religious litmus tests, it's structurally pretty much what all the dispensationalist loons want.
Or maybe one might select DPRK, as they've 'elected' Dear leader as a near mythological godhead (much as Trump wishes) and drive all policy from that.
It’s hard to say because as has been pointed out, there are many denominations. But I think, based on current trends in there US, you’d see the following.
1. Same sex marriage no longer recognized.
2. A flat out ban on abortion.
3. Christianity as the official religion.
4. The outlawing of pagan religions.
5. Anti-Blasphemy laws in entertainment.
6. Prayer before sporting events.
7. Porn ban
8. Bigger tax breaks for big families
9. Outlawing of interracial relationships (with exceptions*)
10. Creationism in school
11. Allowing discrimination in hiring based on religion and sexual orientation
12. Probably a ban on seven days a week businesses. Would probably make businesses pick a day of Sunday or Saturday closures.
13. Remove any allowances made for recreational marijuana.
14. Heavy regulation of social media.
15. Outlawing gambling at the federal level, so no more Vegas.
16. Enforcement of adultery criminalization.
17. Increase of parental authority.
18. Probably an increased use of the death penalty.
19. Probably an increase in police authority.
20. Public decency laws controlling outward dress of men and women.
21. End to no-fault divorce.
Those, with the exceptions of 9, 18 and 19 are the ones based on religion. But considering modern trends, I don’t see that it wouldn’t just be right-wing and wouldn’t expand to right-wing territory like.
Segregation, English as official language, increased military size, no privacy, lock down on immigration unless from Europe.
Well, that's going to heavily depend on which denomination of Christian. I don't think the fringe has thought that through yet. What if it is catholics that manage to pull that off ? Will they denounce all others as illegitimate and pull funding ? How about the Mormons? Or the seventh day Adventist denouncing Sunday worship ? Who's right ? Who's wrong ? Is it not best that everyone just fuck off to thier own and government not get involved ?
Vatican City is a theocratic government whose head of state is the Pope. As far as I know they are the only modern Christian theocracy (EDIT: I looked it up, and while not a sovereign nation like the Vatican is, Mount Athos is an autonomous area in Greece run as an Orthodox theocracy).
There are a lot of Christian states (which is officially different than a theocracy... in a theocracy the church is literally in charge of the country, but a Christian state has some other form of ruler in charge). The list of modern Christian states are: Argentina, Armenia, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Denmark, Greenland, Faroe Islands, England, Georgia, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Malta, Monaco, Norway, Samoa, Serbia, Tonga, Tuvalu, and Zambia.
Only one example of a full blown theocracy and its not entirely encouraging, but quite a few examples of Christian states that include some of the more liberal/progressive nations. So it is hard to say, it seems to be the government itself that matters, not the religion behind it.
It would look like any of the Islamic theocracies. That's why I can't figure out why industry backs the Republicans. Religious states generally go hand in hand with economic stagnation.
A Christian Theocracy or an Evangelical Theocracy which bizarrely picked up Catholic views on abortion and contraception and became super xenophobic which runs completely counter to the Good Samaritan and other teachings of Jesus.
Define Christian. Do you mean everyone who identifies as Christian? That would be such a diverse group that they could never agree on anything. Or do you mean a subgroup that agrees that everyone in the group are “real” Christians? Then you are talking about a very small group that would spend all of its time fighting with other groups to establish who the “real” Christians are.
Noticed a lot of people pointing out Islamic theocracies. Maybe you should instead look at Russia. The church is basically a puppet of the state, while the state pushes fairly blatant religious laws like banning gay and trans people. Basically all the usual backwards conservative nonsense.
But then there's the long term. Anyone with money, skill, education, or even a chance will flee. So many Russians moved into other Slavic countries to escape, just like so many other theocratic police states lose any skilled population to people leaving. Brain drain doesn't kill a country quickly, but it does kill it. It's taken the Soviet Union from a superpower to an economy built around digging up resources and selling them to liberal democracies because it can't keep skilled labor. Canada and Europe will boom because there'd be no where else for literate people to go.
This is made worse by the fact that dictatorships don't tolerate dissent, and that includes those within the government itself. Look at Russia again, how its military readiness had crumbled, but no one was willing or able to point that out for fear of being punished. And now they've gotten into a war that is wrecking their economy, cutting them off from the world diplomatically, and destroying the stockpile of weapons built during the soviet years when they were at least more functional and not a kleptocracy. And they have nuclear weapons, so them imploding could go very bad very fast.
That said, I doubt there's any serious chance of conservatives being able to pull this off. The officers in the military aren't going to support them. The majority of the population is still pissed over abortion. They have no chance of winning a civil war currently. Their only hope is to use legal manipulation to avoid democracy and even that would result in massive civil unrest that would threaten the economy.
In the end, my money is on Trump losing do to moderates coming out of the woodwork to stop him again. Abortion laws pushing voters further from the republican party in legislative elections. Conservatives getting more detached from reality and losing more of their voter base to appeal to cultists. Or, if there is a merciful God out their somewhere, a bioengineering student will snap under the strain of constant existential threat and build a biological doomsday device that finally ends my suffering by driving us into extinction. Fingers crossed.
You know those countries where you have different flavors of Muslims fighting and killing each other over which is the true Islam? That’s what America would become.
It would fundamentally alter justice. Instead of taking a human centered approach to rehabilitate criminals it would take a harsh capital punishment approach we've long tried to get away from.
I predict that once they got rid of the people they don't like \[atheists, the trans community, the gay community, etc\], they would then start looking for others to hate and turn on themselves.
"I don't think Joe is the right kind of christian. Might have to eliminate him."
I can't picture them all getting along.
Yes, because it's scary to not have a clear picture of what it may end up looking like. On a scale of Vatican City to Iran/Afghanistan, I'm curious how bad a theocracy we'd be expecting. In one case I can still have the option of moving out of the country more easily and rebuilding my life elsewhere. In another I'd be actively hunted down.
Given the variety of christian faiths I don't think it would look very different from now. There'd be different states and tiers of power and so forth. They'd hate each other as much then as they hate atheists now.
Not the 21st Century, but a modern European state, nestled uncomfortably in the bosom of the most rapacious empire one people ever inflicted on the world: Ireland, until about 1985.
[https://www.amazon.com/Ireland-1912-1985-Politics-Joseph-Lee/dp/0521377412](https://www.amazon.com/Ireland-1912-1985-Politics-Joseph-Lee/dp/0521377412)
My knee jerk reaction is to say "handmaids tale" but realistically it probably won't be like that. Not in the first decade of it coming to fruition anyway. I think the best place for us to look is actually Utah. I've heard a lot about Utah, and to be fair to anyone who disagrees with me, Utah has a way deeper history with the LDS Church as a united societal force. However, they're still good to look at because apparently the situation there is that while the LDS Church does not directly govern anything, but LDS run the highest levels of Utahn society. And it's not that they don't allow Non-LDS to run for political office, but it's probably more like since the majority of Utah is LDS, a non-LDS person running for office in Utah is not likely to be taken seriously. Actually, we're not very far off when you look at the political situation in the US. Polling shows that most Americans naturally distrust atheists disproportionately, not just for positions like political office, but for daily life. We already struggle to get the political campaigns of non-Christians to be taken seriously, and it's more of an uphill battle for total atheists.
Yeah it's a little more complicated given the US is split several ways between Protestants, Methodists, Baptist, Catholics, Mormons and many more. Although many Americans who are in different sects no longer have as much loyalty to their sects. You don't tend to see people identify as "Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Orthodox, Catholic". Now it more often tends to be just "Christian". Catholics are an occasional exception because of the sheer size of American Catholics, and many a protestant beleive Catholics to be heretics in some light, but I at least know when I ask people like my mother, she says she's Catholic, but actively prefers Baptist, non-denominational(often just Baptists in denial), and she's also invited over LDS missionaries occasionally. She doesn't have the...mental faculties to identify the theological disagreements of these churches. Heck, she doesn't even care. The way she sees it they all believe in God, and so are credible. I had left Christianity and declared as much to my family, but some years later I became a Baha'i and my mother sees it as me "returning to God" despite me literally not being a Christian still, moreso a liberal theist.
And I think that's the problem with Christian culture in the past years. As people have left churches and it's no longer become reasonable to assume any given person was a Christian of some kind, it's become standard to identify one's self as simply "Christian". There's also a separate trend of how less people have invested into the study of theology, the people that haven't actively left Christianity or haven't given their religion any more thought than societal-pressure-induced church attendance have focused more and more on the "interesting" parts of Christianity, so you miss the nuances in the theological debate and the slow death of nerdy theology. With this convergence of church culture, people (in America anyway) are abandoning their sectarianism, you see this in the current push for Christian Nationalism, Christians are largely disinterested in sectarianism and for now are pursuing a united front against the perceived "invasion" of non-Christians and the "godlessness" of many liberals and progressives. I've seen many of those nerdy theology accounts that might poke at other sects for their different practices and beliefs, but they're ALWAYS united on Christianity as a whole taking over.
So really, I think that earlier on we will see the Utahnization of the USA, but instead of one church taking over, it'll probably be a coalition of several different churches, existing ones or newly emerging ones like the one u/redeemedzoomer is riding. At first that coalition of churches will be soft, but as control for the government hardens I think the alliance will become official. As far as political parties go, Democrats while not theocratic in the scenario of a theocratic USA would have to adapt to some religious views to be capable of winning elections without atheists becoming a majority by 2030. (We're not on track for that until like the 2070s, assuming current trends stick) Realistically the divide goes that Republicans cater to all Protestants, Mormons and 75% of Catholics, of those 40% white catholics, and 60% Latino Catholics. I'm assuming the other 25% of Catholics will be drawn to the Democratic Party just because of the focus on economic issues. And the Democratics will likely be drawn even farther right by conservatives like Biden and Manchin who seek compromise with christofascists. Still not as far right as the Republicans, not at all, but I think if we go down the theocratic "republic" path, then the Democrats will stop advocating for non-Christians as heavily, whether if they're trying to win over religious voters or if they're being commanded to by a religious elite.
By the middle point where America is somewhere in between Utah and Gilead, American society would probably be like a mix of South Korea's traditionalism, Hungary's economy(but sized up to scale obviously), and Russian social policy. I add South Korea's traditionalism because the traditional expectations of South Korea's society have wreaked havoc on the youth. South Korea particular has high suicide rates that I think will skyrocket under an American Theocracy, likely from LGBT+ people or women in general. I say our economy would be like Hungary's because I suspect we'd lose a few trade partners but the economy might become more collectivist and would actually improve from what it is right now. But take that with a grain of salt, because I promise those gains will come from the theocratic USA taking the Chinese strategy of having the people surrender their freedoms in return for economic prosperity. It will suceed in the first few years, but by the next big economic crash, it would be too late for the citizens of the USA.
By the time we're 2/3s Gilead I think we'll not all of it, but we'd see substantial portions of the Internet blocked for reason of "degenerate content." This would certainly encompass porn and LGBT+ subjects, but also likely reproductive health topics, forums for dissent, VPN sites, possibly even certain Wikipedia entries, or academic analysis of theology that's not Christianity affirming. The big issue getting past 2/3s Gilead stage is Christian sectarianism. For the US to fall in line with one church, we need to see more American Christians alienated with their current churches or simply not care about their sectarianism at all. It'll happen with American Protestants possibly as soon as 2030. But the merging of Catholics and Protestants will be difficult. I think the likely outcome is we get something like the Presbyterian Church, with an slight Catholic flair. And as I said previously, we are seeing some convergence in American Christians, but it would take at minimum until 2070 for the lines to be blurred enough that one unified church could take power in the USA without the disapproval of other sects. For us to get to the end of the 21st century with a still Christian America, Gen X and/or other generations would need to be convinced. Gen Z I don't think a majority of us will, but people claim Gen Alpha might be more conservative, possibly as a backlash to Gen Z's progressivism. But I have doubts about this, as there's an interesting trend of political polarization being pretty interestingly drawn against gender lines. Gen Z women are very progressive, but Gen Z men are becoming increasingly conservative, on average. Doesn't help that Gen Z consider political affiliation to be very important in dating.
This'll probably be a problem because you know, no dating means no marriage, no babies, no families to spread and instill ideas, good or bad. But the likely outcome from this is that Christian men and women are the main ones having family, with the excess of Christian men being the most rabid soldiers and officers, the type of people who might be shooting at dissenters, executing prisoners and such. And I think we will see a kind of feedback loop with the afforementioned problem of LGBT+ suicides increasing in a theocratic USA. We already have Christians pumping out rhetoric that LGBT+ people are "sick" or using the fact of LGBT+ suicides already being higher than average to label being LGBT+ itself a mental illness. Then the groomer rhetoric. I think a American theocracy doubles down on the groomer rhetoric and this pushes people to the point of sending LGBT+ people to facilities, either for conversion therapy, turning them into eunuchs in some cases, or "eradication". Now controversially, I think 3/4s Gilead is as far as we'll get without a revolution against the government, within the 21st century. But it's still terrifying. I'm not even an atheist anymore, I've since become a Bahá'í. Yet I will not take a Christian America as a victory for God, but rather a threat both to humans, the world, and the study and practice of genuine religion. Of course there's always the possibility the Amish just take over the nation by the 23rd century, I don't know, I'm not a sociologist, although I am a history major. Sorry for the immense yapping. And I'm open to criticism.
Edit: one more thing I realized I left out! I KNOW that the death of nerdy theology is the main reason for Christianity losing credibility, because there's a simple story in the Bible that discredits the ENTIRE Christian Nationalist movement in the USA and parallel movements all over the world. I encourage y'all to use this as a rebuttal to any Christian Nationalists you meet. Jesus fasted in the desert for 40 days, right? And Satan came to Jesus, offering Jesus control of the entire world. And Jesus refused. You know why? Because Christians are to believe that Jesus is God, and the world is God's, so Jesus already had rightful control of the world, and Satan was offering Jesus something that was already his. Certainly not them, and still not in the moment but eventually Christians believe "every knee will bow", but the caveat here is that it is to be by people accepting the beleif into their hearts, not by it being forced unto people.
They have been trying to stuff Christianity, or their version of it, down our throats for decades now. People are not going to change just because they want them to. You would have to drastically violate the Constitution to do that and people are not going to just go along. Try as you might, you can't legislate morality. They might try but it's not going to work. Never has, never will.
No, but you can still pass laws enforcing a particular morality and make lives miserable for all who cannot or will not conform, even to the point of taking away their freedom or even life.
Uganda might be the closest thing. I'm not too worried about America becoming a fascist theocracy. Most conservative religious people and polticians do not want that. Most of the political change is cosmetic for election optics and not too disruptive. And the abortion issue will get sorted out on its own and is just an in-between phase that everyone saw coming, even RBG. It needs to be federally codified, and that was never going to happen as long as we were basing laws on an outdated court decision. It's just a blip in time as the pendulum swings away from the strong liberalism that affected the US for a few years. It will repeat the cycle and swing back the other direction like it always does. Alarm is okay. But I don't see any reason to predict imminent doom.
The taliban but with crosses. Uganda is probably the closest modern state with it's anti gay laws even if the convict wins ( lets hope not) there won't be a federal theocracy,
but they will likely some states that go that will keep going that way, but even in deep red states abortion bans are unpopular and have failed referdums
Downvote dodo 🦤 mad
People comparing a theoretical Christian theocracy with ISIS, Afghanistan and Saudi-Arabia is really fucked up and tells a lot about historical knowledge. Especially, since there actually is a real Christian theocracy, which is pretty tame: The Vatican.
Until the French Revolution, the Church(es) held a lot of power in all European countries. Hell, there were actual, real Christian theocracies around until 1806 in the Holy Roman Empire!
Non, absolutely none of those committed atrocities compared to ISIS, or had horrific laws like Saudi-Arabia!
Christian law does not demand to stone adulterers!
Neither does Christian law demand to throw homosexuals off roofs (there were harsh penalties for "fornication" though).
And Christian law certainly doesn't consider a rape victim an adulterer (adulteress, I probably should say), and therefore to be executed.
If the Pope just reestablished his domain over Italy, things would just revert to the 1950s. Or maybe 1900. Not a nice place to be, but better than Afghanistan by far. Like, not even comparable. But obviously you don't need a theocracy for that, just vote for right-wing nutters.
Some crazy Evangelicals in the US bible belt or some deluded Christians in Africa taking over would be much worse, obviously. But a woman still probably wouldn't have to fear her head being bashed in, because she got raped.
19 kids and counting - without the produced fluff. Girls/Women are good for nothing other than breeding and have no rights, can’t vote, can’t own land, can’t have a credit card, no procedures or surgery without your “Headship” agreeing to it, etc. Boys are just boys and it doesn’t matter if they rape girls, the girl was asking for it anyway. I grew up in fundieville, and I can assure anyone who thinks it’s a good idea, unless you are a straight, white, conservative male you will not enjoy how Project 2025 works out for you.
Even most of them won’t like it. Being part of the “in” group doesn’t make life easier in a theocratic dictatorship. Strong arm governments and leaders are notoriously paranoid and their unpopularity among their populace tends to mean they have to be heavy handed in dealing out fear and punishment to prevent revolution. Ultimately everyone begins to become suspicious and paranoid of each other to the point where even being an “in” ceases to be safe. You see this a lot on the smaller scale of extremist organizations obsessed with purity and testing each other.
It's also going to mean lots of men trapped in early parenthood, impoverished and overworked to support such large families, and the ones who do love their wives and kids are going to have a difficult time watching their wives & kids struggling and suffering from poverty and overwork, especially when their wives are disabled or killed by pregnancy and birth.
Literally went to a religious “school” with a dude with 18 brothers and sisters it is *so dumb*
Ill post from the grave and let you know.
And then only if you check their other boxes. It's a very small club they plan to make
>Compared to a place like Iran for instance, how bad would a Christian Theocracy be? Or compared to Pakistan for instance. Exactly the same as those places if they could.
I don't see any difference. Project 2025 just seems to combine parts of communist China, only loyal party members can work for the government, and Theocratic Iran, the high priests get the last word.
Google any picture of ISIS-held territory.
Exactly. They would abolish all laws not aligned with the church. They would execute all people not claiming to follow the church.
I'm always curious to know which church? LDS, Southern Baptist, Lutheran's etc. would they all fight that LL 1 supreme championship
They would fight it out and the craziest would come out on top.
Evangelicals are largely southern Baptist, so probably that
It would be Southern Baptist, for sure. But a somewhat different state church version that would elevate all its flaws while its adherents dropped anything but a pretext of actual religiousity in favor of straight up right wing conservatism.
All the denominations hate each other and think the others are wrong, it's why there are different denominations. Evangelicals or Catholics would come out on top and make everyone else convert.
Too much Filipino and Central American representation in the American Catholic church the Wasps that are planning this takeover aren’t too keen on the brown folks. Put your money on Evangelicals.
Look at Northern Ireland where Protestants and Catholics kill each over who is right.
That’s a little less about religion and more about colonialism, identity and retribution IMO.
Not just yours. As with pretty much everywhere else, religion is the excuse, not the reason.
I had a friend in grad school who mapped the church denomination and attendance in the US. And there's a guy (he might be retired now) at Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis (ooee-pooee, colloquially speaking) that runs the POLIS Center who does similar work. From what I recall, we'd end up with our own version of religious wars of the 16th Century. The Southern Baptists vs Catholics. The rest would be comparatively minor.
Not "The Church." Something a lot closer to the authoritarianism of undereducated Afghanis than the thoughtful openness of Pope Francis.
With or without the child molestation? Francis is best in breed after 2000 years - but let’s not mistake the Catholic Church as a net force for good
With
The Catholic Church has committed/condoned/encouraged/hid/aided every atrocity known to man.
and still is
The Catholic Church sided with Hitler.
Just remember that Italy was an ally of Germany at the time. Hard to say no when doing so will lead to your certain death. Churches are a business once you get into any level of authority. Dying and being replaced by a puppet is bad for business.
I dunno. A lot of people have died refusing to partner with the devil. I would imagine the pope and the church would be in that boat
I would've said look at Iran. That's like the most reasonable you can get out of a theocracy. It isn't very good even at its best.
Or Afghanistan these days. I dare say most Christians would say that the New Testament negates the Old Testament shit, but it actually doesn't and specifically states that the old rules still count. And many of the rules in Islam are just Jewish/Christian things reinvented
It also specifically states that it does... That's part of the problem, you can suss just about any meaning you want out of that book.
Iran, Saudi Arabia …
Saudi Arabia might be about right. -A top elite class with unlimited resources -Use religion to keep the workers in line -drastic punishment for question authorities -freedom to break any rule they want and buy their way out of responsibility -and of course, subjugation of women. No Abrahamic theocracy would forget to control the women.
Whenever I see a pickup with MAGA flags flying, I say “ISIS!”
Same idiot, different sky-daddy.
Some African states like Uganda are borderline.
Republic of Gilead from *Handmaid's Tale*
Followed by the Testaments
The Taliban in Afghanistan is a great example.
And iran
Imagine renaming the oppressive features of sharia law, the taliban, Iran, Yemen, Pakistan etc and calling them Christian -then you have it
Look at Afghanistan. That's what we are voting against.
Afghanistan but with nukes.
…and an endless defense (probably soon to be offense) budget
That budget would drop precipitously over the next ten years as the economy implodes.
A full blown Christian theocracy would look like utter failure. It will snuff out all innovation and creativity and quickly devolve into a pathetic, cruel, backwards shithole.
Think Inquisitions and you'll get a pretty good idea on how it will go
Are we sure this hasn't already happened?
Iran. Women judges, lawyers, professors, etc were terminated on day one. Women lost the right to vote overnight. The constitution was changed to allow forced child-marriages — as young as nine. The Family Protection Law was rescinded immediately allowing men to divorce women for any reason, take multiple wives, beat them, retain custody of all children - effectively making women slaves in their own home. Head coverings and dress codes were imposed. Women were forbidden from leaving the home without a male family escort. This was a country where women had rights similar to the US. Most who supported the revolution expected full equality and were devastated.
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Right wing Christians are the reason child marriage is still legal in 37 states.
Better pick up the holy book then buddy because: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet” (1 Tim. 2:12) When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. (Exodus 21:7-11) “for a person between one month and five years, set the value of a male at five shekels of silver and that of a female at three shekels of silver” -(Leviticus 27:6) Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. (1 Corinthians 14:34) “If a daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.” (Lev 21:9) "And everything on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean. Everything also on which she sits shall be unclean." (Lev 15:20) And so on and on and on. Go pound some sand.
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old testament AND new testament, don't pick and choose.
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Amazing. You have that literally exactly backwards. Anyone who calls themselves a Christian, and then claims that the laws presented in the old testament no longer apply, is claiming that they, personally, know better than Jesus (Matthew 5:17-18, Matthew 15:3-9, Luke 16:17, Luke 19:16-17, John 5:46-48) and all the authors of the New Testament (James 2:8-10, 2 Timothy 3:16, Romans 2:13, Romans 3:31, 2 Peter 1:20-21, Hebrews 13:8, Revelations 22:18-19). If you have such a low opinion of what Christ had to say, why call yourself a "Christian" at all?
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* The apostle Paul on husbands and wives: "Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church." **1 Corinthians 14:34-35** * Paul on why women should be silent in church: "For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided \[she\] continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty." **Titus 2:3-5** * The apostle Paul on husbands and wives: "Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church." **1 Corinthians 14:34-35** And that's just the New Testament. If they decide they want to start pulling in stuff from the Old Testament, then it could easily start looking like Iran.
First of all, my point was how quickly a theocracy can take over and remove rights for half the population that seems inconceivable - including to those clamouring for the change. Secondly, you clearly need to start reading the bible yourself if you think any of the things I mentioned are somehow inconsistent with the scriptures.
It's going to depend somewhat on which particular strain of Christianity wins. Here's the thing: Christianity is not a unified front. Catholics and Protestants actually *hate* each other: quite a few Protestants don't even consider Cathoics "real" Christians. Protestantism itself breaks down into a ton of denominations that don't especially like each other, either. Then you've got whatever the Mormons have going on, and what little presence the Orthodox Church has in the US (more of a presence in Alaska than anywhere else in the US). Right now, their goals are in alignment and they're teamed up to inject generic Christianity everywhere and defeat the evil atheists/LGBTQ+/etc. All other dragons being slain, however, once the seperation of church and state walls are fully torn down they'd start turning on each other to be THE Christianity of the United States. Sure, either way you're going to see a *massive* loss of rights for anyone who isn't a white Christian male, BUT some of the specifics come down to which branch is dominant. The no birth control thing, for instance, is mostly a Catholic thing.
>they'd start turning on each other to be THE Christianity of the United States. Orthodoxy Wars. Each sect vying for literal Holier-Than-Thou
Interestingly I went to a Catholic Church in the last year and the lady next to me thought I was Protestant due to mil. This total stranger looks at me and says “I’m glad you’re here, we have to stick together.” So weird
With some of those religious subsets, even if they eliminated everything they wanted to eliminate, they still won't be satisfied because people are still not acting "Christian" enough to their liking. The religious zealots still feel like they don't have enough control over how people think and act, so they're going to find more things to ban so they don't get tempted into disobedient thoughts.
Hate is such a strong word... Most people are pretty chill really. A few do get very worked up, but that isn't even close to being a majority.
Don't just assume everyone needs to get out and vote THIS time. Project 2025 is a playbook for any malleable republican candidate, not just trump. If we manage to prevent it this time around, it will simply be branded Project 2029, 2033, and so on. These people are playing the long game. Do they want it now? Of course, but they'll keep trying each time around. Also, don't simply wait for the presidential election to vote and call it a win. These people are setting up their forces in lower races such as state, county, city, and town. We need to be vigilant at ALL LEVELS of office, not just the highest
Look at any theocracy in the world. Oppressive governments that don’t care about human rights.
Think Taliban. That is their goal. They want Thought-Crime police!
Iran, 1979 onwards, too.
Saudi Arabia comes close.
Redneck sharia and Republican Jesus followers firing AR-15 at anyone who is different are around the corner. Do you really need examples?
It would look just like Iran except christian instead of Muslim.
Iranian mullahs arn't trying to make it so women cannot work, hold jobs, vote. They even want to prevent women from having bank accounts.
Irans version of our supreme court
Usa will be worse than iran if they get what they want.
Iran’s Islamic Revolution and the subsequent authoritarian regime was basically the inspiration for Margaret Atwood’s A Handmaiden’s Tale. A Christian theocracy in the US would likely take its cues from various Southern morality laws for the first decade. Up until the 80s or so, a lot of southern states had laws on the books rooted in religious morality. A Christian theocracy would probably still be a constitutional form of government, except you’d have the government enforcing morality. * Censoring the media and criminalizing opposition to morality laws as a from of immoral behavior. * Regulating night life and entertainment. Bars would look a more like Cheers and a lot less like Coyote Ugly. * Enforcing morality in academia, particularly in colleges. Say goodbye to ethnic studies, women’s studies, and a bunch of other social sciences. History classes would be subject to approved teaching materials, and biology lessons would have to tread carefully to avoid offending religious sensibilities. * Using the medical system to forcibly institutionalize people who don’t conform to the new norms of behavior. * Policing immoral businesses, which could include everything from strip clubs to stores selling women’s clothing and even shops selling incense and candles. * Curfews and mandatory closing hours would likely be a thing too. * Religious leaders would likely exert influence through Political Action Committees rather than erect any sort of state religious organization, at least for the first decade or two.
Yeah, Florida's "Don't Say Gay" is just a start. Laws that are so vague as to make anyone fearful of accusations of violating them.
What do they do with people who refuse?
institutionalize them in mental hospital, or kill them.
Thats a nice way to describe murder.
This is why EVERYONE must get off their asses and actually go to the polling stations to vote for the Democrats instead of sitting on the sidelines.
An American "theocracy" will simply be a convenient way to engage in crony capitalism and plutocracy. We will be distracted by the outrage of some woman sentenced to death in Texas for travelling to California to have a 2nd trimester abortion because if she doesn't then she might die. Meanwhile, Jared Kushner will get a 2 billion dollar loan from Saudi Ara... oh wait.
Probably have to look back to the 20th century. How do they decide which ten commandments to use? There's two different versions given in Exodus and a third in Deuteronomy. It's almost like "God's unchanging law" was always a tool for those in power.
All theocratic countries are also misogynistic. The American fundamentalist Christians have no qualms about controlling the rights of women. It’s already happening and will get worse if Republicans get more power in state and federal government. The Nationalist Christians (or, as I call them, Nat-Cs) will reverse decades of progress in human rights, international relations, and environmental protection. In their worldview the white man is God’s chosen leader, the USA is God’s favorite country, and the resources of the Earth are to be exploited for their benefit. They believe Jesus and the end of the world is coming soon so there is no need to conserve resources. It also means they feel they have a duty to make the rest of us behave in the way they think God wants. In short, they want a country that will reflect their end times fantasies.
Look at what has been happening in Turkey over the last 25 years. Erdoğan has slowly taken full control of the country and is now speeding towards becoming the next Iran. Turkey has reversed course from being a secular modern democracy and is now well on its way to becoming a full blown authoritarian Islamic state. He replaced all government workers, top military officers, and replaced educators from the top down. Islamists are now controlling practically every level of society. Everyone with an ounce of power is under RTE's control. There are more mosques being built than schools. Existing schools are being converted to religious schools. Another 10 years or less Turkey will look more like Iran. Another 20 years Afganistan.
Vatican City is the only actual Christian theocracy. Moldova might as well be with 90+ percent of the population identifying as Orthodox Christian.
And Vatican only supported democratic opposition behind iron curtain because you cannot go straight from "communism" to right wing dictatorship.
And they seem to be on board with SA ( should have dressed modestly ), domestic Rape ( divorce is bad m’kay ), child abuse ( just relocate the abuser to fresh meat ) etc.
Conservative middle eastern countries are the closest in my view. Ironic because conservatives here cite "sharia law" as some boogeyman that liberals are trying to install. When really those laws, rules, restrictions are more or less what Christian Conservatives want to install. Just with a different flavor of god dictating those same rules. But more or less religion being front and center in all walks of life, religion and religious folks being in charge of law enforcement, schools, and more. A LOT of rights taken away from a LOT of people. Women, non-Christians, non-straight, non-white people would all be in for a horrible experience, as their rights are taken away, and in some cases their literal freedoms are taken away as they are punished or locked up just for existing. NO religion has any place in a just, modern society.
Handmaid's tale is one possible outcome. I grew up around muslim and christian extremists, and they have a lot more in common than they want to admit. If they had the same control here they have in Iran, I'd expect similar outcome
Best comparison I think would be Russia.
No, that would be an example of fascism. Ohhhhhhh..... 😳😳😳😳
Putin very much uses theocracy as window dressing for his regime. It is what sets Russia apart from the Soviet Union and makes religious conservatives in the west envy them today.
I think this is model they are imitating though, an uneducated disillusioned populace that are ruled over like cattle by a billionaire elite. The religion is just a tool to force the masses to accept their lot.
Takes like this bring me back to the idea, that atheist != intelligent. At least google something about Russia before writing this bullshit.
The handmaid tale series paints a good picture
Louisiana trying making a good effort.
Simply put, you will be shown your 'place'. You will either act accordingly, or they come after you.
It depends on how, exactly, the transformation goes down. A severe transformation to something like Taliban rule would probably involve violence along the way, and I would kind of expect (based on absolutely no expertise, in fairness) that a more brutal regime would result. What they're trying to do is a gradual transformation that doesn't break the country apart. Whether this works depends (I think) on how hard and fast they push. And whether the idiot manchild they've chosen can a) win the election and b) not derail their plans with his idiocy. In that case, I would expect it to be more of a "cozy relationship" between religious groups and the government, with the goals of funneling money and vulnerable people to said religious groups.
Watch A Handmaids Tale. Cuz this is their wet dream and dreams would be coming true for them if they could live in that world.
Handmaid’s tale
Would they be able to agree on which type of Christianity they would legislate?
Read the project 2025 manifesto. That’s what it will look like in the US. They couldn’t pull off ISIS or Taliban but this is getting close and once it starts you won’t be able to turn back so eventually it will end up like the Handmaiden’s Tale.
Well, prosperity and education are negatively correlated with religion, so I'm guessing not very prosperous or educated.
I'm a Brit and I'm terrified for you.
Look at the Middle East right now. There's plenty of real world examples of how Theocracy works. Check out how it worked for the Church of England and the Crusades and the Holy Roman Empire.
Perfect 21st century example is Afghanistan. Same god, different flavor. Same barbaric oppression of females and anyone not of the same belief system. We aren’t overstating it when we label Christian Nationalists as the American Taliban
Similar to The Handmaid's Tale minus the Handmaids.
It's all right there in the 2025 document. The fundamental change is that the attitude that liberty means "as long as it doesn't hurt other people, you can do what you want" is gone. Instead, 'liberty' means the "freedom to do what God has ordained". That by itself should chill you to the bone, along with anyone else, whether religious or non-, who thinks their particular type of faith or lack thereof is not exactly the same as the variety preferred by the people pushing this kind of thing. [Wikipedia has a pretty good overall summary.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025) In essence it's complete dismantlement of the federal government as it currently exists, and replacing the role that secular community plays in our lives with a vastly expanded church given effectively the power of the state to dictate our lives.
Have you heard of the dark ages, the crusades and the inquisition. That's the true face of Christianity.
To be fair the Crusades were in direct response to Islamic expansion into Europe. Ottoman empire at the time was engaged in some serious colonial expansion for a good while before European Christian powers got their shit together
The Vatican.
Iran
Like every other form of fascism in the 20th century
My reading is that the Project will intrude into most areas of life, not just the ones getting attention now like reproductive rights and education. Most decisions will be made through the prism of religion. The only potential bright spot might be that they'll descend into interfaith fighting over whose doctrine take precedence. It'll make for 'interesting' times. Let's hope most voters wake up to the danger by November and it never comes to that!
It would probably just look like every other authoritarian regime with the serial number covered by a Jesus fish sticker. China puts Uyghurs in concentration camps. India is bulldozing the homes of non-Hindus. They’re both functionally fascism, just with different set dressing.
Like Britain in V for Vendetta.
Pretty sure Hungary is. Orban is the corrupt, nepotistic ruler, pushing Christian "values".
They're trying for christian nationalism, but what's going to happen when they realize that there are like 50+ denominations that don't all agree with each other? Like what are the odds that they'll just kill each other because they can't agree? We've seen it before within Islam, with Sunni and Shia. I guess my point is, I keep seeing all the references to "the church" but there really isn't an established central flavor of christianity. Catholics vs Protestants, Baptists vs. Methodists, Pentacostals vs. Mormons.
Yeah...Iran. The fact that the faith is different, if you look at the mechanics of what it does in terms of institutional design and fealty to religious litmus tests, it's structurally pretty much what all the dispensationalist loons want. Or maybe one might select DPRK, as they've 'elected' Dear leader as a near mythological godhead (much as Trump wishes) and drive all policy from that.
Iran. Afghanistan under the Taliban. or most terrifying, a themed HOA.
Watch the Handmaid's Tale.
Handmaid's tale with more institutionalized rape.
It’s hard to say because as has been pointed out, there are many denominations. But I think, based on current trends in there US, you’d see the following. 1. Same sex marriage no longer recognized. 2. A flat out ban on abortion. 3. Christianity as the official religion. 4. The outlawing of pagan religions. 5. Anti-Blasphemy laws in entertainment. 6. Prayer before sporting events. 7. Porn ban 8. Bigger tax breaks for big families 9. Outlawing of interracial relationships (with exceptions*) 10. Creationism in school 11. Allowing discrimination in hiring based on religion and sexual orientation 12. Probably a ban on seven days a week businesses. Would probably make businesses pick a day of Sunday or Saturday closures. 13. Remove any allowances made for recreational marijuana. 14. Heavy regulation of social media. 15. Outlawing gambling at the federal level, so no more Vegas. 16. Enforcement of adultery criminalization. 17. Increase of parental authority. 18. Probably an increased use of the death penalty. 19. Probably an increase in police authority. 20. Public decency laws controlling outward dress of men and women. 21. End to no-fault divorce. Those, with the exceptions of 9, 18 and 19 are the ones based on religion. But considering modern trends, I don’t see that it wouldn’t just be right-wing and wouldn’t expand to right-wing territory like. Segregation, English as official language, increased military size, no privacy, lock down on immigration unless from Europe.
Iran but with Christianity
Robert Heinlein predicted it for us in "Revolt in 2100" excellent full sociological theory.
Well, that's going to heavily depend on which denomination of Christian. I don't think the fringe has thought that through yet. What if it is catholics that manage to pull that off ? Will they denounce all others as illegitimate and pull funding ? How about the Mormons? Or the seventh day Adventist denouncing Sunday worship ? Who's right ? Who's wrong ? Is it not best that everyone just fuck off to thier own and government not get involved ?
Vatican City is a theocratic government whose head of state is the Pope. As far as I know they are the only modern Christian theocracy (EDIT: I looked it up, and while not a sovereign nation like the Vatican is, Mount Athos is an autonomous area in Greece run as an Orthodox theocracy). There are a lot of Christian states (which is officially different than a theocracy... in a theocracy the church is literally in charge of the country, but a Christian state has some other form of ruler in charge). The list of modern Christian states are: Argentina, Armenia, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Denmark, Greenland, Faroe Islands, England, Georgia, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Malta, Monaco, Norway, Samoa, Serbia, Tonga, Tuvalu, and Zambia. Only one example of a full blown theocracy and its not entirely encouraging, but quite a few examples of Christian states that include some of the more liberal/progressive nations. So it is hard to say, it seems to be the government itself that matters, not the religion behind it.
It would look like any of the Islamic theocracies. That's why I can't figure out why industry backs the Republicans. Religious states generally go hand in hand with economic stagnation.
Tali-baptist.
Come to Poland and check. At some point they even wanted to declare Jesus an official king of Poland. Even tried to vote for this in parliament.
A Christian Theocracy or an Evangelical Theocracy which bizarrely picked up Catholic views on abortion and contraception and became super xenophobic which runs completely counter to the Good Samaritan and other teachings of Jesus.
Basically, it's the same thing, just in the name of Jesus instead of Allah.
Define Christian. Do you mean everyone who identifies as Christian? That would be such a diverse group that they could never agree on anything. Or do you mean a subgroup that agrees that everyone in the group are “real” Christians? Then you are talking about a very small group that would spend all of its time fighting with other groups to establish who the “real” Christians are.
Won't look much like the 21 century🤷
Noticed a lot of people pointing out Islamic theocracies. Maybe you should instead look at Russia. The church is basically a puppet of the state, while the state pushes fairly blatant religious laws like banning gay and trans people. Basically all the usual backwards conservative nonsense. But then there's the long term. Anyone with money, skill, education, or even a chance will flee. So many Russians moved into other Slavic countries to escape, just like so many other theocratic police states lose any skilled population to people leaving. Brain drain doesn't kill a country quickly, but it does kill it. It's taken the Soviet Union from a superpower to an economy built around digging up resources and selling them to liberal democracies because it can't keep skilled labor. Canada and Europe will boom because there'd be no where else for literate people to go. This is made worse by the fact that dictatorships don't tolerate dissent, and that includes those within the government itself. Look at Russia again, how its military readiness had crumbled, but no one was willing or able to point that out for fear of being punished. And now they've gotten into a war that is wrecking their economy, cutting them off from the world diplomatically, and destroying the stockpile of weapons built during the soviet years when they were at least more functional and not a kleptocracy. And they have nuclear weapons, so them imploding could go very bad very fast. That said, I doubt there's any serious chance of conservatives being able to pull this off. The officers in the military aren't going to support them. The majority of the population is still pissed over abortion. They have no chance of winning a civil war currently. Their only hope is to use legal manipulation to avoid democracy and even that would result in massive civil unrest that would threaten the economy. In the end, my money is on Trump losing do to moderates coming out of the woodwork to stop him again. Abortion laws pushing voters further from the republican party in legislative elections. Conservatives getting more detached from reality and losing more of their voter base to appeal to cultists. Or, if there is a merciful God out their somewhere, a bioengineering student will snap under the strain of constant existential threat and build a biological doomsday device that finally ends my suffering by driving us into extinction. Fingers crossed.
You know those countries where you have different flavors of Muslims fighting and killing each other over which is the true Islam? That’s what America would become.
Ireland in the mid to late 20th century. Essentially a Christian nationalist theocracy given the power of the Catholic Church there
Hollywood and music industry would be taken over. Only positive propaganda of state is allowed
It would fundamentally alter justice. Instead of taking a human centered approach to rehabilitate criminals it would take a harsh capital punishment approach we've long tried to get away from.
I predict that once they got rid of the people they don't like \[atheists, the trans community, the gay community, etc\], they would then start looking for others to hate and turn on themselves. "I don't think Joe is the right kind of christian. Might have to eliminate him." I can't picture them all getting along.
they would look probably much as they do today except with their heads are a little further up their asses .
why this question? curiosity?
Yes, because it's scary to not have a clear picture of what it may end up looking like. On a scale of Vatican City to Iran/Afghanistan, I'm curious how bad a theocracy we'd be expecting. In one case I can still have the option of moving out of the country more easily and rebuilding my life elsewhere. In another I'd be actively hunted down.
It would be just like midevil times but with more technology.
Given the variety of christian faiths I don't think it would look very different from now. There'd be different states and tiers of power and so forth. They'd hate each other as much then as they hate atheists now.
Google "Under the Banner of Heaven"
Look at Afghanistan since the Taliban took control...
North Korea (Jucheism). Enough said...
It looks like idolatry
The Vatican
Saudi Arabia comes to mind.
Not the 21st Century, but a modern European state, nestled uncomfortably in the bosom of the most rapacious empire one people ever inflicted on the world: Ireland, until about 1985. [https://www.amazon.com/Ireland-1912-1985-Politics-Joseph-Lee/dp/0521377412](https://www.amazon.com/Ireland-1912-1985-Politics-Joseph-Lee/dp/0521377412)
Bro I spent an hour typing out a response and now I'm getting a "empty response from endpoint" message :( Edit: will try breaking it up
My knee jerk reaction is to say "handmaids tale" but realistically it probably won't be like that. Not in the first decade of it coming to fruition anyway. I think the best place for us to look is actually Utah. I've heard a lot about Utah, and to be fair to anyone who disagrees with me, Utah has a way deeper history with the LDS Church as a united societal force. However, they're still good to look at because apparently the situation there is that while the LDS Church does not directly govern anything, but LDS run the highest levels of Utahn society. And it's not that they don't allow Non-LDS to run for political office, but it's probably more like since the majority of Utah is LDS, a non-LDS person running for office in Utah is not likely to be taken seriously. Actually, we're not very far off when you look at the political situation in the US. Polling shows that most Americans naturally distrust atheists disproportionately, not just for positions like political office, but for daily life. We already struggle to get the political campaigns of non-Christians to be taken seriously, and it's more of an uphill battle for total atheists.
Yeah it's a little more complicated given the US is split several ways between Protestants, Methodists, Baptist, Catholics, Mormons and many more. Although many Americans who are in different sects no longer have as much loyalty to their sects. You don't tend to see people identify as "Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Orthodox, Catholic". Now it more often tends to be just "Christian". Catholics are an occasional exception because of the sheer size of American Catholics, and many a protestant beleive Catholics to be heretics in some light, but I at least know when I ask people like my mother, she says she's Catholic, but actively prefers Baptist, non-denominational(often just Baptists in denial), and she's also invited over LDS missionaries occasionally. She doesn't have the...mental faculties to identify the theological disagreements of these churches. Heck, she doesn't even care. The way she sees it they all believe in God, and so are credible. I had left Christianity and declared as much to my family, but some years later I became a Baha'i and my mother sees it as me "returning to God" despite me literally not being a Christian still, moreso a liberal theist.
And I think that's the problem with Christian culture in the past years. As people have left churches and it's no longer become reasonable to assume any given person was a Christian of some kind, it's become standard to identify one's self as simply "Christian". There's also a separate trend of how less people have invested into the study of theology, the people that haven't actively left Christianity or haven't given their religion any more thought than societal-pressure-induced church attendance have focused more and more on the "interesting" parts of Christianity, so you miss the nuances in the theological debate and the slow death of nerdy theology. With this convergence of church culture, people (in America anyway) are abandoning their sectarianism, you see this in the current push for Christian Nationalism, Christians are largely disinterested in sectarianism and for now are pursuing a united front against the perceived "invasion" of non-Christians and the "godlessness" of many liberals and progressives. I've seen many of those nerdy theology accounts that might poke at other sects for their different practices and beliefs, but they're ALWAYS united on Christianity as a whole taking over.
So really, I think that earlier on we will see the Utahnization of the USA, but instead of one church taking over, it'll probably be a coalition of several different churches, existing ones or newly emerging ones like the one u/redeemedzoomer is riding. At first that coalition of churches will be soft, but as control for the government hardens I think the alliance will become official. As far as political parties go, Democrats while not theocratic in the scenario of a theocratic USA would have to adapt to some religious views to be capable of winning elections without atheists becoming a majority by 2030. (We're not on track for that until like the 2070s, assuming current trends stick) Realistically the divide goes that Republicans cater to all Protestants, Mormons and 75% of Catholics, of those 40% white catholics, and 60% Latino Catholics. I'm assuming the other 25% of Catholics will be drawn to the Democratic Party just because of the focus on economic issues. And the Democratics will likely be drawn even farther right by conservatives like Biden and Manchin who seek compromise with christofascists. Still not as far right as the Republicans, not at all, but I think if we go down the theocratic "republic" path, then the Democrats will stop advocating for non-Christians as heavily, whether if they're trying to win over religious voters or if they're being commanded to by a religious elite.
By the middle point where America is somewhere in between Utah and Gilead, American society would probably be like a mix of South Korea's traditionalism, Hungary's economy(but sized up to scale obviously), and Russian social policy. I add South Korea's traditionalism because the traditional expectations of South Korea's society have wreaked havoc on the youth. South Korea particular has high suicide rates that I think will skyrocket under an American Theocracy, likely from LGBT+ people or women in general. I say our economy would be like Hungary's because I suspect we'd lose a few trade partners but the economy might become more collectivist and would actually improve from what it is right now. But take that with a grain of salt, because I promise those gains will come from the theocratic USA taking the Chinese strategy of having the people surrender their freedoms in return for economic prosperity. It will suceed in the first few years, but by the next big economic crash, it would be too late for the citizens of the USA.
By the time we're 2/3s Gilead I think we'll not all of it, but we'd see substantial portions of the Internet blocked for reason of "degenerate content." This would certainly encompass porn and LGBT+ subjects, but also likely reproductive health topics, forums for dissent, VPN sites, possibly even certain Wikipedia entries, or academic analysis of theology that's not Christianity affirming. The big issue getting past 2/3s Gilead stage is Christian sectarianism. For the US to fall in line with one church, we need to see more American Christians alienated with their current churches or simply not care about their sectarianism at all. It'll happen with American Protestants possibly as soon as 2030. But the merging of Catholics and Protestants will be difficult. I think the likely outcome is we get something like the Presbyterian Church, with an slight Catholic flair. And as I said previously, we are seeing some convergence in American Christians, but it would take at minimum until 2070 for the lines to be blurred enough that one unified church could take power in the USA without the disapproval of other sects. For us to get to the end of the 21st century with a still Christian America, Gen X and/or other generations would need to be convinced. Gen Z I don't think a majority of us will, but people claim Gen Alpha might be more conservative, possibly as a backlash to Gen Z's progressivism. But I have doubts about this, as there's an interesting trend of political polarization being pretty interestingly drawn against gender lines. Gen Z women are very progressive, but Gen Z men are becoming increasingly conservative, on average. Doesn't help that Gen Z consider political affiliation to be very important in dating.
This'll probably be a problem because you know, no dating means no marriage, no babies, no families to spread and instill ideas, good or bad. But the likely outcome from this is that Christian men and women are the main ones having family, with the excess of Christian men being the most rabid soldiers and officers, the type of people who might be shooting at dissenters, executing prisoners and such. And I think we will see a kind of feedback loop with the afforementioned problem of LGBT+ suicides increasing in a theocratic USA. We already have Christians pumping out rhetoric that LGBT+ people are "sick" or using the fact of LGBT+ suicides already being higher than average to label being LGBT+ itself a mental illness. Then the groomer rhetoric. I think a American theocracy doubles down on the groomer rhetoric and this pushes people to the point of sending LGBT+ people to facilities, either for conversion therapy, turning them into eunuchs in some cases, or "eradication". Now controversially, I think 3/4s Gilead is as far as we'll get without a revolution against the government, within the 21st century. But it's still terrifying. I'm not even an atheist anymore, I've since become a Bahá'í. Yet I will not take a Christian America as a victory for God, but rather a threat both to humans, the world, and the study and practice of genuine religion. Of course there's always the possibility the Amish just take over the nation by the 23rd century, I don't know, I'm not a sociologist, although I am a history major. Sorry for the immense yapping. And I'm open to criticism. Edit: one more thing I realized I left out! I KNOW that the death of nerdy theology is the main reason for Christianity losing credibility, because there's a simple story in the Bible that discredits the ENTIRE Christian Nationalist movement in the USA and parallel movements all over the world. I encourage y'all to use this as a rebuttal to any Christian Nationalists you meet. Jesus fasted in the desert for 40 days, right? And Satan came to Jesus, offering Jesus control of the entire world. And Jesus refused. You know why? Because Christians are to believe that Jesus is God, and the world is God's, so Jesus already had rightful control of the world, and Satan was offering Jesus something that was already his. Certainly not them, and still not in the moment but eventually Christians believe "every knee will bow", but the caveat here is that it is to be by people accepting the beleif into their hearts, not by it being forced unto people.
Look up the crusades
Salem, Massachusetts.
They have been trying to stuff Christianity, or their version of it, down our throats for decades now. People are not going to change just because they want them to. You would have to drastically violate the Constitution to do that and people are not going to just go along. Try as you might, you can't legislate morality. They might try but it's not going to work. Never has, never will.
No, but you can still pass laws enforcing a particular morality and make lives miserable for all who cannot or will not conform, even to the point of taking away their freedom or even life.
The vatican?
Handmaid's tale
Well, since those states have the highest homicide rates, worst crime, worst poverty, worst education….probably not good.
Vatican City is a theocratic absolute monarchy.
Have you watched or read The Handmaid’s Tale . Yeah, kinda like that.
Kansas
Tyrrany
The example Project 2025 is emulating is 1930's Germany.
Afghanistan
Uganda might be the closest thing. I'm not too worried about America becoming a fascist theocracy. Most conservative religious people and polticians do not want that. Most of the political change is cosmetic for election optics and not too disruptive. And the abortion issue will get sorted out on its own and is just an in-between phase that everyone saw coming, even RBG. It needs to be federally codified, and that was never going to happen as long as we were basing laws on an outdated court decision. It's just a blip in time as the pendulum swings away from the strong liberalism that affected the US for a few years. It will repeat the cycle and swing back the other direction like it always does. Alarm is okay. But I don't see any reason to predict imminent doom.
Scientology kind of comes to mind.
Texas, it would look like Texas. The one atar state.
Its about a Christian theocracy in the US - terrifying https://m.imdb.com/title/tt5834204/episodes/
The taliban but with crosses. Uganda is probably the closest modern state with it's anti gay laws even if the convict wins ( lets hope not) there won't be a federal theocracy, but they will likely some states that go that will keep going that way, but even in deep red states abortion bans are unpopular and have failed referdums Downvote dodo 🦤 mad
People comparing a theoretical Christian theocracy with ISIS, Afghanistan and Saudi-Arabia is really fucked up and tells a lot about historical knowledge. Especially, since there actually is a real Christian theocracy, which is pretty tame: The Vatican. Until the French Revolution, the Church(es) held a lot of power in all European countries. Hell, there were actual, real Christian theocracies around until 1806 in the Holy Roman Empire! Non, absolutely none of those committed atrocities compared to ISIS, or had horrific laws like Saudi-Arabia! Christian law does not demand to stone adulterers! Neither does Christian law demand to throw homosexuals off roofs (there were harsh penalties for "fornication" though). And Christian law certainly doesn't consider a rape victim an adulterer (adulteress, I probably should say), and therefore to be executed. If the Pope just reestablished his domain over Italy, things would just revert to the 1950s. Or maybe 1900. Not a nice place to be, but better than Afghanistan by far. Like, not even comparable. But obviously you don't need a theocracy for that, just vote for right-wing nutters. Some crazy Evangelicals in the US bible belt or some deluded Christians in Africa taking over would be much worse, obviously. But a woman still probably wouldn't have to fear her head being bashed in, because she got raped.